Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Forensic Psychology is a podcast that provides an illuminating window
into the workings of the criminal mind. Now here's your host,
doctor Carlos.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back everyone, and welcome back Mike.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you very much for having me doctor. Episode three.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I can't believe it. And today we have a very
fascinating serial killer, Morris Frampton.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well take it away. Tell us about Morris Morris John Frampton.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
This is in nineteen seventy six. And nextly the crime
occurred on ten eineteen seventy six Moore's John Frampton. The
victim was I usually try to do this beforehand. I
always liked to put the victim's name for the Sussex name.
But Agnes Meira Williams, and she was born she was
(01:16):
forty seven years old I believe when this crime occurred,
for day of birth was seven to twenty six, twenty eight.
The cause of death was manual strangulation and she has
also beaten about the head with a blunt instrument in
two thousand and two, Mike partner at the time to
(01:38):
then the case went in South for all these years
and then in two thousand and two my partner was
my partner at the time Greg Mikesell sent the victim's
pubic care sample to the Washington State Patrol Crime Lab
in two thousand and five. They got back to them
and they said, hey, the latter reported seamen was detected
(01:58):
on the victim's pubic care sample and a match was
found from the DNA profile of Morris Frampton. And Frampton
is serving a sentence for first degree murder at Walla
Walla State Penitentiary. That's our number one penitentiaral.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
They call it. People call it the Walls because it's
so old. It's a nation in Washington.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
And October of two thousand and five, detective in Mike
Cell and myself just now I'm working in cold case.
We drove the wall Wall and met with the inmate Frampton.
Of course we had to call ahead, you know, make
arrangements and all that. They told him that, you know,
the homicide detectors want to come and.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Talk to you.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
He was at the time, he was serving time for
killing a woman named Rosemary Stewart, a prostitute who was
murdered at a South Park, Marena on August ninth, nineteen
ninety seven, a little more than a year after the
death of Agnes Williams the case that we're investigating. So
(03:08):
so we get this information which happens. You know that
many of our times we were working case, it takes
like five years versus sell we get we get the DNA.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Now we find out who the suspect is.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
And most of the cases that I worked, I investigated
I think eleven serial murders and convicted seven, not because
of any great part of myself, but because of DNA
was so helpful. But the interview is so crucial, and
so most of time we would find these guys in
(03:42):
the in prison because that's how we've got their d
We've got the DNA, and then all of a sudden
they finally put the DNA in the system. Many times
they're at the last guys to put them in. The
guys were walking out the door and they've been in.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Prison for twenty five years and they say, ah, we
gotta get your DNA sample. They know a guy, get
everyone's DNA sample, okay, both then bing bing bang bing
bing bing. Well, the guy's been in prison for so
many years, and uh, we logged his stuff and also
and then they finally did the guy. So we went.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
There and we had Frampton We had Frampton in the
interview room and he came in. He was a big guy,
I know, but I think I showed you a picture earlier.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I don't know if it will work now, but that's
the picture. That's the picture that we had of him
and white haired guy and a big guy, you know,
six three, you know, big iron stuff. And he was
as as not all the guys, but a lot of guys.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
You know, they ruled the roosts, you know, there's the
big rooster in the prison because they've been in the
joint for you know, twenty years or twenty five years,
and him being so big and he's he's kind of
being a hard ass with us, you know, and we
advise him. We want to talk to him about the
murder we believe he committed. Frampton looked at me and said,
(05:02):
I'm listening.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Frampton. Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We told him that Frampton, Uh they left part of
himself at the crime scene and uh, Frampton the he
looked at me and said, yeah, well, w what did
I leave?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
And I said, he left your DNA.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Lean lean Fornes and uh he started wringing his hands
together and how do I know I left DNA?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Why should I believe you guy. You guys lied to.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Me before, and I'm thinking, I don't before I never
talked to this guy. I showed him the Washington State
Laboratory form, which is something that we law enforcement is
not allowed to do. I mean, they're not allowed to
lie make up make up forms you can lie doing
to a guys say yeah, someone said they've seen you
coming from the scene, or someone said this just to
(05:51):
get the guy to talk, but you cannot create a
form that says, uh, this is the Washington State Crime
Laboratory and you're the guy who did murder. So we
showed him that, and these guys, they're pretty savvy, they
didn't know these kinds of things. And he said, like
I said, you guys like to me before.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I don't mean you.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Two detectives, But those other detectives didn't believe me when
I said I didn't kill the Buchanan girl.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
He was when he was arrested for the initial murder
that he was for the murder that he was convicted of.
He was also tried for this other case which similar
almost completely similar type of situation, but he was acquitted
that murdered and he always stood by saying that I
(06:38):
didn't do that one, and so today I don't know.
I mean, I'm more experienced now in dealing with these
type of cases. And just because they were the same
time of homicides in the same area, it doesn't mean
he was the guy. I've had. This happened me a
couple of times. I'd say, what has to be this guy?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
You know, he's a serial murder from California, and it
comes up to Washington and a mile from murders he
was staying where he was keeping some property from the
other murder victims. The scroll Fine comes up murdered, stabbed,
and positioned exactly the same as he did the other one.
So it had to be ye, Well, turn out probably not.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You mentioned also that during those days in the sixties
and seventies, Cereal does, we're almost tripping.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Over each other, you were, law.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Yes, that's what we did most of all of our cases.
I mean, personally I did.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I think I think I convicted sel I think it
convicted seven and from the sixties and seventies and serial murderers,
and and then all that kind of dried up in
the two thousands, you know, because we were putting so
much DNA into the system and we were getting all
these hits back.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I guys, I mean, this is just wasn't us.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
This was nationally also going across the country in New
York and Chicago and places like that or where they have,
you know, twenty five.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Times more homicides than we do in Seattle.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
And it was fine because people consider Seattle because we
had so many of.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
These famed serial murderers that are like the murder serial
murder capital of the of the world. People said, well,
then all of a sudden DNA came in and all
of a sudden, all the other cities started catching up
to us.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
It's okay, oh, maybe you don't have that many perverses
we thought you had over there.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I'm not sure at the title you want, yeah, yeah,
I know, people say, oh yeah, I have.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Feel said, oh, yeah, your share, and you have a
lot of homicides of people killing women and stuff over there,
And I go, well, for city our size, make sure
we only we averaged for you for decades, we'd only
average fifty homicides year. Baltimore's exact same size averages like
three hundred and fifty homicides year. Chicago last year they
(08:53):
had seven hundred and thirty eight homicides. That that is
completely bizarre. I mean, how our cities can have them
those that many homicides. And I usually measured, usually measured
by four times there by four people who survived, so
they were shot, you know, and they were seriously wounded.
(09:15):
And so in Chicago would be like what you know,
twenty eight hundred people were shot wounded. But in Chicago,
I think you're measured by by eight. Uh, that's like
the height of the height of the of our wars
and Iraq and Iran.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
That's how many people are getting killed over there. And
that's just that's just keep it on.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I don't maybe picking on Chicago my hometown, and I
lived in Chicago, South Chicago. Then later on I moved
to cariam At City when I was young, and then
I became a policeman over there, and and now the
homicides in the south suburbs in Chicago are going through
the roof, I mean, just nuts. So anyway, live in Seattle,
(09:57):
we don't really have that. Uh, we're pretty common in Northwest.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Comparative things are fit starting to pick up now.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
So anyway, with Frampton, he said, you know, say, how
do I know, I, you know, I did these? Did
you guys have the information? And I showed him, uh,
the lab reports, and we talked about, you know, the
chance of being somebody else. I showed him in an
autopsy photo of the victim. Franpton looked at the photograph stated,
(10:29):
looks like she had a lot of injuries. I thought,
I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking, well, that's that's pretty cool. Yeah,
it looks like, yeah, well you're the one who put
the injuries on her.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Then he stated, friend, that say that what I get
out of it for.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Telling you I did it or didn't do it. I
advised Franton that if he did the murder and accept
the responsibility for what we would have no objections or
expertity in the process. H Frantom stated that he would
talk to his brother and his family members and get
back to us. I said, okay, that's fine, but before
(11:03):
you go out, we got to take another DNA sample
from you.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And he said, I already gave you all. I you know,
gave the system like five times. I said, well, we
have to do comparison right now. So he looked over
at my partner Greg, and he looked at me and
he says, uh, I.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Guess I don't have much of a choice. And I said, no, no,
you don't. And uh so then we go. So then
we took we took the DNA sample. We said we'll
get we'll get back to so we get we had down.
We had a nice, you know, four and a half
hour drive back to Seattle from the penitentiary and where
(11:44):
we're talking about, well, probably spend a night over there,
and when I've had a drink or went ahead dinner,
I'm sorry, and and then we have our drive back
to Seattle, and when we talk about the cases. On
October thirty, first of five, early the morning, Morris called, uh,
(12:08):
my partner collects from Washington State Penitentiary. He stated his
real question was if he came back, if we came
back and he pled guilty, what would happen. He told
me he didn't want to cheapen things, that he wanted
to come back and take care of things, do the
responsible thing, which I always kind of rolling my eyes here,
and you want to do the responsible thing.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And but he said, uh, by the time when we
got back there to the wall walla intervac he wanted
to have an attorney and Phaanptom told me that he
couldn't just sign something, that he wanted someone sitting beside
him when he did that, that he wasn't trying to
be difficult, but he wanted me some kind of representation
when he gave uh, when he gave his statement, I said,
(12:53):
no problem. And so then we said.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Oh, so now we got a motion, We got a
quick get get him attorney, We got to call off
the jail, the prison.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
But in three hours later we had a voice message.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
And this is some things get so strange over there,
and it's like, you know, who's thinking about this this
case that's thirty something years old. And my partner received
the voicemail message from Lorraine Williams, daughter of the victim,
Agnus Whims. Williams indicated she wished to speak about her
mother's unself homicide case, and she left two phone numbers
(13:33):
to call her, and out of the blue, she just
thought about calling us, and look at me if we're
going to investigate this case, and you know, I'm looking
at my partner taking on this is this is this
is really weird. And so we call her back and
(13:56):
we told her the case has been reviewed and we'd
update her as anything else. And we also asked her
if she could provide a photograph of her mother.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And we had none with the case fill. And this
is the photo that she sent sent to us. And
can see that. Okay, ye show it again.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
We'll try to find the picture for you.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So now, so now the week goes by and we
have to we have to go back. We have to
go back over.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
There, and we're scrambling now, and we got to get
back to the to the prison. And I remember there
was a bad snowstorm and a rock fell and cup
blocked the block the freeway, so we had to take
a different, like a two hour longer drive and to
get back to the state penitentiary. This is on this
(14:53):
is November seventh, two thousand and five.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So now we're gonna get there. Now we're now we're
gonna we're gonna get his confession.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I kind of want to you know a lot of
times they just want to blow right over, you know, yeah,
I killed her, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Back up, let's find out you know what you exactly
did you know? And uh?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And before Morris is always kind of like the guy
in charge of when he was gonna leave, before he tells, Yeah,
let's know, I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
You know, you know they kind of, you know, the
big roofs rule the roost where.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Or now we're kind of Now he's quite Now he's
starting to understand we're the ones who are going to
be making making the calls and doing what's doing what's right.
These guys are a little bit worried.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
They're more than a little bit worried that they're gonna
get there, they're gonna get jammed up, and uh, we're
gonna move them around the prisons, all that kind of stuff.
So so I asked him.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
I asked him, ask Morris about the homicide bagain Swims.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
He shrugged and said, I didn't know what her name was.
What is that you want to know? I advised Morris
that I want to know where he had met the
victim and how she died. He said, I picked her
up in some bar in South Park. South Park is
the area right where we where he found the first
victim that he killed. We drove around West Seattle and
(16:20):
that's where he lived. And I'm not sure if I'm
not sure if we went through a bar or any
place like that, and well, we were in my blue
plumth Fury, which we knew he owned, and we drove
around West sal and parked under the Admiral Park Bridge.
That's where I left her, and that's that's how he talked.
(16:42):
Then that's you know, that's just where I left her.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
We asked him if you remembered what Streeter was and
he said it was on Belvedere.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It runs in the Admiral Bridge. I asked. I asked
Morris how long was.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
He with the victim and if he had six thirty.
He said that he had spent several hours at and
during that time he had he had sex with her.
He said it started out the sex started out was consensual,
but didn't end that way.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So I kind of wanted to get into that little bit.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Or started out consensual and it means you're going to
be paying her for it, but then all of a sudden,
now she's fighting and not doing exactly what you want.
I asked him, well, how do you how did you
end up? How did you end up killing this victim?
He said, I choked with my hands and at that
(17:35):
point he picked up his hands, picked up his hands
like this, Uh, I troached my hands. I picked her
up one out of the bridge, killed her, drove a
little further.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Down the road and got river, and I said, you
got rid of her? Say, I tossed her out of
the truck and rolled her down this hill. Okay, so
what about her close? I got rid of her clothes
after the fact, I remember, I don't remember where, and
she was found with no clothes on.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
I think she just hit like her Her underwear was
like around one of the legs, and she had some
stockings on all soul.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Just for to know, it makes a difference because he
has a complete disregard for this person, and not that
other ones don't, but this is a whole different mo because.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
He leaves her naked and just throws her on the side.
Does it throw down an embankment or just on the
side of the road or no? It was it was
it was in the city. It was in West Seattle,
but it was very It's kind of rural where he
was at, and it's the back roads and stuff.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And he rolled her down this was He tossed her
and she rolled down the stingep, steep embankment until she
came to a rest on the side. And in the
area that was only geez I think it was only
less than a mile from where he was living at
the time.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So he's very very familiar with this area.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Especially if people who live in West Seattle, UH lot
on tensity they have, they end up staying in West
Seattle because it's kind of we border, you know, West Seattle,
uh borders of downtown area and stuff, and you have
to take you know, there's two bridges on where you
can get over over there. So my people just stay
in West l and then they never leave, you know,
the airports to the south of them, and why go
(19:22):
into the city being be over here it's right next
to it, right on the water. So he was very
once again as a lot of serial murderers.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Are, and they're very familiar with the area that they
work in that they work in are hunting. So we
asked him, well, after killing the victim, he said, he
went home and I never told anyone what happened. I asked.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I asked Morris how he'd gotten the victim intervene. He said,
I just rolled it down the hill and that's all.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I said.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Do you remember anything about the vehicle used that night?
And he said that he might have been driving a
grain late forties International Telephone truck and that's actually what
did he said, A purchase a truck from someone at
the South Park Marina. When he said south Park Arena,
my arears kind of left because that's that's where he was, Uh,
(20:21):
that's where he killed the other girl, I mean further,
his second victim, which was less than a year after that.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So then we asked.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Him for what we usually do, which most homicide detectives
will do, is you talk to him. You talk to them,
and you talk to them and then you'll take a
formal statement from them. And that's actually what he did
in this part, and he gave tap tapes a tape
statement to us in confessing to the.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Murders of Agnes Williams. At that point then done, we
left and on the twenty fourth of six, about two
weeks later, we received a report to test details and
(21:14):
testing on the reference DNA sample we took from Frampton
and imported States and partial mail profile obtained from the
sperm fraction matches de obtained from the reference sample of
Morse Frampton. And so we felt.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Now we had now we had the right guy, and
the DNA proved that, the statement proved it, and he
was actually living in the area. So we had we
had all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
We had all we had.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
All of the we had what we needed to charge
him with and to convict him with. And in the
cases that I've worked, all these murray cases, we I've
only had like two people who went to try well
and then at trial because the evidence that we have.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Number one, you don't you don't send losers. You're not
going to charge you me with a loser case or
or case that's fifty to fifty. You don't. You don't
do that. Now you've got you have to have a
solid case, you know. Prospers Off said, WHOA, what about this?
Nobody wants to get a loss on their hands. And
uh so we were pretty solid.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
And on August tenth of six in front of Ferior
Court Judge Comstock Frampton, he pled guilty to murder in
the second degree. Once again, I said, he was already
doing this, he was already doing time. He had time
left on the books from his uh from the homicide
(22:46):
that he committed less than a year after that. And
then October sixth he was sentenced to two hundred and
five months minimum and a maximum life in prison. So
he still has ways to go. He probably has about
(23:07):
five or sixty more years to do the minimum range.
But I'm hoping that he never gets out of jail again,
never never gets out of prison again, just for the
defense of these two women, women that he killed so
viciously and tossed the side the road like garbage and
position the one, the first one and their second one.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So that's something I wanted to explore with you too,
when they position them. Now we have a different ballgame too,
don't we.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yes, what are they doing there? Well, they're completely degrading
the degrading the victim. And that's how they are, you know,
it's it's a lot of it's like when they're doing
the which I found out from these cases. And the
last case that.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
We we talked about was Sandra Bowman case and the
suffrag in that case when we found a seamen on
her pubic is also they're they're instead.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
They're raping these people.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
He is in the Sandra bow In case, he was
raping her as he's stabbing her and you know, and
he's penetrating her, but then again he's not even inside her.
But the rhythm of the stabbing is what it's all about.
To these people, it's not the intercourse. And then they turnabile.
I've had him numerous cases and they turn them over.
(24:26):
Now they're stabbing them in the back.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
You know, bors was he strangling her while he was
having sex with her?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Do we know?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh he was okay, yes, statistic as well. He was
getting off on that.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yes, he has the hand and his hands on. But
then he bludgeoned her.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
But he bludgeoned her after she's already dead, and.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So there was anger after that.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Oh yeah, And well it's also very ritual, you know,
that's what that's what I'm doing. This is this is
their way of having you know, having their sport. And
the first woman that he had, you know, or another one,
they positioned themselves grotesquely, uh you know, with the legs
(25:10):
sprayed wide open, or.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
They put them in position, or they put their hands.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I've had cases like that where they're you know, putting
the victim's hands over pubic hares and stuff over her
breast or something like that. Or you see them biting
by bide marks on the breast or on the thighs,
stab wounds in the buttocks. That that's a different story
also that were they just having them lightly in the
(25:36):
buttox numerous, numerous times. The first case that I think
we you and I talked about was Dwayne Harris one.
He did at this his last victimle and when she.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Pulled a knife on it, cut his hands severely, and
then he cut her throat and killed her. But then
he still fell in time to pull her pants.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Down and stabber in the buttocks slowly, repeatedly, but as
he was bleeding profusely late.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So it's something that we learned all the time. I
mean more that we've learned over the years, over the
years of doing these type of cases. We've been educated
by these serial murderers. And before we see and we said,
it has to be this person, has to be that person,
and he has to be escape to our mental institution,
(26:24):
and no, that's not the case at all.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You Unfortunately, now we have William Gacy and Dennis Raider.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
William William Gacy, I know the clown all right, as
John Gacy, John Gaysey, that's right, gay And I was
in the I was in the police academy in Chicago,
the co Kaine Sheriff's Academy, and we did the guys
who did the crime scene on that gave us a
lot of lecture on that because this was I was
(26:53):
in the crime. I was an academy in nineteen eighty
right when he was was.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Caught and he was and he was a clown.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
And I still I still believe he owned a construction
company and then he pretend like he was a clown.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
He go places and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
And one of his one of his tricks, tricks and
how to get people larned and this type of stuff.
And I think Brian Denney he played him in the in.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
A movie.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
And who he did it, the late Brian Denny. He
did a great job and he kept showing it. He
put handcuffs on, he'd be able to break up free
of the handcuffs. Well, then he put him on his
victims and then well then they couldn't get out.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Then he had them. Yeah, and it was just just
just was just bizarre.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Anybody's got clown phobias. It was like the worst night
or ever.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah. Yeah, he wondered, why stay people do that? I
don't like that. Does the clown look like? What are
you talking about?
Speaker 4 (27:50):
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
And I thought I really loved clowns. No, No, no,
they started covering themselves up once again. So in this
in this case, here at all we we we we learned,
we learned a lot, but of course there was we
learned it twenty five after twenty five years after these
(28:13):
the victims were killed.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So many of the cases that we you and I
spoke earlier, that we've that I've worked on, we had
such a ration of these types of homicides by serial killers,
and we won't be able to sell them because well,
number one, we didn't have DNA. Uh So things are
a little bit different back then, and we're we're blessed,
you know, to get DNA and to solve solve all
(28:39):
these murders. And still some of the it was it
was hard for a lot of the families because we
we saw the case with the parents already parents are
already decease themselves or other loved ones or friends passed
without wondering you know that, you know, are they ever
going to sell this person or all? So I think
(29:00):
it's this person here, Well it wasn't that person. Was
this person over here. So we're we're lucky on.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That part, lucky as you don't working all the case
or talk to all the effects that you work on
this case, I don't see a house we would have
been all solved. It wasn't. It wasn't for DNA. You
don't have a night witness, so kind of kept killing.
Oh that well, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
They One of the things we found about these serial killers
they would get a little bit sloppy. They thought they
were real clever, but they get sloppy. That's not come
they end up going to prison for life already.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
And but it's still still still thing that stands out.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
To most of me is is these guys when they're supports,
it's not about sex. It was none of it is
about sex at all.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
They're getting off by doing the strangling, by doing the stabbing,
by doing of bludgeoning, by doing the positioning, by degrading
the victim.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
That's what it is. That they literally hate women.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And as we found out in this case here Morris
framped him. He was, you know, torturing one of his wives,
who thank god, you know, survived, And just these.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
People are just rotten devils.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Did you ever get into their past with any of them?
Speaker 4 (30:28):
A couple of times, but you know, I most of
the times I'm interviewing these uh, these guys in the prison.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I don't really have all that much time. I would like.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I like to go back to but I really really
I go back me once or twice, and then that's it.
I can't really now the representative and now I'm charging them.
They're charging and then I can't represent I can't go
and interview them.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Let's have the permission. Then we're not going to risk that.
So no, I don't. I don't really get I never.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Really get a chance to interview them that much. But
the few people that I have talked to before who
guys would call me up, like the first case said
I think you. And I spoke to Dwayne Lee Harris
named Chili Willie. He'd call me up or I visited
him the day the day I retired in Seattle, last
(31:17):
day I last day I worked, I had to go
to the president and interview with somebody. And I said,
as long as i'm here, I'm going to go talk
to Chili Willie.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
And I brought him in there, brought him down a room.
He kind of looked at me and nodded, and he goes, oh, yeah,
well you used to look in real dapperings out dressed
in a suit, and slacks and all that kind of
because yeah, so I always used to dress and I'm
thinking and he never dressed like that as a brithumant life.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
He always has army coats and tigus on stuff like that.
But he says, yeah, I didn't like that, and I
watched it short and you did, and you were talking
about talking about me, uh, you.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Know, raping him. I never had a rape anybody. That
was all.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
You know, they gave it to me, And I admitted,
I said, you know what, You're right, they did give
it to you. You know, they gave to him to
get sex from for the rock cocaine that he was
giving them. But then right when he got he gave
them the cocaine stuff and they had sex on that.
Then at that point then he just would start talking
(32:17):
a real deep voice. I don't know if there's a
if you know what that means.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
But he would just get in the debate and he
started manipulating his hands. And one of the things that
I learned about the serial killers and stuff is that
when you're talking about when they're talking about the homicides.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
That they if they if they're going to talk about homicides,
they will motion. I mean with their hands. They'll show
how they're throttling the victim by her neck, or they'll
they'll simulate how they're striking them with a metal bar
or brick or whatever they're doing, or how they're stabbing them,
(32:56):
you know, and how they're holding the knife to them himself,
you know. And and I remember I asked one guy, uh,
you know, did you uh actually, what's the name, uh
John Kennedy?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I said, well, did you have did you have sex? Story? Again?
After she was dead and and my partner was giving
me grief.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
By later he goes he looked at me like, oh
my god, I got to take a shower, just talk
to this detective man.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
He grossed me out, thinking I'm gonna have sex with
this dead person, you know, I said. But but to
him it was no big deal. You know, you stabbed
his girl forty times and turn over to her forty
more times. They have their morals. I guess that sick detective.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
You know, i'd that laugh. I think that's not gonna
be good. I think for a second. Well, thank you
so much Mike again for another story and really giving
us good insight into the mind of the serial killer.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Well, thank you for having me, and I say these
cases I always had, always got my copies of the
case that I review, and I think about these victims,
the victims family, and how many years has gone by
and I still hear from a few of them family
members and stuff and shows like you, shows like that
(34:21):
you're putting on.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I think it is great for everybody. The's justice for people.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Absolutely, there is justice and I can't That's one of
the things we like about our cold Case podcast where
we talk about the cases have been solved because it
was a lot of clature of these families.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, wonderful stuff. Thanks again, Thanks to everyone. Make sure
to share, subscribe and hit that I like button. Truly
would appreciate
Forensic Psychology is a podcast that provides an illuminating window
into the workings of the criminal mind. Now here's your host,
doctor Carlos.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back everyone, and welcome back Mike.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you very much for having me doctor. Episode three.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I can't believe it. And today we have a very
fascinating serial killer, Morris Frampton.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well take it away. Tell us about Morris Morris John Frampton.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
This is in nineteen seventy six. And nextly the crime
occurred on ten eineteen seventy six Moore's John Frampton. The
victim was I usually try to do this beforehand. I
always liked to put the victim's name for the Sussex name.
But Agnes Meira Williams, and she was born she was
(01:16):
forty seven years old I believe when this crime occurred,
for day of birth was seven to twenty six, twenty eight.
The cause of death was manual strangulation and she has
also beaten about the head with a blunt instrument in
two thousand and two, Mike partner at the time to
(01:38):
then the case went in South for all these years
and then in two thousand and two my partner was
my partner at the time Greg Mikesell sent the victim's
pubic care sample to the Washington State Patrol Crime Lab
in two thousand and five. They got back to them
and they said, hey, the latter reported seamen was detected
(01:58):
on the victim's pubic care sample and a match was
found from the DNA profile of Morris Frampton. And Frampton
is serving a sentence for first degree murder at Walla
Walla State Penitentiary. That's our number one penitentiaral.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
They call it. People call it the Walls because it's
so old. It's a nation in Washington.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
And October of two thousand and five, detective in Mike
Cell and myself just now I'm working in cold case.
We drove the wall Wall and met with the inmate Frampton.
Of course we had to call ahead, you know, make
arrangements and all that. They told him that, you know,
the homicide detectors want to come and.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Talk to you.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
He was at the time, he was serving time for
killing a woman named Rosemary Stewart, a prostitute who was
murdered at a South Park, Marena on August ninth, nineteen
ninety seven, a little more than a year after the
death of Agnes Williams the case that we're investigating. So
(03:08):
so we get this information which happens. You know that
many of our times we were working case, it takes
like five years versus sell we get we get the DNA.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Now we find out who the suspect is.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
And most of the cases that I worked, I investigated
I think eleven serial murders and convicted seven, not because
of any great part of myself, but because of DNA
was so helpful. But the interview is so crucial, and
so most of time we would find these guys in
(03:42):
the in prison because that's how we've got their d
We've got the DNA, and then all of a sudden
they finally put the DNA in the system. Many times
they're at the last guys to put them in. The
guys were walking out the door and they've been in.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Prison for twenty five years and they say, ah, we
gotta get your DNA sample. They know a guy, get
everyone's DNA sample, okay, both then bing bing bang bing
bing bing. Well, the guy's been in prison for so
many years, and uh, we logged his stuff and also
and then they finally did the guy. So we went.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
There and we had Frampton We had Frampton in the
interview room and he came in. He was a big guy,
I know, but I think I showed you a picture earlier.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I don't know if it will work now, but that's
the picture. That's the picture that we had of him
and white haired guy and a big guy, you know,
six three, you know, big iron stuff. And he was
as as not all the guys, but a lot of guys.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
You know, they ruled the roosts, you know, there's the
big rooster in the prison because they've been in the
joint for you know, twenty years or twenty five years,
and him being so big and he's he's kind of
being a hard ass with us, you know, and we
advise him. We want to talk to him about the
murder we believe he committed. Frampton looked at me and said,
(05:02):
I'm listening.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Frampton. Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We told him that Frampton, Uh they left part of
himself at the crime scene and uh, Frampton the he
looked at me and said, yeah, well, w what did
I leave?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
And I said, he left your DNA.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Lean lean Fornes and uh he started wringing his hands
together and how do I know I left DNA?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Why should I believe you guy. You guys lied to.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Me before, and I'm thinking, I don't before I never
talked to this guy. I showed him the Washington State
Laboratory form, which is something that we law enforcement is
not allowed to do. I mean, they're not allowed to
lie make up make up forms you can lie doing
to a guys say yeah, someone said they've seen you
coming from the scene, or someone said this just to
(05:51):
get the guy to talk, but you cannot create a
form that says, uh, this is the Washington State Crime
Laboratory and you're the guy who did murder. So we
showed him that, and these guys, they're pretty savvy, they
didn't know these kinds of things. And he said, like
I said, you guys like to me before.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I don't mean you.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Two detectives, But those other detectives didn't believe me when
I said I didn't kill the Buchanan girl.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
He was when he was arrested for the initial murder
that he was for the murder that he was convicted of.
He was also tried for this other case which similar
almost completely similar type of situation, but he was acquitted
that murdered and he always stood by saying that I
(06:38):
didn't do that one, and so today I don't know.
I mean, I'm more experienced now in dealing with these
type of cases. And just because they were the same
time of homicides in the same area, it doesn't mean
he was the guy. I've had. This happened me a
couple of times. I'd say, what has to be this guy?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
You know, he's a serial murder from California, and it
comes up to Washington and a mile from murders he
was staying where he was keeping some property from the
other murder victims. The scroll Fine comes up murdered, stabbed,
and positioned exactly the same as he did the other one.
So it had to be ye, Well, turn out probably not.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You mentioned also that during those days in the sixties
and seventies, Cereal does, we're almost tripping.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Over each other, you were, law.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Yes, that's what we did most of all of our cases.
I mean, personally I did.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I think I think I convicted sel I think it
convicted seven and from the sixties and seventies and serial murderers,
and and then all that kind of dried up in
the two thousands, you know, because we were putting so
much DNA into the system and we were getting all
these hits back.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I guys, I mean, this is just wasn't us.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
This was nationally also going across the country in New
York and Chicago and places like that or where they have,
you know, twenty five.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Times more homicides than we do in Seattle.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
And it was fine because people consider Seattle because we
had so many of.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
These famed serial murderers that are like the murder serial
murder capital of the of the world. People said, well,
then all of a sudden DNA came in and all
of a sudden, all the other cities started catching up
to us.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
It's okay, oh, maybe you don't have that many perverses
we thought you had over there.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I'm not sure at the title you want, yeah, yeah,
I know, people say, oh yeah, I have.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Feel said, oh, yeah, your share, and you have a
lot of homicides of people killing women and stuff over there,
And I go, well, for city our size, make sure
we only we averaged for you for decades, we'd only
average fifty homicides year. Baltimore's exact same size averages like
three hundred and fifty homicides year. Chicago last year they
(08:53):
had seven hundred and thirty eight homicides. That that is
completely bizarre. I mean, how our cities can have them
those that many homicides. And I usually measured, usually measured
by four times there by four people who survived, so
they were shot, you know, and they were seriously wounded.
(09:15):
And so in Chicago would be like what you know,
twenty eight hundred people were shot wounded. But in Chicago,
I think you're measured by by eight. Uh, that's like
the height of the height of the of our wars
and Iraq and Iran.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
That's how many people are getting killed over there. And
that's just that's just keep it on.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I don't maybe picking on Chicago my hometown, and I
lived in Chicago, South Chicago. Then later on I moved
to cariam At City when I was young, and then
I became a policeman over there, and and now the
homicides in the south suburbs in Chicago are going through
the roof, I mean, just nuts. So anyway, live in Seattle,
(09:57):
we don't really have that. Uh, we're pretty common in Northwest.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Comparative things are fit starting to pick up now.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
So anyway, with Frampton, he said, you know, say, how
do I know, I, you know, I did these? Did
you guys have the information? And I showed him, uh,
the lab reports, and we talked about, you know, the
chance of being somebody else. I showed him in an
autopsy photo of the victim. Franpton looked at the photograph stated,
(10:29):
looks like she had a lot of injuries. I thought,
I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking, well, that's that's pretty cool. Yeah,
it looks like, yeah, well you're the one who put
the injuries on her.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Then he stated, friend, that say that what I get
out of it for.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Telling you I did it or didn't do it. I
advised Franton that if he did the murder and accept
the responsibility for what we would have no objections or
expertity in the process. H Frantom stated that he would
talk to his brother and his family members and get
back to us. I said, okay, that's fine, but before
(11:03):
you go out, we got to take another DNA sample
from you.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And he said, I already gave you all. I you know,
gave the system like five times. I said, well, we
have to do comparison right now. So he looked over
at my partner Greg, and he looked at me and
he says, uh, I.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Guess I don't have much of a choice. And I said, no, no,
you don't. And uh so then we go. So then
we took we took the DNA sample. We said we'll
get we'll get back to so we get we had down.
We had a nice, you know, four and a half
hour drive back to Seattle from the penitentiary and where
(11:44):
we're talking about, well, probably spend a night over there,
and when I've had a drink or went ahead dinner,
I'm sorry, and and then we have our drive back
to Seattle, and when we talk about the cases. On
October thirty, first of five, early the morning, Morris called, uh,
(12:08):
my partner collects from Washington State Penitentiary. He stated his
real question was if he came back, if we came
back and he pled guilty, what would happen. He told
me he didn't want to cheapen things, that he wanted
to come back and take care of things, do the
responsible thing, which I always kind of rolling my eyes here,
and you want to do the responsible thing.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And but he said, uh, by the time when we
got back there to the wall walla intervac he wanted
to have an attorney and Phaanptom told me that he
couldn't just sign something, that he wanted someone sitting beside
him when he did that, that he wasn't trying to
be difficult, but he wanted me some kind of representation
when he gave uh, when he gave his statement, I said,
(12:53):
no problem. And so then we said.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Oh, so now we got a motion, We got a
quick get get him attorney, We got to call off
the jail, the prison.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
But in three hours later we had a voice message.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
And this is some things get so strange over there,
and it's like, you know, who's thinking about this this
case that's thirty something years old. And my partner received
the voicemail message from Lorraine Williams, daughter of the victim,
Agnus Whims. Williams indicated she wished to speak about her
mother's unself homicide case, and she left two phone numbers
(13:33):
to call her, and out of the blue, she just
thought about calling us, and look at me if we're
going to investigate this case, and you know, I'm looking
at my partner taking on this is this is this
is really weird. And so we call her back and
(13:56):
we told her the case has been reviewed and we'd
update her as anything else. And we also asked her
if she could provide a photograph of her mother.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And we had none with the case fill. And this
is the photo that she sent sent to us. And
can see that. Okay, ye show it again.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
We'll try to find the picture for you.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So now, so now the week goes by and we
have to we have to go back. We have to
go back over.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
There, and we're scrambling now, and we got to get
back to the to the prison. And I remember there
was a bad snowstorm and a rock fell and cup
blocked the block the freeway, so we had to take
a different, like a two hour longer drive and to
get back to the state penitentiary. This is on this
(14:53):
is November seventh, two thousand and five.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So now we're gonna get there. Now we're now we're
gonna we're gonna get his confession.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I kind of want to you know a lot of
times they just want to blow right over, you know, yeah,
I killed her, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Back up, let's find out you know what you exactly
did you know? And uh?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And before Morris is always kind of like the guy
in charge of when he was gonna leave, before he tells, Yeah,
let's know, I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
You know, you know they kind of, you know, the
big roofs rule the roost where.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Or now we're kind of Now he's quite Now he's
starting to understand we're the ones who are going to
be making making the calls and doing what's doing what's right.
These guys are a little bit worried.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
They're more than a little bit worried that they're gonna
get there, they're gonna get jammed up, and uh, we're
gonna move them around the prisons, all that kind of stuff.
So so I asked him.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
I asked him, ask Morris about the homicide bagain Swims.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
He shrugged and said, I didn't know what her name was.
What is that you want to know? I advised Morris
that I want to know where he had met the
victim and how she died. He said, I picked her
up in some bar in South Park. South Park is
the area right where we where he found the first
victim that he killed. We drove around West Seattle and
(16:20):
that's where he lived. And I'm not sure if I'm
not sure if we went through a bar or any
place like that, and well, we were in my blue
plumth Fury, which we knew he owned, and we drove
around West sal and parked under the Admiral Park Bridge.
That's where I left her, and that's that's how he talked.
(16:42):
Then that's you know, that's just where I left her.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
We asked him if you remembered what Streeter was and
he said it was on Belvedere.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It runs in the Admiral Bridge. I asked. I asked
Morris how long was.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
He with the victim and if he had six thirty.
He said that he had spent several hours at and
during that time he had he had sex with her.
He said it started out the sex started out was consensual,
but didn't end that way.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So I kind of wanted to get into that little bit.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Or started out consensual and it means you're going to
be paying her for it, but then all of a sudden,
now she's fighting and not doing exactly what you want.
I asked him, well, how do you how did you
end up? How did you end up killing this victim?
He said, I choked with my hands and at that
(17:35):
point he picked up his hands, picked up his hands
like this, Uh, I troached my hands. I picked her
up one out of the bridge, killed her, drove a
little further.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Down the road and got river, and I said, you
got rid of her? Say, I tossed her out of
the truck and rolled her down this hill. Okay, so
what about her close? I got rid of her clothes
after the fact, I remember, I don't remember where, and
she was found with no clothes on.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
I think she just hit like her Her underwear was
like around one of the legs, and she had some
stockings on all soul.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Just for to know, it makes a difference because he
has a complete disregard for this person, and not that
other ones don't, but this is a whole different mo because.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
He leaves her naked and just throws her on the side.
Does it throw down an embankment or just on the
side of the road or no? It was it was
it was in the city. It was in West Seattle,
but it was very It's kind of rural where he
was at, and it's the back roads and stuff.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And he rolled her down this was He tossed her
and she rolled down the stingep, steep embankment until she
came to a rest on the side. And in the
area that was only geez I think it was only
less than a mile from where he was living at
the time.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So he's very very familiar with this area.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Especially if people who live in West Seattle, UH lot
on tensity they have, they end up staying in West
Seattle because it's kind of we border, you know, West Seattle,
uh borders of downtown area and stuff, and you have
to take you know, there's two bridges on where you
can get over over there. So my people just stay
in West l and then they never leave, you know,
the airports to the south of them, and why go
(19:22):
into the city being be over here it's right next
to it, right on the water. So he was very
once again as a lot of serial murderers.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Are, and they're very familiar with the area that they
work in that they work in are hunting. So we
asked him, well, after killing the victim, he said, he
went home and I never told anyone what happened. I asked.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I asked Morris how he'd gotten the victim intervene. He said,
I just rolled it down the hill and that's all.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I said.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Do you remember anything about the vehicle used that night?
And he said that he might have been driving a
grain late forties International Telephone truck and that's actually what
did he said, A purchase a truck from someone at
the South Park Marina. When he said south Park Arena,
my arears kind of left because that's that's where he was, Uh,
(20:21):
that's where he killed the other girl, I mean further,
his second victim, which was less than a year after that.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So then we asked.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Him for what we usually do, which most homicide detectives
will do, is you talk to him. You talk to them,
and you talk to them and then you'll take a
formal statement from them. And that's actually what he did
in this part, and he gave tap tapes a tape
statement to us in confessing to the.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Murders of Agnes Williams. At that point then done, we
left and on the twenty fourth of six, about two
weeks later, we received a report to test details and
(21:14):
testing on the reference DNA sample we took from Frampton
and imported States and partial mail profile obtained from the
sperm fraction matches de obtained from the reference sample of
Morse Frampton. And so we felt.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Now we had now we had the right guy, and
the DNA proved that, the statement proved it, and he
was actually living in the area. So we had we
had all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
We had all we had.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
All of the we had what we needed to charge
him with and to convict him with. And in the
cases that I've worked, all these murray cases, we I've
only had like two people who went to try well
and then at trial because the evidence that we have.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Number one, you don't you don't send losers. You're not
going to charge you me with a loser case or
or case that's fifty to fifty. You don't. You don't
do that. Now you've got you have to have a
solid case, you know. Prospers Off said, WHOA, what about this?
Nobody wants to get a loss on their hands. And
uh so we were pretty solid.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
And on August tenth of six in front of Ferior
Court Judge Comstock Frampton, he pled guilty to murder in
the second degree. Once again, I said, he was already
doing this, he was already doing time. He had time
left on the books from his uh from the homicide
(22:46):
that he committed less than a year after that. And
then October sixth he was sentenced to two hundred and
five months minimum and a maximum life in prison. So
he still has ways to go. He probably has about
(23:07):
five or sixty more years to do the minimum range.
But I'm hoping that he never gets out of jail again,
never never gets out of prison again, just for the
defense of these two women, women that he killed so
viciously and tossed the side the road like garbage and
position the one, the first one and their second one.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So that's something I wanted to explore with you too,
when they position them. Now we have a different ballgame too,
don't we.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yes, what are they doing there? Well, they're completely degrading
the degrading the victim. And that's how they are, you know,
it's it's a lot of it's like when they're doing
the which I found out from these cases. And the
last case that.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
We we talked about was Sandra Bowman case and the
suffrag in that case when we found a seamen on
her pubic is also they're they're instead.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
They're raping these people.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
He is in the Sandra bow In case, he was
raping her as he's stabbing her and you know, and
he's penetrating her, but then again he's not even inside her.
But the rhythm of the stabbing is what it's all about.
To these people, it's not the intercourse. And then they turnabile.
I've had him numerous cases and they turn them over.
(24:26):
Now they're stabbing them in the back.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
You know, bors was he strangling her while he was
having sex with her?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Do we know?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh he was okay, yes, statistic as well. He was
getting off on that.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yes, he has the hand and his hands on. But
then he bludgeoned her.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
But he bludgeoned her after she's already dead, and.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So there was anger after that.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Oh yeah, And well it's also very ritual, you know,
that's what that's what I'm doing. This is this is
their way of having you know, having their sport. And
the first woman that he had, you know, or another one,
they positioned themselves grotesquely, uh you know, with the legs
(25:10):
sprayed wide open, or.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
They put them in position, or they put their hands.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I've had cases like that where they're you know, putting
the victim's hands over pubic hares and stuff over her
breast or something like that. Or you see them biting
by bide marks on the breast or on the thighs,
stab wounds in the buttocks. That that's a different story
also that were they just having them lightly in the
(25:36):
buttox numerous, numerous times. The first case that I think
we you and I talked about was Dwayne Harris one.
He did at this his last victimle and when she.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Pulled a knife on it, cut his hands severely, and
then he cut her throat and killed her. But then
he still fell in time to pull her pants.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Down and stabber in the buttocks slowly, repeatedly, but as
he was bleeding profusely late.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So it's something that we learned all the time. I
mean more that we've learned over the years, over the
years of doing these type of cases. We've been educated
by these serial murderers. And before we see and we said,
it has to be this person, has to be that person,
and he has to be escape to our mental institution,
(26:24):
and no, that's not the case at all.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You Unfortunately, now we have William Gacy and Dennis Raider.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
William William Gacy, I know the clown all right, as
John Gacy, John Gaysey, that's right, gay And I was
in the I was in the police academy in Chicago,
the co Kaine Sheriff's Academy, and we did the guys
who did the crime scene on that gave us a
lot of lecture on that because this was I was
(26:53):
in the crime. I was an academy in nineteen eighty
right when he was was.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Caught and he was and he was a clown.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
And I still I still believe he owned a construction
company and then he pretend like he was a clown.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
He go places and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
And one of his one of his tricks, tricks and
how to get people larned and this type of stuff.
And I think Brian Denney he played him in the in.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
A movie.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
And who he did it, the late Brian Denny. He
did a great job and he kept showing it. He
put handcuffs on, he'd be able to break up free
of the handcuffs. Well, then he put him on his
victims and then well then they couldn't get out.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Then he had them. Yeah, and it was just just
just was just bizarre.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Anybody's got clown phobias. It was like the worst night
or ever.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah. Yeah, he wondered, why stay people do that? I
don't like that. Does the clown look like? What are
you talking about?
Speaker 4 (27:50):
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
And I thought I really loved clowns. No, No, no,
they started covering themselves up once again. So in this
in this case, here at all we we we we learned,
we learned a lot, but of course there was we
learned it twenty five after twenty five years after these
(28:13):
the victims were killed.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So many of the cases that we you and I
spoke earlier, that we've that I've worked on, we had
such a ration of these types of homicides by serial killers,
and we won't be able to sell them because well,
number one, we didn't have DNA. Uh So things are
a little bit different back then, and we're we're blessed,
you know, to get DNA and to solve solve all
(28:39):
these murders. And still some of the it was it
was hard for a lot of the families because we
we saw the case with the parents already parents are
already decease themselves or other loved ones or friends passed
without wondering you know that, you know, are they ever
going to sell this person or all? So I think
(29:00):
it's this person here, Well it wasn't that person. Was
this person over here. So we're we're lucky on.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That part, lucky as you don't working all the case
or talk to all the effects that you work on
this case, I don't see a house we would have
been all solved. It wasn't. It wasn't for DNA. You
don't have a night witness, so kind of kept killing.
Oh that well, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
They One of the things we found about these serial killers
they would get a little bit sloppy. They thought they
were real clever, but they get sloppy. That's not come
they end up going to prison for life already.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
And but it's still still still thing that stands out.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
To most of me is is these guys when they're supports,
it's not about sex. It was none of it is
about sex at all.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
They're getting off by doing the strangling, by doing the stabbing,
by doing of bludgeoning, by doing the positioning, by degrading
the victim.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
That's what it is. That they literally hate women.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And as we found out in this case here Morris
framped him. He was, you know, torturing one of his wives,
who thank god, you know, survived, And just these.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
People are just rotten devils.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Did you ever get into their past with any of them?
Speaker 4 (30:28):
A couple of times, but you know, I most of
the times I'm interviewing these uh, these guys in the prison.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I don't really have all that much time. I would like.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I like to go back to but I really really
I go back me once or twice, and then that's it.
I can't really now the representative and now I'm charging them.
They're charging and then I can't represent I can't go
and interview them.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Let's have the permission. Then we're not going to risk that.
So no, I don't. I don't really get I never.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Really get a chance to interview them that much. But
the few people that I have talked to before who
guys would call me up, like the first case said
I think you. And I spoke to Dwayne Lee Harris
named Chili Willie. He'd call me up or I visited
him the day the day I retired in Seattle, last
(31:17):
day I last day I worked, I had to go
to the president and interview with somebody. And I said,
as long as i'm here, I'm going to go talk
to Chili Willie.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
And I brought him in there, brought him down a room.
He kind of looked at me and nodded, and he goes, oh, yeah,
well you used to look in real dapperings out dressed
in a suit, and slacks and all that kind of
because yeah, so I always used to dress and I'm
thinking and he never dressed like that as a brithumant life.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
He always has army coats and tigus on stuff like that.
But he says, yeah, I didn't like that, and I
watched it short and you did, and you were talking
about talking about me, uh, you.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Know, raping him. I never had a rape anybody. That
was all.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
You know, they gave it to me, And I admitted,
I said, you know what, You're right, they did give
it to you. You know, they gave to him to
get sex from for the rock cocaine that he was
giving them. But then right when he got he gave
them the cocaine stuff and they had sex on that.
Then at that point then he just would start talking
(32:17):
a real deep voice. I don't know if there's a
if you know what that means.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
But he would just get in the debate and he
started manipulating his hands. And one of the things that
I learned about the serial killers and stuff is that
when you're talking about when they're talking about the homicides.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
That they if they if they're going to talk about homicides,
they will motion. I mean with their hands. They'll show
how they're throttling the victim by her neck, or they'll
they'll simulate how they're striking them with a metal bar
or brick or whatever they're doing, or how they're stabbing them,
(32:56):
you know, and how they're holding the knife to them himself,
you know. And and I remember I asked one guy, uh,
you know, did you uh actually, what's the name, uh
John Kennedy?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I said, well, did you have did you have sex? Story? Again?
After she was dead and and my partner was giving
me grief.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
By later he goes he looked at me like, oh
my god, I got to take a shower, just talk
to this detective man.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
He grossed me out, thinking I'm gonna have sex with
this dead person, you know, I said. But but to
him it was no big deal. You know, you stabbed
his girl forty times and turn over to her forty
more times. They have their morals. I guess that sick detective.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
You know, i'd that laugh. I think that's not gonna
be good. I think for a second. Well, thank you
so much Mike again for another story and really giving
us good insight into the mind of the serial killer.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Well, thank you for having me, and I say these
cases I always had, always got my copies of the
case that I review, and I think about these victims,
the victims family, and how many years has gone by
and I still hear from a few of them family
members and stuff and shows like you, shows like that
(34:21):
you're putting on.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I think it is great for everybody. The's justice for people.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Absolutely, there is justice and I can't That's one of
the things we like about our cold Case podcast where
we talk about the cases have been solved because it
was a lot of clature of these families.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, wonderful stuff. Thanks again, Thanks to everyone. Make sure
to share, subscribe and hit that I like button. Truly
would appreciate
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