August 21, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode, I spoke with author Samuel Garza Bernstein about his book "Cesar Romero: The Joker Is Wild". Dynamic and debonair, Cesar Romero was best known for creating the role of the Joker in the 1960s Batman television series. As the first actor to play Batman and Robin's villainous nemesis, Romero established the character's giddy, manic tone and the distinctive laugh that subsequent actors like Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Joaquin Phoenix would use as the starting points in their own Oscar-nominated (Nicholson) and Oscar-winning (Ledger and Phoenix) performances. As a closeted gay man of Latin American descent, Romero gracefully faced many personal challenges while maintaining his suave public image and starring opposite legends ranging from Shirley Temple to Marlene Dietrich, Carmen Miranda to Frank Sinatra, and Kurt Russell to Jane Wyman.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Let's go bye, Forgotten Hollywood. We don't forget Forgotten Hollywood.
You'll remember Forgotten Hollywood where we came from. Forgotten Hollood.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Forgotten Hollywood, your podcasts and
memories of Yesterdayear my name is doug Hess. And if
you're tuning into Forgotten Hollywood for the first time, what
I do in this podcast is take you on a
journey back in time and share with you pieces of
Hollywood that you may or may not know about. And
in this episode, we have a very special guest with
us today, author Samuel Garza Bernstein, and he is here
(00:51):
to talk about his latest book, Caesar Romero The Joker
Is Wild that is published by the University of Kentucky Press.
And Samuel, welcome to you Forgot in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's a pleasure to have you on and thank you
for spending a few minutes of your busy time to
be with us and talk to our listeners today about
your books. He's a romeril, so I know what the
title says, but I always a lot wanted to hear
from the author in their words what the book is about.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Well, Obviously the book is about caes Romero, you know,
but it's really I think he had such a long
and amazing career, and so much happened before he you know,
stepped into the Batman universe, and a lot of what
(01:46):
I think is that the incredibly varied and layered performances
and jobs that he had before Batman really you can
see how they led to that iconic performance. How all
of the you know, all of the sort of tricks
(02:08):
that were up his sleeve from being in all those movies,
they all came in really really handy once he once
he joined the Batman.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
World, almost kind of like a dress rehearsal for the
main show.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
In a way. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't want
to characterize, you know, his forty years before that as
dress rehearsal. But when when it comes to having created
kind of this cultural iconic performance that really will last forever,
(02:46):
you know, Yeah, I mean I think it's it's not
wrong to say, well, it was all kind of a
build up to that explosion of talent and energy and humor,
and you know, I mean he just he just he
went all out. He left nothing on the table. There
(03:08):
was not a piece of scenery that he didn't chew up.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And I like you were built up instead of a
dress rehearsal. I think you nailed it right there in
terms of but why this book? What kind of inspired
you to write a book?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, I learned that no one had written about him before,
and you know, there's something to me about memorializing these people,
especially Caesar, who was who was gay, who was Latino,
who was all of these cultural identities that we weren't
(03:46):
really talking about during, you know, the years of his career,
and you know, the idea that his life and his
work could be forgotten, you know, the Joker will never
be forgot. But there was a lot more to him
than the Joker, and I really wanted to make sure
(04:07):
that we took the time to kind of delve into
that and say, you know, this man mattered, He really
really mattered, and it's you know, it's to all of
our delight and entertainment and benefit to explore the world
that he lived in and the world that he created.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Absolutely, and I think so many times, unfortunately, actors, actresses
get pigeonholed into a icon for lack of a better word,
And unfortunately that's where the majority of the people only
(04:53):
know Caesar as the joker, but he said he was
much more than that.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
He was much more than that. But there's no I mean,
learning about all the other aspects of him is taking
nothing away from the iconic thing. And he loved it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Burgess Meredith, who was the penguin, kind of hated it
when people came up to him and wanted him to
do the laugh, and he's like, you know, I'm a
Broadway star and I've done this and I've done Shakespeare,
and why do they have to know me for this? Right,
Caesar Mara was just tickled pink. He just thought that
it was the best thing in the world, the idea
(05:35):
that he brought joy to people who remembered him in
this way and wanted to hear that laugh. You know,
because really until the day he died, people would come
up to him and say, oh do it, would you
do the laugh? Would you do the laugh? And he
could be at the airport, he could be at the restaurant,
he could be anywhere, and he would just like okay,
(05:55):
and you know, and do it for them, like full out.
And you know, I think there's just something really kind
of adorable about that that he embraced his you know,
his fame in that way. Yes, No, I was getting
ready to say the same thing.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You kind of really embraced it, where like you said,
others kind of they want to kind of shut it
off and maybe even to some degree regret what they
did because they created this monster for lack of a
better word in terms of that. But it was it's
nice to hear when individuals actually embrace well.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And how can you, I mean, how can you not
you know, yeah, yeah, he had been famous since the
time he was, you know, a very young adult, since
his early twenties, and but he'd never been on lunch boxes.
You know, like that's a whole yeah, right, you know,
(06:56):
that's just a whole other world of like wow, and
he made it. I mean it's like I remember the
first time I did a movie and saw my name
on a on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard and that
was like so exciting to me.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And imagine that you know, a hundred times right, yes, everywhere,
and you know it's I think it was just really
really exciting.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I mean, he was in his sixties, you know, it
was like he'd done a lot and you know, and
suddenly children like considered him, you know, this superstar.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It was just so unexpected, almost unreal to agree, you know,
like you said, well, and.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You know, there's something so funny about you know, hindsight
is twenty twenty, and you know, I think what people
forget is that it isn't like a foregone conclusion that
something's going to come together the way it was. I mean,
one of the many many casting memos talked about Jose
(08:14):
Ferrer or Gig Young. There's even rumors that Frank Sinatra
wanted to play the Joker, though I'm pretty sure that's
kind of bull But you know, all of these different
ideas and that could have all happened. Yeah, they wanted
(08:34):
Suzanne Plachette to play Catwoman, which actually would have been fantastic,
But I don't think Suzanne Plachette wanted to be a Catwoman,
wanted to be a movie star. But you know, all
of these ways that projects come together are very you know,
is he busy, is she busy? Are they doing something?
(08:57):
It's all very happenstance, yes, and until it comes together
and then it becomes core, you know, like this core
reality of everyone's experience. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Absolutely. I know we've talked a lot about him as
a joker on Batman, but I want to kind of
shift years and go back to his early career because
I don't want to over overlook that as well. Maybe
just touch a little bit about his early career and
starting out in films.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well, he started out as a ballroom dancer. Was it
was an unusual situation. He grew up very wealthy and
his father was a sugar merchant and there was a
huge downturn in world sugar prices in nineteen twenty five.
(09:50):
I'm sure you know about the Great Sugar Panic of
who doesn't right, we're still talking about. So he to
go to work and that was you know, he really
if nothing had gone wrong, he would have stayed in
the sugar manufacturing business and never been a performer. But
(10:11):
he started as ballroom dancer, went to Broadway, went to Hollywood.
He started out in The Thin Man in Hollywood as
I think the seventh Bild character. Then he went on
to just do a million different He was always kind
of he could be the Latin lover, which meant that
(10:32):
he could be Cuban or Spanish or Italian or Argentinian
or any other any other ethnicity that anyone could think of.
But he could also be Indian, Pakistani, Egyptian. It was.
It was an era when if you were the other
in any way, i e. A Latino, then you could
(10:55):
be any other, you know, like you could be any
sort of any person. But what that meant is that
he got a chance to play all these different kinds
of roles and he really brought a kind of humanity
to it that I think could have gone a very
different way. You know, he played the Cisco Kid in
six movies, and he brought to it a kind of
(11:18):
sense of everyday humanity and charm that kind of transcended
the genre, kind of aspect of it, which is actually
I think what he did, you know, all those years
later with The Joker, it's transcending. Just you know, you
(11:40):
embrace the genre, but you can transcend it if you
take it seriously, if you do it for real. You know,
he was an Indian chieftain who was with Shirley Temple
and had these moments that were so human and real
that transcended the idea. I mean these were usually I
(12:03):
mean it was Wee Willie Winky, where you know, the
idea is that little Shirley Temple brings the British and
the Indians together and creates last piece for everyone involved.
Well I think maybe that's an oversimplification of British and
Indian political alliances. But he managed to make those scenes
(12:29):
seem like they really mattered, and like there was a
real gravitas and a real humanity to it. And I
just loved watching all of those movies. And when he
started out in television, he really was there at the
(12:50):
beginning and just did all kinds of roles and all
kinds of things while he had his own variety show,
while he had his own venture show, while he had
you know, all of these things going on, and you know,
he just kept working. He had a huge family to support,
(13:10):
not his he never married, it wasn't that kind of right.
His siblings and his nieces and nephews and his parents,
and you know, his house in Brentwood is on the
market for seventeen million dollars, partially because it's just so gigantic,
(13:31):
because he kept building on for all the family members
and you know, like everybody lived with him, and you know,
he he was extraordinarily gifted, I think, and He also
came from from sort of Cuban nobility in a way.
His grandfather was Jose Marti, who was considered the sort
(13:57):
of liberator of Cuba from pain in the late nineteenth century.
And you know, he didn't come to Hollywood as a nobody, right,
He came as a somebody. And I think that sense
of his own worth really really informed all of the
(14:17):
decisions that he made creatively and all of the decisions
that he made in his life and in his career.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
What was he like in his private life? What did
he like to do? I mean, because obviously he's not
working twenty four to seven. What was he like just
as a normal non movie star.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
He was very charming and funny. He did not share
his inner thoughts a lot. Yeah, I took it from.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
The book that he was a very private individual.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Very private and private with friends and family and loved ones,
you know, not just with the public. He really he
didn't look at life as you know, a series of
encounters where you fully share all of your thoughts. Instead,
he really looked at how can he make others feel seen,
(15:14):
feel noticed, feel like they're talented and funny. He loved dancing,
He loved going out. I mean, you know, he was
one of those guys that they said, oh, he'll go
to the opening of an envelope and it's not long,
like he wouldn't go anywhere. Sure he did, and you know,
(15:35):
a lot of his public he didn't get married, and
as a closeted gay celebrity, not getting married was like
kind of in and of itself, a courageous choice. And
part of that was that the public saw endless pictures
of him out on the town dancing with Joan Crawford
(15:55):
and Carol Lombard and all these beautiful, beautiful women having
the best time. So there was something really authentic about
those pictures. It wasn't like looking at tab Hunter in
a tuxedo at a nightclub with a woman on his arm,
going oh my god, I hate my life. I don't.
(16:18):
Caesar was having like the best time. So I think
that authenticity translated. But everyone that I spoke to who
is still alive, who worked with him, spoke about his
enormous kindness and his enormous affability, like he was just
(16:40):
he was never going to be the problem. You know,
when it came to like making the set work, making
people feel comfortable, making people feel noticed. He was going
to help that process. He was never going to hinder
in and he was very not demanding. Like when he's
showed up to a movie set. He showed up on
(17:02):
his own, you know, there was no retinue of assistance
and you know, like stuff like that. And yeah, I
mean he was there to work and he and he
showed up. I mean, he was in a movie called
Latitude Zero that even he was like, Okay, this was
not a great movie. He's like a mad scientist who
(17:24):
turns his mistress into a flying tiger with wings that
wants to destroy a submarine. I mean it's ridiculous. The
whole thing is ridiculous. But he shows up, you know,
he's like he's in He's a dinosaur movie. He shows up,
you know, and and I really really respect and admire that. Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Ye, Now, because he was so private, was that difficult
in the writing and the research of this book, Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It was And definitely, like looking at his relationship with
Tyrone Power, who was a very very famous actor at
the time, and looking at some of his other relationships.
You know, I'm very careful to say, well, what I
do know and what I don't know. Sure, you know
(18:19):
that he and Tyrone Power loved one another, what they
did in private physically, I have no idea I wasn't,
you know, and I'm not going to pretend that I
know for a fact, you know that this happened or
that happened. I'm also you know, this is a celebration
(18:42):
of his life, but it's a real celebration of his work.
And this is not you know, I don't attempt nor
am I that interested in, you know, like looking at
his sex life. That's not what he was leading with,
and it's not what I lead with. Really, you know,
(19:04):
it's interesting to me. There's a very famous, very scandalous
book called Full Service that this guy called Scotty Bowers wrote,
and I mean just everybody's in this book, and I
mean I think he slept with just about everybody. And
you know, there's I think some of it is a
little bit exaggerated, but just about all of it is
(19:25):
probably pretty much true. You know, it's and I mean
huge names, big, big uh. Caesar does not appear in
the book once. I've written extensively about Confidential magazine in
the fifties. Caesar did not appear once. He really did
(19:47):
keep his private life private, and you know, as such,
I kind of think, well, who am I to kind
of say I can just drag you into the bedroom?
You know, it just feels kind of gross to me.
I don't know, like if somebody really was known for
(20:07):
their sort of you know, sexual swagger or whatever. I mean,
if you're writing about Errol Flynn, I don't think it's
possible to not talk about his sex life, you know,
part of the story that was part of the story.
I don't think it's so much a part of Caesar
Romero's story. I think the gracefulness with which the grace
(20:31):
which was he was able to navigate being private but
being a public person, I think says a lot about
his you know, about his ability to be a grown
up and to behave like a grown up and show
up and do his job and and and just not
(20:56):
like get too deep in the weeds of Hollywood excess,
because you know, you can go there. It's absolutely nice
to kind of just you know, learn wild yeah, and
you know, and why not, right, you know, why not?
You know, it's I don't think there's anything wrong with
(21:21):
sewing some wild outs as it were. Sure I certainly did.
I would imagine you did too.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Part of life right, you know, whether we were in terms.
And you know, one thing that I think is really
fascinating from the Golden era, this Forgotten era that I
obviously with the podcast is I really find a couple
of things. One is a lot of the actors and
actresses tried to keep their private life private. And I
(21:49):
don't mean that as a bad thing that they were
trying to hide anything. They just didn't. They were in
the studios, were running their lives and they just wanted
to get away and be damn And I think that
was number one and number in number two. They were
very professional and you see this a lot of the
times when they were coming to the set, they knew
(22:11):
their lines, they were ready to go. It wasn't like
they were you know the stories of Marilyn Monroe that
was two hours late and didn't know our lines.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And I think that's more the exception than the rule.
And that's what I really appreciate about these actors and actresses.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well, the people that I've written about. I mean, I
had a book last year out about Joan Crawford, I've
got Caesar this year. I have a book on Roddy
McDowell coming out in June twenty twenty six. And you know,
one of the things that is true of all of
these people is they showed up, they did their job.
(22:50):
They knew they were ready, they did their job. And
I think that there's a work ethic and a life
ethic to that that appeals to me very very strongly
that I identify with, you know, And I'm not sure
that I could write about somebody that didn't have that
(23:13):
kind of work ethic because I think I would just
get very judging about that. And you know, you can't
write from a from a judgmental That just doesn't work out.
But you're absolutely right, I mean Maryland or Judy Garland
or you know his other self, you know, self destructive forces,
(23:38):
whatever their demons and whatever their difficulties in showing up
to do their job. Uh, it is absolutely true that
they were you know, geniuses, but they were also a
mess and they were very very not the norm. You know,
(24:01):
this was this was like, you know, one of his
last big jobs was opposite Jane Lyman on Falcon Crest
for two seasons, as as billionaire Greek shipping magnet Peter
jav You know, I just I love the excess of
all of that stuff. And you know, one of the
(24:22):
things that was such a was such a wonderful experience
for him, was this return to the kind of days.
You know, that was a set that ran like clockwork,
and I don't care how much. You know, they had
people like Lana Turner and you know, Kim Novak and
real Hollywood legends, but they also had a lot of
(24:43):
younger stars. People it was their first job. Everybody had
to show up and know their lines, be ready to
do what they were doing, behave professionally, behave like an adult.
And you know, I think he loved it. He loved
being in that kind of studio system environment again where
(25:04):
he could well, you knew everybody and they knew you,
and everybody respected one another and treated one another with respect.
You know. That's the thing. All the stories about old
Hollywood about misbehavior and people who you know, I mean, yes,
there were lots of people who behaved badly, but most
(25:28):
of the time, everybody showed up, did their job and
went home.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Absolutely, they may have misbehaved, but it was usually after
hours for hours.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, and even there, I don't think most people misbehaved
I think, yeah, when you know, like you're getting up
at five am, you're showing up at this head, when
are you going to misbehave? Right? You know? It's sort
of like there aren't enough hours in the day for
(26:00):
everyone to have been quite as debauched as some people
would like to imagine they were.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, no, exactly right. And these legends were working as
soon as they got done with one film. They were
going right back on Monday to start film too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
And so it's not like today.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Where you make a movie and then three years later
you make another movie and you've got all this downtime
to kind of but I digress.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
This is about Roddy McDowell, not Caesar Emera, but issued
Fox issued a press release when he was still a
little boy, trumpeting the fact that rod little Roddy McDowell,
who was I think twelve ath time, had eaten the record,
the studio record for most days worked in a row
(26:51):
one hundred and you know, six days I think it was,
I don't remember, but like one hundred and six days
without a day off. And they thought that that was
something they should, you know, publicize that. They're like, you know,
but that was that was the ethos. You know, you said, yeah,
(27:14):
I worked one hundred and six days in a row,
and you know, and Caesar did that. You know, I
think in nineteen thirty six. I'm not great with numbers,
but I think it was nineteen thirty six. But he
made seven movies, like you know, and I looked at
his shooting schedule and it was just mind boggling. He
(27:37):
was doing them at different studios, showing up and you know,
you would go back and forth, so you work on
one movie, then work on a different movie, then come
back and work on the same movie, then come back,
you know, in different eras, different periods, different hair, different
you know.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
The list goes on and on.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, but that was that was
the fun of it. Yeah, that's the excitement of it,
you know. And that was a drub. Yeah, and he
loved it. I mean, it wasn't his job, it was
his life. And really, you know, he was working until
(28:17):
he died. I mean, it was really that simple. He
went into the hospital in the end of December nineteen
ninety three, died in nineteen ninety four. Unexpectedly. They thought
he was going to be okay, and you know, and
he had done a movie not that long before he died,
(28:38):
and you know he just wanted to work. Samuel.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Unfortunately we are out of time. But I have really
enjoyed this conversation. To our listeners, I've also enjoyed your book.
Please go out and get a copy of the book,
Caesar Romero, The Joker is Wild University of Press, Kentucky,
but you can also on Amazon or wherever you purchase
your book. And Samuel, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Thank you. I should say too that on September third,
I'll be at Barnes and Noble at the Grove in
Los Angeles. On August twenty seventh, I'll be at East
End Books in Boston. I'm on August twenty ninth, I'll
be at Bradley Beach Historical Society where they're going to
have a parade in Caesar's honor. That's awesome, and their
(29:28):
dates coming up in San Francisco and New York and Provincetown.
Provincetown is on the twenty third, but at East End Books,
so you know, come see.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Me absolutely, Samuel again, thank you so much for coming on.
I really enjoyed our conversation in your book and to
our listeners, You're not going to be disappointed. Please go
ahead and get a copy of Samuel's books Caesar Romeril,
The Joker Is Wild. Samuel, thank you so much, Thank you,
thank you for listening to this episode of Forgotten in Hollywood.
You search for Doug Caster Forgotten Hollywood. You can also
(30:05):
foind me on Twitter, Instagram at hes doeg fourteen. If
you listen to this podcast and iTunes another podcast service,
please subscribe, rate and review this episode. Tune in next
time for let us episode of Forgotten Hollywood. Thank you
for listening and
Let's go bye, Forgotten Hollywood. We don't forget Forgotten Hollywood.
You'll remember Forgotten Hollywood where we came from. Forgotten Hollood.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Forgotten Hollywood, your podcasts and
memories of Yesterdayear my name is doug Hess. And if
you're tuning into Forgotten Hollywood for the first time, what
I do in this podcast is take you on a
journey back in time and share with you pieces of
Hollywood that you may or may not know about. And
in this episode, we have a very special guest with
us today, author Samuel Garza Bernstein, and he is here
(00:51):
to talk about his latest book, Caesar Romero The Joker
Is Wild that is published by the University of Kentucky Press.
And Samuel, welcome to you Forgot in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's a pleasure to have you on and thank you
for spending a few minutes of your busy time to
be with us and talk to our listeners today about
your books. He's a romeril, so I know what the
title says, but I always a lot wanted to hear
from the author in their words what the book is about.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Well, Obviously the book is about caes Romero, you know,
but it's really I think he had such a long
and amazing career, and so much happened before he you know,
stepped into the Batman universe, and a lot of what
(01:46):
I think is that the incredibly varied and layered performances
and jobs that he had before Batman really you can
see how they led to that iconic performance. How all
of the you know, all of the sort of tricks
(02:08):
that were up his sleeve from being in all those movies,
they all came in really really handy once he once
he joined the Batman.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
World, almost kind of like a dress rehearsal for the
main show.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
In a way. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't want
to characterize, you know, his forty years before that as
dress rehearsal. But when when it comes to having created
kind of this cultural iconic performance that really will last forever,
(02:46):
you know, Yeah, I mean I think it's it's not
wrong to say, well, it was all kind of a
build up to that explosion of talent and energy and humor,
and you know, I mean he just he just he
went all out. He left nothing on the table. There
(03:08):
was not a piece of scenery that he didn't chew up.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And I like you were built up instead of a
dress rehearsal. I think you nailed it right there in
terms of but why this book? What kind of inspired
you to write a book?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, I learned that no one had written about him before,
and you know, there's something to me about memorializing these people,
especially Caesar, who was who was gay, who was Latino,
who was all of these cultural identities that we weren't
(03:46):
really talking about during, you know, the years of his career,
and you know, the idea that his life and his
work could be forgotten, you know, the Joker will never
be forgot. But there was a lot more to him
than the Joker, and I really wanted to make sure
(04:07):
that we took the time to kind of delve into
that and say, you know, this man mattered, He really
really mattered, and it's you know, it's to all of
our delight and entertainment and benefit to explore the world
that he lived in and the world that he created.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Absolutely, and I think so many times, unfortunately, actors, actresses
get pigeonholed into a icon for lack of a better word,
And unfortunately that's where the majority of the people only
(04:53):
know Caesar as the joker, but he said he was
much more than that.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
He was much more than that. But there's no I mean,
learning about all the other aspects of him is taking
nothing away from the iconic thing. And he loved it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Burgess Meredith, who was the penguin, kind of hated it
when people came up to him and wanted him to
do the laugh, and he's like, you know, I'm a
Broadway star and I've done this and I've done Shakespeare,
and why do they have to know me for this? Right,
Caesar Mara was just tickled pink. He just thought that
it was the best thing in the world, the idea
(05:35):
that he brought joy to people who remembered him in
this way and wanted to hear that laugh. You know,
because really until the day he died, people would come
up to him and say, oh do it, would you
do the laugh? Would you do the laugh? And he
could be at the airport, he could be at the restaurant,
he could be anywhere, and he would just like okay,
(05:55):
and you know, and do it for them, like full out.
And you know, I think there's just something really kind
of adorable about that that he embraced his you know,
his fame in that way. Yes, No, I was getting
ready to say the same thing.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You kind of really embraced it, where like you said,
others kind of they want to kind of shut it
off and maybe even to some degree regret what they
did because they created this monster for lack of a
better word in terms of that. But it was it's
nice to hear when individuals actually embrace well.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And how can you, I mean, how can you not
you know, yeah, yeah, he had been famous since the
time he was, you know, a very young adult, since
his early twenties, and but he'd never been on lunch boxes.
You know, like that's a whole yeah, right, you know,
(06:56):
that's just a whole other world of like wow, and
he made it. I mean it's like I remember the
first time I did a movie and saw my name
on a on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard and that
was like so exciting to me.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And imagine that you know, a hundred times right, yes, everywhere,
and you know it's I think it was just really
really exciting.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I mean, he was in his sixties, you know, it
was like he'd done a lot and you know, and
suddenly children like considered him, you know, this superstar.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It was just so unexpected, almost unreal to agree, you know,
like you said, well, and.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You know, there's something so funny about you know, hindsight
is twenty twenty, and you know, I think what people
forget is that it isn't like a foregone conclusion that
something's going to come together the way it was. I mean,
one of the many many casting memos talked about Jose
(08:14):
Ferrer or Gig Young. There's even rumors that Frank Sinatra
wanted to play the Joker, though I'm pretty sure that's
kind of bull But you know, all of these different
ideas and that could have all happened. Yeah, they wanted
(08:34):
Suzanne Plachette to play Catwoman, which actually would have been fantastic,
But I don't think Suzanne Plachette wanted to be a Catwoman,
wanted to be a movie star. But you know, all
of these ways that projects come together are very you know,
is he busy, is she busy? Are they doing something?
(08:57):
It's all very happenstance, yes, and until it comes together
and then it becomes core, you know, like this core
reality of everyone's experience. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Absolutely. I know we've talked a lot about him as
a joker on Batman, but I want to kind of
shift years and go back to his early career because
I don't want to over overlook that as well. Maybe
just touch a little bit about his early career and
starting out in films.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well, he started out as a ballroom dancer. Was it
was an unusual situation. He grew up very wealthy and
his father was a sugar merchant and there was a
huge downturn in world sugar prices in nineteen twenty five.
(09:50):
I'm sure you know about the Great Sugar Panic of
who doesn't right, we're still talking about. So he to
go to work and that was you know, he really
if nothing had gone wrong, he would have stayed in
the sugar manufacturing business and never been a performer. But
(10:11):
he started as ballroom dancer, went to Broadway, went to Hollywood.
He started out in The Thin Man in Hollywood as
I think the seventh Bild character. Then he went on
to just do a million different He was always kind
of he could be the Latin lover, which meant that
(10:32):
he could be Cuban or Spanish or Italian or Argentinian
or any other any other ethnicity that anyone could think of.
But he could also be Indian, Pakistani, Egyptian. It was.
It was an era when if you were the other
in any way, i e. A Latino, then you could
(10:55):
be any other, you know, like you could be any
sort of any person. But what that meant is that
he got a chance to play all these different kinds
of roles and he really brought a kind of humanity
to it that I think could have gone a very
different way. You know, he played the Cisco Kid in
six movies, and he brought to it a kind of
(11:18):
sense of everyday humanity and charm that kind of transcended
the genre, kind of aspect of it, which is actually
I think what he did, you know, all those years
later with The Joker, it's transcending. Just you know, you
(11:40):
embrace the genre, but you can transcend it if you
take it seriously, if you do it for real. You know,
he was an Indian chieftain who was with Shirley Temple
and had these moments that were so human and real
that transcended the idea. I mean these were usually I
(12:03):
mean it was Wee Willie Winky, where you know, the
idea is that little Shirley Temple brings the British and
the Indians together and creates last piece for everyone involved.
Well I think maybe that's an oversimplification of British and
Indian political alliances. But he managed to make those scenes
(12:29):
seem like they really mattered, and like there was a
real gravitas and a real humanity to it. And I
just loved watching all of those movies. And when he
started out in television, he really was there at the
(12:50):
beginning and just did all kinds of roles and all
kinds of things while he had his own variety show,
while he had his own venture show, while he had
you know, all of these things going on, and you know,
he just kept working. He had a huge family to support,
(13:10):
not his he never married, it wasn't that kind of right.
His siblings and his nieces and nephews and his parents,
and you know, his house in Brentwood is on the
market for seventeen million dollars, partially because it's just so gigantic,
(13:31):
because he kept building on for all the family members
and you know, like everybody lived with him, and you know,
he he was extraordinarily gifted, I think, and He also
came from from sort of Cuban nobility in a way.
His grandfather was Jose Marti, who was considered the sort
(13:57):
of liberator of Cuba from pain in the late nineteenth century.
And you know, he didn't come to Hollywood as a nobody, right,
He came as a somebody. And I think that sense
of his own worth really really informed all of the
(14:17):
decisions that he made creatively and all of the decisions
that he made in his life and in his career.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
What was he like in his private life? What did
he like to do? I mean, because obviously he's not
working twenty four to seven. What was he like just
as a normal non movie star.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
He was very charming and funny. He did not share
his inner thoughts a lot. Yeah, I took it from.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
The book that he was a very private individual.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Very private and private with friends and family and loved ones,
you know, not just with the public. He really he
didn't look at life as you know, a series of
encounters where you fully share all of your thoughts. Instead,
he really looked at how can he make others feel seen,
(15:14):
feel noticed, feel like they're talented and funny. He loved dancing,
He loved going out. I mean, you know, he was
one of those guys that they said, oh, he'll go
to the opening of an envelope and it's not long,
like he wouldn't go anywhere. Sure he did, and you know,
(15:35):
a lot of his public he didn't get married, and
as a closeted gay celebrity, not getting married was like
kind of in and of itself, a courageous choice. And
part of that was that the public saw endless pictures
of him out on the town dancing with Joan Crawford
(15:55):
and Carol Lombard and all these beautiful, beautiful women having
the best time. So there was something really authentic about
those pictures. It wasn't like looking at tab Hunter in
a tuxedo at a nightclub with a woman on his arm,
going oh my god, I hate my life. I don't.
(16:18):
Caesar was having like the best time. So I think
that authenticity translated. But everyone that I spoke to who
is still alive, who worked with him, spoke about his
enormous kindness and his enormous affability, like he was just
(16:40):
he was never going to be the problem. You know,
when it came to like making the set work, making
people feel comfortable, making people feel noticed. He was going
to help that process. He was never going to hinder
in and he was very not demanding. Like when he's
showed up to a movie set. He showed up on
(17:02):
his own, you know, there was no retinue of assistance
and you know, like stuff like that. And yeah, I
mean he was there to work and he and he
showed up. I mean, he was in a movie called
Latitude Zero that even he was like, Okay, this was
not a great movie. He's like a mad scientist who
(17:24):
turns his mistress into a flying tiger with wings that
wants to destroy a submarine. I mean it's ridiculous. The
whole thing is ridiculous. But he shows up, you know,
he's like he's in He's a dinosaur movie. He shows up,
you know, and and I really really respect and admire that. Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Ye, Now, because he was so private, was that difficult
in the writing and the research of this book, Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It was And definitely, like looking at his relationship with
Tyrone Power, who was a very very famous actor at
the time, and looking at some of his other relationships.
You know, I'm very careful to say, well, what I
do know and what I don't know. Sure, you know
(18:19):
that he and Tyrone Power loved one another, what they
did in private physically, I have no idea I wasn't,
you know, and I'm not going to pretend that I
know for a fact, you know that this happened or
that happened. I'm also you know, this is a celebration
(18:42):
of his life, but it's a real celebration of his work.
And this is not you know, I don't attempt nor
am I that interested in, you know, like looking at
his sex life. That's not what he was leading with,
and it's not what I lead with. Really, you know,
(19:04):
it's interesting to me. There's a very famous, very scandalous
book called Full Service that this guy called Scotty Bowers wrote,
and I mean just everybody's in this book, and I
mean I think he slept with just about everybody. And
you know, there's I think some of it is a
little bit exaggerated, but just about all of it is
(19:25):
probably pretty much true. You know, it's and I mean
huge names, big, big uh. Caesar does not appear in
the book once. I've written extensively about Confidential magazine in
the fifties. Caesar did not appear once. He really did
(19:47):
keep his private life private, and you know, as such,
I kind of think, well, who am I to kind
of say I can just drag you into the bedroom?
You know, it just feels kind of gross to me.
I don't know, like if somebody really was known for
(20:07):
their sort of you know, sexual swagger or whatever. I mean,
if you're writing about Errol Flynn, I don't think it's
possible to not talk about his sex life, you know,
part of the story that was part of the story.
I don't think it's so much a part of Caesar
Romero's story. I think the gracefulness with which the grace
(20:31):
which was he was able to navigate being private but
being a public person, I think says a lot about
his you know, about his ability to be a grown
up and to behave like a grown up and show
up and do his job and and and just not
(20:56):
like get too deep in the weeds of Hollywood excess,
because you know, you can go there. It's absolutely nice
to kind of just you know, learn wild yeah, and
you know, and why not, right, you know, why not?
You know, it's I don't think there's anything wrong with
(21:21):
sewing some wild outs as it were. Sure I certainly did.
I would imagine you did too.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Part of life right, you know, whether we were in terms.
And you know, one thing that I think is really
fascinating from the Golden era, this Forgotten era that I
obviously with the podcast is I really find a couple
of things. One is a lot of the actors and
actresses tried to keep their private life private. And I
(21:49):
don't mean that as a bad thing that they were
trying to hide anything. They just didn't. They were in
the studios, were running their lives and they just wanted
to get away and be damn And I think that
was number one and number in number two. They were
very professional and you see this a lot of the
times when they were coming to the set, they knew
(22:11):
their lines, they were ready to go. It wasn't like
they were you know the stories of Marilyn Monroe that
was two hours late and didn't know our lines.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And I think that's more the exception than the rule.
And that's what I really appreciate about these actors and actresses.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well, the people that I've written about. I mean, I
had a book last year out about Joan Crawford, I've
got Caesar this year. I have a book on Roddy
McDowell coming out in June twenty twenty six. And you know,
one of the things that is true of all of
these people is they showed up, they did their job.
(22:50):
They knew they were ready, they did their job. And
I think that there's a work ethic and a life
ethic to that that appeals to me very very strongly
that I identify with, you know, And I'm not sure
that I could write about somebody that didn't have that
(23:13):
kind of work ethic because I think I would just
get very judging about that. And you know, you can't
write from a from a judgmental That just doesn't work out.
But you're absolutely right, I mean Maryland or Judy Garland
or you know his other self, you know, self destructive forces,
(23:38):
whatever their demons and whatever their difficulties in showing up
to do their job. Uh, it is absolutely true that
they were you know, geniuses, but they were also a
mess and they were very very not the norm. You know,
(24:01):
this was this was like, you know, one of his
last big jobs was opposite Jane Lyman on Falcon Crest
for two seasons, as as billionaire Greek shipping magnet Peter
jav You know, I just I love the excess of
all of that stuff. And you know, one of the
(24:22):
things that was such a was such a wonderful experience
for him, was this return to the kind of days.
You know, that was a set that ran like clockwork,
and I don't care how much. You know, they had
people like Lana Turner and you know, Kim Novak and
real Hollywood legends, but they also had a lot of
(24:43):
younger stars. People it was their first job. Everybody had
to show up and know their lines, be ready to
do what they were doing, behave professionally, behave like an adult.
And you know, I think he loved it. He loved
being in that kind of studio system environment again where
(25:04):
he could well, you knew everybody and they knew you,
and everybody respected one another and treated one another with respect.
You know. That's the thing. All the stories about old
Hollywood about misbehavior and people who you know, I mean, yes,
there were lots of people who behaved badly, but most
(25:28):
of the time, everybody showed up, did their job and
went home.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Absolutely, they may have misbehaved, but it was usually after
hours for hours.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, and even there, I don't think most people misbehaved
I think, yeah, when you know, like you're getting up
at five am, you're showing up at this head, when
are you going to misbehave? Right? You know? It's sort
of like there aren't enough hours in the day for
(26:00):
everyone to have been quite as debauched as some people
would like to imagine they were.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, no, exactly right. And these legends were working as
soon as they got done with one film. They were
going right back on Monday to start film too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
And so it's not like today.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Where you make a movie and then three years later
you make another movie and you've got all this downtime
to kind of but I digress.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
This is about Roddy McDowell, not Caesar Emera, but issued
Fox issued a press release when he was still a
little boy, trumpeting the fact that rod little Roddy McDowell,
who was I think twelve ath time, had eaten the record,
the studio record for most days worked in a row
(26:51):
one hundred and you know, six days I think it was,
I don't remember, but like one hundred and six days
without a day off. And they thought that that was
something they should, you know, publicize that. They're like, you know,
but that was that was the ethos. You know, you said, yeah,
(27:14):
I worked one hundred and six days in a row,
and you know, and Caesar did that. You know, I
think in nineteen thirty six. I'm not great with numbers,
but I think it was nineteen thirty six. But he
made seven movies, like you know, and I looked at
his shooting schedule and it was just mind boggling. He
(27:37):
was doing them at different studios, showing up and you know,
you would go back and forth, so you work on
one movie, then work on a different movie, then come
back and work on the same movie, then come back,
you know, in different eras, different periods, different hair, different
you know.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
The list goes on and on.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, but that was that was
the fun of it. Yeah, that's the excitement of it,
you know. And that was a drub. Yeah, and he
loved it. I mean, it wasn't his job, it was
his life. And really, you know, he was working until
(28:17):
he died. I mean, it was really that simple. He
went into the hospital in the end of December nineteen
ninety three, died in nineteen ninety four. Unexpectedly. They thought
he was going to be okay, and you know, and
he had done a movie not that long before he died,
(28:38):
and you know he just wanted to work. Samuel.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Unfortunately we are out of time. But I have really
enjoyed this conversation. To our listeners, I've also enjoyed your book.
Please go out and get a copy of the book,
Caesar Romero, The Joker is Wild University of Press, Kentucky,
but you can also on Amazon or wherever you purchase
your book. And Samuel, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Thank you. I should say too that on September third,
I'll be at Barnes and Noble at the Grove in
Los Angeles. On August twenty seventh, I'll be at East
End Books in Boston. I'm on August twenty ninth, I'll
be at Bradley Beach Historical Society where they're going to
have a parade in Caesar's honor. That's awesome, and their
(29:28):
dates coming up in San Francisco and New York and Provincetown.
Provincetown is on the twenty third, but at East End Books,
so you know, come see.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Me absolutely, Samuel again, thank you so much for coming on.
I really enjoyed our conversation in your book and to
our listeners, You're not going to be disappointed. Please go
ahead and get a copy of Samuel's books Caesar Romeril,
The Joker Is Wild. Samuel, thank you so much, Thank you,
thank you for listening to this episode of Forgotten in Hollywood.
You search for Doug Caster Forgotten Hollywood. You can also
(30:05):
foind me on Twitter, Instagram at hes doeg fourteen. If
you listen to this podcast and iTunes another podcast service,
please subscribe, rate and review this episode. Tune in next
time for let us episode of Forgotten Hollywood. Thank you
for listening and
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