Episode Highlights:
- Heather describes experiencing ambivalence in two ways: as part of depression where she simply doesn't care about outcomes, and more commonly through decision fatigue when overwhelmed by daily responsibilities and unable to make even simple choices like where to eat dinner
- Michelle connects ambivalence to the "mental load of caregiving" that drives people to a point where they refuse to make any more decisions, noting there's a difference between "can't" and "won't" make decisions, with the latter tinged with irritation
- Tina admits she struggles with holding space for people experiencing ambivalence because indecision is a pet peeve for her, honestly sharing that she might not be the right person to bring ambivalence to
- The hosts discuss hope as the recommended mindset for ambivalence, with Tina suggesting that sometimes you can "trick your way out" of the emotional space by envisioning a positive future rather than trying to think your way out
- Michelle shares the personal significance of her Phoenix tattoo as a symbol of hope and resilience, explaining how it reminds her that she has consistently risen from challenging situations and can do so again, providing evidence that "you can" rather than "you can't" get through difficult times
Podcast theme music by Dubush Miaw from Pixabay
This episode of the #FeelingsMatter Podcast was recorded and produced at MSR Studios in Saint Paul, MN.Copyright 2025, all rights reserved. No reproduction, excerpting, or other use without written permission.
This episode is sponsored by
FeelWise - bridging the gap between reflection and resilience, offering practical tools to help people overcome obstacles, embrace change, and grow stronger emotionally. https://www.feel-wise.com/
Don’t miss a moment of the conversation, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting platform
Podcast theme music by Dubush Miaw from Pixabay
This episode of the #FeelingsMatter Podcast was recorded and produced at MSR Studios in Saint Paul, MN. No reproduction, excerpting, or other use without written permission.
This episode is sponsored by
FeelWise - bridging the gap between reflection and resilience, offering practical tools to help people overcome obstacles, embrace change, and grow stronger emotionally. https://www.feel-wise.com/
Don’t miss a moment of the conversation, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting platform
Episode Transcript
Do you have trouble talking about your feelings. You're not alone.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's a topic that can make even the most powerful
people somewhat squeamish. You're listening to Feelings Matter, where our
mission is to demystify everything about emotions so that we
can all get more comfortable in talking about them. Joining Heather,
(00:28):
Tina and Michelle as we unpack a new angle on
emotions and the psychology of human nature. Feelings Matter. Hello everyone,
and welcome back to Feelings Matter.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I'm Michelle Steinhon Morales, and.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I'm teenage Wiger.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
I've been feather Rton.
Speaker 5 (00:54):
The card that I picked this week is in the
apathy category, and it's ambivalence, with we need to say,
is very different from indifference but similar. But ambivalence is
when you feel too opposite feelings or attitudes at the
same time, or you're just feeling indecisive. Are you feeling
(01:17):
torn between two different choices? Are you not sure how
you want to feel about a situation or about an individual.
Are you just generally experiencing conflicting emotions. I would have
to say for myself that I think that I experience
ambivalence in.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Two different ways.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
The first is more related to my depression in which
I really just don't care in general, and it's the
leans a little bit more towards the indifferent sort of sensation.
But I don't really feel like whatever is happening is
going to make much of a change. So yeah, fine,
(01:58):
I could do that. I could do that.
Speaker 6 (01:59):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (02:00):
I'm not really have a stake in the game here,
but I feel like in the more where I more frequently.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Experienced this is in moments of decision fatigue.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
So when I have been overwhelmed with whatever it is
just running my life, and someone's.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Like, where do you want to go to dinner?
Speaker 5 (02:21):
Do you want to go to Mexican or Italian?
Speaker 7 (02:24):
And I'm just like, I want food and I cannot
make another single decision right now, so please just pick
so that we think, oh, I'm thinking from food into
my byhole. That's generally how I experience ambivalence. Michelle looked
like you had an AHA, my life so much.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Thank you for bringing up decision fatigue for those of
us that run households and.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Do everything, and this includes Heather.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Heather may not be a parent, but she is definitely
a caregiver that men to load of caregiving, Yes, drives
us to the point of ambivalence. If I could put
it that way, It's like, after a while, I'm like
I have been sorting out everything for everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I'm not anymore. Somebody else needs to sort and not
make me do it.
Speaker 8 (03:21):
I had not thought about ambivalence in that context. It's
that one is tinged with a little bit of on
the anger scale, maybe some irritation because I just don't
want to have to feel anything about this, not like
there's even there's a cant and then there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Right, Yeah, I'm with you, And I think that's probably
why ambivalence is part of the wider apathy, is that
it requires energy to exit from ambivalence, and it's usually
a lack of energy that gets us there.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yes, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
There's something about me that I have a hard time
dealing with people who can't.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Make up their mind that peep of mine.
Speaker 9 (04:07):
Sorry, Yes, I'm a real human as I can be
very nice about a lot of things, but oh my God,
please make a decision. God, hel let's all make a decision.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So I personally struggle with remembering that I need to
slow down a little bit and hold some space, hold
some kindness for somebody that's experiencing some ambivalence, because.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I'm like, we just need to get this done. I'm
a terrible person when it comes to ambivalence.
Speaker 9 (04:40):
I may not be the person to bring your ambivalence
to sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
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Speaker 2 (04:55):
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Speaker 1 (05:08):
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Speaker 2 (05:12):
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Speaker 3 (05:43):
How do you experience that, Tina, I think I have
an ambivalent answer of I'm not really sure. I think
I feel confused. Just thinking about the Sun station, like
it literally puts me into a state of wait, I
(06:04):
don't even know, I don't even know, And I think
that's how I experience it is I feel almost confused
about how I feel, and I'm reaching for something and
I can't find it. Our mindset surrounding that is hope,
which hope can be actionable. It's not necessarily just wishful.
(06:26):
So in that case, like if I skipped all the one, two,
three and just jumped right into actionable hope, I would
stop worrying about the confusion and envision a positive, a
bright future. If you will something I could remember something
that made me feel hopeful in the past, I could
(06:47):
think about come up with something in my head that's
that I would hope for. And sometimes I think you
can't think your way out of that emotional space, but
you can maybe put yourself a different mindset and trick
your way out of it.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Interesting great thinking.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
I think, and Bildin's it's tricky because it puts you
on the precipice to go down a negative rabbit hole.
Speaker 8 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
It's right on the edge of being numb and really
starting to isolate yourself. If you don't have the energy
to decide between something, you're going to shut down and
so being able to just in that moment, not trying
to have a solution come to you, but just say,
(07:35):
let's just step out of this mindset, even just for
a second, and then maybe I can start to reframe.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Once I'm in a different place.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Tina.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
What you were describing really aligns with the question about
do you feel like you're stuck in a state of indecision,
but that sense of I'm stuck between to a.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Pose experiences in that moment, and just being able to.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Maybe temporarily accept that, oh, I'm just sitting in this
liminal space that I'm in between and be okay within between.
If you can just accept it a little bit, you
can find your way to.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Move through it.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Also, for anybody that's maybe ever met me, saw me
on a video or at a conference or whatever. I
have a phoenix tattoo on.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
My right arm.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And because Tina brought up the mindful mindset of hope
and hopefulness, there's a reason why I have my phoenix tattoo,
and it is that ability to remember that there is
always hope. That I have come through a lot of
things in my life that would have threatened to burn
(08:59):
me up to ash, and yet somehow I've managed to
come through those things. I've risen back out of the
ash of that situation, And a big reason of why
I wanted this particular tattoo was to continually remind myself
not of the blaming situations that I have experienced in
(09:21):
my life, but rather that I have developed an ability,
a toolkit, whatever the case may be, to come through it,
that there is always something beyond it, and that I
have consistently been able to do it in the past,
and if I've been able to do it before, I
(09:42):
should be.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Able to do it again.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So for me, the phoenix in and of itself is
a very hopeful symbol that I can continue to rise above,
I can continue to work my way through, and it
is the reason why I had to just do something
that meaningful and that permanent to.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
My skin, the super inspiring Michelle, thank.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
You, because I need to hang onto that hope.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I would not have gotten through some of the things
I've gotten through in my life without hanging onto that hope.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, the phoenix is beautiful, and Michelle, that imagery resonates
with me a lot, because I've had so many days
in my life where I've just had that thought I
don't know if I can get through, I don't know
if I can do it today, And then.
Speaker 6 (10:33):
Just say, look at all the other days that you
felt that way and you still did it. So the
evidence is more towards that you can, then that you can't.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yes, so we actually will as much as I was
joking about the indecision, we absolutely will hold space for
you to deal with ambivalence and find your way through it.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
We do love and care for
Speaker 3 (11:36):
H
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