Extra Episode | Bart Womack | US Army Old Guard, 101st Airborne, Invasion of Iraq - Former Action Guys Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the Former Action

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for the support and let's get to the show. So, Bart,
you join the army. I think I read you joined
your army in nineteen seventy seven. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (00:37):
And that time you served. You know, one thing that
you that you served in was did a tomb of
the Unknown Soldier, which is pretty cool, and I want
to get into that. I want to get into some
of the other stuff you did as a command start
major and the conflicts and stuff that you were in.
But I want to start with like nineteen seventy seven
is an interesting time to join the military, right, there
was no draft at that point. Hadn't it been abolished

(00:59):
by that point? And it wasn't. I don't. I mean,
if you look at media, it looks like at that
time it wouldn't have been a very popular choice as
a profession. Why did you choose the army?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah? Good question. And and you're leading into this that
the statements that that you're mentioning I probably had no
awareness of. I mean, I knew the draft was over,
but because it was over, I was never total anything
about that the effects of it, or alcohols we were
or anything like that. Because it was it was, it

(01:33):
was gone.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
So but how I ended up joining the military.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
So in those days, the recruiters, uh were frequently in
the hallways of high schools trying to recruit and I
guess I'd agreeing with the city to be able to
do that in public schools and uh, but I never
spoke to them, just walked past and just kept on going.
But a few of my my classmates did do that

(01:59):
and end up joining the military. But for me, I
was seventeen year old, seventeen years old when I graduated
and I told myself that, well, I knew I wasn't
ready for college at that particular time. I wasn't necessarily
a good student. I was a guy who got an A,
then a D, then an A, then a B, and
then a B then a D just when I was

(02:22):
not focused on school. But I worked. So I was
working after high school and my next oldest brother wrecked
the car that I used to drive to work, so
I had to start catching the bus.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
And it was a winter time in Columbus, Ohio.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
I was born and raised, and in between transferring from
one bus to another, I went into the recruiter station
to get warm, and that led to me joining the military.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Not right away.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
It took about four months later before I finally joined.
One thing in my favorite I was seventeen and needed
my mother to sign and I didn't even tell her
until two months later. You know, my whole motors operande
was getting getting warm, not not to Julian the military.
So once I start talking to you, one thing led
to another, and uh, you know I finally finally joined.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
They got you, yeah, did they? I mean, what was
it like to choose a job at that point? Was
it the same? I mean, can you could you pick
any job then or how was that classified?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, you could pick any job. You know, you had
to finally take your tests and everything. So yeah, I
went in there in October. I finally did the testing
in February and then had some choices of that particular
time to join.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, and how was that initial training? Go and talk
about your MOS training and then you know, getting into
your actual first unit.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, it was. Uh, it was an experience, you know,
just like basically training always is. If you haven't done
it before, it's going to be something new. In my
head already been pretty athletic, so it wasn't, you know,
backbreaking or anything like that. I don't remember anything that
I had trouble doing except for shooting. That was that
was a problem. And the reason was the problem because

(04:10):
I'm pretty good with both hands, you know, pretty good.
I wouldn't I wouldn't get and I really right handed,
but I'm pretty good with the left hand, but uh
not to the point was super skilled. The problem I
had from shooting was being a right handed fire I
was closing my right eye so I couldn't hit targets.

(04:34):
So I think the rain in struck though maybe even
drelsar and finally got to my right flank or so
where they could see my face because they're watching the
trigger trying to figure out it's too much squeeze and
all that, and then you know, obviously that close you can
see my face and it was like, dude, you have
the wrong eye closed. So once they fixed that, I
was able to hit targets. And that was my only

(04:56):
through obstacle, I would say, in basically training. And I
remember the the airborne recruiter coming there and recruiting people
for airborne school, and I didnt knew nothing about the military,
like you heard. I stumbled upon joining in the first place,
I do even less about airborne and asking what that

(05:17):
was and I said, well, you jump out of airplanes.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I said, well, you got to be crazy.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
And then I learned that to pay fifty five extra dollars,
I was like, okay, I'm in. And that led to
airborne school. And then the the dynamic in airborne school was,
you know, you get there, you might be there for
a few days or maybe even a week, and then
your class is going to start.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
It's three weeks and then you're.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Out of there. Right, Well, I was there for five
weeks and all we did was detail. I mean we
cleaned up for Benning, trash cut grass hedges, you name it.
We were doing it Monday through Saturday. And they forgot
about us a whole group, and I remember how many.
It was probably made up about half of a class,

(06:04):
maybe a quarter of a class, but there was probably
about thirty of us. They just forgot about. And when
they realized that we had been there for so long,
it hadn't started one I oda of training. It put
us through the fastest airborne school ever and I think
we had I think it was ten days straight. It

(06:25):
was nine or ten days straight. Now you know it's
broken down five days jump week, five days tower week,
five days jump week. We did it all nine or
ten days to include the jumps. We were doing two
jumps a day.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's how they ought to do it, right, I mean,
might as well, yeah, make it more efficient, right. It
seems like that works. The Navy has their own jump
school where I think it's like a week and then
you're qualified to do static line in the Navy.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think part of it could be the well, I
don't remember what it was in those days. I can't say,
but I will make this statement in reference to that
is when when you are brand new to the Army,
you know your assignment, your following assignment after airborne school

(07:15):
is consistent with someone else getting out of the military.
You know, So from a from a man power standpoint,
that could be the reason that it is that long.
I don't know, just spitballing here in terms of that,
because that's what it was for me, So people coming
into the Army didn't that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
But other than that, yeah, it seems like it would.
Everybody would benefit if you sped up the Yeah, the training, right,
you know, safely obviously. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't go.
I didn't go to Airborne just a nasty leg over here.
Very uh not as many Marines obviously go to jump school.

(07:52):
I had guys on my team. Half my team went
to jump school. They had started sending them right before
I got there, before deployment, because an anglic Co team
can support the Army, can support foreign forces. So we
had like within our team, like a smaller element that
could jump in. Did you you know after you went
to jump school where you're like, yeah, this is pretty awesome,

(08:12):
Like I'm jumping out of planes or you know, are
you one of those people that are just miserable, like
you hate every time you went out?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Oh no, I didn't hate it. It was I don't think.
It took a while to realize. I went straight to
out eighty second. Took a while to realize the impact
and know the history of airborne And once you get
today eighty second, didn't you didn't you get that? I
didn't necessarily fill that while I was in airborne school.
I was busy doing details. So yeah, for sure, and

(08:40):
cut the grass. But once you get today second, do
you know history of jumping and all those types of things,
And it's a you know, a totally different animal of
of why it happens and all those types of things.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
But I look forward to it all the time. You'd
be surprised at how.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Many times there's a jump schedule that doesn't happen like
it happens like more than you would like to. And
then you get into pay issues, you know, because you
have to jump. I figure what it is now like
once every ninety days for pay, and if you don't
then they want to take that pay away, you know,
so they have to schedule special jumps for pay that

(09:19):
happens more than you could possibly imagine, just because of
weather or aircraft that was scheduled that day for a jump.
There's a lot of jumps that this caned.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
So how was it, so you said you went to
the eighty second, How was it when you got there?
When you went? Were there are a lot of this
is nineteen seventy seven seventy eight time frame. Were there
still like some holdovers from Vietnam? There had to have been, right, Like,
what was that like being underneath a bunch of Vietnam veterans?

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, as soon as you said what was it like
in eighty second, that's the first thing I was going
to mention that there were some and I think that
those that were still there that obviously decided they wanted
to make the military career at the Vietnam I don't
remember it talking to them about Vietnam or asking them
like when they had like when it was their last tour.
I didn't have those conversations with them. But you could

(10:09):
see these guys and because they made their decision to
stand in military, they were they were strapped, like their
uniforms were squared away, their boots were squared away. You know,
we were still in the O D uniforms we had
to wear to anyone to jump boots in their you know,
highly spit shine. I mean, they set a great example
of of of leadership, a great example of what the

(10:32):
soldiers look like. You know, they they'd be in your
your butt if you were wrong. But they were. They
were really I won't say really cool. I mean they
were but you could see what what the army was
and really no signs of war on them, if that

(10:54):
makes any sense. These guys are pretty squared away.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, I know what you mean when you say those
signs of war on them, Like, yeah, that's what you have,
really good professionals. You know, some people really embraced that
war fighter attitude, you know, or embrace. I mean a
lot of guys we talked about Vietnam people going to
Vietnam and getting drafted, but there was a lot of
guys that served in Vietnam that re enlisted and went

(11:18):
back right, you know, on multiple tours because they enjoyed it.
You know, it's just a different kind of life.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Right. He was a tall, slim guy, you know, so
that that od green uniform was.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Just straight down.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
His boots glistened you know, you had C, I, B
and everything and master wings. He was just he was
just super.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Strapped when you first got to the eighty second. Was
there anything going on at the time or was it
more of a peacetime military feeling, you know, what was
what was going on?

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, Pisan, that's what's going on.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
So what were you training for? What was the training?

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Like, I mean, it wasn't really anything that was on
the horizon at that time. So I was there from
seventy seven to seventy nine, so I probably got there
I want to say late summer, so August or something
like that.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
You know, he's still learning the army as.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
A whole, and I think the discipline in the army
was a little bit different then, not that you could
get away with a whole lot, but you could.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Get away with some things.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
But our company to the point from a discipline standpoint,
we had a major as a company commander, you know four,
So we had a major commander because he could issued
phild grade article fifteens. So people I get. I want
to say, people weren't afraid of a company grade Article fifteen,
but they were. It went enough punishment, you know, it

(12:55):
fell great argile fifteen to do more to you, which
you mean of your career here. So we had a
you know, Vietnam veteran major who got wounded in Vietnam
and lost the eye, so we were he had an eyepatch.
So you think about that as your kind of commanders.
You're saying, you know, daily with that ipadch on and

(13:16):
you know c IB and everything. But he can issue
a field grade Article fifteen. I remember him telling me,
you can get a two dollars haircut or you can
get a two hundred and fifty dollars haircut, and I
chose the two dollar haircut.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Take it, damn take haircuts pretty seriously back then. That's aggressive.
When I was at Anglico, we had a our CEO,
one of the CEOs I had there. Anglico is a
company level unit in the Marine Corps, but it's commanded
by a lieutenant colonel and same kind of deal. You'd

(13:57):
go into his office and his is like bulletproof chest
plate we call sappy plate with the guts coming out
of it because it had been shot, is like on
a shelf behind him, and he's like missing one of
his like the tip of his uh pointer finger on
one hand because his finger got shot off and it
went into a sappy plate when he was like an
advisor and iraq. So you're like when you go in,

(14:20):
you're like, Okay, this guy's legit.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
You know.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
It gives a different vibe, right.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I experience.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, did I gotta ask, is there like a fan
or something that just got turned on?

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Give me a sacond.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Okay, it just got really loud in the head.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
I heard it. I was like, oh, my gosh, should
have turned that off.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
No big deal.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
I'm going to give it a few minutes, just the
like the heater thing was on and things like right
behind me.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I apologized, No, that's all good. I'll cut that part out.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
So you give it a few minutes, it'll cut off.
I turned it off, but it has to do its
regular regulate thing or whatever.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, no, it's all good. So so you're at the
eighty second, you know, nothing's going on. You're doing a
lot of trainings. I get premian. It's got to get
monotonis right. You're like, oh, here we go. I gotta
go do another jump or gotta go do another movement.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, it was. So. I was there for probably about
eighteen months and then I went to Korea four year
and you know, so now you're joining the obviously of
the world, right. I don't remember recruiters saying that. I
don't think I was in all that. But here I
am in Korea, which I volunteered, and you know or

(15:46):
you hear that, Okay, there's an enemy there, right, yeah,
and there was a war there some years prior, but
not really focused on that there is a war that
could happen again. Although year, although you're in the environment,
but where I was stationed at, I wasn't close to

(16:06):
the DMZ or anything, so because of that, you don't
think about the potential fight at all. And I was
in Korea four year, played a lot of sports, took
martial arts, and then went back to the eighty second
And I was back in eighty second, for it was
still a very short period of time, the mate sergeant.

(16:29):
And then I was stationed in Turkey. So now I'm
in Turkey four year again playing a lot of sports.
And I remember my bas saying I went I went
to play because he know he played flag football. I
played flag football, played basketball, I played tennis, I played volleyball,
and I ran track and each one of those. Every

(16:51):
time there was a championship, you went to the gens
in Italy. That's what that was, the higher command, that
was the two star command, and that's what championship was
if you won at the at the I guess six
level command at that level, right, And we won at
that level a lot. So all the championships were in Turkey,

(17:16):
I'm sorry, in Italy. And I remember going to Italy
and I went for tennis, and I went back to
Turkey for like about four days and I was right
back on the plane to Italy for for for track
and I went there for volleyball and bost of them
let me go for basketball or football.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
That's really interesting, like the doing that kind of sports
thing I had. I've had a couple of people on
I had a female Marine captain who does the international
bob sledding competitions and I think she's tried out for
the Olympics team and the Marine Corps kind of facilitates that.

(17:59):
And then I've had guys that are on like shooting
teams that get to travel around. I don't think I
think I had I want to say I had a
guy that was on like all Marine Corps boxing team
and then they would get the box at the Army
Boxers and stuff like that. But yeah, that's like an
interesting thing that not a lot of people take advantage
of while they're in the military. Is all these like

(18:21):
sporting things that you can get into. Some of them
lead into like legitimate international competition, and some of it's
just like good intermural sports for everybody.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, and this was this is at the end meyal level,
and you know, not not at the not at the
Army level or en forces level. Those was just n merrill.
It just so happened that when you made it to
a certain part all the championships and everyone who won
in their particular area the championship games were held and

(18:53):
where the command was and the commands happened to be
in Italy. So that was the plane rider over there.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
And go o's not a bad vacation, not a bad vacation.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
And I was training for I was training for the
Greek Marathon. Men, I think I'm the sergeant now, and
there was a captain and we were training for the
Greek Marathon. And I would run ten miles a day
and you know, four in the morning, six in the
evening or six in the morning and four in the
evening Monday through Friday, and then ten miles on Saturday,

(19:26):
and then as we got closer to be another ten
miles on Sunday, you know, so we got closer to
the day of the marathon, it would be seventy miles
a week, and were probably about a month from going away,
and I got tagged to go to what was called
in primary Leadership Development course, so that first level, that

(19:47):
first level leadership which is in Germany, and then I
never got to go run the marathon.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's a bummer. That would have been really cool running
a marathon on like historic yeah, you know, a historic
route or like through all that history. That's one of
those places I really like to go and see, like,
you know, the ancient kind of history that you get
to travel a lot. Sounds like, so you went to Korea,
now you're you went to Turkey, Italy, Germany, Like.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, Germany, that sounds like it was.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, but I mean even if you're only there for
a couple of weeks, I mean that's still cool. Yeah,
And then I can what was it like in Turkey.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
I really enjoyed Turkey. You know, when you first get there,
they make everyone go through what's called a head start,
so you are learning basic basic Turkish. And I still
had that little, my little book to this date, this
nineteen eighty nineteen eighty one, and you know I wrote
down everything in that book, and every time I went

(20:49):
out into public, I had that book with me and
moved station they called Choco Mockley. It was about forty
kilometers from Istanbul. So when we would go to Istanbul,
you know I could take public transportation, you know, I
could take the bus to train taxi, I could go
to restaurants and order food. I could take the ferry
across to the other side. I went all over all

(21:11):
over Turkey with with with that book and just basic
basic Turkish.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Do you think I mean, I don't know what the
vibe on the ground is right now. If you if
it's like easy to visit now, you know? Yeah, I did,
I think it. I don't think it would be too bad.
What's that?

Speaker 2 (21:29):
No? I don't, I don't, I don't think. So. I
did go back again in twenty twelve, but think I
was so I was there first in eighty one and
then went back in twenty twelve.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Had it changed a lot in that timeframe.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
I was in a different area, but I didn't. I
didn't feel it as though it had because I went
to a bizarre at which I had gone to many bazaars,
went in in the istam Bult area, but when I
went back, I was in Inserlik. But here's a here's
a story. So it's nine eighty one, and you know,
Turkeys is becoming westernized a little bit, to the point

(22:07):
where they begin to get television from the States. It's old,
they're like years behind, but they're finally getting it right.
So we first get the Turkey and they say, don't
wear you know, certain shirts, and they told you when
you went over there, don't wear stuff with the America
on it or anything like that. Stay in your room

(22:30):
because if you stayed in the hotel room before we
went to the little base and they would come get
us to take us to eat, take us straight back
to the hotel. Then they finally Stufy, we're gonna take
you to the bizarre. Saturday is a big bizarre day.
We're gonna take you to the bazaar. It's probably about
five of us, right, we're all load in the van,
or maybe six. We load in the van and we

(22:50):
go to the bazaar. We get in there, Stuf walking
around and then we hear con Turk. Can't We look around,
like where where's LeVar Burton because we want to see
him too, And there's no LeVar Burton. It's us. It

(23:11):
was me and two of the black guys and they
were looking at us like we're Kunta Kentey. So they
had just bat Roots on television nineteen eighty one. I
think Boce came out in seventy five or seventy six.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
That's hilarious. That's cultures right there.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's what you get when you go it overseas. You
get these funny as because they see on TV or
stereotypes right right right, you know. And I don't know.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
And then there was another movie that there was another
tubleon show that came on called White Shadow is about
this this basketball coach that coached these players, right, and
so one of the guys that was with us, it
is probably about sixty three or so, you know, tall guy,
and we went to this one shop and this guy
start calling us those players, but haven't watched the show.

(23:56):
We knew who he was talking about. We start call
in the coach and I can't remember the coach's name,
but he was calling us the player's name. It was
very but again that that's them embracing and adapting and
finally getting Western television and IT shows, even though the
shows were old by.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
That time, a little aged. Yeah. Yeah, if you could
visit one place again, what would it be? Would it
be Italy or Turkey or Germany?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Ooh, so I've been. I've been to Germany a few times,
even I say recently twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, so we
can check that one off. And I mean I was
in Germany for that school, which you know, I think
a few weeknds you might have like one day to
do something. So my highlight was going to Munich one time.

(24:45):
But the rest of the time, you know, you had
classes and curfew and all kinds of stuff. Uck. So
I really didn't get an opportunity to see Germany except
for that one time. So I went back in twenty eighteen,
twenty nineteen. It was a totally different experience, and as
I mentioned, I went through Turkey again, a different part, but.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
I was able to see.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
I would say, how far they've advanced in the Western civilization.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
You mean you would have thought that you were.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
You didn't really know that you were in Turkey until
you heard people talk and more people speaking English. Where
back in those days that wasn't the case. It was
very very little and you could get some broken English
in there, so it was really incoming upon you to
learn some Turkish, even if it was broken. You know,
you could get around in order. Like I mentioned, but
if there's a place I would go back to country wise, Wow,

(25:40):
And I ended up going back to Korea too, so
pretty much double tackle those places, but not Italy. So
I guess Italy would be a country if there was
a place in the United States. I was stationed in
Hawaii for three years, but we spent a lot of
time in the field or deployed in the state, it
would be Hawaii.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Who are you with in Hawaii?

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Uh twenty fifth?

Speaker 1 (26:05):
I d okay, yeah after you? So after all, at
what point did you go up to work in d C.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah? So once I once I finished the time in Turkey,
I had applied to be a drill sarten so I
went straight to drill Starten school from Turkey. I think
it's about I think it was eight weeks at the time,
and completed that and then I had a two year
tour as a drill sarten at Fort Dixon, New Jersey.
UH completed that, and then I went to Korea. So

(26:36):
now I'm assigned in the DMZ. So before I wasn't
you know, close to it. Now now I'm assigned. You know,
it's it's right there. So it's a place called the JSA,
the Joint Security Area. So the Joint Security Area is
what you see on television when they said they're having
the peace talks. It's right in the j s A.
And those buildings there on one side of the building

(27:00):
is if you go into the door, go into the
bill we have the peace talks. There is a line
on the floor. There's a line on a table, so
you have one tableway to do the talks. And there's
a there's microphones on the table and there's wire that
goes across and that wire represents the line. Outside. There's
some concrete slabs like like a step, but it's you know,

(27:22):
it's kind of thick. That represents the line on the outside.
They're turning the north and the south inside that room.
Those microphones on the table facing each side, the north
in the south and the wires from the microsophones represent
the debarkation point. That's the line, so if you go

(27:44):
on the other side, then you know you're on the
north side. So when we would have tours, you would
have to go inside that room and lock the door
on the north so no one could come in. And
when they had a tour you lock the door, they
would come in and lock the door on the south side,
so again you're you're right there in it. So this
unit was called the JSF, the Joint Security Force Company

(28:07):
inside the JSA, so the patoon I was in or
in JSF. The way it operated was your platoon rotated
and there are four platoons.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
One platoon would be north, which.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Was the JSA itself, so you have a two day
tour inside there and influctuated from two days to four days,
and then there was one that was that QRF, and
there was one that was training, there was one that
was off, So it's the rotation of four platoons doing
one of those things. You just rotated, so you went

(28:44):
from off the QRF. So in the morning of the
morning of assuming QRF, you would get the ammunition and
everything from the previous QR patoon you get all that
loaded onto your trucks and then you would go to
the QR site and that would be weekdays money through Friday,
and you were there to be a response to anything

(29:06):
happening inside the JSA. There was like another mile maybe
another mile and a half of the road itself. If
anything happened inside of there, you were responding to that.
So that's why you're there Monday or Friday, Monday through
Friday because that's when the tours work. So after qure
f you do the change over again the oncoming cure

(29:29):
forget all the enye and everything, and then you transition
to north. Then you'd be going up and you're in
the JSA for two days, So you spent two days there.
The tune would be broken down. Now Opportune was half
g I, half Korean soldier and they were called catoosas
Korean augmented to the United States Army. So most of

(29:50):
these Catoosas were, you know, the families were kind of
well off, so they're able to do that option versus
the rock Army Republic of Career Army, which is a
lot hard would have been a lot harder for them,
you know, I will say it was soft, but probably
most of.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Them, and they are those dudes that sit there and
try to look hardcore with they.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Get out, get out here. You're not rock, so your rock,
so you wouldn't be here. Uh. They've only got there
because of because of a privilege, and they were you know,
entire because their parents had money and everything. Now every
every male in Korea must serve, must be in the
military for two years. QUI, I don't care what statue

(30:35):
they reached. Like the PGA tour golfers that are from Korea,
they might not go exactly at the requirement age, but
they must go. So no matter how good they are
on a p tour, they have to. There's a two
album sorry, a two year break where they are off
the tour and they're in the military and then they

(30:56):
come back.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Were some of their famous there was like some famous
kpe pop singers that did that. Yeah, I remember last
year maybe the year before where it was like a
huge deal. You know, apparently k pop is massive, so
there was like a huge deal that some of them
had to like leave the band for a little while
to do go do their repulsory military service.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Right, they don't get out of it. I don't care
what their status is or what they reached to or
it doesn't matter. They must serve.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Did you while you were there, did you ever see
any North Korean defectors try to cross or did you
see anybody like come across the lines?

Speaker 2 (31:31):
I wonder why you came up with that? What made
you think of that?

Speaker 1 (31:36):
I mean it just happened sometimes, or I mean were
you directly involved with something like that, because if you were,
I did I wasn't aware.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, yeah, well I was going to get to that.
So I told you about the rotation of the batoons, right,
so we are this is this is Thanksgiving Day in
Korea nineteen eighty four, sore up north and Jay said itself,
and because it was a holiday, that were throwing any
tours for the US side. And there's the tours that

(32:06):
they would come up from. Wow, where did they come from?
They would come from all over Korea. Sometimes there would
be one bus, sometimes be two bus, two buses full
of people just touring the area. And every time that
there was a tour, we'd have our guards out there
to guard. Right, and we're dressed up in what was

(32:28):
the uniform called in it's gonna get me on this one.
What we call it the Class B uniform. So it
was just the shirt. We had a jacket where if
it was an inclement weather or you know, chili weather or.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Whatever, but if it was warm, we just have to
short sleeve shirt.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
So there's no tour. But there's i want to say,
five different checkpoints, and at each checkpoint there's a g
I and there's a there's a catusa. The whole platoon
is broken down like that. You kind of have a counterparties,
you will, right, So I'm the squad leader, but my
my I have a GI team leader and a Rock

(33:07):
team leader. That Rock team leader in charge of the
Rock soldier in my squad, and then g I was
in charge of the US soldiers in my squad. But
there's no tours, so we're not out there guarding. But
there were some workers there. So every time there's workers,
same thing that you know, a pair of GI and US.
I'm sorry, the GI and the the twos are out

(33:28):
there as a pair on guard. So the North Korea
did have a tour, and even when they have a tour,
we put somebody outside. So there was this guy. There
was two guys on this tour and they are down
from there from their main building, near that main peace

(33:51):
talks building I was telling you about. So they decided
to take a picture. So one guy has his back
to them the U side, well the south, you know,
because of the Korea. So he has his back to
the south and facing the north on the north side, and.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
He's taking a picture with the guard and his buddy
is taking a.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Picture of him. So while he's taking that picture, he
takes off and runs across to the south side, and
the guard starts chasing him and starts shooting. So now
there's a full on firefight. We come out of our
building and they come out of their building, and a

(34:33):
few more from the north. So the kPa Korean People's Army,
a few kPa people came out and they started trying
to chase the guard, I mean the guy who ran across.
So he defected. He ended up being from China. That
was the planet is to go to North Korea to defect.
So they start coming across. Now there's this huge firefight,

(34:53):
back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and
the bullets are flying. Where they came out across, it
was it was high ground as opposed to where we
were in our building. It was lower ground, I mean
almost like almost like this, So them shooting at us,
by virtue of the elevation just went right over our

(35:15):
heads like clear, you didn't have to even and of
course we were down, but they were just they couldn't
get to us by virtue of the landscape, which made
it hard to return fire as well. So me and
my my teamulator we go upstairs and we knock out
a window because we could.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
We already knew that the gunfire was coming from this.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Area called the Sunken Guard. Very beautiful place they have
these they shift in these you know, very expensive gold fish.
I forget where they come from, if they're coming from
Japan or not. You know, they're really big and beautiful,
whole thing stocked with it. Right, So the planet is
were going to shoot them two three round into the

(36:01):
area where we think they are. There's a tree right there.
You know it's November. It's like there's just you know,
the twigs on there. I'm like, okay, don't hit the tree.
This is the first thing. Don't hit the tree. First
round clips the tree. Now, thankfully it doesn't deflect that
where it goes straight down because our guys are kind
of straight down. So there's two deuce in the half

(36:22):
there and all our guys are underducing the hass. We
turn fire and I said, don't hit the tree because
I don't want that round. Just go straight down and
you know, blow up there. So it deflected and went forward,
and of course you get here the explosion and everything.
Of course I take my hand and hit it on
the side of him, I said the one.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I said, nothing, dude, right, it's kind of a funny moment.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
So all right, fire again and don't hit the tree.
So he fires again, boom, and then.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
You hear yelling, ah, that's the spot.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Do the same thing. As far as another rocket, I
think it's only one or two more after that, and
you know the fires from our side still still coming,
but kind of ceases from their side. So by this
time the qureif is called. So from the JSA to

(37:18):
the camp that we stayed on called Camp Kitty Hawk,
Sour Camp Kitty Hawk. It's about three miles on the JSA.
So the drill for anything happening for the QREF will
be load trucks a loud speaker. It will come over
a loudspeaker, load trucks, so no matter where they are.
And then we're middle of Thanksgiving dinner at lunch, you know,

(37:39):
because it was served early, and they say load trucks.
So the tune of thirty five was supposed to be
on the trucks. They have about thirteen because you know,
this is real. We can't wait on you to get
everybody that was on them. That's why they're coming up
there with thirteen. So they say our fields of fire
this way, enemies that way. They ended up coming in

(38:02):
and flanking from this way. But by the time they
got there, you know, at the fire had stop. They
were trying to treat.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
Their own from from those from those.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Into a three rounds. Uh. There was military from the
Swiss and the Swede who were like keepers of the
peace between the two sides, and they had come out
of their building and they facilitated the kPa uh kind
of rescuing their own and taking them back across and everything,

(38:34):
soial referees or something. They didn't have weapons or anything
like that, you know, but five, you know, five of
them were killed. Five Kpas were killed that day, three
were critically wounded. And uh, yeah, and we lost uh,
we lost one of the Catoosas because when the fire

(38:57):
first started he ran to some high ground there's like
an old huge pad behind adjacent to our building, and
he got up there and you know, caught around here,
and then man Geei that was with him got shot.
He kind of had one of those kind of meaty

(39:18):
necks and it just went straight through. So he but
but the but the Catusa did not.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Wow, that's I didn't even know, Like because you hear
about it, You're like, oh, yeah, the Korean War is
still going on, you know. But it's like, I wonder
how often things like that are actually happening. You feel
like nowadays you would hear about that if it happened.
You know, we had that one guy that US Army
soldier crossover in the North Korea recently, and that was

(39:48):
all over the news.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
I feel like something like that at the border of
the Koreas would be big news.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
I remember hearing about it being not you know, there's
no social media, there's no intern that and hate for
right if I remember hearing about it was on the
front page of the New York Times. So I had
this really slim article and that was it. I'll say

(40:14):
there's more to be discovered in an investigation, but that
that was it. That the guy from China that was
his planned to defect. I think he had planned it
for two years. It was going to go to North
Korea communist side, go to the JSA and defect, and
that's what he did.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
What a weird way did it effect from China? Yeah,
because you could travel from China to the US at
that time, couldn't you.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
And I don't know if his modus operanti was was
South Korea or or the US.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, maybe he had family in South Korea or something.
I don't know. Yeah, that's a that's a weird way
to I mean, I guess i'd see in North Korean
I get it.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
You know, then they have some some Chinese helping them
fight as well.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Maybe it was just true.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Maybe maybe it was a descent. I don't know that
part of the story. His only remorse was that our
guy that was wounded and the South Korean soldier that
was killed. He wasn't remorse for about the North Koreans
being killed and wounded.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
So they would always they would always blast this propaganda.
I mean, like all the time over the louds figures
in Korean. We didn't understand what they were saying, so
it didn't bother us. And you know, the catuosas are
trying to tell us what they're saying, like they're talking
to you, man, they're talking to us. But after that,
so there was some So they're building, uh, they're headquarters

(41:39):
in the JSA. It's called the GOC, and the GACA
is a pretty big building. If you watch the James
Bond movie with Pierce Bronson where it starts off in Korea,
they showed the GOC, that was probably CGI, but they
showed the God because in the beginning of that particular movie,
I forget the name of it, there's a trance between

(42:01):
there's some transfer. I think he's on the I think
he is trapped in North Korea, and there's a transfer
between the South is holding a North Korean guy and
they do a.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
Trn they do a swap. So they show the GOC.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
So if you ever go back and look at that movie,
you actually see the God.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Now my point to all this is in our building,
it was like.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
This hole and you could look out. I remember I
could look out this little hole and I could see.
I could see the rear of the GOC, and one
of our checkpoints overlooks peong Yang. Very very hard to
see the city itself, but there's this long winding road
from Pyongyang that came all the way up to the gock.

(42:43):
There were just trucks and trucks and trucks and trucks
coming up that road and through that little hole.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Looking through the back of the GOC, it was like.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
A ups truck and full of soldiers getting out. We
have I told you our strength thirty five.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah, oh handful of guys.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
I forgot to mention half is Korean, half is Gi
when when everything went down, the Korean didn't come outside
to fight. Nice, Oh, we really don't have thirty five.
We have like seventeen. So all these all these Korean
soldiers a getting out of this truck and with like
a oh heck, if they decide to just attack, it's

(43:26):
going to be hundreds against seventeen. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Man, that's crazy that that you would think that something
like that would even happen. I mean, I guess in
the eighties it was a little closer to the Korean War,
but even then it was so it was pretty far removed. Yeah,
to have that kind of What did you think when
Trump walked across the border and shook hands with the
what's his name? Kim Jong un?

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Oh? I mean, I guess it could possibly be the
start of something more peaceful, you know, is it the
start of South Koreans that were captured and taken to
North Korea? I want to say with them returning, but

(44:13):
they're they're you know, you think women or something like
that that had babies, they were young enough to come
back or whatever could have been the start or something
like that.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
I mean that that's probably the best that could come
out of it.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
And they're always as long as we're in Korea, they're
still going to be the enemy.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yeah, was it was? It was it like surreal to
see someone just cross over like that, like oh crap,
like you walked across the line. Yeah, yeah, because I
mean I think if anybody understands the significance, you know,
you you would more than anyone, right.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Yeah, I mean not honestly that that's organized. You had
had the you had people to defend them in everything.
Security versus us just walking across line is a totally
different story. I would I would say that that mean
those those guards are very very young people also just

(45:07):
doing what they're told to doing in the military, but
that there aren't trained like our guys are trained at all.
That they would try to be mad because they think
they were supposed to be mad at anything on the
south side, so they try to make a mean face.
If you got close. I mean I can stand there
and I'm looking at my computer screen, I could get

(45:27):
right right up on it as long as I didn't
cross the line, and that soldier could maybe try to
spit on me. That was one of the things that
they would try to do or do nothing. You know,
it would be one or the other. But you didn't
get close because they would want to spit some of them.

(45:48):
But in terms of just being aggressive or anything that
that wouldn't in case someone make a face, but up
some of you just see so innocent, you know, they're
just they're just kids.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah. I'd be like trying to play music. See if
I get them to react like, oh yeah, he likes
that song.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
You you do something like like a maor effect, if
you do something you know, let's see yeah, because then
we had to all I So it's because you try
to make them do something. Yeah, so that would be a.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Cool spot to visit. I wouldn't mind visiting that border.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah, it's it's pretty unique to go up there and
and know that. And because they would be out when
we had tours, they're out there on their side monitoring
a tour, just just just as a show force, just
like we would do when they had had had tours.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I just saw a video there was like a British
I think it was a British guy who was touring
North Korea. Like they'll go in through China or something
like that. I think it's how they get across and
sometimes they do these tours and I'm just like, as
a Western person, I just feel like it's not worth
you know, the juice is not worth the squeeze on

(47:03):
trying to do that. I mean, how although it would
be cool to go and see what North Korea actually is, like,
there's so many ways that you can just be arrested,
and you know, especially if you're a former service member,
you know that's obviously not good. I just don't see
how people do still do. It's like it's like when

(47:25):
you hear about like, oh, there was a backpacker killed
in Afghanistan, like, no, shit, why don't you make it Afghanistan?

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Where would you go? Yeah, so going over there in
the learn in military or whatever, because then you're a
spy and it's their rules. Yeah, you're put in this
crazy prison system or whatever and no one knows it,
like you're never coming back. So life flew around with that.
What would be your goal of going over just just
to see it? You know, send me a picture. I'm good.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, definitely, that's interesting. So what did you do after Korea?

Speaker 2 (47:56):
So? After Korea, I was assigned to the Old are
so the ceremony, right, So I was there for well,
I got there in eighty eighty five and I was
just a squad ter in the patoon. That's kind of
using how you start out. They have new man training
and everything, and you know how to march and all

(48:18):
that stuff. And I was probably in at that company
for maybe about eighteen months before I went down to
the Unknown Soldier.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
And the way that works is there's three beliefs that
go by height.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
So the third leaf is five ten to's six foot
maybe six one, and then the second relief is six'
one the six three.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Ish, four and then the first relief is six' four.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
On up so depending on the height, of everybody, you
know they figure into one of those. Three Reliefs so
i'm a staff star now in the in the staff,
starsf COMMANDER so i was training to be. Leaef, commander
so if you've ever, seen it the person who comes,
out says ladies, AND gentlemen i, have attentions ladies, AND
gentlemen i have your, attention please and does all the

(49:10):
talking and inspects. The rifle that is the. Relief commander
so there's only there's one. Pervy leaf so there's only three.
Leief commanders so there's really only one job depending on.
Your HEIGHT so i was competing with another guy Now
and i'm five to, ten now like, you know barely got,
in There and i'm competing with another guy for, that

(49:34):
job and after two weeks. He quit so, You're liked,
YOU'RE like, i mean the people that are already on
the relief the, badge holders it's a kind of. Arrival
passage doesn't matter what their. Rank is they're telling you what.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
To do and if you have to go out and
go to so and so's grave, or whatever it could
be half a.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Mile away you got to run it, that grave get
information off, of it and come back as part of,
the training so you really BECOME the. I would i
always said that we were the live historians of. The
cemetery as a part of obtaining, your badge you had
to take a badge test to had one hundred questions.

(50:15):
On there you had to get a ninety, percentile rate
which usually most people get.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
One, hundred anyway because it's grilled in you all.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
These questions there's one hundred different questions and it's not,
multiple choice like you have to know, the, answer poems
all kinds.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Of things you like have to know it, All right so.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
All that's part of. The training they're going out to
the grave sites and all these, different things because part
of the test could be like where is so and,
so buried and you need to know where, they're buried
but you learn how to vary by going to the actual,
gray site not. Just knowing so you spend your off
days going to different grave sites to get knowledge, or
whatever so when, you're asked you know when the test,
comes around. You know, so anyway that the GUY that

(50:59):
i was competing with for that, one job he ended,
up QUITTING so i was kind of the, air PARENT
but i still had to go through the training, when,
like okay you can. Stop me all said to go through.
The training and then in the middle of, The training
i'm selected to go To The infantry. Advanced COURSE so
i had started there for about a month and a

(51:19):
half AND now i have to go to the.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Advanced course it's like another.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
A little more than.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
TWO months i think it's about ten it's about ten
weeks at.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
The time so Go To, fort benning, complete that then
come back to, the tomb complete, that training and then
get my, my badge And Then i'm therefore we get into.
The summer so. Live commander all he does is change.
The GUARD and i remember one of my one of,

(51:50):
my soldiers he. Did something he, you know he was,
a walker and he did SOMETHING and i corrected, the
morning which he made. It correct but there was some
there was some back talk, which, was well so you
don't know because you. Don't walk.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Whatever IT was i was telling, to, do like you
don't know what you can do because you.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Don't walk. Good point now you think about the trajector of.
The military, you know when you get to a, certain
spot you've done that, job prior so you know.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
It so you can advise.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
On it, you know all. Those things this. Was different
this job. Was different, you know you go straight to,
relief commander go straight to be in charge of. Those
people now you're aware of everything that they're doing what
they're supposed, to do.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
And, guide them, trade him lead them all.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
That stuff on that.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Particular thing but he. WAS right i had, not WALKED so.
I didn't i didn't personally and. PHYSICALLY know I just,
i KNEW but i had not gone through.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
It myself so it.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Was right first, of all you DID what, i said
the most important.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
Part right SO then i taught myself. To walk so
on off days or, at night when the cemetery, is
closed it just becomes a regular. Guard post, you know
the guy's. Just outside there's no walking back and forth
and all that is no twenty one years, out there
and then it becomes every, two hours, you know you,
go out change the guard the, same way but there's.

(53:20):
Nobody watching, you're in, you know to do the uniform
and all that as opposed to the dress. Boot uniform
so it was doing those HOURS that i taught myself how.
To walk so, that WAY when i made, a correction
it was based. ON experience, i.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Mean they get really, into, that right that's a. Huge
deal now the, Whole, ceremony like can you kind of
explain for someone that hasn't been to. SEE it i
haven't been personally to. See it can you kind of
explain kind of the tradition, behind it what their role?
IS there, i mean because that's a. Big deal it, sounds,
like uh, YOU know i mean there's so much history

(53:55):
and stuff, behind that, you know and then you're surrounded
by history LIKE and i imagine you get to you
know Obviously Like memorial day and stuff is a. Huge event. Probably,
Meet yeah so, the hours.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
The hours of the official guard Change from april First to,
september thirtieth it's every, HALF hour i get, That. Right
Yeah then october One through march, thirty first it's. Every

(54:29):
hour so in the cold, of months you're out there.
For hour the, woman months you're out there for a.
Half hour and so that's when the guard. Change happens
so on those hours and on those, half hours so
there's a guard that walks back. And forth first, OF
all i guess the unknowns that there's four of them

(54:49):
from each MAJOR war, W One world, War, Two, korea
vietnam and the person walking out side doesn't wear any
rank on their on their on their sleeve because they
can't outrank. The unknowns we don't know what their, rank

(55:12):
was because we don't know who, they were but in
order to not, outrank them they don't wear.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
A rank so they're walking back. And forth there's no
rank on, their.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Blouse so they're going back and. Forth there they'll walk
down twenty, one steps they'll TURN face dc is what.
We say they'll count to, twenty one they'll turn back toward,
the mat. Change weapons i'll change shoulders with, their weapons
walk down twenty, one steps TURN face. Dc again and

(55:41):
they're doing that the whole time that, they're walking whether
it's an hour or it's an, half hour until that guard.
Change happens and they're still walking through through a part
of the guard change to a certain part that everyone
meets in, the middle the new guard and the oak
and the one that's on, there now and they'll, switched
places and then there's some some verbo things that the
relief commander to say is for them to, actually change

(56:02):
and a new person takes. The post the belief commander
and the previous guy that was walking leave the plaza
there and then now they're new guys out there for his.
DUAL ration i would say their. Dual ration SO when i,
was there it was, all males but it's changed to.
Include females now they still have to make the cut.

(56:24):
And everything BUT so i won't, SAY him i will
say whoever the. Guard is so that's pretty much what
happens now during. Those hours so the cemetery would open
up in, THE summertime i think all hours all year it's.
At eight so those guard changes are happening from zero
eight to nineteen zeroate to nineteen hunt things generally to

(56:50):
nineteen hunt and those warmer months and then zero eight
seventeen hundred and those colder months because.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Getting darne i've seen the videos of the people getting
too close to the chains and the guard will stop and,
like dog get back from, the chin yell something. At
them so how does that does that like throw off
the routine you know? Of everything so you can go to.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
The chain.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
You can't go under the chain because now you're now
you're on the, other, side right you can go to.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
The chain now there there is. A security there's An
Our international cemetery security person that's. Out there so this
should be monitoring anyone like excessively leaning over the chain
or anything, like that or leaning to a point where
they moved the stanchion and all that type. Of stuff
so whether whether whether the guard is saying something is

(57:41):
so during during the when live commander comes out, the
chains the guard, is so ladies, AND gentlemen i have. Your.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Attention please my name is.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Statsar woman leave, commander too an, Unknown soldier, lift Commander
Third intrant. Regiment too of the. Unknown soldier there's so
many about the witness of the change out of the
guard and keeping with this ceremony is we requested everyone
may silent, and standing so that pretty much. Ends that
they may say it.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
DIFFERENTLY now i remember it changed a few TIMES when i.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Was there.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
So after that if, someone's talking because.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
They may you know me coming a few people whatever
now and you. See them so in the, summer months
you have these aviator glasses on and you bend them
so you can't see from, the side can't see our.
EYES side i, would say you get so good at
doing at doing this that you know you can. See

(58:36):
everything So as i'm giving, THAT spiell i just. SAY
it i can see if someone's. Sitting down it could
be right after it and they still haven't. Stood up then,
You know i'm trying to. Inviceing them it was requested
everyone may standing during, this ceremony so someone didn't get

(58:57):
them up to sitting beside, or whatever or or you hear,
them talking, you know then then you. Do it you
could let, it go but you know we we we
love to bust. Them out.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Change it up a, little bit it changes.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
It up so here here's a. FUNNY one. I was i,
WAS outside i was walking right and, in summertime and
this little kid he was walking, with Me and i'm walking. On,
HIM man i walked down. Twenty one he was just
he would. Just walk i'd STOP and i FACED d
CS and i was back. TO him i can't see what.

(59:32):
He's DOING and i turned, back around changed changed shoulders
with the weapon, and everything and then he tried to.
Do that AND then i walked down and he'd walk and,
you know just it was kind of funy just. Doing
it like AND what i wanted to do was like
stop or. Do, something, yeah yeah throw them off. Or
WHATEVER but, i mean he wouldn't. Bothering anything it wouldn't,

(59:52):
you know you didn't really violate anything. Or whatever so
it was kind of funny that you just wanted to
do the. Same thing so like you, let him let him. Get,
down no.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
IT'S cool i think people like the, you know ceremony
AND stuff. I own i DON'T think i personally would like,
doing it, you know having to just walk back and
forth you know. All, day yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Once you get used, to it it's, you know you
get used. To. It, it uh, you know we have
a had this thing Called the.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
Sentinels created line six is my standard will.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Remain perfection so like everything is like perfect like all.
The time there's no there's no, cutting corners there's no,
it's okay there's no. It's okay. It is it is
all about line six for every. Single thing so, so
so and that's why the training may take a little
bit longer for some. Versus others like everything has to be, you,

(01:00:47):
Know impeccable so that part of getting your badge is
not only having, that knowledge but your uniform has to be, you.
Know impeccable and then your performance out there on. The
map if you're messing up stuff out there and you
don't get outside in. One summer so it's a. GOOD
thing i taught myself how to walk because the relief
is supposed to have nine people counting, counting, me right

(01:01:10):
and we were. Way short we had, like five and
then we went to four and those during that, TIME
period i would rotate from being the relief commander or actually,
you know giving that spill and doing an inspection all that,
to walking and then my sister relief commander would change

(01:01:32):
the guard all DAY and i, would WALK or i
would change the guard all day and he would walk
in the rotation. Of walking so it was a. GOOD
thing i taught myself. To walk otherwise you would have
to walk all, the time and that's harder than change,
the guard, you know but you're on your feet like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
All day but if you're doing a rotation, of walk
at least.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
You walk. Come down you got an hour because there's
two half hours happening in between before you had to go.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Up again for the, leaf commander you got a matter of.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
A matter of minutes before you're back up again changing,
the guard because it's every. Half HOUR so i would
come DOWN and i would take OFF my i would
take off my shoes because in order to just spitch
on shoes or not pad leather shoes or court frames
and take off, my shoes take off my PANTS so

(01:02:24):
i could. SIT down. I might i might do IT for.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I might, you know go through it all for the
first two hours of, the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Day And then i'm taking my, shoes off, pants off.
SITTING down i would start out with just because you
have on your time. WHITE shirt i would start off
leaving that button up and everything, right now just, sit
down relax. A minute but relax. A minute we're talking about,
eight minutes, maybe ten because the. Guard changes this happening every.

(01:02:53):
Half hour so let's Say if i'm going up, at
noon it's over about Nine after i'm back in, the
quarters maybe ten. TO eleven.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
I get that, Stuff off i'm sitting down by.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Fourteen after.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
Everyone's yelling, quarter tail so quarter till the next.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Guard chains the next guard is getting up and getting
dressed to go fifteen minutes prior to the. Guard change
so everyone who's, not wait even if you are in,
the rotation everyone's yelling. Quarter tails that person knows who's
ever going. Up next that they just start.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Getting ready and when you're new and you have someone new.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Guys and you hear that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Quarter tail right, after that they're immediately asking for. The, walk,
Well anyway i'm sitting down RIGHT and i would wait till.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
About twenty two AFTER then i put my, PANTS on
i put my, shoes on, you know and all that
didn't get the bout and get my, jacket on and
they're they're they're. Prepping everything they, call it give you
a blouse. Or whatever eything's talking and someone's doing that.
For you get the pistol pulled in the holster and.

(01:04:11):
All that but and and, that summer because it's back
to back to back to back to back to back.
All day THAT'S what.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
I had that's what we had to do to. Catch it,
you know some type of, a.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Break take, a break cool off a little bit because
that jacket probably.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Gets hot, oh yeah it was The.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Whole yeah so when you when you go to leave
a unit, like that what's, it like because now you're
going back to the regular army and it's, not yeah,
you know it's a whole different. Mission, now yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
You know SO when I when i, LEFT there I
was I was i was promoted this on. First class
so there's only one job for, that person which is
the sergeant of, the guard AND so i want to
be a batoon sergeant and still In The. Old GUARD
and i did that job for two YEARS is i

(01:05:02):
think two years or something, like that AND then i
went back down.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
To the two manon and so tum on soldier to
be the start of.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
The GUARD so i was in charge of the whole
THING when i went down the. Second time so during
those times in ninety one and ninety three when you
turning your television and someone was there with the wreath
and the president or the vice president or whomever you
know or or you know leader from a foreign country
coming to, layer wreath and then that was me. Mm
HMM so i left there in, ninety three Then WENT

(01:05:31):
then i was Signed to HAWAII and i was, promotable
THEN so i was the first start and being assigned To.
A hawaii.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Now this is around, ninety three is that? Is that
that's after The?

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Golf?

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
War right it was? Ninety one The? Golf war what
was the golf? W? Correct yep did did so when
you were At The, old guard did you guys do
any of the funerals for anybody that was killed In The?
GOLF war i think there was only. A handful.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
So the way it works is the family makes the
decision where they want. Them buried its act and duty
one of the things that gets You. Into arrington so
it would depend upon where the family wanted. Them buried
not necessarily an automatic thing because they were they were.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Killing action it's not automatic that the family wants them
there or. The armies, you know the family, has control
so it would have been up.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
TO down i. DON'T remember i was not personally involved
in any funerals of anyone from From The.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Gulf WAR what i was involved in was in nineteen
once it eighty it was, eighty six, EIGHTY seven i
can remember EXACTUR and i shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Know that but in her first, airborne division there was
a they did some Training in egypt In the sinai
and it Was a, sinai mission and every returner from,
that mission so they flew from, from there they had
to stop, AND uh i want to say bangor Now.

(01:07:15):
Bangor maine it Was in it Was in canada and
it Was, in december. By mine the. Wings froze they
did some, d ICING but i guess it didn't work
and the. Plane crashed so those some of those survivors

(01:07:35):
were Buried, in ARLINGTON and i was the liaison between
some members of the Hundred First everyone division And Ar
international cemetery and In The old guard for. All them
and they were all buried like in one section in,
a row not the entire for those who wanted to

(01:07:57):
be Buried. IN arts i think it's, about thirteen so
they're all all in. A. ROW now i can't remember
the second off the, TOP man i can walk. THROUGH
it i don't remember. Their number.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
So that that's the only active duty SOLDIERS that i
was involved in in terms of.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
THE burial i need to get. UP there i need
to get up there And See arlingdon just that whole
area so, much history, you know it's so rich in
history and Between The, civil War The revolutionary, war everything,
you know there's so much history in. That area like
it's definitely on my list of places to.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
GO visit, i mean if you GO, to dc you
just do. It all, you know Say The, Vietnam memorial
just walk the, whole mall do that. WHOLE thing i
don't care how many times you've heard. About it and
really even if you've seen it before and have if
you've seen it before and you go back and still
still gonna have an effect. ON you, i mean you

(01:08:52):
look At That vietnam war and you sell. Those names
just think about the war? DID this i mean all.
THOSE names, i, mean yeah it's, pretty incredible. You know
but when you when you when you live there and,
work there is probably probably different. Versus, visiting.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Yeah it, becomes normal. Becomes routine, Oh yeah SO.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
When i, Go back i'll probably be honest. With you
i've probably seen the two of an unknown soldier since
leaving there in.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Ninety three i'm going to be extremely generous in.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
This response and say, five TIMES and I think i'm
being generous.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
By two that's still.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Cool, though yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
When you go back as someone that used to be
a guard there Is there do they let you tour
the facilities or is there any kind of like insider,
you know stuff that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
You, get yeah because you're a, badge holder you get to,
you know you're telling me a badge number and that
they'll let you in to look around or tour like
what are you guys? Doing now and all that type.
Of stuff so that camaraderie is. Still there so it's
pretty cool to see what they do now versus what
we did then and compare and and then make sure
they know that it was harder for us than it was.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
For them, of course, of course the previous iteration was
back in, my day this is what we had to.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Go through and you're looking. At it you're looking at
them outside on the mat. And everything you watch the
GUARD chas i got like they can. Hard candle.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
You should have seen the shoes we had. To, wear
yeah nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Like this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
That's, hilarious yeah that's how everything works because.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
They don't shine their brass anymore like that that, you
know their their things IS all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
I, don't know but they don't have to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Shine, aidized yeah it's, all antidized so it's. All, shiny yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
So how can how could it be harder? For you
how can you tell me that you're better and you
don't even have to. Do that you have to do the.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Mundane, task, yeah yeah you know In The, marine corps
when you wear your, dress blues you either have to
do all anidized or all like the. Original BRASS and
i only ever saw one guy that had the original
old school brass on and it looked. Pretty cool i'm

(01:11:08):
not gonna lie like because his medals were like because
the metals now they're all shiny because they're, they anadize
so they look super shiny all. The time but he
was this master sergeant and he had like a huge
stack of, you know of metals and stuff. Like that
and with that with like the old school look on
the metals and just the uniform with the old brass
buttons and everything or whatever they were, Made of like

(01:11:30):
it just looks super cool because you don't, see it,
you know you never see.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
It in the whole guard at, that time all. Shiner
STUFF but i think they're all they're all. Anadized now
SO so, i mean so when you when you when
you're in a military and you grow as, a leader
you start you begin to read out dumb stuff like
why we're doing this well because we always have done
it and usually ninety nine point nine percent, of time

(01:11:55):
it's time to change that thing because that's not a
reason to. Do. It right but but now that you,
mentioned This and, i'm THINKING like, i said it was
harder because you just, say that, you know we, looked
better it. Was harder blah. BLAH blah i would have,
To really i'm not going to tell, you here so,
Don't ask but you're making me, think about as a,
senior leader which ONE would? I CHOOSE would i choose

(01:12:16):
history OR would i choose? Less work and not less
work in terms of just, BEING lazy i mean just
from a perspective, of smart what else could we be
doing with this time other than spending? It SHINE so
I would i would have a very very, serious talk,

(01:12:38):
you know with myself about about. THE difference I think
i would say up in the not at, the tomb
but up in. The units, you know they're doing the
funerals and parades and ceremonies, and retirement all that type.
OF stuff i would say, for them because they have
a very busy schedule doing multiple things to include going to,

(01:13:01):
the field used to have to maintain, your infantry, you
know all that type. Of STUFF would i, would say
from a leader standpoint in making, that decision analyze because
if they're going to, DO that i can be getting
in some, Map reading i'd be getting some tactical stuff,
or whatever as opposed to cutting that tactical stuff off

(01:13:22):
or that basic infantry stuff off because you've got to
go spend this time to get ready for this. PARTICULAR
time i would clearly make that decision at. THE tone i,
DON'T know I think. I would I think i would
go with shine it because that time they're not using
that time in.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
That manner it could but like you're not going to
the field from.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
THERE now i will say THIS when i, was there
SO also i went to rang school from THE tone
i told you when as the reef commander, came back
went through that SUMMER that i was telling. You about
then in the fall of, THAT year i went to.
Regular school so that was another back when it, was
hard but most. Definitely school and that was ANOTHER like

(01:14:12):
i Left, the november came Back, in january and then,
you know went back to the tomb AND then i
was only there for like. Five months, i'm promotable AND
then i went to go be a Patuone sarm, SO
uh I guess i want you to know that had
nothing to do with still shine. Your stuff so oh.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
On, my, POINT theah, i mean it, work smarter. Not harder,
you know it, works smarter. Not harder and the thing
too is like if you're not doing stuff, like that
and a lot of times those those kind of tasks
are being done in people's, off time, you know or
time that things should. Be relaxing so it's kind of
nice that you give them some actual, free time because
that's what people some people need is some actual. Free

(01:14:52):
time there is a there is a certain, point where,
you know the pomp and circumstance of, the military the
traditional whatever, it is. Should hold but after, a while
some of the rules are. Just dumb i'm just the
hands and pockets is my. Biggest. One dumb don't who

(01:15:14):
cares put your hands in? Your pockets the For The,
marine corps they want you to get a haircut, every.
Week dumb you know. Ten days, you know if it's
ten days in the you. Say that in the, civilian
world people are like. Ten days that's that's even kind
of fastened the civilian world And The. Marine corps, that's
like how? Dare you how dare you disrespect chesty pull

(01:15:34):
er by joining by coming in and not getting your
haircut fresh Haircut every? Monday morning how? Dare?

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
You yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Way MAN when i was a staff sergeant AND when
i had a Team, At anglico, i'm, like dude just
don't have certain. Major comeing ask me why you guys don't?
Have haircuts, you know like keep, it, cleaned up, keep it,
you know be reasonable. With it time and place if,
you know we have a ceremony or something that we have,
to do get, a haircut, you know time. And place
like the more you help me stay out of the

(01:16:03):
more you stay out, of trouble THE more i can help,
you with like time off. And things, you know it
pays to be, an adult to act like an adult and.
Stuff like there are rules, and regulations but, YOU know
i try to. BE fla i tried. To stay, you
know the military is now very much, like others should be,
more STAFF en coo and officer presence in, the barracks,

(01:16:25):
you know to see what's, going on to make sure
there's good order. And DISCIPLINE and i was kind of,
the opposite you know again as, a team as a
team Chief, AT anglico i, was, LIKE dude i don't
want to know what you're doing in. The barracks, you
know the sergeant should be taken care, of that and
the corporal should be taken care. Of that and as
long as you guys are like cleaning your rooms and,

(01:16:46):
taking again if they just decide to do a, surprise
inspection as long as you guys there's, no issues then there's.
No issues but if you guys can't maintain yourself like,
an ADULT then I mean i can treat you like.
A child, that's Possible but i'd, rather not, you know
because it sucks. For everybody so. It's different there's it

(01:17:07):
was Easy because i'm talking about a team of like.
Fifteen people now to try to expand that kind of
thought process to like a battalion or, a regiment, you
know it makes it a little harder because there's a
lot more knuckleheads in a battalion. Or regiment that ruined it, for, Everyone, right,

(01:17:28):
Yeah YEAH so.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
I think some of the if you go way back
my time, come military it was the obviously want your
area stuff to. Be clean you want the common areas to.
Be clean, you know you get you get society joins.
The military that's you joins. The military, you know summer
is straight and you know their parents made him keep
everything straight, at home and some are just straight. Up

(01:17:52):
slops so you can't. Allow that, you know that's not
good order. And discipline so a lot of that stuff
is there for, you know it helps facilitate good order,
and discipline and then the end result is something that's
clean an area that's clean and all those type of
things you make people. MAINTAIN that i would say that

(01:18:15):
going back and looking at it from the very beginning of,
coming in that that it substantiated that as you. Go on,
you know like some, places now especially, common area they're
paying some civilian to do, that stuff which. Makes sense
it goes back to Certain areas, I'm, saying okay like
like not necessarily in, the barracks but like maybe in

(01:18:36):
the headquarters now where soldiers.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
Did that civilians are, do that you Know what. I'm
saying but back in, the day soldiers.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
Did that that was. A detail so it's a. LITTLE
bit i think In The.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
MARINE corps i Think the marines they still. Make them
the only thing that civilians do will like mow. And, stuff,
well YEAH when i first, came IN when i ACTUALLY
when i first, came in that was like if you,
got in if you got a non, judicial punishment that was.
A punishment that was like your extra judicial punishment. Or
whatever your extra work that you had to do was

(01:19:08):
mow the, battalion area, You know and there'd always be
three or four of those guys that were on restriction
in the barracks that had to do extra duties, every
day and that's what. They did they CLEANED the cp
and they they would bow and everything. Like that and
Then At Camp, la june we also you would see
at least once, A week i'd be coming into work

(01:19:30):
and they would take all the brig marines out and
put them online and do a giant police call from
the main gate all the way through the base to
the traffic circle there and they would be doing like landscaping.
And stuff and then all that went away and now
we pay civilian contractors to. Do IT and i think

(01:19:51):
the brig marines that were doing it. The ones so
for those that don't know what to, brig is they're
the ones that are. In jail they got in trouble.
For something and, THE people i think the ones that
did it were ones that were jail for like a.
Short time they did, something stupid probably popped on a
piss test or, you know something. Like that they weren't
like murderers and rapists, and stuff but that was one of.
Their PUNISHMENTS and i don't know why they stopped doing
that because it seems like such, a better, you know

(01:20:14):
way to you're not. Spending money how much does it
cost to pay a CONTRACTOR to, I, mean god what
a good deal for the contractor to get a bid
to mow the. Entire base, you know you're the you're.
The man that's a lot. OF money.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
I think i think as the military has evolved from
a man power perspective and in whichever way it, has gone, you,
know downside up sides, or whatever that obviously someone else
is doing some of. These things you get to focus
on what you came in in, military for, which is,
you know fight our, nations wars so you get to

(01:20:50):
spend more time doing some of those things versus.

Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
Other stuff so it should have evolved. Like that, YOU
know i grew up in the one where we're.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
GOING everything i, TOLD you i spent all my time
OF when i could Have graduated airborne school doing the
chain gang of cleaning All Of, fort bennett like for,
you know five weeks. Or, Whatever RIGHT so I mean
i grew up the, very BEGINNING so i know exactly how,
it was and throughout my career. It was it was

(01:21:20):
done the, same way, you know from a discipline standpoint
of extra duty, or whatever where people were. DOING that
i think in the end it graduated moved away from
them necessarily having to.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
Cut glass, you know all it takes of one person
get hurt with alamo.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Or whatever. They, SAY okay i told you aren't doing,
that ANYMORE but i think, near that near, the end
someone else is probably cutting, the grass, which, meant okay
now you got to think something else for people to do.
In extracduty, BUT yeah i mean as you as you
because as the, military evolved as as, leaders evolved as,

(01:21:55):
an individual and you, move up you realize some things
makes sense to do and some things just don't make
sense to. Do anymore you don't just keep doing this
because that's the way it's always been done.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
For, sure, yeah yeah now that's the that's the, birth. Mindset,
right yeah let's. Jump forward you were In during, september? Eleventh?
Correct correct and what was that LIKE for, i mean
where were, you at what unit were, you at what
base were? You at and what was the reaction to
that in? Real?

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Time YEAH so i wasn't her first every. ONE division
i Was A Great Brigade COMBAT team sarw major in The.
FIRST brigade i had been at that job for about,
FIVE months. I believe prior, TO that i was A
Battalion sarm major in the. Same brigade So now i'm
at the BRIG level o, sixth level and that morning

(01:22:48):
we had did a what's called a first. Arm run
so the division commander would do a run with every
first ar on. The. Installation uh he would lead the
run and at the end of the run he said
a few words and then they won't go do personal
hygiene and then meet. For breakfast then it was the first.

Speaker 3 (01:23:09):
Arm breakfast immate.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
Followed that that's.

Speaker 3 (01:23:10):
WHAT happened i think they probably did this every month or,
EVERY quarter i. Can REMEMBER and i was the Acting
division sarm major Because the.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
Arm major was, on LEAVE so i accompanied. That run
so they finished, the run everybody went back to do.
Personal HYGIENE so i. FINISHED showering i remember. MY office
i remember having one my, pants on have one, boot
on and next door was the. Commander's office now he,
wasn't there but the executive officer was in there and

(01:23:40):
the television was on and, he, Said, sorry major come,
over here and you got to. See THIS so i hop.
In there, you know, one boot one boot off from caring,
another Boot and i'm hopping over THERE and.

Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
I looked, he said look. At this so by that
the first plane hit the, first tower, you know and.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
It's smoking and it wasn't a matter of seconds before
the second plane, comes in, AND like I mean i
saw that as many, people, did right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
And because at, THAT time, i, said oh this is
a movie like it like it had.

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
To be and it's, like no look down at the
bottom and IT. Says cnn, you know so we're just
like in shot because the first one, there was, you
know the town was. Already smoking so, you, think okay
like what pilot was flying so low and like? What happened?
You know, but, yeah, second yeah but the, second, one

(01:24:36):
okay there's not two potts that? Did that uh the
lost control, or whatever and you know it's your mouth just,
wide open like what what is? Going ON like i
don't think it dawned and meediate that that we were
being ATTACKED and i was, running BEHIND so i had
to go make it to, this, Breakfast RIGHT so i

(01:24:59):
get there and some people had heard. About it most
had not heard, about it but some. People had and
the thing that everyone came in and got. The breakfast
they set in us one room and waiting for the
command to come and and, you know he would talk.
While eating it's kind of a, working breakfast if. You
will but, he's not, he's late and then he's late,

(01:25:20):
and uh and he finally comes there and then now
there's news reports going on that, you know, of course
you know, the year so he still won't advanced that
everybody had a cell phone for the most part, or
whatever but in terms of it having the inmate in,
that capacity not.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
So, MUCH yeah i definitely, know smartphones right. Two thousand
so he.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):
Comes in and he, you know, tells us, you know
everything that, he knows and he's late because he's getting
updates from the, you know From the pentagon. And everything
and at, THAT particular i can't remember. The timeline now
full chem Was on, central time so you know by
that time that the gun had been hit, as well

(01:26:02):
so they're, you know they're they're going through that while
instruction for the rest of the armies coming out at the.
Same time and so, you know THAT'S what. I was
that's what happened with the MPs were taken off the
gates and the intry brigades were putting their soldiers on,
the gates took out to installation immediately one hundred percent

(01:26:27):
check of all vehicles. COMING in I remember i probably
stayed on on base for like. Two, DAYS yeah i,
was SINGLE so i would see in my office anyway,
sometimes whenever late nights and all that type of stuff
showered their eight they're all. That stuff so that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:44):
Wasn't anything new.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
For me but, our soldiers because we had taken over
security of the, entire installation each brigade had certain gates and.
CERTAIN areas i remember us. Pulling up We had toba
tunes familiar with with a toe. Weapons system we have

(01:27:06):
infantry soldiers. Guarding schools, you know students are out, of
school but we're guarding the schools and you.

Speaker 3 (01:27:12):
Got to toe vehicles sitting there with their toe.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
Facing out to the, You know clarksville.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
In the neighboring.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Town, there yeah, it was. It was it was. Pretty,
crazy yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:29):
What a crazy time to. Be in and then everything
just kind of ramped up, after, That.

Speaker 2 (01:27:33):
Right yeah as we got closer to knowing who the
enemy was and what we're going to do. About it
we thought we were all Going to afghanistan and we're ready,
to go and then we, Learned, that okay we're. Not
going our gates, not going but another gate's, going right
and we're going INTO a rtc with your joint read

(01:27:54):
in this train and center the train the train like.
You're ready What is it's a? Constellation prize like what
they because. Let's crack so we go there to train,
and everything, you know with the whole Motors. Of, aranda
okay maybe as soon as this, is over then we'll Go,
to afghanistan, you know and, we didn't so that other
brigade goes and then they. Come back obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:28:16):
Training continues, you know we're packed and ready to, go
someplace but we.

Speaker 2 (01:28:22):
Never go so obviously we get into, twenty two our
brigade commander changes to get a, new commander still with
the whole goal of. Going someplace. You know THEN then i,
rack happens.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
So then the workup happens for that you guys get.
Sent over how long were You in kuwait before? The
INVASION so.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
I REMEMBER getting i want, to say the notification, came
out remember being on the News that hunter first was deploying,
over there and then we got to go to the,
rail head get all our, stuff loaded go through all.
That process imember we were starting at it started snowing

(01:29:09):
like a good Snow.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
In north Carolina. Or, tennessee yeah it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
Was a, GOOD snow i mean like, a foot a
good a good foot and, some change like the whole
process of getting all that stuff onto the ontil the
rail head and it was all.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
In snow just a cherry on top of the. Whole,
situation yeah so.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
We'd have to go. To uh some Left. Late february
most left like the first few Days. OF march I
think i left like the Second of march to Go.
To kuwait and then we were all this a Place Called,
camp pennsylvania which is the intermediate stage, and base and
we we took over that particular camp from. Another brigade

(01:29:51):
there Was, third Brigade, first brigade THIRD I d and
then they were in, the tanker so they moved out
closer to the border and we took over.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
Your camp then they were kind of pissed. About that
so the show is how pissed off.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
They were they took the like the portage on toilet
seats on, the portage they took a lot of the. Toilet.
Seats wow, really yeah they were man as if we
said get out, of here this Is our that. Wasn't
artist and that was at the headquarters higher. THAN us,
i mean like they had to, move out so they

(01:30:28):
took the toilet seats.

Speaker 1 (01:30:29):
Off the, portagohn's yeah. THAT'S hilarious, I mean i. Guess
what it's kind of a childish thing. To do but
what are you?

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Gonna do? You, KNOW right.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
I want to, keep GOING but i want to stop
for a SECOND because i think your. SCREEN froze i
don't know if it's just on my end. Or, not
oh there. It goes now. It's good as soon AS
obviously i. Won't Stop then i'm gonna. Keep, going okay,
you know and let's talk about you this insider attack,
that occurred tell. US all, I mean i remember hearing.

(01:31:02):
ABOUT this i remember because when the war, FIRST started
i was a senior in high School when september, eleventh
HAPPENED and i went to the recruiter, that week and,
then obviously for those that, don't know it took me
a little while to actually. GET in i didn't join
until a few. Years later well in, this timeframe, you
know The whole iraq build up and then a. DEPLOYMENT
happened i was like intently watching the NEWS because i

(01:31:24):
was actively trying to get in. The military at, the
TIME and i remember hearing about this insider attack on,
the news AND then i GUESS it's i guess it's
not as well KNOWN as, i thought MAYBE because i
remember it from, The TIME but, i mean do you
talk to very many people that know what you're? Talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Had no idea the Other ten and like, YOU said,
I remember i remember hearing something. About this so if
they were in a military during, that time it STILL
is i remember something. Like, THIS well i was in
part Of our iraq. Or whatever this, all depends so most.
Don't know so it's we have been there about. Three

(01:32:08):
weeks so Now it's march, twenty second two thousand, and
three and we were putting the final touches on our
orders to Invade. The rock this Is, A saturday so
at that, particular time we were being told that we
were going to cross the border Into our iraq On.

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):
A thursday some are going to air assault in and
the rest are going to be a ground.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
AsSalt convoy so that's about five, days, Away right but
there was no there was no other information coming and
we would adjust the plan accordingly if they're worry more,
Information coming but pretty much the planning park was pretty
much come to.

Speaker 3 (01:32:50):
An end, you, know fragles we.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
Make adjustments so the commander had gone to bed like
ten o'clock. That night that was the, early year going
to bed for the whole twenty. Some days we had
been there the previous year that was there had a
television and. Our TENT so i set up in until
me meet a commander and the. Executive OFFICER so i

(01:33:15):
figured out how To get. American golf i'm a big
time golfer and Big Time tiger, woods FAN so i
figured out how to Get an.

Speaker 3 (01:33:21):
American golf and.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
SO my i had watched and this was the during
the time Of The Arnold palmer, invitational tournament AND so
i watched It on. THURSDAY night i started Watching on
friday night and fell asleep in the chair in FRONT.
Of tv so now. It's SORRY so i had gone
to the little shop at that we just had a
brand new shop at and some stuff had my. Little
snacks our animal just came in. That day so my

(01:33:48):
driver bought ME my ammo and had my. Laptop open
i'm doing setting up my. Bill pay so my whole
night was going to be eat, some Snacks watch tiger.
Play golf little magazines do some. Bill play so it
creeps into the. Next day Now, it's march early in.

(01:34:09):
The morning and so did these, you know it was.
Tempered tents there was there was a and you had that,
little vestibule but there's a flat once you come through,
that vestibule and then wind were blow and it would
move that FLAT and i would just hear it scraped
against the.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
Wooden floor.

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
So.

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
THAT happened i kind of looked over, And, nothing okay
it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
The wind then it. Happened Again and i'm sitting at
the end of. This table television is about five four
and a half five feet to my to my, right
Flank but i'm at the end of, the TABLE so
i can see. THE floor i can, see that, you
know right beyond. MY table i can see the tent

(01:34:52):
what comes all the way down into. The FLOOR and
i see, these SPARKS and i say that we're in
to land him not, Quite right and that's a not
quite right grenade that's sparking before. It EXPLODES so i
jump up executive offices on the other side of the
table so he can SEE what, i SEE and i

(01:35:13):
know he could take care of himself with the commander
in the back of the tent sleep and he didn't
know what's. Going on so at, my table at that
table there there was a, fluorescent light, you know bright.
His day right by THE time i run to the
back of the tent to wake up, the commander it's
picture dark in, a tent like you can't. See ANYTHING

(01:35:34):
and i wake, him, up, say hey there's a grenade
about to go off. Up front we gotta get. Out here,
of course he didn't know what's, going on like a mill, of,
sleep right to get your. Boots on we, gotta go and,
you know everything's happened really. Really fast so he gets
his boots on, and said and then someone count. The
three i'm gonna run right down the mill of the
count rate take. OFF running i make it outside a

(01:35:56):
tent and he's, not There and i'm calling for him
and hushed tones and, You know i'm. NOT hey i,
was like because obviously that was a grenade. Coming in
we're into some type, of attack and and he's. Not
there AND then i hear a GUNSHOT and i know

(01:36:19):
IT'S the xo BECAUSE when i ran through the tent through,
THE vestibule i could feel that someone was in the
tent and the only person that was up front WAS.
The xo SO when i hear that gun shot, AND
yell i know. IT'S him.

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):
I pull out, my weapon attempt to, cock it and
and as a magazine, in there but it DOESN'T, have ammo,
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
SO when i try to, cock it the nine miliman
deces the magazine keeps the bolt to the rear because
THERE'S no ammo instead of.

Speaker 3 (01:37:01):
So That now, i'm, Useless right still don't know what the,
commander is.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
You know they say they don't bring a knife to,
a gunfight where you don't bring a WEAPON no ammo
to a, Gunfight either but that's.

Speaker 3 (01:37:15):
Even WORSE all i can do is. Throw IT so
i run to, THE top i GET.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
SOME ammo i get asked running there asking for an
im for ammunition, and knobs so lot someone's. GETTING that
i take two guys and put them down in a
prone to secure that door and do the same thing
through it throughout. The top they finally give ME that
ammo and nods and weapon. AND everything i go back
out to my tent to find the commander and, executive

(01:37:42):
also but they're, not there. You know at the, same
time still trying to you know find this ENEMY and
i don't, see either and there's no one. Else outside
so go back to. THE talk i summon someone to.

Speaker 3 (01:37:58):
Go To my it was sending my tent to look
for those TWO while i look for.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
The enemy BECAUSE when i went out there like there's no,
ONE there I can't i can't do both and we
need to combat. THIS enemy i send some one to
look for THEM while i look for. The ENEMY then
i get it and because no one was, OUT there
i get on the RADIO and i call one of
the UNITS and, i say send me a squad over
in the sending at. The, top no make it up
a two to help with. The search and then someone

(01:38:25):
comes on the radio, and says do you NEED. AN fla, i,
SAID yeah i know one. Person's injured we NEED. An
fla decenting at, THE top i go back out.

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
And now i'm starting to see a couple, of people
and someone, asked, me so maybe what's?

Speaker 2 (01:38:41):
Going ON so i. Don't Know major romain was.

Speaker 3 (01:38:43):
Shot and then, he, says well So Has captain severer.

Speaker 2 (01:38:47):
Bench shot so in that time and the Reason the
cananitor didn't make it out of the tent was a
fragm name was thrown into the tent and knocked him
back into his. Sleeping area the first grenade it, came
into but sparking was in the centinary grenade that started. A,

(01:39:09):
FIRE no i didn't wait for.

Speaker 3 (01:39:11):
Sparks, the mint and YOU know i saw this parker
got up to go back to get.

Speaker 2 (01:39:15):
HIM out a second frag grenade had been thrown to the,
second tent a third grand frag grenade had been thrown
into the, third tent and now a second. Person shot
all that happened, that quickly but we have no sign of.
An enemy so this huge triodge begins to, you know

(01:39:41):
the trios, are casualties just mass casualties in the second
tent and mass casualties in the.

Speaker 3 (01:39:48):
Third tent so in the, second tent they had started
to get.

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
Up from after hearing your gunshot an explosion in the,
first tent so they started to. Stand up lord grenade
explodes at a fifteen degre, Three radius so if you're
at fourteen degrees, or below then you're. Pretty safe anything
above that you're going to.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Get HIT and i.

Speaker 2 (01:40:11):
Said it exploded, at FIFTEEN and i say you need
to be below fourteen because one person in the second
tent when the grenade, did explode, you.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
Know he was still laying down and he got shrapnel in.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
His feet so that's that's a fine line of fourteen
and fifteen and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:32):
Explosion, radius yeah you don't want to test the numbers on.

Speaker 2 (01:40:35):
That, one. Yeah yeah but a few people have started
to stand up and they caught a lot of a lot.
Of shrapnel like one in the end had eighty three
grenade shrapnel holes in. His. Body. Wow yeah in the
third tent, they had.

Speaker 3 (01:40:55):
They had begin to get up and some of them
started coming out of.

Speaker 2 (01:40:58):
The tent one of them was shot point blank in.
The back others made, it out and one of them
before the grenade exploded in, the tent he was on his,
way out realized he didn't have, his ammunition went back to,
get it and when he started to come back out,
the tent that's when that. Grenade exploded in that, third

(01:41:20):
tenth he was seventeen inches away from. The. Grenade damn
as well as others in there got hit with trapper from.
That grenade so this huge.

Speaker 1 (01:41:31):
Is just the one that had like is just the
one that had like seventy pieces of trapping. Or whatever
that's a different tent or was this a, different guy.

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
Different tent. Different, guy. Yeah wow so because the second
tin had THAT person i have mentioned and several other
people in there and there that ended up being the.
Trioge point so we were someone took charge of that
to treat the casualties and, triage them letters FROM the

(01:41:58):
fla and getting, them evacuated put them TO the fla
and taking to the.

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):
Aide station that was on. The camp all this is
going on while we're still looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:42:08):
The Enemy so i'm taking people as they're, coming out
they're going. To Bunkers the siben's going off for the
drill for the. Scut alert. You know the part of
the drill is they go to. The bunkers other thans
are coming out and they're putting them on the perimeter
that that we have and creating the perimeter. Protect ourselves so,

(01:42:29):
THIS camp i, tell people was like ten football, fields
big but it's probably bigger, than that and our our
headquarters is right in. The middle then they called it
it was they called. Them paths it's, different paths. Seven
paths they were like right in the middle and then
around us is the other, YOU know I think we're
probably five thousand people in. That camp all the rest

(01:42:51):
of our souls are, around us but on. Our perimeter
so we were in our perimeter and we're. Facing out
we're facing out against who our.

Speaker 3 (01:43:01):
Own people so that's happening while we're actively searching the
area for.

Speaker 2 (01:43:08):
IN searches i go back in the talk, and say
something had, To change something had to changing this, camp
overnight we being for all, these nights nothing even nothing,
like this it was even close. TO happening i had
gone out to the, guard towers, you know previous nights
before to check on to make sure they're doing all the. Right,
things now, this camp as large as, it is it

(01:43:32):
still has a a, a wall a twelve foot sand
wall incline that someone would have to try to, get
over and then it was constantined whire. Above that but
you know it's saying you're gonna sink if you're trying

(01:43:52):
to come up that and it's on. A, Slant yeah, i'm,
thinking like how did they get? In HERE because i
had checked the guards and they were doing all the.
Right thing the only way that could happen is if they.
Fell ASLEEP so, I asked i say to something that's changing.
This camp And then i'm told that interpreters came in,
you know the, night before, you, know earlier and what

(01:44:13):
has to be there because that's the only change to.
The camp so, we search they, Find them they have
them on, the ground hands behind, their back.

Speaker 3 (01:44:26):
Rifles at.

Speaker 2 (01:44:26):
Their head we get them in a room and terrogate
them just to learn that it's. Not damn they have
nothing to do. With it they're just.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
Scared, shitless yeah welcome to, the team by, The, way
yeah because they just got there. Right right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:41):
So the search goes back to, the insurgents and, You
know i'd say that if these guys can come, in here,
create it create all this devastation and leave no sign.

Speaker 3 (01:44:57):
Like we're going to get annihilated when we cross.

Speaker 2 (01:44:59):
The board like our intel on, their capabilities on their,
fighting capabilities we didn't know this. At all so we're
Gonna get we're gonna get annihilated across. The border so
casualties are at the local.

Speaker 3 (01:45:17):
Age station a matter, of fact helicopter comes in.

Speaker 2 (01:45:20):
And lands some casualties are loaded onto that helicopter lifts
off to take the one minute flight to the combat.
Support hospital THE cash i mean maybe it's not even.
One minute it's. That close second, helicopter lands they begin
to load casualties, onto there a huge fireball explodes in.

(01:45:47):
The sky so now we're thinking it's a coordinator attack
because that has to be. A scud and what Happened
the patriot battery even though it was a sign to
vision on their radar that could spot this fast moving
object in the sky and they shoot, you down but

(01:46:08):
it ends up Being Or british tornado fighter jet returning
front of. The, oops yeah so the two two man?
Cubs dead oh it? Killed them?

Speaker 1 (01:46:22):
Oh damn did an? Eject?

Speaker 2 (01:46:25):
One one they didn't have because they, were RETURNING so, i,
WOULD man i. DON'T know i can't, answer that, bottom liney,
bottom line. They didn't i'm sure that thing was on
him so fast that they haven't, you know couldn't pick
it up on. The. Radar one not to mention your
fine over, friendly territory you're not expecting that. To happen

(01:46:48):
not not that their rich couldn't couldn't, do that, but
yeah but answer your question though didn't eject not damn,
THE way.

Speaker 1 (01:46:56):
I feel bad for making.

Speaker 2 (01:46:57):
The joke.

Speaker 1 (01:47:00):
How did you find?

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):
The? Guy yeah so after. That, explosion again we think
it's a coordinator attack from the air in. The ground
the interpreters are. Ruled out so the commander after him
being hit with, the yeah two pieces of strapler, from

(01:47:22):
grenade but, you know concuss, from that he had gone
into the second tent to help, treat casualties and THAT'S
why i couldn't. Find him but he orders us to get.
Accountability personnel that call goes over the radio and then
we learned that one person is missing a sorting odbar

(01:47:46):
saw our. Grenades ammunition so he becomes. Our suspect our
intelligence officer. Was checking he had been going around the bunkers,
all night checking, on people giving him some instruction, and
everything walking around with his pistol in. His hand so
after we learned that, it's oddbar we kind of come
out of the. Tent together he goes. ONE way i.

(01:48:08):
GO another i go to our leaders and tell them
that who we're, looking for and, YOU know i get,
the response you mean this one of. Our own you
know that that's what. We think, right now you figure
out how you're gonna tell your some boring the status you're,
gonna have, you know frimly, fire incident likely wearing the,
same thing more wear it LOOKS, like us talks, like

(01:48:30):
us all those types. Of things you figure out what
you're gonna tell your soldiers in terms of how you're
gonna combat that and. Catch them.

Speaker 3 (01:48:39):
So the Intel Officer major warren realizes when it comes
out that there was a bunker he hadn't gone to.
All night so he goes toward, that bunker and what
he had.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
Done all night was say who do we? Have here
do you approach?

Speaker 3 (01:48:51):
The bunker so he does the same thing and the
response is saw.

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):
A nockbar so lockbar didn't know we're looking, for him
so he hosts, his weapon so then appear to be,
a threat.

Speaker 3 (01:49:01):
Keeps walking there's another person in.

Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
The bunker, with ockbar and that person, identifies himself keeps
walking and finds a way to get behind the ockebar
and take. Him down, you know it's kind of elements
surprised to know we're looking, for him and that's how.
He's apprehended.

Speaker 3 (01:49:17):
And then ask.

Speaker 2 (01:49:19):
It wasn't even did you? DO this i think someone did.
Ask that there wasn't a response. To that, you know
he searchs. Flex scuffed someone hands me his weapon in
between that and taking the time they go get my

(01:49:40):
GEAR and amo. And everything AND when i came out
OF when i went into, MY tent i learned that
my whole ear was that was all, blown out like
trapping the holes all over. The AREA so i had
not Been Watching tiger woods, play GOLF that i wouldn't
be talking to you. Right now So now i'm pissed

(01:50:01):
OFF because i KNOW had i, been asleep i'd be.
Dead YEA and i want to do something this dude
try to. Kill ME so i come back out of
Tent and i'm going over in the city where they,
have them And like i'm going to. DO something i
don't know what. It is i'm going to. Do something
AND as i, get READY as i get closer to
HIM than i have people running up like they're like

(01:50:22):
they're trying to get to. Him NOW so i spend
my time with holding him back and like going to
you blew. My planet whatever my plan has, to, do
right they. Blew it so someone has me. HIS weapon
i smell his weapon to see if it'd been, recently
fired and. IT had i KNEW when i went to
my tent there was a piece of brass THERE and

(01:50:44):
i knew that if that brass came from, this weapon
THEN the dodic those numbers. Would MATCH so i put
the weapon.

Speaker 3 (01:50:52):
ON safe i didn't clear clear IT because i didn't
want to DISTURB.

Speaker 2 (01:50:55):
The ammo if, IT matched i wanted. THAT matched i
didn't want to. Disturb THAT so i took him back
over to that piece of brass and asked someone to.
Guard it said don't you Leave until i'm only putting.
That relieving that guy ended up being there for like.
Twelve hours so.

Speaker 3 (01:51:14):
And then he when the, guy said what sarmaders also.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
Some grenades so what he did he was on guard dude,
At NIGHT like, I said ammo just. Came in you
know That the tinian Commandity decided i'm going to GUARD
my ammo and then.

Speaker 3 (01:51:26):
Issued out during the daylight instead of being.

Speaker 2 (01:51:30):
The dark.

Speaker 3 (01:51:32):
So he was on guard AT.

Speaker 2 (01:51:33):
The ammo him and. Another guy he, had told, you know,
his soldier you go ahead and go. To sleep i'll
take it for the next few minutes until the. Relief
comes and what he did was starting over UP, the
ammo take out, you know five five six. In grenades
he threw out his protect the mask, you know to,

(01:51:53):
the side put the grenades and protect. The masks now.
Get this, he comes he walks three hundred meters inside
the camp over to the head course where the headquarters,
people are people are working to top call, all that
not the eight hundred people in, his unit it would
have been. Easier pickings he comes all the way over

(01:52:17):
there to. Attack, us yeah so still still a part of.
The unit if that's the, head, course.

Speaker 1 (01:52:23):
Right he's trying to go for, bigger, TARGETS right, i
say because what was a? Lieutenant? Colonel right WAS? The
ceo or is it a work?

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
Full? Berg, yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
Yeah so if he would have killed a full, WORD
colonel i mean that would have been it was already a,
big deal but that would have been. Even, bigger yeah
nobody cares about. Starting major that's the guy that makes us.
Kind haircuts so can't put our hands in, our pockets right?

Speaker 2 (01:52:47):
Right, shave, yeah yeah. It was so the mindset was
tending out. The head the body. Will follow the head was.
The headquarters the body was was the, whole demeanor attitude
and everything of the. Entire command.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
So what happened to?

Speaker 2 (01:53:07):
That guy so, you know, AGAIN apprehended cid, comes up
they take. Him away the trial happens two.

Speaker 3 (01:53:17):
Years later.

Speaker 1 (01:53:20):
They take him away and you guys go off and do, an, invasion,
right yeah so they take.

Speaker 2 (01:53:23):
Him away. You know now now It's early. Sunday Morning into.
Sunday morning we learned that the person who was shot
point blank in the. Back died we have a memorial
service the next Day, that monday, for him and then
the next Day, that tuesday we are everything everything. Moved

(01:53:44):
up now we're Headed into iraq Zero that.

Speaker 3 (01:53:49):
Tuesday morning that was the best thing that happened to
us was leaving.

Speaker 2 (01:53:52):
That.

Speaker 1 (01:53:52):
Camp, yeah well, you know you know as WELL as.
I do you get enough Like, junior marines junior soldiers,
and stuff sitting around on a camp with not a lot.
To do, you know you can only do so much
training and prepping and stuff. Like that a lot of
mischievous activities start, to happen, you know if you don't

(01:54:14):
have activities for them. To do, but man, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:54:20):
That's, crazy yeah instead of going instead of, you know actually,
curricular activities. It was, you know we're into that day after,
the attack, you know, hours later AND see i details
take everything out of their tents, and everything and everyone's.
Sitting alone the people occupy the tents that, they work,

(01:54:43):
not wounded they're just sitting there grieving to the point
where we can't go fight. A war now we haven't
been told that we're going to be leaving really. Than
anticipated but it didn't, even matter like their demeanor couldn't
go fight. A WAR so, i, say, like everybody get out.

(01:55:04):
OF here i don't care where. YOU go i know
you GOTTA grieve i, get that but you're not going
to do. It here find someplace else on. This camp go,
someplace else get out of my sight and go. Do
that BECAUSE what i saw was a group of people
it was far from being capable of.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
Fighting war that's crazy, to, think right that that would
that's something that would break them apart.

Speaker 2 (01:55:31):
Like, THAT well, i mean, in retrospect it is wait,
a minute one of our own soldiers killed our. Own,
people yeah how do you they were prayed to digest
that they've been pared across the border and, Do that
but one of our own people that that wasn't supposed
to be. The, war yeah for how? Do you how

(01:55:56):
do you?

Speaker 1 (01:55:56):
Process that was this guy a? Troublemaker before was he
known in the unit or anything? Like that or was
this kind of out of.

Speaker 2 (01:56:03):
The blue so he, was not, you know the most
the best. Performing soldier there was some, discipline problems, production
problems and all that he's still, a sergeant had not
been demoted, from sergeant was not performing the duties of.
A sergeant but what had not.

Speaker 3 (01:56:22):
Been demoted he had those things, Going on BUT had
i could have pointed out Another hundred so it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:30):
Had the.

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
Same making everybody had some kind of issues, going, On
right so but what we.

Speaker 2 (01:56:35):
Didn't know now. We learned we learned in the trial two.
Years later after we know we left two days later across.
The border did the war came back in two thousand,
And four but we learned at the trial in two
thousand and five and after we. Did Here because i've
never want to mess, This up so this word we
learned at. The trial in nineteen, ninety three he wrote in,

(01:56:57):
HIS diary i do not like the military then too
much control over. PEOPLE'S lives I suppose i'm just anti
Government and muslims should see himself As a muslim only
his loyalty should Be. To. Islam ONLY now i want
to point out that religion doesn't pull. A trigger. People
do nineteen, ninety six, he writes anyone who stands in

(01:57:20):
front of me shall be considered the enemy and dealt.
With accordingly nineteen, ninety six, he Writes destroying america was
my plan as a child and as a juvenile and.
In college my life will not be Complete unless america.
Is Destroyed destroying america is my. Greatest goal nineteen, ninety
eight he joins. Their army so you see where we're going. With,

(01:57:44):
this Yeah in fedward two thousand, and Three maybra Now
it's march two thousand, and Three, so february before we
actually Go to Kuwait, for iraq, He writes i'm not
going to do anything as LONG as i, stay here
stay here with. Four knir but as SOON as i
but as SOON as i Am, IN iraq i am

(01:58:05):
going to try to kill as many of them. As
possible so this, is premeditative based on his beliefs To.
Destroy america so had nothing to do with his performance as.
A soldier he had planned even before he joined the

(01:58:26):
military to do his part In, destroying america and to
start that off happened to be trying to kill as
many of us. As POSSIBLE and i would, Say point
i'm sorry to give you this, particular note the person
who had the eighty three grenade trapping holes in his

(01:58:47):
body died two.

Speaker 1 (01:58:49):
Days Later m so two people died, from, THAT right
i assume he's still. In prison still.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):
In prison he was guilty of two counts of premeditative
murder and three counts of attempted. Premeditative murder so the
attempted ones was in my tentp media COMMANDER and xo
the two killed off what was? The murder so on.
Death row so it's been on death row all, this

(01:59:18):
time all his appeals have, been exhausted just waiting. For
execution he's one of four to. Be executed we'll point
out that no one's been executed since nineteen sixty one.

Speaker 1 (01:59:30):
On federal, death row?

Speaker 2 (01:59:31):
Right right, oh yeah government.

Speaker 1 (01:59:35):
Or is that? Military?

Speaker 2 (01:59:36):
Military, yeah yeah that? Government MILITARY since.

Speaker 1 (01:59:39):
I think if anybody, Changed that trump would probably would
you attend if they offered it to you since you
tried to? Kill you would you go to is a?
DEATH sentence, i.

Speaker 3 (01:59:53):
WOULD because, I mean i mean gross in, the story it's, uh,
SO yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59:58):
I would i mean you were personally fucking throw a
grenade at, your, rack right, you KNOW like, I mean i,
don't know if you get anything out, of it especially
this this long down, the road which that kind of
sounds weird, to say, you know you get something out,
of it but maybe, some closure. MAYBE something.

Speaker 2 (02:00:18):
I.

Speaker 1 (02:00:18):
DON'T know i just feel like maybe like come show up,
and perseverance, you know like you didn't get, me home
eas your turn.

Speaker 2 (02:00:26):
To, go now Man is america hadn't hadn't recognized it in.
This way but it is one of the worst attacks
Really in, american history regardless of it being someone in
the military, doing it but more important because it was
someone in the military doing it for. These, REASONS.

Speaker 1 (02:00:51):
Yeah i think the only other time we've had that
is what. THAT psychiatrist i think it Was. In texas
so the world's a.

Speaker 2 (02:01:00):
Copytat world. You KNOW when i was writing, THE book
i had to do a, book PROPOSAL and i put
it in the, book proposal if we keep doing what,
we're doing we're gonna keep getting what we're doing getting
in terms of people are bringing, in military how we
check and all those types. Of things so it was
always going to. Happen again it was always going to.

(02:01:20):
Happen AGAIN and i put that in that proposal in nineteen,
Ninety eight. I'm sorry in two thousand. And eight then
that attack happened in two thousand, and nine same, same reasons,
you know. Radicalize extremists but he had seen where, his
brother if, you will for the same ideology did, it

(02:01:41):
completed it, was successful so he could do, it too
and that's what. He, did yeah arguably arguably inspired and Motivated. By.
Ogbar yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:01:58):
Possibly know the problem is it's such a. Large force
it's such a large. Like organization it's, almost like, you
know you have, bad teachers you have. Bad doctors there's
like a bad apple, in it, you know and, Every
bunch like is it even possible to filter out the
extremists from? Every background you Know what, I'm, saying like

(02:02:21):
how how is that? Even possible because you even HEAR about, i,
mean well YOU'RE like fbi AGENTS or cia agents that
have turncoated and, you know and these are the most checked.
People ever, you know if YOU'RE a, cia agent you're
the most. Check person or you're working WITH, the cia
they know everything. About you they've, done polygraphs they've. Done

(02:02:42):
everything BUT so i, DON'T know i don't know what
you can do to stop something, like that, You.

Speaker 2 (02:02:49):
KNOW yeah i think there's always a sign. Of something
the sign is not. Gonna be the sign wasn't when,
Animal comes i'm going to.

Speaker 3 (02:02:55):
Kill, them no that wasn't. A sign but what was there.

Speaker 2 (02:03:01):
To, THIS day i believe something. WAS there i believe
that the leadership at that at, that level the one
that was really close, to him not, his commander but,
you know the lower level sergeants of what he was
putting out should have been should have been, you, Know

(02:03:28):
recognized and it begged. THE question i think certain actions beg.
The question, you know so if, he DIDN'T as i like,
to say joining the, reindeer games if all the if
all the sections over here doing, this thing and then he's,
never coming, like why it begs the question? Like why and,
more importantly in an environment, like that and you're getting

(02:03:51):
ready across the border to go fight a war and
more than ninety percent of your force has never fought a,
war before could be afraid to. Go fight but it
begged the question to ask? What's wrong that could have
been an answer for someone not coming and playing the

(02:04:12):
rendeer games like all the, time right could have been
the family issue. At home mother could have just had
this thing they learned about and thinking. About that so
that's why certain things beg. A, question now the answer
wouldn't gonna be from, him, THAT well i don't want
to play football, with, you Guys can i'm gonna kill
you soon as. Animal comes that won't gonna be. The
answer but certain behavior begs. A QUESTION and i think

(02:04:37):
in every sing that you talked about of someone going
road that even EVEN the fbi or any of, those people.

Speaker 3 (02:04:49):
They have to be so stellar like every day that
means stealth, every day not to give.

Speaker 2 (02:04:54):
Up, anything yeah and coming. Upon us and then we
got to be trained in terms. Of situation aware is
to look, for anything but just. Be aware if you're
aware is going to, come out something's going to. Come, out.

Speaker 1 (02:05:11):
Yeah, WELL yeah i mean it's, tough though because there's
so many there's so many people in the military going
through so many different kinds of issues that if someone's,
acting weird it could be one of a, million things,
you know and it would have TO be.

Speaker 2 (02:05:26):
I.

Speaker 1 (02:05:27):
Don't, know luckily there there really hasn't been a lot
of like insider attacks like that that, we've seen, you
know there's only a handful, of examples yours being one.
Of THEM so i guess we're lucky that's not an
issue that. We have, BUT yeah i get what you're saying,
for sure that you got to be always be on.

(02:05:48):
The lookout. You know part of being a leader is
not just like understanding that your guys are trained well
to do, their job but are they? Mentally fit are,
you know how's everything going along? Those lines? Is there
if there's something a, little off then maybe they need
to go talk. To somebody maybe it's not anything crazy
like an insider threat kind. Of deal maybe it's just
they're having issues at home. Or whatever, YOU know i,

(02:06:11):
Don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:12):
And this IS what i learned. From this first, and
foremost we don't go home with people, at night so
we don't know what. They're, planning. Yeah right and then
the next is because, this happened because this happened from,
a soldier is that, no profession level, of, education ideology
or religion is. Above approach there is no profile the

(02:06:35):
insider threat is close. To anything so we can't say
that then because over because that's, a soldier that's, a,
marine right that's. An, airman no it doesn't work, like
that especially, for me it didn't work, Like that like
anybody can do anything at. ANY time i believe that
anybody being radicalized to do anything at, anytime anywhere all
it takes is someone influencing them in a certain man

(02:06:58):
for them AND say i. Get it then you go
from racalized to. Being extremist. Then boom it's that simple
and it's not a. Long.

Speaker 1 (02:07:06):
Process, YEAH well i understand that you're you're feeling on
that since you were at the, you know touch point if,
you will of that radicalization of where you know it
led into this crazy. Attack man that. Is wild THAT'S like,
I said i remember reading about it in a newspaper
back in the day when it, originally happened and seeing

(02:07:28):
it on, the news but you haven't really heard anything
about it. Since Then so i'm really glad you reached
out to come on. THE show, I really i really
appreciate you coming. On today is there any kind of
organizations or anything that you want to promote before we jump, OFF.

Speaker 2 (02:07:42):
Here i would say first and foremost that THE story
i just talked about is in the Book Called embedded
Aim The Insider. Threat one not only do you get
that story in, the book but you also get proactive
situation and where the strategies one is. Trust, observed, listen
report know, your neighbor not just your neighbor, next door

(02:08:04):
but that could be your, fellow student could be your
fellow employee at. Your, workplace listen don't just hear and then.
Gut CHECK and i think if people begin to apply,
those things like anybody can, do them you have to be,
you know YOU or i who started in. The military
is just, situational, awareness period but leverage them in the
manner of those proactive strategies if you have an opportunity

(02:08:25):
to mitigate the next insider threat or even.

Speaker 1 (02:08:28):
Massot, attack yeah situational awareness. Is huge, you know just
a little bit of situational awareness can stop so many
issues throughout just an, average, day right, you know from
car accidents to medical emergency stuff. Like that it's. SITUATIONAL
awareness i think with the increase of smartphones now everybody has.

(02:08:50):
Wireless headphones everybody's walking around on their phone with, headphones
in you lose that. Situational AWARENESS something i really, you
know pushed to, my son who is you know when
he goes to and from. Jiu jitsu he's moving around
on the streets, at Night and, i'm, like, HEY man
i don't, you know you're always listen to your headphones.
At night you shouldn't be listening to your headphones like

(02:09:10):
when you're when you're going down. The street especially because
we're In, southern california there's homeless. People everywhere most of them,
are fine but there's some crazy ones. Out there you
never know when they're gonna just turn, And Snap and,
i'm like just maintain, situational awareness, you know because you
don't want to be that guy that's sitting there looking
at your phone with your headphones in and then out,
of nowhere it's just lights out because something happened because

(02:09:32):
you weren't. Paying, attention, so yeah. GOOD advice i really.
Appreciate it i'll put a link to that in my
in the show description so everybody can check. That out
and then are you on? Social media are You? On
instagram I'm.

Speaker 2 (02:09:44):
On LinkedIn I'm. On Instagram i'm i'm not the best,
at it so you're gonna get too much. On There
but LinkedIn, For.

Speaker 1 (02:09:52):
Sure okay that's cool when people can check. That out
I'm on LinkedIn. AS well i DON'T really i don't
really Ever, promote LinkedIn but i Am. On LinkedIn if
anybody wants to add me, ON there i am under
my name, as well and then you can always find my.
Other stuff Jacremographics dot com is, My Website Former action
Guys And Former action news Is my. Instagram page and. That's,
IT man i really appreciate you coming, on today, ALL

Speaker 2 (02:10:14):
Right i appreciate it yet

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Extra Episode | Bart Womack | US Army Old Guard, 101st Airborne, Invasion of Iraq

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Extra Episode | Bart Womack | US Army Old Guard, 101st Airborne, Invasion of Iraq