Iron & Myth 45: The Book of Jasher - A View From The Bunker - Fringe Radio Network

Episode Transcript
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This is a view from the bunker. Now here's Derek Gilbert.

Speaker 5 (00:52):
Sudipigerfu.

Speaker 6 (00:54):
Another book with a name on it? Or is it
a name at all that isn't in the Bible? Should
we read it? And if so, what should we get
out of it? We're talking about the Book of I
think most of us would say Jasher, but it's in Hebrew,
and I had my Bible softer pronounce this for me.
So this is how I know Jasher. We'll probably say
Jasher just to keep it easy. Welcome to Iron and

(01:16):
Myth and joining me once again, my esteemed panel of
friends and scholars pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church of
Northern Colorado. Author of Jia's Sons of the Gods, Rings
of Revelation, The Angel of the Lord, and many other books.
Doug Van Dorn, the best selling author, an award winning screenwriter,
author most recently of Judah Maccabee Parts one and two,

(01:40):
Brian Goadawa, and the director of the Institute of Biblical Anthropology,
and well, we pray that we are getting him back
on the connection. It's we've had to deal with this
in months past, Doctor Judd Burton. The Book of Jasher
or yah Cher, which actually means.

Speaker 7 (02:01):
Keep it anglicized.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
Here we go.

Speaker 8 (02:03):
It's the Chicagouys Yeasher.

Speaker 6 (02:07):
Well, you got two Chicago ins here, so you'll watch it. Joshuer,
which is actually means book of the upwriter, book of
the just Man, so it's not actually a name at all.
There have been a number of books that throughout the
ages have purported to be the Book of Josher mentioned

(02:28):
in Joshua ten and Second Samuel one. The one that
we looked at was one that you shared with us, Doug,
which is a translation that was done in the late
nineteenth century or actually mid nineteenth century eighteen forty by
a fellow named Moses Samuel, And this is probably a

(02:49):
medieval Jewish text, which probably doesn't go back any farther
than the fifteenth century. So we're looking at something that
is quite a bit removed from the Biblical text. And
I guess, Doug is a pastor, I'll toss it to
you first, what benefit would there be to us as
Christians looking at a a book that is, essentially it

(03:16):
looks like a medieval rabbinic commentary on the Old Testament
or parts of the Old Testament.

Speaker 8 (03:23):
So I guess that that answer to me depends on
what kind of a book this actually really truly is
what I sent you, guys, turns out to have been
a publication from the Mormons, and so there's this long
introduction in it. And I didn't realize this, but the
Mormons really hold this particular book in pretty.

Speaker 5 (03:44):
High esteem, and I think, yeah, they do.

Speaker 8 (03:46):
I think that Joseph Smith and I don't know Brigham Young,
they seem to have been familiar with this book. So
I don't know. If I don't know that, you know
that right there might keep a lot of people from
reading it. And say, well, if the Mormons think it's good,
then I don't. I decided to kind of take a
deep dive with AI on this because I couldn't find

(04:08):
anything that really satisfied my questions, and I wanted it
to just look at the internal evidence in the English translation.
I didn't try to find the Hebrew or anything like that,
just internal evidence and try and find what it thought
might be a providence an origin for these various stories

(04:29):
that are in it. And it was really interesting what
it came up with. So I told it, do not
look at any other sources, you know, no journal articles,
no Wikipedia, don't get a bias, just read the text,
tell me what you think. And it basically came up
with a series of different kinds of stories that it

(04:54):
thought went from the Babylonian exile in origin all the
way up through kind of the early centuries of the
Common Era. And that was like really surprising, because when
you ask it questions about this book, it will be like, yeah,
pretty much just just making stuff up in the Middle Ages,

(05:14):
and yet the stories themselves, like well, I remember when
I first read this book years ago, I'm like, this
is this is unlike anything.

Speaker 6 (05:22):
I've ever read.

Speaker 8 (05:23):
And I really had a hard time believing that this
is just some you know, some forgery that there it
feels like. And you know, I have books like this
forgery on the Book of Og that supposedly Ogg wrote.
If you guys read that, yeah, I mean you read
that and you go, this is ridiculous. But you read
this book and it's just it's so weird. It's got

(05:45):
such fantastical stories, and and and it reads like Homer
at times, and and so if you know, the reason
I'm saying this is because to answer your question, if
it's a late medieval for that's one thing. And even
if it's coming from late rabbis that are somehow you know,

(06:05):
maybe they had some kind of a book for a
little while, that's one thing. But if if this thing
actually does preserve stories that go back that far, which
then would be commentaries from probably a priestly group of Jews,
you know, at various points in time in their history,

(06:26):
then I think it's almost invaluable in terms of the
things that it can teach us about what those people
were thinking their reflections on the scripture. And I'll just
finish by saying this, one of the I was at
Blurry Creatures, this last week and I gave a talk.
My talk was on how the rabbis of the second

(06:46):
century were deliberately tampering with certain texts on especially the
son of God. So Deuteronomy thirty two eight they change
son of sons of God to sons of Israel. It's
all maybe two one where the God stands in the
midst of the gods and holds judgment among the gods
in the Divine Council. That this has changed to the

(07:08):
sons of the Mighty instead of sons of God. And
then you get kind of the desupernaturalization Palm one hundred
and ten, where Melchizedek is in the Dead Sea scrolls,
seems to be begotten before the morning becomes something totally ordinary,
and on and on, And I'm like, all right, this
Book of Jasher doesn't. On one hand, it actually retains

(07:32):
some of those changes, but on the other it's like
so weirdly supernatural that that seems very much against the
way that the rabbis of the second century onwards started
reading like Genesis six and those kinds of stories. So, man,
I think that this book is just interesting on all
kinds of levels.

Speaker 6 (07:54):
Uh yeah, let me talss with to you, Brian, I
know that you drew on a lot of external sources
for inspiration for Chronicles of the Nephylene, Chronicles of the Watchers,
Chronicles of the Apocalypse, that sort of thing.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
And if nothing else, I think the.

Speaker 5 (08:10):
Book of Jasher, like.

Speaker 6 (08:14):
The the Enochic literature of the Second Temple period, gives
a window into what Jewish religious scholars were thinking about
the Old Testament.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
What did you draw from Jasher?

Speaker 7 (08:27):
Yeah, boy, that's a good question. It is true. It
is an interesting book, It definitely is. Yeah, I did
actually when I was when I'm writing my novels, I'm
actually drawing from other ancient Jewish and Christian traditions. And
I don't have to believe that they're absolutely true, because

(08:48):
part of my purpose is to communicate through my stories
ancient Jewish and Christian traditions.

Speaker 5 (08:55):
You know.

Speaker 7 (08:56):
It's sort of like sort of like what what books
like Jasher I think are doing. And even Jubilees and such,
you know, they're like like retelling Bible stories for their
new generation type of thing. You know, That's kind of
what I'm doing, and so I you know, I'm able
to draw from that for fictional purposes. Would I then
say that, oh, they're absolutely true or historical. No, not necessarily,

(09:18):
but yeah, there were some really key elements that I
drew from Jeshure that were really unusual. For example, you know,
it does talk about Abraham being around during the days
of Nimrod. It talks about how it has this whole
story about how Abraham was was born, and the wise
men and Nimrod's council, you know, read the stars and

(09:42):
claimed that the you know, a king was going to
be born, and so Nimrod wanted to kill him, right,
kind of that sounds like Jesus a little bit. But
but and so he, you know, he goes and he
tries to kill Abraham as a little infant, and there's
a whole little story about how Abraham's father, Tara, who
was actually a counselor too, or a lead counselor in

(10:03):
some way to Nimrod. So how he sort of like
tricked him and gave him another baby, and Nimrod killed
dashed this other baby's head on the floor. And so
Abraham was was able to grow up in a cave
apart in Noah's cave. I think it was until he
was old enough, you know, So it's this fascinating old
story that you know, uh, that's in Jashure. I drew

(10:25):
from it for sure in my Abraham Allegiant novel, as
well as the fact that it also claims that Nimrod
was called Amraphel, who was one of these kings that
was in the battle I think with the seven kings
in was it Genesis seventeen.

Speaker 6 (10:41):
Yeah, the nine Kings in Genesis nine.

Speaker 9 (10:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (10:44):
Yeah, So I actually incorporated that into my storyline as
well to make it all work. And it was really fun,
and and yeah, there's lots of more. There's there's many
other you know, some names of characters and such. I
drew from them. But do do I consider it the
book that the Bible is really you know too, Yeah,

(11:04):
And of course, you know, just to we kind of
assume a lot sometimes when we go here. Let me
let me give the two examples in the Bible that
we're talking about. And the first one is in Joshua
ten I'm sorry, yeah, Joshua ten thirteen, and he's talking
about the story of the sun standing still right in

(11:25):
the valley of Ajalon, and it says the sun stood
still and the moon stopped until the nation of Israel
took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in
the book of Yasher of Jashure? The sun stopped in
the midst of the heaven and did not hurry to
set for about a whole day. And there's a in

(11:50):
the book of Joshure then that we're referring to. Of course,
it has a description of the story, and it's very,
very similar in many ways. There's a couple of little
things added, but basically it's the same. It's almost, you know,
taken word for word. Then in Second Samuel one seventeenth
or nineteen, in the septuagen You gotta be careful if
you look at that verse in your English Bibles, you

(12:13):
may not see this. But in the septuagen it has
Then David sang this funeral song over Saul and over Jonathan,
his son. So this is during the days of David
and Saul. Jonathan's dead, and he sings this song and
it says, and he ordered the bow to be taught
to the children of Judah. Look it is written on

(12:35):
the scroll of Jasher. And there's some some you know,
debate over what he's saying. There is this the bow
the name of a song that that then Saul then
has a little song after that, or is it referring
to teaching them the bow? Is the song about teaching
Judah the bow, which we do have in Josh fifty

(13:00):
six y nine where it says Judah is I'm sorry, uh,
what is it?

Speaker 5 (13:07):
Is it?

Speaker 6 (13:07):
Now?

Speaker 7 (13:09):
Help me out here, Guys, Who's who's given the promises
to their sons?

Speaker 5 (13:13):
H Jacob?

Speaker 7 (13:21):
I think it's Jacob.

Speaker 6 (13:23):
Yeah. I think it's Jacob.

Speaker 7 (13:24):
And he's blessing his sons. I think that's the situation.
And he just says Jacobs. And when he gets to Judah,
he says, only teach your sons the use of the
bow and all weapons of war in order that they
may fight the battles of their brother, who will rule
over his enemies. So that's the teaching sons of Judah
the bo right. And so those are the two, you know,

(13:47):
distinct references where the Bible actually says it's written in
the Book of Jasher. There's one other example, but I
wanted to say that, you know, the version we're talking
about here, there's actually a version by Ken Johnson who's
an evangelical Christian, and his is the book that I
read and I would actually recommend people by that because
as an evangelical Christian, you know, he he, you know,

(14:10):
he believes that the Book of Josher, this this one
that we're talking about, could actually be rooted in the
real one. There's there have been scribal changes and stuff
over time. I'm not sure I entirely agree with him.
But he also addresses the Mormon thing and how it's like, yeah,
just because the Mormons did it doesn't mean it's not true,
you know, I mean, you know, it's not their text.

(14:33):
They just did a they published an English translation that
was done decades earlier. So that's not really a problem
for any evangelical Christians. But there's one other example that
Ken Johnson claims is a reference to the Book of
Joshua in the Bible, and it's in the New Testament,
and it's two Timothy three to eight, and that's where

(14:54):
it says Paul is writing and he says, just as
Janis and John Brace opposed Moses, so these men, these
he's talking about, these false teachers, so these men also
oppose truth. Men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the truth. Now,
Ken Johnson claims that that's a reference to Josher. Why

(15:14):
because there's no reference to the names of Janison John
Bres in the Old Testament whatsoever, and they were these
are the names of some of the magicians of Pharaoh
right during the days of Moses. But in the book
of Jasher there are when you're reading the story of Moses,
you hear about Janison John Bres. I don't think that's

(15:36):
a legitimate argument, though, I would not include that verse because,
as we've mentioned already previously on the show, there is
actually an entire suitopigriphal book. Don't know the full provenance
of it, but that's called Janison John Bres, and it
tells the story of Janison John Bres. And it's very

(15:57):
possible that that's where the name was was drawn from,
especially since it was in the same it was in
the same sort of grouping of books at Kumran that
Enoch was, and we know that Enoch was has been
quoted by New Testament authors as well, so it's it's
it could be likely that they're referring to that book.

(16:19):
I don't know for sure, but those are the three
possible cases referred to Jasher so as so me as
a fictional writer, I love this stuff, and I dropped
a bit, you know, and there's examples of the half men,
half beast images hybrid monsters that we always like to
talk about. But I'll to be frank with you, I

(16:39):
never got to read the whole thing through until preparation
for for tonight. And my my general sense as I
was reading it as a writer and as one who's
drawn from all these other suit of pigre for books,
it actually doesn't there's there. It doesn't read to me
like like it's some kind of separate text. It actually

(17:03):
read to me like it follows the Bible, and it's
someone filling out the things that were not in the
Bible and filling in the parts that it talked about Jasher.
That's how it read to me. It was so close
to the Bible that I'm kind of thinking, like, in
some ways you say you can People said it's an
expansion on and when I say that, I mean like
most of Genesis, right, and a little bit of Moses' life.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
And Exodus, right.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
But it just read It read to me like, yeah,
this is someone who's sort of trying to fill in
the holes and explain some of the anomalies in the
Bible as they're writing it again, something that I do
in my own in my own storytelling. I like to
expand in the Bible and I write fiction, but I
make it fit and work with what we do know
in the Bible and try to make sense of the

(17:48):
things we don't know. And that's kind of what it
does as I'm as I was reading it, right, and
it just is strange to me that why would why
would the Bible just be a condensation of what's in
Jasher because that's how it reads to me. And there's
also a lot of you know, uh uh, out of
out of what is it anachronistic references, Hellenistic references. I've

(18:12):
read a lot of Hellenistic literature now, and you know,
you see things like and of course Hellenism can go
from three hundred BC all the way to the Renaissance,
because they were reviving that in the Middle Ages, right
there's they're in the story of Sodom mcgmore. For example,
there's a a very clear reference to the pro Crustian myth,

(18:32):
which was this notion of a guy who had a
bed and if a person didn't fit on the bed,
if their legs were too long, he cut him off
if his legs were too short, he stretched him, you know,
And that's in the story. And there's other examples of
that throughout that made me just go, okay, okay, these
are these are other scribal editions or it's clearly not written,
you know, in that earlier time period. And there's a

(18:54):
lot more examples in that. But keep in mind if
if the Bible particularly, I guess it would have to
be going up to whenever Moses and the editors wrote
from Genesis up to the story of Joshua, because that's
where Joshure ends. I think sometimes in the sometimes in

(19:14):
the days of Joshua, and I read almost the whole book,
but I just haven't finished the last few chapters. But anyway,
so so it has to have been written before Joshua
was written, because there's that reference where it says, ah,
you know, has it you know, he's talking about the
story of Joshua and has it not occurred written in
the Book of Joshure. So so you think, like, okay,

(19:38):
if the Book of Joshua was written around at least,
you know, what would that be after fourteen forty right
after they enter in the Promised Land there, Yeah, yeah,
so I have to be written before Joshua was written,
and so there's so many things in there that to

(19:59):
me and Kate that like this that indicates no, not
that early. Now, having said that, there are also some
interesting things, like I've from what I understand from when
I've little what I've read about the scholarship of it.
The original translator had mentioned that, you know, he first
did not believe that it was ancient, but then as

(20:20):
he studied it, he did believe it was ancient. So
it could be ancient for sure, but he one of
those components was that there were not vow markings, which,
as we know, the Hebrew of vow markings started in
the Middle Ages, so this is probably a lot, maybe
a lot of time before that. So there's there are

(20:42):
some aspects of it that do, at least, you know,
give it a little bit more of a When I
first started, I thought like, is this all just made
up stuff? And as I looked into it, I'm still ambiguous.
I leaned towards it not being But hopefully these are
examples can show you why I think, you know, what

(21:02):
this is worthy of interest in looking into. But like
Doug was saying, there's almost no scholarly articles even written.
I've read a couple of them describing the story and
the provenance of it. And there's the unfortunately, that's the
biggest problem is because of the nature of where it
came from, we don't really know no it it, you know,
where it's suddenly awry arose at that time period in

(21:25):
the sixteen hundreds or whatever. And you know, sadly we
don't know where it originated from. So hopefully maybe we'll
find something in the future, you know, that will give
it an earlier providence.

Speaker 6 (21:37):
But in brave scholars who are who are worried about
losing the reputation by doing a little study on it.

Speaker 7 (21:46):
My conclusion is it read like the way I'm writing
my stuff, which is definitely fiction, fiction with hagiographic you know,
respect for the scriptures.

Speaker 6 (21:57):
Back for a.

Speaker 8 (21:57):
Minute to what we talked about last time with Jubilees.
It's very similar to what you just said that Jubilees
is like this almost commentary on Genesis, right, and this
is very much like that. And I think it's important
to say to listeners because we have this tendency sometimes
to go, oh, we found the Lost Book of Jasher
there's a lot of people out there that say that,

(22:19):
and it's like, no, I don't think we did. It
might have its some roots kind of in those books maybe,
but we didn't find that it's a commentary that somebody
wrote sometime after Babylon all the way up to the
seventeenth century, that we don't know. Yeah, and so treat
it for what it is. Enjoy it. But I want

(22:43):
to It's kind of like that sounds almost like an
ending to the podcast, But I just think it's important
to say that because I know people want to like
that's kind of the big thing, right Josh or Yeah.

Speaker 6 (22:54):
It's not an either or thing. It doesn't have to
be yes or no. It can be okay, no, but yeah.

Speaker 7 (23:00):
Yeah, and let's be let's you know, let's admit within
our circles, there is the tendency to want to believe
it right away, what to believe anything like that, and
we have to be more careful about that and more
responsible in our in our faith.

Speaker 6 (23:17):
Yeah, jud your your assessment, what did you make of
the Book of Jasher.

Speaker 9 (23:24):
Well, in a large part, I'm in agreement with you, guys.
It is interesting that amongst the extra biblical material, but
I should say the popular stuff I think Doug is referencing,
you know, Jubilees and the Book of Enoch, or at

(23:44):
least one Enoch that Jasher is often lumped in as
as having equal merit or equal weight, and I do
think that we do need to put a disclaimer. Nonetheless,
there are some interesting things about this book, and I
like the way that Doug put it, uh in so

(24:06):
far as that they're there are stretches of Jashure that
read like Homer. They're they're almost they harken almost to
the oral lyrical telling of Bardic traditions around the world.

(24:30):
And this may be a although although tracing the the
the textual let's say, origins of Jashure are problematic on
on levels of palaeography and and that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
HM.

Speaker 9 (24:49):
What we may be looking at is it a distillate
of oral tradition uh in some ways, or or at
least preservation the pieces of oral tradition that that the
Hebrews had had kept for some time. You know, if
you read Jesture, like we've pointed out tonight, that it

(25:11):
it follows the genesis narrative. It just sort of expounds
in a manner not dissimilar to the other apocryphal literature
on the how did Brian put it? All the weird
stuff that we like, the hybrids and giants and things
like that, But I think that there are some there

(25:32):
are also some interesting and compelling stories in there. The
Nemrod arc that that Brian mentioned I think is very interesting,
and especially the demise of Nemrod at the hands of Esau. Uh,
it is an interesting twist. And reading the passage, the
canonical passage in Genesis about when Jacob returned or not Jacob,

(25:57):
but when Esau returns to from the field, he's quite
distraught when he encounters his brother Jacob, and then everybody's
familiar with the selling of the birth right. It throws
an interesting light on that story when you look at
the account and jeshure of Esau's dispatchment of Nimrod while

(26:21):
on a hunt. So again you know there, I think
I think Jasher is valuable, but but we we want
to take that with maybe an extra grain or grain
of salt or too. In terms of stacking it's merit
up against something like the Genesis apocryphate, orgy Believe or
Enoch or something like that.

Speaker 5 (26:42):
I thought it was interesting.

Speaker 9 (26:43):
Again, I think I think anthrologically, just sort of looking
at this like an ethnographer, where there they are parts
of this that look like distilled oral tradition.

Speaker 6 (26:54):
Yeah, and some of the anachronisms that may dated more
to the Middle Ages that uh caught my eye. Let's
see here when you get to where was this this
in Jashure chapter ten and the children of Gomer according
to their cities where the frankom the Franks, the French

(27:18):
who did not exist in the days of Gomer, who dwell.

Speaker 9 (27:24):
You know, they were around, They were around.

Speaker 6 (27:28):
And they will, yeah, make makes in your general direction.

Speaker 9 (27:36):
The proper, proper Bonnipathon commentary.

Speaker 6 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, Franza by the river Franza by the river Senna,
the river Sin. I mean again, these did not exist
at the time of the writing of this. And then
in verse fifteen the Lombardi who dwell opposite the mountains
of Job and sat. Then they conquered the land of Italia,

(28:00):
which again the Lombards and the Italians did not exist
at the time of the writing of Genesis X of
the s Lavitica's numbers Deuteronomy, et cetera.

Speaker 7 (28:10):
So there was that and there's a lot on Rome.
They go into Rome a lot. We know Rome was
around five hundred BC, right, so there's a lot of
stories about Rome, yeah, coming in and even explicitly Romans, right,
and so yeah that that.

Speaker 6 (28:24):
Yeah, there was a there was again an account which
was kind of strange, where they did this sort of
diversion in Jashure, chapter seventeen seems to be up at
the history of the Romans and the Etruscans. In the
ninety first year of the life of Abram, the children
of Chetim, which should be Rome, made war with the

(28:44):
children of Tubaal and the children of Tuball Dwelt in Tuscana, Tuscany.
That's where the Etruscans lived, and they called the name Sabina.
Those are the Sabines and other tribes tribe that the
Romans in the Latins did a lot of war with
back in the sixth century PC and afterwards. So again
there were some there's a reference to the river Tiber

(29:05):
in there as well, so some some anachronisms that do
point to this being a much later, uh, some later
interpolations into the biblical text.

Speaker 8 (29:15):
Yeah, I have a question for jet about that, right,
So what's that whole idea that when Greece goes into
the ancient eries, then they take back their myths and
they kind of re replace them and they put them
in their own geographical area.

Speaker 9 (29:32):
Yeah, orientalism.

Speaker 8 (29:34):
Yeah, you think that that could be something that we
could be looking at with that.

Speaker 9 (29:37):
Yeah, potentially. I don't see why not. I mean, the
you know, we talked about cultural appropriation today, it was
definitely something that that was practiced by ancient people too.

Speaker 7 (29:50):
Yeah, well everybody. Yeah, I mean that's been my that's
been that's been my big message forever. You know, the
Bible God himself appropriates pig imagery like Leviathan and such,
and so it's just normal. It's normal to do. And
I think it's fine on one level.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
You know.

Speaker 6 (30:08):
Yeah, again, very interesting, and it doesn't necessarily mean that
they're historically wrong. Actually that you know, the children of
Gomer Okay, I would argue that they're probably the Chimerians
who settled in Central Asia, but whatever, I think these
are perhaps Middle Medieval rabbis who were saying, yeah, we

(30:29):
know where these people eventually settled and who they became. So, yes,
the children of so and so became the children of you.
Know who've settled in the land of the Franks and
settled in the land of Italy, and became the Sabines
and the Etruscans and the Italians and so forth. What
I did find interesting getting back to the idea of
the desupernaturalization of things over the centuries by the Rabbis

(30:54):
in chapter four of Jasher. If you were reading through
Jasher and looking for the story of the nepheline, you
might skip right over it if you weren't watching carefully,
because you find it in verse eighteen of Joshure chapter four.
And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of
men and took their wives by force from their husbands

(31:16):
according to their choice. That's as close as you get
as the sons of God going into the daughters of men.
And there's no reference, for you know, the creation of
giants or anything like that. The sons of men in
those days took from the cattle of the earth, the
beasts of the field, and the fowls of the air,
and taught the mixture of animals of one species with

(31:37):
the other, which comes out of first Enoch. And in
order therewith to provoke the.

Speaker 8 (31:44):
Lord is also important for later on in the story,
for example, when Esau meets those like chimeric weird creatures. Right,
So that's that's kind of a little bit of foreshadowing
even for the book itself.

Speaker 6 (31:57):
Yeah, but that is what provoked the Lord and God
saw the hollow earth in him. It was corrupt for
all flesh and corrupted his ways upon the earth, all
men and all animals, which kind of calls back again
to first Knock, But it's certainly not in Genesis six,
and it certainly de supernaturalizes Genesis Sex and doug is.
As you know, until the second century a d. The

(32:19):
standard teaching among the rabbis was that, yeah, there was
a supernatural co mingling of these spirit beings with human
women and the creation of creation of the giants. But
that's just right out, that's just written right out of.

Speaker 8 (32:36):
Jasher, which tells me that it's it's coming later than
Christianity's arrival exactly.

Speaker 6 (32:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (32:50):
And also Ken Johnson makes the argument that he thinks
that there is a lot of references in the Taumud
to these stories in Jasher, and he argues that it
indicates that the Talmud was after Jasher, not the reverse
you know, you could look into that, but yeah, because

(33:12):
there's also stories that, yeah, kind of interesting is to
do the triangulation, you know, which is what I did
when I was doing research. And of course the advantage
when you're writing fiction is, you know, you get to
choose the better story, not necessarily the one you think
is the most correct, you know, but the one that's
the better story. But yeah, so there's this example in

(33:35):
Jasher a couple of things during Moses time, like, for instance,
there's this whole description of Moses going down to Ethiopia,
defeating the King of Kush, marrying an Ethiopian princess, and
becoming a king of Kush right before the forty before
the fortieth year where he leaves right and there's there's
kind of problems with that in some level, but it
turns out that Josephus also references that in his anti equities, right,

(34:01):
And and there's another story where when he when Moses
does that, he goes through this valley on the way
to Cush, and that's where he encounters these flying seraphine,
the fiery flying seraphine serpents, And you couldn't go through
the valley because they would kill all the soldiers, so
he came up with this plan to to you know,

(34:24):
Jasher says that he comes up with the plan to
let these storks go because storks, would you know, kill
the or take the uh yeah, kill the kill the
snakes ahead of the soldiers, and that allowed the soldiers
to go through. Josephis says that they're ibises, which is
actually more historically accurate. But I drew from that story
as well from my Moses novel because I thought was
so cool and I wanted to tell, well, what may

(34:45):
have happened to Moses before he left Egypt, you know.
But Joshuer has those stories as well. And but my
point is is that Josephus refers to them as well.
Is he referring to the Book of Joshure don't know.
But what it does does do is it brings you
an independent source of these stories that certainly a Jewish

(35:07):
historian at least had respect enough to put in his histories.
I found that interesting enough. That was in fact, that
was one of the motives for me that if I've
got these veryous stories, which ones should I choose and use?
Well the one that Josephus also has, even though it
sounds fantastical, like flying serpents, right, but still he's pretty
cool historian. And the fact that it's in both those

(35:28):
sources that that, you know, made something interesting enough for
me to tell my in my story of Moses as well.
So yeah, that's an interesting thing to find some of
these other stories referenced in other ancient sources, which makes
it more interesting.

Speaker 6 (35:45):
The sense I got and I used with the word haziographical,
which is a term that's often applied to the lives
of the medieval saints, where you see a fantastical story
like a young woman who's you know, virtuous, and she
just prayed continuously and some evil king saw how beautiful
she was and you know, wanted to take her and
ravish her, but before he could get to her, the

(36:07):
ground would open up and swallow him up to the
neck or something that that's kind of the sense I
got with what was done to Moses and to Abraham
in particular here where there's some real expansion on their stories,
like you know, the the conflict between Abraham and Nimrod,

(36:28):
and you know, you know, making Moses the king of
cush before he comes back to Egypt, and let's we
even see a little bit of that. Actually in the
Masoretic text. Sharon and I noticed this and comparing it
to the Subtu Agent, where in the Subtu Agent there
there is no reference to for example, when David goes

(36:48):
out in the battlefield against Saul and you remember saw
rather a goliath and Saul says, who is that person
on the battlefield, where, if you've been reading the text
carefully up to that point, is like King, he spend
your arm bearer for the last year. I mean, uh,
you know, and that's not in the Subtuagen. It's like
the mazerits decided to you know, it's like we need

(37:11):
a little more action right there, we need a little
more conflict. Let's you know, build the tension here, Let's
make it bigger. You kind of get that sense that
that's what was done with you know, Abraham Moses Jacob
in in the Book of Jasher. But you know, Jeded,
I'll throw this to you for your opinion. I mean,
does that necessarily make Jasher bad or untrustworthy?

Speaker 9 (37:36):
No, because I mean, if we're treating we're treating Joshers
as at least in part hagiography. You know, hagiography is
not uh, it's not completely. It's not completely fantastical. I

(37:59):
took a course in medieval hagiography in grad school, and
I know this will shock all of you, but I
took an anthropological take on hagiography. And you know, notice
that even in hagiography, there are these elements of popular

(38:19):
culture and lore that were socially and culturally and religiously
significant to the communities that they came out of, the
monastic ones to begin with, largely, and then of course
the communities that they serve. And I think if you
look at parts of Joshure and that respect, and you know,

(38:40):
that's a layer of value that I think we can
add to Jasher. So I have no qualms, you know,
looking at Jashures as hagiography if it's basically the same
kind of thing that's taking place. You know, if you
if you read you know, the Life of Saint Anthony

(39:01):
or any of a number of particularly the early had geographies,
you're going to find a lot of the same kinds
of things. So I think, I think, I think Jasher's
had giographical value is probably the one that's overlooked quite
a bit in considering its merit.

Speaker 7 (39:24):
And let's not forget, folks, the Bible. Is hegiographic too?
Of Chronicle. The Books of Chronicles makes David look a
lot better than he does in the Books of Samuel.
A lot of certain sins are left out of there
deliberately in order not to lie, not to say, oh,
it didn't happen, But they're making a particular thematic point.

(39:45):
So you can still support the biblical inerrancy or you know,
the biblical authority. But the point is is that everybody,
even the Bible, even Got himself, engages in a literary
motifs like hagiography. I don't know, I don't know if
I'm saying it right or not. Is it hagiography versus hagiography?

Speaker 9 (40:07):
I always say, you know, yeah, the vernacular's hagiography, but
it's it's from the Greek word audios for for whole.

Speaker 7 (40:15):
Oh okay, yeah, okay. Anyway, so that's an interesting case. Yeah, okay.
But you know, I like to bring up these things
because you know, as a writer, you know, it's obviously
it's something that it's my sandbox, and I, you know,
I deal with it a lot with the Christian world
because a lot of Christians, you know, we have such

(40:37):
a desire to maintain the fidelity, holiness, and sacredness of
God's word that we start to impose our own modern
categories on it without realizing it. And some of those
categories are these things of hagiography, historical, what's the word,

(41:04):
you know, Like in genealogies, there's there's a very strong
theological messaging that is used in biblical genealogies that are
not literal, the biggest one being Jesus's own genealogy in Matthew.
You know it's not you know, it says there's fourteen,
fourteen and fourteen generations, but there's not. There's more than that,

(41:26):
but there's it's making a theological point. And I think
once these are some of these elements of us appreciating
the ancient literary uh. And it's not just ancient, you know,
I mean, it's a literary technique that fiction writers like
me used today. And so it's always a big concern
of me that that people really understand this and appreciate

(41:47):
rather than reacting with the sort of you know, rejection
of anything that's not you know, understanding God's word as
in their modern scientific, precise categories.

Speaker 6 (42:01):
And this I think knee jerk reaction that anything that
would question the the beliefs that they've grown up with.
Often will will be rejected out of hand. I mean,
we did a whole program on that, on the criticism

(42:23):
directed at the Light doctor Michael Heiser because he dared
to say that the small g gods of the Pagans
were real, even though that you know, we as Christians
understand that by definition, Satan is a spirit being, and
Paul literally referred to the gods of the Pagans as
demons and them teaching doctrines of demons. But you know, oh, no, no, no,

(42:47):
the Lord, our God, God is one. Okay, Yes, there's
some really interesting things here that caught my eye regarding
Abraham again, getting to this idea that hey, geography, the
fact that Tara hid him in a cave and brought
him provisions. It's like, sort of this was like Zeus
being hidden from Cronos, you know, after Chronos was given

(43:10):
the Big Rock by Rhea, after Chronos eight six kids,
Rhea detected a pattern and hid Zeus in a cave
and fed him there, and then Abraham was sent off
to live with Noah and Shem and he grew up
in the House of Noah and shem and Jasher says
there was not a man found on in those days,

(43:31):
in the whole earth who knew the Lord, for they
each served his own God, except Noah and his household.
And then just five verses later, and Abram still continued
to speak within himself, Who is he who made the
heavens and the earth, who created upon earth? Where is he?
Maybe it's the sun, Maybe it's the moon, Like wait
a minute, five verses earlier, he was just raised up

(43:53):
by Noah being taught that God is God like. But
maybe for dramat attention, they needed to, you know, come
up with a different plot.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (44:05):
It's interesting again as a window into what Jewish religious
teachers were thinking about the Torah and Torah plus Joshua
back centuries ago. Any final thoughts on the on the book,

(44:27):
I mean, I think it was interesting to me just
to get it from that standpoint, just to understand what
was perhaps tweaked a little bit and and what was
perhaps expanded upon because it was considered important by medieval rabbis.
And that's that's my assessment. That it was probably sometime

(44:48):
in the Middle Ages, after people named the Sabines and
the Franks and the Etruscans and the you know and
so on had manifested upon the earth.

Speaker 8 (44:59):
What do you guys think about the whole arc of
the god clothing atom and the skin of the serpent,
and then this kind of gives him control over the beast.
And then this cloak is passed down. But then Nimrod
comes in he steals the thing or he gets it,
and then as soon as he puts it on he
becomes like this powerful hunter. And then Esau comes and

(45:22):
he he kills Nimrod and takes the floak, and so
then you get that whole biblical story there of the
furry cloak, right idea. And then Jacob is the one
who ends up with it, which kind of, you know,
it's kind of a Jewish polemic that it's Israel who
has the power of Eden not eat them. So now

(45:46):
those are kinds of when you when you read an
arc like that, that you're seeing that these aren't just
stories for their own sake. They have a purpose in
the book.

Speaker 7 (45:55):
Yeah, and they are integrated and literarily put together. Absolutely,
there's a whole series of you know, time period from
Jacob to Joseph. You know that the Bible doesn't address.
And there's all these stories of the wars of the
Edomites with Israel and with Egypt and stuff, and it's
all tied in with that eternal perpetual war between Esau

(46:19):
and Jacob, you know. And by the way that I
have that skin story in my Abraham Legian novel too.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
It's very interested.

Speaker 7 (46:28):
I got a lot in there.

Speaker 6 (46:29):
It was fun.

Speaker 7 (46:31):
But yeah, and so yeah, there was something I wanted
to say too, is that I noticed that there was
a whole theological thread of edom and Esau going through
the text as well. And you're right, Doug, it really
does point up the fact that this much like the
way people critique the Bible, and again, this isn't the

(46:52):
isn't scripture, but you know, it does show that, no,
this isn't just somewhat editor who's thrown together a bunch
of stories to try to make it make it work.
It's someone who has crafted carefully crafted thematic narratives throughout.
These are good writers, right, good writers. But having said that,
my concluding statement is that let us never forget that,

(47:12):
you know the difference between my my stories and this
story is I do have a problem with the I
don't have a problem with into Jews, you know, retelling
the Bible stories and such. But when they make the
pretense that it's either scripture or like this is God's
oral word written down right, or in the case of Jashure,

(47:34):
the pretense is this is that missing book that the
creature is referring to, that's where it becomes That's what
becomes dangerous, because that is an accusation that I if
I don't as I don't support it. It's like that
makes it, you know, uh, certainly of a higher of

(47:54):
a higher danger than than just some text written by
Jews who are expressing their beliefs type of thing, If
that makes sense.

Speaker 8 (48:03):
That's a great point, Brian, and it's important for the
larger idea of sudipigraf in general, right, because it's a
double edged sword, because you have books that are being
attributed to these famous people, and that's the idea of
that is to give them credibility, but then you actually
ironically lose credibility because they're not written by those ancient people,

(48:24):
and that ends up creating skepticism. You think about New
Testament critical scholarship and how they'll say Peter didn't actually
write Tewod Peter. Ju didn't write Jude. It's Sudapigrifa, and
so they cast, you know, a dark shadow on the scripture.
And it's because of exactly what you're talking about. You know,

(48:46):
we call this the Book of Jasher. The same thing
with Enoch. We call it the Book of Enoch. And
it's not even really one book. It's at least five books.
So that's an important thing for people to understand when
they're and they're reading sudapigrapha. It's called suda pigrapha for
a reason. But that's that can have positive and negative implications.

Speaker 7 (49:08):
And some are certainly more pretentious than others, right, you know,
like Jameson Jenbras, if I was writing a story, I'm
gonna write the story of Janison Jenbras, and I called
the Book of Janson Johnbras, and here's the story. You know,
I don't see that the same as as claiming, hey,
this is the lost book.

Speaker 8 (49:24):
Right Joseph and Asenath another great example, like nobody would
ever think that this is actually a story that is
oral tradition. It's a love story. All you have is
read the book. That's very different than exactly what you're
saying here like, this is the Book of Jasher, and
that's what people end up thinking. And maybe this in
some ways, because there is a lost book called Jasher,

(49:46):
that this could be in one way the most dangerous
of all of these suitopigraph for that very reason, even
though it's not really a dangerous book. But you know
what I'm.

Speaker 6 (49:57):
Saying, Yeah, judge your thoughts, you're any concluding thoughts on
the on the Book of Jasher.

Speaker 9 (50:05):
Well, one of the interesting things that Jasher leaves to
us is the is the mystery of its origins. And
and it would be nice if if the fragments that
would lead us to that were in some antiquarians attic
or something somewhere, and uh, we could find that. I'm

(50:27):
not sure that that will happen before the Lord returns,
but who knows. But I would again just echo everybody
here that people read Jasher.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
Well.

Speaker 6 (50:40):
Once again, we've been dealing with the gremlins in Judd's Tablet,
which I thought we had thought we had licked but
apparently not so much well better than it was last month.
Up and there he's back again. At least it clipped
you off right at the end of a sentence, So
edit it will be easier.

Speaker 9 (50:58):
Well, it seemed to pick up towards the end of
our recording. It was doing fun there for a while.
But there's a gun again.

Speaker 6 (51:14):
That's so weird.

Speaker 7 (51:16):
Hey, if anyone's interested, there's one. There's I found one interesting,
good scholarly article. It's a clipped out of a book,
but you can google it or AI. It's called The
Mysterious Book of Jasher by an Arthur A. Chill C
H I E. L. It's a scholarly article writing about
the most that we can know about the providence of

(51:37):
this book that we're talking about Asher versus the other ones,
the medieval forgery and the one that actually hasn't been translated.

Speaker 6 (51:46):
I think, okay, well, I will look that up and
I'll put that in the show notes below, where you
will also find links to the websites of our guests
this evening, doctor Jed Burton, pastor Doug van Dorn, and
best selling author screenwriter Brian Goadowa. And the Book of
Jasher or Jasher taken for what it is, which is

(52:06):
essentially a medieval commentary and again a window into what
Jewish religious scholars thought about the first six books of
the Bible useful in that standpoint, and certainly for the
author of compelling fiction, some great grist for the mill.

Speaker 5 (52:26):
Gentlemen.

Speaker 6 (52:26):
Thank you, and look forward to doing this again. I'd
forgotten with the month off how much I enjoyed these conversations.
Check the show notes below for links to the websites
of our guests this evening, and we will be back
again next month with another Iron and Myth episode coming up.

Speaker 5 (52:42):
Yes, we are back from Israel.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
A brief report on what we saw there and how
the land has changed over the last eighteen months when
we visited there, just six months into the ongoing war
with Gaza, and an announcement about our next trip to Israel.
You can join us that and more straight ahead as
a view from the Bunker continues.

Speaker 10 (53:15):
Chronicles of the Watchers is a series of biblical novels
by best selling author Brian Goadowa, charting the influence of
spiritual warfare on human history.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
A War of.

Speaker 10 (53:25):
Gods and Men, Jezebel Harlot, Queen of Israel, Moses against
the Gods of Egypt, and other supernatural historical novels in
the series. Chronicles of the Watchers available in ebook, paperback,
and audio book at Amazon dot com. That's Chronicles of
the Watchers by Briangadowa at Amazon dot com.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
There were giants in the earth in those days, and
also after that it was a time of gods and dragons.

Speaker 6 (53:58):
This was supernatural war between Jesus, God and.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
The old gods. We live in the final stage of
a war that began before God said let there be light.
The gods of ancient simmer.

Speaker 6 (54:13):
These giants are all through the Bible, the.

Speaker 10 (54:15):
Things that are going on in the world right now.
I'm sorry, but the riders there thereout.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Now a fresh look at the end times that reveals
the prophecy of the giants at Armageddon, names the four
horsemen of the Apocalypse already loose in the world today.

Speaker 6 (54:34):
These entities are real entities and not just metaphors or symbols,
and they're all Nate.

Speaker 4 (54:40):
Unmasks, the ancient dragons who walk the earth during the
Great Tribulation.

Speaker 10 (54:45):
A primordial entity such as Cronos or Chaos, Lemiath and Tiama.

Speaker 6 (54:50):
His breath kindles coals and a flame comes forth.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
From his mouth.

Speaker 6 (54:54):
What is he describing her if not a dragon.

Speaker 4 (54:56):
And unveils hidden prophecies of their ultimate Destruction, Giants, Gods
and Dragons by Sharon K. Gilbert and Derek P. Gilbert
from Defender Publishing.

Speaker 6 (55:25):
Talking to Walk Sunday Nights from the Beautiful Missouri O's Arts.

Speaker 5 (55:28):
This is a View from the Bunker. I'm Derek Gilbert.

Speaker 6 (55:31):
You'll find us online at VFTV dot net.

Speaker 5 (55:32):
That is our main website.

Speaker 6 (55:34):
And where you'll find the archives of this program going
back to two thousand and nine. We're also at Gilberthouse
dot org. That's the main web hub for everything Sharon
and I do. Derekpgilbert dot com my main website. You'll
find us on social media x at View from Bunker,
View from Bunker not enough characters in the name for
the at Derek Gilbert and at Gilbert House Underscore TV.

(55:58):
We're also on Facebook and True Social and gab at
Derek P.

Speaker 5 (56:02):
Gilbert.

Speaker 6 (56:03):
Please subscribe to you our new Telegram channel. You'll find
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(56:27):
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(56:49):
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all of the TVs, Google TV, Android TV, Roku, Apple TV,
Amazon Fire TV got versions for all of those as well,
and you'll find links at Gilbert House dot org, slash app. Well,
we just got back from Israel about a week ago
and we are mostly recovered. It's not so much the

(57:12):
jet lag but the respiratory infection that I picked up
on the flight on the way over. Trying to get
away from the United States was difficult. We were supposed
to get out there a day before the rest of
the group because we wanted to be well rested when
everybody arrived in Tel Aviv, and that just didn't happen
because severe thunderstorms here in the Midwest coming up from Dallas,

(57:35):
which was our main connection point. Basically put the cabash
in all of our plans. We were going to fly
from Springfield, Missouri to Dallas, Dallas to Boston, then fly
l ALT from Boston to Tel Aviv direct, well four
hour ground stop in Dallas put everything in a mess.
We got to Dallas late, our flight to Boston had
already been canceled. American Airlines helpfully sent to our luggage

(57:59):
on to Washington, d C because they had automatically rebooked
us through DC up to Boston. But the flight, the
l AL flight we were supposed to take, was not
a daily flight from Boston, so that didn't do us
any good. So getting us to d C, Lipkin Tours
was able to then connect us to the official airline

(58:19):
of the United Arab Emirates, which is Etti hod Eti
Hod Airways. Had never heard of them before, but I've
got to say they were excellent.

Speaker 5 (58:29):
They really were.

Speaker 6 (58:30):
It's just it was a longer flight because we had
to fly through Abu Dhabi, which is on the far
side of the Arabian Peninsula, and then come back to
Tel Aviv. So because we didn't want to go to Washington,
d c and try to find a hotel in DC.
At one o'clock in the morning, we opted to stay
in Dallas for the night, but our luggage was already
in DC, so we wound up wearing the same clothing

(58:53):
for three days on the way out. I mean literally
all of the same clothes. But thankfully, the the Hilton
there at the Dallas Fort Worth the International Airport has
some experience with travelers dealing with weather problems, and they
gave us a little traveler's packet with toothbrushes and toothpaste
and deodorant and stuff like that, so we were okay.

(59:14):
But on the flight between DC and Abu Dhabi, the
gentleman I sat next to basically spent twelve hours just
coughing and coughing and coughing. So I came down with
it pretty quick, and then I graciously shared it with
the other thirty four people on the bus, which was
Sharon plus thirty one travelers, plus our tour guide and

(59:38):
the driver. By the time we were done at the
end of twelve days, we were all sneezing and coughing
and sharing as still dealing with the tail end of it.
She's got it worse now, this weekend than I do.
I'm huffing and puffing a little bit. That's in part
because I haven't talked about this much. But we discovered
about six weeks ago after I complained about this to

(59:58):
my primary care physician, that I have an elevated HEMI diaphragm.
And what that means is the diaphragm on the left
side of my body is, for some unknown reasons, stuck
in the up position. It doesn't go up and down
when I breathe out and in like the one on
the right side.

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
They're both supposed to do that. So, in addition to
dealing with the.

Speaker 6 (01:00:26):
Respiratory infection which turned into a sinus infection which I'm
passed by the way, I was having to work around
the fact that I'm only working with about a one
or one and a half lungs. So why that is
we don't know. Still waiting to get an appointment with
a pulmonologist to figure that part out. Anyway, So it

(01:00:47):
was a bit more of a challenging tour than we've
had in the past, but it was also maybe because
of the challenges something that brought us closer together. There
were a number of men and ladies on the tour
who who graciously helped me. As you probably know, I'm
dealing with some mobility issues, mainly balance related. I walk

(01:01:07):
with a cane mostly for balance because my feet basically
dead weight at this point. I mean I can feel
I just can't move them. They just sort of hang
from my ankles when I walk, so I wear braces
to hold them up so I don't trip over my toes.
But it means when I step on uneven ground, you know,
I can't adjust, and so it's very easy for me

(01:01:30):
to fall, which is not a good thing since I'm
on Plavix now for the last year, so a fall
could lead to a dangerous bleed. So anyway, there was
a group on the tour, especially Michael Steve, Jennifer Sharon
of course, and our good friend Ron Silberman who was

(01:01:50):
a tour guy that we had back in twenty twenty
three Messianic who came out to meet us at Shiloh
and helped me around Shiloh, And there were others as well,
but you know, Michael did a lot of the heavy lifting,
so thank you. Thank you for that, and the fact
that we were all on one bus together through the
whole tour was really special. So there were some places

(01:02:12):
I couldn't get to entirely just because of the the
uneven ground. We go to some places that are off
the beaten track, places that were difficult for me to.

Speaker 5 (01:02:26):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:02:26):
Thankfully the IDF escort that we did get to Joshua's Alter,
which we weren't sure we were going to be able
to do. In fact, that wasn't even on the itinerary
until the day before. Apparently Lipkin Tours managed to pull
some strings with the IDF and so we got to
the site of Joshua's Alter, and.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
The IDF.

Speaker 6 (01:02:44):
Escort, noticing my issues, offered to drive me all the
way up to the to the site, which would have
been very difficult. It's again it's not paved all the
way up there, and a lot of fist sized rocks
to step on and around, and so they they were
very acious in helping me out there, and that was
really that was really really powerful. So we're glad that

(01:03:08):
we did it, and as of now we are planning
to go back. We are planning to go back next year.

Speaker 5 (01:03:14):
We have the dates.

Speaker 6 (01:03:15):
Slipkin Tours has blocked out October twelfth through twenty second
of twenty twenty six, and next year we are planning
to do the three day extension to Petra well over
to Jordan, which will include Petra but also other locations
Waddy Run, the Red Desert, Madaba to see the famous

(01:03:36):
Madama map and other sites in Jordan. A lot of
biblical history east of the Jordan River, and Petra is
one that we think has more biblical history and prophetic significance,
let's say, supernatural history to it than most of us
have realized, we believe, and we'll talk about this there

(01:03:58):
that was the site of the original Ka'aba, you know,
it's the Black Cuban and Mecca not based on our
original research. That's credit to a Canadian historian named Dan Gibson.
And it is also where we believe Mount Sinai was located.
And I know that there are many others, good friends
of ours, including Joel Richardson, who believe it's so Jubella

(01:04:22):
laws in Saudi Arabia, and we're happy to disagree politely
about this. We're not going to argue strenuously about this,
but I think given the supernatural history connected to the
location and perhaps the prophetic significance, it would make a
lot of sense for it to also be Signe. But

(01:04:43):
again we'll deal with that in the future. Sharon and
I have that as a sort of a future project
that requires more research. But a Danish a Danish archaeologist
named Debt left Nielsen wrote a book about this about
one hundred years ago and argued for argued for Petrez location.
So again not original to us. In fact, most of

(01:05:04):
the things that we put out there are not original
to us. We're just piecing together bits of evidence into
perhaps a new picture. But anyway, you know, block those out,
block those dates out on your calendar.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
If you've not been to Israel.

Speaker 6 (01:05:17):
We highly encourage you to do so, and we would
plan to go back to what they call the Gaza
envelope next fall. Those are the communities bordering Gaza that
we're victimize on October seventh of twenty twenty three, just
to demonstrate and to show you that the long supernatural
war for control of God's land Zion, where he said

(01:05:41):
here I will dwell for I have desired, it continues
to this day. It's not geopolitical. It is theo political
are Mageddon based on the Hebrew phrase har moed for
Mount of Assembly. That's why it's a Jerusalem. It's all
about who controls God's mount of Assembly. So we'll have

(01:06:05):
the latest information always at Gilberthouse dot org slash travel.
That's Gilbertthhouse dot org slash travel. And as you can
see on the left hand side of the screen here,
I think it's left hand side. It's reversed now that
I'm looking at myself in the monitor. Anyway, a couple
of conference events that are already up for next year,
and I think our conference schedule next year may be

(01:06:26):
lighter than it's been in the past, just because travel
is getting a little more difficult barring barring and improvement
in my physical condition. It's just you know, getting a
little older, you know, means travel gets a little more
difficult anyway, and then again until we figure out what's
going on with my left diaphragm and the the nerve

(01:06:49):
issues connected to hands and feet. Yeah, you notice these
things here, it's fingers as well. Now, well, we may
be just pulling back in and doing more the video
than in person, but those are the things that we'll
be doing for sure next year. Please leave a review
at Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, Audible, Ihet Radio, Spotify, Spreaker,

(01:07:13):
and Pandora wherever else you find us, which is, of course,
wherever find podcasts are sold, and give us a like
or follow on our Facebook page, and please remember our announcer,
the inimitable d C.

Speaker 5 (01:07:27):
Good.

Speaker 6 (01:07:28):
A View from the Bunkers, a production of Gilbert House Ministries,
released ender Creative Comments attribution at compersional no derivatives four
point zero international license. We wrestle, not against flesh and blood.

Speaker 5 (01:07:40):
Good night, Oliver, wherever you are. I'm Derek Gilbert and
this is a View from the Bunker.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
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Have the app?

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Hi, know, slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.

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Iron & Myth 45: The Book of Jasher - A View From The Bunker

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Iron & Myth 45: The Book of Jasher - A View From The Bunker