August 25, 2025 • 28 mins
Forgotten Hollywood is on Facebook.
Forgotten Hollywood Books are on Amazon.
In this episode I spoke with author Sheri Chinen Biesen about her book "Through a Noir Lens: Adapting Film Noir Visual Style".
Shadows. Smoke. Dark alleys. Rain-slicked city streets. These are iconic elements of film noir visual style. Long after its 1940s heyday, noir hallmarks continue to appear in a variety of new media forms and styles. What has made the noir aesthetic at once enduring and adaptable?
Forgotten Hollywood Books are on Amazon.
In this episode I spoke with author Sheri Chinen Biesen about her book "Through a Noir Lens: Adapting Film Noir Visual Style".
Shadows. Smoke. Dark alleys. Rain-slicked city streets. These are iconic elements of film noir visual style. Long after its 1940s heyday, noir hallmarks continue to appear in a variety of new media forms and styles. What has made the noir aesthetic at once enduring and adaptable?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Let's go bye, Forgotten Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We don't forget.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Forgotten Hollywood. You'll remember Forgotten Hollywood where we came from,
Forgotten hollod.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Forgotten Hollywood, your podcasts and
memories of yesteryear. My name is Doug Hanson. If you're
tuning in Forgotten Hollywood for the first time, what I
do on this podcast is take you on a journey
back in time and share with you pieces of Hollywood
that you may or may not know about. And in
this episode, we have a very special guest with us
today and it is author Sherry Jinane Benson. I've start
(00:58):
I apology guys for that, but she is here to
talk about her book through a no orlens, adapting film
noir visual style. Sherry, first of all, welcome to Forgotten Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Oh, thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, thank you for spending just a few minutes out
of your busy day to be with us and to
talk about your book through a new lens. And one
of the things that I like to ask all of
our especially our authors when they come on, is to
put it in kind of their own words, what this
book is about, or what their book is about.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Sure well. This book through a no or Lens, adapting
film nor visual Style is a passion project that I've
had for years. It's actually a follow up project. It's
a sequel to my very first book, which is Blackout
World War Two in the Origins of Film Noir, and
this film picks up. It's a film history book focusing
(01:52):
on the the industrial, historical, technological development development of the
style of film noir from the classic nineteen forties, you know,
from the end of World War Two through the more
contemporary through the decades, and you know it's influenced in
(02:13):
later sort of incarnations of the classic more style. So
it deals with the classic noir film noir for film fans,
the film noir style of the nineteen forties and fifties,
how it changes, how it dissipates, how it's sort of
reimagined in later forms, both in color and later neo
noir films in post classical Hollywood, as well as taking
(02:35):
us through the streaming era, and how the classic film
noir style sort of is reimagined and rearticulated in different
ways in the digital streaming era, all the way through
the COVID through our COVID nineteen the last decade here,
so it's been. It was a big project, but it
was a lot of fun to write.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I really enjoyed it absolutely. In a way, is it
surprising that here we are in twenty twenty five and
we're really still talking about the way that it's the style,
that this visual style has been adopted and basically carried
on through Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yes, absolutely, I mean originally I was really I'm a
film historian and I do a lot of archival research
at Motion Picture Archives. I was originally when I was
a student years and years ago. I was really surprised.
I was researching film more and I do a lot
of working censorship as well, and I was stumbled on
(03:32):
some actual memos from the filmmakers during the time, and
they were talking about how during World War Two there
were the blackouts and rationally of lighting and you couldn't
use a lot of light. And I was thinking, you know,
my question was, you know, I was curious why and
how this film more so dark, with these brooding shadows
that are really are iconic of film, wore right of
(03:54):
these crime movies, and you know, the memos were talking
about how you couldn't use a lot of light when
they were actually filming during World War Two, and I
was really fascinated by that. And so what's fascinating is
how the production circumstances of these films changed right at
the end of the war and then throughout the later decades,
(04:14):
right later in the forties, in the fifties, and then
into the post classical era, right with the New Hollywood,
and into the streaming era, and even through COVID nineteen
with later more recent productions. And so I was really
fascinated by that, and I decided to look at how
the lighting and the cinematography, and you know, how they
were shooting things, whether they're on location or where they
(04:36):
were on enclosed sound stages and sets and so forth,
and how that affected what we see on the screen,
on the big screen and now on our streaming devices.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, sometimes it still gets a little uh uh. You
have to get used to say in the word streaming
in here with that's right, the way things it is
changing it. So is it fair to say that some
of this lighting in the style and I'm going to
use this word and you can change it, but maybe
(05:12):
by accident the way it was, it wasn't meant to
be so dark. But because of some protocol, because of
the war, that it really developed into its own style
by accident. And again I use that word loosely because
I'm had lots of words to something better.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Well, I think that you know, you had with World
War two going on overseas, had a lot of the
really talented European expressionist emmigrats in Hollywood during that time,
and you had dark thematic.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Crimes and murderers and things like this, right yours and
your thethetasim, your detectives and so forth, and so you
had thematically dark things. But I think that the production
circumstances during the war really accentuated that may not be
I don't know, if accidentally, but by necessity, by necessity, right,
(06:06):
whether it was Hitchcock or Orson Wells, or whether it
was you know, Howard Hawks or Billy Wilder, Right, they
were dealing with these real production circumstances, and it was
this really harsh, you know climate during the war. There
was a lot of fear that people were dying, right,
There was there was even poia. I mean, Los Angeles
was designated the theater of war. They thought that, you know,
(06:29):
there were going to be bombings in La and so
there were there were all I found this. I found
the circumstances really fascinating. And you see the legacy of that,
you know, not just during by the end of the door,
but but into the post war period. And and they
often had to shoot a lot of productions indoors because
they were you know, sort of their production restrictions for
(06:51):
national security reasons. Right, you couldn't show the coastline or
the real life. They were rationing things like rubber and
set materials and lighting and electricity. So it was really wild.
I thought, wow, this is crazy, you know, this production climate.
And so you know, this is where you get these
fabulous films like Double Indemnity, right, this is where you
get you know, the Big Sleep or the preview version.
(07:13):
They've remade it to the forty six version, right, And
was this really just fascinating, you know, fabulous zeitdeist if
you will, for film noir. And it really sort of bursts,
you know, out of that. And and I was also
really fascinated about how even in the US, before French
critics in Paris in nineteen forty six, after the war,
(07:35):
after the market's reopen overseas, you know, even in the
US and the US trade discourse and the Hollywood trades.
You start to see them talking about these films. They
weren't called film noir yet, right, but they talked about
these films, right. And so you also see the trends
towards documentary filmmaking, trends that growing out of the war, right.
(07:59):
And you had you know, filmmakers talking about you know,
the influence on motion picture cinematography and so forth, right,
And so they had trends called newsreel style during the war.
You know, Billy Walder talks about he and cinematographer John SATs,
you know, invoking newsreel style to get that beautiful cinematography
(08:20):
and double indemnity for example, in ninety forty four. And
you have that, you have the cinematic style changing and
evolving right after the war. You have a semi documentary
style and people shooting on location in broad daylight with
more sunlight, and that changes the look and feel of
film war style. So you have classic films wars like say,
(08:45):
Out of the Past, right, and it opens and it's
out in the country. It's not the dark urban jungle
at night. Right, You're out in the country in the
broad day and you're like, wow, what's this and then
it's it sort of goes back and forth between this wonderful, brooding,
dark visual style and uh, you know, whether it's night
time or enclosed interiors. Right, they would do that, you know,
(09:05):
during the wartime production because of the air raid drills
and because of all the shooting limitations. Right, So once
things opened up, it changes the look and feel of
film noir. So I was really fascinated by that. And
then of course the look of the gorgeous classic Hollywood
nitrate film stock that was used you know in the
(09:27):
you know, twenties, thirties, forties, and then that that changes
to the safety stock, the acetate, the less flammable and
less explosive stock that they used in the fifties and onward.
But of course you know that had a different look too, right,
And so you have you know, these dark chiatos, bureau
(09:48):
expressionistic black black, and you know visuals the film noir
in the forties changing to sort of shades of gray
in the fifties, and you also have noir shifting to colors.
The industry starts invoking color once, you know, once they
start using single strip sort of the Eastmancoda film stock,
and they would develop it in a teenchnic color rather
(10:08):
than the gorgeous three strip expensive restrip technicolor that they
used earlier. Right, So so they you know, so you'd
start to see film the mair in color, and you
start to see it influencing in the post war these
different genres. You'd get like more musicals, right, like a
Star is Born, right, and you'd get your West Side
story right later, and you'd get and you'd get people,
(10:29):
you know, fascinating, fabulous, talented, our tour directors like Alfred Hitchcock,
you know, not only making you know, things like a
spell Bound and notorious you know, at the end of
World War two, black and white, but also in the
fifties you'd get him directing Rear Window and north By
Northwest these films and gorgeous you know, color invoking sort
(10:52):
of color and war style, particularly Rear Window. So it's
really interesting and and I have to honor hitch it
since birthday, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Recording on his birthday, and we wouldn't be doing him justice.
We didn't give at list a shout out.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
That's right, that's right, and.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Mentioned a couple of his films and he was. He's
a great example of doing both black and white and
color kind of not kind of being very successful in
both and being able to adapt.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, and you know, and he was making films.
He was making films in Germany in the silent there,
you know, German expressionism, right, and so you know, and
then he's making films in Great Britain, you know. And
and so he was, you know, right from the silent era.
So he understood. And he was a designer, right, so
he understood you know, you know, he would storyboard all
(11:47):
the shots, right, he understood that it was told visually. Right.
Of course you sound wonderfully as well, you know, with
composers such as you know, Bernard Herman and Franz Walks
Waksman and so forth. But yeah, the visual you know,
and that's so important in film war.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But yeah, yeah, absolutely, in the way that they could
use picture or the lack or darkness to really illustrate
a point and really get you kind of scared or
nervous or whatever the mood would allow you to take.
(12:25):
Compared to today where we have all these great special effects,
and they were basically doing it with the camera for
lack of.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
A yeah, yeah, Falegy and it's amazing and Rore window, right,
because that's a huge set to sort of be the
look of shooting on location in Grant's village in New
York City, right, So that you know, and and it's
amazing what they did, you know with that. And they
had you know, they had the lighting was so you know, sophisticated,
(12:56):
and they had you know, they had it set ups
to show you sort of you know magic account or
a dusk or you know, or or later at night,
you know, they got rain showers. They have the sort
of you know, the neon sign and the dark alleys, right,
and so yeah, so it was really really wonderful what
they did with that film, you know, and.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Really it's hard to believe, you know, at first at
first glance that that was all done on a stage, yeah,
stage and not really shot in on location for like
again like.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Better word, well, what's amazing in both the classic film
war you know, the forties and something like r Windows say,
is I mean directors like Hitchcock or you know, Billy
Wilder or Howard Hawks or whoever whoever you know, they
could they could control you know, the look, the style
of lighting the shadows, the color, you can control every
(13:51):
aspect of production when it was shot on a sound stage,
and so you know, that would really enhance the look
could feel of the film, the wir style and black
and white or what I call color noir and films
like We're Window, right, and later later you get neo
noir films, whether it's things like you know, Laic Confidential
or or you know, a whole slew of you know,
(14:15):
very very famous films. I even consider, you know, the
Godfather movies shot by the great Gordon Willis. I consider
Godfather one and two though those are those are new
Millar movies, new for new right, so new, a new
articulation of film noir. And and those those films were
some of the last films shot with the Technicolor labs
(14:36):
before they closed the Technicolor lab down in the US,
and so that really enhanced the look and feel in
the visual style of these films beautifully shot by Gordon Willis,
you know, with director Francis for Koppel of course, and
so really really amazing, amazing films, and even overseas you see,
you know, the legacy and the influence of one of
(14:57):
the great films that I love. That's the sort of
Frank American French American co production. Is bertrand Trevanni's around
Midnight from nineteen eighty six and they I remember they
premiered that in my class when I was a film
student at USC in the Cinema School, and you know,
they he came and he talked about you know, all
the jazz musicians like Dexter Gordon, you know, coming and
(15:20):
filming with that, and how you know Scorsese, Mark Scorcees
is in the film. He's such an influential figure in
the in the you know, Neil nol R, right, yeah,
And and so they're shooting in Paris, and they're shooting,
you know, in New York, and they're shooting on a
sound stage outside of Paris, and he's invoking you know,
nineteen nineteen fifty nine Blue Note Jazz Club in the
(15:41):
fifties and Paris and dun gorgeous, just absolutely gorgeous New
North style. And so you know, films like that really,
you know, really resonate, right, They're really memorable.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Absolutely absolutely sure. I know we're getting close on time.
But one more question I have for you is did
anything surprise you during the research and the writing of
this book.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm often surprised by what I find, you know,
in writing these things. I mean originally, you know, when
when I was doing work on noir and censorship, I
was surprised to find these membos right saying, you know, hey,
you have these restrictions on the amount of light you
can use. They have blackouts, and they're you know, I
(16:26):
was surprised, you know, I was surprised to find that,
and that was that's sort of spurred you know, all
my book, my books and my graduate work and so forth,
and so I was really surprised by that. And I
was also surprised by when I was doing this book,
how things like television and the industry converting to television
(16:46):
by the fifties, late forties, fifties, and how because of
the technological limitations on early television in late forties and fifties,
you couldn't do it basically kind of killed more style
in motion of pictures because they wanted to shoot films
so you could shoot show them on television, and so
you could, but the shadows and the great montages and
(17:08):
the art shots, all the things in a high contrast,
keep focus, and all of that you know, on this
small screen sort of fuzzy low res TV right, it
wouldn't show up, and so that really mitigated against film Norris.
It sort of killed this sort of stipe you will,
the style, but it sort of re emerges in different
ways in the fifties and in color and then in
(17:29):
the neo noir in the streaming era. So it is
really surprised by how influence, how much influence the technological
developments and adapting to that would affect the evolving film
war style that we see. And also when you get
to when you get to you know, fabulous later films
like Alex Proyce's nineteen ninety eight Dark City, which is
(17:52):
shot on film, but you have this sort of burgeoning
digital effects starting to really affect the look and fields gorgeous.
It's a gorgeous sort of futuristic sci fi noir like
Bladed Runner, but it's visually it does this gorgeous homage
to forties and noir basically throughout it, and it's it's
fabulous to look at. And by the time you get
(18:12):
to the streaming era, in the digital era, I found
it really fascinating. How you know, streamers like Netflix, they
would they would do homages to Noir. They would they
would require, you know, technical specs so that you know,
filmmakers are shooting things in four K or above, right,
they would do things to really emulate the cinematic look
(18:32):
or even emphasize the North style and the sort of
visual high res, visual resolution that you see in our films.
And so I was really struck by that. And you'd
see how that plays out and how you get you know,
whether you're watching the Irish Men write on Netflix some
of the long form productions, right, I mean, originally when
you had the Daredevil and Jessica Jones show on Netflix,
(18:53):
they're darker than when they rebooted them over you know
on Disney. Right, they were pro co productions, and later
on they sort of moved or things like Ozark, you know,
or Babelo Berlin and these things like this, right, So
those are really really you know, fascinating works. So I
was surprised by the sort of synergy between the technology
(19:14):
and the evolution and adaptability and endurability of the North
style even through the digital streaming era. So that was
really fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Excellently. Well, before I want to go, I do have
one more. Since this is called Forgotten Hollywood, I have
a couple of suggestions of forgotten films that you would
recommend for our listeners to check out.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean rare, rare films. Yes, absolutely, there's a fabulous,
fabulous post war film that for a while was not
available but is now on Blu ray. It's hard to find.
It's Fred Zinnemann's nineteen forty eight film. In some areas,
it was released in forty nine, and it's called Active Violence,
(20:01):
and it's fabulous, fabulous, fabulous film with they shot it
on location on the streets of Los Angeles at night
and they man, he's got Van Heflin and Robert Ryan
and and a very young Janet l before she changes
her hair and everything. But it's a really great film.
They have films like that that are rare. I mean,
I talk about so many different films in this book,
(20:24):
but yeah, I do a lot of coverage and Active
Violence because it's such a great film and it's it's
really it's this underrated, underrecognized gem of a nor film.
And there are other, you know, more famous, you know,
examples rare things. I think that in the New and
Ore era, I think films like Dark City are amazing.
I of course talked about the Coen Brothers and things
(20:45):
like Lebowski and and and and Barton Fink, which are great.
Uh and uh. You know, there's a lot of really
interesting string productions as well. There's a lot of I mean,
if if folks have not this is these are very
well known films. But but if film buffs out there
are new to discovering film noir. If you have not
seen Double Ademnity and The Big Sleep and Out of
(21:07):
the Past, please do so. You know, if you haven't
seen you know, Hitchcock's notorious and Red Window in north
By Northwest, please do so. If you have not seen
Orson Wells's you know, a Lady from Shanghai, particularly the
mirror sequence. I mean that's just you know, just knocks
you out right. It's so good. Yeah, And I and
(21:29):
I and I am partial to the forties. I must
say that nitrate, you know, classic era, that's my favorite,
you know. And but you have rare films in the
fifties that people may not know about. You have films
like independent productions like The Thief, which doesn't even have
any dialogue in it. It just has this gorgeous location photography.
It's sort of you know, conjuring up the Cold War,
(21:52):
you know, shot on location, you know, in New York
City and Washington, d C. And it has a spectacular
finale on top of the Empires State Building with this
gorgeous skyline of New York in the fifties, and so,
you know, really amazing. If folks are into sort of seeing,
you know, I mean, you have more Westerns and more
musicals and more sci fi and things. But if you
(22:16):
I you know, I've written much about more musicals because
it's such a bizarre sort of amalgam right of certain
war together, and I talk about I do a lot
of writing on the George kuker Is nineteen fifty four,
A Star Is Born with Judy Garland and James Mason.
That's a fabulous film, as well as you know, Robert
(22:39):
Wise's West Side Story from nineteen sixty one. I'm on
this picture. And these are bigger productions, obviously much bigger budgeted.
But if you have you know, young film history buffs
who maybe haven't seen some of the really famous productions,
it's you know, the next time you watch it. When
I was in film school, it was the first time
I saw West Side Story, just done work research on
(23:01):
A Star Is Born, and I was seeing West Side
Story for the first time on the big screen. And
when I was growing up, i'd seen just on the
small screen TV sometimes the black and white, even in
croft pandin scan right. And so I had just turned
in my My Star's Born paper and I was and
everybody was going to go home and go to bed.
But I came in late and I said, Oh, they're
(23:22):
screening West Side Story in a gorgeous thirty five millimeter
archive print. And I said, I'll just go in to watch.
And they were in the rumble and they were doing
the Rumble number and it was so good. It was
just like transformative. I saw it was like, oh my god,
this is it's a normal musical. Oh my god. You know,
and you have a sort of color noir aesthetic in
(23:43):
these color nor style and in normal musicals like that.
And whether it's Red Window or whether it's A Star
Is Born or whether it's West Side Story, you've got
you've got these color shades and muted tones emulating the
look and feel a black and white film, right, whether
it's some grays or browns or beiges and black and white,
navy blue. But then if you have a dominant color,
(24:06):
you have these streaks of sort of scarlet red, right,
whether it's the brick and the neon in the window,
or whether it's you know, something Judy Garland's wearing and
it starts born right, or whether it's you know, all
those red lights and the sirens flashing and everything in
the West Head Story and they're that rumble number and
it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So yeah, passion for cinema, you know, I encourage passion
for cinema. Lover for the forgotten film history and the
classic nor films and their incarnations and contemporary cinema and streaming.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know, I have to agree with you on a
couple of things. One is I love the forties as well.
I think that's just a very awesome time, a lot
of films in there to watch. And then the other
thing that you had said and I completely agree with,
is getting these younger students slash generation to look and
(25:02):
watch some of these classic or older films and they
don't be classic, but I have found that if you've
you picked the right film, that's that will actually go
a long way with students being captivated and say, oh,
I don't want to watch a black and white that's
old or or forgotten or sane. Yeah, find that that
(25:26):
right film. You can actually capture them and you'll be
amazed at what they they start to get it.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Absolutely and watching something like Stig, whether it's Billy Wilder, right, yeah,
the Bolevard or Double Indemnity, right, I mean, yeah, you
know it's so good and you know a huge cop,
you know, notorious you know, uh, you know rear Window
north By Northwest when he's hanging off the cliff, right, it's.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Like absolutely yeah, And it's just amazing to watch their
eyes in them getting involved, because I think a lot
of times we don't give that younger generation credit, like, oh,
they're not going to get it. They're not going to
enjoy it, they're not going to love it. They just
need to be exposed to it. And yeah, a big,
big believer exposing them to the right films will develop
(26:16):
a love.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean that's what it was for me.
And so you know, that's why I decided to pursue,
you know, becoming a film historian and teaching film history
and film noir because you know, when I was a student,
I was seeing these films for the first time, you know,
I was. I was finally seeing Casablanca and Comfortable and
so forth. Right, I didn't know who Kerry was, and
(26:40):
now you know, and you know, you discover this passion
for cinema. You see Rita Hayworth and Guilda right all right, yeah, yeah,
and it completely changes the way that you that you
look and see and watch and and engage with, you know,
whether it's cinema, whether it's contemporary digital streaming media and
(27:03):
new media online, right, it completely changes even if you watch,
even if you watch commercials or any other media form,
you can tell if something has you know, someone has
been exposed to lots of things. And you know, we
have students who often are learning, you know, they're taking
production classes, they're learning filmmaking for themselves to make their
(27:24):
own new productions. And if they're being exposed to things,
that just sort of helps, you know, synergize and cultivate
all these sort of creative judices for them to draw
on when they're doing their own films and making their
own productions. So it's really inspiring, right, absolutely, We'll share it.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
We're out of time. Unfortuately, but I want to thank
you so much for coming on and to our listeners,
please go out and get a cop of through It
nor Lens adapting the film no Oir Visual Style, Columbia
University Press. You can find it on Amazon or wherever
you find your books. And again, Sherry, thank you so
(28:03):
much for coming on and spending a few minutes of
your day with us.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Thank you so much, my pleasure, well.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Thank you, and thank you for listening to this episode
of Forgotten Hollywood. Your search for doug Hester Forgotten Hollywood.
You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram at hestog fourteen.
If you listen to this podcast and iTunes another podcast service,
please subscribe, rate and review this episode. Tune in next
time for the late US episode of Forgotten Hollywood. Thank
you for listening and we will see you then
Let's go bye, Forgotten Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We don't forget.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Forgotten Hollywood. You'll remember Forgotten Hollywood where we came from,
Forgotten hollod.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Forgotten Hollywood, your podcasts and
memories of yesteryear. My name is Doug Hanson. If you're
tuning in Forgotten Hollywood for the first time, what I
do on this podcast is take you on a journey
back in time and share with you pieces of Hollywood
that you may or may not know about. And in
this episode, we have a very special guest with us
today and it is author Sherry Jinane Benson. I've start
(00:58):
I apology guys for that, but she is here to
talk about her book through a no orlens, adapting film
noir visual style. Sherry, first of all, welcome to Forgotten Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Oh, thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, thank you for spending just a few minutes out
of your busy day to be with us and to
talk about your book through a new lens. And one
of the things that I like to ask all of
our especially our authors when they come on, is to
put it in kind of their own words, what this
book is about, or what their book is about.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Sure well. This book through a no or Lens, adapting
film nor visual Style is a passion project that I've
had for years. It's actually a follow up project. It's
a sequel to my very first book, which is Blackout
World War Two in the Origins of Film Noir, and
this film picks up. It's a film history book focusing
(01:52):
on the the industrial, historical, technological development development of the
style of film noir from the classic nineteen forties, you know,
from the end of World War Two through the more
contemporary through the decades, and you know it's influenced in
(02:13):
later sort of incarnations of the classic more style. So
it deals with the classic noir film noir for film fans,
the film noir style of the nineteen forties and fifties,
how it changes, how it dissipates, how it's sort of
reimagined in later forms, both in color and later neo
noir films in post classical Hollywood, as well as taking
(02:35):
us through the streaming era, and how the classic film
noir style sort of is reimagined and rearticulated in different
ways in the digital streaming era, all the way through
the COVID through our COVID nineteen the last decade here,
so it's been. It was a big project, but it
was a lot of fun to write.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I really enjoyed it absolutely. In a way, is it
surprising that here we are in twenty twenty five and
we're really still talking about the way that it's the style,
that this visual style has been adopted and basically carried
on through Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yes, absolutely, I mean originally I was really I'm a
film historian and I do a lot of archival research
at Motion Picture Archives. I was originally when I was
a student years and years ago. I was really surprised.
I was researching film more and I do a lot
of working censorship as well, and I was stumbled on
(03:32):
some actual memos from the filmmakers during the time, and
they were talking about how during World War Two there
were the blackouts and rationally of lighting and you couldn't
use a lot of light. And I was thinking, you know,
my question was, you know, I was curious why and
how this film more so dark, with these brooding shadows
that are really are iconic of film, wore right of
(03:54):
these crime movies, and you know, the memos were talking
about how you couldn't use a lot of light when
they were actually filming during World War Two, and I
was really fascinated by that. And so what's fascinating is
how the production circumstances of these films changed right at
the end of the war and then throughout the later decades,
(04:14):
right later in the forties, in the fifties, and then
into the post classical era, right with the New Hollywood,
and into the streaming era, and even through COVID nineteen
with later more recent productions. And so I was really
fascinated by that, and I decided to look at how
the lighting and the cinematography, and you know, how they
were shooting things, whether they're on location or where they
(04:36):
were on enclosed sound stages and sets and so forth,
and how that affected what we see on the screen,
on the big screen and now on our streaming devices.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, sometimes it still gets a little uh uh. You
have to get used to say in the word streaming
in here with that's right, the way things it is
changing it. So is it fair to say that some
of this lighting in the style and I'm going to
use this word and you can change it, but maybe
(05:12):
by accident the way it was, it wasn't meant to
be so dark. But because of some protocol, because of
the war, that it really developed into its own style
by accident. And again I use that word loosely because
I'm had lots of words to something better.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Well, I think that you know, you had with World
War two going on overseas, had a lot of the
really talented European expressionist emmigrats in Hollywood during that time,
and you had dark thematic.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Crimes and murderers and things like this, right yours and
your thethetasim, your detectives and so forth, and so you
had thematically dark things. But I think that the production
circumstances during the war really accentuated that may not be
I don't know, if accidentally, but by necessity, by necessity, right,
(06:06):
whether it was Hitchcock or Orson Wells, or whether it
was you know, Howard Hawks or Billy Wilder, Right, they
were dealing with these real production circumstances, and it was
this really harsh, you know climate during the war. There
was a lot of fear that people were dying, right,
There was there was even poia. I mean, Los Angeles
was designated the theater of war. They thought that, you know,
(06:29):
there were going to be bombings in La and so
there were there were all I found this. I found
the circumstances really fascinating. And you see the legacy of that,
you know, not just during by the end of the door,
but but into the post war period. And and they
often had to shoot a lot of productions indoors because
they were you know, sort of their production restrictions for
(06:51):
national security reasons. Right, you couldn't show the coastline or
the real life. They were rationing things like rubber and
set materials and lighting and electricity. So it was really wild.
I thought, wow, this is crazy, you know, this production climate.
And so you know, this is where you get these
fabulous films like Double Indemnity, right, this is where you
get you know, the Big Sleep or the preview version.
(07:13):
They've remade it to the forty six version, right, And
was this really just fascinating, you know, fabulous zeitdeist if
you will, for film noir. And it really sort of bursts,
you know, out of that. And and I was also
really fascinated about how even in the US, before French
critics in Paris in nineteen forty six, after the war,
(07:35):
after the market's reopen overseas, you know, even in the
US and the US trade discourse and the Hollywood trades.
You start to see them talking about these films. They
weren't called film noir yet, right, but they talked about
these films, right. And so you also see the trends
towards documentary filmmaking, trends that growing out of the war, right.
(07:59):
And you had you know, filmmakers talking about you know,
the influence on motion picture cinematography and so forth, right,
And so they had trends called newsreel style during the war.
You know, Billy Walder talks about he and cinematographer John SATs,
you know, invoking newsreel style to get that beautiful cinematography
(08:20):
and double indemnity for example, in ninety forty four. And
you have that, you have the cinematic style changing and
evolving right after the war. You have a semi documentary
style and people shooting on location in broad daylight with
more sunlight, and that changes the look and feel of
film war style. So you have classic films wars like say,
(08:45):
Out of the Past, right, and it opens and it's
out in the country. It's not the dark urban jungle
at night. Right, You're out in the country in the
broad day and you're like, wow, what's this and then
it's it sort of goes back and forth between this wonderful, brooding,
dark visual style and uh, you know, whether it's night
time or enclosed interiors. Right, they would do that, you know,
(09:05):
during the wartime production because of the air raid drills
and because of all the shooting limitations. Right, So once
things opened up, it changes the look and feel of
film noir. So I was really fascinated by that. And
then of course the look of the gorgeous classic Hollywood
nitrate film stock that was used you know in the
(09:27):
you know, twenties, thirties, forties, and then that that changes
to the safety stock, the acetate, the less flammable and
less explosive stock that they used in the fifties and onward.
But of course you know that had a different look too, right,
And so you have you know, these dark chiatos, bureau
(09:48):
expressionistic black black, and you know visuals the film noir
in the forties changing to sort of shades of gray
in the fifties, and you also have noir shifting to colors.
The industry starts invoking color once, you know, once they
start using single strip sort of the Eastmancoda film stock,
and they would develop it in a teenchnic color rather
(10:08):
than the gorgeous three strip expensive restrip technicolor that they
used earlier. Right, So so they you know, so you'd
start to see film the mair in color, and you
start to see it influencing in the post war these
different genres. You'd get like more musicals, right, like a
Star is Born, right, and you'd get your West Side
story right later, and you'd get and you'd get people,
(10:29):
you know, fascinating, fabulous, talented, our tour directors like Alfred Hitchcock,
you know, not only making you know, things like a
spell Bound and notorious you know, at the end of
World War two, black and white, but also in the
fifties you'd get him directing Rear Window and north By
Northwest these films and gorgeous you know, color invoking sort
(10:52):
of color and war style, particularly Rear Window. So it's
really interesting and and I have to honor hitch it
since birthday, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Recording on his birthday, and we wouldn't be doing him justice.
We didn't give at list a shout out.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
That's right, that's right, and.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Mentioned a couple of his films and he was. He's
a great example of doing both black and white and
color kind of not kind of being very successful in
both and being able to adapt.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, and you know, and he was making films.
He was making films in Germany in the silent there,
you know, German expressionism, right, and so you know, and
then he's making films in Great Britain, you know. And
and so he was, you know, right from the silent era.
So he understood. And he was a designer, right, so
he understood you know, you know, he would storyboard all
(11:47):
the shots, right, he understood that it was told visually. Right.
Of course you sound wonderfully as well, you know, with
composers such as you know, Bernard Herman and Franz Walks
Waksman and so forth. But yeah, the visual you know,
and that's so important in film war.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But yeah, yeah, absolutely, in the way that they could
use picture or the lack or darkness to really illustrate
a point and really get you kind of scared or
nervous or whatever the mood would allow you to take.
(12:25):
Compared to today where we have all these great special effects,
and they were basically doing it with the camera for
lack of.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
A yeah, yeah, Falegy and it's amazing and Rore window, right,
because that's a huge set to sort of be the
look of shooting on location in Grant's village in New
York City, right, So that you know, and and it's
amazing what they did, you know with that. And they
had you know, they had the lighting was so you know, sophisticated,
(12:56):
and they had you know, they had it set ups
to show you sort of you know magic account or
a dusk or you know, or or later at night,
you know, they got rain showers. They have the sort
of you know, the neon sign and the dark alleys, right,
and so yeah, so it was really really wonderful what
they did with that film, you know, and.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Really it's hard to believe, you know, at first at
first glance that that was all done on a stage, yeah,
stage and not really shot in on location for like
again like.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Better word, well, what's amazing in both the classic film
war you know, the forties and something like r Windows say,
is I mean directors like Hitchcock or you know, Billy
Wilder or Howard Hawks or whoever whoever you know, they
could they could control you know, the look, the style
of lighting the shadows, the color, you can control every
(13:51):
aspect of production when it was shot on a sound stage,
and so you know, that would really enhance the look
could feel of the film, the wir style and black
and white or what I call color noir and films
like We're Window, right, and later later you get neo
noir films, whether it's things like you know, Laic Confidential
or or you know, a whole slew of you know,
(14:15):
very very famous films. I even consider, you know, the
Godfather movies shot by the great Gordon Willis. I consider
Godfather one and two though those are those are new
Millar movies, new for new right, so new, a new
articulation of film noir. And and those those films were
some of the last films shot with the Technicolor labs
(14:36):
before they closed the Technicolor lab down in the US,
and so that really enhanced the look and feel in
the visual style of these films beautifully shot by Gordon Willis,
you know, with director Francis for Koppel of course, and
so really really amazing, amazing films, and even overseas you see,
you know, the legacy and the influence of one of
(14:57):
the great films that I love. That's the sort of
Frank American French American co production. Is bertrand Trevanni's around
Midnight from nineteen eighty six and they I remember they
premiered that in my class when I was a film
student at USC in the Cinema School, and you know,
they he came and he talked about you know, all
the jazz musicians like Dexter Gordon, you know, coming and
(15:20):
filming with that, and how you know Scorsese, Mark Scorcees
is in the film. He's such an influential figure in
the in the you know, Neil nol R, right, yeah,
And and so they're shooting in Paris, and they're shooting,
you know, in New York, and they're shooting on a
sound stage outside of Paris, and he's invoking you know,
nineteen nineteen fifty nine Blue Note Jazz Club in the
(15:41):
fifties and Paris and dun gorgeous, just absolutely gorgeous New
North style. And so you know, films like that really,
you know, really resonate, right, They're really memorable.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Absolutely absolutely sure. I know we're getting close on time.
But one more question I have for you is did
anything surprise you during the research and the writing of
this book.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm often surprised by what I find, you know,
in writing these things. I mean originally, you know, when
when I was doing work on noir and censorship, I
was surprised to find these membos right saying, you know, hey,
you have these restrictions on the amount of light you
can use. They have blackouts, and they're you know, I
(16:26):
was surprised, you know, I was surprised to find that,
and that was that's sort of spurred you know, all
my book, my books and my graduate work and so forth,
and so I was really surprised by that. And I
was also surprised by when I was doing this book,
how things like television and the industry converting to television
(16:46):
by the fifties, late forties, fifties, and how because of
the technological limitations on early television in late forties and fifties,
you couldn't do it basically kind of killed more style
in motion of pictures because they wanted to shoot films
so you could shoot show them on television, and so
you could, but the shadows and the great montages and
(17:08):
the art shots, all the things in a high contrast,
keep focus, and all of that you know, on this
small screen sort of fuzzy low res TV right, it
wouldn't show up, and so that really mitigated against film Norris.
It sort of killed this sort of stipe you will,
the style, but it sort of re emerges in different
ways in the fifties and in color and then in
(17:29):
the neo noir in the streaming era. So it is
really surprised by how influence, how much influence the technological
developments and adapting to that would affect the evolving film
war style that we see. And also when you get
to when you get to you know, fabulous later films
like Alex Proyce's nineteen ninety eight Dark City, which is
(17:52):
shot on film, but you have this sort of burgeoning
digital effects starting to really affect the look and fields gorgeous.
It's a gorgeous sort of futuristic sci fi noir like
Bladed Runner, but it's visually it does this gorgeous homage
to forties and noir basically throughout it, and it's it's
fabulous to look at. And by the time you get
(18:12):
to the streaming era, in the digital era, I found
it really fascinating. How you know, streamers like Netflix, they
would they would do homages to Noir. They would they
would require, you know, technical specs so that you know,
filmmakers are shooting things in four K or above, right,
they would do things to really emulate the cinematic look
(18:32):
or even emphasize the North style and the sort of
visual high res, visual resolution that you see in our films.
And so I was really struck by that. And you'd
see how that plays out and how you get you know,
whether you're watching the Irish Men write on Netflix some
of the long form productions, right, I mean, originally when
you had the Daredevil and Jessica Jones show on Netflix,
(18:53):
they're darker than when they rebooted them over you know
on Disney. Right, they were pro co productions, and later
on they sort of moved or things like Ozark, you know,
or Babelo Berlin and these things like this, right, So
those are really really you know, fascinating works. So I
was surprised by the sort of synergy between the technology
(19:14):
and the evolution and adaptability and endurability of the North
style even through the digital streaming era. So that was
really fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Excellently. Well, before I want to go, I do have
one more. Since this is called Forgotten Hollywood, I have
a couple of suggestions of forgotten films that you would
recommend for our listeners to check out.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean rare, rare films. Yes, absolutely, there's a fabulous,
fabulous post war film that for a while was not
available but is now on Blu ray. It's hard to find.
It's Fred Zinnemann's nineteen forty eight film. In some areas,
it was released in forty nine, and it's called Active Violence,
(20:01):
and it's fabulous, fabulous, fabulous film with they shot it
on location on the streets of Los Angeles at night
and they man, he's got Van Heflin and Robert Ryan
and and a very young Janet l before she changes
her hair and everything. But it's a really great film.
They have films like that that are rare. I mean,
I talk about so many different films in this book,
(20:24):
but yeah, I do a lot of coverage and Active
Violence because it's such a great film and it's it's
really it's this underrated, underrecognized gem of a nor film.
And there are other, you know, more famous, you know,
examples rare things. I think that in the New and
Ore era, I think films like Dark City are amazing.
I of course talked about the Coen Brothers and things
(20:45):
like Lebowski and and and and Barton Fink, which are great.
Uh and uh. You know, there's a lot of really
interesting string productions as well. There's a lot of I mean,
if if folks have not this is these are very
well known films. But but if film buffs out there
are new to discovering film noir. If you have not
seen Double Ademnity and The Big Sleep and Out of
(21:07):
the Past, please do so. You know, if you haven't
seen you know, Hitchcock's notorious and Red Window in north
By Northwest, please do so. If you have not seen
Orson Wells's you know, a Lady from Shanghai, particularly the
mirror sequence. I mean that's just you know, just knocks
you out right. It's so good. Yeah, And I and
(21:29):
I and I am partial to the forties. I must
say that nitrate, you know, classic era, that's my favorite,
you know. And but you have rare films in the
fifties that people may not know about. You have films
like independent productions like The Thief, which doesn't even have
any dialogue in it. It just has this gorgeous location photography.
It's sort of you know, conjuring up the Cold War,
(21:52):
you know, shot on location, you know, in New York
City and Washington, d C. And it has a spectacular
finale on top of the Empires State Building with this
gorgeous skyline of New York in the fifties, and so,
you know, really amazing. If folks are into sort of seeing,
you know, I mean, you have more Westerns and more
musicals and more sci fi and things. But if you
(22:16):
I you know, I've written much about more musicals because
it's such a bizarre sort of amalgam right of certain
war together, and I talk about I do a lot
of writing on the George kuker Is nineteen fifty four,
A Star Is Born with Judy Garland and James Mason.
That's a fabulous film, as well as you know, Robert
(22:39):
Wise's West Side Story from nineteen sixty one. I'm on
this picture. And these are bigger productions, obviously much bigger budgeted.
But if you have you know, young film history buffs
who maybe haven't seen some of the really famous productions,
it's you know, the next time you watch it. When
I was in film school, it was the first time
I saw West Side Story, just done work research on
(23:01):
A Star Is Born, and I was seeing West Side
Story for the first time on the big screen. And
when I was growing up, i'd seen just on the
small screen TV sometimes the black and white, even in
croft pandin scan right. And so I had just turned
in my My Star's Born paper and I was and
everybody was going to go home and go to bed.
But I came in late and I said, Oh, they're
(23:22):
screening West Side Story in a gorgeous thirty five millimeter
archive print. And I said, I'll just go in to watch.
And they were in the rumble and they were doing
the Rumble number and it was so good. It was
just like transformative. I saw it was like, oh my god,
this is it's a normal musical. Oh my god. You know,
and you have a sort of color noir aesthetic in
(23:43):
these color nor style and in normal musicals like that.
And whether it's Red Window or whether it's A Star
Is Born or whether it's West Side Story, you've got
you've got these color shades and muted tones emulating the
look and feel a black and white film, right, whether
it's some grays or browns or beiges and black and white,
navy blue. But then if you have a dominant color,
(24:06):
you have these streaks of sort of scarlet red, right,
whether it's the brick and the neon in the window,
or whether it's you know, something Judy Garland's wearing and
it starts born right, or whether it's you know, all
those red lights and the sirens flashing and everything in
the West Head Story and they're that rumble number and
it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So yeah, passion for cinema, you know, I encourage passion
for cinema. Lover for the forgotten film history and the
classic nor films and their incarnations and contemporary cinema and streaming.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know, I have to agree with you on a
couple of things. One is I love the forties as well.
I think that's just a very awesome time, a lot
of films in there to watch. And then the other
thing that you had said and I completely agree with,
is getting these younger students slash generation to look and
(25:02):
watch some of these classic or older films and they
don't be classic, but I have found that if you've
you picked the right film, that's that will actually go
a long way with students being captivated and say, oh,
I don't want to watch a black and white that's
old or or forgotten or sane. Yeah, find that that
(25:26):
right film. You can actually capture them and you'll be
amazed at what they they start to get it.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Absolutely and watching something like Stig, whether it's Billy Wilder, right, yeah,
the Bolevard or Double Indemnity, right, I mean, yeah, you
know it's so good and you know a huge cop,
you know, notorious you know, uh, you know rear Window
north By Northwest when he's hanging off the cliff, right, it's.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Like absolutely yeah, And it's just amazing to watch their
eyes in them getting involved, because I think a lot
of times we don't give that younger generation credit, like, oh,
they're not going to get it. They're not going to
enjoy it, they're not going to love it. They just
need to be exposed to it. And yeah, a big,
big believer exposing them to the right films will develop
(26:16):
a love.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean that's what it was for me.
And so you know, that's why I decided to pursue,
you know, becoming a film historian and teaching film history
and film noir because you know, when I was a student,
I was seeing these films for the first time, you know,
I was. I was finally seeing Casablanca and Comfortable and
so forth. Right, I didn't know who Kerry was, and
(26:40):
now you know, and you know, you discover this passion
for cinema. You see Rita Hayworth and Guilda right all right, yeah, yeah,
and it completely changes the way that you that you
look and see and watch and and engage with, you know,
whether it's cinema, whether it's contemporary digital streaming media and
(27:03):
new media online, right, it completely changes even if you watch,
even if you watch commercials or any other media form,
you can tell if something has you know, someone has
been exposed to lots of things. And you know, we
have students who often are learning, you know, they're taking
production classes, they're learning filmmaking for themselves to make their
(27:24):
own new productions. And if they're being exposed to things,
that just sort of helps, you know, synergize and cultivate
all these sort of creative judices for them to draw
on when they're doing their own films and making their
own productions. So it's really inspiring, right, absolutely, We'll share it.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
We're out of time. Unfortuately, but I want to thank
you so much for coming on and to our listeners,
please go out and get a cop of through It
nor Lens adapting the film no Oir Visual Style, Columbia
University Press. You can find it on Amazon or wherever
you find your books. And again, Sherry, thank you so
(28:03):
much for coming on and spending a few minutes of
your day with us.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Thank you so much, my pleasure, well.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Thank you, and thank you for listening to this episode
of Forgotten Hollywood. Your search for doug Hester Forgotten Hollywood.
You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram at hestog fourteen.
If you listen to this podcast and iTunes another podcast service,
please subscribe, rate and review this episode. Tune in next
time for the late US episode of Forgotten Hollywood. Thank
you for listening and we will see you then
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