A Real Mensch on the Bench

On this episode, Sam Dubin and Beverly Liss are honored to welcome The Honorable Bernard Friedman to the pod.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Detroit is committedto taking care of the needs of the
Jewish people in building a vibrant Jewishfuture in Metro Detroit, in Israel and
around the world. Hi, Everyone'sSam Duban Here. Just a quick note
before the podcast. We're excited toannounce a new collaboration with the Detroit Jewish
News to collaborate on columns and segmentsand really spotlight those in the community.

(00:23):
Today we're in conversation with Aaron andWinnie Krieger to talk about how they met.
You can read all about Aaron andWinnie in the Detroit Jewish News.
Head to the Jewish News dot comand type in Aaron and Winnie Krieger in
the search bar. But for now, sit back, relax, and enjoy
today's episode of FEDERATEDO Detroit. Theviews and opinions of guests on our program

(00:46):
are theirs alone and not intended torepresent the Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Detroit.
Hello and welcome to Federatedio Detroit.You're on air community for all things Jewish
in and around Metro Detroit. I'mSam Dubin. Join with my co host
Federation's immediate past President Beverly List.Beverly, It's so good to see you.

(01:06):
I am, of course, yetagain, really dying for some fell
intel. So how are you.I'm great, But you know what I'm
going to kind of doing a littleabbreviated because I'm so interested in hearing your
cavelle and what you hit and whatyou've been up to. Sam. Mine
isn't so much a cavell, it'sa tell. I was watching a CBS

(01:26):
morning show the other morning and somethingreally struck me. There was a man
named Sean Warner who's from Texas,and he is an author, first time
novelist, and he was trying tosell some books, and so he had
a table set up in a Krogeroutside of Dallas. He was just sitting

(01:52):
there with his books by himself,and nobody was coming up to him.
And a gentleman walked by him,was running in to get something and you
know, paid and then looked atthe man again and he was still sitting
by himself. So the man walkedup to him, who happens to be
a TikTok person and started talking tohim and said, do you mind if

(02:17):
I take a video of you andpost it and talk about your book that
you're written, et cetera. Andthis man Sean said, no, go
ahead. Come to find out thathe got somewhere like upwards of seventeen million
hits on his TikTok page and hemade Sean Warner and his book, which

(02:46):
is it's called Lee Howard and theGhost of Simmons Pierce Manner, and it's
number one best seller on Amazon andnumber one on New York Times. And
this man was asked why did hedo this? And he said, you
know, I just wanted to makethis man who seemed like he was sitting

(03:07):
at this card table with a stackof books and not smiling and not looking
very happy, happy and put asmile on his face. And that just
struck me because I just think whatthe world needs more our acts of loving
kindness. And this was truly anact of loving kindness. Put this Sean
Warner on the maps and he's nowworking on a sequel to that book.

(03:31):
And so I'm going to challenge you, Sam and Tim and all of our
listeners to maybe put ourselves out thereif it's smiling as we walked down the
street at somebody that's not smiling andjust say hello, even though we don't
know them. Whatever it is thatwe think we can bring shine a light
on someone in this world that sometimeswe think, you know, isn't so

(03:55):
kind to people in our community.So that's my challenge and that's my tale.
So let's put it out there andsee what happens, and if any
of our listeners want to let usknow for next month, we'll say what
you've done, and we'll be soproud to do that challenge accepted, I'll
start tonight. I'm my way home. You know, it's funny that you

(04:17):
say that, and I love thesentiment and I love that story. So
Le and I moved to New York, as we discussed last month on the
podcast, I'm keeping my job here, so my connection to Detroit is still
very strong. I'm actually in DetroitMetro Detroit right now recording this. But
nonetheless, we moved to New Yorkon Long Island Port Washington area. For

(04:42):
those of you who might be alittle bit familiar with the geography, So
when you're saying to walk by peopleand smile, now experiencing New York City
a few times since I've been there, they don't do that there. So
I think they need that message inNew York City more than we need it
here in metri Detroit. Nonetheless,I think we could all use more smiles.

(05:02):
So Lyle I moved, and Ithink I might have mentioned last time
that my grand idea in moving wasa bit of a d I y move.
So rather than higher movers, Iwould move everything myself in U haul
trailer. So I have an SUV. I would hook up the trailer to

(05:23):
my suv and drive the nine orso hours I mean a lot more,
with all the stops to New York, file yourself or with with Lyle.
With Lyle, so the idea isthat I would drive about halfway and then
he would drive the latter half becausehe knows those New York streets much better
than I do. So from thebeginning he wasn't feeling well, and Lyle,

(05:46):
I mean barely ever, gets sickas in queasy. And so halfway
through we're driving through Pennsylvania and throughthe mountains and the elevation, and Lyle
keeps getting he keeps feeling worse,and I have my hands grips so tight
on the steering wheel because I don'thave a big suv, and the weight
of the trailer behind me through thesenarrow roads through the mountains. I was

(06:13):
thinking how grateful I would be oncewe got there. So Lyle was not
well enough to drive, so Ihad to drive the whole way, not
knowing New York streets, new YorkCity streets, and then going over the
George Washington Bridge. I have afear of heights over bridges, so that
was fearful. And then this asall of that Canadian wildfire smoke was coming

(06:38):
in, so it was hazy.You could feel it through the car.
I gotta tell you, I madeit. Thank God, I made it
to Long Island. Oh, andthen we got I don't know, for
those of you who don't know,on the parkways on Long Island you can't
drive trucks through the parkways. Now, we avoided the parkways because the overpasses

(06:58):
are too low. We avoided theparkways, but then we got into another
road that said no trucks allowed.I didn't think I was a truck,
but I don't think I was supposedto be there with the U haul.
So I was very grateful to havemade it. On the other side,
when I got there, I neverdone it before. I kissed the ground.
I kissed the ground. It wasmore than a figure of speech.
I'm a very hygienic person. Iwiped down the airplane before I everything.

(07:23):
I did not care at that moment. I was so grateful to be there
and to kind of overcome I guessa sort of fear that I had going
into that drive. So I don'tknow what does that, Beverly, what
does that represent? What's the takeawayfrom that? I feel like there's a
lesson in that in that somewhere.I'm not sure. Maybe you shouldn't be

(07:44):
driving U hauls. I'm done,I'm done, this will never happen.
There was small parkways And why didyou have to go through the city.
No, not through the city,but through the through the highways through the
city, so through New Jersey andthrough all I didn't have to go through.
Nonetheless, you're right, this doesnot have to be a deep intellectual
exercise. This is I will neveragain drive a U haul trailer. Right,

(08:05):
And I was getting queasy listening toyou, yeah and hearing this.
I I can just feel how musthave been for him, poor thing.
We're going to bring in our guestsin just a moment. But I will
say this. We've adjusted very nicelyto New York. Our home is lovely,
and we're making it a home,and we're making it at home together.
And for anyone who's you know,kind of moved in with a partner,

(08:28):
I mean we've been living, youknow, we've been visiting each other
a lot. But it's definitely there'sa learning curve, and that learning curve
I think has I don't think,I know, has brought us closer together
in ways that you really I reallydidn't know about until living with him.
So it's thank god, it's it'sbeen a positive experience. Good no red

(08:50):
flags, no red flax, Nope, all right on that note, A
true honor to have with us today. Judge Bernard Friedman Judge Freedman is the
senior US District Judge of the USDistrict Court of the Eastern District of Michigan.
Judge Freedman was appointed by President Reaganas a US District Judge for the

(09:11):
Eastern District of Michigan in June ofnineteen eighty eight, and Judge Freedman was
elevated to chief Judge in two thousandand four and served in that capacity until
two thousand and nine, at whichtime he became a senior judge, and
two thousand nine, Chief Justice JohnRoberts appointed Judge Freedman to a three year
term of service on the Information TechnologyCommittee of the Judicial Conference of the United

(09:35):
States. Judge Freedman ruled on theDubor Rouse same sex adoption case in twenty
fourteen, which notably overturned Michigan samesex marriage band and eventually paid the way
for the legalization of same sex marriagein the US. Judge Freedman is married
to Rosanne, a psychologist, andthey have two children and six grandchildren,

(09:58):
a resume that is long and impressive, and that is why we are so
honored to have Judge Bernard Freedman onthe show today. Judge Freedman, welcome,
Yes, thank you so much forbeing your Judge Freedman. It's truly
an honor. Both Sam and Ihad made a list of different people that
we felt we would want for ourpodcasts, people that we felt were an

(10:20):
interest to our Jewish community and otherwisein secular community as well, and you
were at the top of the list. So so happy that we finally got
to have you on our podcast.I know that you were at district judge
on the forty eighth District Court.I hope I wasn't in front of you

(10:41):
for any traffic tickets or anything whenyou were sitting at the forty eighth District
Court. Then you were given alifetime appointment by President Reagan, and I
was just wondering, how how didthat come to be? And did you
know that was that you were goingto get that appointment? And was it
something that you had always hoped wouldhappened to you? And I know it's

(11:05):
sequence questions, but how how didyou put yourself in line for that or
was that something you do or justsitting on your bench at forty eighth District
in and half not quite. It'sfunny because I think everybody that's ever gone
to law school and you read thecases, the district court cases, the

(11:26):
federal cases. I don't know anybodythat tells the truth, it doesn't close
their eyes and dream about being adistrict judge. I mean I didn't law
I dreamed about being a judge.I dreamed about being a lawyer. And
it all was so coincidental, youknow, you started at the beginning.
I became the accidental Republican because RonaldReagan appointed me. And that's a whole

(11:50):
story how I became a Republican.I did a favor for somebody that was
a good friend of mine who wasrunning, Jim Brickley, who was running
for lieutenant governor. And he said, I don't know how to raise funds,
and I got to do something fromthe party. We do me a
favor. And I had a client, which was a lot the police officers
Detroit, the lieutenant and sergeants andmany police officers that were always endorsing only

(12:13):
Democrats. He said, you gottaget me an endorsement. So you know,
I don't know if I can,I'll try. So I went to
the meeting and I explained to themJim and I were friends. Is a
great guy. He's running with Milickand it's also a fantastic guy, and
it's about time that you at leastendorsed with help with. So they agreed
to do it, and so peoplethen thought that I was a Republican because

(12:35):
number one, I got that endorsement. Number two is after that. The
next thing, of course that comesin politics, is he wanted me to
raise money, and I had neverraise money. I've never been a you
know, I grew up in ademocratic family, totally the most liberal family
around, and certainly never raise money, never thought about raising money. Don't
like to ask people for money.And he again persuaded me to do so,

(13:00):
and we had a big party andyou know, raise money for him.
So the world thought I was aRepublican. So I became the accidental
Republican. Jim gets elected and thenthere's an opening in the forty eighth Distrecord
and the truth of the matter isI love the law, but hated dealing
with clients. I mean, Ijust couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand

(13:22):
building. And my partner saying,hey, the only build four hours,
you put six, And I said, how could I bill six? Anyhow?
I hated that's kind of kind ofit. And the position came up
in the forty eighth distrectcord and Inever even thought about it before. I
said, well, Jim Brickley owesme a favor, and so I called
him and I said, Jim,I really would like that job. And

(13:45):
he only pays forty two thousand dollarshere I said, I don't care what
it pays. I said, Idon't have to, you know, worry
about it. You know, it'sa great job. And then I'll make
a long story short. You know, I put my name in. I
got dat a committee. I gotit was I was on that list for
the committee and the militant appointed toforty eight. That even made me more

(14:05):
of a Republican. Now again,just the position came up for a US
Courts and they were having a committee, and I said, what do I
have to lose. I'll throw myname in the committee. I felt out
the application and I put my name, and I got interviewed, and loan
behold, I had eight names andI was one of them. And one

(14:26):
of the people on the committee,who was a friend of mine, said,
hey, we want you to knowthat you're a throwaway and you're not
going to get it. Your politicsare different than the administration here, but
we're putting your name and we haveto have some bailance. I said,
this is great to make again,to make the story a long story short.
So one one position came up,and of course I didn't get it.

(14:48):
I went to got interviewed at theDepartment of Justice, and then another
one came up. You know,they were down to seven names. I
got interviewed in the Department of Justiceagain, and I didn't get it.
And so one day I ran intothe judges that got it in Barbara hack
Even. We started talking and shesaid, who'd you an interviewed by it?

(15:09):
And I said, you know thisperson? This person? She said,
you don't have a chance to letsyou get interviewed by Stephen Markman.
Stephen Markman, does you know itbecame a Supreme Court justice and Michigan and
I said, okay, so Iwent. Then another one came up,
and I went to Washington, cameback and do what. I didn't get
it because I didn't see Stephen Markman. And then I you know, when

(15:33):
you're up for you know, evenconsideration, you look at all the judges.
Who's dying, who's retiring, youknow all that, how's their health?
I mean, I wasn't the onlyone that did it. The other
five people that are on the list, we all did it. You know,
is there another one? None ofus thought there was another one.
And it was done. And thisis where the Jewish community came in because

(15:54):
during that whole time, I wouldI would call people that lots of people
didn't even know, and you know, asking me for support, and the
main one was ed Levy, anded Levy invited me out to have lunch
with him, and he became myrabbi. To be honest, he believed
in me, and he was veryactive in the Republican Party. And ed

(16:19):
introduced me to CONGRESSM. Broomfield,and they were very close because of the
Republican connection, and they had someother connection, and he enterest me to
him, and I every time Iforty eight is in Birmingham, Blomfield,
every time we had a courtroom indowntown Birmingham. Every time I was there,
I stopped by Congress in Bluefield's office. He wasn't there, so hello,

(16:41):
I would send him Christmas part youknow, just keep my mind.
And then one day, just beforeThanksgiving, I get a call from Congress
from Broomfield. He says, there'sgoing to be an opening. I couldn't
know who's opening. It turns outthat Robert Demascio decided he was to take
senior status, and when the judgetakes senior status, it's an opening,

(17:03):
he says, but you have tobe in to interview with Stephen Markman.
It was like two days later,and so this is great. So I
flew to Washington, got interviewed byStephen Markman. They submitted only one name
to the president. It was mine. And the reason was is that Groufield
was the senior most Republican congress personand we didn't have a Republican senator,

(17:30):
so he was the gatekeeper. Butall the years he was there, he
never cared about the judicial He neverHe always just let somebody else do it.
But because of the fact that Iwas in his district, because of
the fact that ed Levy was supportingme, he decided for the first time

(17:52):
in his long career that he wasgoing to move out of his normal position,
which was the National Intelligence and dosomething judiciary. So he called the
White House and said, this fellowsin my district, this is what I
want. So I get a callfrom Markland and that was all good and

(18:12):
good. But the next thing Iheard was the Senate, which was under
the control of the Democrats at thattime. Joe Biden was the committee chair
of the Judicial Committee, and soI had to get a hearing. Otherwise
there's you know, they start notapproving judicial appointments, but each party always

(18:37):
does that, and they said,if you don't get before that committee in
the next couple of weeks it's calledwas forgetting So then I, you know,
what do I do? How doI get on the committee? And
again this is a connection to theJewish community, and the connection was David
Hermlin. Well, I didn't knowDavid Hermlin, but David Hermlin apparently knew

(18:59):
Joe Biden very well, because I'mtold and it is true, he was
the first one in the Holy UnitedStates to throw a party for Biden when
Biden was thinking about running and thenhad a health scare couldn't do it,
so it was no problem. SoEd Levy and a couple of other people
in the Jewish community, and itwas totally because of the Jewish community talked

(19:22):
to David Hermlin and the next thingI know is I get a call from
David Hermlin and his playing and hesays, you're going to get a call
from the Senior Aid to the SenatorBiden and they're going to set up a
day for you to come to theSenate and have you have your hearing.
A couple hours later, Richard Kaufman, I think, isn't something like that,

(19:45):
calls me and he says Senator Bidenone too at the committee was like
within two weeks, and you know, of course I was really anxious.
And then the next thing that happenedwas I get a call from the Democratic
aid or console to the committee andhe says to me, you're not going
to get to prove you better watchout because you were the attorney in a

(20:07):
case where Judge Damon Keith criticized yourfirm and you and it was what it
was. It was the Detroit's policelieutenancent sergeant's case against the City of Detroit
for a firmative action, and JudgeKeith was the judge. And we filed

(20:29):
the motion to disqualify him because werepresent the Lieu Tennis and sergeants and they
knew where he was all the time, and he spent many many many hours
at Coleman Young's house, and ColemanYoung sent many many hours at his house.
We had an all documented. Sowe filed the motions saying the relationship
is too close and therefore anyhow hewrote a scaiding opinion saying that we were

(20:51):
a racist and so forth, andthey said you better be prepared for that
case. Well, Judge, Ithink you I think you opened up at
least twenty follow up questions. No, that's perfect. That's the type of
guest we we enjoy on this show. I'm gonna just take out a quick
step back for our audience and I'llspare you the burden of education. Let

(21:17):
me just tell our audience, andI had to do some research myself on
this, that the federal court systemhas three different levels. So there's the
district courts, which is judge whereyou're a judge, which is the trial
court, their circuit courts, whichare the first level of appeal, and
then the Supreme Court of the UnitedStates the final level of appeal in the

(21:38):
federal system. So with that said, I just kind of wanted to break
that down for our audience. Iwanted to go back to what you said
about being the accidental Republican. Ithink that's really fascinating, and I think,
at least my perception is is thatoftentimes we hear Republican appointed judge or
Democrat appointed judge, and I feellike a lot of people put Steake in

(22:00):
that. So there was a headlinein twenty fourteen in the La Times that
read this quote a Reagan judge,a Clinton judge, a Bush judge,
does it really matter? End quote, So kind of along the lines of
what you were alluding to earlier,it doesn't matter when we hear these Bush
appointed judge or Trump appointed judge.How much stake should we put in that?

(22:25):
And kind of what's what's your what'syour take on that? I take
it on that is, excluding what'shappened in the last nine or ten years.
Of excluding that, it never madea difference. I used to go
to judges meetings and we would talk. I mean, we would know who
the Republicans were and who the Democratswere, and we'd always tease, well,

(22:47):
you know, you're sitting over therebecause you're on the writer, you're
on the left. But it reallydidn't make any difference because we would confer
and so forth, and the endresult in those days, and I'm sure
it is today. I don't havemuch contact with the Lwer appointees, but
I have read the newspapers and Iknow what's going on, you know,
so I don't think it makes anydifferent Stall Judge. My next question to

(23:10):
you is what role, if any, has your Judayism played in your role
as a judge. I think it'splayed a large role. In fact,
Judge Cohen May Rest in Peace usedto have a speech that he gave about
a Jewish judge or am I judgethat's that's Jewish. He had a whole

(23:30):
speech that he gave about them manymany times. And I've heard many many
times my Jewish This has affected mydecisions and all kinds of because I grew
up in the Jewish neighborhood and Ibecame friends with people outside the Jewish neighborhood,
and the values that I have asa Jewish person, I think play

(23:51):
every single day. Uh. Andin terms of making decisions, you know,
there's there's the same between the Jewishattornis. They come in the court
and they'll say, this is acase that rothmanus, you know, and
and it is you know sometimes youknow, yeah that this happened and that
happened, But you have to havesome Rosmanus. And there's lots of judges

(24:11):
that are out there that don't haveRachmanis. And I think that being Jewish
has given me that light on lifeand the ability to think a little bit
different, to dig into into thatJewish and shama that you have. Exactly
do you ever look into the Jewishtext to search out an answer to something.

(24:34):
No, I really don't. However, I have an ultra orthodox law
clerk, and he does, butI doesn't. You know, He'll talk
to you for about a minute andthen you know, I'm not interested you
so but he does all the time. You know, I'll make a decision
and they'll go, you know,and talk to you. They they have
a study session, they'll talk abouta study session. Will come in and

(24:56):
start telling me, I don't understandthat. To make sure judge the dubor
rouse same sex and opt case.If you could walk us through that case,
if you could just recap it alittle bit, I think a lot
of our audience at least knew aboutit, but it would be really interesting
to hear it from your perspective,what that time was like for you and

(25:19):
knowing the gravity. You know,I know, judges don't make decisions based
off of you know, societal implicationsper se, but knowing what type of
how that decision would impact the futurefor a significant portion of the population.
Kind of walk us through what youwere thinking at that time. And may

(25:42):
I add that you ended up marryingthat couple. I'm sorry to kind of
get ahead of the story there,but if you could touch on that,
I think that's a really interesting angleon things. Okay, I think you
need should know how it started.It started because the plaintiffs, who were
partners at that time, they hadadopted individually because you couldn't do it together

(26:06):
because they didn't have a relationship.Specialties children. These people were unbelievable.
They were both nurses working different ships, so they can take care of it.
And they had four veris not justregular, especially very special and their
problem was if something happened to oneor to the other, what happened to
the child, what happens to yoursocial Security benefits? What happens to all

(26:27):
of those? So they were fightingthe adoption law. They said the adoption
law is unconstitutional because it doesn't providefor same sex partners at that time to
have the ability to adopt each other'schildren, so they could have the benefits.
That was what they were looking for. They were protecting their children.
And so they came into court andI said, you know, that's subject

(26:52):
that I can't deal with here asto state laws and lots of for lots
of reasons. And I said,why don't you just say what it is.
In order for me to deal withthat, there has to be a
mirrorage issue. And I remember watchingDane the Nessel's face fight like this and
she had a co console and itjust fell out of my mind who I
know pretty well, and I consistedher face. So I said to them,

(27:15):
I'll give you I forgot how muchsixty days to either a menager complaintant.
I have to dismiss it because Idon't interest. Sixty days comes and
they filed the same sex marriage case. And then the question became should I
decide it as a matter of lawwithout having any facts which I could have,
or should I have facts? AndI decided that we should have a

(27:37):
full blown trial so that there waswhatever decision I made, number one,
I'd have a lot more information,and number two, that there would be
some validity to it. Somebody couldread a transcript and see what happened and
all that. And then I gotinto the trial and realized, you know,
what was going on. The AttorneyGeneral of Michigan took the position that

(28:02):
the real issue is the children,and the children would be not as well
rounded and not as not taken careof, and so forth. In the
same sex marriage. That's what hewas, you know, saying. He
wasn't even talking about the legal ofit or anything else. He was pounding

(28:22):
and pounding and pounding away that thesechildren are going to sacrifice because of this.
And so we had this trial andthey, the plaintiffs, put on
the most wonderful witness. We hadone witness and I can't remember her name
of the other day we were talkingabout it, who talked about marriage from
day one, you know, andyou know what it was about. And

(28:44):
she was a lecturer at California Universityand she lectured her to us through a
whole day. I could hear apen drop. And they put some very
compelling testimony on in both marriage andalso child marriage. And they put some
some experts on, and they putsome some man experts on. But people

(29:06):
that knew the defense came up andthey had their expert was a professor from
the University of Texas who wrote apaper on the children of same sex couples
and how disadvantage there were because ofthe relationship and so forth. It turns
out that he was totally discredited.In fact, during the trial, his

(29:29):
department said and sent it out asa press release that he's not speaking for
the university. And it came outthat his study was done by a very
conservative organization and paid for it.And so it was just a very interesting,
interesting trial, and I think itaccomplished its goal, which was to
show that the raising of children,whether it was the same cycle sex couple

(29:52):
or not, was the same,it's not better sometimes, And that was
the basis of of my ruling becausethey general kind of that's what he wanted
to hear, and that's what wetalked about, and that's what we wrote
about. And can you tell usabout a couple of years later the result
of that, well, a coupleof things. Number one is when we

(30:17):
came out with their opinion. Idecided that I was going to come out
with it at five o'clock, rightafter five o'clock on a Friday, because
I knew the Court of Appeals wasclosed, and I knew that in every
other case around the country that hadsimilar issues, they immediately went to the
Court of Appeals. Court of Appealsimmediately issued to stay. So I said,
I'm going to do that, andI kind of got you know,

(30:41):
I issued it, and I sentcopies to some people that I knew that
would be very interested and expressed theinterests. And so what happened then is
they couldn't get to the Court ofAppeals to issue to stay. So people
like Julie Levy, David Grant who'sa magistrate in our court, Lisa Brown

(31:02):
in Oakland County started opening their office, you know, Washington. I kind
of opened their office open, kindof opened their office and started performing marriages.
And so they did. I forgothow many, but quite a few.
And then of course Monday morning,the Court of Appeals stated it,
and then it went through the processof appeals, the Court of Appeals Herbert,

(31:26):
and then it went along with thecompanion case. In fact, Dane
always is we should she should havebeen first, but Stay filed first or
something. Went to the United StatesSupreme Court and of course upheld them and
it was it was great. Subsequently, I performed the marriage of the plaintiffs
and it was wonderful, fair.We had, you know, just a

(31:49):
good celebration, and there were themost special people. I meant to tell
you right now, Their kids,I mean, are so special LEAs,
and they take care of them andjust unbelievably it's it was great. That's
a wonderful story, a great decisionon your part for having that happen.
Judge, could you tell us doyou have a favorite case that you've presided

(32:13):
over? Have not a favorite.I have a lot of cases that have
impacted me as a person. Andthe one that probably impacted me most was
the University of Michigan Law School affirmreaction case. An impacting me is in
June, we're talking about how doesit impact you as a Jew? So
what happened was is I'm listening tothe case the the UH plaintiffs are fighting

(32:40):
the law school, one for undergradSubert Dugging Habits I had the law school
fighting the affirmative action, and sowe're listening to testimony. I heard some
great testimony. One the first thingI heard was from a professor named Shapiro
from Emory, and he testified becausethey said that the exam was biased and

(33:04):
so forth. He testified that theexam, the entrance exams have always been
biased. He said they first startedbecause Harvard and the elite universities were getting
too many Jews. So how doyou s thought the Jews from coming?
You have a test? And hesaid they had a test, and what
was the test, it was what'sthe score on golf? You know,

(33:25):
what's the etiquette at the golf?Called things like that, and it definitely
excluded Jews. And then the nextquestion that they asked them was what happened?
He said, the Jews learned howto how to how to take that
exam, and he said, andso he think the whole history and most
of it was dealt with Jews andkeeping Jews out of the school. That

(33:46):
was one part that I thought wasjust so interesting because I never thought of
it in that sense. The otherthing that really, you know, uh,
was so noticeable. So the universitymission in law school had they believed
that they were elite last, sothey had students ranked. The highest ranking

(34:06):
students were the students that obviously wellwere Asians, Jewish people and others,
you know, I forgot not veryfew others. The next rank were a
combination of everything, and the nextrank was just slow. So many of
the African Americans were either in thesecond or third. But they wanted a

(34:27):
firm revaction and they because of diversity. And I wasn't at all a posts
versity, you know, and Iwrote an opinion in favor of diversity but
how do you accomplish oversy? Sowhen I looked at the at the at
the charts, when they took anaffirm reaction person from here and put it
here, I don't really the exactpercent, but it was way over sixty

(34:50):
percent the ones up here were Jewsmoved down here firm revaction of that,
and I couldn't believe it. AndI mean it was how do we know
that? Just because we didn't havea lot of information. But we had
names, but no first names,no social Security number or anything else.
So of course I used the normalway that people think Jewish shame should be,

(35:13):
but I couldn't believe it. Inmy law clerks couldn't believe it,
and neither one of them at thattime were Jewish. What do you think
about the decision that just came downfrom the Supreme Court. I'm the same.
I'm opposed from reaction. I meanthis because I think confirmative action is
unfair, and I wrote in myopinion, I wrote it. You know,
I believe in equal protection. Ihave no problems with affirmative assistance.

(35:37):
You know, the Detroit Police Departmentused to give people not based upon color,
but based upon lots of other things. They could say classes so they
could pass the exam, be orI haven't no problems, then stay paying
for it. But when you discriminateagainst one person in favor of another,
that's a probably shouldn't age here.But that's I'm very much supposed to it,

(35:59):
especially I know that it affected ourcommunity more than probably of this well,
judge, I know that you knowyour opinion on it, could you
know, differ from many of ourcommunity members opinions, And I think that's
that's fine, and that's good.And I think that this kind of dialogue
is necessary, especially for folks torealize that you have an opinion that is

(36:21):
obviously you have no choice but tobe thoughtful about it. And and it's
looking out for populations in the Blackcommunity and in the Jewish community. For
whatever anyone feels about it, there'smany that disagrees, and that's that's fine.
The reason that I'm so opposed toit is because of the equal protection.

(36:42):
I think, you know, diversityis very important, and I wrote
how important it is, but youknow, the constitutions is equal protection.
And that's why my grandfather came over. It works so hard. That's why
you know, lots of people cameover to work so hard so that their
kids and their grandkids and so forthcan have equal text. Sure, sure,
well, let's stick on the SupremeCourt for just for just a moment.

(37:06):
You know, we hear it almostevery day in the news that competence
levels are at in all time lowwith the Supreme Court. So how did
we get here? How why dowe have such a low confidence in the
Supreme Court? And how do wecome out of it? I know some
folks have talked about packing the court. I don't. I don't know if

(37:28):
that's the best idea. But inyour perception or in your in your estimation,
how do we get out of thisthis conundrum? Where is in term
limits? Well, term limits?You know you talk about term limits.
They're good and they're bad. Termlimits. Now that I have a lifetime
appointment, of course I'm opposed tolimits. But for the rural reason is
that I have no term limits.I can decide it based upon I think

(37:52):
the way the case should be decided, and you live with it. But
I don't think even term limits isthe answer. I think the answers politics
and how do we get out ofit? I think it's going to take
time. You know, the pendulumalways swings. It's never swamed this fire.
Mean, this is me. Youknow, I've been around a long
time. I've never succeeen it.But I've seen it swing both ways.

(38:14):
I mean, and I've seen itbe in the middle. But when we
have Supreme Court justices they don't believethat she disclosed that they had free tuition
for their children. They feel thatthey don't have to disclose that they've had
free trips, you know, Imean, it's it's unbelievable. How can
you know, how can we havesome people on the Supreme Court? Well,
the answers the politics, and nowpolitics is more important through competency in

(38:37):
terms of of nominees. And atone time the question was how competent is
the person to serve in that position? Now it's how political are of it?
And it's it's it's really in myopinion, I think we all agree
it's it's terrible and how do weget out of it? It's just going
to take time. Judge, whateffect has you being a federal judge had

(39:00):
on your life? It's being thejudge frust of all has totally made my
life. I loved being a judge. I'd loved it from the day I
got appointment. I know, ifyou know much about my history, I
didn't go to college, and Igraduated probably the last person in high school.
And I got into law school.I mean, I always thought it

(39:22):
was a great to go to lawschool, but I never thought I had
a chance. So I again,I was a very lucky person to get
into law school. And and againI never thought i'd even be a judge.
I never thought i'd be a lawyer. Anyway, It's it's affected my
life just tremendously. So I leftthe law practice where I was making fairly
good money, certainly much more thanforty two thousand dollars a year, where

(39:45):
I was used to doing you know, family trips and would fly. But
every time I got down, therebe on the phone talking to somebody or
having a conference call and doing something. I never had a real vacation because
it was always you know, butour economics was was very good, and
I took a job that paid substantiallyless, and but we went on the

(40:07):
same family occasions, but we droveand had nothing the time. I didn't
have to, you know, wedrove and we we played in the car,
and you know, it was justa totally different lifestyle. And then
when I had a point pointed tothe federal bench, it was even the
different lifestyle because I did have alifetime appointment and it became much more isolated.
When I was in the state court. You know, people would come

(40:28):
in and shows, we'd go tolaunch and maybe he went downtown, didn't
see anybody. I waited, youknow, in all our chambers are not
connected. I went for the forthe judges meetings so we can all get
together and talk in which we did, or for at least somebody from Oakland
County that stopped in and you knowand say all love. So it was
a very isolating job at the time, but it was a great job.

(40:50):
You know, I loved every minuteof it. Every day was interesting.
I was able to have law clerksthat were unbelievable, you know, that
simulated me every single day, youknow, made me think and still do.
So it just changed my life andit was a good life. It
was just unbelievable. And how it'samazing that you are where you are and

(41:13):
that you got into law school,that you were admitted to law school at
a college degree, touch on that, if you would, and then kind
of expand and what advice do yougive to young lawyers to lawyers getting into
the field, and how do youthink that advice that you give might have
differed from the advice that you receivedwhen you were a young lawyer or might

(41:35):
have evolved throughout the years, andthe type of advice that you give out.
How it happened to me is Igot on high school, as I
said, probably the last person inthe class. And I couldn't get into
college. Literally could not get intoa college. I went all again in
my car and drove, I begged, you know, and I couldn't get

(41:57):
into a college. So I wentto work. And one day I was
downtown and I was doing something rightacross the street from the Detroit College a
Law So it was pretty nice building. I said, i'll kill some time
and no hurry, and I walkedin and I kind of looked around.
I went up a couple of stepsand that was their admissions office. And
I walked in and I'm looking andthere was a thing there and it said

(42:20):
applications. It was a five byseven carrot. So I picked it up.
I said, is this the applicationand the lady said, yeah,
that's the application. This is it. She said, yeah, that's it.
I said, but I don't haveI haven't been to college. I
don't a college degree or everything.Can I get in? She said,
are you? Are you looking fora scholarship or something, or you're gonna
pay full because I'm gonna pay full. And she said, well, this

(42:43):
is we can. You can getin without an undergrad degree, but this
is the last year. I said, okay. So I took the cart
home, I filled it out,I sent it in and got accepted.
But they used to take a DetroitCollege a law They would take like hundreds
this big, big room. Itwas the only big room because that was
for the freshman class, and theywas that's how they made money. They

(43:06):
took all these people, charging thema lot of money, and most of
them, you know, flunked outor dropped out. I made it through
the first year, but I studied, you know, I went through high
school. I hadn't really read abook, to be honest, because I
was outscrewing around having a good time, you know. And so I spent
the summer before I went the lesswere reading all the books that I could

(43:29):
very frankly I was. I couldn'tread very well and never learned how to
read uh phonetically anyhow, So Ijust really studied and moved back home and
decided I was going to I wasgoing to be one of those people to
make it through the first year.And I did, and then I went
through law school, and then ofthe rest is history. I got a

(43:52):
job first at the Wayne County Prosecutor'sOffice, where I met some wonderful people,
inculding Jim Brickley, who was youknow, very instrument and helping me,
and my two partners who you know, want of them just passed away,
but we've been friends and you know, ever since then, and the
rest kind of had. My adviceto new lawyers is your reputation is the

(44:15):
most important thing. I mean,you know, don't don't do anything to
ruin your reputation when you file somethingwith the cord, make sure it's right.
If you don't have what you're supposedto have, say it, you
know, because your reputation lives withyou. Once you established a reputation,
you could change it, can doa lot of other things. You can
never get rid of that reputation.One of the first things we do with

(44:37):
judges meetings is we say, okay, you know what attorneys this week?
You know are I hate to usethe word, but you know, just
it's a horrible word, and wetalk about it. And ninety for sending
our new attorneys that think that hey, now we're an attorney, we can
do anything, they send a terrible, horrible letter to the other side.

(44:57):
There's no stability, just when yourreputation that is the most important thing.
I think that's that's the best advicein life. Not just don't leave to
lawyers, but absolutely what you haveis your name and that's it. I
was told that you have in yourcourtroom a full size stuffed American eagle.

(45:21):
Is that truth? I do,and don't feater know why, but that's
what I wanted to know. Whyit's species, isn't it. Now?
What happened was is that we usedto travel a lot and go to other
courts to help them, and soone time we heard they needed help in
the Everglades because if they found somebodypoaching and the Evergrades they have to take

(45:44):
their person to rest them and takethem all the way to Fort Myers.
So that would take the agents,I mean all they you know, to
do it, and so we volunteeredto go into the to the Everglades and
set up a court and do thearraignments and stuff, which nobody else wanted
to do. So we did itmaybe a week or two. But we
had a lot of fun because theytook us on these big vehicles and so
we do the arrangements and they wouldn'thave to swept the people all the way

(46:07):
up there. And they said,what can we do for you? I
said, I would love the eaglefor my core room. And they said,
well, we're not showing giving onebecause this is when number one they
were very much for getting. Whenone died, they gave it to the
Native Americans. So one day Iget a call, maybe a year later,
and it's it's one of the guysfrom the Park Service. He says,
we have one in Wisconsin. Somebodytried to poach before we got a

(46:30):
chance to take him to their wherever. And the Native Americans are willing to
give it up because they used theceremonial and all that. And I said,
I got it. They said,but you have to pay to have
it fast. I just said Idon't care. I'll pay to have it
stuff, and so they sent itto They told me a couple of taxes

(46:51):
arms. They really would like todo it. And the taxes unders gave
me a great rape because they've neverdone an eagle. They never do an
eagle in their life. So Igot a great rape. And that's how
I And she's been there. Hername is aDNA, and she's been there
ever since. That's a great story. Yes, we've had some good times.
I mean we've we've traveled and youknow, her cases own probably in

(47:13):
forty other courts, and we usedto go to New York for the first
two weeks. And uh, it'sbeen great. And I'm trying to get
my law clerks very interested in usas Jews and what we're about when they
go out into the world. Iknow I have taken all but I think
six of my law clerks to Israel. I put together trips and taken to

(47:37):
Israel. Most of them are notJewish. They've taken a couple of Jewish
well, of course, I don'tknow how many it took, but I
made the least seven trips with lawclerks and taken them to the the Christian
part of the Jewish. I thinkit's again part of my Jewishes. They
know I love Israel, and somy goal is to take them all.

(47:57):
I think I've seen there. Ithink I've seen natural a few times.
You might have he had, Idon't want. My other favorite thing is
sarrel working on an army dase.That is the most fulfilling thing. I
love it. Israeli army days.It's a hip hope. It's called Sarel
and you volunteer, put the uniformon. You get to eat with the

(48:19):
soldiers and talk to them, andyou're doing something that's productive. You're not
shooting guns or anything. You're cleaningwarehouses. And again, I've taken a
lot of people to that I took. I took a couple of US marshals,
one of the chief of the USMarshal, and he came back and
he went again. I mean,he's you know, he thinks he's Jewish
now and a couple of the others. In fact, I have one that

(48:42):
I took and he's going back.He wanted to take his mother and he
was the chief of police in himTramvic. Now he works for the court
and now he's going to take hismother to Israel because it was so important
to him though he's a Christians tosee it and every day comes in forty
days, thirty whatever it is thathe's going with the vound. Well,

(49:02):
judge, it's it's been such apleasure having you on and you have such
a vast amount of knowledge that youknow. There's some episodes, there's some
interviews that we do that I thinkwe could extend a couple hours into the
evening and this is this is definitelyone of those those interviews, but we
have to end it at some point. And the last question that that I

(49:23):
want to ask you, moving forwardand looking looking to the future, is
what has you optimistic? An optimisticperson, I think that that there's always
a good side to everything, anduh, if you think I think if
you think positive, that that makesyou know so many people you know that

(49:44):
tink negative and they're you know,they're not happy. I think that we
have to think positive and uh,if you think positive, then hopefully things
will will be positive. And maybeI'm too optimistic, but that's how it's
my look on life. And theone advice to see him, you've already
accomplished one thing you tried moving yourselffrom now on you're gonna say, I

(50:07):
don't care how much it costs toaccompany to do it. Learned. It
took me the same thing. Imean, I tried doing myself when I
first got married, and I saidnever again. And so you've experienced that
you've experienced, so live and learn. I'm a better man for it.
That's it. Of course, thankyou very much for doing our podcasts.

(50:28):
I think this is going to bea very popular one, one that will
attract so many people in our communityand people that are interested in you as
a person. And thank you forsharing your life with us and your wisdom.
Thank you for allowing me to behere. I really enjoyed. Sam
and I go back a long way, and of course along with your family

(50:50):
too, so we're all on thesame page. Thank you. It's a
pleasure to know you for as manyyears as as we've known each other,
and I value our relationship. Sothank you for this both I appreciate.
And now, in collaboration with theDetroit Jewish News, it's how we met,
introducing community members with a love storyto share. This month, I'm

(51:10):
in conversation with Aaron and Winnie Creeker. Aaron and Winnie met while attending Central
High School, and eighteen months later, when they were nineteen years old,
they married. They've been married forseventy years and again Aaron and Winnie Creeker,
Welcome to Federate Dout Detroit. Thanksfor having us. So I gotta

(51:30):
ask, you know, we hearabout the key to marriage, and everyone
has their own take on what thekey to marriage is. What are your
keys to a successful marriage? Well, to love each other, to enjoy
each other when there's stressful times,to try to get out of those stressful
times and do a lot of huggingis what we do. Well. I

(51:52):
would say that people always wonder whatthe secret is, and the truth is
their camp to be one secret becausepeople are so different. But I think
love, respect, affection, anda sense of humor, which we have
an abundant is also very important.And you also have to say, yes,

(52:15):
dear all great. Well, I'mtaking notes. I'm taking notes for
myself too, so this is abit selfish on my You know, we
got married at nineteen. There werewe didn't have any experience about any of
this. We were just going alongas as things happened, and we had

(52:36):
to solve different things on our own, and it was a experience for us.
I usually jokingly said, we grewup with our children, and it's
kind of true. But the basicthings that we lived by and shared with
our children seemed to have worked.And it often see either you know.

(53:00):
I asked folks just in personal conversation, if they knew it in the moment,
if they knew that their partner wasthe one? Did the two of
you feel that way? Did youknow in the moment that you were meant
to be together for the rest ofyour lives? I don't think it was
instantaneous. We were attracted to eachother. We spent so much time together.

(53:23):
I think the affection and low grewand times were different then, so
I think we were more mature thanthe nineteen year old of today. I
think I knew immediately, so wehad quite a difference there, But on

(53:44):
the dates that came afterwards, wegrew closer together and my choice was wonderful
and I'm very delighted that we did. And lastly, and you kind of
touched on it, but a littlebit more in depth that you could,
what advice would you give to twopeople who are now just entering a lifetime

(54:06):
of God willing a loving marriage.Well, you know, I think there
has to be strong feelings of love, but you must respect each other,
trust each other, and be theother's best friends, so to speak,
because you are working together and perhapsraising a family, and it has to

(54:30):
be a joint endeavor. I won'tleave out sense of humor. I think
it's important we have an abundance ofthat. But also to be kind.
I think that's very important and thatsolves a lot of difficulties that occurred marriages,
and we work at it, butit seems to be very successful.

(54:52):
Well, Aaron and Winnie Krieger's it'sbeen a pleasure getting to know you in
these past few minutes, and again, mazeltough on seven in the years of
not only friendship, but love andfriendship and marriage. Thank you, thank
you so much, and thank youfor joining us. Our audio engineer and
editor is Tim Seagrist. You canfind Federatedio Detroit at Jewish Detroit dot org,

(55:15):
forward Slash Podcast, or wherever youfind your podcasts. Federated Deo Detroit
is produced by the Jewish Federation ofMetropolitan Detroit in collaboration with the Detroit Jewish
News. FEDERATEDO Detroit. We're herefor good.