Something Deeper This Way Comes: Coast to Cult (Part 2) - Unrefined Podcast

Things get dark in this part two of the Son of Sam series. Brandon and Lindsy crack open the ritualistic layers surrounding the Berkowitz case and Maury Terry’s explosive claims. From the eerie murder of Arlis Perry to the strange deaths of the Carr brothers, the duo follows a sinister trail that points to organized cult activity—possibly reaching into military bases, MKUltra, and even serial killer networks. With threads leading to the Process Church, Manson, Zodiac, and the CIA, this isn’t just a crime story—it’s a tangled web of mind control, spiritual warfare, and hidden agendas. And yes, they go full conspiracy mode, all while keeping it rooted in truth.

https://unrefinedpodcast.com

00:08:00 Cult tactics and MKUltra
00:54:00 Intro to part two and recap
01:56:00 Fear, lies, and Berkowitz’s silence
03:30:00 Arlis Perry’s ritualistic murder
06:32:00 Satanic panic as smokescreen
08:49:00 Who were the Carr brothers?
11:07:00 The Breslin letter and multiple shooters
13:24:00 Was Arlis’s murder covered up?
15:46:00 More strange connections and police pressure
18:08:00 Occam’s Razor fails in conspiracies
20:33:00 Untermyer Park and Devil’s Cave
22:51:00 Animal sacrifice, Nazi ideology, and Chile
25:16:00 Global trail of cult killings
27:39:00 Process Church theology
29:54:00 Jesus and Satan reconciled?
32:19:00 Controlled opposition and sleeper cells
34:37:00 Animal sanctuaries with occult ties
36:36:00 Human sacrifice in modern disguise
38:57:00 CIA, law enforcement, and the occult
41:18:00 Cults as intelligence experiments
43:42:00 Casinos, sensory deprivation, and dark psychology
45:58:00 Principalities at work
48:20:00 Serial killer networks and the Zodiac
50:37:00 Are serial killers actually organized?
52:04:00 Mentors, handlers, and network cleanups
54:34:00 Media distractions and erosion of trust
56:49:00 Process Church still active?
59:12:00 Was Maury Terry taken down strategically?
01:01:40 Outro and reminder of Jesus as the answer

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
The cults used everything mk ultra, these drugs used hypnosis,
they used traumatic type things. Thank you for joining me

(00:29):
on the Unrefined Podcast. I'm your host Brandon Spain along
with Lindsay Waters, where each week we delve into the
mysteries that shape our world, from the tangible to the supernatural,
with the foundation rooted in Biblical truth. For more content
and exclusive resources, visit us at Unrefined podcast dot com.
Now let's dive into this week's episode. Hey hey, hey, y'all.

(00:56):
Brandon here back with Lindsay for part two of our
Sons of Sam siries. Last episode we lay the groundwork,
the basics of the Birkwoods case, the official narrative, and
how the NYPD wrapped it up with a neat little
bow one crazy guy, one forty four caliber revolver. Case closed.

(01:16):
But if you were paying attention, you already know it
doesn't simply add up. We barely scratch the surface last time,
so today we're picking up where we left off and
going way deeper. This is where Maury Terry steps in.
He wasn't just curious. He had lived in the same
neighborhood Birkwoods did, and the more he dug the more
he uncovered something bigger, darker organized. What if there was

(01:40):
a cult with ranks, rituals, multiple shooters, and a web
that stretched from coast to coast. That's what we're getting
into today. So what made Mariy Terry think that Berkwitz

(02:00):
was at the lone lunatic? But he's basically the patsy
that they used to put in jail for this crime.
I do want to say this. I do think his
conversion to Christianity that he's had, that there's a guy
who wrote a book about it. We're going to talk
about that in another podcast. I do think it's legit. However,

(02:21):
I do think that Lindsay can tell me what you
think about this. I do think though he's still scared
and he's still lying about who's involved and stuff, just
because of fear, not not malicious or anything like that.
What do you think, Lindsay?

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I mean, you know, he had all these people
he talked about that ended up dead. Yeah, weird connections later. Yeah.
I just for him to just say, no, oh that
was made up. I just I don't buy it. Yeah,
and I yeah, and fear is often a motivator. Maybe
he's still got family that's alive that he worries about.

(02:55):
There's all kinds of reasons why he could do that.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't necessarily think it's yeah,
fear for himself as much as it is fear for
someone else, But it could be any number of things
that has him afraid and still scared, And honestly, I
can't judge him. I don't know what I do in
that type of situation. It's kind of a scary situation
to know that your life is in the hands of
a potentially a cult that has its hands in literally

(03:22):
everything in the Western world, if not in the world itself.
So let's talk a little bit, lindsay, I feel like
and you can correct me if you don't think so,
but I feel like before we really dive into the
whole cult aspect, when need to start with a woman
named Arles Perry. So she's super important and she happened

(03:43):
before all these murders happened. Am I right?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
She was from the Bismarck area of North Dakota, near.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
The Air Force base there. What is it not?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
It was nineteen seventy fours when she was murdered October
of nineteen seven, before and she married a guy who
was going to Stanford, Bruce D. Perry was kind of
our high school sweetheart. But they were both believers. I
know she was involved in like young life, I want
to say, in different ministries. And yeah, there was the

(04:17):
town she lived in, there was these rumors that there
were kind of a Satanic cult. Apparently her and a
friend went to visit them. You know, they were wanting
to talk to them about the Gospel and things like.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
That, and yeah, witness to him.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, and when her and Bruce married, he was going
to Stanford, so she moved to Stanford and they were
having some problems. They had argued the night they were
walking around the campus and she kind of separated from
him and said, well, I think I want to go
in this this chapel here and pray for a little
I want to be alone and pray for.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
A little wi. Yeah, the campus, Stanford Memorial Church.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
And yeah, her body was found the next day. Her
pants were off and posed in this weird thing where
it was like an angle. You had an angle one
way in the angle the other way. Her legs formed
one angle and the pants formed another angle. I believe
she had been raped obviously and violated in the way

(05:17):
I won't even mention, and just she was found by
the security guard named Stephen Crawford. Will bring him up eventually,
I guess, yeah, yeah, but yeah. Later on David Berkowitz
mentions her.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Very cryptically.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah. Arles Perry hunted, stalk and slain followed to California
Stanford University. He wrote that in nineteen seventy nine.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Is it some book that he uh had or something? Yeah,
I don't remember what book it was, but yeah, it was.
It was very cryptid, and so when Terry followed that out,
that's when he found out.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
There was no prompting there. I mean, he hadn't been fit,
had anything that he just he wrote that all on
his own.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah. Yeah, so he obviously knew about it. Now it's
doubtful that he was there, but he obviously knew about
it because this proves that there was a conspiracy of sorts,
and it was a conspiracy that people communicated with each other.
Wasn't like they were just like like a little band
of older teenagers you tatannic panic type stuff. I want

(06:24):
to clarify that. And this was before the whole Satanic
Panic thing. But this was some of the stuff that
led up to it, and in my opinion, my humble opinion,
a lot of the Satanic panic stuff was a smokescreen
to actually confuse people about the real stuff that was
going on out there. And I've had people I'll say, well,
the Satanic Panic was a wash, and they're like, what
do you mean you don't think rock stars did all?

(06:45):
I said, Yeah, I think rock Stars did stuff. I
think Monley Crew did stuff, but I think they did
it to make money. I don't think they did it
because they were really hardcore occultists. Yeah, but the you know,
the whole system, Hollywood, entertainment industry and governments and military,
all that, you know, it worked together to create a

(07:07):
Satanic panic to really, I mean, and we all know this, well,
I don't watch the news, but when we watch the news,
you know, when something is harped on so much, we
get sick of it, We get tired of it, We
begin to doubt it, we begin to question it, or
we see a movie we think, oh, well, there's no
way that would be real life, you know, like I
think about the whole Jason Bourne and m Kay Ultra

(07:27):
and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, Arlen Perry
was super important to all this because it was the
beginnings of the Sons of Sam showing that there's multiple
murders and it's going to connect two gentlemen that we're
about to dive in here. Terry kind of believed like

(07:51):
that they were cells, like terrorist type cells, like there
was different cells. And the genius of that, I hate
to say the word genius, but it is the genius
of that is that the left hand never knows what
the right hand's doing. And even though that there's communication,
the communication is vague and it's need to know. It's

(08:11):
compartmentalized like the government does with things. That's how you
can have an organization like NASA that has really good
people that are in it, that are in space or
oriented people and et cetera, et cetera. How at the
same time, there's really bad people in it. And that's
most of the bureaus or most of these what you'd
call government agencies three letter agencies that you have good

(08:33):
and bad mixed in with it. But anyway, so the
key players for now, until we get deeper Terry's whole
theory were who Lindsey Berkowitz was one.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well the Car brothers, the Car brothers. Yeah, want to
go into them, Well, let's talking about now.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, I think we went into them a little bit
last time. They were I mean they lived in Yonkers.
Michael the older brother, Michael was a scientologist.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yes, and that's been proven.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah. John the younger brother, obviously, he was in the
Air Force and worked at the base and mine not.
We talked about how he had a really strange suicide
and Michael died I think less than a year later
car accident.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Right when when a car accident John?

Speaker 2 (09:24):
According to Phil Falcon, native American up in North Dakota,
the by Night area caught John doing a ritual in
his house, so he connected him to occultic satanic activity.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well and two, my not it's really close to Bismark, right,
it's the same state. I mean, I don't know how close,
but it be.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, closes. Close is different out west, I guess.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like it is here in
urban Mississippi. Close. Oh, he only lives about twenty miles
down the road. He's close. Yeah yeah, but but yeah,
but but one of the odds. Yeah, so and that's
where John was killed, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
It was in not Yeah, Yeah, he had kind of
he had drove back to kind of the New York
Yonkers area and then left his car and flew back
to mine not and then allegedly ended his life.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah. He was the one they called Wheedy's right, John
Wheez Yeah, Yeah, yeah, which is an allusion to one
of the letters. If you're listening to this, I suggest
you get the different letters.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah. I believe that was the letter that we talked
about last week.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
It was the one that didn't match the handwriting.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, the handwriting and sounded a little bit too sophisticated.
I believe. Yeah, that was the one we'll see. Yeah,
that was the one that had the reference to John
the Wheaties, John Wheaty's Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
And that's what I was about to say, is is
you guys, you know, get online and look at the letters.
You can find them online. Just google him and you
can see letter.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, Breslin. He was a famous newspaper man and he
sent a letter to this newspaper man. It's totally different.
I mean they had handwriting people and analyze it and stuff.
It was written by a different person. I think several
of the letters were written by different people. I'm not mistaken, right, Lindsay,
And so that in itself and that and we talked

(11:24):
about this last time, all the different mug not mug
shots where they called, uh, composite, composite, that's what I
call him, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, composite drawings of short, tall, muscular, skinny,
long hair, short hair at no hat.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
And as we mentioned last week, tommy's Aino, one of
the witnesses for the Moscow It's Killing, said that he
saw rather slender guy with kind of long hair, possibly
wearing a wig. And the minute he saw Berkelewitz, who
was a stocky you know, he's not just like huge,
but he's like a shorter, stockier, milk guy, he knew

(12:04):
that couldn't be the same guy.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, just by his build. Yeah, but there was I
think one that kind of looks like Burkwoods. There was one,
so it was a Burkwitz is not innocent in all this.
I want you guys to understand that right now, we're
not trying to say that an innocent man is in
jail and was framed or anything like that. What we're
trying to say is that Burkwitz was sucked into something
that he didn't I think, in intend or know about,

(12:29):
and he got sucked in. And I don't see him
as a victim, but I don't see him as just
a malicious perpetrator either. I think he just got sucked
in a little too far. And let's see how far
this rabbit hole goes. So we talked about Burkwoitz and
the car brothers. Michael died later, the older one died
in a mysterious correct and the whole thing, like the

(12:52):
group or whatever it is, we don't know yet. It
looks like clean up. It looks like they're they're trying
to tie bluse ends. If I was watching a movie,
this was what it would look like to me, tying
up loose ends. And and I just don't understand this phenomena.
And this is not to insult policemen out there, but
I don't I don't get this investigative to phenomena of

(13:12):
getting like tunnel vision. I mean, I guess everybody gets it.
They get their man and and that's who they want to.
You know, it happens a lot more than I think
people are willing to admit. There's probably I wouldn't say
a lot of people in jail that are wrongly, but
there's there's there's a fair amount, I bet, just because

(13:33):
of tunnel vision and in politics, and the other thing
that people don't think about is just people in law
enforcement and in the justice system that are involved in
this group that we're about to dive into. The reason
I brought up Arlin first is because, in my opinion, Lindsay,

(13:55):
you can correct me if feel wrong here. In my opinion,
Arlin was the first one that it was. It was
obvious that it was a ritualistic murder just because of the.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
As far as connections with Son of Sam, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean just just the arrangement of the body,
some of the some of the stuff that we're not
going to get into because I don't want to make
this too explicit. I probably have to take it explicit anyway,
but just with with stuff with candles and the blasphemy
and the church and where it was, and just just
the the condition of the crime scene and all that.

(14:29):
And then they blamed it on the security guard. Yeah,
And I was unsure about this, Lenja, maybe you can
help me out. Was the security guard really involved or
was he just somebody they just patsied and wrote into it.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
I think. I mean, it's not implausible that he was involved,
that they may have been a part of the network. Yeah,
but every newspaper article I read about it and the
Sons of Sam documentary, I haven't gotten any real details
on the new You know, this was years later that
they finally got some DNA hit that definitely tied him

(15:08):
to it. And he of course killed himself when the
cops were coming to arrest him. So that was convenient.
That tied it all up with a nicely little bow
and suicide.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Who knows, I mean Arkanside, Well, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Mean, he may have killed himself. He may have thought
I'm involved in this and these bad people are gonna
get me anyway if they're worried, I'm going to talk.
This group still around, and I mean, yeah, we could
speculate all day, but it just it just seemed really
like another neat, little lone nut scenario again that just

(15:47):
doesn't make any sense, doesn't explain some of the other stuff, Like,
you know, she was seen talking to a guy a
lot on campus that didn't look like Stephen Crawford. There
was this weird thing where there was a nother Bruce
Perry there that had supposedly talked to her, but it
wasn't her husband or and yeah, there was just all

(16:08):
sorts of I mean, there was the connection with the cult,
and there's a phone line.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Wasn't there a phone line with another guy? But it
was in the phone berry?

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, I just I don't buy
that Crawford. And look as far as his DNA, he
was a security guard who went through that building all
the time. I mean, they don't they haven't said whether
that was on her body or what. They just say
it was more definite. And people a lot of times,
well if the police have something they say is definite,

(16:37):
they you know, yeah, and maybe nine times out of
ten that's true. But this time it was light on
the details when I looked into it, just and this
very convenient suicide. So and honestly, look, sometimes I think, cops,
you're not going to bring these people back and the

(16:58):
family still grieving, and maybe these police officers, maybe this
other than just tunnel vision, there's just this. We want
closure for this, We want closure for this family, and
we want this staying on our police station here for
not being able to figure this out gone, so that
might motivate them sometimes.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, it's not always malicious. Yeah, we do need to
bring It's not fair to say that it's always a railroad.
But you know that that's just reasons for them wanting
to solve it fast. And we do know with the
Burkoitz aspects, there was a mayor there that was pretty
unpopular that was trying to and this these murders made
it more unpopular, and them catching Burkwood's got him reelected.

(17:41):
I mean, you know, there's always that dynamic. That's the
nature of all this. That's how you just have to
sort through information, sort through and dig into the stuff
to really figure out what's really happening. And I was
talking about this on Facebook. A lot of times people
who do investigations or even podcasts, they just they go
for the low hanging for just for the novelty or
the sensationalism of it or or whatever. And I'm sure

(18:05):
we've been guilty of that, because you know, that's just reality.
I read something last night says we all make mistakes,
we just learned to make less of them, and so
that that's just reality. We're all wrong, we're just less
wrong as we grow older and we grow wiser. So
but yeah, just just the easiest way. I know, Okham's

(18:27):
Razor says the easiest as the most. But when you
get into conspiratorial stuff and you get into a web
of different types of stuff which does exist, Ockham's razor
doesn't always come to bear on it at all times.
So all right, Well, the interesting thing about this whole
cult ritual thing that came from Ireland, we can we

(18:47):
can move forward into the Berkwitz murders and stuff, and
I think we need to talk about Entermer Park, the
Devil's Cave, and Maury Terry was was really, you know,
pretty big on this because I mean it was loaded
with occultic stuff and it wasn't kids like you know
me that listened to Iron Maid when I was a
kid and put an eddie all over stuff or put

(19:09):
upside down pentagrams. Because I listen to Motley Crew. You
could tell in the little gutters, so to speak, that
that there was something else going on, something more it was.
It was an adult or a young adult thing, not
a teenager type thing. I'm sure there was teenagers there
that probably were creeped out by it, like we used
to do stuff like that could look at the creepy

(19:30):
stuff to but we weren't a part of it.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah yeah, the whole there just be an edgy thing,
doesn't Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, got an explanation for everything.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Well, And like you know, BT has told us, and
I agree with him, he's told us times fast. He
said that there are dabblers, and most of the people
are dabblers. However, there are serious people that are seriously
into it, and they generally aren't very ocal or like
you said, they're they're not like showing off about it there.
They're doctors and lawyers and and and military people and

(20:06):
government agents and politicians. So it can get as serious
as as you want. And Birkwood said that this place,
under my part, was their initiation site for their group
that they had there, and then they checked that out
and investigate it, and then then it led to the
whole they moved to mine not and the connection there

(20:28):
with John Carr and and that and that I think
if I recall, it was either in Terry's book, I
think it wasn't Terry's, but this was not in the documentary.
In Terry's book, there was an illusion that there was
Satanic cults in my nott already and it's like background
before all this started making connections with the Sons of

(20:51):
Sam and I find that kind of an interesting type thing.
There seems to be a lot of this type of
stuff and I'm just making an observation around military bases. Yeah,
I mean, I recall the one that was that the
one that left the Satanic church, Michael Aquino zat isaac Aquino.

(21:14):
I think he was out in San Francisco or San
Diego or somewhere out there, and that was one with
the tunnels where they were tunneling the little kids from
the base from kindergarten to the base or whatever that
they found. And he says he's still innocent and stuff,
So I guess he's innocent, still proven guilty, but there

(21:34):
was a lot of evidence about that, and it's just
interesting that there's a lot of these these creepy little
group occultic type groups. He grew up around military bases,
so we can get into that later.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well, there's lots of little I mean like tunnels, dog
or animal sacrifice. That was a big part of the
under Myer Park thing was that dogs and I think
specifically German shepherds or Alsatian type dogs were favored. There's
a kind of a mensine. Not not a direct connection there,
but in Ed Sanders' book, one of the groups he

(22:06):
talks about as a possible process offshoot was the q
K order of dog Blood. This group led by a
female who went by q K or searc. Sounds a
lot like and Grimston. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes she

(22:27):
went by seriously as well. Yeah, And they were big
on sacrificing dog and just any sort of animal, and
particularly animals that were solid black for some reason.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Well, but but I do find it interesting that a
lot of German shepherds were and particularly the one and
we need to talk about this, that there's a ear
chopped off in a Yonkers in their under minor part.
And they later found the ear in what they thought
was possibly the ear and my not it was frozen,
it was it was preserved. Yeah, they cut off this

(22:57):
ere and then they found it later it was what
is it tax dermied. It was taximy. The ear was
taxi dermy and and and so that was a huge
red flag kind of type thing. And I'm bringing up
the German shepherds because the German Shepherd. Thing goes back
to the whole Nazi thing that we talked about with
the co operation paper clip and how you know, I

(23:20):
always see Nazism is not really a German thing as
much as that it'll, like Eddie Brock and Venom, it'll
kind of adapt to any culture that it's infiltrated, which
it infiltrated some. I was reading the Little Venda book
and he talked about in Pinochet down in what was

(23:40):
that Peru and uh, I think it was Peru and Chile, Yeah, Chile,
and it very much was Nazi in Chile. And it
just that that parasitic aspect of Nazism, you know, and
it's connections to.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Actually used a weird German cult down there with some
Nazi connections, I believe, to help you know, he use
their facilities to torture people and all sorts of things.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
So yeah, well, and you see it even in our
modern day political drama that we have, is that label
thrown around, and you know, it always goes back to
Germany and things. But the reality is is that that's
been around for a lot longer than Germany. That was
just it's it was reincarnated so to speak, in that
I mean, actually, the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, yeah, it's all over the place. The Indians were
the most famous before the Nazis, but it's all over
the place. You see it in Native American cultures and everywhere.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, which is really interesting. It's in these different groups
that probably had no communication with each other. You see
this interesting symbol. And even the group we're about to
dive into, they kind of brought all this together. Terry
tracked different similar murders and ms to different places, like
you know, we already talked about not We've talked about

(25:06):
Los Angeles. There's some connections there with Manson the family,
and then San Francisco, which we'll get into later in
this episode. But this was the one that really blew
me away. And I don't want to reveal it yet,
but uh, and then Houston, which is interesting place, and
then then New Orleans too that that was left out.

(25:27):
New Orleans was and all this seemed to connect to
this one group called the Processed Church, which we're going
to do an episode. We have somebody who's a man.
She is the bomb. She's pretty much i'd say she's
an expert learning about she wouldn't, but I would say
she she knows so much about the processed Church. She's
going to be on our show and take us deeper

(25:49):
into the processed Church and all their tentacles at different places.
But the processed Church connection. Do we want we really
want to go into all the details of that other
than the fact that they were just involved. We'll say
that for hardcast, I think, But tell us you know
more about their theology. Can you tell me a little bit?
What do they believe? Lindsay, there are scientology offshoot that's important. Yeah,

(26:12):
so like a lot of the.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Weird psychology of scientology was kind of adopted by them.
They used e meters.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
At first, it was called something else before process too.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
It was.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
I want to say transactual analysis. But that's that's another
form of psychology.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, but we said it last episodes. Yeah, but yeah,
I mean they had this strange teaching of almost I
don't want to call it at Trinity because they sometimes
it sounded like that, but most often it sounded more
like just three separate gods. Yeah, some kind of weird
like you got Jehovah and then you got Lucifer, and

(26:55):
then you got Satan. Who's not the same as Lucifer,
and these three separate gods. You know, Jehovah's this very orderly,
kind of rule based god. Lucifers more of this enlightened
sort of.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
A Kis type, hedonistic type god or yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
I think that was important, but you skid some of
that in their view of Satan. The Satan faction in
the group too, Saytan was just more the nihilistic from
my understanding version of you know, just of of Lucifer.
And so there were three factions within the process at
one time.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
And they all three were valid, correct, I mean, the
Jehovah one was valid. It was valid to them, and
Jesus and all this kind of stuff, and well and.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, Jesus and a lot of times Robert de Grimston
is presented as this Christ like figure to them and
sort of the embodiment of the gods or whatever. And
but yeah, the important thing, because it connects to Manson,
who had a similar idea, was this notion that Satan
and Christ had been reconciled in this group, and that

(28:02):
was an important part of their theology.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Who doesn't want reconciliation?

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Huh yeah, yeah, So yeah, that was an important part
of their theology was that Satan in Christ kind of
we were reconciled.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
So that and they were against Lucifer, which was going
to bring in the end times apocalyptic end time race war,
which was that yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Race war. Well yeah, they but they had the same
idea that there would be that this end times war
and that they were accelerating that. That was a part
of their theology too. Like Manson, they wanted to do
something to accelerate. And when you get into Manson, there's
a lot of this argument about no, they just wanted
to try to get bosle Al out of jail, so
they did similar murders to that guy. And I would say,

(28:49):
I think Manson bought some of it, and that may be,
you know, part of the motivation too, that.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, yeah, he wasn't a complete shyster. I go back
to the episode we did with Laurel Canyon. We talked
about him and his enlightenment that he had in jail,
where that well we would suspect is some kind of
a demonic presence. Yeah, the infinite that demonic presence filled
him and incredibly increased his IQ and and everything. I mean,

(29:21):
was he I can't remember was he involved in scientology
before that or was that around the same time, you know,
it gets.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
It gets blurred exactly. It sounds like he went through
the scientology stuff when he was at his second prison
term California. Say McNeil Island, I think it is, And yeah,
he claimed to have gotten to fade a clear status
c Yeah, yeah, so yeah he was. It's hard to

(29:48):
know exactly just from what I've read, it's hard to
figure out exactly. That thing about the infinite comes from
Susan atkins autobiography. Something she claims he told everybody.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Well, I mean, obviously he's not going to say I
got possessed by a demon and yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
He presented it as the divine coming to him in
some way. But yeah, so yeah, that's all that's to
say is that, you know, the process had a certain
theology that borrowed from Christianity and possibly from Crowley and
Satanism and other things and kind of mixed it all together.
And an important part of it was this notion of

(30:27):
Christ and Satan being reconciled. And yeah, they love German
shepherds their theology.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
But yes, yeah, they.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Kept him around. And according to Timothy wily treated them
better than than the people there.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, that's an interesting book you want to check out.
Is that Loves, Sex, Fear, and Death by Timothy Way
It is, It is not. I wouldn't say it's pro
processed church, but I wouldn't also say that it's anti
processed church. He kind of dispels some of the stuff
we might be talking about, and our future guests will
probably dive into a lot of that. But it's still

(31:04):
a great source to find out about the inner workings
of the processed church. Yeah, that we'll put that in
the show notes to look through it. It's interesting, but
the way through, but I mean, you have to really
want it if you and we're kind of nerds, so
we really want it. But yeah, I'm not completely finished
with it, but I've trekked through a lot of it.
And the interesting thing to me about this is I

(31:24):
almost wonder if it's is bigger than the process, that
that's just a subcult of the whole Luciferian thing that's
going on there. And it's like the old Kevin Bacon
game that we used to play with in the eighties.
I mean, let's see how many connections you have to Crawley,
and it's like three degrees from the processed Church to

(31:48):
I mean you have Aron Hubbard to Jack Parsons, to
ally to Aron Hubbard and Jack Parsons to scientology to
the processed Church. There's through three degrees of separation there well.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
And there's a lot of questions that go along with this.
Do the different groups know about each other? Is it
just kind of a you know, will they kind of
allow some off shoot to splinter off, but maybe infiltrate
it and keep it going because it serves their purposes.
There's all sorts of speculation that.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Control opposition type stuff. I mean that exists. I've read
a lot of EMP type books, and it's always different
people who invade when they do the MP. Sometimes it's Iran,
sometimes it's China. But I read the latest one I
read was I think Afghanistan or somewhere Taliban from the
Middle East. And the groups were all cells and they

(32:41):
were brought in through actually through Mexico and Canada, and
they're sleeper cells everywhere, and they knew about each other,
they knew they existed, and they knew they needed to coordinate.
But that's about it. They didn't know who they were
you know, what's that deniability? They wanted to have uh claws,
den ability deniability. Yeah, yeah, and and anyway, so where

(33:04):
do you think the military gets all this from. It's
like a given a take, you know. They they borrow
stuff from a cult, and a cults borrow stuff from
from them because the family manson very much and the
process is very much run like a military with all
their neat hierarchy and their different orders and which hearkens
back to the the grandfather of them all Masonry. So yeah,

(33:30):
I think I think Masonry's probably evolved in that somehow.
But the interesting thing is is that that the processed
church over time. I forget what year maybe you'll know
what years is seventy nine that they disbanded that they disbanded.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
I'm doing exactly when.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
It's late late seventies, right, it's right after the Sons
of Sam.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Family may have been. It may have been earlier than
that that they disbanded, kind of a closer to the
middle of the seventies.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I think maybe it might have been seven four seventy
five like that around the time when when But.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, they they immediately after that they had they had
a foundation church they were just rebranded. Yes, so people,
don't people throw this little neat they disbanded out there
without telling you how many rebrands they've got, which brings
us up to the I don't know how much you
want to get into this. The Best Friends Animal Society,

(34:23):
which doesn't sound like it should have anything to do
with the process, but it although a lot of the
former the founding members started it and they've just that's
their current rebranding, We're just a humane society now.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Well in the four P movement too, that that was
also an aspect of it too, was an all shoot
and yeah, I think that's split.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
That was while they were still active with four P.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, dog Blood. Yeah, there are all these little offshoot groups,
and I think, like you said, I think they let
these offshoots happen because it deflects. It deflects there's not
one monolithic group that you can go after. Always that,
like I said, that plausible deniability. There's that aspect of uh,
you know, which one's the real one.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
I wonder if that qure K order of Dog Blood
wasn't just a Marianne side project where she could do
some of the stuff she couldn't do with the Process.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Process. Yeah, it would be you know, yeah to me
reading Wiley, the Process never they never intended to be
like a normal mainstream Christian or religious type organization. However,
they never intended to go as far in through the
occult and like you know what thylema and hermetic and

(35:36):
and just all that Crawley stuff. OTO. I mean, there's
there's signs that they were connected to the OTO that
Manson was connected to Lodge. Yeah, out in out in
uh Laurel Canyon out in that area out there. Couldn't
do an episode without mentioning Laurel Canyon. But it's it's
really interesting that place.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
One more day up in the canyon, to quote a
popular song exactly when I really looked.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
So talk about Best Friends Animal Society, I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
They're located an interesting state, uh town called kanab in Utah, Utah.
And yeah, there were started by Process members.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
And his business as usual, you know. And I found
an interesting tie into and I'm sure other people have
two back back to the Berkowitz case when they tried
to get him to work for a animal rescue YEP
with distilled German shepherds for their for their sacrifices and stuff.
This this animal thing, it's like letting the fox in

(36:44):
the henhouse sort of speak. And uh, and here's another
thing too. We don't know how much there was human
sacrifice in all this too. I mean we would be definitely,
in my opinion, I would be ignorant to say that
there was not other than just the cleaning up the

(37:04):
loose ends. I mean, those would be counted as sacrifices
and stuff.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
But human sacrifice can look like different things. It doesn't
happen exactly.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's important, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Goofy ritual all the time.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
I mean yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
William Ramsey, you know, speculated about the Smiley Faced Killer
that those could be human sacrifices. It did not always
have to look like some ritual victim and kindergrounds and
candles and altars and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, there's been speculation on two hot bed ones, a
hotbed political issue, but there's a disaster related to a
certain date that has been assumed to be a uh,
mass sacrifice in New York City. And then there's the
modern day method of birth control that people use. I'm

(37:56):
speaking in cryptic code, you guys, I don't be bopped off,
but that could be said to Molac to be a
ritual sacrifice as well. So yeah, I mean, Lindsay's right,
what is human sacrifice in this context? It could be anything.
It doesn't have to be the traditional half naked woman
about to stab a man on a slab, you know,

(38:17):
I mean that's what we think about. But yeah, so
I'm assuming that happened. And even these one offs like
with Leedies, John Carr and Michael Carr, they could be
considered you know, anytime there's blood spilt, it could be
considered a sacrifice. Even wars, even wars. I've heard of
occulting people that they pick wars, they start wars, and

(38:39):
the massive amount of blood. I was studying the word
this week in Nefish and Hebrew basically has the connotation
of soul life. It's suke is is a Greek alternate,
and so when it says life is in the blood,
it's basically saying soul life is in the blood. And
so that brings a whole different dimension of a when

(39:00):
we talk about sacrifice, and including Christ's sacrifice, but even
you know, the se cultic type stuff. What do you
think about this, let's go here, Lidsey, I think This
is pretty important, the whole CIA law enforcement aspect of it.
You know, I'm always quick to say if there's a

(39:22):
three letter agency that if there's something going on a cultic,
they have their hands in it somehow. Now I don't
know if they have it in because they're true believers,
or as much as they want to manipulate, they have
some kind of higher goal, so to speak. So what
do you think about CIA and law enforcement in this
cult in these pockets of groups and stuff.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean hard not we know some of the things
in the CIA has been involved in.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, they've come out.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, yeah, so it could be foolish not to at
least consider it. But yeah, yeah, I mean it's funny.
I was reading a little bit about Jim Jones and
his buddy, I forget the guy's name, a guy he
grew up with was in the CIA. You can you
can you can clear on the recordings around the time

(40:11):
of the so called mass suicide, not really much suicide,
mostly outright murder.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
But sacrifice.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, you can clearly say get so and so out
of here for somebody kills him his CI a friend there.
I mean, it's clear as a bell. So now, what
would the CIA get out of this well. I mean,
if there's mind control and techniques involved, if some cult

(40:41):
leaders really figured that out, of course they want to
learn from him. I mean that's just the simplest.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Ye project monotok and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I mean, keeping people afraid, that's even tide, even doing
really weird stuff. Here, here's one since the whole Satanic
panic thing, that creates the perfect cover. Like anytime something
weird and satanic, there you satanic panic. Conspiracy theorists, not jobs.

(41:12):
It's a convenient sort of gapegoat, yeah, poisoning the well
sort of thing for them. Yeah. So yeah, there's all
sorts of reasons why they would want to be involved
in it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
I mean, Satanic panic is almost as bad as conspiracy
theory as far as it's it's you know, loaded its connotations.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
And shuts down the conversation for a lot of time.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
It's down. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And and it's like anything
like this though, there's some elements of truth, but you know,
Satan never tells an outright lie. He tells the truth,
and that lie is very subtle in there, but it's
enough to twist the truth. So the cults used everything
that mk ultra, they used, these drugs, used, the used hypnosis,

(41:56):
they used traumatic type things. And so while wouldn't there
be some kind of a connection intelligence wise, and we
already know pretty sure that the whole Laurel Canyon or
the whole counterculture that we talked about earlier was a
big CIA experiment just to see how they can influence culture,
which I think it was even more than that. But
on a on a surface level, that is a pretty

(42:19):
well well known type thing I've heard I think McGowan
talked about it in his book, but Jay Dyers talked
about that several people that have have talked Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,
it is in chaos too, isn't it. Yeah, So these
cult groups could have been Petri dishes, you know.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
That's a term.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Uh, And you just see what happens and people, we
have this insatiable obviously since since the Garden of Eaton,
we have this insatiable desire for knowledge, and that's what
pushes and steers the occult and and all this forward
is that nosis that knowledge is power, but not knowledge

(43:04):
is salvation. And it's even infiltrating modern day Christianity. This
this you have to know it's about knowing more than
it is about experiencing or or having a relationship. And
so why wouldn't it be why wouldn't be a cult?
And the occult want to know more about how the
brain works and how these these things work. The problem

(43:24):
I run into, Lindsay, is I don't know which came first,
the chicken or the egg. And I don't mean that literally.
I mean did the CIA initiate this or did the occult?
And the cults already exist and then they'd studied it
and figured out how to capitalize it for themselves. I mean,
there's a there's a story and I don't know how
true it is by a guy that basically said that

(43:46):
that a lot of governmental type stuff they learned dealing
with this, and you can see some of it in
stranger things. Uh, they love to hide and plain in
sight what they do. A lot of the sensory deprivation
stuff they do that in casinos. And they got that
from the mob. The mafia came up with with you know,

(44:07):
no windows, you never know what time of day it is.
That way, you time doesn't really process these blue screens
on the on the different things and and all these
different psychological techniques. Dark psychology is what they're called. The
government just borrowed them carte blanc from organized crime.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
That's an interesting question that comes up a lot in
anything we research. How much of this is intelligence community,
How much of this as cult the occult? How much
of this comes from use Levenda's term, the sinister forces
and things like that. How much? Yeah, how much of
this comes from the spiritual darkness? Yeah, in high places

(44:50):
and yeah, you know, at the end of the day,
it doesn't matter. They all work in concert.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
It's like a spectrum.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, and they all feed in to each other and
they can all be there and it doesn't conflict. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
There's a preacher that I love, and I'm not going
to name him, but shout out. He knows who I'm
talking about. And he's been talking to teaching about quantum physics,
and he was talking about, you know, just waves and
frequencies and stuff, and how we only see so much
of a certain wave link of frequency of color, but
yet there's frequency that we don't see, and there's frequency
that don't hear in this frequency that you know on

(45:28):
the other side too. And I think that would be
a great analogy of what we're talking about, just from
the nature of quantum physics is is we see the colors.
How much better to create a religion that basically says
the only real thing is what you see, which would
I would call scientism. The only real thing that it's
legit is what you see, which we know is crap.

(45:50):
It's not true. I mean, you can't see microwaves or
radio waves or any of that kind of stuff, and
all that frequency is definitely legit. And so I think,
going back to what we were just talking about to think,
I think the answer is is yes. I think that
they obviously the sister forces, the principality's powers, dominions, thrones,

(46:10):
that whole list that Paul talks about, it's still incredibly
active in our world today. And obviously they're at work
with unbelievers and possibly even believers. I could get probably
in trouble for saying that, but I'm just gonna throw
it out there, and uh, you know, they're they're the
ultimate cause because they have an agenda and they're going
forward and Luciferianism, I would think that would be the

(46:33):
ultimate even above the government agencies or even masonry or
all that stuff. Is it all projects itself up to
a Luciferian, you know, and now I'm so confused to
who Satan is. I don't know. It's like, the more
I learned about the Giants and then definitely in the
Elohim and all this kind of stuff, I don't know
who Satan is anymore. We'll call them the Satan, the

(46:54):
main guy. Yeah, uh whether you know it's not looseifer,
I know that, but anyway, uh, it all if there
is just one man guy there might be a counsel.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Is kind of problematic to the whole thing because we don't.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Know well, and it was in the Vulgate. Vulgate and
it means light bringer.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
People have used that. Cults have used that to say
that's the other side of Jesus, you know, he's the
morning star in which he is.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
It sounds like process theology.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yeah exactly. Yeah. So, but yeah, I just want to
go down that road because I think it's important in
this whole Sons of Sam that we need to bring
in the aspect of CIA and law enforcement because that
could have been potentially some of the reasons why. I
just remember in one of those that documentary watched with
the Netflix there was one policeman in there. He had

(47:47):
a bad for Maury Terry. He wanted him to go down,
and it was a lot of juice behind it. It
was really sus is how I would say it. And
it could just be because he saw Maury Terry as
kind of counteracting their investigations and saying they didn't do
a good job, or it could be more, but there

(48:08):
was definitely there was too many leaks and different things
too as well for there not to be some kind
of law enforcement a local you know, local law enforcement
involvement in the in these occults or occult type stuff.
So let's let's talk a little bit about you know,
you brought up some of this earlier. The dove into this,

(48:31):
the more we realized that there was a possibility this
spread to other suo killers. And the biggest one to
me was the zodiac and all the similarities. I'm actually
looking through him now, I'm actually moved on and reading
and studying just his symbol and how it relates to
the process Church, which how it relates to the Star

(48:53):
of David, which it had, interestingly enough, which how it
relates to you know, Baphomet, which it relates It's interesting.
The symbology of all this, this type of stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
And the ses. I mean, and it just looks like
a crosshairs.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah yeah, and but but you know, then you throw
in the cryptic letters. Just like the Sons of Sam,
they were written in code. Burke Woitz admitted at some
point in time. I'm not saying he's the Zodiac Killer,
but burk Woitz admitted it at one point in time
that he loved the whole code dimension, that that that
they put that in their on purpose to you know,

(49:27):
it was thrilling to see if they could figure out
the codes. Then you have another one that's that's interesting,
and I haven't really dove into this one though. You
have the whole Richard Ramirez, the Knight's Talker, and then
Mary Terry I think in his book alludes to the
was the Hillside stranglers that could have been involved as well.

(49:50):
I remember that case was blown wide open because they
thought it was one and then all of a sudden
they realized it was two. And Terry kind of alluded
to the fact, well maybe there's more than to I
tell you what it does to me, lindsay, it makes
me begin to believe that this this this psychology of
serial killers that we have is is not complete. Yeah,

(50:14):
that that they're using people that are wired like that,
but they're not just these lone crazy psychopaths or sociopaths
that they're part of an army. Does that sound really weird?
But but but that's kind of the image that I have,
that that there's a serio serial killer army out there
that's been m k ultrude or programmed or whatever. This

(50:36):
is all speculation, you guys. This is not me saying
I have empirical evidence for this. I just want to
throw that out there.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Lucas and audust Tool Yep, yeah, I'm to say that.
And then of course they've been discredited because, yeah, he
took credit for a lot of murders he couldn't have committed.
We all know that, and that for some reason just
means he all or nothing kind of mentality. Either he
killed all the people he said he did, or he

(51:02):
killed none kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
And yeah, principle very convenient.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
I mean, you know, working to get him freed when
when he very rarely was talking about Texas here, even
outside of when w was governor there, that rarely happened.
And well, they made it. Well, you know, there was
no real evidence tying him to any of this stuff,

(51:29):
but yeah, my point is there, Like, you know, he
said there was a network with occultic connections and military
connections doing all this, that he had received training, and
I'll admit it's it's hard to unravel his lives from
the truth. But he did point people to this like
ranch or something that where they found stuff. And yeah,

(51:53):
I mean I personally, I personally find it hard to
believe that there's just you know that it's easy for
one guy to kill dozens, certainly when you get into
the dozens of people and get away with it, as
long as some of them do without some help and
guidance or at least a network that can can you know, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Well I've heard up and things like that. It's just
hard to I agree too, it's almost incredible to believe.
And I've heard psychologists float this like sith sort of
theory that there there could be two there's only a
mentor and a mentory apprentice and master and all that.
But yeah, I just I don't know. And I find

(52:37):
it really interesting though that our culture always pushes the
serial killer as the lone crazy person. Yeah, I don't
think I've ever seen like in Criminal Minds or some
of those shows or anything like a there might have
been I don't know for sure, but there might have
been a group. Per se, this came to a bigger group,

(52:58):
and I mean there's just a obvious that there's an
agenda going on here, and you know, it's it's remarkable
to me that that disease that just we had an
epidemic with just brought to lights so many revelations of
so many different things. I mean, we were at such
a different place right now in twenty twenty five than
we were in twenty nineteen. Yeah, and all this still existed,

(53:23):
but it's just the level of it and the awakening
part of it is really fascinating, which almost makes me wonder,
why is that happening? What's going on there? So you know,
and then we have the Manson family. That's the classic connection.
I mean, they were directly connected to scientology and the process. Then,
like we've talked about earlier, the Glory Canyon connection, we

(53:47):
know that that was a sy op in a lot
of ways to create a crazy culture and it did it.
And you heard in some of our earlier podcasts a
lot of these big rock stars were and were pedophiles,
and we're mk ultra. They were doing traumatic things at
an Air Force base there in the canyon. And anyway,

(54:10):
we don't need to think that that ended in nineteen
seventy nine, you know, like somehow the eighties ushered into
this utopia or that it doesn't happen now. It's a
lot harder, I think, But then in some ways it
could be a lot easier because technology can be used
to clean up better.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Way as well to double edged sword kind of well.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
And yeah, and then then you run into this whole
aspect of distraction, spokescreen kind of stuff. And we just
had an incident with some they're properly labeled space travelers,
I think was what NASA called them. That's all we've
heard about what's going on. Yeah, you know, I'm always

(54:54):
sused now when the media focuses on one trite, stupid
event and they hone in on it, and you're like, right,
that's what the left hand or the right hand is doing.
What's the left hand doing? Yeah, And I use that
on purpose, and you know, you always wonder what's really happening.
And I do think that there is a certified governmental

(55:15):
conspiracy to erode public trust in the government. Definitely. I mean,
I tell my youngest son all the time that I
love our country, but I don't trust our government. And
I agree with some of the things that they came
about with Originally, I don't believe in the myth of
the Christian nation stuff. But yeah, and there's just too

(55:37):
too much connection of these different serial killers. And you know,
maybe the Zodiac Killer will be one will dive into
later or whatever, or we can even talk talk about
the Zodiact with our guest that we have on the show. Now,
let's just wrap this up. Do you think, Lindsey, your
honest opinion that the process is still in action, that

(55:58):
they're still doing stuff that we knew that the Friends
was it Best Friends Animal Society. We know it's to exist.
We know that our friend that's gonna be on the
show gets constant flack and stuff from weird places and
weird stuff. I just wonder how active the process is

(56:19):
or the process is just transformed into another type thing
that's even outside the Best Friends in Animal Society.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
So what do you think. I don't see why they
would stop doing what they had been doing. We know
they were trying to hide things back then. Yeah. Yeah,
there's still sort of groups and people who are really
into the process. Maybe that guest you talked about talk
about this more, but I mean, yeah, yeah, musicians, artists,

(56:52):
art collectives, wellness.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
I found out that there's a huge push for this
wellness kind of stuff. Interesting, a lot of them support
Robert Kennedy. I found out all these wellness organs and
they're diving into Silicon Valley And it makes me wonder
about Elon. I mean, Elon is is sussing a lot
of things. Is how ween cost him? He did last year,

(57:18):
and I wonder if he's just doing that to be
a troll. But at the same time, that's a good
way to hide and plain sight. Just be a troll
and act like you're trolling when you're really being serious.
And I hope to get into this later on down
the road in our podcast and different episodes about this
whole technology occultism, you know, technomancy is the word for it,

(57:42):
and what's going on there and take a dive into
that kind of stuff. Yeah, anything else? What about Maury Terry?
Do you think he was taken out or do you
think he was just he just died. I mean they
just credited him, you.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Know, I don't. Yeah, Like, I don't think they had
to take him out. Yeah, that's my opinion on it.
They may have, but I don't think they had to.
I think they discredited him to such a degree and
maybe yeah, drove drove him a little crazy.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, yeah, the tunnel vision too.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
I think that Netflix documentary was a part of it.
I think there was other motivations going on there. I
do too, and it could have just been used to
do that. But yeah, I don't think they had to.
I think I think they killed his spirit so to speak,
over the years and turned him into shell husk of
who he formerly was and discredited him. Yeah, I mean

(58:38):
they didn't have to. The damnage was already done when
he died.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
I think, well, and you look at the Netflix video.
It showed some of the shows he well, I mean
they would put him on a like I forget the
names of the shows back in the eighties and stuff that.
I mean, I used to watch them. They were cool.
But but they put him on a show with like
two nut jobs, I mean like literally you know, and
then and then process of guild by association even though

(59:02):
he was trying to be rational and wasn't you know,
looking at people's auras or some crazy like that was
and it immediately discredited him, disqualified him. And then and
we've talked about this, the fact that this guy that
did the Netflix for him, you know, lead to promote
Mary Terry's agenda. It was about Marie Terry's life. It

(59:25):
was more about that than it was the Sun de Sam,
even though it was about the son of Sam. If
Marie Terry was alive, in my opinion, he wouldn't want
that guy anywhere near his book writing a special forward
or preface. I think a lot of because of our society.
I think a lot of people are going to watch
the documentary and that's going to be it, and they're
going to believe that when in reality, and you told

(59:49):
me this before I did it, But when I read
the book, there were so many differences in the book
than there is in the documentary. It was just blatant.
It was it was just bo there's a basic skeleton,
but there was he went so much deeper into so
much stuff, and it was it was almost like intentionally
left out, you know. And when you told me that,

(01:00:11):
I was like surely, surely can't you know. But yeah,
when I when I labored through that that thing, I'm like, man,
that is a totally different perspective of this whole Sons
of Sam aspect than this Netflix documentary that was that
was out there.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
So yeah, I mean, yeah, he befriended him at one
point too. It's important to bring that up. Yeah, a
tuna sandwich is with him. He says that in the
foreword mm hmm. One way or another, it ends up
contributing to the the you use the word taking out,

(01:00:48):
taking out of his credibility and his character.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah, Well, I want to say this,
we are on a journey. This podcast is on a
journey with our different episodes to kind of get of
a teaser where we're going. We're trying to unravel, to
figure out the involvement of cults, the occult, different stuff
like that. I mean, we're still going to have other

(01:01:13):
episodes of what I call fun stuff and some sponsor
only episodes and everything like more lighter stuff, but we're
on a path to unravel, maybe hopefully. And I don't
want to be grandiose and say we've got all the answers,
because we don't. I mean, we have zilch, but we're

(01:01:36):
on the path to know more. Even though we know
very little, we want to know more of the very little.
I guess it is a better way to put it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
We have many episodes coming you guys that are going
to really dive deeper into this and all these connections
and all this kind of stuff. So Sons of Sam's
not the last time you hear about that. This is
just our little teaser intro to it, and you're gonna
hear about a lot of other things as well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
And this has been an interesting journey on this one
in particular, and as with all of them, there was
overlap with stuff we've we've talked about in the past.
So I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes. Yeah,
moving forward here, Yeah, yeah, it's just stay with us here.
It'll be interesting, we promise.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yeah, definitely. What is that Grateful Dead song? What a long,
strange trip it's been, And they were talking about something else,
but we're just talking about the just just what's out
there and with us, you guys, we want to tell
you up front, you know, some of what we're doing,
maybe even a large portion of what we're doing in speculation.
We're trying to piece things together. You know, we have evidence,

(01:02:49):
but like I said, we don't have empirical proof. But
we're just going to throw things out there and let
people think and decide for themselves what you think, what
could it be? How could it go? So please don't
don't take us as saying, oh, this is how it was,
and this is us, along with you, taking a journey
into something that's behind the scenes that's a lot more

(01:03:10):
sinister and is probably a lot bigger than we imagine.
So well, thank you guys out there, and Lindsey, thank
you as always for being likewise the best host, the
hostess with the mostest and I just love the conversation.
We just had a good conversation about this and you guys,

(01:03:32):
we will see you soon. So remember though, this all
comes back to Jesus. Jesus is the truth. He's the way,
he's the life, and he is the answer to all
it is, to all these questions. He is He's the answer,
and pursue truth, pursue the person. Thanks for listening and

(01:03:53):
supporting us, and remember stay naturally.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
Supernaturally stress.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
Stress in stream s.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Yeah,