Help Find Kerry: Seeking Justice & Closure for the Death of Kerry Winter | Kurt Winter - Forbidden Knowledge News

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
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get weirder and weirder and weirder, and finally it's going
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Speaker 2 (01:37):
Eventually people are going to say, what the hell is
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The systems which are in place us to keep the

(02:01):
world same are in utterly inadequate to the forces that
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Speaker 1 (02:11):
Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm your host Chris Matthew.
Today my guest is Kurt Winter. Be sure to check
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(02:34):
visit our website Forbidden Knowledge dot News. It's the home
of the Forbidden Knowledge Network, where we feature some of
your favorite podcasts and content creators. Today, I want to
welcome Kurt Winter. He is a South African entrepreneur, motivational speaker,
and now author based in Johannesburg. With over thirty five
years of entrepreneurial experience, he has built a reputation for resilience,

(02:58):
innovation and inspiring others through his journey. Kurt, Welcome, How
you doing well?

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Good? Thanks, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thank you so much for coming on. Today's show is
going to be a little different than most, but I
believe it's so important to share with the audience. You're
gonna be sharing the story of Carrie Winter. Your book
Help Us Find Carrie tells the true story of your
sister Carrie, a South African who lived and worked in
Dubai until she went missing there in two thousand and eight.

(03:31):
Her ex partner is currently serving a twenty five year
sentence in a Dubai prison for her murder. But Carrie's
body has never been found and your family has never
really received the closure deserved. So today we're gonna tell
her story. And hopefully bring awareness to the audience. Maybe

(03:54):
something will come out of it and you could get
more information. I believe the more we get your story
out there, the better that it would be for finding
future information about it. But before we get into this,
tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Well, I'm a fifty eight year old. I live in Joannesburg,
formerly from Durban, South Africa. I've been up in Janiceburg
for thirty five years. I started at business which we
manufacture dye sublimated clothing so it sports your sports line,

(04:33):
that type of thing. And yeah, being in joe Burgh,
this is what I do and getting to that age
where I want to just chill and joy life.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Excellent, excellent. Tell us first a little bit about Carrie
before we get into her story.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, Katie was a baby sister. They always have their
own ideas of what they want to do. There was
a six year difference with us. Now, no matter what
you tell her. The youngsters they always know what they
want in life and how they want to do it.
But as an older brother, you try and coax them

(05:14):
on and get them to, you know, follow the path.
But I always learned. What I've learned is that you
always learn by your hard knocks, and yeah, she did
pretty much. She wasn't sure what she wanted to do,
was very creative. We both were in the same type

(05:35):
of feel and yeah, she ended up in Dubai and
she was an events coordinator and I think she did
pretty well until the time that she disappeared.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
So walk us through how everything started.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Well, it's kind of started. It was my grand's eight
yeth birthday and you know, we tried to rally and
get all the family across the country to one venue.
And the strange thing about Kerry, she we got a
WhatsApp stating that she's unable to make it and she

(06:17):
met a hot guy and that was really out of character.
She was never that type of person. But as we
be that as it may. She she didn't come to
the function, and it was like, you know, somebody that
we missed because she was very she enjoyed a good party,

(06:41):
so we missed her. And while we were down in
Durban at my grand's eightieth no No, just before we
were heading back the following day, you know, we were
driving back to Joburg and we got a call from

(07:02):
one of her colleagues and I was like, but strange.
Why would a colleague like call And she said that
she's a bit concerned because Kerry didn't pitch for work
and she's not that type of person. She's like, you
go to work no matter what. And you know, now
you you kind of halfway between Durban and Johannesburg, so

(07:28):
it's kind of there's nothing we can actually do. So,
you know, we tried to send text messages WhatsApp just
to get some feedback to find out, you know, there's anything,
Is everything okay, that type of thing, and then totally,

(07:49):
like half an hour later, out of the blue, we've
got a text message, yes I'm fine, I'm out of
town with a hot guy or again. And it was
a bit you know, I was driving, so I couldn't
actually you know, read these messages, and my ex wife
was reading them to me, and I was like, it's

(08:10):
a bit strange. But all the questions that we asked
we got very like abrupt direct messages back, which is
a bit weird because she is not that type of person.
And we pretty much the same as in, if I

(08:31):
send you a text message, I'm going to put punctuation,
put a comma, I'll put that type of vibe, and
when I looked over at the messages that were coming through,
was like, everything is lower everything is lowercase. There's no punctuation,
there's no full stops. I said, something isn't right. So

(08:54):
my suggestion was being South African, we are able to
speak Afrikaans, I said, send a message in Afrikaans. And
we sent the message and no further communication. So I said,
guaranteed that wasn't her.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
So somebody had a phone that was communicating with us
and they didn't understand what we were asking. So we
had this I think it was a six hour drive
to Johannesburg where we couldn't actually do anything. Wow. So

(09:35):
we were we had this kind of dilemma. And then
my mom suggested my mom was with us, and because
she lived with me, and my mom said, why don't
you just speak to Mark. Maybe he's the guy he
would know. So we messaged him.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
And who was Mark?

Speaker 3 (09:54):
Funny enough, so Mark was the perpetrator, the guy ex boyfriend,
and he replied and we were shocked and spoke about
He said like he didn't know where she was, he
hadn't seen her in a while, and he was actually
in the UK. So we were like strange, and he

(10:16):
spoke like sensible, and before he put the phone down
he said, Mom, I'm sorry, and there was the end
of it. So we were like, why would you say
sorry if everything was fine?

Speaker 1 (10:32):
How was her large relationship when they were together? Was
there any red flags that may indicate his behavior?

Speaker 3 (10:42):
So basically those red flags started to emerge when I
went to Dubai. Now one of the reasons for me
going to Dubai was her, and I was going to
start up a company, so I'm into design and that
type of thing, and she was event many so I
could create all the backdrops that type of paraphernalia. And

(11:08):
so I went out there, saw what she did, chatted
to her. It was something that you know, was I
could handle. But one of the the catches were that
Mark's son lived in Dubai and he wanted the son

(11:28):
to be involved in order to get his papers type
of thing so he could remain there. And so I mean,
I was, you know, open to anything. And the longer
I stayed, the more I was pulled into this. It
wasn't a good vine.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
And this was before she went missing.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yes, this was before she was missing. And the thing
is I mean you haven't seen your sister in a while.
And we actually got time. We spent like three days
together and the rest of the time he was around.
And the first night when he arrived, we were sitting
on the couch next to each other and he literally

(12:13):
wiggled his way in between us, and I was like, hold,
i'd understand if I was a total stranger, but that's
my younger sister. There's no need to to wanna squeeze
into us. And I was like, okay, that's what he wants.
I moved aside, and and he was like always touchy,

(12:33):
and it was just possessive. It was something that I
wasn't used to. I mean, if you needed to sit
next to your sister, I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong
with it. He was just I probably strange that way.
So so now that was prior to me goinding then

(12:56):
when I was in Dubai, before I left the first time.
So this was to suss out the business adventures. The
last day, she drove me to the airport and she
wasn't a selmon and I was like, what's up. No, No,

(13:17):
something you know is getting to her. She's not sure
what's transpired, but she got to get me to the airport,
and she's got to get back to a function. It
was actually Mark's birthday, and we chatted and I said
to her, you know, I'd love to do a joint
venture with you, but you have the youngster and Mark.

(13:42):
It's going to be like an intrusion into our venture
and I'm not comfortable with having that. So he was
so she said, no, no, no, she understands fully wished
me well if I went. She went back, and then
she messaged my wife in essay or my ex wife
in essay, and said that she felt there was somebody

(14:06):
at the function of at the party that they acted
weird and it was a fellow South African that was
there and he was making moves on her. And then
we subsequently found out that they had something something on

(14:29):
that started pretty much the whole dispute and where she
chose to leave rather than to stay. But that's when
her problems all started, see, because he was this possessive character,
and it was like, if I don't have you, nobody

(14:52):
else will, right, So she would, you know, go in
and say that we ever went, she felt that she'd
been followed, and then she moved out and she lived
with a friend, and I think the friend was on
her first floor. Doesn't your rock up there with a

(15:14):
step ladder, climbs up to the first floor, gets into
her place, grabs all her designer outfit, chest, chair, and
a jewelry and said that you don't have to look
nice for anyone else. Wow. I mean we later found

(15:36):
out that he had actually he put a tracking device
on a vehicle, so no matter where she went, he
always had tabs on her of where she'd be mm hm.
So I mean she wherever she wherever she went, he
was there, and there was a bit frustrating.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
How long did it take for you to actually get
out to Dubai after you realize she was missing? What
was the series of events after that car ride when
you realize something was wrong.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
So so basically after her friend called and said that
she she didn't pitch for work, So it was pretty
much us getting to Johannesburg and in the next morning
going straight to the Dubai authorities getting a visa and
we managed to get a flight. So I think it

(16:35):
was about i'd say about two to three days. Then
once you're on the flight, you kind of like you're
Midia and you have all these things going, you know,
going through your mind, like will I find that, will
she be okay? You don't know what to expect, and

(16:57):
you know, I try to be positive throughout the whole
thing and saying that I'll get there and she'll just
be some way with a friend, then we'll hook up
again and everything will be fine. But the longer the
flight took, you start getting other scenarios coming up with
maybe she's not okay, but there's there's you know, at

(17:19):
a time, I get you've got to think of all
types of scenarios and hope for the best. And I
think like on landing, we were met by a friend
and she said she's going to pick us up, take
us now, and I say us. It was Dave and
I my son in law ex suning law. They arranged

(17:42):
a place first to stay for the night and took
us to the hotel and said just rest tomorrow we'll
start the search. And I didn't have the faintest idea
clue that it would take so long. So we we

(18:03):
pretty much. I mean I couldn't really I couldn't really sleep.
I mean, my mind was racing trying to figure out
what transpired. What actually happened. So eventually I fell asleep
and just as my head went down, I felt like
to get up, and Joe was there. She said, come me.

(18:24):
First thing you need to do is have something to eat,
and then we're going to start. We'll go to the
police firstly and speak to them and see if they
have any news and that type of thing. And then
we met Carrie's boss. He was very instrumental in assisting
us with accommodation and you know, being that person that

(18:48):
just put you in the right direction, always positive, and
that was nice, nice to have. I mean, I didn't
have family there. They were in the other end of
the world. And yeah, So the first of many days
at the police station, and no matter what your case is,

(19:09):
you don't get no priority. You sit and wait. And
I think the more they got to know who I
was and what it was about, the longer you'd wait.
And that's just how it was. But unbeknown to me,
I didn't know the extent of this whole case and

(19:30):
whould involved. So the longer it took, the more I
started realizing that it's not just a man on the street.
It involved a hell of a lot of things that
I was unaware of and as I went along, I
would actually pick up and then realize and look at

(19:52):
if you look at mails that were were sent to
me and WhatsApp, only once you look back does it
make sense. And also the other thing is that you know,
as a sister, she doesn't want to to tell her
older brother this is wrong, that's wrong. She opted to

(20:15):
now have this conversation with my ex and would tell
her everything that was happening, but me, because I mean,
I would rather act on it and get it sorted
out rather than have it linger.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
What were your first signs that there may have been
higher levels of involvement in this?

Speaker 3 (20:44):
The first science is firstly the way one was treated,
you know, as far as the police went. But you know,
when you're when you're in a foreign country, you don't
know how things would it actually happened. You would just
take it for face value. That's how a cop would

(21:08):
act or investigating officer, that type of thing. The one
thing that was very weird I found it They kept
saying to me, just be quiet, don't say a thing,
We'll let you know what's going on. So I kind
of was like, why am I there? If you're telling
me all this. I'm not just going to sit and

(21:32):
wait for you to come or call me and say, oh,
we found this, and this is what transpired. I was patient.
I was in a country that you don't know the
laws all that well, and it favored the males not
so much, but not so much the woman. But you

(21:53):
kind of get to the point where it's like, come on,
enough's enough. I cannot be told to sit in the
corner and you know, behave yourself. The longer it took,
the more I got frustrated. And you tend to do
I think what any brother would do. And my thing

(22:17):
was I started getting I won't say strophy, but I
started asking questions and they didn't like it, even to
the point where now once Mark arrived back in Dubai
because he was actually in the UK and you went
to watch Stoke, one of the football clubs that he supported,

(22:40):
and when he came back, he was arrested. But unbeknown
to me, because that's how they work, they don't tell
you anything. So I go to the police station and
they said, hold on, we want you to speak to
this gentleman. And they more walks into a white bag

(23:04):
pretty much dressed up like you just got off a flight.
But you know, when you told to sleep in a
corner type of thing, and when I saw him come
into this like a little office, you kind of get
that worst case scenario where you think of what did

(23:25):
you do with my sister? And you want to react,
and things were got into my mind. I just wanted
to and I'm not the violent type, but that brings
out the spirits you that you can't even.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
They wanted you to speak directly with him, is okay?
So how did that unfold?

Speaker 3 (23:46):
And so you know, when initially he sat down, my
mind was just racing. I wasn't actually listening to what
they were saying. All I was thinking is do I tech?
Do I do what I need to do? And also,
I mean the neighborhood we grew up in, it was
a bit of a rough neighborhood, but we were like

(24:09):
we were told we are the what do they call us? Well, anyway,
the nice guys. But you'll learn a lot of things.
And I saw this guy and all I wanted to
do was take him out, but something said, don't be violent,
just sit there and ask relevant questions. And I started

(24:31):
asking him stuff and everything I asked he kind of
answered in a nice and I thought, okay, But the
more I asked, he kind of was like, how do
I answer? And when it got a bit I was

(24:51):
asking too much and was too sensitive. That's when the
doority stepped in and just grabbed him and pulled him out.
And I'm like, well, old, I'm done. I need to
speak to him and find out what runs by it.
And I said, no, no, that's it for today.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
And they did it for a couple of days. I
think it was three days they did that where it
bring him in, you'd ask him questions in the minute
you wanted. I found out I was getting some sort
of feedback that was it.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
They wouldn't tell you anything.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
It's so different than anything that would transpire here in
the United States. You would have never been able to
interview that person that's being detained or arrested at the time.
So that is so interesting.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Everything was so different to what we used to Everything
not nothing followed the legal system that we have here.
It's the greatest at the moment, but it was like
you don't like, you didn't know where you right. They
would do certain things that I question, why or how

(26:05):
do you do it? But like I said, I was
in a foreign country and had to behave myself and
just follow suits. And you found the other thing we
had was South African politics, not politicians, people that were
that worked at the embassy and they were there to

(26:28):
ask questions and to kind of guide you. But one
of my frustrations was that, yeah, you have somebody there
to speak on your behalf, but they can barely speak English. Yeah,
and it's it's a an Arabic country, and I would

(26:51):
I would assume that you'd rather have somebody that can
speak the language that if they didn't understand and they
beared off, they could translate and tell you. So yeah,
somebody tried to tell me what they say and when
they speaking to themselves, I mean, it was frustrating. The

(27:14):
more you speak, the more they speak in Arabic. And yes,
this so called acting ambassador telling me and talking down
on me like I'm a naughty school kid and I
need to behave Wow, you know, respect is earned, as
I see it. And I asked a simple question, give

(27:37):
me a simple answer, not tell you to go sit
in the corner and be quiet. So you know, what
actually started developing was that I became this I won't
say a loose cannon, but I was very much well,

(27:58):
to put it frankly, I developed a name that the
people in Dubai called me. They called me the press brother.
So my only way was to use the press to
my advantage in order to get the word out there,
because in Dubai they kind of controlled everything you've done

(28:20):
or do if there's a crime, Like when I was there,
there was six Chinese nationals found in these blackburns and
they were beheaded. Nobody knew about it, but if you
were at the police station, you had that privy that

(28:40):
you would hear them speak and talk about it, but
absolutely nothing in the news.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
So you went to the press and it kind of happened.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah. So that was at the police station. But the
press was I mean, I had Americans, I had.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
That that wow, people in the UK.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
We had the South African guys calling us, We had
people from India calling us. So it was the press
from all over and that made it a lot easier
and a bit more difficult for them to control what
was actually happening right right, because they were masters at
controlling anything that you would say, how you would say it,

(29:28):
that type of thing. I mean, I had loads of
people that I could sit down like they were made
of mine and just tell him how I felt. I
wouldn't tell him what they needed to write. I would
tell them. And nine out of ten times when I
read the newspaper it was it was relevant to what
I was doing.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
You're going to the press. They're putting more pressure on
the situation. How does everything then unfold? Did the police
start to make any leeway in their investigation? Did they
start to tell you about things?

Speaker 3 (30:09):
No? No, no, no, the police were I think they
pretty much taught that way. That's how they need to
deal with people. They don't tell you anything. There was
one part I think I put it in the book
where they found a vehicle but not telling me, or

(30:34):
they should have said the vehicle was found at this spot,
this is how we found it. They told me a
spot that the vehicle was not even the So what
do I do? I go now and start investigating, and

(30:54):
they're saying that was the I think that. Two days
later I went to the police station and I was
walking in the police station and this total stranger and
his white gear comes up to me and he says,
come with me quickly. I want to tell you something,
and I was like, oh, hold on, this seems a
bit dodgy. So I take a walk with him, and

(31:18):
then he sneaks off. There's this long passage and there's
a little indent with there's a door and it's closed,
so he's ducks in there and he says to me,
they are lying to you. Whatever they're telling you, there's
a lie. The vehicle was found in this at this place,

(31:38):
and just be careful, and you kind of react to
what you've been told, and you just do what.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
You It seemed like they were trying to protect mark innocence.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Uh, you'll later find out, yes, they were trying to
protect him, but I think they were trying to protect
their own brandy. And then that was the main thing. Yeah,
they didn't want me to tarnish the image of what
was out there.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
That makes sense.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, And I mean if I look now, and I
I mean it's seventeen years later, and I've still find
people from all over the world, Americans, South Africans, English,
they just disappeared. And the minute they get involved with
the local and you find the locals are wealthy and

(32:39):
their dads were like, now you're not marrying it. We
need to find you a local that's going to help
our families business type of thing, and these females it disappeared.
It sounds very nice and it's straightforward. It's not that
it's a tough place to swallow, but it's something you

(32:59):
have to do. And mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
So the stranger pulls you into this alley and tells
you that they're lying to you. What do you do
with that?

Speaker 3 (33:10):
What happens next? So basically you kind of you tried,
you know, I tried to act like I knew what
I was doing. I mean, you don't have a clue.
So I just started chasing whatever was there, whatever picked up.

(33:35):
It became a wild goose chase, I think, you know,
one of the things that kind of also kind of
calm me down a bit. Eventually had the same colleague
of her of us said let's go to Killy's place.

(34:00):
So we go to a place where she lived and
it was like a double story and it was divided
into I think there was three rooms downstairs, three four
rooms and four rooms upstairs. And when we walked in
quite a big yard. It was paving. And when I

(34:25):
on the walkway that goes into the actual place. The
minutes I got in there, I just saw this dark
patch and straight away I went over to it and
it was blood. And that's when my mind started thinking,
oh shucks, what the hell has happened. And while we
were looking at that, there was an Egyptian guy that

(34:46):
came out, and he was very tearful and kept apologizing,
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I didn't know much for her,
so at first I was kind of like, why not,
And then he said to me, my baby's only three
weeks old. And I went out to assist, and this

(35:10):
guy picked up a baton or baseball bat and came
at me, and he says. My first reaction was I
needed to get back inside because I had a three
weeks old baby. And then I mean, I couldn't hold
that against him. And apparently there was a second guy
that came out, and also when he got out, he

(35:34):
was standing over Kerry and he had this baseball bat
and she was leaning this pool of blood.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
So there was more than one perpetrator.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
No, no, this was the person that lived in the
complex or the house. So the second guy that came
out and he looked and he said as he opened
the door, Mark just picked up the baseball batter and
went off to him, and he also got the hell
out of there because he feared for his laugh. But

(36:05):
the I don't know if the interesting thing, one of
the weirdest things was, and it was a bit disturbing,
was that the Egyptian guy. He said while he sat
before he came out, while he sat indoors with his
wife and his newborn, he said, it sounded like somebody
was chasing you know, you get a rat in your

(36:27):
house and the bets is running and you could just
hear the stump of the baseball bat. He said, that's
what he heard, and he heard screams, and only once
he came out did he see what really was going on.
And to hear me was like he got back in
there and he was like, whoa, I'm not playing out there.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
What exactly did he see?

Speaker 3 (36:51):
And so he actually saw that Mark had this baseball
bat and was lashing her over the head and there
was blood all over the place. And then I can
only assume, because there was nobody there to see, was

(37:11):
that we found a pool of blood where the car
was popped and apparently he loaded it into the back
and he drove over them, and I mean then it
was when the Ethiopian guy said to me, be careful
what they tell you. This is where the care is.

(37:33):
That's when I started inquiring about the car. And then
they came out and they said, yes, they found the
vehicle and because of the amount of blood that was
found in the back, he said, the chances that your
sister survived were very minimum. So I was like, why
is that? He says, the amount of blood that was found,

(37:55):
and you take into account a build and her height, Kah,
the only way to survive would be that she would
she would need to go directly to hospital M And
I mean that was up in the air. We still
don't know where she is. There's been lots of I

(38:18):
don't know what you call her lies or statements made.
She was taken out to see she was dumped in
the desert.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
So hard it was giving different locations where she could
possibly be.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Did we learn anything else about Mark after his arrest?
Did he have a history? Is there anything that would
have been important to know?

Speaker 3 (38:47):
So apparently so Kitty would would call my ex wife
and tell her that they had been instances where we
were for Maria and Roberts and he was the type
of character that would I don't want to say Steele,

(39:08):
I'm not one hundred percent sure, but he would take
certain things and it would be his own. And apparently
they found out about what he had been doing and decided,
you know, they want to come and check. So he
actually got rid of the rid of this stuff in

(39:29):
order to keep his his hands clean type of thing.
And it's not the first. I mean, he's done it
numerous times. I mean we did have a discussion way
back where I actually confronted him. Okay, it was on
it was on a mile, and I said, did you

(39:51):
do these things? Are the companies you work for? And
he denied it. My sister she admitted he had been
involved in some dodgy deals.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Wow, you said he was only sentenced to twenty five years.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
So initially he was after four years, he was sentenced
to seven years.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
M wow.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
And then he got then he got very brazen and
said he wanted to go back to court and he
wanted to fight because he felt that seven years was
over the top and exactly, and once he went back,

(40:44):
they had another court case and the judge decided, no,
seven years is not enough for you. You need twenty five.
Then he kind of lost it. I mean, he was
abusive in court and he was told now to go
and service twenty five years, and he asked, now he
needs another appeal. So apparently in Dubai, when you have

(41:07):
your final appeal, it's done with all the the Imarati
states where they would listen to you and decide. And
after they had it, they came back and they said,
now twenty five years is perfect.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Feel Wow, that seems like way too light of a
sentence to me. And I can't believe that they were
going to give him seven. He would have gotten out
if the idiot wouldn't have tried to go an appeal again.
But that is insane to me.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Because I mean, if they gave him seven, he'd been
incarcerated for four years or really, so you would literally
have to spend three years and you'd be out squat frough.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
So how did the search for her body commence?

Speaker 3 (41:59):
So the search which was I mean, I have to
commend the expats from Dubai. They were outstanding. They came
out in their numbers. They knew what they were doing
could be detrimental to them living in Dubai. But when
we organized a search. Nobody hesitated. They came forward and

(42:27):
we actually met on the molo of Dubai on the
top floor, and you know, there was somebody kind of
coordinating and saying, right, you guys in this vehicle, you
got to check out this place. And the thing is,
Dubai is very small until you start looking for somebody.

(42:50):
Then you see the extent of it. And while we
were doing that, we were coordinating and saying, guys, you
go the All of a sudden there was a undercover
or playing clothes policeman and he'd be walking he'd be
walking around taking down registration and I was like, why

(43:11):
would you do that? And also this was the time
of the Ramadan, So one of the guys said, you
know what, let's get out of here. The guys know
what to do. They'll go search real head down to
It was I can't think of the name now, but

(43:33):
it was a restaurant that was closed to the public,
or so it looked, but to expats you could enter
through the back and when you got in there, it
was like a full on like this normal. Ah. The
place was called Leamentry. So he walked into there and

(43:54):
everybody was in there, and I kind of went in
and sat down with you know, the guys that were
instrumental in helping us search and that type of thing,
in organizing everything. And while we were sitting there and chatting,
this guy walks in as well, and I just got
so frustrated. I went straight for him and I said,

(44:14):
what are you doing here? And he says, no, I'm
here to help. So I said, tell me, how do
you help? But taking down registrations, right, you want to
old people to account. Yeah, so if you have no
business being here. And number two, it's Ramadan and everybody's

(44:38):
eating here and you shouldn't be in here, so kind of,
you know, just leave it. Then he was He hung
around a bit and eventually kind of lift. So the
search went on, and it was it wasn't just one day,
it was day in and day out. People would come
forward and offer. I mean, the guy at a safari company,

(45:02):
you offer me two drivers, and you said you got
the guys for a day. You and Dave pick your area,
go and search, and I mean we were like, whoa,
we're going to find it until you take off. You
have no idea what that desert. We kind of we

(45:28):
left at almost the same time. And we went down
one June and then next time I saw Dave was
two and a half hours later. And what are the
chances are that you're going to see anything? Because those
sand dunes move as well. So you start realizing that,
you know, you're in a place that is totally totally

(45:51):
different to what I'm accustomed to. It kind of takes
your mind like will we ever find there? So yeah,
we drove and drove, and eventually I said to the guys,
I said, you know, I appreciate what you guys are doing,
but this is a wild goose chase. We have no

(46:14):
idea of where to go, what to look for, and
just every day with something else you're find in the book,
I put those different things in there, so you're gonna say, I.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Was gonna ask you. I wanted to go back to
the guy that witnessed the actual crime taking place. He
didn't report any of this to the authorities after it happened.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
You know, that's one of the things that I kind
of felt that that's something that you would go to
the priests and say, this is this has transpired. This
guy walked in. Not to my knowledge, what they tried
to do was they got they took statements from them,

(47:05):
but for some reason, there's a certain way they take
a statement from you, and once they take the statement,
it cannot be used in court. That doesn't think. But
later on we actually got legal assistance from Amorti, which

(47:27):
was a topical, perfect gentleman. He did things that no
other UH company or attorney would ever would do, and
he showed us the right way, but also protecting his

(47:48):
rights and his stance in his country. But he chose
to do the right thing. And he also, I mean,
as everybody called me the press brother, he didn't want
to tell me too much in case I went over
the top. Yeah, but he was. Hussein was instrumental in

(48:10):
doing a hell of a lot for the family and
to get a conviction. And one of the before you
just came on, one of the things, there was a
fundraiser and I think there was one hundred and fifty
thousand durhams raised, and I went to him and I said,

(48:34):
I know this is not enough for the court case,
because other attorneys wanted two hundred and fifty thousand durhams
just to look at it. And I ended up giving
him I think it was ninety because I needed to
pay him away and do stuff. And he took a

(48:57):
thousand dyams out of his own pocket and he said,
assist towards what your cause, because I also have a daughter.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Going back to the search, I understand you eventually tried
to employ psychics to assist with this.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Oh. Yes, the psychics kind of came. They only came
in the second month, and I went back because one
of the things is be in South African you can
only stay in Dubai for thirty days. There after you
have to leave and you go and get to your passports,

(49:39):
stampting in and come back. I went and appealed with them,
can you not waiver that? And the guy said, get
on the plane and go. So they made life difficult,
but it didn't stop me. I still continued to do
what I needed to do. Now, as I'm speaking to you,

(50:03):
I slightly slipped and I went off the topic. Now,
one of the things which you don't know is that
a year ago I went to Mauritius for four months
and we were trying to get away from the business
and a different way of running the business. And while
I was there, I got up one morning and I

(50:25):
would see my wife in each eye, and I thought,
what the hell was going on. I didn't have any
alcohol last night. I was a bit strange. And it
lasted for three weeks after numerous doctors appointments and they said,
there's absolutely nothing wrong with you, and it had just subsided.

(50:46):
And my wife said, you just needed to do something
for the office in Jannsburg. He has a laptop. Opened
the laptop and I had lost my memory totally. Wow,
it's now coming back now. While I'm talking to you,
I tend to veer off and then I try and
remember what was I talking about.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
No, you can't read it, but for what the.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
Question you asked me was just remind me you need
to come back you. So that's one of the things
that I I'm having to deal with, and I think
writing the book was one of those that kind of
put my mind that at ease.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
It Do you think it could be stress related? These
symptoms that you had.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
You know, I've been to so many doctors. If one
of them could just stand up and say, you know what,
this is what you had, I'd be so grateful. But
I've been to so many and nobody can say this
is what actually transpired. And the weird part of it
is that I don't have no loss of memory when

(52:00):
I was a youngster. The majority of my memory is work. Yeah,
very interesting. So I'm saying things now and my clientsy
that I reckoned, I have forgotten, or I've had some
of them come to me and say, I remember that
twenty grand I didn't you like, Yeah, right, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Well, I'm glad it's coming back now. We were talking
about you had eventually employed psychics.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Oh, the psychics. Yeah, so the psychics. We kind of
had psychics in essay and psychics in basically it was
all over the place we're in. The everybody was Some
of them would say there's a fee that we want.

(52:51):
Others would say, I do it, no charge. I just
want you to find your sister. But there was one
particular one that really kind of rubbed me up the
wrong way. And it happened in the time when I
went back to essay and my brother came through and

(53:11):
he was there, and I've been told that his psychic
as well. I cannot agree one hundred percent, but anyway,
when I got back, he said he had engaged with
She was actually a British lady that was married to

(53:34):
Amaroti and he's making a lot of headway, and so
I was like, you know, I'm up for it. Let's
go and meet her. And I think this was a
third visit. So when he walked in, he was very
friendly and home. He knew what you know what she acquired.
And one of the strange things I found is that
we went in, she said, can you please write down

(53:58):
what you did this week? I was, hold on, you're
the psychic. You should be telling me what I did.
So I found out a bit strange, and then she
kind of targeted me. Said, oh, you got a cell phone.
I said yes, she said, check out the battery. She was, okay,
it's a put extreme, but anyway, I took it out,
left it there. And I won't say I was aggressive

(54:23):
towards her, but I questioned a lot of the stuff
that you were saying. And also the fact that I
had been in Dubai for a while, and I mean
I wasn't getting up at ten in the morning and
then go have a look. I was up at the
cracker room. I was out there. I sometimes walk for
nine hours, and as a lady telling me that I'm

(54:49):
there to have a good time, I'm like hold on.
But anyway, if she went, she told me, I'm I'm
the younger, the younger brother. I am not there to
look for I'm here for a good time. And I
was like, okay, but I was the elder brother. I

(55:12):
think she had a wire's crossed. But anyway, and she
told me, your sister's alive, and know where she is.
And she describes the spot and as she's describing, and
I've been there, so I know, and I started telling
her that is there. That building is there, she says,
and then you can see the river. I said, no,
you can't. She says, what do you mean. I said no,
because there's this building and there's that building there. There's

(55:35):
no way you can see that. And I said to her,
you know what you say, she's alive. Take me to
where she is. And she says, are you crazy? I'm
married to Amarati. You want me to be locked up?
So I said, I said, take me, stop out there,

(55:55):
tell me that's the place, and drive off. I will
never implicate you. It's not your problem, she refused. Then
she got very aggressive, and I mean when I said aggressive,
she did get aggressive and demanded her money. Wow that

(56:16):
is and I mean nothing was found. I mean there's
On the other hand, we had others that were totally
They came forward and they would they would tell you,
this is what I see. Can you do this type
of thing? And I mean the one day I got
in there and actually she was talking to a family

(56:39):
in Durban and they called me and they said, get
into the car, hid towards this town and begins with
the a every town in Dubai begins with the age.
Oh wow, everything is ours. So I drive and I
drive and I drive, and an hour later I'm still driving.

(57:00):
They say you're going to see these red flowers alongside
the road and lo and be old there they are.
Stop but there's nothing else, absolutely nothing else. Then I
drive on and there's more red flowers and I'll stopped. Eventually,
I was like, you know, how much longer can I

(57:21):
do this? And I mean this has been going on,
psychics giving you information. And when I tell you I drove,
I mean it's crazy. And the things that it did.
I mean total strangers go up to them and say,
can I hire your boat? No, No, we come back
from fishing, We're done. I'm like, what does it cost?

(57:44):
So I'll pay them? Get on the boat, our out
with somebody, one of the psychics said you needed to
go to this place. She's there. Our fifteen minutes out
get to the place. I run up and the one
thing that I found very strange, all these places were open.

(58:06):
So I would run up totally deserted, not a soul anywhere.
And you get there and you're just deflated because you
spent all this time getting there, and then you run
with this anticipation and once you get there, you realize
there's nothing. Now, how you going to get that hour

(58:29):
fifteen minutes back.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
I'm so sorry to hear about all of that. Now,
for the last few minutes, we have tell the audience
anything else important that you feel we should know about
the case, and anything else that you would like to
throw out there to close out with as well.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
One of my it's actually hard because you know, being
South African and the way the country was, you grow
up in this apartheid South Africa, and you fight for
what you believe is right, and you kind of at

(59:12):
the point where you think, okay, the right governments is
in charge and things are going to change, and boy,
oh boy, does that all change for everything that you
fought for. They literally crush it and break you down
to you nothing. The more you insistent in saying that

(59:34):
what you're saying is incorrect, incorrect, they will look in
my face and say to me, whatever you say, will
deny it. So I cannot understand why governments do this.
And I mean one of the guys, he was the

(59:58):
leader of the ANC. We went to his place and
I waited I think four and a half hours to
see him. And once we sat around the table, I thought,
now I can converse and tell him, you know, we
just need some assistance. He fell asleep. WHOA, that's insane,

(01:00:21):
and he got up, fell asleep again. I was like,
maybe he's got some a omen that I don't know
about to be It was frustrating because you wait for
four hours and then the previous guys there was a
big laugh and joke and yeah, we can do this

(01:00:42):
few and I feel it. It's serious and you fall asleep.
So that was very disappointing. And you find the governments
on both sides how you actually treated. And it's I'm
not saying that you need to be treated special or

(01:01:04):
because you've lost someone, but it means something to you.
I just felt that they felt that whoever you lost tough. Yeah,
we don't care. And you know it when you constantly
have stuff for get happening. And the one incident, we

(01:01:25):
are at an appointment with a high ranking police officer and
I said, you know, he said, okay, if we can chat,
and you know, no problem, but he said, before you
come up to chat with me, I need you to
go down to the that in ours nurse just to
do your DNA to make sure that you are family.

(01:01:46):
So I'm like, okay, So off I go give blood
and then I come back to the front desk and
I said to the youngster and I said, yeah, yet
to see the officer. So it looked at me and said, oh,
he's left for the day. I'm like, what do you
mean he's left for the day. He made an appointment.

(01:02:09):
How can you tell me he's left. Sees he's got
more important things to do. And I'm not proud of it,
but I lost it and I let him have one.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
I can't blame you on that one.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
He didn't expect it. And the guy that took me there,
he's still in Dubai. He was like, wow, you just
struck a police officer. Oh Man, And I didn't see
it as a police officer. I saw him as I
don't know. But anyway, I did what I had to

(01:02:45):
and I got out of there and he didn't even
do anything. And I mean that transpired not once they
found back and say I needed give me any cock
and hoole story, tell me you needed to be somewhere
and I would you know, I agree and say okay,
can we research schedule? And nothing at all. It was toughies.

(01:03:09):
So governments, it's I just don't understand them.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
So it seems that they were trying to do everything
they can to minimalize attention and to prevent details about
this from going out, because, like you said, it would
make them look bad.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Yep, that's sad. It's pretty much. I mean, they kept
on like, don't say anything, we'll tell you when you
can go to the or speak about on the news
and that type of thing. And I was like why.
And the thing is, you don't know how long you're
going to wait. And one of the things that we
found out that this particular story was in the news

(01:03:57):
for over a month every single day. The last time
they had that happened was twenty four years ago. Well
it could be a lot longer enough, really wow. So
it was international news. It was always on the radio,
TVs everywhere. And one of the things that I've found

(01:04:20):
is that while I was in Dubai, I met a
fellow South African that was living in the States and
she married the American guy and he was going to
move there, and she gave me a number of a
guy that worked for the radio station. It was a DJ,
and we did a secret interview at nine o'clock at night.

(01:04:44):
Nobody knew about it. Actually there was four of us
did the interview to try and raise awareness and you know,
find out whatever we could. Did you know, the next
morning at six thirty, the secret police approached him and said,
if you air it out the country? How did they

(01:05:08):
find out? And I was sitting ready to listen to
the news at the Cracador and they were like, well,
all ready to go, and they were like, told, we
cannot do it. We'll be just told if we air
anything without the country.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
It seems that justice, even here in the United States,
for many circumstances, is an illusion, and it's almost impossible
to get true justice, especially if the law enforcement that
you're working with doesn't care about the people involved. They
don't care about a proper outcome or investigation. They just

(01:05:50):
care about how it makes them look. That's a huge problem.
That is one of the biggest problems that we could
probably face.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Definitely, definitely, definitely, because you found later on when I,
you know, I kind of stopped the searching because it
was kind of pointless. We didn't have a clue where
we were going. Nobody was assisting us, so I went
the legal route. And when I went the legal route,

(01:06:26):
we had a lot of prayers from from essay and
we'd find that they would go to the certain individuals
and say, no, give us your take on you know,
the story and what is transpired, and they would go
on literally minutes before me and say we are doing

(01:06:48):
the utmost of the family, we're doing everything possible. They
went on and on and on, and I stood there
and actually I was out out about it was I
think it was six o'clock or something in Dubai, and
I was livered to, yeah, that you can make a
statement and yet you're doing nothing, And I kind of

(01:07:13):
lost it on national news and I said kind of
control what I was saying, and I let him have
it and told him that you haven't even phoned the family,
so how can you make a statement so to them
by saying this, you know, like to the public. You know,

(01:07:36):
it's been doing everything, but little did he know I
was going to be directly after him, and I said
it like it is. Yeah, And that's pretty much. They
did absolutely nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Since the trial and the search came to an end.
Did you have anyone reach out with information that may
add to the investigation.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
You know, as far as the investigation. The thing is,
it was so like a close knit type of set
up that involved Mark and I don't know who else,
but it was done in a way that you know,
nobody could. They might still be, but they haven't come
to the fore. It was very difficult to get any information.

(01:08:31):
I mean you get little things, but it's nothing substantial
that's going to change anything. I mean even to the
point where he said he discarded the body, but he
can't tell you where. So my thinking is he called somebody,

(01:08:54):
they took the body, discarded it, and then he thought
he's going to get away with it, but he landed
up getting twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
So there could definitely be others involved with this crime
that are still walking.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Three definitely, definitely, and I think they know about it.
There's somebody in New Zealand. He got he had something
to do with bags and that Mark requested and he
was working for the company. I haven't I don't have

(01:09:30):
his details. I just heard about him. We'll never know.
There's something that you can't be sure of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Well, hopefully this is going to bring attention to my
audience and hopefully they will get your book. And if
anyone out there may have any information, what would be
the best thing that they should do.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Well, I think is I mean, it's it's on the net.
My telephone number is there to help us find Kerri.
And we kind of stuck with that because that's what
we used when we looked for and when we I mean,
it's been seventeen years later that I've decided to write
the book, and now that I've written it, it's We've

(01:10:26):
kept the same caption so people could relate to what transpired.
I mean, we still get some people saying, help us
find Karri. I'm going to help you find it. It's
not that type of.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
A book, but it would be I mean incredible if
people can provide information that may lead to arrests and
convictions of other people involved though right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Yep, there is something else as far as but I'm
not at liberty to say it to see it. I
don't want to be this wild and make accusations. I'd
prefer rather to get all my facts together and make
you know the accusation. Otherwise you leave it up in

(01:11:14):
the a and nobody really believes you. I think you're
just making up stories that type of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Well, I will have all the information you provided in
the description, so everyone can easily check that out as
they listen to this conversation, have a link to the book.
Where can they find the book as well?

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
So the book is on Amazon, And on Amazon is
the book, and there's the digital copy as well, and
it's help us find Cirie. I think Amazon is the
more international. It's like my son he got it who
he was in the in the UK. The other local

(01:12:00):
in South Africa's take a lot and obviously re selling
the book as well at our launches. So we got
run into Patisberg and the final one will be in
Cape Town. But I must say this. Every day I'm
getting calls and sometimes I can't believe that this is
actually happening. But I think it will happen when it

(01:12:23):
needs to happen, not when you wanted to.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Yeah. Well, Kurt, thank you so much for coming on
and presenting this information. It's so important to bring awareness
about these kinds of crimes and the way that they're
handled by law enforcement. It's absolutely atrocious. Hopefully this may
bring you some additional information that could add some closure.
Until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening and we

(01:12:49):
will talk again tomorrow. We'll see y'all then,

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Help Find Kerry: Seeking Justice & Closure for the Death of Kerry Winter | Kurt Winter

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Help Find Kerry: Seeking Justice & Closure for the Death of Kerry Winter | Kurt Winter