May 7, 2025 • 36 mins
In this eye-opening episode of Fast Casual Nation, hosts Paul Barron and Cherryh Cansler sit down with Mark Lohmann, CEO of the rapidly growing chicken concept Birdcall. Discover how this 15-unit brand is disrupting the competitive chicken sandwich space with its award-winning food, proprietary "Poncho" technology system, and strategic growth approach. Lohmann shares valuable insights on balancing big-brand experience with startup agility, achieving $2.5M AUVs while maintaining hospitality excellence, and their recent expansion into iconic venues like Red Rocks Amphitheatre. Whether you're a restaurant operator, franchise investor, or industry enthusiast, this conversation reveals the recipe behind Birdcall's success and their vision for smart growth in the fast casual landscape.
FastCasualInnovation #ChickenSandwichWars #RestaurantTech
Get Your Podcast Now! Are you a hospitality or restaurant industry leader looking to amplify your voice and establish yourself as a thought leader? Look no further than SavorFM, the premier podcast platform designed exclusively for hospitality visionaries like you. Take the next step in your industry leadership journey – visit https://www.savor.fm/
Capital & Advisory: Are you a fast-casual restaurant startup or a technology innovator in the food service industry? Don't miss out on the opportunity to tap into decades of expertise. Reach out to Savor Capital & Advisory now to explore how their seasoned professionals can propel your business forward. Discover if you're eligible to leverage our unparalleled knowledge in food service branding and technology and take your venture to new heights.
Don't wait – amplify your voice or supercharge your startup's growth today with Savor's ecosystem of industry-leading platforms and advisory services. Visit https://www.savor.fm/capital-advisory
FastCasualInnovation #ChickenSandwichWars #RestaurantTech
Get Your Podcast Now! Are you a hospitality or restaurant industry leader looking to amplify your voice and establish yourself as a thought leader? Look no further than SavorFM, the premier podcast platform designed exclusively for hospitality visionaries like you. Take the next step in your industry leadership journey – visit https://www.savor.fm/
Capital & Advisory: Are you a fast-casual restaurant startup or a technology innovator in the food service industry? Don't miss out on the opportunity to tap into decades of expertise. Reach out to Savor Capital & Advisory now to explore how their seasoned professionals can propel your business forward. Discover if you're eligible to leverage our unparalleled knowledge in food service branding and technology and take your venture to new heights.
Don't wait – amplify your voice or supercharge your startup's growth today with Savor's ecosystem of industry-leading platforms and advisory services. Visit https://www.savor.fm/capital-advisory
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Fastcasling Fast Casual Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
The podcast that started it all.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You know, I always have to rehearse those intros like that,
share I get.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It, I'm doing great, doing great, happy to be here
as usual.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
My editor would say, Paul, redo that, and I'll say, no, man,
that's the whole beauty of a podcast is you got
to go with what what is natural to make it work. Listen,
we got a lot of news to talk about. I
know you just dropped a big story, so I want
to share that. And first of all, big news on
the front. When it comes to Starbucks, they just drop
(00:40):
their earnings report, they bring up your story, which, by
the way, if you guys are not an email member
of Fastcasual dot com, you should be very easy. Just
go over to Fast Casual subscribe. You guys are going
to be able to get news like this all the time.
But anyway, you've got, of course, the CEO of star
Bucks now saying we missed but despite that, we think
(01:04):
we're on a turn from baby.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
I don't know, I don't know, it's it's you know,
a ten cent loss, but I mean they The CFO
also was on the call yesterday and they both maintained
that they're you know, they're back to Starbucks initiative is
working where they're making you know, stores more welcoming and
speeding up customer experience and all that. They talked about
(01:30):
how it's not great here but China and Canada are
seeing better results. So and they're well, they're also rolling
out that back to Starbucks initiatives. So they seem like,
you know, it's positive, but you know, you never know
is it is it just a CEO talk or is
it is it the real deal? I guess we'll see
next quarter, but.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I think that this is you know, when you look
at the challenge that Brian Nickel went into, which timing was,
I think everything, because you're now looking at a lot
more pressure potentially on the consumer. You know, if we
do see an uptick in inflation this next report. We've
got the FOMC meeting next week from the Fed that'll
(02:10):
probably set a little bit of a dictate a little
bit of the macro environment, which will be interesting because
the number of CEOs that I've talked to, they are
concerned that we are seeing a lot more pressure on consumers.
Consumer credit is ridiculous. So now we're dealing with people
who are not using their credit cards as much, which
is cutting into sales and foot traffic into the restaurant space.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I interviewed.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
We did a spree last week for a survey, and
we mainly because as you know, we're doing some investment rounds,
but we did twenty two calls with emerging brands, and
the sentiment of those twenty two CEOs I was kind
of scoring because I had a very specific set of questions.
I was asking, all, we're expecting a downturn in a
(02:56):
very slow summer, so this may not look good for
Starbucks coming up.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
We'll see and and we uh, you know, we reported
a story of blog yesterday by placer Ai talking about,
you know, some of the customers are trading down Starbucks
and going to some of the cheaper brands like Duncan
and some of the more regents.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
You can may end up doing well on this as
well as with McDonald's. McDonald's stock price has just been holding,
Chipotle sliding a little bit, what not that we should
get into, you know, publicly traded companies today. Because we're
talking about emerging brands, it is going to be a
rock star episode with the CEO of bird Call coming on,
(03:35):
so stand by. My name is Paul Baron. As the
(03:59):
early pioneer fast casual, I've seen the industry evolve from
just a few operators to the most sought after segment
by consumers around the world. Now we're planning to shape
its future. Tap into decades of my expertise identifying the
emerging brands and tech winners in the space saber capital.
(04:20):
We'll be fueling the next generation of fast casual innovation.
All right, we're back here on Fast Casual Nation, the
podcast that started it all.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Today, we are.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Going to have an emerging brand come on, and it's
one that of all the restaurants I've been to, haven't
been to this one? Sarah, have you been to one
of these yet?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I have not been to bird Call. I'm in Kansas City,
so we haven't had it. But I wrote a story
this week about bird Call making their debut at Red Rocks,
and I will be making my personal debut at Red
Rocks this summer to see most of the suns. Yeah,
so I will be killing two birds pun intended with
one stone when I get to try bird Call and
(05:01):
see one of my favorite bands at Red Rocks, which.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I've never got.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, we've got Mark Lohman, who is the CEO of
bird Call, coming on the show. Mark, how are you
welcome in?
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I am doing well, Thank you guys for having me on.
Really appreciate it and incredibly excited to hear that you'll
be checking out bird Call at Mumford this summer. That
is fantastic and I'm sure we'll talk about it. We
could not be more excited to have bird Call at
Red Rocks. We just think it's we just think it's
exciting for so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, the good thing is is when you look at
emerging brands like bird Call, and there are so many
new brands that are really starting to make their mark
in the industry, which for fast casual I think is great.
Tell us a little bit about where you guys are
in terms of unit size, overall growth, all that good stuff.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Yeah. So we actually the opening of Red Rocks was
last week. We time things poorly and actually opened two
restaurants last week, which you don't really want to do,
but you know, sometimes that's how things work out out.
And so of those two restaurants, we now have fifteen restaurants,
and that's across Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Ok.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I think very fair to expect that we'll see more
of those coming pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So you guys are on the move fast. What's twenty
twenty five look like for you in terms of additional openings.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
So we do have two more company owned corporate restaurants
that are going to open in twenty twenty five. I
would say on the exciting news front, we did file
our first FDD last year, and so we are headed
down the path of franchising as well. So I think
twenty twenty five is seeing excited. Obviously, we've already opened three
and have two more coming. But twenty twenty six where
(06:38):
is where we really think we'll see that inflection point
as we start to add franchisees and openings really across
across the United States.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So you think twenty twenty six is the year that
you'll get your first franchise open.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That's exactly right. Well, we certainly will. I mean we're not.
I don't think we're at the point to start announcing
who those partners are going to be. But yeah, I
think we can say with pretty strong comp and we'll
see a number of them start opening across you know,
like I said, across the United States next year. Could
not be more excited about it either.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Do you guys have a.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
People line up on menu for sure? Is that something
that you think the franchisees attract to, is they're they're
looking at the menu lineup and seeing that that's kind
of one of those that just is attracted to, you know,
the modern day consumer.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think I would say it's
a combination things. I mean, look at the restaurant business,
you got to start with the menu that you know,
the food's kind of important. So certainly I think the
menu is important, and we know we are I guess
this this kind of counts as a plug or whatever.
We did just win best Chicken Sandwich in Denver for
the fourth time in five years, so the menu is
pretty darn good. But I think it's I think I
(07:43):
do think it's also just more than that we're talking
The franchisees we're talking to are all experiencing the industry
and multi unit franchisees they've they've done this before, and
so it's not just menu. I think it's also just
positioning in terms of being fast casual and being a
little elevated versus the other brands out there. And then
it's also just you know, the technology aspects and what
(08:05):
we believe is how the consumer is evolving and our
differentiation on the bird call side to help be part
of that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, how do you go about winning a best chicken category?
Because that's a pretty heated market space, right It used
to be the best burger category. Yep, now chicken sandwiches.
There's so many brands out there. This is pretty tough.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Well it is, But I guess I'll preface and say basically,
we cheat, and the cheating is well, but the cheating
is our chef has three Michelin stars to his name,
and so I can take no credit for it at
all other than, like I said, we got a chef
who's pretty darn good at this, done this at some
pretty pretty high end restaurants, is now doing it for
(08:46):
a high end fast casual restaurant brand.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
How do you attract a chef like that to come
to leave the fine dining and come to fast casual.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Well, I hate to say it, but I think it
kind of is. We're we're in a part of the
world or of the sector part of the industry. I
guess that really is hot. I mean if you look
at fast casual and chicken, I mean, yes, it's been
hot for a few years. I think it continues to
be hot. Like you guys just said, I mean, it's
a very competitive space already, but it's also a space
(09:15):
that the people are still excited about. I don't think
there's any reason for us to look at this and
believe that that excitement or the momentum in the chicken
sandwich or the fried chicken or just broader chicken space
is going to change anytime soon. So you know, it's
the type of place I think a lot of people
want to be, and it's a battle that a lot
of people are excited about being part of.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Why do you think that you guys have been able
to kind of crack the code here because you look
at some of this is and I know, Sharon and
I we've been in this space for a while. We've
seen the rise and fall of these segments. Yeah, pizza
was the one that I think is relative. Then you
go in and you see the competition brewing up right
now in the chicken space. What do you guys think
(09:56):
you bring to the table that will set you apart
and maybe rise you out of the frame.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, and I'll depart from the food piece because obviously
that's important. But I will tell you I think there's
two things that we do that's pretty pretty different from
anyone else that allows us to be differentiated. One is, uh,
when you come to a bird Call, it'll be a
little bit different at Red Rocks, to be clear, shah.
But but but when you come through a bird Call,
I will tell you one of our founders is the
(10:23):
best restaurant designer I've ever met in my career. And
so you typically we do have drive throughs in a
number of our locations, but even with the drive through,
people come inside, and that's because the ambiance, the environment,
it's it's just pretty cool. I'm not cool, but the
environment is cool. And as I mentioned, his design and
his name's Peter Newle, and he's just it's incredible. And
(10:45):
so one is well, I think a lot of a
lot of restaurants, not just chicken restaurants, but a lot
of restaurants miss on on just the environment and the
hospitality that you get when you come into restaurants. And
then the other piece is the technology you focus that
we have at bird Call. We have our entire technology system,
which we call Poncho, one hundred percent proprietary. So when
you walk into bird Call, everything the guest sees, everything
(11:08):
the employee sees that is something we built. We have
a technology. We have engineers sitting right over there that
built this technology for us, and it allows us to
guide the guest experience in a way that no one
else has been able to do yet.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
What made you decide to go that route instead of,
you know, going with some of the other major partners
that a lot of the restaurants use, because that's that
could be scary.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
Oh for sure. And it I mean when I joined,
so I've been at bird Call now about two and
a half years, and it, I mean, you nailed It.
Was one of the very first conversations we had, is
you know, is this the right decision for us from
a technology standpoint, because it is, you use the right word.
It is kind of scary, right, I mean, you're putting
a lot of eggs in a basket and you're saying,
(11:50):
we can just we can be a restaurant, but we
can also be a technology company. And so the answer
is we started looking at what are some of the
options out there. I just come from the private equit
side and let an RFP for a large brand that
we own there. So I talked to a lot of
the you know, the point of sale companies that we've
just spoken to, and the reality was we couldn't quite
(12:11):
get all the way there. We're doing enough things that
are unique and different that we couldn't replace at one
to one and that felt like two things. One feels
like we're probably doing something interesting that we should keep doing.
And two, if we are differentiated, it's probably the type
of thing that we want to keep as a differentiation
point for Bird Call and for Poncho as we start
to license that to other restaurant companies as well.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Can you give an example, just like what you couldn't
find in another stack that you had to create on
your own.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
I'll give you two quick, two examples. I promised he'll
be quick. One is, and I hate to say, you
won't see this at Red Rocks because again non traditional,
a little bit different. But when you walk into any
of our other restaurants, when you place your order, there's
this what we call the Q screen, and it's just
I mean, you've kind of seen a version of it before,
but it is a countdown of your order is going
(13:01):
to be ready in six minutes and twenty seconds or
five forty five seconds, and it will count it down
and tell you when that order is ready. The second piece,
and it's just done really a really cool way. The
second piece, And I'll kind of tie this to the
kitchen to play system, which I believe the Poncho kitchen
display system is it's the best one I've ever seen
in the industry. But a specific example of that is
(13:24):
when you place your order, your guest information is transmitted
to the kitchen. So let's say you came in last week,
you had a bad experience that's given to the team
members like Heally cow that you know, you know, Nancy
came in and gave us one star. We obviously hate that,
but then that allows us to then, you know, do
guest recovery right there in the moment with thank you
(13:46):
for coming back in. You know, really appreciate you giving
us a second chance, and we'll give you a free cookie,
a free drink, whatever it may be to help recover
that guest and ensure that your experience today beats the
heck out of the one you had last week.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, have you seen that shrion? Have you seen anybody
do that?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
I have not seen this, not that it like completely
talks to the kitchen back there as.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well in where it's macro driven. I mean you're getting
it in by the guest. I've seen it. You know
where you see leverage on sentiment, consumer sentiment. Okay, we
got to pick this up on this particular menu item,
but not necessarily by the guests. So Mark, you mentioned
licensing this to other brands.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You know, I thought that was a breaking news that
you kind of snuck in.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
There's that new, relatively new. Yes, we've got two partners
that are pretty excited about one one fast casual brand
here in Denver and one in Dallas that will launch
with Poncho as their point of sale later this year.
But I guess back to the to the point you
guys are making. It's why I've I'm sure I've glossed
over it too much as I was talking earlier, But
(14:46):
hospitality for us is just so important. Yeah, and you
know it's just the chicken sandwiches are great, the salads
are great, so on and so forth. But if you
don't have a good experience at a restaurant. We just
foundationally believe that it's it's the food's not going to
be as good, and so this is the type of
thing that allows us to Yeah, I guess if you
get an email from the you know, from the brand
(15:07):
for guest recovery, that's good. But we'd rather come out
and personally say, hey, sorry about what happened last time.
We're here to make it right, and we're here to
sure you you become a you know, a fan of
the bird Call brand.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, I'm looking at your TikTok channel. You guys do
a pretty good job right there, just on the sense
of how you're really connecting to the audience in a
unique way, which you know, the consumer set, which I
think gets back to the point you're making, which is
this whole macro connection in hospitality which is driving that forward.
I'm so glad to hear you talk about that because
(15:42):
that has been the one sentiment score that has not
recovered post the pandemic. I mean, we saw food and
almost all segments of the restaurant industry pick up, but
hospitality from a consumer standpoints has continued to decline. Yeah,
so that that's good that you guys are doing focused
(16:03):
on it well.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
And we're all seeing that. Right. Every one of us
goes to a restaurant and the experience we have is
just not not what we'd like it to be. And
it again, it's just it's part of what we believe
to be part of the bird called differentiation because it
is so critical and and I mean bird calling nutshell
is basically a lot of people can deliver a great
fried chicken sandwich. I mean it's and we happen to
(16:24):
think ours, you know, are better, But a lot of
people can do that. But it really does have to
be that entire experience you have. And there are moments
that you know, all of us want to go out
to eat and want to have a great meal, but
we've only got forty five minutes or thirty minutes versus
the hour and a half you need for a full
service dying occasion. And so that's that's the need that
bird Call is aiming to meet. I mean, you can
(16:46):
come in still have that same great experience, still that
same great food. Yeah, it's casual environment, not full service,
but you you've got time to get to the movie
or the play or the sporting event, whatever it may
be that's coming up, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Let's talk about leadership.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Let's kind of break into that area because you bring
big brand expertise coming in from some of the best
big brands out there. Obviously your time at Kidoba was
with the one where I recognize you from when you
look at being able to translate big brand leadership into
an emerging brand, because that's that's probably I think the
(17:20):
missing link for emerging brands. A lot of times it's
startups that have not gone through the fire. You know,
they haven't seen the really tough times yet, and executives
are born i think in those tough times. So you've
obviously dealt with that. What have you been able to
translate over to a startup concept? Like Bird Call from
(17:43):
your history.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Man, that's that's really well said, Paul, because you're spot on.
I mean, really, you've got to go through the fire.
I mean, that's that's just that's that's really well said.
And I would say it's it's also a bit of
a balance too, because i mean Bird calls a startup,
as we've already talked about, I mean, we are emerging brand.
So there are elements a big brand that we don't
want to have at Bird call. You know, we can't
(18:04):
be slow, we can't be siloed. I mean, we're a
small team. If something needs to get done. I mean
I've been at Red Rocks serving chicken sandwiches. You know,
that's anament. That's the way it should.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You just do that because it's fun, right you can
you can come to see me at Montard and you've
been give me my own chicken sandwich from the CEO
of there.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Then they're at the trash Cannis. You should there are
There are worse venues to serve fried chicken sandwiches. But so,
I mean you do want to bring I mean, we
do want to have the processes and procedures to some extent,
because if we're going to franchise, and we're talking to
folks that you know, have franchised before and are doing
it with very legitimate brands, which Bird Clothes as well,
(18:52):
you've got to have a certain, uh, you know, a
certain approach that they're going to recognize that they're going
to appreciate and they're going to note that they're going
to support it as going to be supported as they
grow the Bird brand. Right at the same time, I
mean you want to have that startup culture though, just
we got to get it done. We got to go
out and it doesn't matter who it is there. You know,
here's the battle of the day. We've got to go
(19:14):
out and make sure that we that we win. And
I would say, you know, back to your to your point,
I mean we all experienced COVID. I mean, I think
that was a great learning experience or whatever you'd like
to call it for many of us. But you've got
to have those setbacks because one of the things in
any emerging brand, I mean, if when you're a large brand,
(19:34):
you know, Church is checking is the brand that that
the biggest, the brand I was most associated with prior
to joining to joining Bird Call, which we purchased when
I was a high bluff, right when when you know,
when you're at a large brand, you got fifteen hundred restaurants,
and you'd start looking at sales just as an example,
you you rarely look at individual restaurants because the overall
average just kind of hides the good and the bad,
(19:56):
which is fine, but a man, if you've got fifteen restaurants,
I mean, you're talking about the results from a single
restaurant and you've got exactly you know, from a leadership standpoint,
you've also got to make sure that you know, I mean,
holy cal sales were terrible yesterday. Well you know, one
restaurant was closed because of a gas or leak or whatever.
I mean, you've got to help, you know, moderate the team,
(20:17):
to help ensure that everyone's still focused on the overall goal,
because you are going to have the us and downs
much more so in an emerging brand than you would
at a larger brand.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
One thing you said, though, I think that a lot
of operators are failing to understand is this connection when
a big brand leader comes into an emerging brand. You
mentioned siloed, and that is usually a you know, it's
a death nail in many cases. And I talked to
so many brand startups that are trying to create systems that,
(20:50):
you know, because they want to be a big brand someday,
so they think they have to create these systems and
they end up falling into these traps of building a
big brand and you know, mentality in a small brand
startup and it ends up hitting a wall at some
point because it doesn't build culture. Is that what you
think is happening at Burkhall.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Uh, the experience what you just described, I would say, uh,
we've so first of all, we're very focused on avoiding
you know, the perils and the pitfalls you just described.
I would say, you know, part of it from our standpoint,
it's you know, hiring is incredibly important. We you know,
I've made a couple of missteps already that that we've
had to had to resolve just in terms of there
(21:33):
are folks that fit really well in big brands, that's great,
and there are you know, there are folks that would
would rather be in an emerging brand and that and that's
great as well, and we need and we need to
have that type of approach. Here. One thing we did
recently and you know, boy, I should have done this sooner,
is our leadership team here at bird Call or leadership
team meeting is every corporate employee. I mean, that really
(21:53):
is the leadership. I mean we're small enough, we can
all fit in the same room. We don't you know,
communication needs to be you know among everyone. Yeah, all
we're all trying to reach the same objective. There's you know,
there's not really secrets that we're trying to keep from anyone.
But if you if you do have silos, and if
you do have you know, long, you know, hot big
(22:13):
spans and you know someone needs to communicate to someone
else and all of that, it just it just leads
to the belief that, well, all the stuff's happening and
I'm not part of it or whatever, and we just
we just don't need that in a small brand line, right,
Let's just knock it out in one room and go
out and you know, get on with it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, it does help you get to a point where
you can scale. And because if you can scale with
a core team and you can keep those principles, you know,
in the position where the brand is still growing at
that kind of that startup mentality. I've done this with
many businesses where you know, startup is really the phase
I enjoy, and once it gets so big, you start
(22:54):
to lose that kind of soul of the brand itself.
So I wonder do you think Mark that we're going
to see more fast casual concepts that are maybe I mean,
I know you're franchising, but more focused on regional, slow
growth but high quality, high volume restaurants.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
What are your thoughts I that would be if I
had to place a bet. That would be the bet
I would place, and to some extent, it is the
growth approach we are taking, which is, look, look, everyone
wants to grow to one thousand units or whatever. But
I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done
the opposite of well, and so we don't. We don't
(23:38):
call it. We don't. We don't ever talk about on
the bird call side. We don't talk about it in
terms of rapid growth. We talk about in terms of
smart growth. Yeah, and hopefully that leads to rapid growth
at some point in time. But I'd much rather open
one restaurant in twenty twenty six it's just a killer restaurant,
great real estate with the right franchise partner or whatever
it may be, than ten restaurants, and then in twenty
(23:59):
twenty seven we got a close three of them or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
So when you franchise, are you sticking to your region
for now, like the Colorado region around there, or are
you kind of going everywhere?
Speaker 5 (24:10):
I wouldn't call it everywhere yet, just because I guess
continuing that, you know what I was mentioning, there are
there are perils with going everywhere, just I mean not
you know starting I guess just with supply chain. So
right now the focus has really been Western US. So
we're already in Texas, Arizona, Las Vegas, specific Northwest, a
(24:31):
few a few areas beyond that, but nothing east of
the mississipp yet, which which isn't to say we're not
going to go there at some point, but you know,
opening one restaurant in Florida or North Carolina, you know,
that's that's kind of tough, just for a lot of reasons.
And so we'd rather, at least for now, build that
density in the western US and expand from there.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, great photography too on this. I'm looking at the
you know, obviously the Tots that you can sandwich. You
guys have got a good drink lineup mark when you
look at AUV and I talked to I won't say
the brand, but there's been some other chicken brands out
there that are claiming some pretty crazy numbers, you know,
(25:12):
in excess of three million a store. And what do
you think of fast Cat? First of all, how big
are you? How big are your units?
Speaker 5 (25:21):
We've got We've got a wide range just from kind
of when we started initially. We've got some smaller ones.
We've got a couple of bigger ones. But going forward,
the right way to think about it's about twenty three
hundred square feet.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Twenty three hundred okay, so within a twenty three hundred
square foot space, if you get the right real estate,
you get the right team in there. I mean, what
do you think is the potential for Chicken brands like
you guys in terms of where's the where's the ceiling
on AUV? How much could you turn if everything was right?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Yeah, well it's a great question because I'm going to
add a piece to it because how much could we
turn and also deliver a great guest experience?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Sure? Because again that's that's just so important to us.
And so you know, today we're sitting about two and
a half million dollar AUVs for existing restaurants, So we
feel very good there. That's certainly not the cap. I mean,
we can get well above three and you know, call
it three to four million dollar AUVs and work line,
we're delivering that great guest experience. But I mean, look,
I mean we all look at some of the brands
(26:19):
out there doing way above that, and we're a long
way from there. They've they've built fantastic brands, and you know,
good for them, and hopefully someday we'll get there. But
I mean, realistically, we wouldn't be able to deliver an
eight million dollar AUV out of a twenty three hundred
square foot space and deliver the guest experience we want
to have.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
That would be that that's on I just cannot put
my head around that share when I think eight million
out of one unit like that, the potential, I think
the key is is when you have the right menu mix,
you've got the right flow through in terms of speed
to the guest, which I thought what you were talking
about in terms of your tech giving the almost reverse countdown.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Consumers love that, like where's my order?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, they love it on Amazon it's like five
stops away, you know, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Customer service really great.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
Well, it's funny because that piece that Q screen I
mentioned I very much when I when I started at
bird Call, I very much diminished that and it was
a type of thing that I looked at like, oh
that's kind of cool, you know, great.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I bet people actually love the love that.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Yeah, people love it. I mean you it's it is
like I said, I I diminished it, I shouldn't have
it is it is cool. People like it. It is
the type of thing that people find differentiating for vertical
so so great.
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Speaker 1 (29:15):
All right, let's get into our last segment of the
show today, and that is future trends. Obviously, the category
of chicken is so hot right now. In some cases,
Sharon and I talk about this all the time. We
think it's overheated. There's so many brands. Yeah, how do
you think you guys will separate? And where do you
(29:35):
think this is going in the next few years?
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Well, you nailed it out of the gate. There's just
a ton of brands, and I think feels like more
entering every day. To some extent, I think whether we're
in an economic downturn now or whether we you know,
hit one the coming years. I think, you know, some
of them just from a sales amplitude standpoint, they just
don't have the volumes to survive. Yeah, so I think
(29:58):
we'll all I think it's fair to expect we'll see
some that just won't make it with sphinx. I mean,
you hate you as someone who's been in the industry
a while, you hate to see it, but but I
think it probably is a logical outcome, you know, for
better or worse. I guess I do expect we probably
see some of that, which is why you know, I
(30:19):
think any brand that's being smart about about growth will
probably do fine. What I mean by that is, I
mean so many say it, but I mean the most
important aspects of opening a new restaurant, the top three
or real estate, real estate and real estate, and so
you know, if you if you get the right if
you get the right location, the right least terms, you
got the right brand. Uh. Yeah, we may get punched
(30:40):
in the face a little bit over the whether it's
this year, next year, whenever, we'll survive and and those
that don't prepare in the right way probably you know,
probably suffer more than others unfortunately. So what is the.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Real estate for you guys?
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Is it in.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Is?
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, so going for
so we so the one of the restaurants we opened
last week was in Fort Collins, Colorado. It is our
second end cap. I say that because we're just we're
really excited about end caps going forward. Most important to
us from a real estate standpoints be near where our
guest is. I mean, I mean, let me just get that,
you know, say that first. And so there are certainly
(31:18):
going to be occasions in which a standalone unit with
a drive through probably makes sense for us to be
close to that guest. We opened location last year in Gilbert,
Arizona's example, that has a that has a drive through
and it's it's doing fantastic. Fort Collins, though, I think
is more likely to be the type of format going forward,
which is end cap. We've got great co tendency there.
We're next to a lot of brands, including restaurant bands
(31:40):
that we really respect and like, and we know our
guest is you know, we know our guest is going
to be in the area. And what we know about
bird calls. Is you stumble on bird call, you tend
to like and you tend to come back.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
So are you guys doing looking to do more non
traditional like these Whole Foods and the Red Rocks and
things like that. Are you looking for more partnerships?
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Yes to both. I think we've got three Whole Foods
locations today. That program is kind of paused right now
with Whole Foods. Once Whole Foods turns that back on.
If they turn it back on, we will will be
I think it's just us and Mendsino Farms they're in
that program today. Would be very excited to continue with
(32:20):
that program with Whole Foods. On the Red Rocks front,
will be very opportunistic, I guess, but also yes, incredibly
excited about being you know, being being part of other
sports arenas here in Denver or Dallas or Phoenix. I
mean for the right for the right environment, or for
the right opportunity. We'd be really excited to expand that
way as well. Red Rocks is just I mean, it's
(32:41):
just awesome. You'll you'll see it, but it's it's hard
to be.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I mean, two Denver icons coming together, right that.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Is That's how we look at it for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, like we got to show that because everybody, I
don't know that everybody truly understands the magnitude of what
this is a great venue and to have I think
a food operation here is uh.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
This is going to be good. I think this would
be good for you guys for sure.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
If anybody do you even go, yeah, how do you
even go about getting a deal like that? I mean,
did you just wake up one day and say, oh,
I think I'm gonna be at Red Rocks. Let me
find out who I need to contact or what?
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Well we I mean back to me. It kind of
goes back to the question you guys asked. I mean
we any emerging brand. One of the biggest things you
struggle with and the biggest thing we struggle with a
bird calls awareness. Yeah, and so we and and Denver's
our home and our most the majority of our restaurants
are here in Colorado in the Front Range, and so
we wanted to find opportunities where we could get the
(33:34):
brand out to our guest got to do it. Talk
to a number of places here. The City of Denver
has has just been an incredible partner of ours. City
of Denver owns and operates Red Rocks, and you know,
we've been talking to them for probably a year year
and a half and you know, everything came together and
like I said, opened last week and just I mean
(33:54):
the picture you guys showed of Red Rocks, what's exciting
for us. There are a few brands at the top,
we're kind of where that picture roughly the area where
that picture was taken, orally brand down near the bottom
where the bulk of guests are kind of by the stage,
and so we're we're in in Grand zero, Grand Central Station.
You know. Just it's just perfect for us because in
(34:16):
one of the things, you know, one of the one
some of the folks that at Red Rocks really phrase
it this way. I think it's exactly right. And it's
just nobody ever has a bad time at Red Rocks.
I mean going out there. It could be a terrible concert,
it could be whatever. People still love it. It's just
a fun place to go.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, no doubt about it. Listen, it's going to be one. Well,
I'm glad that you're going, Sheriff. You're gonna have to
give us an up close.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And you know, get some videos and you know, maybe
me eating some you.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Know, I like it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I like it, especially the award winning chicken sandwich exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
And that's going to be a packed concert. That's their frost,
that's their first time back, umforted Son's first time back
in a few years. I think so.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah for a while.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I love it, man, And this has been good Mark.
We love getting emerging brands on the show, like what
you guys have done. So thanks so much for spending
some time with us today. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Thank you guys for having me really excited to talk
and looking forward to you guys trying bird call.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
You got it. It's going to be a good one.
All right, we'll catch you later.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
All right, there we go, Mark as coming in another
brand here on Fast Casual Nation the podcast. You guys,
if you're not subscribed to this podcast right now, steak
take some time. If you're listening to the audio version,
just get that little subscribe button on Apple, Podcast, iHeartRadio, Spotify.
You can catch us on the next generation podcast app
out there like podcast Guru, so all available. But of
(35:39):
course if you're watching this then check us over on
YouTube just like and subscribe and it's going to be
a good one Share another great show. I love these
are emerging brands. We're going to bring more on, don't
you think?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
I agree? Yeah, the scrappy brands are the most exciting
in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Little a good lineup coming up to the Perfect Pitch
as well. When when is the deadline on this again?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
The perfect to nominate yourself for the Perfect Pitch is
June first, so it's coming up.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Nominate go to Fastcasual dot com nominate yourself for Perfect Pitch.
We're going to be doing that at the event in
the fall, and we've got some big, big deals, so
check it out. Saver is going to be involved, our
capital company. We're going to be doing a lot to
help support that program. It's going to be pretty amazing.
Jara are always good to see you. We will do
it again next week right here on Fast Casual Nation.
(36:30):
Catch you guys later.
Welcome back to another episode of Fastcasling Fast Casual Nation.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
The podcast that started it all.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You know, I always have to rehearse those intros like that,
share I get.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It, I'm doing great, doing great, happy to be here
as usual.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
My editor would say, Paul, redo that, and I'll say, no, man,
that's the whole beauty of a podcast is you got
to go with what what is natural to make it work. Listen,
we got a lot of news to talk about. I
know you just dropped a big story, so I want
to share that. And first of all, big news on
the front. When it comes to Starbucks, they just drop
(00:40):
their earnings report, they bring up your story, which, by
the way, if you guys are not an email member
of Fastcasual dot com, you should be very easy. Just
go over to Fast Casual subscribe. You guys are going
to be able to get news like this all the time.
But anyway, you've got, of course, the CEO of star
Bucks now saying we missed but despite that, we think
(01:04):
we're on a turn from baby.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
I don't know, I don't know, it's it's you know,
a ten cent loss, but I mean they The CFO
also was on the call yesterday and they both maintained
that they're you know, they're back to Starbucks initiative is
working where they're making you know, stores more welcoming and
speeding up customer experience and all that. They talked about
(01:30):
how it's not great here but China and Canada are
seeing better results. So and they're well, they're also rolling
out that back to Starbucks initiatives. So they seem like,
you know, it's positive, but you know, you never know
is it is it just a CEO talk or is
it is it the real deal? I guess we'll see
next quarter, but.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I think that this is you know, when you look
at the challenge that Brian Nickel went into, which timing was,
I think everything, because you're now looking at a lot
more pressure potentially on the consumer. You know, if we
do see an uptick in inflation this next report. We've
got the FOMC meeting next week from the Fed that'll
(02:10):
probably set a little bit of a dictate a little
bit of the macro environment, which will be interesting because
the number of CEOs that I've talked to, they are
concerned that we are seeing a lot more pressure on consumers.
Consumer credit is ridiculous. So now we're dealing with people
who are not using their credit cards as much, which
is cutting into sales and foot traffic into the restaurant space.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I interviewed.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
We did a spree last week for a survey, and
we mainly because as you know, we're doing some investment rounds,
but we did twenty two calls with emerging brands, and
the sentiment of those twenty two CEOs I was kind
of scoring because I had a very specific set of questions.
I was asking, all, we're expecting a downturn in a
(02:56):
very slow summer, so this may not look good for
Starbucks coming up.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
We'll see and and we uh, you know, we reported
a story of blog yesterday by placer Ai talking about,
you know, some of the customers are trading down Starbucks
and going to some of the cheaper brands like Duncan
and some of the more regents.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
You can may end up doing well on this as
well as with McDonald's. McDonald's stock price has just been holding,
Chipotle sliding a little bit, what not that we should
get into, you know, publicly traded companies today. Because we're
talking about emerging brands, it is going to be a
rock star episode with the CEO of bird Call coming on,
(03:35):
so stand by. My name is Paul Baron. As the
(03:59):
early pioneer fast casual, I've seen the industry evolve from
just a few operators to the most sought after segment
by consumers around the world. Now we're planning to shape
its future. Tap into decades of my expertise identifying the
emerging brands and tech winners in the space saber capital.
(04:20):
We'll be fueling the next generation of fast casual innovation.
All right, we're back here on Fast Casual Nation, the
podcast that started it all.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Today, we are.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Going to have an emerging brand come on, and it's
one that of all the restaurants I've been to, haven't
been to this one? Sarah, have you been to one
of these yet?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I have not been to bird Call. I'm in Kansas City,
so we haven't had it. But I wrote a story
this week about bird Call making their debut at Red Rocks,
and I will be making my personal debut at Red
Rocks this summer to see most of the suns. Yeah,
so I will be killing two birds pun intended with
one stone when I get to try bird Call and
(05:01):
see one of my favorite bands at Red Rocks, which.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I've never got.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, we've got Mark Lohman, who is the CEO of
bird Call, coming on the show. Mark, how are you
welcome in?
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I am doing well, Thank you guys for having me on.
Really appreciate it and incredibly excited to hear that you'll
be checking out bird Call at Mumford this summer. That
is fantastic and I'm sure we'll talk about it. We
could not be more excited to have bird Call at
Red Rocks. We just think it's we just think it's
exciting for so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, the good thing is is when you look at
emerging brands like bird Call, and there are so many
new brands that are really starting to make their mark
in the industry, which for fast casual I think is great.
Tell us a little bit about where you guys are
in terms of unit size, overall growth, all that good stuff.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Yeah. So we actually the opening of Red Rocks was
last week. We time things poorly and actually opened two
restaurants last week, which you don't really want to do,
but you know, sometimes that's how things work out out.
And so of those two restaurants, we now have fifteen restaurants,
and that's across Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Ok.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I think very fair to expect that we'll see more
of those coming pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So you guys are on the move fast. What's twenty
twenty five look like for you in terms of additional openings.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
So we do have two more company owned corporate restaurants
that are going to open in twenty twenty five. I
would say on the exciting news front, we did file
our first FDD last year, and so we are headed
down the path of franchising as well. So I think
twenty twenty five is seeing excited. Obviously, we've already opened three
and have two more coming. But twenty twenty six where
(06:38):
is where we really think we'll see that inflection point
as we start to add franchisees and openings really across
across the United States.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So you think twenty twenty six is the year that
you'll get your first franchise open.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That's exactly right. Well, we certainly will. I mean we're not.
I don't think we're at the point to start announcing
who those partners are going to be. But yeah, I
think we can say with pretty strong comp and we'll
see a number of them start opening across you know,
like I said, across the United States next year. Could
not be more excited about it either.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Do you guys have a.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
People line up on menu for sure? Is that something
that you think the franchisees attract to, is they're they're
looking at the menu lineup and seeing that that's kind
of one of those that just is attracted to, you know,
the modern day consumer.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think I would say it's
a combination things. I mean, look at the restaurant business,
you got to start with the menu that you know,
the food's kind of important. So certainly I think the
menu is important, and we know we are I guess
this this kind of counts as a plug or whatever.
We did just win best Chicken Sandwich in Denver for
the fourth time in five years, so the menu is
pretty darn good. But I think it's I think I
(07:43):
do think it's also just more than that we're talking
The franchisees we're talking to are all experiencing the industry
and multi unit franchisees they've they've done this before, and
so it's not just menu. I think it's also just
positioning in terms of being fast casual and being a
little elevated versus the other brands out there. And then
it's also just you know, the technology aspects and what
(08:05):
we believe is how the consumer is evolving and our
differentiation on the bird call side to help be part
of that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, how do you go about winning a best chicken category?
Because that's a pretty heated market space, right It used
to be the best burger category. Yep, now chicken sandwiches.
There's so many brands out there. This is pretty tough.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Well it is, But I guess I'll preface and say basically,
we cheat, and the cheating is well, but the cheating
is our chef has three Michelin stars to his name,
and so I can take no credit for it at
all other than, like I said, we got a chef
who's pretty darn good at this, done this at some
pretty pretty high end restaurants, is now doing it for
(08:46):
a high end fast casual restaurant brand.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
How do you attract a chef like that to come
to leave the fine dining and come to fast casual.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Well, I hate to say it, but I think it
kind of is. We're we're in a part of the
world or of the sector part of the industry. I
guess that really is hot. I mean if you look
at fast casual and chicken, I mean, yes, it's been
hot for a few years. I think it continues to
be hot. Like you guys just said, I mean, it's
a very competitive space already, but it's also a space
(09:15):
that the people are still excited about. I don't think
there's any reason for us to look at this and
believe that that excitement or the momentum in the chicken
sandwich or the fried chicken or just broader chicken space
is going to change anytime soon. So you know, it's
the type of place I think a lot of people
want to be, and it's a battle that a lot
of people are excited about being part of.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Why do you think that you guys have been able
to kind of crack the code here because you look
at some of this is and I know, Sharon and
I we've been in this space for a while. We've
seen the rise and fall of these segments. Yeah, pizza
was the one that I think is relative. Then you
go in and you see the competition brewing up right
now in the chicken space. What do you guys think
(09:56):
you bring to the table that will set you apart
and maybe rise you out of the frame.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, and I'll depart from the food piece because obviously
that's important. But I will tell you I think there's
two things that we do that's pretty pretty different from
anyone else that allows us to be differentiated. One is, uh,
when you come to a bird Call, it'll be a
little bit different at Red Rocks, to be clear, shah.
But but but when you come through a bird Call,
I will tell you one of our founders is the
(10:23):
best restaurant designer I've ever met in my career. And
so you typically we do have drive throughs in a
number of our locations, but even with the drive through,
people come inside, and that's because the ambiance, the environment,
it's it's just pretty cool. I'm not cool, but the
environment is cool. And as I mentioned, his design and
his name's Peter Newle, and he's just it's incredible. And
(10:45):
so one is well, I think a lot of a
lot of restaurants, not just chicken restaurants, but a lot
of restaurants miss on on just the environment and the
hospitality that you get when you come into restaurants. And
then the other piece is the technology you focus that
we have at bird Call. We have our entire technology system,
which we call Poncho, one hundred percent proprietary. So when
you walk into bird Call, everything the guest sees, everything
(11:08):
the employee sees that is something we built. We have
a technology. We have engineers sitting right over there that
built this technology for us, and it allows us to
guide the guest experience in a way that no one
else has been able to do yet.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
What made you decide to go that route instead of,
you know, going with some of the other major partners
that a lot of the restaurants use, because that's that
could be scary.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
Oh for sure. And it I mean when I joined,
so I've been at bird Call now about two and
a half years, and it, I mean, you nailed It.
Was one of the very first conversations we had, is
you know, is this the right decision for us from
a technology standpoint, because it is, you use the right word.
It is kind of scary, right, I mean, you're putting
a lot of eggs in a basket and you're saying,
(11:50):
we can just we can be a restaurant, but we
can also be a technology company. And so the answer
is we started looking at what are some of the
options out there. I just come from the private equit
side and let an RFP for a large brand that
we own there. So I talked to a lot of
the you know, the point of sale companies that we've
just spoken to, and the reality was we couldn't quite
(12:11):
get all the way there. We're doing enough things that
are unique and different that we couldn't replace at one
to one and that felt like two things. One feels
like we're probably doing something interesting that we should keep doing.
And two, if we are differentiated, it's probably the type
of thing that we want to keep as a differentiation
point for Bird Call and for Poncho as we start
to license that to other restaurant companies as well.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Can you give an example, just like what you couldn't
find in another stack that you had to create on
your own.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
I'll give you two quick, two examples. I promised he'll
be quick. One is, and I hate to say, you
won't see this at Red Rocks because again non traditional,
a little bit different. But when you walk into any
of our other restaurants, when you place your order, there's
this what we call the Q screen, and it's just
I mean, you've kind of seen a version of it before,
but it is a countdown of your order is going
(13:01):
to be ready in six minutes and twenty seconds or
five forty five seconds, and it will count it down
and tell you when that order is ready. The second piece,
and it's just done really a really cool way. The
second piece, And I'll kind of tie this to the
kitchen to play system, which I believe the Poncho kitchen
display system is it's the best one I've ever seen
in the industry. But a specific example of that is
(13:24):
when you place your order, your guest information is transmitted
to the kitchen. So let's say you came in last week,
you had a bad experience that's given to the team
members like Heally cow that you know, you know, Nancy
came in and gave us one star. We obviously hate that,
but then that allows us to then, you know, do
guest recovery right there in the moment with thank you
(13:46):
for coming back in. You know, really appreciate you giving
us a second chance, and we'll give you a free cookie,
a free drink, whatever it may be to help recover
that guest and ensure that your experience today beats the
heck out of the one you had last week.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, have you seen that shrion? Have you seen anybody
do that?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
I have not seen this, not that it like completely
talks to the kitchen back there as.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well in where it's macro driven. I mean you're getting
it in by the guest. I've seen it. You know
where you see leverage on sentiment, consumer sentiment. Okay, we
got to pick this up on this particular menu item,
but not necessarily by the guests. So Mark, you mentioned
licensing this to other brands.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You know, I thought that was a breaking news that
you kind of snuck in.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
There's that new, relatively new. Yes, we've got two partners
that are pretty excited about one one fast casual brand
here in Denver and one in Dallas that will launch
with Poncho as their point of sale later this year.
But I guess back to the to the point you
guys are making. It's why I've I'm sure I've glossed
over it too much as I was talking earlier, But
(14:46):
hospitality for us is just so important. Yeah, and you
know it's just the chicken sandwiches are great, the salads
are great, so on and so forth. But if you
don't have a good experience at a restaurant. We just
foundationally believe that it's it's the food's not going to
be as good, and so this is the type of
thing that allows us to Yeah, I guess if you
get an email from the you know, from the brand
(15:07):
for guest recovery, that's good. But we'd rather come out
and personally say, hey, sorry about what happened last time.
We're here to make it right, and we're here to
sure you you become a you know, a fan of
the bird Call brand.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, I'm looking at your TikTok channel. You guys do
a pretty good job right there, just on the sense
of how you're really connecting to the audience in a
unique way, which you know, the consumer set, which I
think gets back to the point you're making, which is
this whole macro connection in hospitality which is driving that forward.
I'm so glad to hear you talk about that because
(15:42):
that has been the one sentiment score that has not
recovered post the pandemic. I mean, we saw food and
almost all segments of the restaurant industry pick up, but
hospitality from a consumer standpoints has continued to decline. Yeah,
so that that's good that you guys are doing focused
(16:03):
on it well.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
And we're all seeing that. Right. Every one of us
goes to a restaurant and the experience we have is
just not not what we'd like it to be. And
it again, it's just it's part of what we believe
to be part of the bird called differentiation because it
is so critical and and I mean bird calling nutshell
is basically a lot of people can deliver a great
fried chicken sandwich. I mean it's and we happen to
(16:24):
think ours, you know, are better, But a lot of
people can do that. But it really does have to
be that entire experience you have. And there are moments
that you know, all of us want to go out
to eat and want to have a great meal, but
we've only got forty five minutes or thirty minutes versus
the hour and a half you need for a full
service dying occasion. And so that's that's the need that
bird Call is aiming to meet. I mean, you can
(16:46):
come in still have that same great experience, still that
same great food. Yeah, it's casual environment, not full service,
but you you've got time to get to the movie
or the play or the sporting event, whatever it may
be that's coming up, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Let's talk about leadership.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Let's kind of break into that area because you bring
big brand expertise coming in from some of the best
big brands out there. Obviously your time at Kidoba was
with the one where I recognize you from when you
look at being able to translate big brand leadership into
an emerging brand, because that's that's probably I think the
(17:20):
missing link for emerging brands. A lot of times it's
startups that have not gone through the fire. You know,
they haven't seen the really tough times yet, and executives
are born i think in those tough times. So you've
obviously dealt with that. What have you been able to
translate over to a startup concept? Like Bird Call from
(17:43):
your history.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Man, that's that's really well said, Paul, because you're spot on.
I mean, really, you've got to go through the fire.
I mean, that's that's just that's that's really well said.
And I would say it's it's also a bit of
a balance too, because i mean Bird calls a startup,
as we've already talked about, I mean, we are emerging brand.
So there are elements a big brand that we don't
want to have at Bird call. You know, we can't
(18:04):
be slow, we can't be siloed. I mean, we're a
small team. If something needs to get done. I mean
I've been at Red Rocks serving chicken sandwiches. You know,
that's anament. That's the way it should.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You just do that because it's fun, right you can
you can come to see me at Montard and you've
been give me my own chicken sandwich from the CEO
of there.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Then they're at the trash Cannis. You should there are
There are worse venues to serve fried chicken sandwiches. But so,
I mean you do want to bring I mean, we
do want to have the processes and procedures to some extent,
because if we're going to franchise, and we're talking to
folks that you know, have franchised before and are doing
it with very legitimate brands, which Bird Clothes as well,
(18:52):
you've got to have a certain, uh, you know, a
certain approach that they're going to recognize that they're going
to appreciate and they're going to note that they're going
to support it as going to be supported as they
grow the Bird brand. Right at the same time, I
mean you want to have that startup culture though, just
we got to get it done. We got to go
out and it doesn't matter who it is there. You know,
here's the battle of the day. We've got to go
(19:14):
out and make sure that we that we win. And
I would say, you know, back to your to your point,
I mean we all experienced COVID. I mean, I think
that was a great learning experience or whatever you'd like
to call it for many of us. But you've got
to have those setbacks because one of the things in
any emerging brand, I mean, if when you're a large brand,
(19:34):
you know, Church is checking is the brand that that
the biggest, the brand I was most associated with prior
to joining to joining Bird Call, which we purchased when
I was a high bluff, right when when you know,
when you're at a large brand, you got fifteen hundred restaurants,
and you'd start looking at sales just as an example,
you you rarely look at individual restaurants because the overall
average just kind of hides the good and the bad,
(19:56):
which is fine, but a man, if you've got fifteen restaurants,
I mean, you're talking about the results from a single
restaurant and you've got exactly you know, from a leadership standpoint,
you've also got to make sure that you know, I mean,
holy cal sales were terrible yesterday. Well you know, one
restaurant was closed because of a gas or leak or whatever.
I mean, you've got to help, you know, moderate the team,
(20:17):
to help ensure that everyone's still focused on the overall goal,
because you are going to have the us and downs
much more so in an emerging brand than you would
at a larger brand.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
One thing you said, though, I think that a lot
of operators are failing to understand is this connection when
a big brand leader comes into an emerging brand. You
mentioned siloed, and that is usually a you know, it's
a death nail in many cases. And I talked to
so many brand startups that are trying to create systems that,
(20:50):
you know, because they want to be a big brand someday,
so they think they have to create these systems and
they end up falling into these traps of building a
big brand and you know, mentality in a small brand
startup and it ends up hitting a wall at some
point because it doesn't build culture. Is that what you
think is happening at Burkhall.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Uh, the experience what you just described, I would say, uh,
we've so first of all, we're very focused on avoiding
you know, the perils and the pitfalls you just described.
I would say, you know, part of it from our standpoint,
it's you know, hiring is incredibly important. We you know,
I've made a couple of missteps already that that we've
had to had to resolve just in terms of there
(21:33):
are folks that fit really well in big brands, that's great,
and there are you know, there are folks that would
would rather be in an emerging brand and that and that's
great as well, and we need and we need to
have that type of approach. Here. One thing we did
recently and you know, boy, I should have done this sooner,
is our leadership team here at bird Call or leadership
team meeting is every corporate employee. I mean, that really
(21:53):
is the leadership. I mean we're small enough, we can
all fit in the same room. We don't you know,
communication needs to be you know among everyone. Yeah, all
we're all trying to reach the same objective. There's you know,
there's not really secrets that we're trying to keep from anyone.
But if you if you do have silos, and if
you do have you know, long, you know, hot big
(22:13):
spans and you know someone needs to communicate to someone
else and all of that, it just it just leads
to the belief that, well, all the stuff's happening and
I'm not part of it or whatever, and we just
we just don't need that in a small brand line, right,
Let's just knock it out in one room and go
out and you know, get on with it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, it does help you get to a point where
you can scale. And because if you can scale with
a core team and you can keep those principles, you know,
in the position where the brand is still growing at
that kind of that startup mentality. I've done this with
many businesses where you know, startup is really the phase
I enjoy, and once it gets so big, you start
(22:54):
to lose that kind of soul of the brand itself.
So I wonder do you think Mark that we're going
to see more fast casual concepts that are maybe I mean,
I know you're franchising, but more focused on regional, slow
growth but high quality, high volume restaurants.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
What are your thoughts I that would be if I
had to place a bet. That would be the bet
I would place, and to some extent, it is the
growth approach we are taking, which is, look, look, everyone
wants to grow to one thousand units or whatever. But
I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done
the opposite of well, and so we don't. We don't
(23:38):
call it. We don't. We don't ever talk about on
the bird call side. We don't talk about it in
terms of rapid growth. We talk about in terms of
smart growth. Yeah, and hopefully that leads to rapid growth
at some point in time. But I'd much rather open
one restaurant in twenty twenty six it's just a killer restaurant,
great real estate with the right franchise partner or whatever
it may be, than ten restaurants, and then in twenty
(23:59):
twenty seven we got a close three of them or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
So when you franchise, are you sticking to your region
for now, like the Colorado region around there, or are
you kind of going everywhere?
Speaker 5 (24:10):
I wouldn't call it everywhere yet, just because I guess
continuing that, you know what I was mentioning, there are
there are perils with going everywhere, just I mean not
you know starting I guess just with supply chain. So
right now the focus has really been Western US. So
we're already in Texas, Arizona, Las Vegas, specific Northwest, a
(24:31):
few a few areas beyond that, but nothing east of
the mississipp yet, which which isn't to say we're not
going to go there at some point, but you know,
opening one restaurant in Florida or North Carolina, you know,
that's that's kind of tough, just for a lot of reasons.
And so we'd rather, at least for now, build that
density in the western US and expand from there.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, great photography too on this. I'm looking at the
you know, obviously the Tots that you can sandwich. You
guys have got a good drink lineup mark when you
look at AUV and I talked to I won't say
the brand, but there's been some other chicken brands out
there that are claiming some pretty crazy numbers, you know,
(25:12):
in excess of three million a store. And what do
you think of fast Cat? First of all, how big
are you? How big are your units?
Speaker 5 (25:21):
We've got We've got a wide range just from kind
of when we started initially. We've got some smaller ones.
We've got a couple of bigger ones. But going forward,
the right way to think about it's about twenty three
hundred square feet.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Twenty three hundred okay, so within a twenty three hundred
square foot space, if you get the right real estate,
you get the right team in there. I mean, what
do you think is the potential for Chicken brands like
you guys in terms of where's the where's the ceiling
on AUV? How much could you turn if everything was right?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Yeah, well it's a great question because I'm going to
add a piece to it because how much could we
turn and also deliver a great guest experience?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Sure? Because again that's that's just so important to us.
And so you know, today we're sitting about two and
a half million dollar AUVs for existing restaurants, So we
feel very good there. That's certainly not the cap. I mean,
we can get well above three and you know, call
it three to four million dollar AUVs and work line,
we're delivering that great guest experience. But I mean, look,
I mean we all look at some of the brands
(26:19):
out there doing way above that, and we're a long
way from there. They've they've built fantastic brands, and you know,
good for them, and hopefully someday we'll get there. But
I mean, realistically, we wouldn't be able to deliver an
eight million dollar AUV out of a twenty three hundred
square foot space and deliver the guest experience we want
to have.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
That would be that that's on I just cannot put
my head around that share when I think eight million
out of one unit like that, the potential, I think
the key is is when you have the right menu mix,
you've got the right flow through in terms of speed
to the guest, which I thought what you were talking
about in terms of your tech giving the almost reverse countdown.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Consumers love that, like where's my order?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, they love it on Amazon it's like five
stops away, you know, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Customer service really great.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
Well, it's funny because that piece that Q screen I
mentioned I very much when I when I started at
bird Call, I very much diminished that and it was
a type of thing that I looked at like, oh
that's kind of cool, you know, great.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I bet people actually love the love that.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Yeah, people love it. I mean you it's it is
like I said, I I diminished it, I shouldn't have
it is it is cool. People like it. It is
the type of thing that people find differentiating for vertical
so so great.
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Speaker 1 (29:15):
All right, let's get into our last segment of the
show today, and that is future trends. Obviously, the category
of chicken is so hot right now. In some cases,
Sharon and I talk about this all the time. We
think it's overheated. There's so many brands. Yeah, how do
you think you guys will separate? And where do you
(29:35):
think this is going in the next few years?
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Well, you nailed it out of the gate. There's just
a ton of brands, and I think feels like more
entering every day. To some extent, I think whether we're
in an economic downturn now or whether we you know,
hit one the coming years. I think, you know, some
of them just from a sales amplitude standpoint, they just
don't have the volumes to survive. Yeah, so I think
(29:58):
we'll all I think it's fair to expect we'll see
some that just won't make it with sphinx. I mean,
you hate you as someone who's been in the industry
a while, you hate to see it, but but I
think it probably is a logical outcome, you know, for
better or worse. I guess I do expect we probably
see some of that, which is why you know, I
(30:19):
think any brand that's being smart about about growth will
probably do fine. What I mean by that is, I
mean so many say it, but I mean the most
important aspects of opening a new restaurant, the top three
or real estate, real estate and real estate, and so
you know, if you if you get the right if
you get the right location, the right least terms, you
got the right brand. Uh. Yeah, we may get punched
(30:40):
in the face a little bit over the whether it's
this year, next year, whenever, we'll survive and and those
that don't prepare in the right way probably you know,
probably suffer more than others unfortunately. So what is the.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Real estate for you guys?
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Is it in.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Is?
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, so going for
so we so the one of the restaurants we opened
last week was in Fort Collins, Colorado. It is our
second end cap. I say that because we're just we're
really excited about end caps going forward. Most important to
us from a real estate standpoints be near where our
guest is. I mean, I mean, let me just get that,
you know, say that first. And so there are certainly
(31:18):
going to be occasions in which a standalone unit with
a drive through probably makes sense for us to be
close to that guest. We opened location last year in Gilbert,
Arizona's example, that has a that has a drive through
and it's it's doing fantastic. Fort Collins, though, I think
is more likely to be the type of format going forward,
which is end cap. We've got great co tendency there.
We're next to a lot of brands, including restaurant bands
(31:40):
that we really respect and like, and we know our
guest is you know, we know our guest is going
to be in the area. And what we know about
bird calls. Is you stumble on bird call, you tend
to like and you tend to come back.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
So are you guys doing looking to do more non
traditional like these Whole Foods and the Red Rocks and
things like that. Are you looking for more partnerships?
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Yes to both. I think we've got three Whole Foods
locations today. That program is kind of paused right now
with Whole Foods. Once Whole Foods turns that back on.
If they turn it back on, we will will be
I think it's just us and Mendsino Farms they're in
that program today. Would be very excited to continue with
(32:20):
that program with Whole Foods. On the Red Rocks front,
will be very opportunistic, I guess, but also yes, incredibly
excited about being you know, being being part of other
sports arenas here in Denver or Dallas or Phoenix. I
mean for the right for the right environment, or for
the right opportunity. We'd be really excited to expand that
way as well. Red Rocks is just I mean, it's
(32:41):
just awesome. You'll you'll see it, but it's it's hard
to be.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I mean, two Denver icons coming together, right that.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Is That's how we look at it for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, like we got to show that because everybody, I
don't know that everybody truly understands the magnitude of what
this is a great venue and to have I think
a food operation here is uh.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
This is going to be good. I think this would
be good for you guys for sure.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
If anybody do you even go, yeah, how do you
even go about getting a deal like that? I mean,
did you just wake up one day and say, oh,
I think I'm gonna be at Red Rocks. Let me
find out who I need to contact or what?
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Well we I mean back to me. It kind of
goes back to the question you guys asked. I mean
we any emerging brand. One of the biggest things you
struggle with and the biggest thing we struggle with a
bird calls awareness. Yeah, and so we and and Denver's
our home and our most the majority of our restaurants
are here in Colorado in the Front Range, and so
we wanted to find opportunities where we could get the
(33:34):
brand out to our guest got to do it. Talk
to a number of places here. The City of Denver
has has just been an incredible partner of ours. City
of Denver owns and operates Red Rocks, and you know,
we've been talking to them for probably a year year
and a half and you know, everything came together and
like I said, opened last week and just I mean
(33:54):
the picture you guys showed of Red Rocks, what's exciting
for us. There are a few brands at the top,
we're kind of where that picture roughly the area where
that picture was taken, orally brand down near the bottom
where the bulk of guests are kind of by the stage,
and so we're we're in in Grand zero, Grand Central Station.
You know. Just it's just perfect for us because in
(34:16):
one of the things, you know, one of the one
some of the folks that at Red Rocks really phrase
it this way. I think it's exactly right. And it's
just nobody ever has a bad time at Red Rocks.
I mean going out there. It could be a terrible concert,
it could be whatever. People still love it. It's just
a fun place to go.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, no doubt about it. Listen, it's going to be one. Well,
I'm glad that you're going, Sheriff. You're gonna have to
give us an up close.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And you know, get some videos and you know, maybe
me eating some you.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Know, I like it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I like it, especially the award winning chicken sandwich exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
And that's going to be a packed concert. That's their frost,
that's their first time back, umforted Son's first time back
in a few years. I think so.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah for a while.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I love it, man, And this has been good Mark.
We love getting emerging brands on the show, like what
you guys have done. So thanks so much for spending
some time with us today. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Thank you guys for having me really excited to talk
and looking forward to you guys trying bird call.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
You got it. It's going to be a good one.
All right, we'll catch you later.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
All right, there we go, Mark as coming in another
brand here on Fast Casual Nation the podcast. You guys,
if you're not subscribed to this podcast right now, steak
take some time. If you're listening to the audio version,
just get that little subscribe button on Apple, Podcast, iHeartRadio, Spotify.
You can catch us on the next generation podcast app
out there like podcast Guru, so all available. But of
(35:39):
course if you're watching this then check us over on
YouTube just like and subscribe and it's going to be
a good one Share another great show. I love these
are emerging brands. We're going to bring more on, don't
you think?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
I agree? Yeah, the scrappy brands are the most exciting
in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Little a good lineup coming up to the Perfect Pitch
as well. When when is the deadline on this again?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
The perfect to nominate yourself for the Perfect Pitch is
June first, so it's coming up.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Nominate go to Fastcasual dot com nominate yourself for Perfect Pitch.
We're going to be doing that at the event in
the fall, and we've got some big, big deals, so
check it out. Saver is going to be involved, our
capital company. We're going to be doing a lot to
help support that program. It's going to be pretty amazing.
Jara are always good to see you. We will do
it again next week right here on Fast Casual Nation.
(36:30):
Catch you guys later.
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