Come Out, Come Out, Wherever You Are! - Unrefined Podcast

This episode goes deep into the wild and often misunderstood world of deliverance, the religious spirit, and spiritual formation. Brandon and Lindsy sit down with Michael Miller—pastor, teacher, and co-host of Remnant Radio—to tackle everything from charismatic excesses and cessationism to biblical boundaries and the power of intention. From demons hiding in plain sight to generational spirits, exorcism rituals, and the fine line between hype and holiness, this one pulls no punches. Plus, Michael shares a jaw-dropping recent encounter involving a spirit named Lilith. You’re not going to want to miss this conversation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to the Fringe radio network franradionetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Do this stuff included in your liturgy, just don't do
it in such a way that nobody can actually be
edified by it.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah, thank you for joining me on the Unrefined Podcast.
I'm your host Brandon Spain along with Lindsay Waters, where
each week we delve into the mysteries that shape our world,

(00:51):
from the tangible to the supernatural, with the foundation rooted
in Biblical truth. For more content and exclusive resources, busy
at Unrefined podcast dot com. Now let's dive into this
week's episode. Hey, hey, hey, you guys, we got another
great episode of Unrefined. Here our guest today. He's a

(01:14):
bold voice in modern theology, unafraid to challenge traditions, whether
it's deliverance, doctrine, or diving into the weird stuff. He
brings the heat with clarity and conviction. Welcome our guest
today from Remint Radio, Michael Miller.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
How you doing, Michael, I'm fantastic. I got coffee so
I'm in good shape.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, me too. Have to control my coffee intake because
it tries my adhd nuts. We speaking of that, have
you ever driven out an ADHD demon before I tried
to did well, So I have ADHD? Did you know that?
I mean, you do.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's that's why I could. I could drink this in
the evening and it does nothing to me. Yeah, yeah,
but you know, I just limited to two cups a
day because that's kind of what I do. And yeah,
but yeah, I try to once and something came out
of alman when I did it, but I don't think
it was ADHD.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I don't know what it was. So that's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
I have a friend who has really yeah. Yeah, but
I mean, hey, bro, I'm like, I'm next, no joking.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
But there's a lot of strengths to it too. I
don't want to get it totally. Yeah. Well, I drive
my wife nuts. That's the worst. I drive my family nuts.
I'm like, did it a squirrel? Well, let's get this ball. Roland.
Tell us a little bit about how you got into
the ministry, in this specific ministry that you do. I
want to talk mainly, if it's cool with you, about
this phenomena of the religious spirit, but I want to

(02:37):
go on, you know, some deliverance stuff as well. So
how did you get into all this Michael.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Okay, So came to Christ when I was fifteen. Mostly
got discipled up in a Cessationist Bible church in Dallas, Texas.
And then and in young Life. That was really where
I got discipled. And the ministry that I got involved
in is that the Episcopal Young Life, I mean young
is non denominational.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
It's just its own nonprofit. Yeah. I started in the
I think guy named Jim Rayburn.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
I can't remember exactly when he started A long time ago. Yeah,
it's been around for a while in great ministry.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Loved it.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
But I was in the epicenter of you know, Cecatianist theology,
and so I actually had to go to church.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
I remember.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Really the reason I came to Christ is somebody gave
me a Bible and I read it and I was
I read Matthew. It was one of those bibles that
just had the Psalms, the Proverbs, and the New Testament. Yeah,
so I would I would memorize some of the Psalms,
thinking girls will find this attractive. And then it was
like poetry. You know, I didn't know what it was.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
The Song of Solomon.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, yeah, dude, I was, I was. It did So
this is the interesting the Bible didn't have the Song
of Solomon and it only had the solves the Proverbs
in the Testament. Somebody thought that was a good idea.
But anyway, I read the Gospel of Matthew, and you know,
I was grew up in a semi Jewish, semi Mormon
home and so yeah, yeah, wow, quite the quite the
mix up. And then when I got my hands on

(03:58):
a Bible, that was probably the beginning of my walk
with Christ. I just wanted to be like him. I
found in Christ's a role model. And so I would
go to church on Sunday morning with my friends because
I wanted to learn more about what I was reading.
And in going there, I remember that's where I was
told that God wasn't doing that stuff today. So I
had to go to church to find out all that
God wasn't up to, and that's a forsake the church.

(04:21):
I'm a pastor today. So but anyway, I remember learning
about being discipled and how Jesus made disciples and we're
supposed to make disciples and be discipled. And so I
went to the guy at the school who would always
show up in the cafeteria, which was the Young Life guy.
And asked him if he would disciple me because I
knew he knew a lot about the Bible, and so
that's kind of where I was disciple. But it wasn't

(04:41):
until I was in college that I would begin to
question the whole Cessatianist thing. And theologically I'd come to
the conclusion that that God was still doing miracles. But
experientially I just I was super skeptical, and so prayed
for about three months to experience the power of God
and had an encounter with the Spirit my senior year
of and so that sent me on a trajectory to

(05:02):
try to make sense of this stuff. Couldn't quite handle
the charismatic packaging at churches, like the old timey preacher
that would add an extra syllable to the end of
every word.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's like jesus Ah, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
I couldn't. I couldn't handle it. And so somebody recommended
that I read a book by Jack Deear called Surprised
by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Due I read
that book too. Yeah, man, that it helped here. I
was already believing it, but I couldn't. I couldn't stomach
what I was seeing and then I read that book
and I was like, this guy speaks my language, and
so then I read Yeah, Yeah, I read Surprised by

(05:38):
the Voice of God. I read the Beginner's gude to
give the Prophecy, and then I was online looking for
more literature, and so I looked up Jack Deear and
found a church website called well Spring Church out in
Fort Worth where Jack was a pastor, and so I
started commuting out there twice a week. And that's really
where I cut my teeth on the gifts. I had
had some experiences and I was seeing things happen, but
it was really being discipled by Jack Dear where that all,

(06:00):
you know, kind of took off. He taught me about
how to cast out demons. He taught me about praying
for the sick. He taught me about how to hear
the voice of God and to incorporate that into just
normal living and practice in friendship with God. And then
he also taught me theology. We went through grudom, systematic theology,
and a number of other things, and he would have
us bring our We would go through a particular topic

(06:22):
like I don't know the communicable attributes of God and
have us argue through them. We'd argue Calvinism, our Minionism,
the various five points of Calvinism, limited Tonement, persevererience, the Saints.
It was just great because he would we would come
with our you know, belief, and he would tear it
to shreds. And it didn't matter if he agreed with
us or not. He wanted us to learn to think

(06:43):
critically about the scriptures. He wanted us to learn how
to execute the text. And so it was a really
beautiful process. And you know, he's my mentor and dear friend.
So I got to when I was in Mississippi the
other week, I got to go have lunch with him.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
In Memphis, which is great. Cool. He's in Memphis now,
He's not in Texas anymore.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
No, No, he he's been Memphis for sometime. Both his
son and daughter and grandkids, they all lived there.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
So that's why when I was in Oxford, I was like,
you know, anytime I'm there, I'm gonna go hang out.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah yeah, well yeah, that kind of echoes a little
bit of my journey too, because I was reading Charismatic
Chaos by Johnny Mack, and I had a friend who
went to Brownsville. Regardless of what you think of Brownsville.
He came back touched by God and laid his hands
on me, prayed for me, and I got filled with
the Holy Spirit. What even won't it? And that was
the first book I read was Jack Eear's Surprised by

(07:29):
the Power of the Spirit.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Dude, Lucky you. That was not the first book I read.
I wish it had been. Well after I was filled
with the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
I had read like Andrew Murray and a lot of
the classics and Spurgeon and all these guys, but I
didn't read a lot of the modern I think I
was Calvinist for a minute. I got Growed Him for
Christmas when my grandparents got me Groot Him for Christmas,
and I went through it and I'm like, yeah, I
like this. And then you know, about several weeks later,
I wasn't Calvinist anymore. Let's let's talk Let's talk spirituality
and go into this. So start with definitions. I think

(07:58):
that's really important because a lot of people talk past
each other when they're talking and they're saying the same thing,
and it's just different nomenclature. But let's start with some clarity.
How would you define a religious spirit and how does
it manifest in modern church culture? Is it an attitude
like a spirit of seventy six or create a clean
spirit or right spirit within me? Or is it a

(08:21):
demon or nehli? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean so I'm a sufficiency of scripture guy.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
So the tough thing about that language is I actually
don't even find it in the text, and so we're
dealing with really a modern term that's used to describe
a certain set of attributes, behaviors, beliefs. That's not to
say there isn't an actual spirit that is religious in nature.
There may very well be. The tough part is I

(08:49):
can't find an actual text to defend the idea that
there is a religious spirit per se. However, you know,
if you were to look at the people whose religion
was incapable of saving them, then I would go straight
to the Pharisees. You know, here you have a religious
tradition that being the oral and the commentary on it
rather than the actual text itself, right, And you know

(09:11):
Jesus would say of them, you nullify the word of
God by your tradition. It's like when he would quote
the Oral tradition of the Pharisees, which which later became
rabbinical Judaism. Judaism as it is today is Pharisee Judaism. Yeah,
but I think of like the Sermon on the Mount
where he says, you've heard it said.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
But I say to.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
You, well, anytime Jesus wouldquote from scriptures, he would never
say you've heard it said.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
He would say it is written. But when he.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Says you've heard it said, he's talking about their tradition
and how their tradition was actually nullifying the text itself.
What does he say, I'm going to have to find
find the passage in John where he mentions this to
the Pharisees. But that kind of gives you a framework
for what I would how I would think of the
religious spirit.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
If there is.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
One I would, they would be min That would be
my most I would say, evidential texts I could find
inferentially that shows what religion is like. It has a
tendency to nullify what's right there in the text.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
Michael, I've often maybe it was back on my old
kind of the early days after I got saved, I
was running in kind of charismatic and assemblies of God circles.
I often heard that term you just when someone felt
like someone was faking it or showboat in a little bit,
getting like fake expressiveness. And I wouldn't doubt if sometimes

(10:33):
it's not used by people who are just envious and
jealous of someone who really is tapping into the spirit.
Have you encountered the term in that context before?

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I think you can find it in several contexts. You know,
I would say that the charismatic Christian can be just
as religious as the cessationist who denies the gifts.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Absolutely, yep, you.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Know, I think of the I don't know, I'm trying
to think of various traditions that i'd find and charismatic Christianity.
I mean, like here's one they use anointing to talk
about everything, like there's gifting and then there's anointing, and
I'm going, where are you seeing this? And the only
passage I know of where it talks about anointing in
that kind of way was Jesus being anointed with the spirit,

(11:18):
And so there's not a lot of biblical texts for it,
but you hear a lot of things talked about it
in that way. And same thing with like what some
of the other charismatic sort of traditions.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
You know, when it comes to speaking in tongues in
a public space without interpretation, they'll say, well, this is
a prayer language, and what they mean by that is
they're not speaking to you, they're speaking to God, and
therefore it's okay to do this without interpretation. And I'm like, hey,
you're nullifying the very clear command in First Corinthians fourteen
to not do this in a public setting where there's

(11:50):
unbelievers or people uninformed about gifts without interpretation, because it's
going to cause them to think you're crazy. So here
you have another example of the same kind of the
problem where they're actually nullifying the word of God by
their tradition.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
What about people who do that and they do it
softly under their breath. I mean, do you have a
problem with that or is it more just a proclamation issue?

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Well, I mean the context is a public setting, right, yeah,
you know, it says one brings a psalm teaching tongue
interpretation revelation so that everybody can be edified. If you're
doing it silently under your breath, I mean, I have
no problem with that. The result that Paul is concerned
with is people walking into the meeting and getting terrified.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
He quotes from Isaiah twenty eight eleven saying, by men
of strange tongues, I'll speak to these people and they
won't listen. Right, it's a sign of judgment. And so
he doesn't want that to be the case because this
is a gift.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
It's not a judgment.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
So I don't think you're going to end up causing
people to be terrified if you're doing it quietly under.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Your breath where they don't hear it.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
I So I don't think in a meeting like it's
the three of us guys, it's we all know each other,
we believe in these things there for today. I have
no problem with the three of us praying and tongues together.
It's in a context where there's unbelievers or are people
uninformed about gifts that I think Paul is primarily concerned about.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah. Cooling too though, is even when people were ignorant
about that sort of thing, Like I've seen the video
somebody butchered a video of these kids that were praying
for someone to be healed, and they were all talking
in tongues really loud and they were just doing what
they saw the adults do. And sure, you know, and
I think it's really shows the graciousness and the mercy
of God, and he'll even honor that even sometimes when

(13:21):
you're not in the proper context of that. But yeah,
you're right. I think it's super important and it's it's
just all but just like you said, just swept aside,
you know, just we'll rename it prayer language, and then
you can do it whenever you want to do it,
and however you want to do it. And yeah, I agree. Yeah,
I pulled up the text.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
It's actually in Matthew fifteen where Jesus he's talking to
the Pharisees, says, then pharisees and scribes came to Jesus
from Jerusalem and said, why do your disciples break the
tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their
hands when they eat. So notice he's talking about a
tradition not in the scripture, but of the elders. And
he answered them, why do you break the manment of

(14:00):
God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded
us to honor our father and mother, and whoever reviles
father or mother must surely die.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
But you say, if.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Anyone tells his father or mother what you have is
gained from me, is given to God, he need not
honor his father and mother. So for the sake of
your tradition, you have made void the word of God.
And this is where he goes on to say, you
honor me with your lips, but your heart is far
from them. In vain, you worship doctrines of men. I
think that is the key. If I was to look

(14:29):
at what a religious spirit is, it's these kind of activities.
You nullifying the word of God, clear command of text,
and you've created a tradition that allows you to excuse
your failure to follow through it. I thinkists do this. Yeah, well,
cessationists do this in particular with a clear command given
three times in Corinthians desire earnestly spiritual gifts. Desire earnestly

(14:52):
spiritual as it says, and then two out of three
times he says, especially prophesyphici right. So they do a
scriptural gymnastics to create a theology called Cessatianism, so they
can violate the clear command of the text. I don't
I mean, I don't know what else to say that,
but that is a religious act that is devoid of
life because it's not actually following the text.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, well it runs me, you air, because you do
not know the scriptures are me or the word of God.
I mean, that's that's a misquote, but that it reminds
me of that passage when he talks to the Pharisees
about that. Yeah. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to
unpack there with Cessatianism. I don't want to go there,
but I've found too in even some of these what
i'd call hyper grace or extreme grace type ministries, there's

(15:37):
actually a religious spirit there, like a religious attitude of
if you don't believe in grace like we do, then
there's always that us and them kind of attitude of
we have it. And they add traditions onto the scriptures
as well to fly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, I think the hyper charismatic church that does the
courts of Heaven or the it's.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
The cottage industry now, yeah, it is, Oh my god,
I mean so popular been sold on that, I mean, gee, anyway,
don't get me started.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, the publishing companies is not owning the fact that
they know what it is and they don't care because
it makes the money. So yeah, I'm a firebrand. Like
you said earlier, I'm gonna we say it on our podcast,
the Rent Radio, that we call a spade a spade,
we want to call balls and strikes as best as
we can. Yeah, I want to do it charitably though,
But I mean I think of that being a great

(16:25):
case in point. They've created a tradition that is, they
use text of scripture, but not in their context. They
truth text and cherity pick to make something say what
it doesn't say, and then create a whole practice out
of it. And here's the really ironic part is it's
supposed to be pragmatically getting you your your prayers answered.
But the problem is is it actually creates a further

(16:46):
wedge between you and God because instead of just going
directly to God to bring your requests before him, well
you've got to follow these particular steps and take this
particular petition to this court room in.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Heaven rituals, right, I mean, it adds these rituals to
the text.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, Well into another thing which I find ironic in this.
And you guys both will appreciate this out of people
for doing it. By the way, really gnostic demons. Oh yeah, oh,
we need to go there. I want to hear about
gnostic demons because I think evangelicalism in general, including our branch,
is just infiltrated with gnosticism. Who won't go there yet,

(17:22):
but no. It also the ironic thing about that course
of heaven stuff is those are sometimes the same people
that don't believe in the Divine Council or the elohem.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
And yeah, yeah, they'll they'll kill for Heiser's content. Yeah yeah,
and that is actually the proof. I mean that, that's
that's what it's showing. It's showing the Divine Council. It
shows his majesty, not his judicialness, even though the judicialist
is part of that majesty, but also makes sense. Yeah,
he's also seated right, Yeah, his work is done. Yes,

(17:57):
I think a Psalm ten says, you know the Lord
said to my lord, sit in my right hand until
I make your enemies of footstool under your feet. And
so how is God making his enemies a footstool under
his feet?

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Well? Verse three.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
In the day of your power, your people will volunteer freely.
You know, you see in Roman sixteen. Soon the God
have having will crush Satan under your feet. This is
what he says to the Roman Church. And so the
activity of destroying the works of the devil is being
carried out through God's Church today, who have been given
the spirit by which they can do these things.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
See, I've heard that scripture twisted it to be in
a revival Scriptures versus A. Just let's go out and
disciple and cast out spirits and raise the dead, and
do you know, do what we know to do. I mean, yeah,
John Wimber do the stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Well yeah, and Bill Johnson, whether you like him or
not or whatever, I mean, he's right. The will of
God is right about that. Yeah, yeah, cast out demons
so yeah, which he got from Wimber. Yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
So let's go into I hope I'm not bursting any
bubbles here when I talk about the tongue thing or
the No, I'm sure at all. Okay, I love just
be clear. I'm like Paul, I think got to speak
in tongues more than all of you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Well, I'll tell you a story about that. I had
a priest that was my spiritual director for a long time,
and he made me one month praying tongues and he
made me time myself thirty minutes a day, and I'll
tell you it really revolutionized my spirituality just doing that.
It was by myself, of course, but in my devotions
he made me Praying tongues is part of a discipline.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
And so I think what's great about this is what
he made you do was practice a discipline of prayer,
and how you practiced it was using a gift that
I gave.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
You, which is a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Nobody would deny that prayer is disciplined to be celebrated,
as Richard Foster would say.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, definitely. And I think that the gifts, they're divorced
a lot of times from the disciplines. And we see
very clearly in that Corinthians passage that everything needs to
be done decently in an order. And I've heard that
used by my more liturgical brethren on my other's side
to oh, you know, no expression, no passion, no all
that stuff, which is not what it's talking about at

(20:01):
always talking in context about people getting up and prophesied
and talking in tongues everywhere.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
I mean, you know, yeah, so yeah, it's like, do
this stuff included in your liturgy, just don't do it
in such a way that nobody can actually be edified
by it.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, let's talk about your deliverance minstry.
Let's just let's just go here. I mean, there's just
so much here and there tends to be and since
you are a you know, straight shoot from the hip,
there's so many deliverance ministries out there now, and it's
becoming I would say trendy. I think that would be
a good word. And there's some and it's good and bad.

(20:37):
I don't want to load it with just bad. But
do you see any danger in sensationalism overshadowing the substance
of the fact that deliverance ministries are rising up everywhere?

Speaker 2 (20:50):
I see a danger on both sides of the spectrum. Okay,
you know I often want to teach on this. I say, imagine,
if you will, there's a road, and on each side
is a ditch, and one ditch you have this side
that says the devil has no real part to play
in my life. I think it's the road of Voltaire
said the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing

(21:12):
the world he didn't exist. I think our Western world
can't fall into that ditch very quickly. I'm listening to
Alisa Childers break it down. She's done four parts now
and she's basically nullified very clear teaching and scripture that
we're to do these things. And that's heartbreaking for me
because I think that the number I mean, I loved it, well,
it's fantastic. Yeaeah, Yeah, I think I think she's done

(21:34):
a phenomenal job dealing with progressive Christianity and deconstruction. I
think she's done a really bad job here, though I
think she's a wonderful like I really would advocate for
her podcast in her general sense, but yeah, I feel
like she's done a very unfaithful job to the text
on this particular topic because she's removing the practice of

(21:55):
delivering people from demons, which I know that This is
where I think the the personal nature of it gets.
Is there people that are afflicted that you just left
them in their affliction and you refuse to offer them
help because you don't really believe it and you don't
really practice it. And so what I love about the
fact that it's becoming a trend is people are actually
getting real help despite the fact that not all of
the practices out there are ones that I would be like,

(22:16):
you know, that's not how I do it.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
So then you've got.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
The other side of the road where you've got people
over inflating the power of the enemy. They've got a
really big devil and a really small God. And I
think this happens both in evangelical world and I think
it happens in charismatic world. The evangelicals they kind of
have this, don't talk about it. I don't want to
attract it. That causes me fear. And even the idea
that a Christian have a demon, Oh no, like that, Well,

(22:40):
how can we be assured of anything?

Speaker 3 (22:42):
And so they spirit demon in your body, the Holy
spirits there.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, they haven't gotten their demonology from the text. They've
gotten it from movies like The Exorcist, or they've gotten
it from Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Medieval theology too, a lot of it. We have so
much hold over Thomas Aquanas and medieval theology that was
just so wrong about the demonic world.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I'd love to hear more about that because I don't
know as much about that. But the charismatics do it
as well. It's like there's a demon behind every bush.
It's the you know, I was uh late get into work.
I ran out of gas. I'm just I'm under spiritual
warfare again, you know that. It's like, come on, like
you no, you just you just didn't you didn't get gas,

(23:23):
you know, like you should have just gotten up ten
minutes earlier.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
And he just did something dumb. They'll blame it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Well that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's like, let's blame everything on the devil, you know,
and let's not take any personal responsibility for own actions.
And so I see that we actually just did a
podcast on that very topic. The devil made me do
it kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Oh yeah, I think I did Josh do that with
all of y'all did that one up? I think it
was all of us. Yeah, maybe he did it. I
can't remember those those little those little things he does.
And you know, yes, he's so cool. So let's just
dive into like deliverance one on one. Let's start off

(24:05):
with first, what do you see right in the deliverance
world right now? We talked about the fact that it
is trendy and we can change that word. It's becoming
more of the norm. How about that?

Speaker 2 (24:14):
And I'm glad it is personally yeah, yeah, yeah, but
you have to filter through the Bob Larsons to get
to the Michael Miller's right. I mean yeah, but even
Bob Larson, amidst the packaging and some of the weird stuff,
I'm like, yeah, I think he's actually helping people. I'm
not saying I agree with his practice or even his doctrine.
I couldn't even tell you what his doctrine is. I
know so little about Bob Larson. Yeah, but there's some

(24:37):
stuff in there that I'm like, oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, it's mostly with me. I've read a few of
his books, and I think it's more of the theatric
aspect that turns me off about it. That's what turns
me off as well. Yeah yeah, but that's look that
happens in the Catholic Church too. People don't realize it
a lot everywhere. Yeah, a lot of the exorcist rituals
that we have in the Anglican and the Catholic, in
that whole stream, they're very very much to make it

(25:02):
empowering counter versus a truth encounter, and I think it
needs to be both. Anyway, we'll get more into that, but.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, so what's happening right though, I would say people
are getting delivered from demons. I think there's a real
world where that's happening. And in that there's also freedom
from a number of things. You know, freedom that's healing families,
people that have been addicted to pornography. And you know,
as much as I love the pathway of a therapy
that would also trace your pornographic addiction or unwanted sexual

(25:31):
desire on childhood trauma, which it is, there's a direct correlation. Sure,
go read Unwanted by Jay Stringer. There's also a spiritual
component to it. And so we're seeing people get set
free from that kind of stuff. And you know, and
not just that, but I'm thinking of a young family.
The wife was dealing with sexual frigidity and she had

(25:54):
a spirit cast out of her that got in when
she was in college because she had been drugged and
raped and yeah, yeah, inable to be intimate with her husband.
Suddenly she gets set free from a spirit of rape
and misogyny and now family disaster avoided. The enemy is
intended to set off a bomb and a home and

(26:14):
destroy a family, and God delivered them and saved a family.
It's like these kind of beautiful things are happening across
the board, Like I'm seeing so much of it, and
I'm not even the one doing much of it. There's
so much happening, and so I love that this is happening.
I love that people are getting the freedom that God
paid for, and I hope to see more of that.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, I agree, I totally agree. You know, there's a
question that I have that relates to this, and we
can go into more of what you see wrong if
you want to put in the scale of balance. Is
what you just said weighs a lot more than what's wrong.
I mean, it really does. People getting free is absolutely
it's like people getting sozoed saved. But I mean, I
don't mean the ministry says, I mean the Greek words.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
So the Greek word so so yeah, body, soul, serious,
the whole wholeness.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah, wholeness, and that's order and chaos. And that's the
other thing too, is that for some reason, the church
is really big, and this is very cliche, really big
in the either or when it's a lot of both,
and in a lot of times totally. Sometimes we need
the healing of traumas, but we need the deliverance as well,
and I see very few groups that really incorporate both
of them, and I'd like to see that. I think

(27:20):
God's doing that though. I think that's part of the
revival that's going on, as the Lord is getting to
his body ready to operate outside of the four walls
of the church. But that's another show. We'll go there
another time. But my question is this. There's a lot
of people that don't believe that Christians can have spirits.
All right, we'll go here for a second, all right,

(27:41):
And there's also an ammunition from Jesus that if you
cast out spirits and there's nothing there to fill it,
that seven more come back. So how do these two
scriptures gel? Right? If I'm not supposed to cast amount
of believers, I'm supposed to cast amount of unbelievers, all right? Well,
if I cast about unbelievers, and if I'm in a

(28:02):
like a revival type setting or a setting where I'll
never see them again or not if they get disciples
or whatever, did I just make it worse for them?
I mean, how do people jail those two scriptures together?
What do you think? Michael?

Speaker 2 (28:15):
I questioned the way that people are interpreting that text
about you know, spirit leaves and okay, house clean and
put in order. Yeah, I don't think that's necessarily talking
about the spirit. If you do it with an unbeliever,
it's going to come back unless the house is filled.

(28:38):
So here's my basic premise when it comes to evil spirits.
One of the basic premise is going to include three components,
one of them being far more controversial than the other two.
But I would say evil spirits traffic and sin in
a general sense, they traffic in the sin that you commit,
the sin committed against you, and the sin committed by

(28:59):
your ancestors. So the third one being obviously the controversial one. Yeah,
people don't like that. Yeah, but that's been that's my
understanding of the text, and that's my understanding experientially and
what I've seen. And so Jesus says to the man
who is paralyzed, go and sin no more, lest something
worse should happen to you. So it's pretty clear that
the paralysis happened because of sin. Well, what's going to

(29:23):
cause him to revert back to a paralyzed state more?

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Since?

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, so I've cast a demon out of an unbeliever,
and after I cast the demon out of him. I said, now,
don't do that ever again.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Repent now.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
I tried to share the gospel with him, and we
actually met for coffee three weeks later, and I did
share the gospel with him. He wasn't ready to give
his life to Jesus. I'll tell you what. You know
what he's not going to do. He's not going to
go play with the Ouiji board again because he knows
that when I cast that demon out of him, that's
how it got in. And so he would probably stay
away from that practice now. So I think the concern
for a person getting redeemonized or demonized any and worse

(30:00):
condition is highly likely if they continue in the sin
that got them demonized to begin with. I'm not super
concerned about it if they walk away from that sin.
But I'll tell you the real route to freedom is
absolutely becoming a Christian. But it's becoming a Christian that
lives righteously and puts on that breastplate of righteousness. By
living righteously, you are protected right you know, you do

(30:21):
these various Christian practices. You have your sort of the spirit,
like you know the scriptures, you wear the helmet of salvation,
you shod your feet with the Gospel of peace. So
you're regularly sharing the Gospel, you win in the shield
of faith, you're hope and confidence in God's goodness and
character like these are the things that protect us from
the attacks of the enemy.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
Michael, Well, we may as well go into that controversial one.
Can you go into the family line part a little bit?

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Like you want to go there before we talk about
Christians being demonized?

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Yeah, well that's even more controversial, I guess, But yeah,
what are some misconceptions about that? Maybe? And then I mean,
how do you do it? Do you trust the Lord
or do you just you've got to do the genealogical work.
I mean, ask your parents or something. How does it work?

Speaker 2 (31:06):
So I hesitate to teach that and talk about it,
just because I think there are certain things we need
to understand about demons that aren't going to cause people
to be terrified by the idea that could get in
from some ancestors sin.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
You know, most people, when you think of a demon,
you're thinking of legion, You're thinking of the movie The Exorcist,
which again I've already said is an overinflation of the
power of the enemy. Yes, it is not a biblical portrait.
I mean, Legion certainly is, but that's the exception and
not the norm. That's a rare, rare case that Jesus
dealt with, and it's also one of the only times
he got its name that you see in anywhere in
the text, so that the vast majority of people who

(31:40):
are demonized it's not like that. You see the woman
in Luke thirteen, Well, she's bent over double, so she
has likely what we would call scoliosis. It didn't speak
through her, it didn't cause her to be blind, it
didn't cause her to be deaf. It just literally caused
her a back issue. And so that's the scope of
that's effect on that woman in Luke thirteen, which, by

(32:03):
the way, Jesus calls her a daughter of Abraham, and
Luke's usage of that term child of Abraham is not
talking about just Jews, and it's certainly not talking about unbelievers,
because they'll later call Zakias a child of Abraham. So
he too is a salvation has come to his house,
for he too is a child of Abraham after he
showed his willingness to make restitution and repentance. So you
also see a spirit of deafness. Well, the spirit of

(32:24):
deafness didn't cause them to be blind, doesn't cause them
to be bent over double. You have spirit of muteness,
what doesn't cause him to be you know, it just
afflicts one part of the body. So that right there
should change the way we're looking at this. It's not
taking over the totality of the person. When we think possession,
we think ownership. That's actually not the Biblical portrait of

(32:45):
a person who has an evil spirit. And that's I
think because words change meaning over time in the English language,
like today we use the word awful to describe the flu,
but in Elizabethan English, the word awful would never have
been used that way. It's like the cathedral was awful
and that it inspired me and filled me with awe.
And so you're seeing language that changes meeting and so
therefore now like today, we're thinking possession means ownership when

(33:07):
you read that into your English Bible, and that's a
misunderstanding of what the text is attempting to tell you.
It's talking about a whole range of demonic issues. Okay,
I mentioned that because once you start telling people that
you could have a demon in general, that that could
freak them out. And I'm like, well, think of it
as like having a virus or a cold or or

(33:28):
you know, an infirmity. That's it, because that's their scope
of their influence on a person. And so if you've
been living with it this far, suddenly knowing that it
could be a demon isn't suddenly changing the reality of
your world. It's just now you might have an ability
to deal with it because now you know what you
might be dealing with. Okay, So then let's talk about
the generational thing. I don't call them curses because I

(33:50):
don't think that's always an accurate thing, is how we work? Yeah, well,
I I just say it's a spirit that's come down
generational lines.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah. I think there are, Yeah, I think there is.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
There are things that are generational curses because a person
has cursed their lineage, like what happens in the Mormon Temple.
They curse their children in perpetuity if they ever reveal
the secrets of the Masonic Lodge, so they actually invoke
a curse on their family line. But the vast majority
of generational spirits that we're dealing with, things that have
come down to generational lines are not what I would
call it curse. There are again, you do see a

(34:23):
generational curse. Ham's descendants for five hundred years. We see
that curse being played out, you know. So I'm not
denying that that's a thing. I'm just saying that's not everything.
And so we see the boy who's demonized. We're not
told how he got that demon and you know, we've
told that it's been there since birth. He's always been
this way. How did a boy get that way from birth?

(34:44):
It's probably not because of something he did. Yeah, probably
got in somehow. And I've seen this experienially. I saw
it a couple of weeks ago, last weekend actually, where
these things got in and nothing that person did to
deserve that, and that I know of, nothing was done
to them.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
I'll give you a.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Case a case study. I'm in Delaware praying for young boys.
He's had issues where he throws up everything from age
ten to fifteen. The throwing up stopped at age thirteen,
but then he started getting migraines, and the migraines resist
until day four, when they'd have to go to the
hospital get an injection of a steroid and then the
pain would relieve. But on day three and four, he'd

(35:23):
start throwing up again. So I'm trying to figure out,
like what kind of demon we get into, what kind
of one? The doctors can't figure out what the sickness is.
That's another thing I should mention. They don't know what
it is. They don't understand why he's in this condition.
They're treating symptoms, but they have no clue what is
the cause of it. And so this is the condition
he's been in. Parents they don't know what to do.
They just love their little kid and want to help them.

(35:44):
And so I come in and to pray for the family.
I'm thinking to myself, I doubt a ten year old
did something to deserve this, And not to say that
he deserved any of it, but I doubt a ten
year old invited something in through his own sin. Now,
maybe there was sin committed against him, quite a possibility
at age ten real, and maybe there's something generational. So
I talked to the mother and the father, and you know,

(36:05):
the mother used to do yoga, prayed with the mother
to see if there was anything there. From that, there
was nothing there. The father had done some cult practices,
played with the Ouiji board, ended up casting a spirit
out of him. I said, okay, now we might know
what is the cause of what's going on with your son,
and so I started commanding a spirit of divination to
come out. The other thing I forgot to mention was

(36:27):
that there was also a sister who was adopted that
was doing witchcraft in the home, so he could have
also been cursed in some sense. But it's hard for
me to imagine a curse landing on a child unless
he's actually committing a sin, like he's just cursed without
a cause, can on the light. So anyway, we started
commanding a spirit to come out of him through the
divination of his father like that whole thing, and.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Man, he got delivered and he was set free. And
the migraine he was on day three of a migraine,
all the pain left and it hasn't come back ever since.
And it's been six months since that happened. And he
also got baptized, that son, which is wonderful. He was
a believer, but he hadn't been baptized yet. Well, baptism
is a powerful I mean, this is my angl can
show him. But baptism is a powerful, powerful exorcist type.

(37:10):
The early Church practice definitive on this well, and I'm
a big advocate for this. Two things that I appreciate
about Roman Catholicism is the first is you do you
renounce Satan in all his works, and that needs to
be done at baptism, and that's a declaration boom, it
needs to be done. And the other thing is the confessional.
I don't think it has to be done in a
booth with a priest or like that, but I think

(37:30):
that the Protestant event daily exorcisms is what they said, yeah, yeah,
a politics, that was the practice.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, pretty early, pretty early on, it was normative for
them to do daily extorism.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yep. Yeah. So let me ask you this. I've kind
of shot away from the whole language with deliverance of
in out. You know, I maybe this is just too simplistic,
but I just kind of say, I don't care where
the demon is. It's it's there and it's bothering you
and it needs to go. And I mean that's my
kind of of shade tree theology there that I have,

(38:03):
because yeah, people get so trapped into it. Is it
in your spirit? Well no, obviously, And I'm a trichotomist,
so I tend to believe this stuff like that fits
to the whole soul dimension, because the soul doesn't get redeemed,
just just the new heart. And so I tend to
think that our souls are like a World War One
battlefield and we have to get them back to looking
like Scotland. So they've got to go from this. And

(38:24):
as a matter of fact that I kind of call
myself a soul scaper, you know, to landscape souls and
do stuff like that, which includes everything from spiritual disciplines
to that. But let me talk about this. When you
do a deliverance, do you try to make it manifest
for a power encounter all the time, or do you

(38:46):
do a truth encounter or you do both or you
undersally what I mean by truth account like new.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Andrew, Yeah, totally, yeah. I think it depends what I'm
dealing with. Okay, So I put things in different buckets. Yeah, yeah,
I mean sometimes it's just to tell me what they're
symptom are and I'm like, okay, okay, yeah it sounds
like this and not this. So I put things in
different buckets. When I'm dealing with a truth encounter, I'm
thinking of what's talked about in second Corinthians five. I

(39:11):
believe strongholds of the mind. These are ideologies, belief systems
that are contrary to the knowledge of God. So this
is what I dealt with personally. I had a belief
system that said, if anybody got to know me, really
got to know me, they wouldn't love me and wouldn't
stick around. And the reason I had that was from
trauma from childhood. Dad had walked away from the family,

(39:33):
he wasn't paying child support. Parents divorced at age one,
and at age four he remarries a woman who has
six kids and starts taking care of her kids. And
so for us it felt like abandonment, and for me
in particular as a four year old. And so here
I take this into my adult life and I had
built this way of thinking that there's something wrong with me,
and so I was always chasing after the girl that

(39:54):
was walking away, right, recreating the trauma of my childhood,
chasing after the father that wasn't available. Needed a truth encounter.
That's the kind of the Neil T. Anderson kind of thing.
But it was more than just a I renounce abandonment.
It was a yeah, I need to start believing the truth.
About myself that I'm worth knowing and loving and sticking
around for because Jesus loves me. He died on a

(40:15):
cross from me. He told me exactly what my worth was,
and he's never going to leave me, right, He'll never
forsake me, never leave me, be with me to the
end of the age. So there is that component where
you're you're starving out a demon by not feeding it
the kind of flies in your head and you're tearing
it down brick by brick as a new habitual way
of thinking. It took me about a year of intense

(40:36):
journaling on a daily basis to really get free from that.
So there's that component. But then there's other components, like
I don't think you're going to need a truth encounter
when it comes to removing a spirit that you got
from an occult practice, like playing with the BIGI board,
right right, Yeah, in that case, it's don't they.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Stop it, stop it?

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, And in that case, I'm going to tell the
person repent, renounce the prophecy or divinations or whatever it
is that you've got, the benefits you've got from that
Ouiji board, and then command that spirit of divination to
go and then I'll command it to come out of you. Now,
whether it's in on or around. The only thing I
know is that Jesus said the words come out. Yeah,
So that's what I say, yeah, because that's the only

(41:17):
example I have to follow. But I've also found that
demons do reside in particular parts of the body, like pornography.
I've seen it come out of the eyes. Their eyes
will start to tremble and shake as it's coming out
of them. I've seen people who have committed various kinds
of sexual sin, they'll literally have something come out of
their stomach and come up and out and maybe you know,
dry heave or cough or throw up yeah, yeah, multiple times.

(41:38):
And then I've had, you know, people feel something come
off of them. So I don't particularly know why or
how or what. I just know that that seems to
be a common experience, and I do see it in
scripture as far as the come out, you know, that's
the words.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
That Jesus used. Well, I think we've said this western
chance to we want to explain everything. I was talking
with somebody about communion the other day and the whole
trans substantiation argument. I mean that that just came out
of Aristatilian wanting to explain what happens in communion, And
I'm like, can't you just say, Jesus is there his presence? Yeah, exactly.

(42:17):
I mean, let's let's have bring back mystery again. So
I'm there with you with both baptism and the sacraments.
I'm like, so this presence is in the bread and
the wine in a way that his presence isn't in
the bread I eat my sandwich at lunch or the
wine I drink at home with my wife. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, his presence is in the baptismal waters in a
way it's not in my shower.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah. And I don't know what that is. Yeah. Well,
I'm the same with blessed old and blessed water and salt.
We do that too. We haven't tried that salt is yeah. Uh,
Francis McNutt called it demonic roach powder is what he
called called salt. So but I have I'm gona have
to learn about that. I have a big, a big
question for you, all right. Actually it's not really big.

(43:00):
It's just like a little flash killed question. I demons,
nephlum or angels, demonic angels.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Dude, everybody wants us on the Remnant Radio to take
a definitive stance on this. Yeah, and look I am.
If you were to ask me what I lean towards,
I'm going to go with departed Nephlum. If you're going
to ask me what I can definitively prove, I'm going
to go I don't know neither, because I don't think
the text tells us. Yeah, Now, the Nakian tradition, do

(43:28):
I think that the early Church pulled on it quite
a bit, and Jesus and disciples did.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
I think the first reference we see that the like
of fire is coming from Enoch, not the Scripture. So
the first reference we see to some of these unclean spirits,
those words in particular unclean spirit, yeah, is coming from Enoch,
and the unclean word comes from Leviticus. Like this sort
of you know, the Kosher dietary restrictions, all these animals
that were forbidden because they sort of crossed the realms, right,

(43:52):
the lobster. Is it a land animal or is it
a sea animal? Or the things that eat the dead? Right,
the kind of crossing over here.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
So the fact that those the word unclean is being
ascribed in the New Testament to those kind of spirits.
It does sort of have an Nachian flavor to it, right,
you made yourself unclean with the daughters of men and
gotten unclean children's very much they became the unclean spirits
on the earth.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
It's very much a mixture word, you know, like you know,
a mixture is a big deal in the Leviticus slot
to Torah. I mean, mixture is huge, and a nephylum
would be a mixture of human and eloheem.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
So yeah, so if you if you ask me my
personal thoughts, I think it's that if you ask me
what the text can prove, I'm going to go I
don't know, because the text doesn't prove it to us.
That's one thing I do know is we need to
get rid of them. I do know we're to tread
on these things.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
That's going back to my Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Go ahead, Well, yeah, I just had a question just
kind of the whole tone and volume of deliverance can take,
because yeah, I'll use some Mississippi words. A lot of
people think you got a hoop and holler the whole
time you're doing them, and get really loud and you know,
and I've heard some people say, no, you need to
be calm and yelling is not going to necessarily make

(45:08):
it any different. But I imagine it's also hard not
to be passionate at times when it's happening. So, well,
what's your your kind of your your method or take
or does it depend.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, I'm a low hype in all things, you know,
like it's the same thing. There's a tradition out there
that says if you if you speak in tongues, your
prayers are more powerful. No, there's no Texas says that.
In fact, I don't think that power in your prayers
has anything to do with the language those prayers are
spoken in. For what I understand that people get the
prayers answered are those who have contrite spirit. God opposes

(45:42):
the proud because grace to the humble. He hears the
prayers of the proud from afar, but he's near to
those who can write in spirit. And so it's not
the language you pray in that determines its power. It's
the humility in a person's heart. So in the same way,
when it comes to casting out a demon, it's not
the volume of your voice that determines its efficacy. But
I think humility, righteous, living authority in Christ. Those are

(46:06):
things that we can't obtain that they've given to us
by the Lord. I mean particular, the authority in Christ.
I think the act of deliverance is not because I
have a special gift, but because I'm seated in Christ
and heavenly places exact. So it's positionally related, not gift related.
And the volume of your voice I don't think makes
it any more powerful. However, I can't fault people for

(46:26):
getting passionate and getting a little bit loud when they're
dealing with these things, especially when you realize the true
nature of that thing, that that thing has been hurting
this person. And so I think the big concern I
have there is volume of your voice could actually affect
people watching, could scare them, and we don't want to
do that. Yeah, and so I want to make sure
to in order right as best.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
As I can. The tongues thing we were talking about
earlier in the show, Yeah, yeah, you want people to
feel welcome. And I wouldn't say the word.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
But it's the same thing with preaching, Yeah, exactly. Matt Chandler.
I love the guy, you know, if you ask him
about his preaching he's like, I can't help it. I'm fire,
I get loud. I'm like, but I'm not going to
fault him for that. And I tend to be more like,
you know, casual, make a lot of jokes and yeah,
me too. I can't think on my feet like he
can't either. The guy is so quick witted.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Well, I was my formative years of the charismatic spirit
field was formed by John Wimber, So of course I'm
going to be laid back in non hype. Yeah, and
I don't agree with all his theology obviously, but yeah,
I mean, he influenced me the most through all that
Lindsay kind of came through the whole Pentecostal and we
all know. And I'm not knocking Pentecostals. I love them,

(47:33):
but they they their volume. It's a cultural package. It
is cultural exactly. Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
They've got their own lexicon, their own words that they
use for things like annointing case in point.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of cessationists. I won't name
any of them that that'll make fun of Africans doing deliverance,
but that's their culture in Africa. That's that's yeah. I mean,
and they have they have so much more of an
understanding of the spirit world that those guys that that.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Well, you could make fun of them for their worship.
Africans look at them and go, don't you care about
this god you worship?

Speaker 4 (48:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah, they have the same kind of criticism on the
other side of it, and exactly that they do. They
just the way they practice is different.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah, I really think the future of Christianity is brown
and black. To be honest with you, I really do.
I mean, I know, yeah, I think we have We've
had our chance, and we'll be able to be great.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
I hope it's Jewish again, because then you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
So how would you respond to somebody that that said
deliverance all of it? It's just like emotional hype and
psychological manipulation. How would you respond to somebody if they
came at you and said that that's.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
The same criticism you could offer the Lord. I mean,
tell me, like kid falls down as always dead. This
one came out with a loud scream. I mean, Jesus
didn't tuck it away in some back corner office of
the church. It was oftentimes very public. I'm not saying
that that's the ideal way to do it. I'm saying
there were times where that happened, and it was there
was some theatrical to it, not that he ever intended
it to be that way, because that's how demons are.

(49:02):
They want a spectacle, They're not kind, And oftentimes it's
a violent process. I mean, this is a battle that's
happening over a person's life, and so sometimes it can
be very dramatic. But when people say that, I'm like, Okay, look,
if you were to take those same critiques and apply
it to what you observe in the gospels about the
Lord's ministry, would you end up denying the Lord's Ministry

(49:22):
for the very same reasons? And that concerns me.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yes, like the Western Church would in a lot of ways. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, That's where I think the greatest trick the devil
ever pulled. Convincing the world it didn't exist is a
problem amongst the Western world in particular. I mean, you've
got guys that really popularized the idea that Christians can't
be demonized.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Chuck Smith.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I think he was the one to really popularize this
amongst the Calgary Chapel, and his reasoning was not a
scirptural one. It was because we're a Christian country. We
don't see this much often. And I'm like, Chuck, I
hate to break to you, but we are way more
sinful than the Jews that Jesus was delivering who believed
than the people living in your hate day of the

(50:01):
Jesus People movement. They were far more righteous and living
righteously than the average person in the late sixties, early seventies.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Some of love. But Michael, America. It's America, you know. Yeah, no,
I'll askatology. All everything revolves around America. So yeah, that
that drives drives me crazy. Is we think we're that's
because we're the new Roman Empire. We think it's ethnocentricism. Yeah,
and it's it's what is c.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
S Lewis the term he used cultural snobbery.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Not culturultural. Yeah yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah, all right,
Well we're gonna probably land this plane. But I have
our big question we ask our first time guests, and
you know what it is, and yeah, yeah, so what
is the most supernatural thing you've seen? You've I know
you've got tons of stories, but.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah, the tough thing is I can't share some of
the stories. There are things that I think that are
so out there that that you know, I don't know
how to explain and I don't have scriptural precedent for
it other than just God does what he wants.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
Supernatural.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Yeah, let's see what would be the most supernatural thing
I've seen? Hey, Jeremy, what's one of the most supernatural
things I've seen? I got my my one of my
other elders in the office with me. What's one of
the most supernatural stories? You've heard me?

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Tell? One of your favorites at least anything? Anything? Okay, Yeah,
that was pretty wild. You talking about the Lilith thing? Okay,
what do you probably tell all the time? Yeah? I
love weird man. No, this just happened a few weeks ago.
Oh cool I heard and boo.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, well I think yeah, you guys unrefined,
they like this kind of stuff. I still I still
dug your What was the episode you guys did on
the Whole The Hole on the Ground, that whole Yeah podcast.
I was in Lafia doing it, delivered conference, running around
Lafia listening to that.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
That podcast, it was so much fun.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
Was a fun one.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Well, we elbows deep and mails Hole. Yeah, Mail's whole.
So we love My wife loves catchy titles because they
draw people in man totally totally well in humor.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
It lightens the tension, right, things that are weird if
you use humor kind of attention.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
Yeah, we had to have like a comedian when we
do debates. Let's have you know, let him do a
little monologue and then we can debate. Yeah, it'd be
great intro. Okay, So this happened a few weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I had a lady who she had had this cough
that was sort of lingering, been there for months, and
so I was like, let's just see what happens here.
And so I looked at her, I said, and the
name Allure Jesus affliction come out of her. And she goes, oh,
starts coughing this thing out and she's totally healed. And
she's like, oh my gosh, that's the wildest thing. And
so I'm like, pray Scott, you know, move on. Next day,

(52:45):
same conference, she comes back to me. She says, last
night I had, Uh, a demonic thing happened. She had
this dream where a demon was choking me and I
woke up and I was literally being choked, and uh,
and she said I managed to say Jesus and it stopped,
but she goes, I think it came back, and she
had the cough had come back, and I'm like, okay,

(53:05):
that's a little weird.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Now.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
We had just done an episode on Remnant Radio and
I borrowed a lot of Doug van Dorn's content for
this on the chimera. Is there such a thing, you know,
sort of mixture thing? And I remember one of the
passages we went to was out of Isaiah. I think
it's forty nine. If I'm not mistaken about the screech owl.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
Yeah, it's not really a screech owl. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
No, it seems pretty apparent that this is not just
some night creature that you see in your English Bibles,
that it's.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
The sepuagen.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
The Greek version of the Old Testament used the word lilith,
which you know, in some ancient lore is considered a
demon that would try to kill people in the night.
And so I was like, huh, here she's describing her symptoms.
This thing tried to kill her in the middle of
the night. And I'm going walks like a duck, wacks
like a duck. They'll see what happens, and so I

(53:55):
looked at her and I said, Lilith, come out of her.
And she turned to me and she goes, you know,
f you and I was like, oh. So her husband
was like uh oh with me, and so I'm like, Lilith,
how did you get here? What allows you to be
in here? And she says, I've always been here And

(54:17):
I said when did you get in? She said she
was born with me. And they're like, oh, okay, how
many generations back our grandmother? She kind of growls at me,
and I said, okay, all right, Lilith repeated after me,
I renounced my claim to this person. I named the
person and then sarcastic at the demon, was like, I

(54:38):
renounced my claim to and then said the person and
I said, and all future generations, and she goes, I
know what you're doing. You're trying to trick me. I said,
say the words and all future generations, and she said
and all future generations. I said, now, come out of her,
and so she came out of her, and that was
kind of the end of that. Now, So I talked

(55:00):
to the woman about what had happened there and just
walked her through some prayers. You know, asking the Lord
to kind of step in and help her to do
life because all she's ever known is living with that spirit.
And so she tells me that the next day and
realized this is over three four days.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Of conference stuff.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, she tells me the next day, like that night
she went out to dinner and she just didn't even
know what she wanted to eat. She's like, I just
feel like so empty. And I'm like, yeah, it's because
this is all you've ever known, Like it's appetite was
your appetite, and you're trying to figure out who you
are apart from this because that played such a significant
part in your own personality.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
It was so intertwined.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Totally use the word upbraided when he talks about a
demon that he cast out of a Christian woman. He says,
when this thing was upbraided, And I think that it
perfectly describes the kind of things I'm saying when demonic
entities have been living with somebody for quite a while,
they don't know the difference between it and that demon.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
Well, in parts a lot of times will confuse you.
That's important.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, Yeah, so she you know, sweet woman, but she's
having to figure out life apart from that thing.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
Wow, that's interazing.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
The beautiful thing is I know her pastor and I'm
able to kind of follow up. Yeah, I hope I'm
not sharing any confidentially, no one's gonna be able to
figure out who this woman is. I want to make
sure to keep her identity protected. But anyway, that's one
of the more weird demonic things I've seen. I think
that kind of you know, and there's some some I
don't know. I would say extra biblical practice and that
I know that renunciation is a thing, and I would

(56:29):
normally have a person renounced, but in this case, the
person was taken over and so yeah, and I figured, well,
if it worked for us, why not for them? And
that was sort of my deduction there. And I'm not
saying that you should do that. I'm just saying that's
what I did, and I hope I did the right thing.
I do know that she got set free. That I
can say pretty defederatively. Yeah, well, we're at least I am.

(56:49):
I think Lindsay kind of is too. We're more prima
scripturists versus sola, so we allow for little tea traditions,
you know.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
Things that they were prima meaning premacy. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
the whole renunciation thing, and then you know, and then
even incorporating things that are outside the Bible that don't
explicitly go against the Bible that we go more there,
which is okay. I mean, we have two different camps
in the body of Christ.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
So I'm probably similar in practice when it comes to Yeah,
you know, like I don't mind incorporating certain things that
are not forbidden, but I'm not going to make a
rule out of it. I'm not here to be the
doctrine or a practice out of it. It's not won
scriptures promise it yet.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, so that's kind of how I interpret the Yeah,
solo scriptura, which sounds to me like it's semantics at
that point because practice looks the same.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean no one really does pure
solo scriptura, No one.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Oh no, I mean yeah, yeah, I get where they
were doing with agelicals who are harping on sola scriptura.
Oh ye, way they practice communion.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Ask Jesus at your heart, where's that solo scriptura? Right right?
Come down in front of I mean, we've actually this
is one of my big hobby horses. We've actually replaced it.
I'm not Church of Christ by any means. We've actually
replaced baptism by the asked Jesus into your Heart prayer,
when when the early Church baptism was their sinner's prayer,
and we've replaced it absolutely. And I'm not saying, oh,

(58:08):
everybody needs to quit doing center's prayers. You're all bad.
That's their discretion. Though. Was it that wrote that book,
Don't Ask Jesus into your Heart? Was it they was
a Baptist guy or something.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Anyway, I prayed to ask I asked Him into my
heart like twenty times when I first became a Christian
at fifteen. Oh, I didn't know the first time was
supposed to take, and so I just kept asking every night.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
Well I've been baptized three times, so finally took. But anyway, well, Michael, look,
we've enjoyed having you on the show. There's so much
more that I really want to talk to you about,
but I might just have to save it for another time,
another subject the show. So, but we appreciate you here

(58:51):
and tell your elder hello in your studio, Hello, Hello,
and I appreciate everything you do. I appreciate your show,
your show is and this is not flattery. It's an
anchor because it's balanced and and we need that in
the Charismatic church particularly, but in the Evangelical Church as

(59:13):
a whole, and even even even Catholics and and other
that will be outside of our our Protestant realm, they
need something like like you. I mean, I have a
Catholic friend that listens to your show all the time.
So well, I mean, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
That's that's so cool. I mean, I hope we are.
You know, everybody thinks they're balanced, everybody thinks they're scriptural.
I really that is an attempt, an endeavor in the goal.
So I hope that's exactly.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
I think intention is important, and this is where where
I sound new ag. But I still we don't have
a good doctrine in the Body of Christ of intention.
I think we try to call it faith, but I
think it needs to be more than faith, and it
might just be repentance. Like Jesus said he was his
mind was set like flint to go to Jerusalem. I
think that's that's intention. And Dallas Wheeler really brought it
out with his v I M his VIM vision and

(01:00:00):
tension and means the way of doing. You know, formation
and intention is important. That's how we know whether and
we got this I think from sword and Staff. They
used to say blessed, baptize, or burn. And you can
either bless something it's biblical, you can baptize it it's
not anti biblical or not for forbidden, or you can
burn it like a Oigi board. You know, there is

(01:00:20):
no Holy Spirit weedgi board, even though they are being
advertised on Amazon. There's in a game section of Target.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Dude, there's no baby in that bath water.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Yeah, there's nothing redeemable about it. Nothing redeemable, and there
are plenty of things that are. There's nothing redeemable and
I need to say that. So but anyway, well, thank
you so much, Michael Deets. Where can people find you?
I know you have Remnant Radio, they can find you
on there. But what about your personal ministry? Do you
do personal ministry one on one with people or is

(01:00:50):
it just strictly I do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
But I don't. I don't do it online. So the
only personal ministry I do is when with people at
my church.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I'm a pastor.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Yeah, at the end of the day, I'm an elder
at a local unity and we get a ton of
requests coming in because of my social media footprint for deliverance.
I don't do any deliverance online with people. I'll oftentimes
meet with pastors who need help because I feel like
if I can teach the pastor, then he can do
it with his people. So anyway, yeah, you can find me.
Thomasministries dot org is where I have sort of my

(01:01:19):
itinerant stuff that I do, and so if you want
to come to a local event or those kind of things,
you can go to Thomas Ministry dot org. But every
Sunday I'm usually at my church and then you can
find us on a limit radio. It's called Reclamation Reclamation Church.
We're in Denver, just on the south side of Denver Proper.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
And then ye know what else. I don't know what
else I have.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I think that's a I have an Overcomers Journal, which
is all about the truth encounter type stuff. That's what
I did to help overcome my stronghold of the mind issue.
So you can go to Overcomers Journal dot com and
you can see that there. It's a great, great tool
to help people get free from those kinds of things.
So a lot of pastors will buy them and give
them to people that are dealing with strongholds. But yeah,

(01:02:03):
that's that's kind of where where I'm at.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Cool. Well, thank you so much, Michael, of course, thanks
for listening and supporting us, and remember stay naturally supernaturally

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
H you are listening to the Fringe radio network frinradionetwork

(01:03:34):
dot com.