August 13, 2025 • 35 mins
The Pacers had one of the most unexpected runs to the NBA Finals in NBA history, but it came at a huge cost as Tyrese Haliburton tore his Achilles in Game 7. To discuss the magic of that playoff streak and to find out what is in store for Indiana next season, after the Haliburton injury, Caitlin Cooper (Basketball She Wrote) joins this episode of Fastbreak Breakfast. Among the many topics, she discusses when she first had an inkling the Pacers could make the Finals, her thoughts on Myles Turner leaving for Milwaukee, and she has a dark revelation about Pop Tarts!
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Episode 807 (S11 Ep. 32)
Join the listener slack only at patreon.com/fastbreakbreakfast
Get 20% off a Stathead annual subscription with code FBBF
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Episode 807 (S11 Ep. 32)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, and welcome to Fast Break Breakfast MBA podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
My name is Keith Parrish and I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Here once again for the first time in a long
time with the legend Caitlin Cooper Kaylen Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Also.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
First of all, congratulations on all the success you've had
since the last time you were on my show. From
my perspective, it seems like you're blowing up. So what's
it like to be huge?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
First of all, thank you for having me back. It
has been a while. I'm wearing my company branded attire
to show how devoted I am.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Can I tell you that I was pulling up my notes,
which was a Google document on what we're going to
talk about, which again there's not I like to do
random podcasting in honor of the Pacers, random offense where
I don't really schedule out anything we're not calling.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
But I did have my notes up.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I actually hadn't even looked at like the zoom video
to see you're wearing a Fast Break Breakfast T shirt.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm so proud.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is how you feel when Tyres Halliburton wears your merch.
I'm having the same feeling right now. I'm wearing a
John Contar shirt. That's an honor of Indiana.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
That's right. I mean, the Grizzlies do have a lot
of Indiana representation, so I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Less now I think Desmond Bain had a connection. He's gone,
that's true, Rip, No, what's like?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh yeah, I still.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Think I'm fairly niche Yeah, it was very nice that
the Indiana Pacers went to the NBA Finals. That certainly
helped my overall visibility. I suppose when only your team
plays to the final day of the season, that's typically
pretty helpful.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have been begging the Grizzlies to do that to
help me out, and they refuse. They flatly refuse. I'm like,
this would be great for me if you guys can
make the finals like once, but they haven't done it
so far.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
If only they could stay healthy, that would also, I
think be helpful. A few less injury reports.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Maybe, can I tell you we got to get in
a lot of stuff. We actually have to talk about breakfast.
People have been yelling at me for not talking about breakfast.
I'll say I went through a lot of emotions as
a basketball fan watching the unbelievable run of the Indiana Pacers.
As a kid, I loved the Pacers like they were
one of the teams I cheered for. Part of that
was because I always cheered against like Michael Jordan, so
(02:30):
like I'm pulling for, you know, Reggie Miller, and then
like I'm cheering against the Lakers, so I'm pulling for
those like Jalen Rose, you know all that. But there
was some sort of jealousy I had as like a
Grizzlies fan, where I'm like, listen, the Pacers. They had
a worse net rating than the Grizzlies last year, you know,
(02:50):
and so I'm like, in my mind they were not
a contender, and here they are winning round after round,
and I'm like, why not me? But then I got
over the jealousy and I was just super excited. I think,
guess when they faced off for the Knicks, I'm like,
I've my whole life, I'm always checking against the big markets.
So then I was able to lock in enjoy the run,
and then I was broken hearted when they came up
(03:10):
just short.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But it was an unbelievable run.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Before we do your breakfast, the thing I've been wondering
for the longest time, when did you as a Pacers
expert and lifelong fan. When did you realize or think
they could win the title or at least make the finals.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Just overall as a contender. I started feeling a lot
more confident when they beat Boston on the road around January,
because bo Tyres tied his season high for points in
the paint in that game, and obviously Boston tries to
run teams off the three point line because of the
variants that they want to get, but Tyres was a
lot more relentless. His athleticism looked like it was back
(03:57):
where it needed to be, and I was like, this
is turning the corner. Then, when they had the two
game mini series against Cleveland and Tyres ironically ended up
having a tweak of his hamstring and didn't play in
the second half of that game, watching their ball pressure
defense and the effect that they had against Donovan Mitchell
and Darius Garland, I was like, this is something. And
then obviously the March Madness run that they had where
(04:18):
they just kept finding different and probable ways to win
convinced me. But the actual one crystallized moment where I
thought that they could be an NBA Finals team actually
wasn't a game that they played in so Game five
of the Celtics Knicks series, after Jason Tatum had blown
his achilles, I was watching the Knicks. That altered how
(04:40):
the Celtics played, and the Celtics were running, you know,
they had to stack more actions, there was a little
bit more movement in their offense, and the Knicks were
really switching for kind of the first time, like they
did very little switching during the regular season. I don't
think you oftentimes want to be doing something for the
first time in the playoffs, but I was watching their
switches and I was like, there's a lot of confusion
out there. And this Game five, the Celtics ended up
(05:02):
pulling off that win before the Knicks took them out
in six, and I was just like, I don't think
over a seven game series that the Knicks are going
to be able to defend the way that the Indiana
Pacers play. I was very confident that they were going
to win that series. I picked them in six, and
then they went to the NBA Finals. So it was
actually watching how they defended the Celtics without Jason Tatum
that convinced me they were a finals team.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
But somewhere in there, I think you have to bake
in the fact that you guys were rocking the Cavaliers
at that point, you know, like the fact that you
guys were taking care of business, because that was shocking.
I mean, NBA, maybe not to you that, I guess
that's more of what I want to know, because nationally
that was shocking. When you look at like the betting
lines of that series, Cavaliers against the Pacers, that's one
(05:43):
of the bigger upsets we've had in a playoff series.
So going into that, if you can remember back going
into the Pacers Cavaliers series, like what was your confidence
level at that point?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
It was actually fairly high. I did a mailbag podcast
with Samson at the end of the regular season and
somebody was like, are the Pacers that guaranteed second round
out against At the time, most people thought either Cleveland
or Boston, And I said, I liked their bracket. I
liked that they were playing the Bucks and that they
were playing the Calves in the second round. And because
of what I had seen in that two game mini
series back in January and how their defense really affected Cleveland.
(06:18):
And then to the Pacers' credit, they almost changed a
lot of what they did defensively, Cleveland was averaging fewer
passes in that series than the thirtieth ranic team in
the NBA the Pacers because they effectively pulled back all
of their nail help. It pulled back the wheel action
that the Memphis Grizzlies also run that the Calves run
a lot around their pick and roll. That wasn't effective
for the Calves anymore. So it was kind of like
(06:38):
funnel tons of usage to Donovan Mitchell hope that he
runs out of gas at the end of games, which
he did several times. Obviously, he ended up injuring his ankle.
Darius Garland's toe situation was worse than I think a
lot of people thought because he ended up having surgery,
and I still don't think he's necessarily ready to play
right now. I don't know for sure, but I actually
thought that they were going to win the series against Cleveland.
(06:59):
I think that we picked going into it, So it
wasn't as shocking to me as maybe it was from
the outside looking in. And especially because you talked about
the net rating, the Pacers net rating. I had a
meme going throughout the second half of the season where
it was like, you know, the one on the bus
where the guys looking at the sunny side and the
dark side. When the Pacers were playing good basketball teams,
you know, they had one of the best offensive ratings
(07:19):
in the NBA against like Boston, OKC, Cleveland. They were
struggling against the lottery teams. So in terms of their
contender status, that was kind of emboldening me to a degree.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
That's interesting. They're the exact mirror image of the Grizzlies.
The Grizzlies just destroyed every bad team they played last
year and then had a horrible record against good teams. Okay,
now let's go back to the start where we should
have started this show. Your breakfast, Caitlin, you are a
beyond being a blogging podcasting expert.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You have some passions. I feel like the Outshine bars
and then the pop tarts.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Has there been any advances in the technology in the
last couple of years with those two products?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I mean, most recently, I made a popsicle. Samson had
kept saying on our podcast that I needed to watch
the movie The Princess Bride, and I had never seen it,
so in the off season I promised everybody I would
watch it, so I made a Princess bride themed popsicle
that of course was blue lemonade with gummy worms to
try to mimic the shrieking eels that are in that film.
(08:27):
So that obviously was you know, I did it for science,
clearly a big time advancement in the popsicle.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
What realm, Well, now that you've brought us here, what
were your thoughts on the movie or no, No, I'm
more about the movie. This is an all time for me.
It's an all time childhood classic. Got to show it
to my kids in the last I think the last
year or two, and they loved it as well. The
violence at the end a little bit too much for
my seven year old, but I.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Think it pretty intense as well.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
There's a lot of blood for a funny kids movie.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I appreciated the snappy banter quite a lot for similar
reasons to why I like this podcast. Samson knows me
well in terms of what dialogue I like. So, you know,
lines like have fun storm in the Castle and their
reverence they had for their own genre. Yeah, I found
quite endearing.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's really good, are so? But and the popsicle was fine.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
I mean I don't really probably recommend freezing gummy worms.
As you can imagine, they get quite hard.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I would I would tell you as a candy expert,
the gummy candies, which are my favorites, Yeah, they shouldn't
get cold. You only want to refrigerate them. You don't
want them to be he or anything cooled. Yeah, because
they get rock hard and hard to deal with. What
about the pop tart landscape anything like that was the
(09:45):
last time.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, I have a bone to pick with the pop
tart company.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
The prown sugar unfrosted pop tarts have become impossible to find,
which are clearly when you power rank pop tarts number
one on the list, Yes, yes, and they're not at
my grocery stores anymore. You can't find the unfrosted brown
sugar cinnamon pop tarts. This frosted ones, but not the unfrosted.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yet another example of America's real decline. Just the society
crumbling around us.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Can't the kellogg what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
The unfrosted ones in general are hard to find, probably
because they're they're I mean, not everybody knows this, but
the unfrosted ones are actually less healthy than the frosted ones.
Caloric intake. Yes, because the crust has to be thicker
because they don't have the ice thing on the top.
So because the crust is thicker, they actually are higher
in calories. So maybe why they're not on.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
The shelves that that is more shocking than the Pacers
taking the Thunder to seven games.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I mean, if you ask people questions ahead of time,
like which thing do they know? Or would they predict
the Pacers in a Game seven of the NBA Finals,
or which pop tart is more healthy, I'm guessing that
more people will get the pop tart question wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Let's go back to the Pacers, because again, I want
to I want to really luxuriate in this. I if
I call it miraculous, that feels maybe insulting to some degree,
but I still would like to I like continually emphasizing
how rare this occasion was, because throughout my whole lifetime,
your lifetime, usually the teams that make it to the finals,
(11:23):
there's like a short list every season where you're like
one of these handful of teams. And the way the
regular season went, I think in the East We're just like, yeah, yeah,
the Celtics are amazing. And I have a couple of
Celtics friends in my life who like one of them,
I he would ask me like, oh, we lost to
a horrible team. I'm like, who cares. The Celtics are amazing,
(11:44):
Like it's the regular season, it doesn't matter. But then
we saw them start to stumble against the Knicks even
before Tatum's injury, and so like them fading away the
Cavaliers again getting run out of the gym by you
guys made it so remarkable. But then the showdown with
the Thunder. Was this just a team for the Pacers?
Do you think it was a team that just was
actually getting better and better and better month by month?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Was it more of a magical run?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Like how do you explain I guess what happened throughout
the season where the Pacers started the year at one
point and then by the time June rolled around, they
were this juggernaut.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I mean, I think it was a little bit of both.
I made a joke at the time that watching the
Pacers over the back end of that season and throughout
the playoffs was a little bit like, you know, a corny,
cheesy Christmas Movie where they're like, you know, in order
to save Christmas, we have to have more belief, and
then that powered them a little bit more. It was
almost like every time they pulled off, you know, tyres
had his latest clutch shot or what you know, obi
(12:42):
Toppins falling into the corner making a three against the
Timberwolves during the regular season, it was almost like it
was hard for them to believe that they wouldn't be
able to come back and pull off a win because
they had done it so many times, which is something
that TJ almost kind of alluded to and is one
most recent Players Tribute article. So I think there's certainly
some of that. But part of what was allowing them
to get back into those games, which I think went
(13:06):
maybe under discussed a little bit, is like almost every
one of those clutch shots by Tyrese was preceded by
a clutch stop from Andrew Nemhard, and a lot of
times those teams stopped having timeouts available to them to
try to course correct during those situations because of the
Pacers ball pressure defense, because coaches were blowing timeouts because
they couldn't get the ball in bounce, and I think
(13:26):
probably two things like I don't believe in the grand
theory of basketball in terms of like, oh, how is
the rest of the NBA going to mimic the Oklahoma
City Thunder or the Indiana Pacers so that they can
play like them? I think that's pretty debunked by the
fact that, you know, the last seven champions looked nothing
like each other at all. But in the sense that
the NBA's highest average pickup point was last year. After
(13:47):
the Pacers played more ball pressure possessions than any team
in synergies like twelve year database in the playoffs or
I should say second second spectrums twelve year database, the
rest of the NBA started star started mimicking that there's
a lot more ball pressure going on in the NBA
at this point in time over last season. And then
also like the roster construction, which is something that Rick
kind of talked about a little bit on the podcast
(14:08):
and the clip that I put onto Twitter for him,
that like the idea that you have to have deeper rosters.
Of course, you know, it helps when you have Tyrese
Halibert in Pascal siakam is your two top players, but
having you know, ten to eleven rotation players enabled them
to play the high tempo style offensively as well as
their ball pressure defense defensively. More so than having two
(14:30):
guys who get all the touches. The Pacers are a
very quick decision making team. I think when you look
at like their average touch time as a team, it
was the highest in the last five years. They were
second in passes per one hundred possessons last season. It's
very much a hot ball offense, and I think that
some of those are things that the rest of the
NBA might be looking at as to why the Pacers
were able to advance in the way that they were.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I'm almost certain the Grizzlies are going to continually
continue trying to mimic the ball pressure. Like I think
they're going to pick up full court a lot next year,
and then a lot in Summer League. They tried, they
did it some last year. But yeah, I do think
a lot of people are trying to replicate the Pacers.
I also think, and this is funny, I guess like
(15:10):
both the Thunder and the Pacers, it's it's gonna be
hard for teams to point to those rosters as like, oh, yeah,
we should do it that way too. You know, we're
like the Thunder, a very unique situation with the return
from the Paul George trade being able to tank a
couple of years whilst Shaye was still amazing and they
ended up getting you know, you can. I have argued that,
(15:31):
like they could have done it without tanking, because like
the Jaylen Williams pick was most important, Chet Holmgren very important.
Of course they tanked for that one, but like the Thunder,
is hard to replicate the Pacers one.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I honestly feel it might be bad.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
For small market teams to point like where the owners
or the gms can point to the Pacers and be like, see,
look they they don't go into the tax. They traded
for a couple of guys, I mean, trading for your guys.
I feel like the Knicks and the Pacers, I'm in
awe of how they built their teams because they didn't
do it maybe the traditional way, Like it wasn't drafted guys.
(16:05):
It was it was mainly we identified players to go
and trade for or sign a free agency and then
like the free agent signings that like like getting Nie Smith,
what an incredible get, and then nim hard like that
working out, you know, like it seems hard to replicate that,
you know, to bring in and over top and the like,
have all your salaries fit just perfectly.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Although I know, and again my worry is now every.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Smaller market team is going to say we don't need
to pay the text we could be the Pacers.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Or the fact that maybe the draft is less important
to an extent because when the passc the Oakham trade
happened and the return got put out there. You know,
obviously the Raptors got several first round picks from the Pacers,
but at the time, I was like, oh, they got
Pascal without giving up Andrew Nemhore, Benedict Madder and Jarris Walker,
you know, any of their recent high lottery endpicks or
Andrew Nemhoard. And I was like, I don't like this
(17:00):
is probably gonna sound a little bit blunt, but like,
I don't really care that they gave up those picks
because when you look at their recent draft history, the
only players that they've signed a second year contracts since
Miles Turner are Andrew Nemhart and now Isaiah Jackson coming
off an Achilles injury. Like, if you look at at
the rest of what those picks were it's a pretty
spotty record, but they've been tremendous with their pro scouting
(17:21):
department and identifying players, like you said with Aaron E. Smith,
with Obi Toppin, of guys that you know, might not
have worked out in their previous situations, whether because of
roster crunch or the style of play, who could really
elevate their games with the Pacers and shine in a
different way that maybe they previously haven't. So they've largely
built this, you know, looking at that their starting lineup,
it's almost entirely trades other than the fact that Miles
(17:42):
Turner had been there for ten years, and then obviously
they drafted Andrew as well high in the second round.
But it's not it's not really a roster built through
the draft that much.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Is Jay Huff the next player that identified that they
went to.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Diamond in the Yeah we done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
If Jay Huff absolutely destroys in the Indiana, I guess
I'll be sad.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But uh, I wasn't that broken up about it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Uh. Let's let's actually talk about Miles Turner and we'll
do that after a quick break, all right, Caitlin, So
after you know, the thrilling run to the finals. Of course,
there's the devastating Halliburton injury in Game seven, and then
(18:32):
going into the off season, there's this question of whether
or not Miles Turner comes back. In a sort of
surprising twist, the Bucks wave and stretched Damian Lillard to
acquire him in free agency, and if you believe what
the front office said from the Pacers, they were they
didn't anticipate this coming. What are your thoughts on Miles
(18:53):
Turner this I'm guessing he was easily the longest tindered Pacer, Like, uh,
what are your thoughts on Miles Turner moving.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
On after the season and going to the rival Bucks.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
When I recorded the end of the season podcast, somebody
had asked, like, what do you think about Miles Turner
being extended after his performance in the Eastern Conference Finals
in the finals, And my opinion was kind of that
maybe the Tyres injury opened up the possibility that both
sides might have slight change of heart. You know, from
(19:26):
the Pacers' perspective, it sounds like they intended to resign him,
other than the fact that, like you said, they got
surprised by the fact that the Bucks suddenly cleared enough
cap space to make what offer that they made to him.
But I do think that there's something there in terms
of Miles Turner was very good for them in the
regular season and even the early rounds of the playoffs.
But going back to the Eastern Conference Finals a year
ago against Boston, looking at that Knick series, looking at
(19:47):
the Thunder series, he had more turnovers in those series
than he had made three pointers, which is problematic. Against
Boston a year ago, he led the team in turnovers,
and some of that goes to the fact that the
Boston Celtics were cross matching Jason Tatum on too Myles
Turner for a large portion of that series. There were
times where Derek White was successful as standing him up
(20:10):
in the post and kind of you know, even blocking
him once in the post against autopilot post moves. Boston
and Oka See defend very differently, but in terms of
both of their abilities to do cross matching and switching
without him necessarily punishing it, it was really there. And okay,
see was always going to be a series that was
going to be more difficult for Tyrese because it's kind
of the antithesis of how he plays. In terms of
(20:31):
their ability to really take away the paint in how
much they load up at the elbows in the blocks
in order to crack that. Tyrese wasn't getting into the
paint anymore often. In fact, it was slightly less often
with Miles on the floor than off the floor. Despite
the fact that people see him as like the prototypical
stretch five, it wasn't necessarily stretching okay C's defense, and
if he got a switch on to Shay, it wasn't
(20:53):
like he was using a quick swim move to punish it.
At the same time, he's not necessarily a guy who
has a lot of screencraft. And that's fine during the
regular season because Tyrese is one of the leaders in
you know, screen rejections per one hundred posessions. He doesn't
use a lot of screens. But when you're playing a
very handsy, physical defense like OKC, he needed that. And
it's very easy to see the ways that Tyrese enhances
(21:15):
Miles Turner's game. It hasn't always been as clear to
see the way that Miles Turner enhances Tyrese's game, and
that may matter even more when Tyree's eventually comes back
from this Achilles injury. So I was probably a little
bit different than the fan base at large in terms
of the fact that I thought that this season kind
of presents the Pacers with an opportunity to perhaps take
a step back to later take a bigger step forward,
(21:37):
potentially with a different center who can help them in
some of those later rounds of the playoffs in ways
that Miles just didn't over the last two years. And
there is some stuff there because I know he was
slightly dealing with, you know, back spasms in Game four
against Boston, and he was sick at one point during
the Finals against the Thunder, but that doesn't fully explain
some of the rebounding stuff against the Knicks, and just
some different ways where I think that they need a
(21:59):
little bit of an upgrade at that position overall. So
it was very surprising that the Milwaukee Bucks stretched Damian
Lillard and that that is what team Miles Turner went to.
And I don't think it's exactly you know, tremendous asset
management that he ended up walking for nothing despite that
surprise that they weren't able to do a sign and
trade with some other team or even with the Bucks
to try to get something in return. But I can't
(22:21):
see a path forward where they could eventually, you know,
make an upgrade at that position that actually helps ty
recent ways that weren't necessarily here the last two seasons.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, I understand how it could benefit the Pacers long term,
but it also fits so clearly into the box of like, oh,
of course they were going to pay Miles Turner, because
that was the criticism going in where it's like, oh,
the Pacers actually made the finals, so maybe now they'll
finally pay the luxury tax to keep Miles Turner. And
then it's like, oh, what a big surprise. They actually
(22:53):
didn't do it. And I know, of course there's extenuating circumstances.
The Haliburton injury does perhaps give permission where everyone like, oh,
you know, but I get it now, like that that
kind of makes sense. Looking at his stats from those
the finals and the conference finals, like you said, he
averaged two turnovers and one three pointer made per game.
I'll say, as someone who doesn't watch the Pacers every
game in the regular season, but you know, in the playoffs,
(23:15):
I'm watching him game by game. One of the most
common things I was talking to with other basketball fans
was like, is Miles Turner okay, because he seems so
slow and he wasn't shooting very well in those series.
Now that Miles has gone and with the Halliburton injury,
what are the expectations for this season are they? I mean,
(23:36):
there's still a lot of talent on the roster, but
there's the gaping hole that Haliburton filled. And also, I mean,
how many games were swung just on miracle Haliburton plays.
You know, It's like there feels like a pretty high number.
So what what are the Pacers doing for this upcoming year?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think your answer is probably as good as mine.
I mean, I think that they want to be They're
going to start the season, I'm sure trying to be
as competitive as possible, come off what run they just had.
We'll see how that goes. But it's a little bit
hard for me to project because if you look to
the start of last season, when they got to the
point of the break for the NBA Cup, which they
weren't in because they lost all four of their Cup games,
(24:14):
they were ten and fifteen at that point, they ranked
nineteenth offensively, nineteenth defensively, And when you look at the
reason why, a lot of the fingers for lack of
better terms can be pointed at the fact that Tyresse
wasn't himself over that stretch of play, their offense was
very much impacting why their defense was as poor as
it was. In addition to the fact that Andrew dem
Hard and Aarond Smithy where they're you know, two of
(24:34):
their best point of attack defenders along with Ben schepperd
just weren't available. That certainly wasn't helpful, But their turnover
rate was much higher once they cut back on the turnovers,
once they were making more shots, once their offense got
back to being what their offense is capable of being.
With Tyresse, their defense followed hand in hand because you know,
when you make more shots and you aren't turning the
ball over, it's easier to set your ball pressure defense.
So both things, you know, ended up feeding into each
(24:57):
other in a way where it was like a vicious
negative feedback loop over the those first roughly twenty five games.
So when I look at that, I know, over those
series of games that like, yeah, Tyrese wasn't himself, but
Tyrese was still on the court and a lot of
teams were still face guarding him. Ninety four feet, including
the Memphis Grizzlies, where like I'm watching them play possessions
four on four repeatedly that are opening things up for
Andrew nemhore in Pascal Siakam just by virtue of Tyree's
(25:19):
standing on the basketball court. So I'm really wondering what
does all of that look like. How does the gravity
and the tension and the defense change when Tyreese not
only you know, it's not just gonna be limited Tyresse,
it's gonna be no Tyrese. So I mean, I think
that they already know how valuable he was to the franchise.
I think they're gonna find it out a little bit
more when he isn't playing. And certainly, like this isn't
(25:40):
completely new for Pascal. He's been a number one option before,
and he's been a number one option in a very
cramped half court offense for the Toronto Raptors with you know,
Yaka pertl and Scottie Barnes and Dennis Shrewder running points.
So he knows how to be, you know, a piece
of paper that can slide through a crack in the door.
I'm not overly concerned about him and him potentially seeing
War Defenders as a number one option. But I think
(26:01):
the biggest question that I have in all of this
is who is the Andrew Nemhard for Andrew Nemhard, Because
I don't have doubt of Andrew Nemhard's guile running the
pick and roll. And there were games last year, they
were even series where Andrew Nemhard ran more pick and
roll against the Cleveland Cavaliers than Tyree did because Isaacacorro
and Max Shrews were faced guarding Tyres to the degree
that he was. But again, that's Andrew getting to run
pick and roll four on four with Tyrese practically spacing
(26:23):
out to the logo not doing it. While you know,
two game mini series last year, Andrew Nemhard's playing the
Atlanta Hawks, Tyres is out, Dyson Daniels is guarding Andrew
for an entire game and ducking under every screen because
Andrew doesn't take a lot of pull up threes. And
then at the other end, Andrew's still having to guard
Trey Young, and he's picking Trey Young up fifty feet Like,
I don't know another point guard. Maybe you can think
(26:44):
of one off the top of your head. Who is
gonna get asked next season, Hey, you're gonna be our
primary ballhandler. There's not really gonna be another ball handler
in the starting lineup as there was with Tyrese and
Andrew a year ago. And you're gonna guard the other
team's best player, and you're also going to apply fifty
feet of pressure every possession that you do it.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, that's a really that's a really big it's a
hard ask. I'm racking my brain. I can't think of it.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And if people just to add on, if people remember
the NBA Finals Game five, Andrew looked completely gassed because
Tyrese had injured his calf. In that game, Tyrese was
basically just a decoy. He's running all the offense and
he's guarding Shay and he's picking him up. Andrew ends
up having like three turnovers in the fourth quarter. And
the big adjustment the Pacers made after that game was, Hey,
we're gonna pull back the full court pressure and try
(27:27):
to you know, surprise Oka see by picking them up
at you know, half court three point line rather than
full court and try to preserve Andrew nemhard to run offense.
It worked very well for them, and every game isn't
going to be Game five against OKAC, But the Pacers
are going to have to find a way that every
game isn't Game five against OKAC for Andrew Nemhard because
I believe in him as a player, but a very
very big ask.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I mean it also seems cool in a way as
NBA fans that we actually get to see, you know,
obviously the circumstances are very poor with the Haliburn injury,
but it is cool to see nim Hart have a
chance to be like, oh, can he run his own team?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is he legit?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You know, like one, you know, starting point guard in
the league. I would say, looking at the East and
like it would make sense. You're like, oh, we have
this Achilles injury to our our best player and we'll
losing Miles Turner. You could imagine from an asset management
long term play to be like this is a gap year.
But then when I look at the Pacers roster, I'm like, uh,
you guys are better than a lot of the you know,
(28:24):
like you're still way better than a lot of the East.
With Siakam there, nim Hard and Nie Smith and Matherin
who Rick Carlisle revealed on your podcast that he's going
to be starting this season, like the Pacers are still
I think I'd be surprised if they don't make the postseason.
I feel like they'd have to make a conscious decision
to try to avoid the postseason. So, like, how do
(28:46):
you think they stack up in this again a very
bizarre East where we don't know what we're getting from
the Celtics and there's just a lot of kind of
question marks maybe outside of like the Cavaliers and the Knicks.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, I mean the Pacers and the Celtics are in
somewhat similar situations than that. They're both going to be
navigating and having to find new styles, perhaps new ways
to win with their best player out with these Achilles injuries.
So it's kind of difficult to project what either of
them will do. For me, Like, maybe this is me
being too optimistic with blue and gold glasses on, but
I think it's kind of win win for them, honestly,
(29:22):
because if they do make the postseason, that's going to
tell me that either Andrew or Benedict Mathern or somebody
else on the roster took a really big step forward,
or maybe they're in a better position with their center
by committee approach than people are anticipating that they're going
to be and if they don't, then they're getting a
lottery pick in a year that Tyres didn't play in.
So like either way, But I'm with you. I think
that it's very possible that I would probably project them
(29:44):
to be at the high end of the play in
tournament and that they could get out of the play
in tournament based on the vast amount of postseason experience
that the guys who are going to be playing in
those games have and just might trust in the coaching
staff to be able to scheme up a way to win,
you know, one maybe two game to get into the
playoffs and then be the seventh or eighth seed, I
guess is the way that I would look at it. So, yeah,
(30:05):
I mean, Cleveland and the Knicks clearly have the most
solidified paths here where if one of those two teams
doesn't make the NBA Finals, or whichever one doesn't, I
think that you'd probably be at the point where you
need to make some pretty big changes to those rosters
and look in the mirror at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, I mean, obviously the Magic we're expecting them to
be good, but like the rest of the East.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I mean, I don't know what to make of a Sixers.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That they may like continue to build upward and the
other sixers. Who knows who's better your Pacers or or
Miles Turner's Bucks Pacers are Bucks, which seems better?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I mean, I'm probably I would probably lean towards just
you know, Jannis is probably the best player in the
Eastern Conference. And that's kind of an outdated way to
look at basketball, given the things that we just talked
about that Rick said about, you know, having deeper rosters
being more important. But I'll be honest enough to say,
I don't know if the Bucks are going to be
thrilled with paying fifty million dollars in order to have
(31:02):
Miles Turner on their roster for the entirety of that contract, right,
And this isn't me trying to necessarily throw dirt on Miles,
but I did say it on Twitter, so I guess
I can repeat it here. I think he was the
fourth best defender in the starting lineup for the Pacers
last year. I think he's an upgrade over the current
version of Brook Lopez, for sure, but I do not
think that he's better than the version of brook Lopez
(31:22):
that they want a championship with, and they need him
to be as good or better than the version of
brook Lopez than they want a championship with because they
really don't have a lot of point guard play on
that roster. When I talked about the ways that Tyres
and Rick Carlisle clearly enhanced Miles Turner's game, you can
see it by the numbers in terms of their points
per chance, impact impact in the pick and roll with
(31:43):
you know, Tyres and Miles by comparison to what it
was with Darren Collison, you know, George Hill, everybody else
they had. It's the point that was for me, like
there's a there's a big change when Tyree's came to
be the point guard with Miles and they really don't
have anybody, Like are you relying on Kevin Porter Junior
to be that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure? What happens to the Bucks when Jannis comes off
the floor either, like what what exactly are they at
that point in time?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I think it it might have been Michael Pina for
the ringer who was who was maybe really heavily emphasizing that,
like when Giannis is off the court, the Bucks have
nobody like it's gonna be is.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That Bobby portis like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh, I gotta know, Actually we can wrap up with this.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
What's your opinion on I think this is a Nate
Duncan conspiracy theory that when the Pacers made the trade
to get their draft pick back, they thought there was
a chance Haliburton could get hurt because they made the
trade fortuitously to get their own draft picked back before
Halliburton tears his achilles. Nate Duncan was like, conspiracy theory,
(32:55):
what if they knew something could go wrong.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I think that they did know that something could go wrong.
I think that they were made aware of the risks
of Tyree's continuing to play. I think that they thought
it was a manageable risk. I think also it's very
hard to be like, hey, Tyrese, we've seen the future.
Here's a crystal ball, and if you play in game seven,
you're gonna tear your achilles. You can't guarantee that for him.
(33:18):
So when your franchise player wants to play and he
just saw, hey, I played in game six and nothing
went wrong, and in fact, I didn't even really have
to play in the fourth quarter, And like this is
what I've worked my whole career for. I think it's
very hard to convince that player like, oh, we're going
to save you from yourselves and not play you in
a game seven, and then if they lose in the
game seven, not have him looking you in the eye
every day and being like what if I had played.
(33:40):
I think that they were in a very, very tough
spot there.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
It is one of the wilder.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Conundrums you could encounter if you had the Crystal ball,
and if you could tell any NBA player going into
the Game seven of the NBA Finals that you will
tear your achilles what you woant have? Yeah, that is unbelievable,
where it's like I could maybe I have a chance
of winning a title, and who knows if I ever
get back, and so that I don't know, that is
(34:08):
an unbelievable thank you. Is not that that was the choice,
but still it's Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Think the Tyres would still make the same choice again
if he had it to do over. But that being said,
I don't think that's the reason that they anticipated that
and got their pick back. I think it more had
to do with the stipend rule and just overall, like
we don't necessarily need to have a top lottery pick
right now coming off this run, so we'll kick that
can ahead. They've done those types of moves in the past,
(34:33):
so I'm not buying into the conspiracy theory on that
particular one.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Gotcha all right?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, Caitlyn, thanks so much for coming on spending your
time with me talking about the Pacers. It's so good
to have you back on the show. If you guys
out there went more from Caitlin, you get it at basketball,
she wrote, Go support her Patreon, subscribe to her YouTube page. Caitlyn,
do I have your blessing to launch my next project,
which is going to be called basketball? He wrote in
(35:00):
I cover this short lived NBA career of Tony Roten,
my guy.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Obviously that's a great pawn. I'm in favor of Ponds
And I mean you could also have a podcast called basketball,
they wrote in I bet he could be your co host.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Now we're talking. What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah, that's that's been an next passion project. Anyways, Caitlin,
thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Listeners.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
You want more from me, you can get that at
patreon dot com, slash fast break Breakfast. You guys are
the best, thanks for listening, and remember breakfast is the
most important thing.
All right, and welcome to Fast Break Breakfast MBA podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
My name is Keith Parrish and I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Here once again for the first time in a long
time with the legend Caitlin Cooper Kaylen Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Also.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
First of all, congratulations on all the success you've had
since the last time you were on my show. From
my perspective, it seems like you're blowing up. So what's
it like to be huge?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
First of all, thank you for having me back. It
has been a while. I'm wearing my company branded attire
to show how devoted I am.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Can I tell you that I was pulling up my notes,
which was a Google document on what we're going to
talk about, which again there's not I like to do
random podcasting in honor of the Pacers, random offense where
I don't really schedule out anything we're not calling.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
But I did have my notes up.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I actually hadn't even looked at like the zoom video
to see you're wearing a Fast Break Breakfast T shirt.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm so proud.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is how you feel when Tyres Halliburton wears your merch.
I'm having the same feeling right now. I'm wearing a
John Contar shirt. That's an honor of Indiana.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
That's right. I mean, the Grizzlies do have a lot
of Indiana representation, so I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Less now I think Desmond Bain had a connection. He's gone,
that's true, Rip, No, what's like?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh yeah, I still.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Think I'm fairly niche Yeah, it was very nice that
the Indiana Pacers went to the NBA Finals. That certainly
helped my overall visibility. I suppose when only your team
plays to the final day of the season, that's typically
pretty helpful.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have been begging the Grizzlies to do that to
help me out, and they refuse. They flatly refuse. I'm like,
this would be great for me if you guys can
make the finals like once, but they haven't done it
so far.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
If only they could stay healthy, that would also, I
think be helpful. A few less injury reports.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Maybe, can I tell you we got to get in
a lot of stuff. We actually have to talk about breakfast.
People have been yelling at me for not talking about breakfast.
I'll say I went through a lot of emotions as
a basketball fan watching the unbelievable run of the Indiana Pacers.
As a kid, I loved the Pacers like they were
one of the teams I cheered for. Part of that
was because I always cheered against like Michael Jordan, so
(02:30):
like I'm pulling for, you know, Reggie Miller, and then
like I'm cheering against the Lakers, so I'm pulling for
those like Jalen Rose, you know all that. But there
was some sort of jealousy I had as like a
Grizzlies fan, where I'm like, listen, the Pacers. They had
a worse net rating than the Grizzlies last year, you know,
(02:50):
and so I'm like, in my mind they were not
a contender, and here they are winning round after round,
and I'm like, why not me? But then I got
over the jealousy and I was just super excited. I think,
guess when they faced off for the Knicks, I'm like,
I've my whole life, I'm always checking against the big markets.
So then I was able to lock in enjoy the run,
and then I was broken hearted when they came up
(03:10):
just short.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But it was an unbelievable run.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Before we do your breakfast, the thing I've been wondering
for the longest time, when did you as a Pacers
expert and lifelong fan. When did you realize or think
they could win the title or at least make the finals.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Just overall as a contender. I started feeling a lot
more confident when they beat Boston on the road around January,
because bo Tyres tied his season high for points in
the paint in that game, and obviously Boston tries to
run teams off the three point line because of the
variants that they want to get, but Tyres was a
lot more relentless. His athleticism looked like it was back
(03:57):
where it needed to be, and I was like, this
is turning the corner. Then, when they had the two
game mini series against Cleveland and Tyres ironically ended up
having a tweak of his hamstring and didn't play in
the second half of that game, watching their ball pressure
defense and the effect that they had against Donovan Mitchell
and Darius Garland, I was like, this is something. And
then obviously the March Madness run that they had where
(04:18):
they just kept finding different and probable ways to win
convinced me. But the actual one crystallized moment where I
thought that they could be an NBA Finals team actually
wasn't a game that they played in so Game five
of the Celtics Knicks series, after Jason Tatum had blown
his achilles, I was watching the Knicks. That altered how
(04:40):
the Celtics played, and the Celtics were running, you know,
they had to stack more actions, there was a little
bit more movement in their offense, and the Knicks were
really switching for kind of the first time, like they
did very little switching during the regular season. I don't
think you oftentimes want to be doing something for the
first time in the playoffs, but I was watching their
switches and I was like, there's a lot of confusion
out there. And this Game five, the Celtics ended up
(05:02):
pulling off that win before the Knicks took them out
in six, and I was just like, I don't think
over a seven game series that the Knicks are going
to be able to defend the way that the Indiana
Pacers play. I was very confident that they were going
to win that series. I picked them in six, and
then they went to the NBA Finals. So it was
actually watching how they defended the Celtics without Jason Tatum
that convinced me they were a finals team.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
But somewhere in there, I think you have to bake
in the fact that you guys were rocking the Cavaliers
at that point, you know, like the fact that you
guys were taking care of business, because that was shocking.
I mean, NBA, maybe not to you that, I guess
that's more of what I want to know, because nationally
that was shocking. When you look at like the betting
lines of that series, Cavaliers against the Pacers, that's one
(05:43):
of the bigger upsets we've had in a playoff series.
So going into that, if you can remember back going
into the Pacers Cavaliers series, like what was your confidence
level at that point?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
It was actually fairly high. I did a mailbag podcast
with Samson at the end of the regular season and
somebody was like, are the Pacers that guaranteed second round
out against At the time, most people thought either Cleveland
or Boston, And I said, I liked their bracket. I
liked that they were playing the Bucks and that they
were playing the Calves in the second round. And because
of what I had seen in that two game mini
series back in January and how their defense really affected Cleveland.
(06:18):
And then to the Pacers' credit, they almost changed a
lot of what they did defensively, Cleveland was averaging fewer
passes in that series than the thirtieth ranic team in
the NBA the Pacers because they effectively pulled back all
of their nail help. It pulled back the wheel action
that the Memphis Grizzlies also run that the Calves run
a lot around their pick and roll. That wasn't effective
for the Calves anymore. So it was kind of like
(06:38):
funnel tons of usage to Donovan Mitchell hope that he
runs out of gas at the end of games, which
he did several times. Obviously, he ended up injuring his ankle.
Darius Garland's toe situation was worse than I think a
lot of people thought because he ended up having surgery,
and I still don't think he's necessarily ready to play
right now. I don't know for sure, but I actually
thought that they were going to win the series against Cleveland.
(06:59):
I think that we picked going into it, So it
wasn't as shocking to me as maybe it was from
the outside looking in. And especially because you talked about
the net rating, the Pacers net rating. I had a
meme going throughout the second half of the season where
it was like, you know, the one on the bus
where the guys looking at the sunny side and the
dark side. When the Pacers were playing good basketball teams,
you know, they had one of the best offensive ratings
(07:19):
in the NBA against like Boston, OKC, Cleveland. They were
struggling against the lottery teams. So in terms of their
contender status, that was kind of emboldening me to a degree.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
That's interesting. They're the exact mirror image of the Grizzlies.
The Grizzlies just destroyed every bad team they played last
year and then had a horrible record against good teams. Okay,
now let's go back to the start where we should
have started this show. Your breakfast, Caitlin, you are a
beyond being a blogging podcasting expert.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You have some passions. I feel like the Outshine bars
and then the pop tarts.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Has there been any advances in the technology in the
last couple of years with those two products?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I mean, most recently, I made a popsicle. Samson had
kept saying on our podcast that I needed to watch
the movie The Princess Bride, and I had never seen it,
so in the off season I promised everybody I would
watch it, so I made a Princess bride themed popsicle
that of course was blue lemonade with gummy worms to
try to mimic the shrieking eels that are in that film.
(08:27):
So that obviously was you know, I did it for science,
clearly a big time advancement in the popsicle.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
What realm, Well, now that you've brought us here, what
were your thoughts on the movie or no, No, I'm
more about the movie. This is an all time for me.
It's an all time childhood classic. Got to show it
to my kids in the last I think the last
year or two, and they loved it as well. The
violence at the end a little bit too much for
my seven year old, but I.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Think it pretty intense as well.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
There's a lot of blood for a funny kids movie.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I appreciated the snappy banter quite a lot for similar
reasons to why I like this podcast. Samson knows me
well in terms of what dialogue I like. So, you know,
lines like have fun storm in the Castle and their
reverence they had for their own genre. Yeah, I found
quite endearing.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's really good, are so? But and the popsicle was fine.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
I mean I don't really probably recommend freezing gummy worms.
As you can imagine, they get quite hard.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I would I would tell you as a candy expert,
the gummy candies, which are my favorites, Yeah, they shouldn't
get cold. You only want to refrigerate them. You don't
want them to be he or anything cooled. Yeah, because
they get rock hard and hard to deal with. What
about the pop tart landscape anything like that was the
(09:45):
last time.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, I have a bone to pick with the pop
tart company.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
The prown sugar unfrosted pop tarts have become impossible to find,
which are clearly when you power rank pop tarts number
one on the list, Yes, yes, and they're not at
my grocery stores anymore. You can't find the unfrosted brown
sugar cinnamon pop tarts. This frosted ones, but not the unfrosted.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yet another example of America's real decline. Just the society
crumbling around us.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Can't the kellogg what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
The unfrosted ones in general are hard to find, probably
because they're they're I mean, not everybody knows this, but
the unfrosted ones are actually less healthy than the frosted ones.
Caloric intake. Yes, because the crust has to be thicker
because they don't have the ice thing on the top.
So because the crust is thicker, they actually are higher
in calories. So maybe why they're not on.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
The shelves that that is more shocking than the Pacers
taking the Thunder to seven games.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I mean, if you ask people questions ahead of time,
like which thing do they know? Or would they predict
the Pacers in a Game seven of the NBA Finals,
or which pop tart is more healthy, I'm guessing that
more people will get the pop tart question wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Let's go back to the Pacers, because again, I want
to I want to really luxuriate in this. I if
I call it miraculous, that feels maybe insulting to some degree,
but I still would like to I like continually emphasizing
how rare this occasion was, because throughout my whole lifetime,
your lifetime, usually the teams that make it to the finals,
(11:23):
there's like a short list every season where you're like
one of these handful of teams. And the way the
regular season went, I think in the East We're just like, yeah, yeah,
the Celtics are amazing. And I have a couple of
Celtics friends in my life who like one of them,
I he would ask me like, oh, we lost to
a horrible team. I'm like, who cares. The Celtics are amazing,
(11:44):
Like it's the regular season, it doesn't matter. But then
we saw them start to stumble against the Knicks even
before Tatum's injury, and so like them fading away the
Cavaliers again getting run out of the gym by you
guys made it so remarkable. But then the showdown with
the Thunder. Was this just a team for the Pacers?
Do you think it was a team that just was
actually getting better and better and better month by month?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Was it more of a magical run?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Like how do you explain I guess what happened throughout
the season where the Pacers started the year at one
point and then by the time June rolled around, they
were this juggernaut.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I mean, I think it was a little bit of both.
I made a joke at the time that watching the
Pacers over the back end of that season and throughout
the playoffs was a little bit like, you know, a corny,
cheesy Christmas Movie where they're like, you know, in order
to save Christmas, we have to have more belief, and
then that powered them a little bit more. It was
almost like every time they pulled off, you know, tyres
had his latest clutch shot or what you know, obi
(12:42):
Toppins falling into the corner making a three against the
Timberwolves during the regular season, it was almost like it
was hard for them to believe that they wouldn't be
able to come back and pull off a win because
they had done it so many times, which is something
that TJ almost kind of alluded to and is one
most recent Players Tribute article. So I think there's certainly
some of that. But part of what was allowing them
to get back into those games, which I think went
(13:06):
maybe under discussed a little bit, is like almost every
one of those clutch shots by Tyrese was preceded by
a clutch stop from Andrew Nemhard, and a lot of
times those teams stopped having timeouts available to them to
try to course correct during those situations because of the
Pacers ball pressure defense, because coaches were blowing timeouts because
they couldn't get the ball in bounce, and I think
(13:26):
probably two things like I don't believe in the grand
theory of basketball in terms of like, oh, how is
the rest of the NBA going to mimic the Oklahoma
City Thunder or the Indiana Pacers so that they can
play like them? I think that's pretty debunked by the
fact that, you know, the last seven champions looked nothing
like each other at all. But in the sense that
the NBA's highest average pickup point was last year. After
(13:47):
the Pacers played more ball pressure possessions than any team
in synergies like twelve year database in the playoffs or
I should say second second spectrums twelve year database, the
rest of the NBA started star started mimicking that there's
a lot more ball pressure going on in the NBA
at this point in time over last season. And then
also like the roster construction, which is something that Rick
kind of talked about a little bit on the podcast
(14:08):
and the clip that I put onto Twitter for him,
that like the idea that you have to have deeper rosters.
Of course, you know, it helps when you have Tyrese
Halibert in Pascal siakam is your two top players, but
having you know, ten to eleven rotation players enabled them
to play the high tempo style offensively as well as
their ball pressure defense defensively. More so than having two
(14:30):
guys who get all the touches. The Pacers are a
very quick decision making team. I think when you look
at like their average touch time as a team, it
was the highest in the last five years. They were
second in passes per one hundred possessons last season. It's
very much a hot ball offense, and I think that
some of those are things that the rest of the
NBA might be looking at as to why the Pacers
were able to advance in the way that they were.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I'm almost certain the Grizzlies are going to continually
continue trying to mimic the ball pressure. Like I think
they're going to pick up full court a lot next year,
and then a lot in Summer League. They tried, they
did it some last year. But yeah, I do think
a lot of people are trying to replicate the Pacers.
I also think, and this is funny, I guess like
(15:10):
both the Thunder and the Pacers, it's it's gonna be
hard for teams to point to those rosters as like, oh, yeah,
we should do it that way too. You know, we're
like the Thunder, a very unique situation with the return
from the Paul George trade being able to tank a
couple of years whilst Shaye was still amazing and they
ended up getting you know, you can. I have argued that,
(15:31):
like they could have done it without tanking, because like
the Jaylen Williams pick was most important, Chet Holmgren very important.
Of course they tanked for that one, but like the Thunder,
is hard to replicate the Pacers one.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I honestly feel it might be bad.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
For small market teams to point like where the owners
or the gms can point to the Pacers and be like, see,
look they they don't go into the tax. They traded
for a couple of guys, I mean, trading for your guys.
I feel like the Knicks and the Pacers, I'm in
awe of how they built their teams because they didn't
do it maybe the traditional way, Like it wasn't drafted guys.
(16:05):
It was it was mainly we identified players to go
and trade for or sign a free agency and then
like the free agent signings that like like getting Nie Smith,
what an incredible get, and then nim hard like that
working out, you know, like it seems hard to replicate that,
you know, to bring in and over top and the like,
have all your salaries fit just perfectly.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Although I know, and again my worry is now every.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Smaller market team is going to say we don't need
to pay the text we could be the Pacers.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Or the fact that maybe the draft is less important
to an extent because when the passc the Oakham trade
happened and the return got put out there. You know,
obviously the Raptors got several first round picks from the Pacers,
but at the time, I was like, oh, they got
Pascal without giving up Andrew Nemhore, Benedict Madder and Jarris Walker,
you know, any of their recent high lottery endpicks or
Andrew Nemhoard. And I was like, I don't like this
(17:00):
is probably gonna sound a little bit blunt, but like,
I don't really care that they gave up those picks
because when you look at their recent draft history, the
only players that they've signed a second year contracts since
Miles Turner are Andrew Nemhart and now Isaiah Jackson coming
off an Achilles injury. Like, if you look at at
the rest of what those picks were it's a pretty
spotty record, but they've been tremendous with their pro scouting
(17:21):
department and identifying players, like you said with Aaron E. Smith,
with Obi Toppin, of guys that you know, might not
have worked out in their previous situations, whether because of
roster crunch or the style of play, who could really
elevate their games with the Pacers and shine in a
different way that maybe they previously haven't. So they've largely
built this, you know, looking at that their starting lineup,
it's almost entirely trades other than the fact that Miles
(17:42):
Turner had been there for ten years, and then obviously
they drafted Andrew as well high in the second round.
But it's not it's not really a roster built through
the draft that much.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Is Jay Huff the next player that identified that they
went to.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Diamond in the Yeah we done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
If Jay Huff absolutely destroys in the Indiana, I guess
I'll be sad.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But uh, I wasn't that broken up about it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Uh. Let's let's actually talk about Miles Turner and we'll
do that after a quick break, all right, Caitlin, So
after you know, the thrilling run to the finals. Of course,
there's the devastating Halliburton injury in Game seven, and then
(18:32):
going into the off season, there's this question of whether
or not Miles Turner comes back. In a sort of
surprising twist, the Bucks wave and stretched Damian Lillard to
acquire him in free agency, and if you believe what
the front office said from the Pacers, they were they
didn't anticipate this coming. What are your thoughts on Miles
(18:53):
Turner this I'm guessing he was easily the longest tindered Pacer, Like, uh,
what are your thoughts on Miles Turner moving.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
On after the season and going to the rival Bucks.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
When I recorded the end of the season podcast, somebody
had asked, like, what do you think about Miles Turner
being extended after his performance in the Eastern Conference Finals
in the finals, And my opinion was kind of that
maybe the Tyres injury opened up the possibility that both
sides might have slight change of heart. You know, from
(19:26):
the Pacers' perspective, it sounds like they intended to resign him,
other than the fact that, like you said, they got
surprised by the fact that the Bucks suddenly cleared enough
cap space to make what offer that they made to him.
But I do think that there's something there in terms
of Miles Turner was very good for them in the
regular season and even the early rounds of the playoffs.
But going back to the Eastern Conference Finals a year
ago against Boston, looking at that Knick series, looking at
(19:47):
the Thunder series, he had more turnovers in those series
than he had made three pointers, which is problematic. Against
Boston a year ago, he led the team in turnovers,
and some of that goes to the fact that the
Boston Celtics were cross matching Jason Tatum on too Myles
Turner for a large portion of that series. There were
times where Derek White was successful as standing him up
(20:10):
in the post and kind of you know, even blocking
him once in the post against autopilot post moves. Boston
and Oka See defend very differently, but in terms of
both of their abilities to do cross matching and switching
without him necessarily punishing it, it was really there. And okay,
see was always going to be a series that was
going to be more difficult for Tyrese because it's kind
of the antithesis of how he plays. In terms of
(20:31):
their ability to really take away the paint in how
much they load up at the elbows in the blocks
in order to crack that. Tyrese wasn't getting into the
paint anymore often. In fact, it was slightly less often
with Miles on the floor than off the floor. Despite
the fact that people see him as like the prototypical
stretch five, it wasn't necessarily stretching okay C's defense, and
if he got a switch on to Shay, it wasn't
(20:53):
like he was using a quick swim move to punish it.
At the same time, he's not necessarily a guy who
has a lot of screencraft. And that's fine during the
regular season because Tyrese is one of the leaders in
you know, screen rejections per one hundred posessions. He doesn't
use a lot of screens. But when you're playing a
very handsy, physical defense like OKC, he needed that. And
it's very easy to see the ways that Tyrese enhances
(21:15):
Miles Turner's game. It hasn't always been as clear to
see the way that Miles Turner enhances Tyrese's game, and
that may matter even more when Tyree's eventually comes back
from this Achilles injury. So I was probably a little
bit different than the fan base at large in terms
of the fact that I thought that this season kind
of presents the Pacers with an opportunity to perhaps take
a step back to later take a bigger step forward,
(21:37):
potentially with a different center who can help them in
some of those later rounds of the playoffs in ways
that Miles just didn't over the last two years. And
there is some stuff there because I know he was
slightly dealing with, you know, back spasms in Game four
against Boston, and he was sick at one point during
the Finals against the Thunder, but that doesn't fully explain
some of the rebounding stuff against the Knicks, and just
some different ways where I think that they need a
(21:59):
little bit of an upgrade at that position overall. So
it was very surprising that the Milwaukee Bucks stretched Damian
Lillard and that that is what team Miles Turner went to.
And I don't think it's exactly you know, tremendous asset
management that he ended up walking for nothing despite that
surprise that they weren't able to do a sign and
trade with some other team or even with the Bucks
to try to get something in return. But I can't
(22:21):
see a path forward where they could eventually, you know,
make an upgrade at that position that actually helps ty
recent ways that weren't necessarily here the last two seasons.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, I understand how it could benefit the Pacers long term,
but it also fits so clearly into the box of like, oh,
of course they were going to pay Miles Turner, because
that was the criticism going in where it's like, oh,
the Pacers actually made the finals, so maybe now they'll
finally pay the luxury tax to keep Miles Turner. And
then it's like, oh, what a big surprise. They actually
(22:53):
didn't do it. And I know, of course there's extenuating circumstances.
The Haliburton injury does perhaps give permission where everyone like, oh,
you know, but I get it now, like that that
kind of makes sense. Looking at his stats from those
the finals and the conference finals, like you said, he
averaged two turnovers and one three pointer made per game.
I'll say, as someone who doesn't watch the Pacers every
game in the regular season, but you know, in the playoffs,
(23:15):
I'm watching him game by game. One of the most
common things I was talking to with other basketball fans
was like, is Miles Turner okay, because he seems so
slow and he wasn't shooting very well in those series.
Now that Miles has gone and with the Halliburton injury,
what are the expectations for this season are they? I mean,
(23:36):
there's still a lot of talent on the roster, but
there's the gaping hole that Haliburton filled. And also, I mean,
how many games were swung just on miracle Haliburton plays.
You know, It's like there feels like a pretty high number.
So what what are the Pacers doing for this upcoming year?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think your answer is probably as good as mine.
I mean, I think that they want to be They're
going to start the season, I'm sure trying to be
as competitive as possible, come off what run they just had.
We'll see how that goes. But it's a little bit
hard for me to project because if you look to
the start of last season, when they got to the
point of the break for the NBA Cup, which they
weren't in because they lost all four of their Cup games,
(24:14):
they were ten and fifteen at that point, they ranked
nineteenth offensively, nineteenth defensively, And when you look at the
reason why, a lot of the fingers for lack of
better terms can be pointed at the fact that Tyresse
wasn't himself over that stretch of play, their offense was
very much impacting why their defense was as poor as
it was. In addition to the fact that Andrew dem
Hard and Aarond Smithy where they're you know, two of
(24:34):
their best point of attack defenders along with Ben schepperd
just weren't available. That certainly wasn't helpful, But their turnover
rate was much higher once they cut back on the turnovers,
once they were making more shots, once their offense got
back to being what their offense is capable of being.
With Tyresse, their defense followed hand in hand because you know,
when you make more shots and you aren't turning the
ball over, it's easier to set your ball pressure defense.
So both things, you know, ended up feeding into each
(24:57):
other in a way where it was like a vicious
negative feedback loop over the those first roughly twenty five games.
So when I look at that, I know, over those
series of games that like, yeah, Tyrese wasn't himself, but
Tyrese was still on the court and a lot of
teams were still face guarding him. Ninety four feet, including
the Memphis Grizzlies, where like I'm watching them play possessions
four on four repeatedly that are opening things up for
Andrew nemhore in Pascal Siakam just by virtue of Tyree's
(25:19):
standing on the basketball court. So I'm really wondering what
does all of that look like. How does the gravity
and the tension and the defense change when Tyreese not
only you know, it's not just gonna be limited Tyresse,
it's gonna be no Tyrese. So I mean, I think
that they already know how valuable he was to the franchise.
I think they're gonna find it out a little bit
more when he isn't playing. And certainly, like this isn't
(25:40):
completely new for Pascal. He's been a number one option before,
and he's been a number one option in a very
cramped half court offense for the Toronto Raptors with you know,
Yaka pertl and Scottie Barnes and Dennis Shrewder running points.
So he knows how to be, you know, a piece
of paper that can slide through a crack in the door.
I'm not overly concerned about him and him potentially seeing
War Defenders as a number one option. But I think
(26:01):
the biggest question that I have in all of this
is who is the Andrew Nemhard for Andrew Nemhard, Because
I don't have doubt of Andrew Nemhard's guile running the
pick and roll. And there were games last year, they
were even series where Andrew Nemhard ran more pick and
roll against the Cleveland Cavaliers than Tyree did because Isaacacorro
and Max Shrews were faced guarding Tyres to the degree
that he was. But again, that's Andrew getting to run
pick and roll four on four with Tyrese practically spacing
(26:23):
out to the logo not doing it. While you know,
two game mini series last year, Andrew Nemhard's playing the
Atlanta Hawks, Tyres is out, Dyson Daniels is guarding Andrew
for an entire game and ducking under every screen because
Andrew doesn't take a lot of pull up threes. And
then at the other end, Andrew's still having to guard
Trey Young, and he's picking Trey Young up fifty feet Like,
I don't know another point guard. Maybe you can think
(26:44):
of one off the top of your head. Who is
gonna get asked next season, Hey, you're gonna be our
primary ballhandler. There's not really gonna be another ball handler
in the starting lineup as there was with Tyrese and
Andrew a year ago. And you're gonna guard the other
team's best player, and you're also going to apply fifty
feet of pressure every possession that you do it.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, that's a really that's a really big it's a
hard ask. I'm racking my brain. I can't think of it.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And if people just to add on, if people remember
the NBA Finals Game five, Andrew looked completely gassed because
Tyrese had injured his calf. In that game, Tyrese was
basically just a decoy. He's running all the offense and
he's guarding Shay and he's picking him up. Andrew ends
up having like three turnovers in the fourth quarter. And
the big adjustment the Pacers made after that game was, Hey,
we're gonna pull back the full court pressure and try
(27:27):
to you know, surprise Oka see by picking them up
at you know, half court three point line rather than
full court and try to preserve Andrew nemhard to run offense.
It worked very well for them, and every game isn't
going to be Game five against OKAC, But the Pacers
are going to have to find a way that every
game isn't Game five against OKAC for Andrew Nemhard because
I believe in him as a player, but a very
very big ask.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I mean it also seems cool in a way as
NBA fans that we actually get to see, you know,
obviously the circumstances are very poor with the Haliburn injury,
but it is cool to see nim Hart have a
chance to be like, oh, can he run his own team?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is he legit?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You know, like one, you know, starting point guard in
the league. I would say, looking at the East and
like it would make sense. You're like, oh, we have
this Achilles injury to our our best player and we'll
losing Miles Turner. You could imagine from an asset management
long term play to be like this is a gap year.
But then when I look at the Pacers roster, I'm like, uh,
you guys are better than a lot of the you know,
(28:24):
like you're still way better than a lot of the East.
With Siakam there, nim Hard and Nie Smith and Matherin
who Rick Carlisle revealed on your podcast that he's going
to be starting this season, like the Pacers are still
I think I'd be surprised if they don't make the postseason.
I feel like they'd have to make a conscious decision
to try to avoid the postseason. So, like, how do
(28:46):
you think they stack up in this again a very
bizarre East where we don't know what we're getting from
the Celtics and there's just a lot of kind of
question marks maybe outside of like the Cavaliers and the Knicks.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, I mean the Pacers and the Celtics are in
somewhat similar situations than that. They're both going to be
navigating and having to find new styles, perhaps new ways
to win with their best player out with these Achilles injuries.
So it's kind of difficult to project what either of
them will do. For me, Like, maybe this is me
being too optimistic with blue and gold glasses on, but
I think it's kind of win win for them, honestly,
(29:22):
because if they do make the postseason, that's going to
tell me that either Andrew or Benedict Mathern or somebody
else on the roster took a really big step forward,
or maybe they're in a better position with their center
by committee approach than people are anticipating that they're going
to be and if they don't, then they're getting a
lottery pick in a year that Tyres didn't play in.
So like either way, But I'm with you. I think
that it's very possible that I would probably project them
(29:44):
to be at the high end of the play in
tournament and that they could get out of the play
in tournament based on the vast amount of postseason experience
that the guys who are going to be playing in
those games have and just might trust in the coaching
staff to be able to scheme up a way to win,
you know, one maybe two game to get into the
playoffs and then be the seventh or eighth seed, I
guess is the way that I would look at it. So, yeah,
(30:05):
I mean, Cleveland and the Knicks clearly have the most
solidified paths here where if one of those two teams
doesn't make the NBA Finals, or whichever one doesn't, I
think that you'd probably be at the point where you
need to make some pretty big changes to those rosters
and look in the mirror at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, I mean, obviously the Magic we're expecting them to
be good, but like the rest of the East.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I mean, I don't know what to make of a Sixers.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That they may like continue to build upward and the
other sixers. Who knows who's better your Pacers or or
Miles Turner's Bucks Pacers are Bucks, which seems better?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I mean, I'm probably I would probably lean towards just
you know, Jannis is probably the best player in the
Eastern Conference. And that's kind of an outdated way to
look at basketball, given the things that we just talked
about that Rick said about, you know, having deeper rosters
being more important. But I'll be honest enough to say,
I don't know if the Bucks are going to be
thrilled with paying fifty million dollars in order to have
(31:02):
Miles Turner on their roster for the entirety of that contract, right,
And this isn't me trying to necessarily throw dirt on Miles,
but I did say it on Twitter, so I guess
I can repeat it here. I think he was the
fourth best defender in the starting lineup for the Pacers
last year. I think he's an upgrade over the current
version of Brook Lopez, for sure, but I do not
think that he's better than the version of brook Lopez
(31:22):
that they want a championship with, and they need him
to be as good or better than the version of
brook Lopez than they want a championship with because they
really don't have a lot of point guard play on
that roster. When I talked about the ways that Tyres
and Rick Carlisle clearly enhanced Miles Turner's game, you can
see it by the numbers in terms of their points
per chance, impact impact in the pick and roll with
(31:43):
you know, Tyres and Miles by comparison to what it
was with Darren Collison, you know, George Hill, everybody else
they had. It's the point that was for me, like
there's a there's a big change when Tyree's came to
be the point guard with Miles and they really don't
have anybody, Like are you relying on Kevin Porter Junior
to be that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure? What happens to the Bucks when Jannis comes off
the floor either, like what what exactly are they at
that point in time?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I think it it might have been Michael Pina for
the ringer who was who was maybe really heavily emphasizing that,
like when Giannis is off the court, the Bucks have
nobody like it's gonna be is.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That Bobby portis like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh, I gotta know, Actually we can wrap up with this.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
What's your opinion on I think this is a Nate
Duncan conspiracy theory that when the Pacers made the trade
to get their draft pick back, they thought there was
a chance Haliburton could get hurt because they made the
trade fortuitously to get their own draft picked back before
Halliburton tears his achilles. Nate Duncan was like, conspiracy theory,
(32:55):
what if they knew something could go wrong.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I think that they did know that something could go wrong.
I think that they were made aware of the risks
of Tyree's continuing to play. I think that they thought
it was a manageable risk. I think also it's very
hard to be like, hey, Tyrese, we've seen the future.
Here's a crystal ball, and if you play in game seven,
you're gonna tear your achilles. You can't guarantee that for him.
(33:18):
So when your franchise player wants to play and he
just saw, hey, I played in game six and nothing
went wrong, and in fact, I didn't even really have
to play in the fourth quarter, And like this is
what I've worked my whole career for. I think it's
very hard to convince that player like, oh, we're going
to save you from yourselves and not play you in
a game seven, and then if they lose in the
game seven, not have him looking you in the eye
every day and being like what if I had played.
(33:40):
I think that they were in a very, very tough
spot there.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
It is one of the wilder.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Conundrums you could encounter if you had the Crystal ball,
and if you could tell any NBA player going into
the Game seven of the NBA Finals that you will
tear your achilles what you woant have? Yeah, that is unbelievable,
where it's like I could maybe I have a chance
of winning a title, and who knows if I ever
get back, and so that I don't know, that is
(34:08):
an unbelievable thank you. Is not that that was the choice,
but still it's Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Think the Tyres would still make the same choice again
if he had it to do over. But that being said,
I don't think that's the reason that they anticipated that
and got their pick back. I think it more had
to do with the stipend rule and just overall, like
we don't necessarily need to have a top lottery pick
right now coming off this run, so we'll kick that
can ahead. They've done those types of moves in the past,
(34:33):
so I'm not buying into the conspiracy theory on that
particular one.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Gotcha all right?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, Caitlyn, thanks so much for coming on spending your
time with me talking about the Pacers. It's so good
to have you back on the show. If you guys
out there went more from Caitlin, you get it at basketball,
she wrote, Go support her Patreon, subscribe to her YouTube page. Caitlyn,
do I have your blessing to launch my next project,
which is going to be called basketball? He wrote in
(35:00):
I cover this short lived NBA career of Tony Roten,
my guy.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Obviously that's a great pawn. I'm in favor of Ponds
And I mean you could also have a podcast called basketball,
they wrote in I bet he could be your co host.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Now we're talking. What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah, that's that's been an next passion project. Anyways, Caitlin,
thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Listeners.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
You want more from me, you can get that at
patreon dot com, slash fast break Breakfast. You guys are
the best, thanks for listening, and remember breakfast is the
most important thing.
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Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com