September 22, 2025 • 57 mins
You think you know the Son of Sam story—lone gunman, demon dog, case closed. But what if the real story is way more tangled, way more sinister, and still unfolding? In this kickoff to a multi-part series, Brandon and Lindsy crack open Maury Terry’s The Ultimate Evil, exploring occult networks, multiple shooters, and a satanic underground that spans the country. From Yonkers to Minot to LA, this episode sets the stage for a wild conspiracy ride. Is Berkowitz just a fall guy? Who were the Carr brothers? And why was the case slammed shut so fast? You’re about to find out.
https://unrefinedpodcast.com
Timestamps:
00:52: Brandon and Lindsy set up the series
01:50: Berkowitz and the demon dog narrative
03:13: Maury Terry and the deeper trail
04:06: Breakdown of the Son of Sam timeline
06:27: The 44 caliber killer gets a name
08:50: The famous Breslin letter
11:06: Berkowitz’s arrest and eerie confession
13:26: Eyewitness contradictions and sketch inconsistencies
15:51: Political motives and the Netflix angle
18:11: Enter Maury Terry and his obsession
20:36: Discrepancies in the letters and handwriting
23:01: Untermeyer Park, rituals, and satanic signs
25:16: Political pushback and Terry's credibility
27:43: Process Church teaser and cult networks
30:05: Berkowitz’s confession vs. fear and silence
32:23: Military ties and the Carr brothers
34:46: Suspicious deaths of the Carr brothers
37:12: Minot cult ties and law enforcement tensions
39:30: The Process Church’s expansion into America
41:59: The theology of the Process Church
44:26: Lawsuits, censorship, and occult influence
46:50: Origins in Scientology and compulsions analysis
49:09: Lindsay on Manson, cult overlaps, and biker connections
53:53: Connections to Scientology and suppressed research
55:47: Cliffhanger and setup for part 2
https://unrefinedpodcast.com
Timestamps:
00:52: Brandon and Lindsy set up the series
01:50: Berkowitz and the demon dog narrative
03:13: Maury Terry and the deeper trail
04:06: Breakdown of the Son of Sam timeline
06:27: The 44 caliber killer gets a name
08:50: The famous Breslin letter
11:06: Berkowitz’s arrest and eerie confession
13:26: Eyewitness contradictions and sketch inconsistencies
15:51: Political motives and the Netflix angle
18:11: Enter Maury Terry and his obsession
20:36: Discrepancies in the letters and handwriting
23:01: Untermeyer Park, rituals, and satanic signs
25:16: Political pushback and Terry's credibility
27:43: Process Church teaser and cult networks
30:05: Berkowitz’s confession vs. fear and silence
32:23: Military ties and the Carr brothers
34:46: Suspicious deaths of the Carr brothers
37:12: Minot cult ties and law enforcement tensions
39:30: The Process Church’s expansion into America
41:59: The theology of the Process Church
44:26: Lawsuits, censorship, and occult influence
46:50: Origins in Scientology and compulsions analysis
49:09: Lindsay on Manson, cult overlaps, and biker connections
53:53: Connections to Scientology and suppressed research
55:47: Cliffhanger and setup for part 2
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
So yeah, there's just so many weird you can't place
them in the same building, but they had to have
been situation.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you for joining me on the Unrefined Podcast. I'm
your host Brandon Spain along with Lindsay Waters, where each
week we delve into the mysteries that shape our world,
from the tangible to the supernatural, with the foundation rooted
in biblical truth. For more content and exclusive resources, visit
us at Unrefined podcast dot com. Now let's dive into
(00:48):
this week's episode. Hey, hey, hey, y'all, we've got something
wild for you today. Lindsay and I have been doing
some research and we're about to unravel a case that's dark,
way more twisted than the headlines ever told you. The
so called Son of Sam murders. Now, you probably heard
the basic version lone gunman, talking demon dog, case closed.
(01:12):
But what if that's not even close to the truth.
What if David Burkwitz wasn't the only one pulling the trigger.
We're even calling the shots in this first part of
a multi episode series. We're going to pull at the threads.
Maury Terry followed cults, coded letters, manson connections, satanic rituals,
and a possible coast to coast network of evil hiding
(01:33):
in plain sight. This is going to be the beginning
of a fun deep dive. We kind of just got
interested in this case, and Lindsay's always kind of been
interested in the whole Manson the family, that kind of stuff,
and this kind of led us to a trail that
led us to the Sons of Sam is what we're
(01:54):
going to call it. It's like a network type situation
which we're going to get into. So everything we know
about the Son of Sam case that actually in a
lot of ways still open, right Lindsay, It's a closed
case on paper, but if people are still investigating this,
aren't they? And that you're understanding there was this new
Netflix show which the new book has a thing on
(02:18):
there about the Netflix show and which is really interesting.
We'll get into that probably in a few minutes about
our perception of that what if David Burkwitz wasn't the
only killer in the whole Son of Sam ordeal? So
to go into that, you know, we're going to have
to kind of lay lay the foundation and and and
(02:40):
just look at the different perspectives of this that David
Burkwoods didn't act alone that he wasn't just spoken to
by a dog and told to do this, which we'll
get into. What we've been diving into is that basically
that there's a real, very high probability I would say, Lindsay,
that that this is connected to a secretive cult with
(03:02):
Charles Manson, satanic rituals, and even other serial killers. The
more we've dove into this, a new one came up
on my radar a few weeks ago, the Zodiac killer
possibility a tie with it. And even in this book
of Mary Terry's, somebody alluded to some connections to the
Hillside stranglers and it begins to make you wonder how
(03:25):
many crimes have been committed that and he talks about
that Mary Terry, which we'll get into in his book,
a crime that occurred before the Sons of Sam that
they think was connected to this, but they didn't have
the framework yet, the forty four caliber killings hadn't started
happening yet for them to piece it to it. So basically,
(03:46):
today Lindsay and I are we're going to be taking
a deep dive into Mary Terry's book and just other
stuff that we've done research on, some stuff from Ed
Sanders just to begin this journey into the Sons of Sam. So, Lindsay,
(04:07):
just give us a basic overview of the general case,
what's known and all that out there.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
No, starting summer of nineteen seventy six, New York had
a rash of shootings, usually women. I was kind of
summer disco was kind of a thing, and you also
had punk rock, and I had to mention that and yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, punk rock.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
These the shootings were all connected. They were all kind
of young women. And you know, if there was a
man there, he would usually get it to but it
seemed to have been targeting women.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
The first one was in July seventy six. It was
in the Pelham Bay area of the Bronx. It was
Jody Valenti and Donna Lauria and we're just sitting in
a car. A man approached and fired three bullets. Aria
was killed instantly. Valenti got in the thigh. She survived.
She described her attacker as a white male in his thirties,
(05:04):
approximately five eight, two hundred pounds, short, dark curly hair.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And now listen to this, you guys. This is important.
Lindsay's describing these guys because it's going to become something's
going to become quite apparent as he continues to describe
these these guys, you keep going.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Bro October twenty third of seventy six, two more people,
Carl de Naro, aged twenty, and Rosemary Keenan, were shot
in the Flushing Queen's area. Both survived. Denaro was struck
in the head by one of the bullets. Police would
later speculated Naro may have been mistaken for a woman
(05:41):
due to his long hair. November twenty seventh, nineteen seventy six,
a couple is attacked by a man in military fatigues,
Donna Demassi sixteen and Joanne Lomino eighteen.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Now, was there a was there a type Lindsey that
these this killer seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I forget it seemed like I know there was a
hair color because women started dyeing their hair red.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That ye yeah different, Well read.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, I want to say it may have been blonde
to begin with.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, you guys, there's a lot of a lot of this,
So we have to reference this because there's so many
details that it's impossible to remember. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So January thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven, Christine Freud and her fiance,
John Deal, were shot as they sat in Flushing, Queens,
so we're still mostly in Queens. Deal had minor injuries.
Freud was shot twice and later died in the hospital.
There appeared to be no motive as far as they
(06:51):
could tell at this point.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah. Have they connected these yet?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean, I think just so far it's just the
forty four caliber bullets.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah. Yeah, so he was dubbed the forty four caliber killer.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And in the assailant appears to be attacking young women
with long, dark hair.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
At the time, police said they were looking for multiple suspects.
So see so January thirtieth, they're looking for multiple.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Suspects, multiple y'all keep that inm on now, this is important. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
March eighth, seventy seven, college student named Virginia Volksian was
shot and same neighborhood re Freund was shot and the
head died instantly, With local newspapers and daily news, New
York Poops now reporting on the shootings on a daily basis,
was revealed at press conferences two days after vul Scherkian's
(07:45):
murder that police strongly suspected the same forty four bulldog
revolver had been used in the.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Attacks, which is not a very common pistol to use
for this type of thing, right, Yeah, it's rather uncommon, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So April seventeenth, nineteen seventy seven, the killer announces his identity.
In the early hours of the morning Valentina Suriani eighteen
and her boyfriend Alexander Esau, twenty, they were sitting in
Sirianni's car in the Bronx when they were shot twice.
Esau died at the scene. Sirianni died later in the hospital.
(08:22):
For the first time, the killer announced his identity via
a handwritten note left for the police at the crime scene,
which he referred to himself as son of Sam and
promised killings would continue. May thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven. Columnists,
This is the famous Breslen letter.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, who's Breslin?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He was a He was a columnist for the Daily
News of Jimmy Breslin. He Yeah, this was the famous
Hello from the Gutter, I believe, Yeah, yeah, which was
an interesting letter. We'll talk about it later. June twenty,
sixth seventy seven, a couple of attacked outside of a club.
(09:04):
Judy Placido and sal Lupo were shot while sitting in
Lupo's park car. Both survived injuries, with Lupo Reporti reportedly
telling the police he and Placido had been discussing the
son of Sam Killer's only minutes before the attack. July thirtieth,
nineteen seventy seven. The first attack involving a victim with
(09:26):
blonde hair. This was an important one. Yes, Robert Villalenti
and Stacey Moskowitz were shot in Valenti's car while on
their first date. Valenti would lose his left eye. Moscow
Wits would die eighteen hours after the attack. Again, this
is the first one with blonde hair. Days later, a
nine witness would come forward. I believe that's claiming to
(09:47):
have seen the man with man with what looked like
a gun minutes before the Brooklyn shooting and other police
officers were riding parking tickets in the same night. Yeah,
so we had one of those. Was definitely Burkelewitz he
ticketed that night.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, he was there, he was there.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Stacey Mosquitz, when you guys is super important. I never
we'll forget.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
We watched footage on the Netflix stuff and then in
other places of her mother. Her mother was just uh
just distraught. It showed I don't know how they got
away with this in the media at the time in
the seventies, showing her and you know, just she was.
She was beaten on that I remember was a police
officer or or her husband. She was so angry and
mad and that that just that just stuck in my
(10:35):
heart seeing that mother, you know, feeling that way, and
and she developed a hatred for for burke Witz. But uh,
the interesting thing is it flipped later and she became
an advocate, not not you know, she she knew he
was a criminal, but but she became an advocate for
another theory, which we'll get to later on.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So so yeah, in August tenth, seventy seven, David Berkowitz,
I mean we've all probably heard of him before. It
was h of Yunkers is finally arrested. He had been
investigated for a while. Police found his car and discovered
a rifle in the back seat, maps of the crime
(11:17):
seams and ammunition. They waited until he left his apartment
and arrested him. I said something about like what took
you so long?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Well, and that that eerie smile. Yeah, you'll never forget
all the marchers. The smirk. Yeah, when he's when he's
been brought in, that that that smirk, that smirky smile,
you know, like, uh, but you know, even even right
right then, there was a lot of just really suss things,
which we'll get into the mosque Moskowitz killing and how
(11:48):
it all came out. We'll have to detail that probably
later on because it's kind of complicated. But yeah, and
uh and so what did what did Burke would say?
I mean, what was his story? You know when they arrested.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Him initially he just kind of confessed to all of them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, but his his emma was when he was trying
to maybe make himself seem insane that he was here.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I mean obviously. Yeah, the dog, he claimed, a
dog of his neighbor was giving him messages in his
head and telling him to go kill these people.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And yeah dog named Sam.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, dog named Sam, which is important.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So yeah, case closed basically.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, exactly exactly. Yeah, that's what we need to do.
I want to focus on this and if there's any
law enforcement out there. I'm not meaning to be smirch
you or anything like that, but in this case, the police,
and I'm setting this up a little bit, they really
got tunnel vision once he came forward, lone gunman, deal done,
like you said, case closed, yea. And so that causes
(12:58):
policeman to not really look into any other areas or
avenues or other cases, or even look before these cases
to see if there's any similarities or anything like that too.
And so yeah, that's just the narrative that came out
when he was arrested and was put out there. But remember,
you guys, like Lindsay said earlier, they at first believed
(13:21):
multiple suspects because why.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Well, for one, the different descriptions were were vastly different.
If you just look at the composite sketches from that time,
I mean, you've got curly hair, straight hair, longer hair,
short hair hair, skinny guy, heavy set guy. I mean, yeah,
different noses, and to be fair, yeah, we all know
(13:45):
composite sketches and eyewitness accounts aren't super accurate all the time,
but these were just very vastly different.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Also, night and day different.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I mean Tommy Zano, one of the guys who
was a witness at the Moskowitz, he described a guy
he saw the guy walk up and shoot into the car. Yeah,
he described a guy who was kind of slender and
had longer hair.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And blonde like kind of parted down the middle.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I think, yeah, yeah, possibly wearing a wig, but definitely
not burkle Witz has been. In fact, the first time
he saw Burkewitz. Uh and Yeah, Unsolved Mysteries episode, Season one,
episode six and seven did a great segment on the
well couple segments. They did two parter back in the
(14:36):
late eighties, and they actually had Maury Terry on and
they went into some of the mine not North Dakota
stuff We're going to go in later. But yeah, yeah,
he said when he first saw burkele Witz, He's like,
there's no way that guy got that fat. That was
his own word, that got that fat that quick? I
mean he was a he would you know he was
a stocky guy.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, short stocky.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, a short, stocky guy. And this guy was clearly
a skinny guy with much different hair.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So yeah, hey, what episode was that where the people
can maybe go back and listen to it. I'm gonna
put it in the show notes, but it was season
one episode.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Season one, episode six and seven. It's the first segment
on episode six. It's like segment two or three on
episode seven. But yeah, that's on free on several streaming platforms.
Yeah yeah, so you yeah for sure, Prime for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah. So wow. So here we have the case and
and and here enters, uh politics, which we'll get into later,
goes deeper than politics. I mean, politics are involved, but
at the initial here we have a mayor that is
(15:44):
desperately fighting for his political career to stay a mayor.
And we know how I mean, let's just face it,
politicians are you know they He wanted this case closed,
he wanted dealt with, and he wanted to take the win.
You know, he wanted to take the w n his side.
And and so let's push it through. This is it.
(16:05):
And uh, there was a lot of interesting police type
I mean, we might as well go in references. Netflix
did an entire documentary on this which we watched, but
definitely had an angle and we haven't figured it out yet.
Definitely had an angle. It was based on MARII Tery's book. However,
(16:26):
when you read the book and watch the Netflix you're like,
what these are? This is the same story. And Lindsay
had watched it first and he told me about it,
and I was like, nah, I can't differ that much.
But I read a complete book and it's just so
much to it that was left out, which was really interesting.
So and we'll dive more into that and in this
(16:47):
episode and episodes to come, and we have a guest
that's coming on, it's really going to go into the
whole cult aspect of it. So, uh, Burkwit's is in there.
And there was this big uh controversy that that muddy
muddy the waters and I wonder if it was intentional
of some people got a guard to take some pictures
(17:08):
of him sleeping in his cell, and that was a
big scandal. And I think the guy that got it
he went to jail, didn't he, lindsay, the guy that
not not the guy that took the pictures, but the
guy that that paid the guard off.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
The Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
He went to jail for that, which I don't know
what kind of crime that is came out on I
think it was a New York Post cover of him
asleep in his cell, which is you know that that
means there was an inside man and taking pictures and
observing him and stuff. Anyway, that that just muddied the
waters and made things even more confusing. Let's kind of
(17:48):
jump into Mary Terry's life now and how he enters
this and and kind of let's go at it from
his perspectively.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's interesting to me he lived in yonk or Is
at one time.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, Mari, Maury did, yeah, right near like I think may.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Have even sort of known the cars that even who
we're going to get more into later. Sorry, jumping the
gun there, but yeah, no you're not.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You're not really jumping the gun because that's where they
rested him at was in Yonkers. He had a parking
ticket and they and they went up to his car
and he said, look, you got me. Yeah, I'm the
son of you know, I'm the son of Sam. I'm
not don't quote me exactly for that, but I mean
it was just no coercion, no nothing. He just spilled
the beans. Which is really interesting. But Yonkers was a
(18:40):
part of of all this. And and Maury Terry, I think,
I really do think that, you know, he was interested
in this kind of stuff because he was working at IBM,
and he was born with his job, and but I
think what really pulled him into this was the fact
that he lived in Yonkers, super closed like blocks from
where where uh on that apartment complex that Berkwitz lived in.
(19:04):
So he got pulled into it, and man did he
get pulled into it? You know, part of me when
I was reading this book it, I really had a
lot of empathy for him because I know with my ADHD,
I know how I can get sucked into a focus
on something and you just go down this rabbit hole,
and you go down a rabbit hole and if you
(19:25):
don't have I mean, this is good for you podcasters
out there that listen to us and other people that
are interested in all this this kind of stuff. You know,
you've got to have safety measures in place where you
don't go down the rabbit holes and don't get out.
And Mary Terry is a lesson for that. And I think,
I think that's why our relationship with Christ and having
(19:46):
other interests in hobbies and all it all comes in
handy to keep us from getting sucked in to evil,
you know, the ultimate evil. So anyway, that's sidebar, but
I just think that's an important thing to realize, you know,
because we're interested in the stuff. We don't like the crimes,
but we're interested in stuff and finding out deeper things,
(20:07):
but we need to be have some preventatives in our
lives to keep us from going deep. So so Maury
was reeled in, and you know, he started seeing cracks
in the story. I guess is a better way to
put it. So what are some of the things, lindsay
you think that that we're the big things that really
stuck out to Maury?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Well, we already talked about the different descriptions of the assailant. Yeah,
that's huge, and the handwriting of the different letters, the
handwriting of the Breslen letter, and just the style and
sophistication of it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, the codes, right, yeah, it appeared. And I don't
want to insult Birkwood's because I mean, he's a Christian
now and and I you know, I'm for him. I'm
glad he's he's a brother in the Lord. But supposedly
i'll throw that in. I don't want it, but but
I'm I'm gonna believe the best. But but he didn't
(21:04):
have to me the intelligence level to do some of this,
some of these codes that were in these letters that
came out. I know he did do some of them,
but I just don't see him as the mastermind. And
it's it's quite apparent when those letters start coming out
that it seemed like he was less than the master fund.
What do you think about that, Lindsey?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Do you? Yeah? The the letter dropped at one of
the crime scene and the Breslan letter were just very different.
And I mean the handwriting, yes, different according to a
handwriting expert expert, yeah, yeah, and so yeah, just things
like that. And then Terry, you know, slowly but surely
(21:44):
started seeing these weird connections with this shadowy group that
was supposedly meeting at Ontermeyer Park and yeah, and the
uh and Yonkers and and stories about dog sacrifices and.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well they were finding a lot of German shepherd, yeah, German.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Shepherd uh that had been killed and things like that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, and there was even a supposed eyewitness, which which
Birkwitz later on came and said that it wasn't him,
but there was an eyewitness. And we don't know the
truth with this that that that he tried. Did he
try to get a job with a animal shelter, yes, yes,
and uh yeah and and uh so he was I
(22:33):
think he was denied the job. I think it was
kind of sus that people were kind of suss with him.
But you know, just an avenue to be able to
get the the animals. And if you if you're remotely
familiar with with satanic type stuff and rituals and all
that kind of stuff usually starts with animals. Uh just
has to do with that that sociopath psychopathic type mindset. Uh,
(22:54):
it starts with animals for animal sacrifice. And apparently this
group and undermine our bark, we're we're sacrificing animals. And Uh.
The interesting thing about this is it is Morty started
making connections of where these uh, these areas where they
(23:17):
were doing the stuff were in the gutters. And so
I don't know if that's a good time to talk
about that, but that but you know, they they went
in there and there was obviously, uh, satanic graffiti. You know,
which kids do We did it. I mean I had to,
I hate to admit it. Before I was saved, when
I was a teenager, I used to put pentagrams on
stuff and and we we did. We did a big
(23:41):
iron maiden eddie, We go on a building one time.
We did this whole if you're familiar with that, we
did Eddie from Iron Maiden. So so just because there's scientistic,
there's there's satanic graffiti, doesn't mean it's a cult or
anything more than kids. However, in this situation, Uh, correct
me if I'm wrong. Let's see, I think they found
animal carcasses. I mean in the gutters, did they find
(24:05):
or was that just at different places around the trail.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
They found him in Mara Park, but yeah, yeah, I
don't know if they found them in the gutters.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, And you know, and and then they found one
with with his ear cut off. Remember that that's gonna
be important later. And but also in under Minor Park,
I think there was a Son of Sam symbol on
the wall in the gutters. There was some sort of
it was something that pushed them beyond just a pentagram
and just beyond kids getting sitting down there drinking beer
(24:36):
and smoking pot and being stupid. And it had a
weird macop feeling as a matter of fact that Maury
Terry talked about in there. He felt really weird when
he was in there. I think his I think his
spiritual discernment went off that something evil was going on there,
and he just didn't have the you know, vernacular to
(24:58):
say that, Uh it was. It was truly a brought
an interesting kink to the case. And then that's when
they started getting the political pushback from certain political officer
police officers. There was one in the Netflix I can't
(25:19):
remember his name, and he was hostile even even still
in the Netflix video, he was hostile towards Mary Terry.
Uh it started I can't remember his name started with
a P. I think anyway, I don't remember his name.
Just check that out. But if you check out the
Netflix video, you guys read the book. Don't don't just
trust the Netflix video.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Uh So the book, and I mean so, first of all,
the newest edition of the book. The guy who did
the the Netflix documentary Sons of Sam, Josh Seeman, he
did the forward for it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah he did.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, it's it's basically it's an advertisement now for his
for that documentary. And he kind of befriended Maury Terry.
They hung out and ate tun whiches and and you know,
he just kind of like, I don't know he It
wasn't till I, you know, I didn't really suspect the
(26:16):
maybe I'm just a fool. The documentary convinced me of
multiple shooters in the process involvement. But I could see
a little bit of kind of discredit Mari Terry in there.
But definitely the forward was like he just says, walks
you up to the edge and then backs off and says,
I mean, what if the conspiracy is there is no
(26:38):
conspiracy and no one's in control kind of thing, which
reminded me of that movie Leave the World Behind or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
The same statement they made there to discredit all conspiracy.
So yeah, just keep that in mind when you watch
the documentary and buy the new edition of the book
that yeah, you know, I don't know Josh Ziemon, but yeah,
it just it was a strange way he well.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And the other thing about it too, is is it
almost makes you start to wonder what his angle was
because obviously a lot of these characters that we're going
to get into, a lot of them may still be alive.
And I'm just gonna do some shade tree theologia, not
theologian to some shade tree investigation here and and and
(27:27):
probably think that a lot of these dark characters are
still in power and doing a lot of the same
things that went on back then. And and I wonder
how far this is still you know, journaling it, particularly
when you when you get to the point when we
get to the point where we connect some other other things,
and then we have another guess that's it's hopefully going
(27:49):
to come on and and she's going to dive deep,
hopefully into the processed Church, which we might as well
kind of go into them. I don't want to go
too deep into them because I want to let her,
you know, really just give a basic outline of all
that kind of stuff. But let's just let's just you know,
talk about that, which which I did. I did forget
(28:11):
uh one other thing with the crack and the story
of Mary Terariot. He had later prison interviews which we'll
get to where he admitted to multiple multiple people being involved,
but he was just scared. And I still to this day,
because we have another podcast and a co host coming on,
which is gonna be more more encouraging type podcast. It's
(28:33):
his journey through Christianity and stuff like that. I still,
in my in my mind think that he's lying. I
don't think he's lying because he's trying to protect. I
think he's lying because he's scared and that some of
these players might still be involved in the world and
(28:53):
can get to him in prison, and uh so I'll
just leave leave that alone. Oh wow, we've we've managed
to establish just the basic thing. Okay. Uh, David Burkwitz
is in jail. They're the policeman. And I'm gonna use
this term because I mean, dude, if you can't see
(29:14):
that that they're trying to railroad him through. Uh, policemen
get that. I mean, it's just apparel, apparel of their job.
They get tunnel vision, and they think they got their guy,
and they begin to not look at anything else that
goes outside. And that's not just policeman, you guys, that's
that's investigative reporters, journalists, podcasters, uh, you know, conspiracy theorists
(29:37):
and all that kind of stuff. And and he got sometimes, yeah,
me sometimes. And we we we've got to We had
a you know, an interview with Doug that that we
released where he keeps an I always say this word wrong.
It's false falsibility, I think, is what it's called falsifiability. Falsifiability,
that's it. And we have to keep that in mind.
(29:58):
If if it's so neat and and and vacuum packed,
that there's no way it couldnot be true, that there's
no holes in it, that it's not probably not true.
And uh, I think that's important when we look at
anything like this, is that we could be wrong and
we need to be able to admit that and and
(30:18):
and walk in that. Uh. Maury Terry went down the
rabbit hole so deep that that he would find you'll
see this in the book. He would find excuses for everything,
which he kind of put that principle of falsifiability on
the side. Not judging him, I just understand how it
is to get sucked into something like this, particularly if
(30:40):
you have ADHD. You just you get sucked into this
this type of stuff. So let's talk about the processed church.
This is this is where Maury started pulling the proverbial
thread of the sweater here. And as he started to
pull with these these cracks in the story to going
(31:01):
beyond just a few kids or a little satanic neighborhood
gang cold that a few of the guys were involved in.
And so let's lindsay, let's talk about the cars. I
think that's a good time to start talking about the cars.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Well, the cars, they were a family that lived in Yonkers.
The patriarch of the car's name was Sam. They lived
close to where Burka Witz lived there.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
They had a dog.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
They had a dog, and interestingly enough, John and Michael
two of the sons. Yeah, John's middle name was Wheat.
They had a sister named Wheat as well. That can
get a little confusing sometimes reading it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Uh and in the Breslen letter, John Wheaty's strangler of
young girls or something like that is mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I think he also went by the nickname wheedis whtys.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, yeah, it be.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Wrong, but yeah. He was in the Air Force and
spend you know, kind of back and forth between the
New York area and my not North Dakota where there's
an Air Force base up there. All right, So John
Carr we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Here, Yeah, John Carr, But I want to interrupt you
one second something I forgot that I think is super important.
You know what I'm about to say. Berkowitz was in
the military as well. Yep, he was during the Korean War.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, well, he was stationed in Korea.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
He was stationed in Korea. Yeah, during the Vietnam War.
And uh so you know, we have several and I'm
just going to leave this out there for yall to
use your imagination. We have several government ties in this story,
so yeah, I imagine we'll get to that when we
have our other guest on the on the show.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
But yeah, Michael Carr, the other brother was a younger brother,
younger or older. I want to say Michael was the
older and John was the younger younger. Yeah, Michael was
a scientologist. Just that's important. Did we go into are
we going to from car to the process or yeah? Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,
(33:08):
so yeah, scientology that that's important. After Burka Witz was
arrested and a lot of this happened, John Carr just
takes off and goes back to my not and mysteriously
offs himself.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And if you see the pictures, it's definitely a mysterious
way to off himself there. They're really gory. I'll had
the disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Marlin thirty thirty. The gun fell onto his legs in
a funny way. He seemed to be in good spirits
around the time.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, it just there was a respective six sixty six
on his hand that was there in the blood splatter.
You know, if they had that Chinese guy that was
in the OJ case. I can't remember his name that
was really it's the expert at blood spatter. If they
would have had him there, probably it would have come
out with different But keep in mind, you guys, the
(34:05):
police are trying to that they don't want any more
loose ends. They're they're trying to tie up everything. And
so anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Well, And Michael Carr, his brother died I think less
than a year later in a car accident, really terrible
car accident. So it's just odd that both of them
would die car accident.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
It was very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, burka Witz mentioned them. I
want to say in some of the interviews that they
were a part of of the Untermyer.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Group. Yeah. Group, Yeah, which was you know interesting because
a lot of times in governmental type conspiracies and and
I really think that this was kind of learned from
Masonic type things. Is you compartmentalize people where uh, you know,
(34:58):
and and cartails do this. You compartmentalize people, and therefore
you don't know who the boss is and that but
that person that group doesn't know who the upper is
and who the upper is, and you hear rumors, but
but they compartmentalize and and so this this group was
bigger than just this little group in under our Park.
It was part of a wider network. But but you
(35:23):
know it, it's always very like I said, compartmentalized and
and and and loose. So as Maury continued to investigate
the cars and and all this kind of stuff, what
other what other the kind of things did he find?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Lindsay, well, I mean at some point I can't even
remember exactly how he got on the process, but did
you have something specific in mind there, because I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, no, that's okay, we get that. But now, yeah,
I mean, I'm just trying to lead into the the process,
said saying that out. But uh, yeah, I think it.
I think it Lad from uh the mine.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Not yeah, well yeah and mine not. You know, there
were some weird things. This is in This is in
the Ultimate Eeval. It's also on the The Unsolved Mysteries,
the episode seven, the part of the Yeah Arlen, no, no, no,
I'm just talking about mine not here that she was
(36:24):
from the Bismarck area.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
That's also connected later. But yeah, a guy named Native
American guy who knew uh John Carr named uh Phil Falcon,
Phil Falcon.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Okay, Phil Falcon walked.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
In on John Carr and some guys basically making a
sacrifice of a chicken or an animal in his house.
And yeah, I mean the minor mine not group was was.
I mean, it was kind of this open secret in
the area. Everybody knew that there was kind of the
Satanic cult there.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
The policeman that that that later got involved. It was
really interesting North North Yeah, edit that I was any
the North Dakota Police actually kind of we're we're trying
to work with the uh New York Police. But you know,
(37:23):
you have all the different boroughs and stuff like that. Well,
all the other boroughs except for uh, where were Sanatucci?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Santucci he was in the Bronx. When he in the Bronx, Yeah,
he's the only one that that left this open and
was still looking into us. All the other guys were
like shut and closed, you know. And you begin to
wonder who who issued that order down, you know, perhaps
a mayor that was wanting to, you know, get elected
and and have good favor because I mean a lot
(37:50):
of people don't realize that New York at this time
period was was It was not in good shape. I mean,
it was just and and a lot of uh, I
mean it was it was slummy in a lot of ways.
It's not it's not it's not a well remembered history
of New York during the sixties and seventies. A lot
of it was just the political unrest in our country
(38:13):
and and the racial tensions and and all that kind
of stuff. But uh, yeah, the the the North Dakota
Police of of I wanted to work and they realized
that the only people that were really wanting to work
with them was Morey Terry And yeah, uh one of
the was it was was it one of the guys
that had gotten shot that had he started working with
(38:34):
Malitarry yet one of the I don't think so, okay,
but it was u. But yeah, even in the video
they they have interviews of the Netflix video, they have
interviews of these these these officers that realized, hey, something's
going on here and it's bigger than just a one
man shooter, just just from the ties of John Carr
(38:55):
and even Michael Carr in in my not North Dakota.
And so what what I found interesting, Lindsay is is
as they began to dive into this the Processed Church,
which we'll get to in a second. They had they
had come from England after their little stint down in
South America Ish Caribbean Ish, and they put one in
(39:20):
New York an office. They put one in New Orleans,
and apparently there was one in North Dakota, right was
it it was in Was it in my not or
in Bismark?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
It was?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
It was there.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I mean there were group, there were groups in both
those towns.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
But yeah, there in the Midwest. And then the other one,
which which will connects us to you know, the city
of Angels where we've done a lot of work is
Los Angeles, which we'll get into later. I don't know, lindsay,
we might have to make this a two episode or brother. Yeah,
I mean, we had to scratched the surface here. But
(40:00):
but the Processed Church, let's just let's lay a foundation
for them who they are, what they are, you know,
give them a little background. You've done some diving into
them without without going too much into it where we
let our other guests dive so well.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, I mean I had heard about them years ago,
just casually reading about Manson and they would come up
in different things.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Actually noticed the name. He just said Manson. Interesting, that'll
come back.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Well yeah, well, and you know, I watched a documentary
years ago by Josh Demon called Cropsy that relates to
all this. A guy who worked at a institution mental
institution in uh Staten Island, which connects to all this too,
(40:52):
was accused of kidnapping kids and killing them. And yeah,
there was a there were rumors of a similar group
in Staten Island, so and anyway, yeah, the process Church
of Final Judgment was started in England in the nineteen
sixties by a guy named Robert de Grimston I think
(41:15):
he was born Robert Moore and his wife Marianne to Grimston.
She was like a former stripper and claimed to have
been married to a Sugar Ray Robinson or some one
of some boxer at one point made her way to
England and they started out as Scientologist and just didn't
(41:41):
like that organization and kind of broke away and started
their own group. They kept the E meter initially, things
like that.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And for those of you who don't understand what he's
talking about with Scientology, they it is a self help religion.
I mean it's not a specific deity type religion, but
it is still a religion because it deals with spiritual
things and they use these they audit you to to
change your character and to form you, and they use
(42:10):
these e readers. I just wanted to throw that out there.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah. So, yeah, you know, they kind of broke with
with scientology and started their own group, started gathering young
people around them, and their their sort of theology was
this very strange sort of almost kind of a trinity
of Jehovah, Lucifer, and Satan. Those Lucifer and Satan were
(42:34):
like two different gods.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Very Zoroastrian to me. Yeah, it had a real Zoroastrian
affect to it, which, yeah, anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah so yeah, you know, of course Jehovah represented order
and and and rules and sort of this very ascetic
religion most yeah, yeah, and Lucifer was just more you know,
light wisdom but less order, and of course Satan was
(43:07):
just the darkness, the primal darkness and do as thou
wilt kind of thing. And there were actually three factions
within the group around these d three different gods or
aspects of God. And yeah, so the idea to them
was this merging of Satan in Christ. That was a
(43:28):
big part of it to them, which is very much
what you see in Manson Later. Yes, he seemed to
borrow a lot of ideas from them, And.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
But it's really downplayed in most except for Ed Sanders.
It's really downplayed in and and let's let's let's take
a divergent here. Okay, Ed Sanders is it was a
biographer of what was his name of his book, The
Family and the.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
He didn't Yeah, yeah, Ed Saunders did The Family. It's
just called The Family and the Donald Douggies.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Anyway, it's really cracked me up. I love the title
of it. But when it was issued in England and
had stuff about the Processed Church, the Processed Church actually
sued and this book was about Manson, you guys, it
was about Manson, not not they were talking about now,
but it and it made him take the whole chapter
of the the process aspect out of it. Actually we
(44:28):
had to do it in the United States.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
But yeah, no, no, yeah, cause they won in England. Yeah,
that was weird thing. And the United States they settled,
and part of the settlement was you had to take
he had to take the the whole chapter about that
and any reference to.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
The process Processed Church.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The book out of Ed Sanders, of course, was a
huge countercultural figure. He was initially kind of a beat
He's one of those beat nicks that transitioned into the
whole hippie thing. Yeah, he had a band called the
Thugs that were almost kind of an early sort of
proto punk band in a lot of ways. He's a
very influential guy. And he just got he's he's like
(45:05):
Mary Terry, he got he he got obsessed with this
case and all the things attached to it. Say more
Terry and son of Sam. Ed Sanders just really latched
onto this case. He just started making newspaper clippings and
the process came up again and again in his research, and.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, and what's fascinating about it is yet realized that
these guys aren't Christians either. These are not coming from
a Christian worldview or even a any any sort of
any sort of what we would call a theistic type
worldview in that sense. And uh, you know, a lot
like the Church of Satan.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
It was.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
It was more principles and ideas than it was a
deity so to speak, which we'll get into another guy
named Michael Aquino later who actually took it and made
it more deified type type thing. But the processed Church
they left scientology because in this just shows the Hubris,
(46:01):
because I think they didn't think that Hubbard was basically
the the the the quote was they were making little
Ron Hubbard l Ron Hubbard's and they saw a quote
so much more potential with the e reader and stuff
like that. So they started what was the name of
the consciousness before it became the process? It was? It
(46:23):
was it was named consciousness. I should I should have
wrote this down. It's super important consciousness awareness movement. Does
that sound right? We can edit this out. No, you
know what I'm talking about though.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Right, Yeah, they did have a different name to start
out with.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, I mean they started out I mean not satanic
and full blown you know, occultic. No, I wish I
need to know the name of it. Let me, well,
you could add this.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Out to compulsions analysis.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Compulsions analysis, Okay, let me let me so. They they
had they started out with compulsions analysis and and and
obviously from what I've read and research, they were really
quite good with this. Of course, Robert the Grimston was
the head supposedly, which we'll get into later. It was
(47:17):
you know, a figure head of it. Uh, but you know,
and and it just gradually evolved as most of these
type movements do, with.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
A head with a sock underneath it with a hand
and that sock basically.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, a puppet exact demondo. Yeah, he nailed it. And
so yeah, and what's what's so interesting about it is
is there theology. It's really it's really crazy. You look
at it, and particularly us come up from a Christian perspective,
Christian worldview, you look at it, and even from a
secular world you're like, that's insane. I mean, Setan and
God working together to to to bring the end of
(47:56):
the world. You know, they're going to be reconciled. And
and you know, I'm mean just I mean, and I'm
not even getting it alright, you guys, because I'm not,
you know, a process expert. We're going to have one
of those on here.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
But but it all came back to the whole balance thing,
which which that's why where I got the Zoroastrian thing,
is that yin yang is the balance of the two
good good and evil type thing.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
And then well they even they even couch it in
terms of reconciliation of these two opposing forces. Yes, a
big part of it.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yes, you know, which sounds a lot like Mormonism. You
know where we're Jesus and and and Satan are our
brothers pretty much correct? Yeah, and and and so yeah,
all these all these cult systems have these threads that
are all similar that run through, which makes you begin
to think that maybe it is releasing some of how
(48:53):
the dark forces work or the sister forces work in
in our world. And it's it's it's not the whole truth,
but there's there's there's webs of truth and all these
different cults and these different uh different things, and we
it's important for us to know that because uh, that's
how we combat that. And that's that's one of the
(49:15):
reasons why we're doing this podcast is to you know,
you know your enemy and you know how your enemy
works and uh and so but yeah, they you know,
Lindsay just got into the alleged tize to the Manson
family the Process Church. He was, Uh, why don't you,
Lindsay talk a little bit, because I mean you you're
like to me, uh, you're not I wouldn't say a
Manson authority, but you know, Manson really will a lot
(49:38):
better than I do. As far as his background, you've
read a lot, I mean a lot, so talk about
his whole journey with with prison and then his enlightenment
and Process and scientology and all that. Can you can
you get.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Knowing that well, like a lot of the process, the
process cult and a lot of Process associate people. He
started with scientology too while he was in prison. Yeah,
and more than one person himself included claim that he
reached THETA clear status. That's where you get all those
(50:10):
thetas out of you or whatever. I forget exactly how
that works, but yeah, he uh, he just you know,
to have not have much to do with the process
like some what have you believe he just happened to
when he got out of jail. Just be so many places.
You know. He was in San Francisco around the same
(50:30):
time they were. He was in La around the same
time they were. He sent people to England who went
and stayed with the Process as well as some of
the as well as staying with at some sort of
Scientology headquarters there for a while. Bruce Davis was one
(50:51):
of them that he sent there and uh to find
the interview, he did an interview where he basically said
he he sent people over there, and he was also
getting bikers to do stuff for him in England. And
of course the Process also was very much involved with
the darker sort of I guess they what do they
(51:12):
call him, one percenters biker community, the criminal biker community,
many of whom were.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Very much yeah, the Rolling Stones. I mean they had
him do a concert for them, security for a concert.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, the Process was doing the same sort of thing.
They wanted to hook up with the biker community and
use them as part of their network. Well, Manson did
the same thing. He had several bikers that lived more
or less defected to him, but he also used them,
you know, he was involved in some of their drug
running and yeah, so and he just used similar language
(51:49):
to them, this idea of he himself being the sort
of joining of Christ and Satan, and you know, at
one point he was wearing black capes, using a lot
of similar There was a Process group related Shadowy, very
little known about them, that had a group called the
(52:12):
Grand Chinon.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
At various points manson family members were referring to him
as Big Chinon or something like that. So, yeah, it's
just you know, the Process visited him in prison after
he got arrested for the Tate LaBianca murders, and after
(52:36):
they visited him, he stopped talking about them for the
most part.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And yeah, not coincidence, huh. In our business, there's not
many coincidents.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
He knew a guy what was the guy's name? I
need my Sanders book here. He was a leather worker
in California. Text Watson at one time was also doing
leather work, so that was part of the connection. He
made a lot of the buckskins for the hippies and
people in that area. Was a member of the process,
(53:06):
and he definitely would have known him.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
So, yeah, there's just so many weird you can't place
them in the same building. But they had to have
been situations with with Manson in the process, and later
he made weird remarks like yeah, I am de Grimston
when asked about him, you know, And yeah, he he
likes to be esoteric or appear esoteric at least, so
(53:31):
no tell him what exactly he meant by that. But
but yeah, he borrowed, He borrowed heavily from the process.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, well, you know, it makes me we We've done
a podcast about the family, The Family Family of God,
and I wonder if there's any connection there with some
somewhere you know in there, And that's just me speculating.
We hadn't gone down that road or whatever. But as
you see, as we go further into this, this whole process,
there's a lot of connections to a lot of people
(53:59):
that you wouldn't think. We're connected to process which the
scientologists wouldn't like this ultimately connected back to them, not
necessarily institutionally, but doctrinally or methodology. How you said, there, Mo,
how about that that's been ready to put it? And
when we did on Laurel Canyon stuff, there was a
(54:21):
guy that we relied on his book pretty heavy, but
we did a lot of other stuff too. I mean,
you guys, you gotta realize when we do research, we
don't just read one book and watch some YouTube videos.
We get into it. There's a lot of people out there,
meaning Ed Sanders has a whole plethora of documents that
weren't in his book that are accessed out there by
(54:41):
a podcaster that we're not going to talk about right now,
but that go into a lot of this stuff that
Ed Sanders wasn't able to really put out there because
of his gag order from the process, lindsay, I think
we need to stop here, all right, y'all, that's just
the beginning. We've laid out the basics. We've scratched the
(55:04):
surface of the Birkwood story and it's already looking like
this rabbit hole goes a whole lot deeper than we've
been told. But here's the thing. Next episode, we're diving
straight into the cult network, secret gatherings and yonkers. Those
are our rituals at Unermer Park and connections that reach
from coast to coast. It's not just conspiracy talk. We've
(55:25):
got names, places and patterns that'll make you rethink everything.
So make sure you're subscribed, Tell a friend, and come
back next time. As we follow the trail into the shadows,
the Sons of Sam's story is just getting started. Thanks
(55:47):
for listening and supporting us, and remember stay naturally.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
Supernatural st.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
St st ST ST ST ST Stremes s
So yeah, there's just so many weird you can't place
them in the same building, but they had to have
been situation.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you for joining me on the Unrefined Podcast. I'm
your host Brandon Spain along with Lindsay Waters, where each
week we delve into the mysteries that shape our world,
from the tangible to the supernatural, with the foundation rooted
in biblical truth. For more content and exclusive resources, visit
us at Unrefined podcast dot com. Now let's dive into
(00:48):
this week's episode. Hey, hey, hey, y'all, we've got something
wild for you today. Lindsay and I have been doing
some research and we're about to unravel a case that's dark,
way more twisted than the headlines ever told you. The
so called Son of Sam murders. Now, you probably heard
the basic version lone gunman, talking demon dog, case closed.
(01:12):
But what if that's not even close to the truth.
What if David Burkwitz wasn't the only one pulling the trigger.
We're even calling the shots in this first part of
a multi episode series. We're going to pull at the threads.
Maury Terry followed cults, coded letters, manson connections, satanic rituals,
and a possible coast to coast network of evil hiding
(01:33):
in plain sight. This is going to be the beginning
of a fun deep dive. We kind of just got
interested in this case, and Lindsay's always kind of been
interested in the whole Manson the family, that kind of stuff,
and this kind of led us to a trail that
led us to the Sons of Sam is what we're
(01:54):
going to call it. It's like a network type situation
which we're going to get into. So everything we know
about the Son of Sam case that actually in a
lot of ways still open, right Lindsay, It's a closed
case on paper, but if people are still investigating this,
aren't they? And that you're understanding there was this new
Netflix show which the new book has a thing on
(02:18):
there about the Netflix show and which is really interesting.
We'll get into that probably in a few minutes about
our perception of that what if David Burkwitz wasn't the
only killer in the whole Son of Sam ordeal? So
to go into that, you know, we're going to have
to kind of lay lay the foundation and and and
(02:40):
just look at the different perspectives of this that David
Burkwoods didn't act alone that he wasn't just spoken to
by a dog and told to do this, which we'll
get into. What we've been diving into is that basically
that there's a real, very high probability I would say, Lindsay,
that that this is connected to a secretive cult with
(03:02):
Charles Manson, satanic rituals, and even other serial killers. The
more we've dove into this, a new one came up
on my radar a few weeks ago, the Zodiac killer
possibility a tie with it. And even in this book
of Mary Terry's, somebody alluded to some connections to the
Hillside stranglers and it begins to make you wonder how
(03:25):
many crimes have been committed that and he talks about
that Mary Terry, which we'll get into in his book,
a crime that occurred before the Sons of Sam that
they think was connected to this, but they didn't have
the framework yet, the forty four caliber killings hadn't started
happening yet for them to piece it to it. So basically,
(03:46):
today Lindsay and I are we're going to be taking
a deep dive into Mary Terry's book and just other
stuff that we've done research on, some stuff from Ed
Sanders just to begin this journey into the Sons of Sam. So, Lindsay,
(04:07):
just give us a basic overview of the general case,
what's known and all that out there.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
No, starting summer of nineteen seventy six, New York had
a rash of shootings, usually women. I was kind of
summer disco was kind of a thing, and you also
had punk rock, and I had to mention that and yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, punk rock.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
These the shootings were all connected. They were all kind
of young women. And you know, if there was a
man there, he would usually get it to but it
seemed to have been targeting women.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
The first one was in July seventy six. It was
in the Pelham Bay area of the Bronx. It was
Jody Valenti and Donna Lauria and we're just sitting in
a car. A man approached and fired three bullets. Aria
was killed instantly. Valenti got in the thigh. She survived.
She described her attacker as a white male in his thirties,
(05:04):
approximately five eight, two hundred pounds, short, dark curly hair.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And now listen to this, you guys. This is important.
Lindsay's describing these guys because it's going to become something's
going to become quite apparent as he continues to describe
these these guys, you keep going.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Bro October twenty third of seventy six, two more people,
Carl de Naro, aged twenty, and Rosemary Keenan, were shot
in the Flushing Queen's area. Both survived. Denaro was struck
in the head by one of the bullets. Police would
later speculated Naro may have been mistaken for a woman
(05:41):
due to his long hair. November twenty seventh, nineteen seventy six,
a couple is attacked by a man in military fatigues,
Donna Demassi sixteen and Joanne Lomino eighteen.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Now, was there a was there a type Lindsey that
these this killer seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I forget it seemed like I know there was a
hair color because women started dyeing their hair red.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That ye yeah different, Well read.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, I want to say it may have been blonde
to begin with.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, you guys, there's a lot of a lot of this,
So we have to reference this because there's so many
details that it's impossible to remember. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So January thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven, Christine Freud and her fiance,
John Deal, were shot as they sat in Flushing, Queens,
so we're still mostly in Queens. Deal had minor injuries.
Freud was shot twice and later died in the hospital.
There appeared to be no motive as far as they
(06:51):
could tell at this point.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah. Have they connected these yet?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean, I think just so far it's just the
forty four caliber bullets.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah. Yeah, so he was dubbed the forty four caliber killer.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And in the assailant appears to be attacking young women
with long, dark hair.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
At the time, police said they were looking for multiple suspects.
So see so January thirtieth, they're looking for multiple.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Suspects, multiple y'all keep that inm on now, this is important. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
March eighth, seventy seven, college student named Virginia Volksian was
shot and same neighborhood re Freund was shot and the
head died instantly, With local newspapers and daily news, New
York Poops now reporting on the shootings on a daily basis,
was revealed at press conferences two days after vul Scherkian's
(07:45):
murder that police strongly suspected the same forty four bulldog
revolver had been used in the.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Attacks, which is not a very common pistol to use
for this type of thing, right, Yeah, it's rather uncommon, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So April seventeenth, nineteen seventy seven, the killer announces his identity.
In the early hours of the morning Valentina Suriani eighteen
and her boyfriend Alexander Esau, twenty, they were sitting in
Sirianni's car in the Bronx when they were shot twice.
Esau died at the scene. Sirianni died later in the hospital.
(08:22):
For the first time, the killer announced his identity via
a handwritten note left for the police at the crime scene,
which he referred to himself as son of Sam and
promised killings would continue. May thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven. Columnists,
This is the famous Breslen letter.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, who's Breslin?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He was a He was a columnist for the Daily
News of Jimmy Breslin. He Yeah, this was the famous
Hello from the Gutter, I believe, Yeah, yeah, which was
an interesting letter. We'll talk about it later. June twenty,
sixth seventy seven, a couple of attacked outside of a club.
(09:04):
Judy Placido and sal Lupo were shot while sitting in
Lupo's park car. Both survived injuries, with Lupo Reporti reportedly
telling the police he and Placido had been discussing the
son of Sam Killer's only minutes before the attack. July thirtieth,
nineteen seventy seven. The first attack involving a victim with
(09:26):
blonde hair. This was an important one. Yes, Robert Villalenti
and Stacey Moskowitz were shot in Valenti's car while on
their first date. Valenti would lose his left eye. Moscow
Wits would die eighteen hours after the attack. Again, this
is the first one with blonde hair. Days later, a
nine witness would come forward. I believe that's claiming to
(09:47):
have seen the man with man with what looked like
a gun minutes before the Brooklyn shooting and other police
officers were riding parking tickets in the same night. Yeah,
so we had one of those. Was definitely Burkelewitz he
ticketed that night.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, he was there, he was there.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Stacey Mosquitz, when you guys is super important. I never
we'll forget.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
We watched footage on the Netflix stuff and then in
other places of her mother. Her mother was just uh
just distraught. It showed I don't know how they got
away with this in the media at the time in
the seventies, showing her and you know, just she was.
She was beaten on that I remember was a police
officer or or her husband. She was so angry and
mad and that that just that just stuck in my
(10:35):
heart seeing that mother, you know, feeling that way, and
and she developed a hatred for for burke Witz. But uh,
the interesting thing is it flipped later and she became
an advocate, not not you know, she she knew he
was a criminal, but but she became an advocate for
another theory, which we'll get to later on.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So so yeah, in August tenth, seventy seven, David Berkowitz,
I mean we've all probably heard of him before. It
was h of Yunkers is finally arrested. He had been
investigated for a while. Police found his car and discovered
a rifle in the back seat, maps of the crime
(11:17):
seams and ammunition. They waited until he left his apartment
and arrested him. I said something about like what took
you so long?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Well, and that that eerie smile. Yeah, you'll never forget
all the marchers. The smirk. Yeah, when he's when he's
been brought in, that that that smirk, that smirky smile,
you know, like, uh, but you know, even even right
right then, there was a lot of just really suss things,
which we'll get into the mosque Moskowitz killing and how
(11:48):
it all came out. We'll have to detail that probably
later on because it's kind of complicated. But yeah, and
uh and so what did what did Burke would say?
I mean, what was his story? You know when they arrested.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Him initially he just kind of confessed to all of them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, but his his emma was when he was trying
to maybe make himself seem insane that he was here.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I mean obviously. Yeah, the dog, he claimed, a
dog of his neighbor was giving him messages in his
head and telling him to go kill these people.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And yeah dog named Sam.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, dog named Sam, which is important.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So yeah, case closed basically.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, exactly exactly. Yeah, that's what we need to do.
I want to focus on this and if there's any
law enforcement out there. I'm not meaning to be smirch
you or anything like that, but in this case, the police,
and I'm setting this up a little bit, they really
got tunnel vision once he came forward, lone gunman, deal done,
like you said, case closed, yea. And so that causes
(12:58):
policeman to not really look into any other areas or
avenues or other cases, or even look before these cases
to see if there's any similarities or anything like that too.
And so yeah, that's just the narrative that came out
when he was arrested and was put out there. But remember,
you guys, like Lindsay said earlier, they at first believed
(13:21):
multiple suspects because why.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Well, for one, the different descriptions were were vastly different.
If you just look at the composite sketches from that time,
I mean, you've got curly hair, straight hair, longer hair,
short hair hair, skinny guy, heavy set guy. I mean, yeah,
different noses, and to be fair, yeah, we all know
(13:45):
composite sketches and eyewitness accounts aren't super accurate all the time,
but these were just very vastly different.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Also, night and day different.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I mean Tommy Zano, one of the guys who
was a witness at the Moskowitz, he described a guy
he saw the guy walk up and shoot into the car. Yeah,
he described a guy who was kind of slender and
had longer hair.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And blonde like kind of parted down the middle.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I think, yeah, yeah, possibly wearing a wig, but definitely
not burkle Witz has been. In fact, the first time
he saw Burkewitz. Uh and Yeah, Unsolved Mysteries episode, Season one,
episode six and seven did a great segment on the
well couple segments. They did two parter back in the
(14:36):
late eighties, and they actually had Maury Terry on and
they went into some of the mine not North Dakota
stuff We're going to go in later. But yeah, yeah,
he said when he first saw burkele Witz, He's like,
there's no way that guy got that fat. That was
his own word, that got that fat that quick? I
mean he was a he would you know he was
a stocky guy.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, short stocky.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, a short, stocky guy. And this guy was clearly
a skinny guy with much different hair.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So yeah, hey, what episode was that where the people
can maybe go back and listen to it. I'm gonna
put it in the show notes, but it was season
one episode.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Season one, episode six and seven. It's the first segment
on episode six. It's like segment two or three on
episode seven. But yeah, that's on free on several streaming platforms.
Yeah yeah, so you yeah for sure, Prime for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah. So wow. So here we have the case and
and and here enters, uh politics, which we'll get into later,
goes deeper than politics. I mean, politics are involved, but
at the initial here we have a mayor that is
(15:44):
desperately fighting for his political career to stay a mayor.
And we know how I mean, let's just face it,
politicians are you know they He wanted this case closed,
he wanted dealt with, and he wanted to take the win.
You know, he wanted to take the w n his side.
And and so let's push it through. This is it.
(16:05):
And uh, there was a lot of interesting police type
I mean, we might as well go in references. Netflix
did an entire documentary on this which we watched, but
definitely had an angle and we haven't figured it out yet.
Definitely had an angle. It was based on MARII Tery's book. However,
(16:26):
when you read the book and watch the Netflix you're like,
what these are? This is the same story. And Lindsay
had watched it first and he told me about it,
and I was like, nah, I can't differ that much.
But I read a complete book and it's just so
much to it that was left out, which was really interesting.
So and we'll dive more into that and in this
(16:47):
episode and episodes to come, and we have a guest
that's coming on, it's really going to go into the
whole cult aspect of it. So, uh, Burkwit's is in there.
And there was this big uh controversy that that muddy
muddy the waters and I wonder if it was intentional
of some people got a guard to take some pictures
(17:08):
of him sleeping in his cell, and that was a
big scandal. And I think the guy that got it
he went to jail, didn't he, lindsay, the guy that
not not the guy that took the pictures, but the
guy that that paid the guard off.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
The Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
He went to jail for that, which I don't know
what kind of crime that is came out on I
think it was a New York Post cover of him
asleep in his cell, which is you know that that
means there was an inside man and taking pictures and
observing him and stuff. Anyway, that that just muddied the
waters and made things even more confusing. Let's kind of
(17:48):
jump into Mary Terry's life now and how he enters
this and and kind of let's go at it from
his perspectively.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's interesting to me he lived in yonk or Is
at one time.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, Mari, Maury did, yeah, right near like I think may.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Have even sort of known the cars that even who
we're going to get more into later. Sorry, jumping the
gun there, but yeah, no you're not.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You're not really jumping the gun because that's where they
rested him at was in Yonkers. He had a parking
ticket and they and they went up to his car
and he said, look, you got me. Yeah, I'm the
son of you know, I'm the son of Sam. I'm
not don't quote me exactly for that, but I mean
it was just no coercion, no nothing. He just spilled
the beans. Which is really interesting. But Yonkers was a
(18:40):
part of of all this. And and Maury Terry, I think,
I really do think that, you know, he was interested
in this kind of stuff because he was working at IBM,
and he was born with his job, and but I
think what really pulled him into this was the fact
that he lived in Yonkers, super closed like blocks from
where where uh on that apartment complex that Berkwitz lived in.
(19:04):
So he got pulled into it, and man did he
get pulled into it? You know, part of me when
I was reading this book it, I really had a
lot of empathy for him because I know with my ADHD,
I know how I can get sucked into a focus
on something and you just go down this rabbit hole,
and you go down a rabbit hole and if you
(19:25):
don't have I mean, this is good for you podcasters
out there that listen to us and other people that
are interested in all this this kind of stuff. You know,
you've got to have safety measures in place where you
don't go down the rabbit holes and don't get out.
And Mary Terry is a lesson for that. And I think,
I think that's why our relationship with Christ and having
(19:46):
other interests in hobbies and all it all comes in
handy to keep us from getting sucked in to evil,
you know, the ultimate evil. So anyway, that's sidebar, but
I just think that's an important thing to realize, you know,
because we're interested in the stuff. We don't like the crimes,
but we're interested in stuff and finding out deeper things,
(20:07):
but we need to be have some preventatives in our
lives to keep us from going deep. So so Maury
was reeled in, and you know, he started seeing cracks
in the story. I guess is a better way to
put it. So what are some of the things, lindsay
you think that that we're the big things that really
stuck out to Maury?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Well, we already talked about the different descriptions of the assailant. Yeah,
that's huge, and the handwriting of the different letters, the
handwriting of the Breslen letter, and just the style and
sophistication of it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, the codes, right, yeah, it appeared. And I don't
want to insult Birkwood's because I mean, he's a Christian
now and and I you know, I'm for him. I'm
glad he's he's a brother in the Lord. But supposedly
i'll throw that in. I don't want it, but but
I'm I'm gonna believe the best. But but he didn't
(21:04):
have to me the intelligence level to do some of this,
some of these codes that were in these letters that
came out. I know he did do some of them,
but I just don't see him as the mastermind. And
it's it's quite apparent when those letters start coming out
that it seemed like he was less than the master fund.
What do you think about that, Lindsey?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Do you? Yeah? The the letter dropped at one of
the crime scene and the Breslan letter were just very different.
And I mean the handwriting, yes, different according to a
handwriting expert expert, yeah, yeah, and so yeah, just things
like that. And then Terry, you know, slowly but surely
(21:44):
started seeing these weird connections with this shadowy group that
was supposedly meeting at Ontermeyer Park and yeah, and the
uh and Yonkers and and stories about dog sacrifices and.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well they were finding a lot of German shepherd, yeah, German.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Shepherd uh that had been killed and things like that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, and there was even a supposed eyewitness, which which
Birkwitz later on came and said that it wasn't him,
but there was an eyewitness. And we don't know the
truth with this that that that he tried. Did he
try to get a job with a animal shelter, yes, yes,
and uh yeah and and uh so he was I
(22:33):
think he was denied the job. I think it was
kind of sus that people were kind of suss with him.
But you know, just an avenue to be able to
get the the animals. And if you if you're remotely
familiar with with satanic type stuff and rituals and all
that kind of stuff usually starts with animals. Uh just
has to do with that that sociopath psychopathic type mindset. Uh,
(22:54):
it starts with animals for animal sacrifice. And apparently this
group and undermine our bark, we're we're sacrificing animals. And Uh.
The interesting thing about this is it is Morty started
making connections of where these uh, these areas where they
(23:17):
were doing the stuff were in the gutters. And so
I don't know if that's a good time to talk
about that, but that but you know, they they went
in there and there was obviously, uh, satanic graffiti. You know,
which kids do We did it. I mean I had to,
I hate to admit it. Before I was saved, when
I was a teenager, I used to put pentagrams on
stuff and and we we did. We did a big
(23:41):
iron maiden eddie, We go on a building one time.
We did this whole if you're familiar with that, we
did Eddie from Iron Maiden. So so just because there's scientistic,
there's there's satanic graffiti, doesn't mean it's a cult or
anything more than kids. However, in this situation, Uh, correct
me if I'm wrong. Let's see, I think they found
animal carcasses. I mean in the gutters, did they find
(24:05):
or was that just at different places around the trail.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
They found him in Mara Park, but yeah, yeah, I
don't know if they found them in the gutters.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, And you know, and and then they found one
with with his ear cut off. Remember that that's gonna
be important later. And but also in under Minor Park,
I think there was a Son of Sam symbol on
the wall in the gutters. There was some sort of
it was something that pushed them beyond just a pentagram
and just beyond kids getting sitting down there drinking beer
(24:36):
and smoking pot and being stupid. And it had a
weird macop feeling as a matter of fact that Maury
Terry talked about in there. He felt really weird when
he was in there. I think his I think his
spiritual discernment went off that something evil was going on there,
and he just didn't have the you know, vernacular to
(24:58):
say that, Uh it was. It was truly a brought
an interesting kink to the case. And then that's when
they started getting the political pushback from certain political officer
police officers. There was one in the Netflix I can't
(25:19):
remember his name, and he was hostile even even still
in the Netflix video, he was hostile towards Mary Terry.
Uh it started I can't remember his name started with
a P. I think anyway, I don't remember his name.
Just check that out. But if you check out the
Netflix video, you guys read the book. Don't don't just
trust the Netflix video.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Uh So the book, and I mean so, first of all,
the newest edition of the book. The guy who did
the the Netflix documentary Sons of Sam, Josh Seeman, he
did the forward for it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah he did.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, it's it's basically it's an advertisement now for his
for that documentary. And he kind of befriended Maury Terry.
They hung out and ate tun whiches and and you know,
he just kind of like, I don't know he It
wasn't till I, you know, I didn't really suspect the
(26:16):
maybe I'm just a fool. The documentary convinced me of
multiple shooters in the process involvement. But I could see
a little bit of kind of discredit Mari Terry in there.
But definitely the forward was like he just says, walks
you up to the edge and then backs off and says,
I mean, what if the conspiracy is there is no
(26:38):
conspiracy and no one's in control kind of thing, which
reminded me of that movie Leave the World Behind or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
The same statement they made there to discredit all conspiracy.
So yeah, just keep that in mind when you watch
the documentary and buy the new edition of the book
that yeah, you know, I don't know Josh Ziemon, but yeah,
it just it was a strange way he well.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And the other thing about it too, is is it
almost makes you start to wonder what his angle was
because obviously a lot of these characters that we're going
to get into, a lot of them may still be alive.
And I'm just gonna do some shade tree theologia, not
theologian to some shade tree investigation here and and and
(27:27):
probably think that a lot of these dark characters are
still in power and doing a lot of the same
things that went on back then. And and I wonder
how far this is still you know, journaling it, particularly
when you when you get to the point when we
get to the point where we connect some other other things,
and then we have another guess that's it's hopefully going
(27:49):
to come on and and she's going to dive deep,
hopefully into the processed Church, which we might as well
kind of go into them. I don't want to go
too deep into them because I want to let her,
you know, really just give a basic outline of all
that kind of stuff. But let's just let's just you know,
talk about that, which which I did. I did forget
(28:11):
uh one other thing with the crack and the story
of Mary Terariot. He had later prison interviews which we'll
get to where he admitted to multiple multiple people being involved,
but he was just scared. And I still to this day,
because we have another podcast and a co host coming on,
which is gonna be more more encouraging type podcast. It's
(28:33):
his journey through Christianity and stuff like that. I still,
in my in my mind think that he's lying. I
don't think he's lying because he's trying to protect. I
think he's lying because he's scared and that some of
these players might still be involved in the world and
(28:53):
can get to him in prison, and uh so I'll
just leave leave that alone. Oh wow, we've we've managed
to establish just the basic thing. Okay. Uh, David Burkwitz
is in jail. They're the policeman. And I'm gonna use
this term because I mean, dude, if you can't see
(29:14):
that that they're trying to railroad him through. Uh, policemen
get that. I mean, it's just apparel, apparel of their job.
They get tunnel vision, and they think they got their guy,
and they begin to not look at anything else that
goes outside. And that's not just policeman, you guys, that's
that's investigative reporters, journalists, podcasters, uh, you know, conspiracy theorists
(29:37):
and all that kind of stuff. And and he got sometimes, yeah,
me sometimes. And we we we've got to We had
a you know, an interview with Doug that that we
released where he keeps an I always say this word wrong.
It's false falsibility, I think, is what it's called falsifiability. Falsifiability,
that's it. And we have to keep that in mind.
(29:58):
If if it's so neat and and and vacuum packed,
that there's no way it couldnot be true, that there's
no holes in it, that it's not probably not true.
And uh, I think that's important when we look at
anything like this, is that we could be wrong and
we need to be able to admit that and and
(30:18):
and walk in that. Uh. Maury Terry went down the
rabbit hole so deep that that he would find you'll
see this in the book. He would find excuses for everything,
which he kind of put that principle of falsifiability on
the side. Not judging him, I just understand how it
is to get sucked into something like this, particularly if
(30:40):
you have ADHD. You just you get sucked into this
this type of stuff. So let's talk about the processed church.
This is this is where Maury started pulling the proverbial
thread of the sweater here. And as he started to
pull with these these cracks in the story to going
(31:01):
beyond just a few kids or a little satanic neighborhood
gang cold that a few of the guys were involved in.
And so let's lindsay, let's talk about the cars. I
think that's a good time to start talking about the cars.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Well, the cars, they were a family that lived in Yonkers.
The patriarch of the car's name was Sam. They lived
close to where Burka Witz lived there.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
They had a dog.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
They had a dog, and interestingly enough, John and Michael
two of the sons. Yeah, John's middle name was Wheat.
They had a sister named Wheat as well. That can
get a little confusing sometimes reading it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Uh and in the Breslen letter, John Wheaty's strangler of
young girls or something like that is mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I think he also went by the nickname wheedis whtys.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, yeah, it be.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Wrong, but yeah. He was in the Air Force and
spend you know, kind of back and forth between the
New York area and my not North Dakota where there's
an Air Force base up there. All right, So John
Carr we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Here, Yeah, John Carr, But I want to interrupt you
one second something I forgot that I think is super important.
You know what I'm about to say. Berkowitz was in
the military as well. Yep, he was during the Korean War.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
No, well, he was stationed in Korea.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
He was stationed in Korea. Yeah, during the Vietnam War.
And uh so you know, we have several and I'm
just going to leave this out there for yall to
use your imagination. We have several government ties in this story,
so yeah, I imagine we'll get to that when we
have our other guest on the on the show.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
But yeah, Michael Carr, the other brother was a younger brother,
younger or older. I want to say Michael was the
older and John was the younger younger. Yeah, Michael was
a scientologist. Just that's important. Did we go into are
we going to from car to the process or yeah? Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,
(33:08):
so yeah, scientology that that's important. After Burka Witz was
arrested and a lot of this happened, John Carr just
takes off and goes back to my not and mysteriously
offs himself.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And if you see the pictures, it's definitely a mysterious
way to off himself there. They're really gory. I'll had
the disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Marlin thirty thirty. The gun fell onto his legs in
a funny way. He seemed to be in good spirits
around the time.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, it just there was a respective six sixty six
on his hand that was there in the blood splatter.
You know, if they had that Chinese guy that was
in the OJ case. I can't remember his name that
was really it's the expert at blood spatter. If they
would have had him there, probably it would have come
out with different But keep in mind, you guys, the
(34:05):
police are trying to that they don't want any more
loose ends. They're they're trying to tie up everything. And
so anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Well, And Michael Carr, his brother died I think less
than a year later in a car accident, really terrible
car accident. So it's just odd that both of them
would die car accident.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
It was very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, burka Witz mentioned them. I
want to say in some of the interviews that they
were a part of of the Untermyer.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Group. Yeah. Group, Yeah, which was you know interesting because
a lot of times in governmental type conspiracies and and
I really think that this was kind of learned from
Masonic type things. Is you compartmentalize people where uh, you know,
(34:58):
and and cartails do this. You compartmentalize people, and therefore
you don't know who the boss is and that but
that person that group doesn't know who the upper is
and who the upper is, and you hear rumors, but
but they compartmentalize and and so this this group was
bigger than just this little group in under our Park.
It was part of a wider network. But but you
(35:23):
know it, it's always very like I said, compartmentalized and
and and and loose. So as Maury continued to investigate
the cars and and all this kind of stuff, what
other what other the kind of things did he find?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Lindsay, well, I mean at some point I can't even
remember exactly how he got on the process, but did
you have something specific in mind there, because I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, no, that's okay, we get that. But now, yeah,
I mean, I'm just trying to lead into the the process,
said saying that out. But uh, yeah, I think it.
I think it Lad from uh the mine.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Not yeah, well yeah and mine not. You know, there
were some weird things. This is in This is in
the Ultimate Eeval. It's also on the The Unsolved Mysteries,
the episode seven, the part of the Yeah Arlen, no, no, no,
I'm just talking about mine not here that she was
(36:24):
from the Bismarck area.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
That's also connected later. But yeah, a guy named Native
American guy who knew uh John Carr named uh Phil Falcon,
Phil Falcon.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Okay, Phil Falcon walked.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
In on John Carr and some guys basically making a
sacrifice of a chicken or an animal in his house.
And yeah, I mean the minor mine not group was was.
I mean, it was kind of this open secret in
the area. Everybody knew that there was kind of the
Satanic cult there.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
The policeman that that that later got involved. It was
really interesting North North Yeah, edit that I was any
the North Dakota Police actually kind of we're we're trying
to work with the uh New York Police. But you know,
(37:23):
you have all the different boroughs and stuff like that. Well,
all the other boroughs except for uh, where were Sanatucci?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Santucci he was in the Bronx. When he in the Bronx, Yeah,
he's the only one that that left this open and
was still looking into us. All the other guys were
like shut and closed, you know. And you begin to
wonder who who issued that order down, you know, perhaps
a mayor that was wanting to, you know, get elected
and and have good favor because I mean a lot
(37:50):
of people don't realize that New York at this time
period was was It was not in good shape. I mean,
it was just and and a lot of uh, I
mean it was it was slummy in a lot of ways.
It's not it's not it's not a well remembered history
of New York during the sixties and seventies. A lot
of it was just the political unrest in our country
(38:13):
and and the racial tensions and and all that kind
of stuff. But uh, yeah, the the the North Dakota
Police of of I wanted to work and they realized
that the only people that were really wanting to work
with them was Morey Terry And yeah, uh one of
the was it was was it one of the guys
that had gotten shot that had he started working with
(38:34):
Malitarry yet one of the I don't think so, okay,
but it was u. But yeah, even in the video
they they have interviews of the Netflix video, they have
interviews of these these these officers that realized, hey, something's
going on here and it's bigger than just a one
man shooter, just just from the ties of John Carr
(38:55):
and even Michael Carr in in my not North Dakota.
And so what what I found interesting, Lindsay is is
as they began to dive into this the Processed Church,
which we'll get to in a second. They had they
had come from England after their little stint down in
South America Ish Caribbean Ish, and they put one in
(39:20):
New York an office. They put one in New Orleans,
and apparently there was one in North Dakota, right was
it it was in Was it in my not or
in Bismark?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
It was?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
It was there.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I mean there were group, there were groups in both
those towns.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
But yeah, there in the Midwest. And then the other one,
which which will connects us to you know, the city
of Angels where we've done a lot of work is
Los Angeles, which we'll get into later. I don't know, lindsay,
we might have to make this a two episode or brother. Yeah,
I mean, we had to scratched the surface here. But
(40:00):
but the Processed Church, let's just let's lay a foundation
for them who they are, what they are, you know,
give them a little background. You've done some diving into
them without without going too much into it where we
let our other guests dive so well.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, I mean I had heard about them years ago,
just casually reading about Manson and they would come up
in different things.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Actually noticed the name. He just said Manson. Interesting, that'll
come back.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Well yeah, well, and you know, I watched a documentary
years ago by Josh Demon called Cropsy that relates to
all this. A guy who worked at a institution mental
institution in uh Staten Island, which connects to all this too,
(40:52):
was accused of kidnapping kids and killing them. And yeah,
there was a there were rumors of a similar group
in Staten Island, so and anyway, yeah, the process Church
of Final Judgment was started in England in the nineteen
sixties by a guy named Robert de Grimston I think
(41:15):
he was born Robert Moore and his wife Marianne to Grimston.
She was like a former stripper and claimed to have
been married to a Sugar Ray Robinson or some one
of some boxer at one point made her way to
England and they started out as Scientologist and just didn't
(41:41):
like that organization and kind of broke away and started
their own group. They kept the E meter initially, things
like that.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And for those of you who don't understand what he's
talking about with Scientology, they it is a self help religion.
I mean it's not a specific deity type religion, but
it is still a religion because it deals with spiritual
things and they use these they audit you to to
change your character and to form you, and they use
(42:10):
these e readers. I just wanted to throw that out there.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah. So, yeah, you know, they kind of broke with
with scientology and started their own group, started gathering young
people around them, and their their sort of theology was
this very strange sort of almost kind of a trinity
of Jehovah, Lucifer, and Satan. Those Lucifer and Satan were
(42:34):
like two different gods.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Very Zoroastrian to me. Yeah, it had a real Zoroastrian
affect to it, which, yeah, anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah so yeah, you know, of course Jehovah represented order
and and and rules and sort of this very ascetic
religion most yeah, yeah, and Lucifer was just more you know,
light wisdom but less order, and of course Satan was
(43:07):
just the darkness, the primal darkness and do as thou
wilt kind of thing. And there were actually three factions
within the group around these d three different gods or
aspects of God. And yeah, so the idea to them
was this merging of Satan in Christ. That was a
(43:28):
big part of it to them, which is very much
what you see in Manson Later. Yes, he seemed to
borrow a lot of ideas from them, And.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
But it's really downplayed in most except for Ed Sanders.
It's really downplayed in and and let's let's let's take
a divergent here. Okay, Ed Sanders is it was a
biographer of what was his name of his book, The
Family and the.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
He didn't Yeah, yeah, Ed Saunders did The Family. It's
just called The Family and the Donald Douggies.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Anyway, it's really cracked me up. I love the title
of it. But when it was issued in England and
had stuff about the Processed Church, the Processed Church actually
sued and this book was about Manson, you guys, it
was about Manson, not not they were talking about now,
but it and it made him take the whole chapter
of the the process aspect out of it. Actually we
(44:28):
had to do it in the United States.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
But yeah, no, no, yeah, cause they won in England. Yeah,
that was weird thing. And the United States they settled,
and part of the settlement was you had to take
he had to take the the whole chapter about that
and any reference to.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
The process Processed Church.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The book out of Ed Sanders, of course, was a
huge countercultural figure. He was initially kind of a beat
He's one of those beat nicks that transitioned into the
whole hippie thing. Yeah, he had a band called the
Thugs that were almost kind of an early sort of
proto punk band in a lot of ways. He's a
very influential guy. And he just got he's he's like
(45:05):
Mary Terry, he got he he got obsessed with this
case and all the things attached to it. Say more
Terry and son of Sam. Ed Sanders just really latched
onto this case. He just started making newspaper clippings and
the process came up again and again in his research, and.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, and what's fascinating about it is yet realized that
these guys aren't Christians either. These are not coming from
a Christian worldview or even a any any sort of
any sort of what we would call a theistic type
worldview in that sense. And uh, you know, a lot
like the Church of Satan.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
It was.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
It was more principles and ideas than it was a
deity so to speak, which we'll get into another guy
named Michael Aquino later who actually took it and made
it more deified type type thing. But the processed Church
they left scientology because in this just shows the Hubris,
(46:01):
because I think they didn't think that Hubbard was basically
the the the the quote was they were making little
Ron Hubbard l Ron Hubbard's and they saw a quote
so much more potential with the e reader and stuff
like that. So they started what was the name of
the consciousness before it became the process? It was? It
(46:23):
was it was named consciousness. I should I should have
wrote this down. It's super important consciousness awareness movement. Does
that sound right? We can edit this out. No, you
know what I'm talking about though.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Right, Yeah, they did have a different name to start
out with.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, I mean they started out I mean not satanic
and full blown you know, occultic. No, I wish I
need to know the name of it. Let me, well,
you could add this.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Out to compulsions analysis.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Compulsions analysis, Okay, let me let me so. They they
had they started out with compulsions analysis and and and
obviously from what I've read and research, they were really
quite good with this. Of course, Robert the Grimston was
the head supposedly, which we'll get into later. It was
(47:17):
you know, a figure head of it. Uh, but you know,
and and it just gradually evolved as most of these
type movements do, with.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
A head with a sock underneath it with a hand
and that sock basically.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, a puppet exact demondo. Yeah, he nailed it. And
so yeah, and what's what's so interesting about it is
is there theology. It's really it's really crazy. You look
at it, and particularly us come up from a Christian perspective,
Christian worldview, you look at it, and even from a
secular world you're like, that's insane. I mean, Setan and
God working together to to to bring the end of
(47:56):
the world. You know, they're going to be reconciled. And
and you know, I'm mean just I mean, and I'm
not even getting it alright, you guys, because I'm not,
you know, a process expert. We're going to have one
of those on here.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
But but it all came back to the whole balance thing,
which which that's why where I got the Zoroastrian thing,
is that yin yang is the balance of the two
good good and evil type thing.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
And then well they even they even couch it in
terms of reconciliation of these two opposing forces. Yes, a
big part of it.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yes, you know, which sounds a lot like Mormonism. You
know where we're Jesus and and and Satan are our
brothers pretty much correct? Yeah, and and and so yeah,
all these all these cult systems have these threads that
are all similar that run through, which makes you begin
to think that maybe it is releasing some of how
(48:53):
the dark forces work or the sister forces work in
in our world. And it's it's it's not the whole truth,
but there's there's there's webs of truth and all these
different cults and these different uh different things, and we
it's important for us to know that because uh, that's
how we combat that. And that's that's one of the
(49:15):
reasons why we're doing this podcast is to you know,
you know your enemy and you know how your enemy
works and uh and so but yeah, they you know,
Lindsay just got into the alleged tize to the Manson
family the Process Church. He was, Uh, why don't you,
Lindsay talk a little bit, because I mean you you're
like to me, uh, you're not I wouldn't say a
Manson authority, but you know, Manson really will a lot
(49:38):
better than I do. As far as his background, you've
read a lot, I mean a lot, so talk about
his whole journey with with prison and then his enlightenment
and Process and scientology and all that. Can you can
you get.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Knowing that well, like a lot of the process, the
process cult and a lot of Process associate people. He
started with scientology too while he was in prison. Yeah,
and more than one person himself included claim that he
reached THETA clear status. That's where you get all those
(50:10):
thetas out of you or whatever. I forget exactly how
that works, but yeah, he uh, he just you know,
to have not have much to do with the process
like some what have you believe he just happened to
when he got out of jail. Just be so many places.
You know. He was in San Francisco around the same
(50:30):
time they were. He was in La around the same
time they were. He sent people to England who went
and stayed with the Process as well as some of
the as well as staying with at some sort of
Scientology headquarters there for a while. Bruce Davis was one
(50:51):
of them that he sent there and uh to find
the interview, he did an interview where he basically said
he he sent people over there, and he was also
getting bikers to do stuff for him in England. And
of course the Process also was very much involved with
the darker sort of I guess they what do they
(51:12):
call him, one percenters biker community, the criminal biker community,
many of whom were.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Very much yeah, the Rolling Stones. I mean they had
him do a concert for them, security for a concert.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, the Process was doing the same sort of thing.
They wanted to hook up with the biker community and
use them as part of their network. Well, Manson did
the same thing. He had several bikers that lived more
or less defected to him, but he also used them,
you know, he was involved in some of their drug
running and yeah, so and he just used similar language
(51:49):
to them, this idea of he himself being the sort
of joining of Christ and Satan, and you know, at
one point he was wearing black capes, using a lot
of similar There was a Process group related Shadowy, very
little known about them, that had a group called the
(52:12):
Grand Chinon.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
At various points manson family members were referring to him
as Big Chinon or something like that. So, yeah, it's
just you know, the Process visited him in prison after
he got arrested for the Tate LaBianca murders, and after
(52:36):
they visited him, he stopped talking about them for the
most part.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And yeah, not coincidence, huh. In our business, there's not
many coincidents.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
He knew a guy what was the guy's name? I
need my Sanders book here. He was a leather worker
in California. Text Watson at one time was also doing
leather work, so that was part of the connection. He
made a lot of the buckskins for the hippies and
people in that area. Was a member of the process,
(53:06):
and he definitely would have known him.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
So, yeah, there's just so many weird you can't place
them in the same building. But they had to have
been situations with with Manson in the process, and later
he made weird remarks like yeah, I am de Grimston
when asked about him, you know, And yeah, he he
likes to be esoteric or appear esoteric at least, so
(53:31):
no tell him what exactly he meant by that. But
but yeah, he borrowed, He borrowed heavily from the process.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, well, you know, it makes me we We've done
a podcast about the family, The Family Family of God,
and I wonder if there's any connection there with some
somewhere you know in there, And that's just me speculating.
We hadn't gone down that road or whatever. But as
you see, as we go further into this, this whole process,
there's a lot of connections to a lot of people
(53:59):
that you wouldn't think. We're connected to process which the
scientologists wouldn't like this ultimately connected back to them, not
necessarily institutionally, but doctrinally or methodology. How you said, there, Mo,
how about that that's been ready to put it? And
when we did on Laurel Canyon stuff, there was a
(54:21):
guy that we relied on his book pretty heavy, but
we did a lot of other stuff too. I mean,
you guys, you gotta realize when we do research, we
don't just read one book and watch some YouTube videos.
We get into it. There's a lot of people out there,
meaning Ed Sanders has a whole plethora of documents that
weren't in his book that are accessed out there by
(54:41):
a podcaster that we're not going to talk about right now,
but that go into a lot of this stuff that
Ed Sanders wasn't able to really put out there because
of his gag order from the process, lindsay, I think
we need to stop here, all right, y'all, that's just
the beginning. We've laid out the basics. We've scratched the
(55:04):
surface of the Birkwood story and it's already looking like
this rabbit hole goes a whole lot deeper than we've
been told. But here's the thing. Next episode, we're diving
straight into the cult network, secret gatherings and yonkers. Those
are our rituals at Unermer Park and connections that reach
from coast to coast. It's not just conspiracy talk. We've
(55:25):
got names, places and patterns that'll make you rethink everything.
So make sure you're subscribed, Tell a friend, and come
back next time. As we follow the trail into the shadows,
the Sons of Sam's story is just getting started. Thanks
(55:47):
for listening and supporting us, and remember stay naturally.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
Supernatural st.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
St st ST ST ST ST Stremes s
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