Sacsayhuaman and Mysteries of Peru - Snake Brothers - Fringe Radio Network

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, everybody, It's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
do you have the app? It's the best way to
listen to the Fringe Radio Network. It's safe and you
don't have to log in to use it, and it
doesn't track you or trace you, and it sounds beautiful.

(00:27):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Just go to.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Fringeradionetwork dot com right at the top of the page.
I know, slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
And welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, Age
of demons and muscles of surface. This is Brothers of
the Certain podcast. We are coming to you totally live
from the ten by ten by ten tangent Cube of Science,
once again nestled amongst the dusty bones of an ancient
seabed high atop of the Edwards Plateau, which is not
nearly as high as we thought. We spent five weeks

(01:51):
at an average of ten k feet above sea level,
so now the heights of the Edwards Plateau seem uh
nice and nice and low down by the water.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Is true in the dock, Kyle sneaking chat.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Kyle's still trying to set up the OBS window for
us to see your chat up here.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Don't worry, We're not running late, no lateness at all,
not at all, so chat will not doe.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Lots of things happening here at the Snake Bros. Homestead.
We're back. We went back to work immediately. We had
a weekend to chill after the flight's back. We went
back to work, of course, because this winery, you know,
isn't going to put up itself, although Stash has been
doing a pretty good job of putting up the winery. Yeah,

(02:49):
we got the smelling salts.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Just it's good.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Just use the libro ah ah, that's nice.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, who we needed those were supposed to bring them.
I guess when we were up up in the handy.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
They're still drying out, but that's much better than actually
sniffing the bottle. I'm still getting comments on that, people
like I watched this over and over.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah to do it, I had to do it.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yes, non ai. This is a non AI channel. Zero
AI content on this channel, right, Maybe maybe Kyle's thumbnails.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
There's some AI.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Stuff so AI tools do get used sometimes to make thumbnails.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
We did, uh we were using well, I guess Riverside
doesn't really count because we never actually used the The
AI producer never used the AI production stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
I do use it to help with show notes, and uh,
I mean not well show notes just for reference. I
write the notes myself and then the chapters. Yeah yeah,
but now YouTube is doing that automatically too. It'll last you.
Would you like to add it's definitely an AI tool.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, that's great. It's great stuff. Yeah. And the memes,
I mean, the meme culture with the podcast is strong.
With the AI stuff it is. It fuels the memes.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, yeah, great. And even just good old fashioned photoshop skills,
you know, all the megalithic ben stuff was great.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Hey, Chris back in curbtt.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I forgot the beers. Okay, he always does this. He
just wants to be able to leave me alone in
the studio after we started live, like every time. But
check this out.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
I actually just stay behind the curtain.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
He stands behind the curtain to see if I say
anything about him. Got some goodies well in Peru, So
let's see. Do I have control of this? Yeah, here
we go. Look at this Arthur Posnansky's Cradle of American Man,

(05:19):
the Tiamonaku book series. This one is volumes three and four.
Also found volume one and two. Dude, these are difficult
to find, and these are in mint conditions. So when

(05:41):
we we were in Bolivia and there's this little restaurant
we stop at outside of Timanaku to have lunch, and
they have this little bookshelf and they have the these
books in the bookshelf in pristine condition for relatively cheap.

(06:04):
This is uh, this is a really I'm I'm super
stoked about this. The amount of information in this in
these books from from Posnansky, his basically lifetime of study,
and it has these I don't know if I can
show this. I mean these beautiful plates and the uh
you know, the fold outs, the old centerfolds. So yeah,

(06:34):
I'm I'm excited to dive into this stuff. There's a
whole lot of amazing information in these four tones on
ti Yuanaku. Yes, oh yeah, there will not be a
book report, but we may use we will certainly use
some of the information in these books when we make

(06:55):
produced videos about the site, because oh man, what an
amazing place.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
That's so awesome.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, I mean you know, we love Egypt Turkey as well,
but Peru is just the setting is just it's gorgeous.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Here's everyone cheers.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Oh do I get one? Will you drink it? Okay?

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Oh wait, you're.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, I'm also getting sick. I was okay for most
of the Tommy and Prue. I had a couple of days,
you know, some mummy tummy, but other than that, it
was fine. And yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
It's it's the puma poop.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
It's the puma poo poo. Yeah, the Machu poo poo.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
The old lake shitty cock.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Woo. That's pretty good.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, yeah, dude, cheers. I was absolutely blown away by
the just everything about the place, the landscape, the history,
the mystery of all of this stuff. Like it was
so cool seeing like going from like Cusco then to
Oyante Tambo and then Agos Calientes and where Machu Picchu is,

(08:22):
and the Inca roads, the Inca trails all through the
Andes all the way down. Like we're driving, you know,
hours and hours day after day on the buses and
you're just up in these mountains. You just see these
trails going along and there's terraces and everything way up there.
The breadth of this civilization is incredible. And you know,

(08:48):
whether it was the Inca or not, it doesn't really matter.
The fact is it's vast. The infrastructure, the aqueducts, the terraces.
The terraces are not just like, I mean, terraces doesn't
really do it justice. These are Some of these are
just like incredibly massive megalithic retaining walls way up on

(09:14):
the sides of the mountains and they're the landing, you know,
the platform at the top that you can walk on.
In some cases are huge, huge areas and the walls
and they're they are tall, some of them. I mean
you look down here, like damn, it's like two stories
down or more with just huge megalithic blocks, and they

(09:34):
don't look hewn. A lot of them. They're they look
like rough boulders, but they are fitted so well with
the next boulder, and that they still don't look worked.
You know, it's like got a flat face, but it
looks like it's just broken, and then there's just another
broken piece that's just perfect. You know. It's it's incredible

(09:59):
the workmanship in all the different various styles, because you've
got the the sort of putty knife style walls that
look like, you know, somebody.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Just oh yeah, did it with.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
A putty knife, with the pillowy blocks and the nubs
and the nooks and all that. But then you have
this other style that's like really well seemingly like well
fitted rocks that are not fully worked on the surface.
They're not pillowy, they don't look like it was done

(10:36):
with a putty knife. It looks like they were broken
that way, yeah, you know, broken with flat faces, flat
edges and put together. And then there's like the sort
of cobblestone style that almost is like reminiscent of the
putty knife, like they were attempting to take these rough
cobbles that were rounded in the front and and sort

(10:58):
of fit them to the stones next to them, which
is supposedly the Inca walls. And I was really looking
at these and I'm just like, man, that is really
well done. It's well done. Amount of have like large.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Chips taken off like it's flinty rock. They're chipped up,
yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
And then you just have like the classic broken rocks
stacked up and it's a nice flat face, but it's
all obviously broken rocks with gaps and sometimes mud mortar
whatever put in there, and it's still, like I said,
nicely done. But it's they're they're just I think many
different levels of quality of the of the stone work

(11:40):
and different styles of stone work that.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
That a matter what.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
They're impressive.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah. Like that the area around the the Inca Bridge
across the Udumbamba River down at Otema, like we walked
across it multiple times, right, those those blocks that are
down in the water, that, yeah, that build up the
main support for the bridge.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Oh god. Not only that, but there's two humongous boulders
like raw boulders upstream upstream of it, in a line
to break the water the water so it kind of
the river makes like almost like a little boathole shaped, yeah,
island there. That the that the main bridge pillars built
on its genius. And then you look at the size

(12:23):
of those boulders and you're like they moved them into
the middle of the river. How Like these are just
absolutely enormous.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
But then of course you're going along the road below
the Sun Temple and you see the size of some
of those blocks that were like the tired stones, and
you're just like okay, but then there.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
They're putty knife stone.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, their putty knife and like, but it was also interesting, right,
we noticed that they're shaped. One thing we've come to
expect from these builder cultures is that the blocks are
delivered to the site with a lot of excess material
on them, and yet these tired stones are shaped with

(13:04):
sharp edges in some cases, I mean some of them aren't.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Well, so is the unfinished obelisk. It's got sharp edges.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, you're right, so maybe it does have access. It
just looks really nice. Yeah, but I mean has the
notch cut out of the corner?

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
It's like, are you are you planning on you cut
that notch out because you're like, I want them to
know what this block is going to be shaped like,
but they're going to remove another eight inches of material
that or that.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Notch was from removing a different stone, and they were
just Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Several of the of the tired stones had the notch
cut out of the corner, even some of the small ones.
And then the big one, that really huge one with
the now infamous picture of Ben on top of it
holding Finish playing the banjo.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
And the accordion.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
The accordion. Yeah, ah, the way the people people in
our discord meme these trip photos is highly entertaining, and
then of course we share them with the with the
tour group or like this, do you guys know Ben
Kad shred the banjo?

Speaker 3 (14:03):
It comes up with this stuff, but it's great.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
There's a couple of questions in here. How many Coca
leaves did you partake in a lot? Yeah? Hundreds.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
The first thing I did was I was like, where
are the.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Real Coca colas? That's right, that's that's what first question is, do.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
They I mean, come on, guys, they got the real
Coca colas down here? Right? No, no, they don't, but
they do have very good coke.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
It's excellent Coca cola classic. They don't make it with
the coca leaves.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
So then we were drinking the coca tea, which I
find palatable.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, it's not the most pleasant, but it's no but
you and they drinking whiskey.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
And then there was like, you know, take this big
water of the coca leaves and take them in the
gum and kind of chew on them while you're climbing
the mountain, and if they're good, the side of your
face starts to go numb. You're like, oh, switch side,
switch side, like that. Nostrils clear, but man, it's unpleasant.

(15:10):
Like the taste is so not I not. It would
definitely be an acquired taste. It would take a while.
Chinkana excavation Yeah, uh okay, So there's stories here.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah yeah, uh are you talking?

Speaker 3 (15:30):
So?

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (15:31):
First of all, pin five wait pin right? Pen? No,
that's the that's the currency.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's the currency. RAS eight five. Yeah, gave us five pin.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
Thank you for the five pin, sir, nice eving.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
You liked it around here? You were were you were
around the chin Kana excavation. This is a question if
you're talking about the excavation at Sexy Woman.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yes, we so.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
A couple of things happened. We planned We did tour
two tour back to back with a basically a four
four day break in between them. And our original plan
was once the first tour ended and it ends in
Juliaka way up by the lake, we were gonna basically
drive all the way back down to Oyanti Tombo, stay

(16:19):
in Oyante Tambo for a couple of days, well, stay
in Tombo for one night, and then hike up the
mountain to the quarry for the Sun Temple and camp
overnight and hike up higher again because you hike up,
you make it to one of the upper landings where
they were doing the work on the stones. But the
quarry face is actually way farther up the mountain, up

(16:43):
where the actual mountainous and to site granite is sticking up.
So we were gonna hike up there, camp overnight and
then get up and hike the rest of the way
up and try to find the quarry faces, and then
after that we were going to go to hike back
down and then head to Cusco and then visit the
excavations up at Saxehuaman. But Ben got incredibly sick.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Like and he ruined everything.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
That's right. I was going to give him some credit,
but now Ben just ruined it all. Yeah, yeah, I
was upset. Yeah, I've never seen him this sick before.
He was like, he was very ill. So we were
actually lucky that it happened at the end of the tour.
But the whole drive from Juliaka back to Cusco, which

(17:34):
is a long drive, it took us all day, maybe
it was eight to ten hours or something like that.
In the van Uh he was suffering, and then we
got to the hotel and he disappeared into his room
and we barely saw him for a couple of days.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Actually, we were all feeling pretty short.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
I didn't feel great. Kyle also didn't feel great, but
Ben was really sick.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
So it was good. We were just like, you know what,
let's stay in Cusco and let's not go anywhere, right,
That's what we did.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
So we spent four days in Cusco just resting in
a hotel. Kyle and I did get out and do
some walking around. We did a we did a thirty
minute live stream on the income until.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Bucket loads of ship for not using the DJI mikes.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah we did.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
That was great.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
And then of course they had their one of their
celebrations going on in the Plaza de Armas, so the
bells were going off. We're like, well, live stream over.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Guys. Yeah we got we healed up and uh we
did not get to see the excavations. However, when we
went there, they had already buried. They had buried the
main ones at the at the lower wall, but there
was a couple that we kind of like just peeked
down and you could see they were in multiple areas.
They're excavating up there.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Now they're working more at the top, up where the
towers used to be, and Rollo was telling us. Rolleo,
our contact and guide down there, was telling us that
that there's multiple uh chin Kana legendary chin Kana entrances
up there at the top, and that's what they're looking for.
And I guess they've found at least one. Then they've

(19:08):
gone in a couple of dozen meters at least, but
they're you know, they're old and collapsed and stuff. But
we didn't get to go in anything, and we didn't
get to really explore the excavations unfortunately. So it was
too bad. Uh, but we the rest was worth it
because once those four days were up in Cusco, we

(19:30):
flew back down to Lima and started the second tour,
and by then we all felt much better. But yeah,
if we had tried to do all that camping and
hiking and uh we yeah, it would have not worked out.
We're Kyle's looking for something to share.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Well, I was just trying to find that set have it,
but I can throw one.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, let's take a look at Sexy Woman. Okay, Kyle's
made some compilation and yeah, this footage is really great.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
This is like fifty minutes of just sax a. Oh
it's got sound, let's turn that Offah. Yeah, I don't
know if I if I do full screen, if it
will actually see it. There we go, let's see what happens.

(20:28):
Let me go full screen. H there you go? Okay, cool.
So yeah, this is where you walk in. This is
basically like you park, you walk in, and all these

(20:48):
walls down here are almost completely destroyed.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
There's that classic style. This is not nearly as megalithic
because this stuff up at the top, but it's incredible
and you can see this is I guess I don't
know if this is modern repairs or INCA work. This
looks probably more older like INCA work. Here, it's still
very good, very good.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, it's well done, like very well done cobblestone walls.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
But yeah, clearly totally different than this megalithic stuff. Skip
a bit, brother, Here we go. This was the first
day that we went there. It was raining pretty bad.
So it kind of jumps back and forth between the

(21:46):
first and second tour because, uh, like I said, yeah,
the first tour it was it's poured on us. The
whole time we were there. But this is just I don't know,
it's hard to imagine how this was achieved. One of

(22:07):
the things I've really got interested in when we were
as we went through all these different sites is this
dressing of the join areas. Right. They everywhere where there's
a join, it's the stone has been carved down to
a straight line or a relatively flat line on the

(22:29):
plane of the wall.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Right. It doesn't undulate in and out of the wall
like it would if the stone was if the join
wasn't cleaned up, because the stones are at sometimes different depths.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
So yeah, yeah, So the question is is are the
are the actual joins along the same plane a lot?

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yeah, it would be nice to know. We get some
scans of the walls and find out if all of
these join lines are along a single plane of this surface.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
And how close. Yeah, what's the precision of a plane
that they're in there, because it does look like it
might be.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Back in these corners. I mean it's it's cut way
in there. Some of these are cut in like a
foot in in depth to get down to that join line.
And so I was using AI and I was like,
how many linear feet of joins are there, or seams

(23:33):
we'll call them seams. How many linear feet of seams
are at sex a well man? And of course AI
can't just easily figure that out, but it was pretty
cool watching it look at sources, you know, how to
kind of show you. Okay, it's looking at it's like
how many stones, how big are the roughly how big
are the stones? How many edges, how many you know,

(23:55):
what is the surface area of the average stone. And
so it does all this math and it figures like, okay, well,
let's just give like a rough estimate of I think
it was something like twenty thousand feet of join line
of seams.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Wow, and that look at how deep that one is. Yeah,
that's good. That's ridiculous. It is way in there.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
So then after you get the twenty thousand feet of seams, okay,
I'm like, I'm fine with that number. It's probably a
lot more than that I would I would imagine based
on the just the number of walls, and like, this
is just like the main wall that everybody kind of
looks at, but there's tons and tons of walls that
have been destroyed as well. Yeah, they're just cut so

(24:43):
deep in there. Anyways, if you imagine that on average
they're cutting six inches deep by say, like four inches
wide groove or like a triangular groove they're cutting to
get to that seam maybe four inches by six inches. Yeah,

(25:05):
how much material is that? And it's it's at least
hundreds of tons of material just to remove the stone
for the seeds, probably closer to a thousand tons. I
would have guessed the number of feet for the seams
here was a lot larger than twenty thousand feet me too. Yeah,

(25:29):
so it's a very conservative.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
That's a very conservative ismate. Yeah, there's a good question here, Okay,
somebody's asking if you were going to recreate these stones
exactly today, how would you go about it? How would
you go about it? How would you if somebody gave
you this job.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Jeo Palmer the easiest, No, but if you had to
do it out of real stone? Yeah, which I paused
it right here because I want to point this out. Yeah,
this pattern right here, this is limestone. All of these
stones at sexe women or limes. And there's a few,
clear to the naked eye features that represent very characteristic

(26:07):
things about limestone, and this is one of them. These
layers that you see here are calcite crystal, right. It
forms in layers usually like so this kind of suggests
that this stone was this side of the stone, was

(26:31):
the top of this stone at some point or the
layering of this stone and water was moving down here
getting super saturated with silicates, and then they were crystallizing
on the surface of the stone, and then later another
layer and another layer and another layer, and you end
up with this beautiful layered calcite crystal or alabaster as

(26:57):
we find in you know, the bases in ef there's
tons of alabaster boxes, all these things made out of alabaster.
So it can really form these humongous chunks of rock.
But that is a characteristic feature of limestone. Because limestone's porous,
the water can move through it, and then as it

(27:17):
dissolves certain things, it'll and then it and then the
water gets to an area where perhaps there's a void,
it will evaporate and that's where you get the supersaturation, right,
and that's when it starts to crystallize. Calcium carbonate or ugh,
what's the crystalline name for that's calcite, crystal, calcite. So

(27:41):
that's a that's a very distinguishing feature which tells me
this is not a geopolymer. Like, you're not gonna get
this finely layered calcite crystal on the side of an
exposed area of this stone if it was a geopolymer,
it's just not gonna happen out in the open like this.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
And what about softening. This is the other thing people say, like,
maybe it's not polymer. Maybe they didn't pour the stones,
but they were able to take actual limestone and soften
them somehow to work them.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yeah, I don't know how you do that. I mean,
I don't. All I can go on is this is
basically just what I understand about solid state physics, Like
these bonds that happen are a particular type of bond.
You can use chemical reactions to to basically break the bonds,

(28:40):
but then you can't put them back. Yeah, so once
you break the bond, then it's not it's not the
stone anymore. You've dissolved it. You've done something to it.
So maybe you can work the exterior of a stone
by using acids and things like that to basically ablate
material from the surface, or say work these grooves or

(29:02):
notches or whatever that that's a plausible thing to make
them sort of pillowy, to be able to wear away
by grinding or some other action. You can utilize acids
to aid that process, but you can't actually soften the
material throughout the stone to melt molding into something and then.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Have it reheardened at least processes.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah, and any really, as far as I know, any
solid state, like just solid state physics in general, doesn't that.
That's just not the way it works, right unless you
unless you heat it to a melting point. But as
we know with stone, because there are so many dissolved elements,

(29:46):
like once you start heating it, it's going to expand
and bubble and gases are going to come out, and
it's just now you're going to completely change the nature
of the stone. The other thing I looked up about
would be like, for example, you could perhaps apply because
some of these bonds are you know, they're they're like

(30:08):
ionic bonds, I guess, like with the electrons or something
like that, So you could you could apply it extremely
powerful electromagnetic field, very deep. Yeah, this one's incredible. The
way this one's sticking out. It actually looks like the
piece inside is so much narrower than the part that's
sticking out on the surface because they've cut it around

(30:31):
both sides to the seam. It's it's interesting, but you can.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
So basically you can look at these. Once you get
a close look at these, it's obvious that they're they're
natural stone. Yeah, it isn't it. It's not a geopolymer.
There's a lot of it, isn't It doesn't seem to
be softening either, because it seems like with softening you
would lose a lot of these natural properties in the limestone. Yeah,
it looks like they were hewn out of actual rock

(30:57):
broad here somehow shaped and in place.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Again, we have like the actual bedrock that's been cut,
so you know, it's like they were cutting this stuff
out of bedrock. Like I'm not saying that the quarry
for Saxe Woman is right here, but you can see
everywhere you go there's large areas of bedrock that are
just cut, big square cuts taken out of them. And
so they were fully capable of cutting the living rock

(31:20):
and removing, you know, making square cuts in it with
whatever process anyway to finish the point. With a very
strong electromagnetic field, you can weaken these bonds, these atomic
bonds and all that. It's you could say that the
stone becomes softer, but it's really like, if you want

(31:41):
to talk about it, and traditionally it would be like
the most scale of hardness or softness. So if it
was a seven and you apply this electromagnetic field to it,
maybe it drops down to like a five or six.
The bonds are still together, so it's not malleable, but
you can break it easier, you can scratch it easier,

(32:03):
so that in that sense, it becomes softer. But you're
bringing basically quartz maybe down to the hardness of kind
of hard limestone or or volcanic tough or something like that.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
That wouldn't technically make it easier to work, but it could.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Make it easier to work. But it's not going to
make it malleable. None of it's going to make it
malleable once you shift its position. Now you've broken the bonds. Yeah,
so that's kind of where I'm at. I mean, whatever,
maybe there's some unknown technology that can do this, but
it's it's why go that far, Like, why go that

(32:39):
far to speculate? I mean maybe, but so yeah, I
think this could be achieved by vibrating the stones together
like you could.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Basically, we've basically landed on the lapping grinding lapping.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Somehow, it's still because all the joins are are curved
and they're you know, the the mating surfaces are complex surfaces.
They twist, they undulate, like if it looks like they
were if you laugh together. If you lapped them together
in one direction, one one surface would be concave, the

(33:19):
other surface would be convex, perpendicular to the direction of lapping,
right like you would lap it. You would lap it
like this, and this surface would end up being on
cave or convex, and the top surface would be the opposite, yeah,
perpendicular to the direction of lapping.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
But these surfaces don't do that.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
You don't have like this perfect boat shape or you
know linear. I mean, we've seen surfaces that are convex
in one way and concave in the other like there.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Or they just they just do this gentle twist.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
They'll twist yeaheah. So you can't achieve that by lapping
in any one direction. So it makes sense that like
if you just vibrated them together, which is essentially a lapping,
but it can be more of a random it can
be circular, it could be but it's a very small
motion and it achieves the same thing. You're just grinding

(34:13):
two stones together and they will conform to one another
and that.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah. So if it's a really high frequency vibration, yeah,
you don't need a lot of room.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah, it could even be a low frequency. It just
still it just the higher the frequency, the faster it's
going to faster. Yeah, And you could potentially tune the
frequency to multiple things. You could tune it to the
size of the rock that you're vibrating so that you're
getting the fundamental frequency, in which case it might be
a low fairly low like it could be like.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Or you could tune it to individual materials, or you
could you.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Could tune it to something that's that gets the little
grains bouncing around more rapidly and that causes more because
that's what you would do with a slurry. Like when
Jeffrey Appling was showing us with his little jeweler's tool. Yeah,
it's a ultrasonic frequency vibration with basically a transducer that

(35:07):
puts the vibration into some tool tip that you have.
So he used like a tube, like a steel tube,
small like a think of a straw, like a sipping straw,
a tube like that size at the tip of this thing,
and it's vibrating and then he has a slurry pouring
over it of like corundum dust and water.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Very abrasive material.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
And you tune the frequency to that dust to get
the water in the dust like really agitated. So it's
using cymatics. Oh, this is another good This is I
think a fossil.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
It looks like a fossil.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, yeah, that whole structure there that I mean that
almost looks like ribs or something. But it could be coral.
I mean, we see, we see stuff and look at
it's all over here too, all of this stuff down here,
this is all this is like a fossiliferous piece. I know.
There was a paper out that was saying they took
samples from saxe I'm on and they found no macro

(36:01):
fossils in it. And it's like, well that that to
me seems like sample bias because limestone doesn't have to
be fossiliferous. It can be devoid of fossils or macro fossils.
But if you just walk around you don't need to
take samples and look at them in a microscope at
this place. If you walk around enough, you can find

(36:23):
the fossiliferous chunks of limestone, and you can find the
calcite crystal and all of this stuff that is just
absolutely characteristic of limestone. So I don't I think that.
I think there's definitely a sampling bias at least in
that paper. Look at this one. This one's got all
these fossils in.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
It, is it?

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Oh? These? Yeah, this one's been shaken apart. Look at that.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
No, I'm it's that block.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
You back it up, it'll probably zoom back out. Okay,
this crack beer cracked up?

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah yeah, not that, not the big one, the thin
one next. It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter. It looked broken.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
So anyway, Yeah, if you vibrate them together, I don't
know how much energy that would take. We could probably
ask crack how many how much energy would it take
to shake two hundred tons?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
People are asking some good questions in here, like how
do you lap? How do you do lapping in a
three dimensional structure?

Speaker 3 (37:23):
You know, So this is what I would say. Here's
another really great example of calcite crystal formation, probably in
a fossil maybe reef like plant or something like that.
So what I what I think is with vibration, you
can work the stone on three different axes. So the
bottom of the stone, let's see. Yeah, so you can

(37:47):
work the bottom of the stone, the back of the stone,
and the side all at the same time. You would
set the stone down. It would have stone behind it
and a stone next to it, and you apply lateral
force to push it against the back and the side,
but the gravity of the stone itself is pushing it
against the bottom, and then you get it vibrating and
then eventually it would grind the all three surfaces to

(38:12):
where they conformed to one another. And one of the
things I like about this the joinery thing. I can't
remember what number is supposed to be, Like thanks cleaning
up these joins like this if you were doing this
process and you're cleaning these joins out, because you can

(38:34):
observe that surface now, and this is what I'm saying,
like the joins are cleaned up so nice to where
they don't undulate the seams, they don't undulate in and
out of the wall, which would make it if it
was doing that the seam was like this, it would
be very difficult to observe that it was conformed to

(38:54):
each other.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
So in other words, what he's saying is they dug
those seams out deeply so that they could observe so
that when you're doing the lapping, you can see that
the stone has become flat to it's to the mating stone.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
So look as an inspection, you can stand right here
and you can see this seam all the way around
and down that side of the stone as well, because
it's been cleaned up. If the bulk of this stone
came down and there was a corner here and this
one came up, you couldn't see. And they are undulating
in and out like one sticking out the other one's
going in. The rock goes in like this, it would

(39:29):
be very difficult to observe the whole seam to see
that it is now tight or like maybe there's a
gauge and they're like, okay, because we've seen Saxon Raman
is an example of extremely fine and precise work in
terms of the joinery. But there are other sites where
the joinery wasn't so fine, but it was this same

(39:50):
pillowy like we were talking about putty knife looking rock.
But they just didn't get the seams like so perfect.
There was. It was bigger gaps. And of course you
would imagine like getting the seams this perfect would be costly,
it would be time consuming. So the more the higher
precision or perfection you're looking for in the seams, the

(40:13):
longer each stone's going to take, no matter how you
were doing the process.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
And the other thing I thought of is some of
those the divots that are in these blocks, or the
places where it looks like something was pressed into it.
If let's say you're doing this, for example, you're doing
this this vibration lapping technique, but you have braces up
against it to keep it from falling out of the
wall while it's vibrating, because when once it vibrates, it's

(40:39):
going to want to move right, I don't want to shift.
So maybe the bracing actually works its way into the
blocks during the vibration.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
So you got them all along the bases on all
these upper blocks, and on the bottoms too in a
lot of cases exactly like they put post shores there
to keep it in place. Yeah, and it maybe because
if you were doing this, you're not you're going to
vibrate at some giant stone like this one against these
two on the bottom, and maybe this corner one. These

(41:10):
other stones over here are going to be shaking too.
They will be moving. So you would probably keep post
shores on the stones that you've set nearby for quite
a while. Yeah, right, because they're all going to be
vibrating because you're going to be putting more another layer
along the top and you and you got to lap
those in as well. Yeah, so it's it's conceivable that
these are just the post shores working into the working

(41:33):
their way on the stone.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah the time. Yeah, maybe that's one possibility. Ed foo,
ed foo, Bro, what's up? Man? He gives us five
bucks to say he's open to either method except Geo Palmer. However,
either method vibration or softening is using a method or
tech we don't understand. I m oh in his opinion,
I agree with that. Look at the when when we

(41:55):
were here in discussing this with the with the other
people on the tours, we we are all always say
like we're not discussing the tools for this because it's
you know, you could you can come up with numerous
methods for achieving the vibration in the stone. We don't
know how they did it, but this is one possible
method for possibly achieving this result.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yeah, the question is can we come up with a
process or action that would produce the features that we see?

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Right? And I think that this is how you execute
that process or action and what tools you use to
execute it are.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
You can figure that out later. Yea. If the process
or action does continually over time as you observe more
and more, still stands fit.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, fit what you observe, Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
But I do think I'm just going back to this
point of cleaning up these these join areas. I think
that this is absolutely necessary for inspection. Like, I think
that the purpose of this, of all of these cleaned
up joints was so that you could inspect and make
sure that the stone was fitted to the tolerance that
was that was the job required.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Which was retaining walls at least for this stuff. Right.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Well, I'm just saying like they would say, get it
down to this fine, and you may have some gauge
and you can just run that gauge along the joint
and be like it's good, it's good. Right, if it
wasn't clean. You could not easily do that. It would
be very difficult to see it or measure measure it.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
So this is a way where it can be seen
and measured all the time, constantly as the stones being worked.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
So people ask about these walls like are they two sided? Now,
they're mostly retaining walls. Each one is holding up a
bunch of material to the inside of the walls structure,
so they are one sided walls the back of we
don't know what the backs look like.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Notice how similar this is to the to the walls
under the palaces in Japan. The corners step up and
everything is leaned back intowards the corner. Okay, so this
is another thing that you would expect to be reduced
if it was vibrated together right, These long curves, especially
when a stone is deep into another stone. So if

(44:10):
you if from the quarry you cut this stone square right,
Let's say this stone had square edges and sharp corners,
and you started working it down into this space between
these two, it would eventually work. The corners are going
to be the first thing to go, like, they're going
to start rounding much quicker than a flat surface. So

(44:32):
any flat surface is gonna hold up better than a corner. Right,
The corner is the weakest point, and it's gonna wear
that away until it becomes more and more rounded, and
the more rounded it gets, the slower it wears. So
you would expect that the deeper a stone is worked
into another one, the more round the corners are. And
then you can say, if you see a stone that's

(44:53):
deep into another stone and it has sharp corners, then
those were prepped like those were cut. We're cut previous
to the working, because you wouldn't end up with a
sharp kfe one just to the right like this one here. This,
this seems like it was probably prepped because it's a
fairly shark. It's a bit around it off more than
this side right. And then the other thing you would

(45:16):
expect to see is that the flat surfaces which wear
away slower whereas the corners wear away quicker. Then this
stone would rise up into the peak here between the
joins between the corners of two other blocks. And we
saw that over and over and over again. Right, this,

(45:38):
this flatter surface actually has a little peak that goes
up in here where it wore the other two corners away,
So that this flat surface didn't wear away on this stone,
which is more robust than the corner. So we saw
that all over the place. I can show another video
of it. Even in the smaller stones on the walls.
It was always like that. If there was let me

(45:59):
just pause this real quick. If there was like a
flat stone like this and then they set it blocked
down here in a block. Down there, you got these
two sharp corners at the bottom of these two blocks,
and right here on this long flat surface, it would
actually have a little peak. Yes, it comes up right, yes,

(46:21):
right in the joint in the seam of the upper
two block of the upper blocks, which is exactly what
you would expect to see if they were vibrated together right,
because it would wear away the corners and the flat
surface would would not wear as quickly. It's cool, so,
I mean it just I don't know it fits the
the features. Which number was it? Six?

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Seven seven six is also fine, I'm looking for it.
There's more questions in here.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Uh, let's see. And then there's the the inca work
next to it. And this is this is good too.
I mean this stonework is this is not easy to achieve,
like a nice flat wall with all these random cobbles.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, Ben, everything says it took it months to build
a gart with with a garden wagon, buckets and a
shovel to build a twenty foot by three foot raised
bed of forest soil only ten inches deep. Yeah, it's hard.
There's tons of soil.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Yeah, it's hard. I was building a rock wall today
with a with a mini excavator, and I was just
looking at it and I'm like, this is trash, Like
this wall is total trash, dude, And I have like
one of the most sophisticated tools. Yeah, compared to.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
It, I can't grab that rock and be like, oh
I wanted to be able.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
To do that so bad, And I was just like,
I need to hire some some INCA guys or who
even the INCA guys that were stacking the cobbles like
they they kicked I ass. So here's a here's an
example of one of these seams that that sort of twists.
You know, it's not a flat surface anywhere in there.

(48:12):
It's a complex surface on both stones and they both
match all the way to the back.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
It's it's incredible. Yeah, basically come to the end of
that section, but then you go over here and you
look down and you're like, oh my god, it's still
going yeah, and it just goes way way way down there.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Now that's a really rough wall. That one's yeah, I
bet you that's modern. Oh yeah, it's totally modern.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Yeah. So this is up above. Here's the megalithic wall
down here that we were just walking past. And so
now these are smaller stones, but still and then you
got nubs. Now here's a sharp corner right that that
looks prepped. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
As you go up the stonework becomes more like ashlars,
more like bricks, large ones, but they become more square.
And then when at the very top they were using
andesite as opposed to this limestone that's in the retaining
walls down below. And then I love the fact that
the retaining walls are these jagged shapes. You know, it

(49:21):
has this jagged shape, which may also be part of
a puma of the whole thing, including sexy woman at
the top of the hill going down into the city
of Cusco is supposed to be a cat basically with
its head resting at the top of the hill. And
they showed that the jagged walls are like the main
or part of the But it's also those jagged walls.

(49:43):
When you're building a retaining wall, long flat or even
curved wall is less sturdy then if you stagger it
right and that way, each length of wall is only
holding a certain amount of soil and is less likely
to bow out, whereas if you have this long strap
straight one, it's gonna the weight can push it down easily.
So again, I love the just the same way as

(50:07):
when we go through all these sites, you see the
engineers and how they're handling these problems. Yeah, and of
course you see some of the problems I handled and
you're like, how the fun did they do that?

Speaker 3 (50:17):
It's incredible.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
That's the chat.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
Go because it won't dock, piece of crap. Let me
see if I can get it to dock again, go.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Ed Foo again, says a good explanation of the vibration possibility. Kyle.
Perhaps you were onto something when you mentioned the nubs
could have assisted in vibration. Yeah, so the nubs that
would be it grab on, is it?

Speaker 3 (50:44):
But you know, Yusef kept pointing this out the more
we had talked about this idea, and I love this fact.
Let's go back to the video real quick. Here is
this inside corner, right, So this block goes around the
corner about four inches or so, suggesting that the that
like we see in Egypt, these stones had more bulk

(51:07):
on their faces and this was basically carved away right this,
this surface of this stone was flattened down four inches,
which is why it appears to go around this corner,
because the bulk of the stone used to come all
the way out here. So we see the same feature
where stones go around corner, you know, all that kind

(51:28):
of stuff. But on these flattened finished walls there are nubs.
And Yusuf was pointing this out. If the nubs were
used only in the manufacture or the or the surfacing
or the joinery, if they were some part of how
a machine grabbed on to do something, or if they
were for lifting or whatever, then when they flattened the wall,

(51:50):
why did they leave the nubs sticking out?

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Which is so it's such a good point.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
So we were like, uh, maintenance, Like, yeah, if an
earthquake came and kind of shoog them apart, they could
go grab onto it, just grind it back in the position.
I don't know, but they also Russ's pointed this out
for years that clearly the there's way more nubs around doorways.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Around openings or portals or doorways or places where there's
high stress. It looks like there would be high stress
in uh, in the structure, there's a lot more nubs.
The nubs become very numerous, and it's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Yeah, it's so and so.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, you're right. We've always asked the question, like, are
the nubs something that was intended to be removed when
they flatten the walls, And in some cases we find
totally beautifully flattened walls and the nubs are still there.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
Yeah, very prominent ones too, you know. Yeah, Ko, even
in random positions. It's not like they were perfectly. There
were some areas at the Corey Kanca where it was
clear that there were like these really nice square nubs
and there was like a symmetry to how the scimitch
around an opening.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
But in other places it was just like there's ten
over here, yeah, and then when you go to the
other side, there's like two.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
It's like maybe the other eight nubs on that side
got used.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Maybe there are one nub gone.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
This is another really cool feature. Look at this this
this water sent this water feature coming out. Oh, we
were so. Another thing that that Realio was pointing out
all the time was the animal. You know, you can
it's sort of like clouds, right, you can You're looking
at the clouds and you're like, there's a dragon, there's
a pink elephant.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
But in these walls, in the structures, in the mountains,
they are there's faces, there's cats, there's you know, so
they always there's like you use your imagination and like
look at these forms. So he was kind of like,
you know, talking about how there's all these shapes in
the walls, and I know people have pointed this out
many times, but there definitely are what looked to be

(54:09):
more like serpents. To me, I'm seeing serpents everywhere and
I love this. The definition of saxe Waman or the
site's name was complete knowledge right right. And even in
the in the Imara i think it was Imara language,
the name of the serpent is Amadu and it means knowledge.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Also, yeah, it's serpent and also means knowledge, which is
just like.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Why is that?

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Why is that always the case?

Speaker 3 (54:45):
Like what is the deal with the serpent being synonymous
with knowledge? I love the thing you point out about
the shedding of the skin. This is like where you
get this rebirth right, like it gets it looks like
it's old, it's dying, it goes blind, yeah, and then
it sheds its skin and.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Then its bra Yeah, reborn. I look at this, how
this wall. You see these kinds of features. A lot
of times the the blocks down by the ground are
relatively small, and then there's this huge layer, huge layer
going almost all the way down, and then above that
that they get a little smaller again. So it's like,

(55:20):
I don't know, I.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Noticed that all over there, all over that, like the
Inca Roca wall, the very bottom stones in some cases
are really small, yeah, and then just enormous blocks on.
So guess what I did today when I was building
that wall? Built you made a small I was like
the dump truck dumped all these blocks, and there was
some huge boulders and all that. There wasn't a whole
lot of huge boulders, but there was quite a few

(55:42):
just chunkers like this. Yeah, And so I was like,
you know what I'm gonna So I round up all
these small ones and I just kind of push them
into the wall. The little retaining wall that I was building,
and then I start stacking the big ones on top.
I was just like, yeah, yeah, this looks good.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Totally looks right.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
Yeah, okay, keep going here. Anyway, there's a couple of
places I don't remember where, but there's a couple of
places that it definitely looks like a serpent.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
I'll also say, like a lot of people are commenting
on the vibration everything. Yes, like this, there's also this
this like hidden not hidden, but there's this esoteric idea
that these structures have something to do with vibration.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Yeah, they were whistled into place, oh.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Yes, Or they're whistled or or hummed or sung into playing,
or that there was trumpets played or something, and like
you can imagine if somebody's vibrating massive stone. Yeah. But yeah,
so it's it is interesting how that does seem to fit.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Yeah, come on, chat, it's really annoying. It won't be
it wants to dock only on the top.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yeah. I think we had this issue some other time
as well.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
Yeah, I've had it multiple times. Yeah, annoying. I love
these square holes like cut into the into the wall
for water to flow. It is yeah, yeah, It's amazing
how they incorporated water into all these features.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
It's also just amazing how it just enormous this site is.
I mean, it is you know again, it's like Giza.
You can walk around Giza for days, and this is
it's the same. Here. You just wander and there's walls forever,
you know, and then and then behind you turn around
and then there's the whole inca slide section and that
entire thing seems to have been encased in walls. And

(57:44):
then you go down below and there's all this Hanan
pacha and it was just a really strange place. And
the I think that the the purpose. You know, people
were asking us while we were there, and we're all
discussing it together, like what was the purpose of the site.
It's just like, you know, the Spanish thought of it

(58:05):
as a fort, but I don't think anyone knows what
it was for. It's been lost. Yeah, it may have
just been just for aesthetic.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
It could have been the capitol like building or something
like that.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
Let's build a castle the library, yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
I mean, because this was part of Cusco's it comes down,
like you said, into Cusco, and Cusco has this massive
megalithic foundation area.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Yeah, the old Cousco is full of this. And and
the other interesting thing we were discussing is that below
the streets of that section of Cusco are all these
massive megalithic blocks that are now incorporated into their their
drainage systems. And I kept telling Ben and Collmer, we
need to get down there. And Ben and Kyle are like, no,

(58:56):
we no, we don't.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
I do not want to go into the seer is
bro many when I was a teen.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
And a mutant, Yeah, and Ninja, maybe maybe I would
have gone down into those sewers. Boys, if you're a turtle,
if I was a turtle, yes, so.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I mean it could
have been like like we were saying, I mean, it's
it's beautiful, it's obviously aesthetic, but there is the big
question to me, is it unfinished? And I I when
you look at the Corey Kanca.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
You can see that like this is what it looks
like when it's finished.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Mostly yes, Yeah, the joins are cleaned up, the surface
of the rocks puff out just a little bit, but
they are flattened. Yeah, And so there's like this this
same sort of and then you go to certain places
and you look and you can see, like the block
goes around the corner. If you get down, like say

(01:00:07):
they dug out the floor a little bit, the floor
tiles are gone. You can see that the wall comes
down and then juts out a little bit. You know
that they flattened it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
They used to be pillowy blocks.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
And so I wonder, like, the tired stones are laying
in the middle of the road, they're already worked and shaped.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
The Inca didn't use them.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
And even some of the tired stones are not very big.
And when like the standard model attributing some of these,
even the rough cobblestone walls, they have massive boulders in them,
And I'm like, why would the Inca not have used
this little tired stone that's laying here. It's not right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Some it's huge, but it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
It's not any bigger than some of the stones that
are attributed to the Inca that are not even this
pillowy stuff. So even if the Inca did find O
Yante Tombo already half built, with the tired stones laying
in the middle of the road, they couldn't get those
boulders up there to finish the construction job right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Well, the other argument is that they were the ones
doing it and they just got they.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
Are the ones that just stopped. Yeah, but but.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
You're right, there are in some of the very rough
walls there are enormous boulders, and I don't think they
did that. But even then the rough walls, they you know,
the roughly finished ones still have pretty good joining. They do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
It isn't the same as.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
The cobble stone with mortar, with the mud, you know,
the mud, and then there's mud brick as well all
over the place. A lot of a lot of older sites,
A lot of sites we visited have uh.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Teenage mutant ninja serpents, sounds like there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
A lot of the sites we visited, there's uh like
megalithic finely worked blocks at the bottom of a bunch
of structures or something that's holding up like an aqueduct
or something or a wall. But then the upper part
is just it just turns into mud brick, you know,
and it's plastered and it this is obviously somebody has

(01:02:14):
repaired this much more ancient structure.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
So the use of mud brick and the use of
of basically unhewn rough cobbles, natural stones that they found,
and they may have like chipped them a little bit,
but they didn't shape them at all, just fit them
into walls and used a lot of mortar. So it's
that's the stuff that looks like inca. And again there's

(01:02:39):
there's also this interesting historical fact of the the Inca
ruling families, which is that's that's that word Inca actually
means the high ones, the people who ruled this civilization.
They were slowly using up the existing megalithic plazas and
areas in Old Cousco because each successive family would not

(01:03:03):
use the compound of the previous ruling family. They would
have their own, so they would rebuild it, fix it up,
and they'd live in that. A couple of generations would
go by, and then some other family would take over
running the place, and then they had their own, and
then eventually the latest ones, the older ones are the
most recent ones. They had to build them completely because

(01:03:23):
they had run out of megalithic ruins to use, and
so the latest ones were built completely out of cobbles
and rough stuff and mudbrick. So I guess another argument
could be made for that that well they were becoming
you know, they were less wealthy at the end, or
they were being destroyed by the Spanish, whatever, but you know,

(01:03:43):
so they were not able to build these beautiful or
something happened in their culture. But I think I think
it's just as good an explanation as that they found
these ruins and they were occupying them, including the enormous
amount of roads like megalithic roads and aqueducts that just
go for miles and miles through the mountains. The roads

(01:04:04):
go for thousands of miles all the way up and
down the entire and you could be South America driving
down a valley and there's just mountains in the distance
all along and you can see this straight line of
an aqueduct just going along some ancient and it was
carrying water from some melting glacier somewhere up in the
Antees and just supplying all of these terraces with water.

(01:04:28):
It's crazy, the amount of infrastructure that the ancient infrastructure
that just is scattered throughout the andes there. It's unbelievable.
And we you know, we spent I don't even days
in the bus driving past this stuff. And you're just
like it's non stop terracing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
I'm not even really, I don't think even interested in
entertaining the standard model that it was all the Inca.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Okay, I mean that's just me personally.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
I mean we can make arguments for it, but for me,
it's it's like, dude, it's clearly too when you can
when you can see this same stone work in Egypt,
the same tools, the same method, the same all the same,
there's something else going on. Yeah, it's the same, the
corey marks, the stuff that you see. It's just it's
so exactly the same as with the stuff we find

(01:05:18):
in Egypt. And then there's the actual known for sure
INCA stuff, and I'm fine with that. How how big
of stones were they able to move? I'm not really sure,
but the hypothesis is they couldn't actually move very big
stones very easily. The Spanish watched them doing it and
working at it for days with some big stones, and

(01:05:39):
it was like, okay, people die. Yeah, it wasn't actually
an easy process for them, which is understandable. So I
think that we're clearly talking about at least two different civilizations,
especially when you throw in Posnansky's stuff with Withku and
all that. So I guess from there, I would just
say that. And even the early archaeologists that were looking

(01:06:01):
at all this stuff, they were like, clearly, there's two
different civilizations, like two different periods here.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
That a lot even in mainstream sources you can find,
they will they'll say, well, you know, the Inca maybe
did all this stuff, but it's possible that the earlier
to you whenok and civilization is responsible for some of
this stone work. I think, yeah, but they think earlier
to you and Akan civilization is like one hundred a
D to eleven hundred DAT or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
But again, Yusuf was constantly pointing out.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Reuse, reuse, reuse everywhere we went. Right, you can see
the efforts to quarry stones the same feather and wedge
stuff we would see in Egypt. You can see that
a stone that used to be in this part of
the wall with the pillowy stuff was now stuck over
in this cobblestone wall. And like it's it's clear reuse
of stone. And so we could be talking about not

(01:06:53):
just the Inca, but even whatever preceded them. There was
already thousands of years of reuse going on. Yeah, and
I think use have kind of made that point pretty clear.
Everywhere we went. It was just like, oh, yeah, you're right,
that is totally not where it should be. And there's
marks on here, like looking like they'd cut it in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Half, and yeah, that's right. Yusuf's got a keen eye
for it because he's very used to seeing it in
Egypt everywhere, like the reuse of ancient stones all over
the place, and sometimes multiple reuses, like it was used
again and again and again. It's got multiple different carvings
in it. Yeah, and he would just see like, yeah,
this one right here, obviously that's not its original position,
so that's been re used at least once. But then
you can look elsewhere and see like, oh well maybe

(01:07:34):
it's actually this is a rebuilt wall from using materials
from another area that was rebuilt then, and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
It's just right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
So yes, the idea that these structures are actually incredibly
ancient is really the idea that I come down on
as well. It's something in the very deep past, you know,
was going on with human civilism in this part of
the world, end over in Egypt and some other places,

(01:08:03):
and it just stopped. And this the ability to do
this stuff was lost, and then you know, if you
want to go even, let's go a little more out there,
like maybe the other thing that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
Sorry, but they didn't have writing. Yeah, whoever was doing
this wasn't writing and carving all over the walls. Where
else do we notice that? Yeah, in Egypt, wherever these
types of structures are, there's no writers, no freaking walls,
that's right, no imagery at all.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Yeah, no writing, no imagery.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
And the Assyrian, you know, the pyramids that were cased
didn't have writing. And then like all of the dynastic
Egyptian stuff is every surface is covered in their art,
in their art and their story.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
You know, that makes me think of It's like, I
can't think of any specific examples now, but I know
I've read about this where people are people in modern
times are complaining that's in some ancient texts, the authors
are referring to something that they never explained because they
expect their audiences to completely know what it is. In

(01:09:08):
other words, they don't feel like they have to tell
you this. Yeah, right, and that's that's why these guys
were like, we don't have to, we don't have to
draw on these things. Everybody knows who built this when
you come up to a twelve nub doorway, obviously, yeah, exactly,
no one's gonna question who made this wall. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Yeah. So this is the other side of basically this
large field. I don't know if you all were watching
behind me in the video, is the gigantic megalithic walls
that we were just walking past for the.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Last thirty forty minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
This is the side that has this geological anomaly that
may be an extrusion of andesite. It looks like limestone
to me, which is really strange. It's and to site
according to the books, I love this one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Is it really that's what they said it was. It
was andesite. So Dave was right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
It's Dave was right. It's an extrusive some kind of
lava like it's it's basically already solidifying and it's being
forced out of a small solidified opening.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
That's the nature of antisites and rhyolites. They're exclusive like that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):
Yeah, this corner block was amazing. I was like, whoa dude,
the way they cut this, and then they look, here's
the natural bedrock and they shaped that natural bedrock in
the corner there and they're stacking the stones on it.
It's just like, dude, the they treated the natural bedrock
just like it was a stone and just ground. Then
however they made the joins, they conformed to each other.

(01:10:42):
The stone and the bedrock now conform. And there's so
many places where the stone walls have been completely destroyed
or removed, and the bedrock is just left with these
little squareish pits in a stair step pattern going up
or down or along the right was on their on
an nocky iPads. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. That's good. Yeah,

(01:11:06):
but you don't need it right on stone if so.
Look up there in the video on an occupad. So
you see the stone walls, these square walls, and then
there's all this natural bedrock. They're form fitting these walls
directly into and on the bedrock.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
And so this hant and patcha stuff. This is kind
of like one of these things I've been going on.
I think, not all. There's plenty of hant and pacha
that the the rock cut stuff that doesn't does not
fit this particular thing, but a whole lot of it does.
Where there are these pits and they look like strange
butter knife cuts out of the freaking bedrock. But that

(01:11:43):
was where a stone, an ashlar, a rock wall, or
a some masonry was sitting. And often you'll see these
really weird sort of like I don't know how to
describe them, but just like bowl shaped square cuts in
the rock going up like almost like a staircase. But

(01:12:04):
it's like that's not a proper staircase because it was
actually stones that were stacked on a wall going up
the side of the thing. So now you can see this,
see this pattern here on the left, this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Slide.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
This is the massive extrusive and and a site that's
being squeezed out in a semi molten or softened form
if you like, some steps. I didn't take great footage.
It was pouring down rain and I was afraid my
camera was gonna get so that that doesn't fit the

(01:12:41):
bill for like a rock wall, but this is just
an amazing geological formation, which is another thing that Russ
was pointing out everywhere we went. Almost all of these
sites are at some very interesting geologic anomaly, or maybe
it's not an anomaly, but.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
Like a unique yeah, like some kind of unique geological formation,
and they would build these amazing sites either on into
or nearby, uh some kind of unique geology.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
Okay, I'm gonna stop this. This is this is a
bad attempt at a short anyways, that's Terminator.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, we've you know, we found that block that you've
that you've talked about with those symbols etched on it.
They they've moved it a couple of times. We were
able to locate it. I did get some good, uh
high resolution photos of it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
It is it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
It does look like somebody carved some symbols onto that thing,
but they're very rough and that may be just a
long period of erosion, you know. But yeah, that block
is very interesting. It is very strange. I couldn't tell
if they were symbols or some sort of pattern, but
we did look at it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
Here's one of the tired stones. Oh yeah, not very big,
not so incredibly large that the Inca, who were capable
of building some of these even gigantic cobblestone, they should
have been able to move this guy. So I don't
even think I think that this this previous civilization is
actually responsible for all the megalithic work, including the cobblestone. Basically,

(01:14:29):
it's not cobbles, they're megalithic boulders, rough cut boulders, rough
broken boulder walls. There's tons of them at at Machu Picchu.
I want to find the.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
What Russ was waiting for a turn to go down
the slide? I did. I waited, and I slid down.
I climbed all over that. It's so strange. I thought.
I was like, is this like some kind of glacial formation?
You know, it's like carved by ice, but the I mean,
I guess the geology saying it's extrusive, which makes sense.

(01:15:02):
It makes more sense than carved by ice, because there
are some places where it'll have this undulation that's going
like this, and then there's another one right next to
it that comes up at a ninety degree angle to
the previous slope, and it just doesn't make sense if
it was cut by ice, But it does make sense
if it was being like extruded as a semi molten
in a semi molten form. But man, what a strange

(01:15:24):
and interesting geological formation that place is. And you can
kind of see why they they sort of encased it
in their megalithic wall and then built sexy woman out
next to it, right, and it's like they revered these
these beautiful natural formations that were unique. What are you
looking for.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
I'm looking for the walls of Cusco video, which maybe
I just deleted it because we posted it on Patreon,
But I've got some chunks here we can just go through.
I just wanted to show some example of the little
peaks in the stone. Oh yeah, I think that small

(01:16:08):
masonry is is maybe even like an attempt at redoing.
So some of the masonry we saw, we had we
had Luke caverns on. I don't remember back when, but
before we went to Peru.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Chat for a minute. He's probably gone now yeah, he said,
he was like, I miss you guys. Yeah, we missed
you too, bro, you got to hang out some more.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
So he came up with the Peruvian gap fat right,
gap fat. So I think that that, like, after looking
at all these all these different walls, I think that's
legitimate for some types. And it's always the small types,
the andesite, small block uh tight join construction. Yeah, so

(01:16:54):
let me see if I can find this. We can
at least just look at Okay, here's a here's a
three minute video. Let's watch this. So this is next
to the hotel where we were staying in the hotel
is right here. But this is an example, I think
of the the use of Peruvian gap fat because what

(01:17:18):
he was telling us was that the blocks only join
at the front surface that's visible, that's where the super
fine joinery is. And actually when you see the blocks
when they're broken apart, you find out that they actually
widen out in the back, so they're all tapered and well,
some of these are not like that's that's really nice.

(01:17:41):
But again you can see that the joins are all
cleaned up, and there's some pretty decent examples of like
the flat surface sort of peeking up into the joins
of two blocks above it or below. That's moving a lot,

(01:18:01):
but in some cases maybe not on this particular wall,
there's one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Kind of kind of like that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
Yeah, and it's not an optical illusion. It actually does this.
And when you see them when the top two blocks
are removed, there's a ridge that goes it goes all
the way back along that the depth of the block.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
It's wild. You can really see it on the inkor
Roca wall because some of the blocks are missing and
you can see a ridge that follows all along the
outer seam. But then anytime there was a join, you
can see a ridge that goes into the depth of
the block itself. It's wild, cameraman.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
You are too close to the wall, moving too hired
this guy. But I will say in some of these
small andesite block walls like this, yeah you will. I
don't know if that's actually moving back or up, but anyway,
you will see that that that the joins are very
fine at the front, and then they get rougher and

(01:19:02):
more there's more gap in the back.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
But only in these small ones.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
Anywhere where there were megaliths, the joins were like perfect
all the way all they went all the way.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
There was no Peruvian gap fat in the megapiths, so
I wanted to point that out.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
We can look at the Incoroca wall here, this is
a fantastic wall. Look at this nub.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Why, yeah, what is the point of that one? Yeah,
this one is again full of you know, all of
the same tool marks that we are familiar with from
Egypt and elsewhere. That the scoops the nubs. This is
the sound of cusco in the morning, early in the morning,

(01:19:46):
and the incredibly fine joinery. Yeah, there's no one normally
this whole area is very busy, but if you get
out there early in the morning, there's no one there.

Speaker 3 (01:20:02):
Anyways. Look at the small blocks at the bottom. Yeah,
they're not even that finally rot and so Yusuf was
pointing out that, like, well, that was probably under the
actual original street level. There were tiles out there that
probably were covering that up. And if they were intending
to flatten all of this, they would have flattened it
down and then it would have curved out right into

(01:20:23):
the street tiles.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
There.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
It's possible that this entire thing has been mostly rebuilt
that it was in it was mostly rubble. There were
some pieces sections of the walls.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
That were still so those bottom stones, yeah, so that
they're actually just because again remember that this is part.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
Of Old Cusco. That these areas were rebuilt by the
Inca rulers to use as their you know, their their
seats of power.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
Yeah, go ahead, I'll risk get in the sniffles so
I can drink this beer, folks.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
And so it's possible if they found this in an
almost completely ruined state and then kind of reconstructed it.
And you can see there's there's whole sections of the
wall where it's fragments of these blocks that have been
put back together very roughly with a lot of mud mortar.
Not not that area. It's it isn't copy. Do you

(01:21:22):
want me to skip forward? Yeah, we can skip a bit, brother.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
Okay, so find know if all my video is actually
loaded up here? Maybe this is it? Mute it, yeah,
I like the sound of it is nice.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
But you so you can see here if you pause
it posit for a second. Well, miss, we we lost it. Yeah, okay,
So up along the top there are now down the
middle of this of the screen is original wall. This
is sections of of original blocks. You can see that
the one in the middle down at the bottom is broken,

(01:22:04):
but they've found both pieces and put them in place
and it fits to the blocks above it. But all
the stones around it are fragments of the same kind
of stone that are now put set in mortar, and
they're more deeply set than the original wall. So all
when you go along this wall you see this. But

(01:22:25):
this allows you to look into the joins as well,
which is what's great. So you can see the ridge
lion going along the outside there.

Speaker 3 (01:22:34):
Okay, right here would be where two stones above.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
This was the join or the.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
Where the scene of two upper stones met. So there's
this concave depression where one stone was, and then another
concave depression over here with this peak in the middle,
which is where the corners of the two upper stones
met and at one point.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
Wild Okay, so a question rebuilt wind, Yeah, that's the question,
is it?

Speaker 3 (01:23:09):
I also love this feature? Yeah, I don't. We don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
Yeah, I didn't. Don't think it's really clear.

Speaker 3 (01:23:15):
You see this. This is another pattern we noticed in
the in the walls. In the design of the walls
is there were there are many places where there is
a non load bearing stone, right, so really this is
the load bearing stone. This one here really isn't bearing
any load whatsoever, so I think. And and this the

(01:23:39):
two wall surfaces, the sides actually taper inward so that
the stone was bigger on the on the face of
it than it was in the back. It was a
wedge shape zone. So it fell out. Yeah, like in
an earthquake, that stone's coming out or it's the secret door.
You just pull it out of there. But there's a
lot of places like this. They would build this sort

(01:24:00):
of structure and then there would be like a almost
like this little stone in the middle that really was
just a complete non load bearing stone. It's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
So yeah, this is and so it doesn't look he's diggy.
The first is saying it doesn't look like lapping because
it's sort of cupped at the edges, which is the
oppostion of what you expect from rubbing them together.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
Right, But if they were vibrating, if it was vibration,
then they will just conform to each other in whatever
whichever one.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
Yes, you're never surface. You're not rubbing it like lapping
like this or even spinning it or whatever. It's just
a just a vibration in place and it just slowly.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
Grown vibrate or sander. Right, you're just sand. You're vibrate
sanding the two surfaces together. And whichever surface or whichever
material is more easily exploited to be removed or oblated
or ground down, that's gonna come out. So you're gonna
end up with a sort of complex surface, which you
see a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
We're not We're not saying this is for sure how
it was done. We're just saying this is a possibility.
I mean, like this, I.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
Think it would produce the features we see.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
That's what we're saying, right, it seems like it would
produce the features we see. That doesn't mean we're completely
discounting other ideas.

Speaker 3 (01:25:11):
Another thing I think that they're doing is they are
definitely prepping surfaces, Like, very often the bottom stone is
the concave surface. If it was random, you would think
the bottom stone would also be convex.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
Sometimes just as often.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
Yeah, that's right, but the bottom stone is very often concave,
which suggests to me that they did a lot of
prep work. But to get them to perfectly conform to
one another, I don't see how you can do that
with just like also the set remove, grind, set remove,
how many cycles of that would you have to do?
And you have to do it with three different freaking

(01:25:49):
surfaces because a lot of times there's a backstone, a
side stone, a bottom stone, so you've got three. Every
time you place a stone, there's the back, the bottom,
and the side. Yeah, you've got three surfaces to do
that with, and it's just no, I'm sorry, Like you
could much easier do it to grind the stone into place.

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):
Also, the joins the join areas were often far more
fine and smooth than the exterior stone. Yeah, they're polished.
Now obviously they've also been protected Yeah, for a lot
longer than the outer surfaces of the stones, So maybe
the outer surfaces were also polished originally. I don't know that.

(01:26:32):
A lot of them look really rough now that could
be that could be erosion. What's happening to it? Is
it just skipping through?

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):
Yeah, I guess it's skipping.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
I don't know why anyway. There's a lot of questions,
but the fact that the the mating surfaces were very smooth.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
To the touch, sometimes like glass like glass, Yeah, crazy, Okay,
with the vibrant based TAZ is asking with the vibration theory,
where's the dust going, where's the where's the worn material?

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
Yeah, you would I think obviously you would want to
aid the process by using water, which is almost all
stone water. So water, well, it makes its own slurry. Yeah, like, yeah,
you could use They could have used like a slurry
of corundum or something, but it's unnecessary because you sand,
you apply sand by the beach, You apply water to

(01:27:22):
the process, and when you start grinding the stones together,
all the bits of grains that come out, they get
saturated with the water and it sort of lubricates the process.
The vibration process creates like cimatic vibrations in the water,
so it's agitating all the little grains of sand and
things that are being loosed from the grinding of the

(01:27:43):
two stones, so that acts as your slurry, and the
water will continually push this, so you would just end
up basically like you would just be having water flowing
over the process while it's grinding, and the grinding would
through the vibration move all of these particles out and
they would just flow down the surface of the stone.

(01:28:06):
So I think I think too that this this what
we see in the surfaces of these stones is worked
in the same way. It's like a vibration tool. This
is what we talked about with the Ossyrian right, with
all of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:28:21):
It's like stone against stone. You've got some kind of tool.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
It's basically you have it. You have the same deal.
You have vibration tuned vibration, so you would tune it
to some slurry. In this case, if you're working the
surface of the stone, maybe you would pour sand and
water over it or some kind of slurry. You would
tune the vibration to that slurry and the tooltip would
basically be the transducer providing the vibration for the slurry

(01:28:45):
to do the grinding action. Or it's almost like a
you think of like a like a jackhammer, right, it's
the same thing. You have a chisel and it's hammering,
but this is like a very high frequency vibration as
opposed to a large motion of jackhammering. Yeah, and so

(01:29:08):
you essentially you can grind away these areas. And like
in the case of the Ossyrian where you have like
what we call the paint roller, right, you've got these
strokes coming down. You see the same thing in the
in the Serrapim boxes, These flat about this wide strips
coming down one after the other on the inside wall

(01:29:29):
of one of the Serrapean boxes, so fine that you
can't see them without putting a flashlight next to the
edge of the flat surface. You can't even feel them.
So it's like a flat edged tool that's vibrating at
a high frequency going down and flattening that surface in
the case of finish work like the inside of a
Serrapem box or the wall at the Ossyrian, but in

(01:29:52):
the case of quarrying, like at the at the Aswan corry,
these tools surfaces would become rounded, right, the corners would
wear away faster, and so you'd end up with a
sort of like round edged tool that you're doing this
what we call the scooping with. But I mean, if
you apply vibration to it, it has all the energy

(01:30:15):
necessary to grind away this material. I don't know how
fast or how rapid it would be, just depends on
the amount of force and the amount of amplitude of
this vibration and the hardness of the tooltip. But like
with again going back to the Jeffrey Appling, he demonstrated
that even with a copper tube, he could plunge a

(01:30:37):
copper tube through quartz using this typical jeweler's ultrasonic drill device. Right,
but the copper would wear away faster than steel, but
it was still possible to plunge it in there. So
you could make all these marks. You could quarry all
this stone using this same exact method. Just like increase

(01:31:00):
the size of the tool scale and in the quarry
you would expect the tooltips to be worn to be
more round. And in cases like working in bulk, because
they're working in book, they don't care what the surface
of the stone looks like. They're just trying to get
the right dimensions for the obelisk or whatever out of
the quarry, so their tools get worn. It's just like

(01:31:21):
using like we use, you know, a dozer or a
baco or whatever. The backco has teeth. They come, they're
they're very square and sharp when you first get them,
and after you use it for a while, it's just
like this round nub. Yeah, at the end of the tooth,
but you don't care because you're not doing finish work.
So like when you're when you're finally doing the flattening

(01:31:44):
of the surface of the wall at the Ossyrian, you
use a brand new tooltip. It's the same exact action,
but you've got a nice flat tool edge and they're
flattening that wall with that tool. That's that's what it
looks like to me. All these little scoopy marks we see,
the rounded things, these are so characteristic of all of
the quarrying marks we see in Swan. Yeah, it's the

(01:32:08):
same tool, Tazindiggy aren't buying it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
That's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
Yeah, it's just a hypothesis.

Speaker 2 (01:32:13):
Boy, Yeah, that's totally fine. Steven thanks for joining.

Speaker 3 (01:32:17):
Man, it's definitely not geopolymer.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Thank you for joining. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's
just it's just an idea we're working on. It may
not be the right one. And that's for invoking Hutchison.
I do. I often think about Hutchison and his the
Hutchison effect itself, you know. I mean, yeah, we're gonna
hypothesize if there is some kind of combination of rotating

(01:32:42):
electromagnetic fields and radio waves and something else that, when
combined together in the right frequencies and amplitudes, can do
something drastic to what we think of as atomic bonds.
Then yeah, I mean, if somebody had mastered that in
the deep past, that is a way better way than
vibration and lapping. I don't have any problem with that

(01:33:04):
at all. I don't think that this was a primitive
I don't think this was done with primitive tools. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:12):
Either.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
This is just so yes, with our idea about lapping
and vibration is not an argument for primitive tools. It's no,
it's an argument for an advanced You would need some
advanced stuff to do this. Advanced in what way? I
mean do they have do they have the equivalence of iPads.
I don't example.

Speaker 3 (01:33:32):
With with nuclear machining. Let's just go with like Max's
idea of nuclear machining. How do you get three surfaces
the bottom, the side, and the back of a stone
that you're putting in the wall to perfectly match the
other two stones? With nuclear machining, you need access to
the surfaces, that's right. If how would you do it?

(01:33:56):
If you used acid to melt away some of the
surface and make it like you know, where you could
easily remove.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
Material, you still need access to the surfaces.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
Okay, so you put the acid on there, you melt
some shit, then you shove the stones together.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
How do you get this softened.

Speaker 3 (01:34:13):
Uh, broken bonds the material, the crusty shit that's sloughing
off of the stone out.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
Vibration and water would get it out.

Speaker 2 (01:34:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:23):
So my point is that, like with this particular idea,
it seems to I don't know how it's possible to
shake up two hundred stone two hundred ton stone.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
Right, how do you get it?

Speaker 3 (01:34:33):
I don't know that, but I'm just saying that the
action of vibration combined like tuned vibration combined with water
would fucking work, That's all I'm saying, and it would
produce the features we see. Yeah, that's what I think.

Speaker 2 (01:34:47):
And so Taz is saying here again like maybe I
think he said meaning Hutchison would explain transportation, because yeah,
some of hutchison experiments seemed that he was levitating some objects,
but vibrating them would also explain tra You could make
them move.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
Yeah, you can move shit if you can vibrate it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:02):
If you can get it vibrating, you can just slide
it along much easier, way easier because you get rid
of the friction problem.

Speaker 3 (01:35:09):
And because with vibration you can so you can, uh,
you could design the particular geometry of the vibration, right,
There's all these different geometries you could come up with.
So if you had some tool that could grab it
and get it vibrating, and you could tune that vibration

(01:35:29):
to the size of the stone, and then you could decide,
like what is the geometry of the vibration. Is it circular,
is it a.

Speaker 2 (01:35:34):
Back and forth? Is it more complex?

Speaker 3 (01:35:37):
You could actually maybe make the stone spin, or you
could make it move one direction or the other. Yeah,
you know what I'm saying. Yep, So I don't know.
I don't know how you do it. I'm just saying
it looks like it could produce the features that we see,
whereas I don't see how other processes where you're working

(01:35:57):
a surface, how.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
Do you how do you get them to perfectly conformed?
Well you, I mean if you if you got the
Jedi sword, like they're talking with the Shamir, you just
have a giant wall and you cut it.

Speaker 3 (01:36:15):
But yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. No, no,
because then in the limestone you can see like the limestone, uh,
sedimentary lines are this way on this stone and then
they're freaking that way on the next one.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Yeah, those are details.

Speaker 3 (01:36:32):
This is what we have to look at.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
Look at the details. I think the sham here could
be this tool.

Speaker 3 (01:36:38):
Yes, the sham here is this this tool that that
is like a transducer for Yeah, like the cone on
that little jeweler's uh drill. It's basically it's it's this
big cone that comes down and then you put the
little tool tip in the end. Yeah, but it's the
cone that's delivering the juice. Man. Yeah, that's the shemier.

(01:37:03):
So it can be this weird freaking device.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
And it does look like they had both. It would
be so cool that they had large, uh like heavy
machinery versions of this tool, like think of something mounted
to tracks or treads that was on an articulating arm
that could reach out and do large amounts of work.
But they also had a handheld versions. Yeah, and then

(01:37:30):
they may have had more precise versions that was mounted
on some kind of guided you know that it was
machine guided. But they're also definitely stuff where it's like
it looks like somebody was using a precision tool or
a tool capable of precision, but using it by hand
and just sort of waving it through, you know. So

(01:37:52):
it's it's wild the amount.

Speaker 3 (01:37:53):
Of sorry, I'm playing a video which this is this
is the outside wall at of the No, okay, this
is this is much much, but this is that like
we're up there the chapel, the little Negolithic area and
this is the outside wall. This is so awesome, Like

(01:38:16):
this is this is just like Egypt Like this these
stones could have come out of a quarry, you know, Egypt,
absolutely and this is what granted and to site what
is it stuff? But this one right here on the corner.

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):
Right look at the scoops.

Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
Look at the scoops, these big long scoopy ruts. Right,
this is the rounded off tool tip from the quarry
and this is the outside. Like again, the structure wasn't
finished because they clearly were intending to flatten these they
flattened the inside anyway. This is just I find it

(01:38:56):
so fascinating that that the prospect that these people were
like in the process of building Machu Pichu, Saxe Woman
and Oyante Tombo at the same time, and they just
freaking tools down, never finished the jop and the it's crazy,
as well as.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
The roomy Punku Rumy Kolka, the giant gateway that goes
that that's the entryway into Cusco. Like all this stuff,
it's just megalithic stuff all over the place and strewn
throughout the mountains and wild Napo and glacier. You know,

(01:39:35):
there's just some very strange stuff in the in the
mountains here, and it does look like there were large
scale projects going on all over the place and all
of them stopped before they were completed.

Speaker 3 (01:39:49):
Yeah, there's a go we're gonna release this video. Sure.

Speaker 2 (01:39:52):
Yeah, lasers never lose their edge.

Speaker 3 (01:39:54):
This is a great point.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
Lasers never lose their.

Speaker 3 (01:39:58):
Sharpness still, how do you how do you how do
you make two surfaces conform? How do you make a
laser make a con.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
Cave curve?

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
And oh yeah, we've got a couple of videos on
Patreon right now that we're supposed to release.

Speaker 2 (01:40:18):
I will publish them on YouTube. Yeah, they're on YouTube
walls of Cusco public.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
And then the Machu Pichu video, which is the Machu
pichi ones like sixteen minutes long, and it's basically the
entire walkthrough that we did with music. It's there's no
discussion or whatever. It's just it's just like the site
was so enormous and so freaking high up there in
the middle of the mountains. It was just incredible. So

(01:40:45):
we took tons of video and there's just this like.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
Did I push the wrong button? Maybe it's fine there
it is, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:54):
Yeah, anyway, yeah, it's just walking through. This is a
little piece of it, and of course not edit it,
like I sped up some parts and whatever. It's it's
it's pretty cool and uh, you know, if you like
the music, it kind of helps with the whole mystery
of the side mystery. Some instrumental but like there's no
there's no voice over, it's just a walk through of

(01:41:15):
the site with music. Yeah, and it kind of gives
you the idea of the scale of this site. It
takes we like walked through it for three hours and
it was just one route.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
Yeah, like this is you can only go this way.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
You can't turn around and go backwards, you can't whatever.
You just take this root. And it's like three hours
of just walking and looking at holy shit, why and
how did they do this? So down here at the
base here you can see this this megalithic sort of
broken stone, right, and then the Inca stuff is stacked

(01:41:48):
on top of it. Was it was that Lama trying
to bite me.

Speaker 2 (01:41:53):
Possible?

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
And look up there this next terrace, like there's these
massive stones this side too. There's humongous megalithic stuff in
these in these walls, and then of course there's all
what I think is the actual Inca work stacked.

Speaker 2 (01:42:09):
Up they found this place in ruins.

Speaker 3 (01:42:11):
Now the megalithic walls are not all the same again,
Like there's the broken stone, like the rough stone megalithic walls,
and then this stuff over here at the end is
being shaped and you're getting more of the pillowy blocks
way back here. But these joins aren't so fine as
what we see at saxey Wama.

Speaker 2 (01:42:31):
But they are being they are on the way to
conforming to one another, right, They're they're getting close. But
the tolerances are way less, and the tolerances are like
equal across the wall. That's right, the same. This is
a this is probably bedrock.

Speaker 3 (01:42:47):
So my point is that the guy building the wall
or the whoever engineered it, said here's the tolerance for
this wall for the scene, and they just didn't make
the seam super tight, and they did them practically the
same all the way across the whole walls. Yep. Then
you get to Saxe Woman and it's like no, no, no,
the tolerance is way super tight, and they did it
consistently all the way across the whole wall, so it's planned.

Speaker 2 (01:43:09):
Yeah, that's my point.

Speaker 3 (01:43:10):
It's like the join tolerances are planned and they're consistent.
But then you can see like where the income came
in or some repair was done later, and it's like, okay,
that's clearly a different.

Speaker 2 (01:43:25):
Totally different level of work.

Speaker 3 (01:43:27):
Sorry about this horrible I cut all this crap out
in the video that we will release the INCA did
an amazing job. You're right they there. I admire all
of the stone work. I don't care who built it,
all of it is incredible. I've like some of the
people in the chat were talking about trying to build

(01:43:50):
rock walls with no more It's yeah, no, it is
not easy. We've done it plenty of times. I've I've
built mortared walls and dry lall.

Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
Like, this is amazing. Right here, this is just amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:44:06):
This would be very and.

Speaker 2 (01:44:07):
Used to pointed out like reusing this. Like you can
see there's rough cobbles, but then there's also blocks that
were clearly shaped both kinds.

Speaker 3 (01:44:17):
And we'll get to a place here where you can
see where the bedrock was cut and shaped.

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):
For these for these stones to fit the national projects.

Speaker 3 (01:44:28):
That was a national project. Yeah, and then the scenery
around here is just incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:44:35):
Yeah. Cow kept complaining right here, he kept complaining about there.
He's like they could have picked like a cool place
to build this, Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:44:43):
Yeah, yeah it be It would be even more awesome
if the scenery was the scenery was good. Yeah, Okay,
right here, this is the bedrock down here, and so
these bottom shades. You can see how well they're shaped
and how find these joins are. But this has all
been rebuilt up here. So this I'm sure this wall

(01:45:06):
had fallen down, but all the way across this bedrock,
the bedrock is just cut and conformed perfectly to these stones.
They're pillowy, their joins are super tight at the bottom layer,
and then as it goes up it gets it gets rough.
So it's a it's a clear sign of rebuilding. There's

(01:45:26):
more of it. I mean, all along this this this
bedrock has been shaped. The bottom stones are very nicely fit,
so there there are layers to this onion. I think, uh,
you know, we're only scratching the surface here, and so
much like other people were pointing out, so much is
still underground. It's a yeah. And and the archaeology is slow.

(01:45:57):
It is super slow. Yeah, that's just the way it is. Sadly,
they just need to remove all this rubble so we
can see what what's underneath. Anyway, all right, it was
a great trip.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
It was.

Speaker 3 (01:46:18):
It was mind blowing. Yeah, we got I have we
have tons of video on like Yanta Tombo, which would
be a great sight to go through in detail.

Speaker 2 (01:46:27):
Got some drone shots of it. Oh man, I got
a chance to fly is.

Speaker 3 (01:46:31):
Really I think one of the most impressive in terms
of these these megalithic blocks finally fit and just the.

Speaker 2 (01:46:42):
I don't know, just the.

Speaker 3 (01:46:44):
You can just tell, even though most of it's torn
down or incomplete, that the that the minds like this,
it was gonna be such an epic sight. It's so incredible.
Oh my god. Yeah, So there's there's a lot to
go through.

Speaker 2 (01:47:05):
The second time we went up to the sun Tiple
at Leonti Tombo, there was a huge uh like parade slash.
It was a slash celebration in town because it was
they were saying it was the one hundred and fiftieth
anniversary of the incorporation of the town of Leonti Tombo.
You know. Rohellia was like it's political, but you know,

(01:47:27):
it's like, we're the town is much older than one
hundred and fifty years obviously, but you know, they're celebrating
one hundred and fifty anniversary. So all these politicians were
in there giving fiery speeches. Fuego fuego up through like
it was great. All these people dancing and everything. The
whole town was out so when we went up to
the site, there was no one there, dude.

Speaker 3 (01:47:46):
Some some like none of the guardians, cops or some
guys like just handed handed us a beer when we
were walking.

Speaker 2 (01:47:54):
I was like, well they all know Rojo.

Speaker 3 (01:47:56):
Yeah they handed it to Rojo.

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):
Yeah, he just hands it to Kyle. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
So when we went up to when we went up
to the site itself, all of the guardians that are
normally there that keep you from doing anything cool or
down in the town for the celebration getting hammered. So
I got to fly the drone a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:48:14):
It was great, dude, that was great. You flew it
from down in the on the street. You just flew
it right up to the site.

Speaker 2 (01:48:21):
Yeah. Well I flew it up there and then down
in the street. It was great. Yeah, yeah, so super cool.
It was really cool. So we can show some of
that as well.

Speaker 3 (01:48:32):
But yeah, I was wrap it up, man, Oh wait,
what let's get this out of the way. Larden not
prep these. So it's probably Anthrax this time.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
Okay, great snake Rose. Yeah you got it out of
the share screen.

Speaker 3 (01:48:50):
I think so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:52):
Yeah, okay, so we got some one up boxes suspicious package.

Speaker 3 (01:48:56):
Yeah, that one's super sus.

Speaker 2 (01:49:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:49:01):
Mm hmm, okay, mmm, I canna find this one box. Yes,
there it is.

Speaker 2 (01:49:17):
It says pure Talk. We got we gotta set ourselves
a cell phone. Oh that's what's kind of heavy.

Speaker 3 (01:49:27):
See what's going on here?

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
Yeah, normally needs are prepped, so it's way easier.

Speaker 3 (01:49:41):
All right.

Speaker 2 (01:49:42):
What have we got? Stones?

Speaker 3 (01:49:50):
Rocks? Rocks?

Speaker 2 (01:49:52):
We love rocks, all right? The note I thought you
guys might enjoy these, Kyle tell soul, you have it
on good authority. Some of these might be dragon's teeth,
oh the original John's Oh sharks teeth, bro bro, Oh

(01:50:17):
my god, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:50:24):
Oh ship dude.

Speaker 2 (01:50:25):
Yeah, this is like this is like currency. Man, these
are amazing. This is megalodon.

Speaker 3 (01:50:36):
That's got to be look at this. Look at these.

Speaker 2 (01:50:40):
Yeah, these are beautiful. Thank you so much, holy holy shit.
And then there's tons of small teeth.

Speaker 3 (01:50:53):
Halloween. Ah, yep, man, that's all.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
What's the other one? What do you got? Beers? Be beers?
Thank you, by the way, for these amazing Is that
from a guild stranger Stranger? Yeah, thank you for the fossils.
These are these are amazing. I'll definitely I'll take one
for the old collection up at the top. Yes, guild
Stranger all right, bro, oh dude, this is the Mirrored

(01:51:24):
Realities is it?

Speaker 3 (01:51:25):
He sent me what I told him. My favorite one
was this is the hop I p a, dude, this
all right right now, this is the celebration.

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
This, this is fantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:51:42):
Thank you so much. Great.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
Yes, also a couple of things I want to say,
thank you all so much for being patient with us
through harvest. And then obviously we took off right after
harvest and went to prove a few announcements though I
am leaving a Yeah, I'm going to the Primordial Tour
in Egypt in like two weeks. Oh yeah, so yeah,

(01:52:05):
Ben and Yusuf I've been talking about I want to
go so that I can just pay attention to everything
that Yusef says, right, because like a lot of times
when we're doing the tours where Kyle and I are
helping host and Ben, you know, we're answering questions and
just hosting, and but Useff will be talking and often
I don't get to pay attention to and he has
all this knowledge, and I've been like, I want to

(01:52:26):
go on the Primordial Tour, which is primarily use Off's tour.
Ben's been doing it with him for years because I
want to just be able to focus and record a
lot of the stuff that Yusuf is saying. Uh, but
this time Ben was like, Bro, the Primordial Tours is
very full. Can you come help? So I'm going to
do that, which is great. I'm super excited about that.

(01:52:48):
Uh what's the other thing? Oh uh some personal notes
to some Discord friends. Mystic our hearts go out to you.
I hope you're doing okay. Frank you too, buddy, suddenly serious.

(01:53:10):
That was perfect music. Yeah, Frank you too, man. I
know you're going through some stuff. Uh, you're strong man,
you can do it. And Ash Shaman miss you. Man.
You should be around more often. I think. I know

(01:53:30):
you've got live stuff going on too, but you know,
and uh, let's see what else, Marty, We're gonna come
visit you man. We miss you as well, Like I
hope you're doing better. And uh, let's see put that
one on the calendar.

Speaker 3 (01:53:50):
We got to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:53:51):
Yeah, we got to go visit Marty. Oh new website.
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:53:57):
Yes, that were we supposed to open with that.

Speaker 2 (01:54:01):
It was either or okay, so there if you go
to brothers atservon dot com. There is a brandspinkin news spiffy,
shiny slick website. Yeah, it's not all fully implemented yet.
The store isn't there yet, but it's like, dude, it's
so much better than the crappy old blogger site that
I was maintaining for years. So my my beautiful wife

(01:54:25):
Elisa has built this site for us, and it is.
It's absolutely awesome. So's way more implementation. There's there's gonna
be a there's a forum. There's like gonna be a
place for articles, because I've been wanting people like Marty
if he can, and Cheese and Martin Ye to publish
things on the site, and maybe other people if they're interested,

(01:54:47):
can publish their work there. Uh, we're gonna have photos,
like a whole gallery, you know, just there's gonna be
a whole bunch of stuff. But yes, the brand new
site is up.

Speaker 3 (01:55:00):
So okay, let's see, let's make sure it works. There.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
We got there. There's some of the drone footage from Peru. Yeah, diggy,
the discord link is on the new site. It is there.
I don't know where, un she told me. Yeah, go
go to like about that about us. She's taking it

(01:55:29):
off because we don't the story isn't fully implemented. She
don't want people placing orders for stuff. It didn't gonna
happen yet.

Speaker 3 (01:55:35):
All right, I was supposed to deliver. Oh about us? Yeah,
it's just a host, a geopolymer, extraordinaire watcher, co host
and researcher, master of the Internet, quantum yoga in the
hyper sleep Cool.

Speaker 2 (01:55:55):
Chris no I promised the discord link is in there somewhere.
She was showing it to me earlier today. I just
don't know, or is the discord link in the website anyway?
Like I said, it's it's mostly done. There's some work
to be done on it still. But yeah, I did
want to announce that because people were.

Speaker 3 (01:56:15):
Dude, we're gonna have a forum.

Speaker 2 (01:56:16):
People kept giving me because I've been saying for years,
like we got a new website coming, It's finally happening.

Speaker 3 (01:56:24):
What is this groups? This forum is from join so
that you can already join the forum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
all right, another place that I will barely ever lurk. Yeah,
but yeah, it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:56:42):
It's yea, and I do know the discord link is
in there. She showed it to me. I just don't
know where exactly it is.

Speaker 3 (01:56:48):
Come on, bro, you don't know where it is? Podcast
tours and events. Look at that fancy.

Speaker 2 (01:57:01):
Yeah, look at effortless fashion bucket hat.

Speaker 3 (01:57:08):
I don't know where it is either.

Speaker 2 (01:57:10):
Support mm.

Speaker 3 (01:57:16):
Send us an email, stay updated, support the show, send
us a tip. They're all tips now. Anyways, it's a
beautiful sight, Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:57:31):
Is it at the bottom.

Speaker 3 (01:57:34):
Anyway, it's work in progress. But the launch, the launch
has happened. That's great. We got to write some stuff,
you know, complain about things.

Speaker 2 (01:57:45):
In articles. Also, there's a links to Dynasties stuff there,
Kyle's band, the link to Turtle Creek, which is the
wine we make because people have People are always asking
how where do we find the music?

Speaker 3 (01:57:59):
Where do we find you?

Speaker 2 (01:58:00):
Yeah? Yeah, very cool. And I know the discords in
there somewhere. I just don't know where because I didn't
build the site. Sorry, I'll figure out where he is.
I'll let you guys know.

Speaker 1 (01:58:15):
Ah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:17):
But yeah, we will try to get back on a
weekly schedule here at least until I leave. Oh well, yeah,
that was the whole plan.

Speaker 3 (01:58:30):
Yeah, busy times straight to pyramids, straight to pyramid pyramid scheme. Yeah,
we'll go to pyramids and we won't do shows.

Speaker 2 (01:58:37):
All right. Thank you guys all for watching the show,
for being patient with us and supporting us in every
possible way. We love you, We always have always. Good
night of Damu.

Speaker 3 (01:58:49):
Get back to work, y'all. I'm not going to switch
over to that video because it'll just be diving. It'll
let's check it. Let have it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:03):
Why is it diving every time? Hi?

Speaker 1 (01:59:38):
Everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to the
Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell him, Hey,
do you have the app? It's the best way to
listen to the Fringe Radio Network. It's safe and you
don't have to log in to use it, and it
doesn't track you or trace you, and it sounds it's beautiful.

(02:00:01):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app? Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com
right at the top of the page. I know, slippers,
we got to keep cleaning these chimneys.

All Episodes

Sacsayhuaman and Mysteries of Peru - Snake Brothers

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Are You A Charlotte?

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Sacsayhuaman and Mysteries of Peru - Snake Brothers