Author and retired Professor of Communications, Mark Brake, joins the program to explore the science behind social revolutions. Known for his bestselling books on The Beatles, Aliens, Star Trek, and other powerful cultural phenomena, Brake breaks down how major movements and pop culture icons don’t just reflect change — they ignite it. From Beatlemania to sci-fi’s role in shaping public perception, this conversation dives into the hidden systems, psychological triggers and media dynamics that turn entertainment into mass transformation. What do cultural touchstones tell us about where society is headed? And what patterns should we recognize in today’s climate? A fascinating and mind-expanding discussion on the intersection of communication, science and cultural evolution — and how revolutions often begin with a spark we don’t see coming.
Learn more at https://MarkBrakeDotorg.wordpress.com
Learn more at https://MarkBrakeDotorg.wordpress.com
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to the Frane Radio Network franradionetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
That's absolutely spot on. One of my favorite facts about
the Beatles. I mean, there are so many firsts, but
you take the example of Sergeant Pepper is thought to
be one of the first concept albums. For good or bad,
because some of them can be a little bit over
the top. But when that experimental kind of music you
might call progressive music started Sergeant Peppers about sixty seven.
(00:52):
I remember reading between sixty eight and seventy two, record
company executives didn't know what they were doing because they
had no idea what would sell next, because creativity was
to the foe, and creativity was like the watch word,
and they were the very progressive bands coming up between
those two years. In those four years.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
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(02:14):
Welcome to Business Game Changers. I'm Sarah Westall. I have
Mark Brake Company in the program. He is a retired
professor of communications, the science of communications. He's written over
thirty books on the science of communications. But he's focused
on aliens. He's focused on the Beatles. He focus his
new book is on Assassin's Creed and we're going to
(02:36):
talk about a lot of this and then get into
I really appreciated this conversation because it was more of
a conversation than I have. Most of my shows are
a little bit more conversation than interview. This one really
was a great conversation one of those, and I got
to talk about a lot of my own thinking on
some of these subjects, and I hope you can appreciate this.
(02:59):
We're going to talk about the science of creativity, where
creativity comes from, and how you see it from a
historical standpoint in film and in movies and in video games,
and he's an expert in this area. I think you're
going to really appreciate this conversation. Maybe it'll give you
some insight on kind of today's world. But before we
(03:22):
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(03:44):
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(04:07):
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dot com undershop. Okay, let's get into this fascinating discussion
(05:37):
that I have with Mark Break. Hi. Mark, welcome to
the program. Hi, thank you, Yeah, glad you're here. You
are a retired professor of the science of communications. What
the hell you'ing at? And what does that mean? So
people understand that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Means the way in which sciences, well, most people in
the world get their diet of science, if that doesn't
sound too restrictive. They get their diet of science through
popular culture, so through film and through fiction. So my
job always was to look at film and fiction and
say a little bit about the way the kind of
(06:20):
science that's communicated through through culture.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I guess, and what do you mean by science? Is
it a pattern that you see patterns in film and
entertainment that people enjoy, or patterns in the way that
it affects people, or how communication of science to the
masses is done, or what is it? What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's the third one. It's what kind of science is
in James Bond, for instance, was one of the books
I did. So James Bond is often associated with just
spy stuff, but if you look carefully at James Bond movies,
most of the nemesy of Jim's Bond, most of the
villains actually have got a very strong sci fi element
(07:05):
to them. They usually mad men, almost always men, of course,
mad men who want to take over the world. So
I particularly did a book on Jim's Bond which I
called spi Fi. It's a little bit spy and it's
a little bit sci fi. So what is the science
in those books, like the Science of Gold for instance,
and how they communicated? What does it say about science
(07:28):
in society?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
What is it If you were to make a you know,
synapsis of that, what would you say that was what.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
The Bond stuff? I mean, what would you can trace
the evolution of society's infatuation or otherwise with science by
looking at the way that the film's evolved, so pretty
low scale at the beginning, but it tends to get
(07:58):
it tends towards the Bond villains are more and more
like oligarchs. There's a lot of those around at the moment, right,
So it tends to be more and more oligarchs as
time wears on through the Bond movies.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So it's more like the patterns of what people and
culture think is evil at this point.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So well, in that particular case, yeah, but if you
take Star Wars, I mean the very beginning of the
Star Wars franchise, the first movie, you know, the viewer
sees that we're on a planet which has an orbitgrown
two stars. That's mid nineteen seventy seven. At the time,
nobody was sure if a planet could be an orbit
ground two stars at the same time. It was only
(08:43):
much later that we found out that that was possible,
and we've since discovered planets and orbitgrown two stars. So
and also, you know, Star Wars takes place in another
galaxy a long long time ago. Is that possible? How
come the humans in the other galaxy? Is that a thing? Mean? Yeah,
it's all those kinds of questions. But people want to
(09:03):
maybe look a little bit deeper into their enjoyment of
the movies, and you.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
See science as being something people really care about. Is
it you know, the masses care about it? Or are
they fascinated by it? But they want to look at
it from an entertainment standpoint? Because good, well.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
What I think the second thing you said, I mean,
whether they cared about it or not, it's a good question.
I think a lot of them are probably put off
science when they were in school. And yet when you
think about it, if you look at the on Wikipedia
at the top fifty gross and highest grossing movies of
all time, you'd be surprised how many of those are
(09:42):
science and nerdy? How many of them? Yeah, because you know,
there's always this depiction of sci fi people being nerdy
and geeky, but actually the top fifty movies is almost
well a lot or over fifty percent of them as
sci fi movies. I'm talking stuff like you know, the
Marvel Universe, the DC Universe, Avatar, all this stuff, the
(10:04):
Star Wars stuff. The Honey Potter is kind of related
sci fi because it's science fantasy, do you know. I mean,
so all that stuff, I think people are more interested
in the ramifications of science. Always scigns can take us
than they think that they are, because after all, Star
Wars is in a way about space travel.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
That's right, well, and I guess the creativity of that.
I like the fact you said nerdy because I always
said that I liked what I'm doing Now. I liked
it when it was nerdy, before all the people came
into it and the math I started getting into it
because it was so much more pure, And now I
still try to stay true to what I'm doing. That's
(10:43):
why someone like you is on my program. But it's
changed a lot, but they still like that nerdy element,
but they want it more glamorized or something.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
They're certainly very glamorous, isn't it. I mean, I think
that CGI has enabled as books of the imagination, which
science fiction is very much associated with imagination, of course,
and creativity and other worlds and other dimensions, and CGI
has enabled those things to be visualized on the screen,
which is what's happened in the last generation of movies.
(11:16):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And you know I used to back in the college days,
I've had deep conversations with people, deep but conversations with
people that the people who really forge new science, new creativity,
new frontiers in anything is a combination a lot of
times of creativity and science background.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Absolutely. I mean in the case of the Beatles, what's
interesting about that that that's just the latest book that
I've done. In the case of the Beatles, their lack
of formal training in music, their lack of formal their
education is what made them creative.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think so too. And I taught entrepreneurship in a
university and and one of the things that when I
was studying it was I noticed that the ones who
are the most successful at being entrepreneurs aren't business students.
They're artists.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I icknowagine the absolutely the.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Artists are because why are the artists because they're not
confined in their structured way of thinking. Yeah, and they're
solving problems from a creative standpoint. They don't know what
they don't know, so they go and they just figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah. I'm really pleased you've asked me this, because even
though you would have thought it was a very difficult
fit combining the Beatles with science fiction, what you've just
said to me is made me realize that that's exactly
the case. What does science fiction do that? Science doesn't.
Science is held back by the parameters of science, the
rules and laws of science. You have to stay within them. Well,
(12:50):
science fiction doesn't care about that. Science fiction just wants
to do the creativity associate or whatever narrative. They want
to know, what's it like living on Mars or whatever
it might be. So there's a similarity there. The Beatles
are untrained and formally untrained in music, so they go
with the creativity. Same with science sci fi. Sci fi
doesn't bother about the rules of science. It might, you know,
(13:12):
sometimes think oh, we'd better make sure a thing shoot straight,
not bent, or whatever it might be. But nonetheless they've
got that same disregard for convention, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Well, and that's why I think there was so much
more creativity in art, or at least in music back
in the seventies and eighties maybe sixties, seventies, eighties still
was there, and then it started to get really commercialized,
and you just don't see the same creativity that you
saw back then.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's absolutely spot on one of my favorite facts about
the Beatles. I mean, there are so many firsts, but
you take the example of Sergeant Pepper is thought to
be one of the first concept albums, for good or bad,
because some of them can be a little bit over
the top. But when that experimental kind of music you
might call progressive music started Sergeant Peppers about sixty seven.
(14:05):
I remember reading between sixty eight and seventy two, record
company executives didn't know what they were doing because they
had no idea what would sell next, because creativity was
to the fore, and creativity was like the watchwork, and
they were just very progressive bands coming up between those
two years. In those four years, any many many things
(14:28):
sold that wouldn't have sold earlier, and wouldn't have sold
since you know, bands like Oh in Britain we have
very weird bands like the Incredible String Band, and they're very,
very quirky and very odd. And those bands made it,
and I don't think they would have had any other time.
It became more formal as than commercial after that.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, like led Zeppelin. We just watched a documentary on them,
and they were just this creative force and they somehow,
you know, they were able to negotiate a contract where
they could maintain their creativity. Would never have gotten that
contract today, and so much of their music was just
them screwing around, coming up with stuff they probably didn't
(15:08):
say say this is they weren't say they were screwing around.
But that's part of the creative process.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
As you're just I think you're right. I mean the
fact that the interesting link between the Beatles and led
Zeppelin is both of the bands are excellent examples of
British people copying American people and remixing American music with
a British twist. I mean, the Beatles are far more
(15:33):
British than led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin almost you know, Okay,
there's a little bit of a mix there, but I
think they're more true to the event the roots of
the American music that they play led Zepplin, because there's
obviously derived from blues, a very loud electric blues. In
that particular case, David Bowie said something very interesting about
British rock music. He said, the British do everything with
(15:57):
a kind of smug air, smug self satisfied there. They
know that rock music doesn't come from their soul. Rock
music is American. Nonetheless, they try it on for size
and give it a little bit of a twist. So
there's a lot of if you think about the preening
of Mick Jagger, or the comedy camp of Elton John,
(16:19):
or the like the mop top shaking the heads of
the Beatles. It's all a little bit tongue in cheek
and when you see people. There's a great guy on
an American and YouTuber called Rick Biatto who's a record producer,
and when he was looking at the Get Back documentary
that was out a couple of years back, I can't
remember how long it is now, he said he was
amazed how much the Beatles were goofing about. How much
(16:42):
goofing about there was, you know that kind of creativity thing.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
That's where the spark is is when you're just goofing
around and you're not absolute structure.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes. In fact, the Beatles producer George Martin, before he
became famously the producer of Beatles and of course one
of the most famous record producers you know, I think
he started that trend with the record producer was just
as famous as the band that they were producing. Before
he produced the Beatles, he produced comedy records and novelty records,
(17:15):
so he was used to putting soundscapes, special effects and
sound effects in the backdrop Togain make a kind of
sound collage to enhance the recording, so and not lend
a lot as well towards the creativity of it. So
it's an interesting and very interesting question about the creativity thing.
The lack of formal training in the Beatles and in
(17:38):
sci Fi that lends itself to what they do.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
But do you know that this is statistically accurate that
most inventions come most innovations that forge of field forward
come from with from outside a field, because once you're
inside a specific area, you you're locked in a paradigm,
and paradigm changes come from outside the field because they're
(18:05):
not locked in that paradigm, they're also blocked. You know.
People don't want to hear it because it's not part
of it. But that's where the majority of the significant
advancements in any field usually come from outside the field.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well, that's interesting as well from the point of view
the Beatles the Beatless from outside. Really they do American music,
but they're from outside America and you know what I mean,
they come in into America with a British twist. So
that's also an interesting competison.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah. Well, one thing though, I think it's double edged sword,
I'm going to talk about it from like a healthcare
or some other or big tech or something like that.
That And this is one of the themes that I've
been saying, is that just because you can creatively think
about something doesn't mean it's true either. So it's like
this double edged sword. Creativity creates these advancements and these
(18:53):
paradigm changes, but the same time, just because you can
creatively think that something's true doesn't make it true either.
I'm dealing with people who like careers just because you
can creatively think about it, it's nonslarly true. And so
I get pushback on some of my shows based on that.
I'm like, no, that you still need the effects behind that.
(19:14):
So it's kind of an interesting phenomena where creativity is
what pushes fields forward. But yet you've got to have
some self checks too when it comes to hard science
that it's actually true.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, and in fact, you just made me think about
many of them. Meetings of space agencies like NASA and
the ESA, when they have brainstorm meetings, they often invite
science fiction authors because science fiction authors are used to
(19:49):
thinking outside the box about something or other, so they'll
use them as part of that meeting the sundbox area
to think about missions of the futu and different ways
of going about these things, I guess.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
But that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Go ahead, indeed, Yeah, well they still, as you said,
they're still constrained by the facts of the matter. It
may not be possible to do certain things like fly
to the moon or something. But yeah. The first one
of the first alien fiction stories written in the English
lamb and not actually it was written in German. Johannes Kaepler,
the firms German mathematician, wrote a book in the sixteen hundreds,
(20:28):
would you believe because early science fiction goes a long
way back, goes through the Arabian nights at science fiction
in it. And there was a Greek sat the rest
living at about one hundred AD, of course, called I'll come
back to him all of a sudden forgotten his name Lucian. Sorry,
Lucian wrote a book in about one hundred AD which
is basically about a journey to the moon. But in
(20:51):
Johannas Kapler's book, people get the mean he can't be
bothered to think up a propulsion method, so he just
says his protagonist just flies you know it's a little
bit tricky for most people, but basically then but the.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Whole thing is that it shows Okay, the creativity can
get us thinking about the possibility, but we have to
have some structuring to come back and say what the
facts are. But those facts can change over time to
what you think is possible and maybe, but at this
point we don't have it, so we have to. It's
kind of a tug of war, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Absolutely. In fact, Serrano de Bergerac in the sixteen hundreds
wrote a science fiction story in which he did come
up with a method of propulsion. Again, there was another
off Earth story, and our method of propulsion was essentially
what we know called the ramjet. Who's taking a nozzle
(21:51):
and pushing a lot of air through it very quickly.
And Serana came up with the idea of that's how
you would if you could do that forcefully, you'd be
able to take off the Earth. After all, the Earth
is only about twenty Space is only about sixty miles away.
It's only sixty miles into space, sorry, sixty miles in
the atmosphere then you're in space. So many places in
(22:12):
the US, many many places are closer to space than
the out of the sea.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Which I guess if you think about it that way.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah. No. In fact, in Britain most places are quite
close to the coast, so we're not that particularly, do
you know.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, you're not like Denver, that's high in the mountains.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, exactly, So Denver's no doubt they get closer to
space than is to the sea.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But yeah, yeah, how interesting is that? Okay, So why
did you get into the science like you did the
science of the Beatles? How did you become fascinated with
these patterns that affect people?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Okay, Well, I'm very old, that's the first thing. My
mother old, very kind. My mother recently passed at the
age of ninety, and I was looking through some stuff
in the attic, some stuff that had been in the
family home for many years, and I discovered a little
news book of that I'd written when I was in
(23:11):
what you might call kindergarten or first grade, a count
remember what do you call? Anyway, I was young, I
think it was about six or seven, and I'd noticed,
to my delight that one of the stories in this
news book that I'd written at that tended age was
a story about the Beatles there was only spelling was atrocious,
by the way, so much for me being an author.
Spelling was atrocious. But I had drawn the Beatles in
(23:33):
a very kind of crude way, and I was proud
to see that I got Paul McCartney's left handed rather
than right handed. But that made me think about how
far back in my life the Beatles go, and how
far back in British culture generally speaking, the Beatles go.
(23:54):
A lot of people in the world have an individual
personal relationship with the Beatles, but there's a relationship that
we have as a culture. I think in the story
of the twentieth century. And I noticed, for instance, in
the opening ceremony of the London Olympics in twenty twelve,
when they told the story of Britain, which of course
(24:14):
began with the Industrial Revolution and so on and so forth.
The Beatles were a very strong part of the coming
of age of Britain in the way that that was told.
Can't remember the name of Danny Wat's his face, the
film director had directed the opening ceremony. I can't remember
sayning now, But anyway.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
People look at s well, it is kind of interesting
because the Beatles are there. They had so many top songs,
and they're still catchy today. When you listen to them,
you can you still like them. So what is it about?
How did they figure that out? I mean the genius
of I think that kind of genius comes. It's inspired
(24:55):
from outside. It just some it comes to you. But
you saw a pattern with their music, what would what would?
How would you encapsulate their pattern?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I think it's a lot to do with well, it's
a lot to do with their being influenced by American music.
There was a lot in the fifties. I think there
was the idea of the invention of youth as well
to a certain extent where oh, there's a great cote
by John Lennon. I think I'm probably not going to
be able to remember it very well, but John Lennon
(25:29):
talking about the fact that they were the first generation
that didn't go to war. They were the first generation
that didn't join an army. I thought was interesting. Isn't
that quite sadly late? If I excuse me to seck
it's right in the Yeah, the Beatles on the Elk
were created by the vacuum of non conscription. We were
(25:51):
the army that never was. We were the generation that
were allowed to live. And I think, wow, that's quite
deep live because yeah, if you compare that well people are.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Going to war that you can unpack that and saying
allowed to live, but people who died in war. But
they also when you go to war, there's a part
of your soul that dies.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, absolutely, And there's there's there's a famous in Europe.
There's a number of famous poets World War One poets
that died in World War One. A tremenous waste of
life of like very creative people. But I think it's
to do with that period. A lot of the success
in terms of what you might call the brand of
(26:35):
the Beatles, is being suggested that the Beatles came to
America in the direct wake of Kennedy's assassination when the
nation was still in the morning, because Kennedy was assassinated
in November. By February, the Beatles were on the Ed
Sullivan Show, seeing It to seventy three million people, and
(26:56):
modern Scorsese's Beatles in sixty four, that documentary that was
recently on Apple or whatever platform it was. There were
people on that, including the film directed David Lynch, who
was talking about the fact that it felt like a
reaction or like a release to the morning of Kennedy's assassination,
(27:18):
like you know, youthful, revolutionary, elam and joy of this
new music as a reaction to what went before, as
you know. I mean, it sounds like plausible, but so
many people have said it that people were there at
the time. I thought, I think, do you.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Think that we're primed for something else? I mean, we
came out of COVID, We're coming out of all these
wars we're having. I don't think there's been a time
in history where we've had more turmoil than we have
right now, and usually that creates a burst of creativity.
But yet we have this commercial control structure over our
creative nature. Do you think there's this conflict that's at
(27:59):
hand right now?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I think there probably normally is a lot of conflict
in the world, and maybe what's going on is technical.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But what I'm saying is there a conflict of this
burst of creativity needing to come out, but there's this
commercial control over it. How do you think that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's a good that's a good conte It's difficult, isn't it?
Because all these staged reality TV shows associated with talent
that you get both in your country and in mind,
a very controlled product is completely different to I understand
that the Beatles played one thousand, two hundred live gigs
(28:38):
before they got a record deal. May that's a huge
number in Britain and in Hamburg in Germany, so they
really learned their trade before. You know, it's the complete
opposite of just going on a talent TV show. You're
like in that manufactured way that you have now, so
it's a ground swell, almost an organic.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
It's the organic creativity that's lost. You know. One of
the things that I taught. I taught at a business
school and entrepreneurship and different things, and one of the
things that I taught was that depending on the type
of business that you have, you have to bed you
have a certain amount of structure. The more creative the
(29:23):
business is, the less structure you want or need. I mean,
you can't have it otherwise you kill the creativity all
the way to something like insurance or finance, where it's
a highly structured business, so the process has to be
you have to be hands off. It's kind of like
the way that they manage doctors is too structure they're
(29:43):
not treating them like professional there's a creativity around any
kind of professional practice, and they're trying to force a
very structured and it's just killing the industry. And it's
like camorrhaging everywhere. It's you can see it in that
the industry is collapsing, and it's the same with the
music industry. They're trying to put these business people want
(30:05):
to always insert the strict process or on something that's
going to die on the vine if you do it.
But what's going to happen is it's going to burst
out somewhere else, I think is what's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
That's an interesting question about constraints on creativity I was
reading about. There was an interview with Paul McCartney when
he was talking about why a Beatles song so memorable,
and he said they didn't have any technology to record
their voices if they were on tour in a tour bus,
(30:36):
they didn't have even a tape recorder to record their voices.
And you know, like you might even on your smartphone today.
You know, you think of a little ditty and you
record it. None of that, And he says that's why
he thought the songs were more memorable, more melodic, because
they had to remember them tomorrow to write them down
when they had a spare five minutes to do so.
(30:58):
But as these days, wherever you are, however throwaway, the
idea might be you can record it straight away, it's
not necessarily a good thing.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Or you can also apply tools to it. Now, the
AI tools and the creative you know, the AI creates
your creativity, but it's still not creative in a lot
of way. Yes, is just inherently not creative. People think
it's an illusion of creativity.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But it's not that. Record producer Rick Piotto are remembering
analyzing with modern tools analyzing a led Zeppelin track and
counting the beats in the bar and pointing out how
many mistakes there work because led Zeppelin effectively playing it live,
and that that is more human to the ear than
(31:44):
synthesized computer generated music, because the mistakes are kind of quirky, the.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
All to it they add to it. Yeah, absolutely, personality
versus being this perfect robot. It doesn't work. People shut
down in those environments. Well, okay, you also have done
the science of aliens. What the heck? Okay, what is
the science of aliens? We've always been mesmerized. But the
(32:15):
idea of us not being alone. What have you seen
as the patterns and the science behind that.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Well, one of the things that that makes me most
about this is, and I've alluded to this earlier on
in our chat, is how far it goes back. So
I mentioned Lucien, I mean modern sci fi and modern
alien studies usually starts with HG. Wells and the War
(32:44):
of the World's, but even the Word of the Worlds
goes back to eighteen ninety eight. So that's the archetype
of alien invasion.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
But isn't there even from an alien standpoint? Isn't there
even writings and pictures and everything else from early societies?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think those things. I think those things that scientists
like myself in the way, those things are debatable. It
may be an alien, or it may be I don't know,
a pig or I mean, or just a figment of
someone's imagination. I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I don't meant that their imagination is the sci Fi.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It could be, yes, but I don't go into that
kind of stuff my iron mostly. But nonetheless, if you
take Lucian, so he's this, I think Syrian, but he's
within the Greek cultural world. The ancient Greek cultural world
is a Syrian. He's writing a book about one hundred
(33:42):
hundred and fifty eight d It's called a true story.
It's actually a mickey take. Do you Americans use the word?
The phrase mickey take.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Means maybe, I don't. I don't know what it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Is, okay about satire?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Okay, yeah, actually no, I do.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Remember a cartoon where bugs Bunny mentions me taking a mackey.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Okay, Well, I don't know if we satire, I think,
and we want satire. A lot of us do anyways.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Okay, So Lucien's book is partly a satire, but of travelogue,
ancient Greek travelogs and people boasting, Oh, I went to
Africa and I saw an animal with an arm for
a nose, that kind of thing, Right, So he thinks,
all right, I'll get these guys. I'll go one better.
So you're write a travelogue which is a journey at sea.
(34:30):
The ship hits a water spout and is transported to
the moon. So a lot of this stuff is it's
like and I didn't say that. So there's a culture
on the moon. There's a culture on the Sun, which
causes problematics scientifically. But he even goes so far this
is one hundred and fifty eight D. He even goes
so far as to suggest that there is a civilization
(34:51):
of light. Okay, a civilization I'm.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Saying eighty one hundred and fifty eighty. It starts human
creative and sci fi starts the moment almost we can
think and write stuff down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And these lights, by the way in space, which is
somewhere between a couple of constellations, one of which is Plia.
These I think, and these lights are essentially people's lamps
from home, from Earth that there somehow transported there and
have their own existences in another place, which is pretty cosmic.
(35:26):
One hundred and fifty a D.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I was only disappointed he didn't call that place Lampsterdam.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I thought that that's amazing, that that's an intuitive thing,
because so much of our science is starting to go
in that direction. Yeah, how incredible that what fift ad? Yeah,
you know, with portals and all these things where they
really think we can walk through a portal and go
to be in Peru. You know that kind of that's
(35:54):
our future travel is starting to be maybe doable.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, I mean so there's Luci one hundred and fifty eight,
there are some science fiction elements in one thousand and
one Arabian Nights, which is about eight hundred eighty, and
then you've got a gap until what you might call
the Renaissance. So I mentioned earlier Kepler's book of Our
Journey to the Moon. Well, so that's after Copernicus had
(36:21):
suggested that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.
So that got people thinking, then, you know, I've ben
tell that point the Earth just was the center of
the universe, and the Earth wasn't a planet. All the
other planets, including the Sun, believe it, a lot were planets.
But when Copernicus said no, we're going round the Sun,
people started thinking, oh, well, if the Earth is a planet,
(36:43):
then the planets could be like Earth. So there may
be other places where you can live, like Mars or whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Every kind of scientific advancement of thought is a burst
of new.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Thinking, absolutely, absolutely so. And Copernicus and Galilee is one
example with shift in the position of the Earth. Another
example is Darwin that the Darwin's Theory of the Evolution,
which is eighteen fifty nine, he basically comes up with
a mechanism of natural selection which allows creatures to evolve
(37:18):
in time. But that mechanism which he uses a replicator
in our case, it's DNA. That mechanism should be able
to happen on other planets as well as Earth. So,
in other words, evolution will happen in other places. Before Darwin,
if anybody wrote sci fi, but creatures in other worlds,
(37:40):
they basically geezers like us on other planets, right, But
after Darwin, then you've got the proper alien, the proper weird, strange,
psychologically odd alien, no longer necessarily human, may be an
orange gas called Dave. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Different games people's paradigm and what it was that's absolutely human,
like now if she start from a fraud or something.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes, as so Capernitus and Darwin two big paradigm shifts
which enable science fiction about aliens to be written, but
mostly from ariostot long and from the mostly during the
Age of Faith, where the Church was predominant. It wasn't
considered possible of life anywhere other than Earth, you know,
(38:29):
Aristotle refers to it as the unitary Earth. It's the
only place where there's life. So that was a bit
of a bummer. But after that, with the advances and science,
there's this idea that, oh, you know, that might enable
things to evolve elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Well, I think quantum energy is a quantum physics is
putting the science behind spirituality in the woo wu and
it's now there's a whole new avenue that's starting to
open up.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
It's pretty incredible. That's fun. I think it's fun when
we're starting to have real science behind spirituality and what
the heck is that? You know? Well, because I always said,
if something exists, then there's science will eventually be able
to explain it. We just might not understand it yet.
But that doesn't mean it won't because that science isn't
(39:23):
you know when they say that religion and science or
spirituality and science is two different things, I'm like, no,
science is just the explanation of what is, and if
spirituality is part of what is, science will eventually be
able to explain it. We might not be smart enough
to get there, we might not know enough yet, but
if it is the study of what is, then and
(39:44):
if this is, then it will eventually be able.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
To And it doesn't necessarily give you the entire pictures
that I've often thought doing books like the Science of
Love all the science for sex, and you think it's
not necessary, do you know what I mean? Yes, so
the whole picture might not have in a lot of cases.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Well because it's so much broader than what we really think.
But Science of Love would be kind of cool because
it gets that's something we need more of, right, we
need to understand. That would be nice on how do
we aspire to be more loving being? Since that fighting wars.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, that it would be helpful to be mature. Yes,
maybe that's the book the world needs right now, to
be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
That's my point. What you've written over thirty books, right,
so you this is what you do. Can you talk
about some of the other books that you've done?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, let me think I will. I did Science as
Star Trek. What I thought was interesting about that was
I read a paper, quite recent paper in Scientific American
which tried to explain why we hadn't been visited. Okay,
so this is idea. Modern science suggests there are many
earths in the Milky Way, and many earths, many planets
(40:57):
like Earth in the universe as a whole. Talking billions,
they call them Earth analogs, and whenever we find out that,
you know, because when your viewers will be doing a
bit of even innocent stargazing of local stars, they're looking
at stars that we now know have planets in orbit
about them. Okay, even like in ursa major the plow
(41:22):
or big dep I think you may call it over
there or even the closest start what's approxim percent to right,
we've discovered planets going around that too. Okay, So planets
are everywhere, and given there so many stars, like between
one hundred and four hundred thousand million in the Milky
Way alone, there's going to be more planets than that
because most stars have more than one planet. So anyway,
(41:44):
lots and lots of planets, lots of earths. But the
thing is, why haven't they visited this yet? And in
the Star Trek book I talk about the fact that
this research paper compared mutiny on the Bounty the situation
of Earth not being visited by aliens. And this is
(42:04):
to do with Pitcain Island, which is part of an
island archipelago where some islands in the chain had been
visited but others not for some reason or another, which
I thought was interesting. So these vectors associated with travel,
whether it's space travel or ocean go and travel did
this kind of comparison, which I thought was interesting. Then
(42:28):
the interesting thing about Star Trek compared the Star Wars
is Star Trek gives a reason within its universe or
within its galaxy why humans exist throughout the galaxy, whereas
in Star Wars they never bother.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
What was the reason that Star Trek ga I mean,
Star Trek originated in Earth, so that's why. But what
was the reason they were throughout the galaxy?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
And when they find aliens beyond the Earth? Course in
Star Trek, because there's a progenitor race. This happens a
lot in sci fi. There's a progenitor race out there
in space which seeded the galaxy with a humanoid you
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay a little
bit of this, but at least they bothered in one
particular episode they bothered.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Yeah, well, this is fascinating. Where can people watch you
read your books? I know you do interviews and things,
but where can they get your books and learn more
about your work?
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I'm on Amazon dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Did you have a website? Oh?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Just look my name up on Amazon dot com and
you'll find me. There's about well there's about thirty books,
but also different languages publishing, but a dozen different lamages.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
This is so absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for
the work that you do and for digging into this.
I think there's something for everybody. I mean, because you
have all these different topics, whether you're a music person,
a sci fi person, just all these different areas. What
other areas do you get into just everything that you
(44:01):
see in culture?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, basically what if I'm watching something and then the
kind will drop and think, oh, that's not a bad idea.
But because somebody annoyed me about the Beatles, somebody annoyed
me and said they didn't see what the fuss was
about the Beatles, And I thought, okay, I'd better do
a book to explain this, which is a bit of
a long way of going about things. But nonetheless, I'm
candidly writing a science of Assassins Creed the video game.
(44:26):
Oh wow, yeah, so as I thought, oh, video games,
that's something we could do science books about.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Well, the Assassin's Creed really teaches people about history, right,
absolutely fabulous. Yeah, And I was watching and reading about it,
I'm like Wow, there's more history and Assassin's Creed. Then
you would get almost anywhere.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yes, absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
From a different perspective, because you're become the character and
you start to understand the emotion of this.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I was watching a travel program on TV about Florence,
and I'd convinced myself I'd been the Florence on holiday,
and I realized I've been there on an Assassin's Creed.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Oh wow, that's okay, now you're taking me. That's the
idea of being within these video games where you're feeling
like almost like the Star Trek holidayck Well, merge in
this metaverse, being part of some historical thing, where you
can then really understand it at a whole other level
(45:23):
that you couldn't have before. Now. I don't like the
idea of losing our humanity and becoming part of a metaverse,
but it could be a learning tool to understand history
in a way we never understood it before.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I think that's I think that's basically what Assassin's Creed is.
I mean, there's read some great article is about how
it appropriates history. I mean, it's got its own story
about templars and assassins, but that's just really a version
of social class, you know, the way that there've been
social classes throughout history at different times and assassins. That's
(45:58):
just Assassin's Creed's version of it.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
But and that's important thing. It's their version because I mean,
let's take a step back here. Anytime you're immersed in something,
it would still be their version of it, which could
there could be another version that's completely different. I mean,
you got at least level set there. Yeah, but it's
a lot better than just reading a book.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah. Absolutely. There's some major scientists in Assassin's Creed as well,
So Compernicus is in the Darwin is in there, and
so on and so forth. Leonardo da Vinci is in there.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, they hire some of the best people to work
on it. Some people say that Assassin's Creed was actually
an intelligence operation. Oh yeah, did you find that out?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Well, I should be looking it up.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Now, yeah, because it's too good and they were programming
people to understand things differently.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
Oh right, there's an alien race right at the beginning.
There's a first civilization alien race as in Star Trek,
there's one in Assassin's Creed that seeds Homo sapiens on
home and beyond Titalas at the very beginning, and then
we've been arguing ever since uponently that would expense Well,
(47:07):
we argue.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
No matter what. But yeah, that's what mean, that's why
they're saying, it's there's a lot more to Assassin's Creed.
When I started looking at this as I was pretty
impressed at how deep it went. And like you were saying,
they have scientists, they have political leaders. It's not just
a bunch of guys curating a video game. There's a
deep story behind this that takes a lot more intelligence.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I've been very happy playing Assassin's Creed when the sun's
going done and I'm walking the streets of Venice. It's
very composing. Yeah, it takes you away from yourself.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
Yeah, and can you imagine then taking that and then
immersing yourself into it like a star trek holidack in
an Assassin's Creed type environment. I mean, that's where things
are probably going to go, is we'll get to a
point where we can be completely immersed in this world.
You think of that, I mean, I don't know that.
(48:02):
I mean it would be incredibly entertaining, But what would
that do? There's always pros and cons right double edged
swords to all these things.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Absolutely, as with AI, exactly, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Okay, fascinating. Thank you so much for joining the program.
People need to look and figure out your books. There's
over thirty of them and you're going to be keep
cranking them out now that you're retired, and now you
can just explore and do whatever you want to do.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Thank you, Thank you so much for coming on the program.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
You are listening to the Fringe Radio Network franradionetwork dot com.
You are listening to the Frane Radio Network franradionetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
That's absolutely spot on. One of my favorite facts about
the Beatles. I mean, there are so many firsts, but
you take the example of Sergeant Pepper is thought to
be one of the first concept albums. For good or bad,
because some of them can be a little bit over
the top. But when that experimental kind of music you
might call progressive music started Sergeant Peppers about sixty seven.
(00:52):
I remember reading between sixty eight and seventy two, record
company executives didn't know what they were doing because they
had no idea what would sell next, because creativity was
to the foe, and creativity was like the watch word,
and they were the very progressive bands coming up between
those two years. In those four years.
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(02:14):
Welcome to Business Game Changers. I'm Sarah Westall. I have
Mark Brake Company in the program. He is a retired
professor of communications, the science of communications. He's written over
thirty books on the science of communications. But he's focused
on aliens. He's focused on the Beatles. He focus his
new book is on Assassin's Creed and we're going to
(02:36):
talk about a lot of this and then get into
I really appreciated this conversation because it was more of
a conversation than I have. Most of my shows are
a little bit more conversation than interview. This one really
was a great conversation one of those, and I got
to talk about a lot of my own thinking on
some of these subjects, and I hope you can appreciate this.
(02:59):
We're going to talk about the science of creativity, where
creativity comes from, and how you see it from a
historical standpoint in film and in movies and in video games,
and he's an expert in this area. I think you're
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some insight on kind of today's world. But before we
(03:22):
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(03:44):
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(04:07):
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(05:37):
that I have with Mark Break. Hi. Mark, welcome to
the program. Hi, thank you, Yeah, glad you're here. You
are a retired professor of the science of communications. What
the hell you'ing at? And what does that mean? So
people understand that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Means the way in which sciences, well, most people in
the world get their diet of science, if that doesn't
sound too restrictive. They get their diet of science through
popular culture, so through film and through fiction. So my
job always was to look at film and fiction and
say a little bit about the way the kind of
(06:20):
science that's communicated through through culture.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I guess, and what do you mean by science? Is
it a pattern that you see patterns in film and
entertainment that people enjoy, or patterns in the way that
it affects people, or how communication of science to the
masses is done, or what is it? What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's the third one. It's what kind of science is
in James Bond, for instance, was one of the books
I did. So James Bond is often associated with just
spy stuff, but if you look carefully at James Bond movies,
most of the nemesy of Jim's Bond, most of the
villains actually have got a very strong sci fi element
(07:05):
to them. They usually mad men, almost always men, of course,
mad men who want to take over the world. So
I particularly did a book on Jim's Bond which I
called spi Fi. It's a little bit spy and it's
a little bit sci fi. So what is the science
in those books, like the Science of Gold for instance,
and how they communicated? What does it say about science
(07:28):
in society?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
What is it If you were to make a you know,
synapsis of that, what would you say that was what.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
The Bond stuff? I mean, what would you can trace
the evolution of society's infatuation or otherwise with science by
looking at the way that the film's evolved, so pretty
low scale at the beginning, but it tends to get
(07:58):
it tends towards the Bond villains are more and more
like oligarchs. There's a lot of those around at the moment, right,
So it tends to be more and more oligarchs as
time wears on through the Bond movies.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So it's more like the patterns of what people and
culture think is evil at this point.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So well, in that particular case, yeah, but if you
take Star Wars, I mean the very beginning of the
Star Wars franchise, the first movie, you know, the viewer
sees that we're on a planet which has an orbitgrown
two stars. That's mid nineteen seventy seven. At the time,
nobody was sure if a planet could be an orbit
ground two stars at the same time. It was only
(08:43):
much later that we found out that that was possible,
and we've since discovered planets and orbitgrown two stars. So
and also, you know, Star Wars takes place in another
galaxy a long long time ago. Is that possible? How
come the humans in the other galaxy? Is that a thing? Mean? Yeah,
it's all those kinds of questions. But people want to
(09:03):
maybe look a little bit deeper into their enjoyment of
the movies, and you.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
See science as being something people really care about. Is
it you know, the masses care about it? Or are
they fascinated by it? But they want to look at
it from an entertainment standpoint? Because good, well.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
What I think the second thing you said, I mean,
whether they cared about it or not, it's a good question.
I think a lot of them are probably put off
science when they were in school. And yet when you
think about it, if you look at the on Wikipedia
at the top fifty gross and highest grossing movies of
all time, you'd be surprised how many of those are
(09:42):
science and nerdy? How many of them? Yeah, because you know,
there's always this depiction of sci fi people being nerdy
and geeky, but actually the top fifty movies is almost
well a lot or over fifty percent of them as
sci fi movies. I'm talking stuff like you know, the
Marvel Universe, the DC Universe, Avatar, all this stuff, the
(10:04):
Star Wars stuff. The Honey Potter is kind of related
sci fi because it's science fantasy, do you know. I mean,
so all that stuff, I think people are more interested
in the ramifications of science. Always scigns can take us
than they think that they are, because after all, Star
Wars is in a way about space travel.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
That's right, well, and I guess the creativity of that.
I like the fact you said nerdy because I always
said that I liked what I'm doing Now. I liked
it when it was nerdy, before all the people came
into it and the math I started getting into it
because it was so much more pure, And now I
still try to stay true to what I'm doing. That's
(10:43):
why someone like you is on my program. But it's
changed a lot, but they still like that nerdy element,
but they want it more glamorized or something.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
They're certainly very glamorous, isn't it. I mean, I think
that CGI has enabled as books of the imagination, which
science fiction is very much associated with imagination, of course,
and creativity and other worlds and other dimensions, and CGI
has enabled those things to be visualized on the screen,
which is what's happened in the last generation of movies.
(11:16):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And you know I used to back in the college days,
I've had deep conversations with people, deep but conversations with
people that the people who really forge new science, new creativity,
new frontiers in anything is a combination a lot of
times of creativity and science background.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Absolutely. I mean in the case of the Beatles, what's
interesting about that that that's just the latest book that
I've done. In the case of the Beatles, their lack
of formal training in music, their lack of formal their
education is what made them creative.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think so too. And I taught entrepreneurship in a
university and and one of the things that when I
was studying it was I noticed that the ones who
are the most successful at being entrepreneurs aren't business students.
They're artists.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I icknowagine the absolutely the.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Artists are because why are the artists because they're not
confined in their structured way of thinking. Yeah, and they're
solving problems from a creative standpoint. They don't know what
they don't know, so they go and they just figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah. I'm really pleased you've asked me this, because even
though you would have thought it was a very difficult
fit combining the Beatles with science fiction, what you've just
said to me is made me realize that that's exactly
the case. What does science fiction do that? Science doesn't.
Science is held back by the parameters of science, the
rules and laws of science. You have to stay within them. Well,
(12:50):
science fiction doesn't care about that. Science fiction just wants
to do the creativity associate or whatever narrative. They want
to know, what's it like living on Mars or whatever
it might be. So there's a similarity there. The Beatles
are untrained and formally untrained in music, so they go
with the creativity. Same with science sci fi. Sci fi
doesn't bother about the rules of science. It might, you know,
(13:12):
sometimes think oh, we'd better make sure a thing shoot straight,
not bent, or whatever it might be. But nonetheless they've
got that same disregard for convention, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Well, and that's why I think there was so much
more creativity in art, or at least in music back
in the seventies and eighties maybe sixties, seventies, eighties still
was there, and then it started to get really commercialized,
and you just don't see the same creativity that you
saw back then.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's absolutely spot on one of my favorite facts about
the Beatles. I mean, there are so many firsts, but
you take the example of Sergeant Pepper is thought to
be one of the first concept albums, for good or bad,
because some of them can be a little bit over
the top. But when that experimental kind of music you
might call progressive music started Sergeant Peppers about sixty seven.
(14:05):
I remember reading between sixty eight and seventy two, record
company executives didn't know what they were doing because they
had no idea what would sell next, because creativity was
to the fore, and creativity was like the watchwork, and
they were just very progressive bands coming up between those
two years. In those four years, any many many things
(14:28):
sold that wouldn't have sold earlier, and wouldn't have sold
since you know, bands like Oh in Britain we have
very weird bands like the Incredible String Band, and they're very,
very quirky and very odd. And those bands made it,
and I don't think they would have had any other time.
It became more formal as than commercial after that.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, like led Zeppelin. We just watched a documentary on them,
and they were just this creative force and they somehow,
you know, they were able to negotiate a contract where
they could maintain their creativity. Would never have gotten that
contract today, and so much of their music was just
them screwing around, coming up with stuff they probably didn't
(15:08):
say say this is they weren't say they were screwing around.
But that's part of the creative process.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
As you're just I think you're right. I mean the
fact that the interesting link between the Beatles and led
Zeppelin is both of the bands are excellent examples of
British people copying American people and remixing American music with
a British twist. I mean, the Beatles are far more
(15:33):
British than led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin almost you know, Okay,
there's a little bit of a mix there, but I
think they're more true to the event the roots of
the American music that they play led Zepplin, because there's
obviously derived from blues, a very loud electric blues. In
that particular case, David Bowie said something very interesting about
British rock music. He said, the British do everything with
(15:57):
a kind of smug air, smug self satisfied there. They
know that rock music doesn't come from their soul. Rock
music is American. Nonetheless, they try it on for size
and give it a little bit of a twist. So
there's a lot of if you think about the preening
of Mick Jagger, or the comedy camp of Elton John,
(16:19):
or the like the mop top shaking the heads of
the Beatles. It's all a little bit tongue in cheek
and when you see people. There's a great guy on
an American and YouTuber called Rick Biatto who's a record producer,
and when he was looking at the Get Back documentary
that was out a couple of years back, I can't
remember how long it is now, he said he was
amazed how much the Beatles were goofing about. How much
(16:42):
goofing about there was, you know that kind of creativity thing.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
That's where the spark is is when you're just goofing
around and you're not absolute structure.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes. In fact, the Beatles producer George Martin, before he
became famously the producer of Beatles and of course one
of the most famous record producers you know, I think
he started that trend with the record producer was just
as famous as the band that they were producing. Before
he produced the Beatles, he produced comedy records and novelty records,
(17:15):
so he was used to putting soundscapes, special effects and
sound effects in the backdrop Togain make a kind of
sound collage to enhance the recording, so and not lend
a lot as well towards the creativity of it. So
it's an interesting and very interesting question about the creativity thing.
The lack of formal training in the Beatles and in
(17:38):
sci Fi that lends itself to what they do.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
But do you know that this is statistically accurate that
most inventions come most innovations that forge of field forward
come from with from outside a field, because once you're
inside a specific area, you you're locked in a paradigm,
and paradigm changes come from outside the field because they're
(18:05):
not locked in that paradigm, they're also blocked. You know.
People don't want to hear it because it's not part
of it. But that's where the majority of the significant
advancements in any field usually come from outside the field.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well, that's interesting as well from the point of view
the Beatles the Beatless from outside. Really they do American music,
but they're from outside America and you know what I mean,
they come in into America with a British twist. So
that's also an interesting competison.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah. Well, one thing though, I think it's double edged sword,
I'm going to talk about it from like a healthcare
or some other or big tech or something like that.
That And this is one of the themes that I've
been saying, is that just because you can creatively think
about something doesn't mean it's true either. So it's like
this double edged sword. Creativity creates these advancements and these
(18:53):
paradigm changes, but the same time, just because you can
creatively think that something's true doesn't make it true either.
I'm dealing with people who like careers just because you
can creatively think about it, it's nonslarly true. And so
I get pushback on some of my shows based on that.
I'm like, no, that you still need the effects behind that.
(19:14):
So it's kind of an interesting phenomena where creativity is
what pushes fields forward. But yet you've got to have
some self checks too when it comes to hard science
that it's actually true.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, and in fact, you just made me think about
many of them. Meetings of space agencies like NASA and
the ESA, when they have brainstorm meetings, they often invite
science fiction authors because science fiction authors are used to
(19:49):
thinking outside the box about something or other, so they'll
use them as part of that meeting the sundbox area
to think about missions of the futu and different ways
of going about these things, I guess.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
But that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Go ahead, indeed, Yeah, well they still, as you said,
they're still constrained by the facts of the matter. It
may not be possible to do certain things like fly
to the moon or something. But yeah. The first one
of the first alien fiction stories written in the English
lamb and not actually it was written in German. Johannes Kaepler,
the firms German mathematician, wrote a book in the sixteen hundreds,
(20:28):
would you believe because early science fiction goes a long
way back, goes through the Arabian nights at science fiction
in it. And there was a Greek sat the rest
living at about one hundred AD, of course, called I'll come
back to him all of a sudden forgotten his name Lucian. Sorry,
Lucian wrote a book in about one hundred AD which
is basically about a journey to the moon. But in
(20:51):
Johannas Kapler's book, people get the mean he can't be
bothered to think up a propulsion method, so he just
says his protagonist just flies you know it's a little
bit tricky for most people, but basically then but the.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Whole thing is that it shows Okay, the creativity can
get us thinking about the possibility, but we have to
have some structuring to come back and say what the
facts are. But those facts can change over time to
what you think is possible and maybe, but at this
point we don't have it, so we have to. It's
kind of a tug of war, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Absolutely. In fact, Serrano de Bergerac in the sixteen hundreds
wrote a science fiction story in which he did come
up with a method of propulsion. Again, there was another
off Earth story, and our method of propulsion was essentially
what we know called the ramjet. Who's taking a nozzle
(21:51):
and pushing a lot of air through it very quickly.
And Serana came up with the idea of that's how
you would if you could do that forcefully, you'd be
able to take off the Earth. After all, the Earth
is only about twenty Space is only about sixty miles away.
It's only sixty miles into space, sorry, sixty miles in
the atmosphere then you're in space. So many places in
(22:12):
the US, many many places are closer to space than
the out of the sea.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Which I guess if you think about it that way.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah. No. In fact, in Britain most places are quite
close to the coast, so we're not that particularly, do
you know.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, you're not like Denver, that's high in the mountains.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, exactly, So Denver's no doubt they get closer to
space than is to the sea.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But yeah, yeah, how interesting is that? Okay, So why
did you get into the science like you did the
science of the Beatles? How did you become fascinated with
these patterns that affect people?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Okay, Well, I'm very old, that's the first thing. My
mother old, very kind. My mother recently passed at the
age of ninety, and I was looking through some stuff
in the attic, some stuff that had been in the
family home for many years, and I discovered a little
news book of that I'd written when I was in
(23:11):
what you might call kindergarten or first grade, a count
remember what do you call? Anyway, I was young, I
think it was about six or seven, and I'd noticed,
to my delight that one of the stories in this
news book that I'd written at that tended age was
a story about the Beatles there was only spelling was atrocious,
by the way, so much for me being an author.
Spelling was atrocious. But I had drawn the Beatles in
(23:33):
a very kind of crude way, and I was proud
to see that I got Paul McCartney's left handed rather
than right handed. But that made me think about how
far back in my life the Beatles go, and how
far back in British culture generally speaking, the Beatles go.
(23:54):
A lot of people in the world have an individual
personal relationship with the Beatles, but there's a relationship that
we have as a culture. I think in the story
of the twentieth century. And I noticed, for instance, in
the opening ceremony of the London Olympics in twenty twelve,
when they told the story of Britain, which of course
(24:14):
began with the Industrial Revolution and so on and so forth.
The Beatles were a very strong part of the coming
of age of Britain in the way that that was told.
Can't remember the name of Danny Wat's his face, the
film director had directed the opening ceremony. I can't remember
sayning now, But anyway.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
People look at s well, it is kind of interesting
because the Beatles are there. They had so many top songs,
and they're still catchy today. When you listen to them,
you can you still like them. So what is it about?
How did they figure that out? I mean the genius
of I think that kind of genius comes. It's inspired
(24:55):
from outside. It just some it comes to you. But
you saw a pattern with their music, what would what would?
How would you encapsulate their pattern?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I think it's a lot to do with well, it's
a lot to do with their being influenced by American music.
There was a lot in the fifties. I think there
was the idea of the invention of youth as well
to a certain extent where oh, there's a great cote
by John Lennon. I think I'm probably not going to
be able to remember it very well, but John Lennon
(25:29):
talking about the fact that they were the first generation
that didn't go to war. They were the first generation
that didn't join an army. I thought was interesting. Isn't
that quite sadly late? If I excuse me to seck
it's right in the Yeah, the Beatles on the Elk
were created by the vacuum of non conscription. We were
(25:51):
the army that never was. We were the generation that
were allowed to live. And I think, wow, that's quite
deep live because yeah, if you compare that well people are.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Going to war that you can unpack that and saying
allowed to live, but people who died in war. But
they also when you go to war, there's a part
of your soul that dies.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, absolutely, And there's there's there's a famous in Europe.
There's a number of famous poets World War One poets
that died in World War One. A tremenous waste of
life of like very creative people. But I think it's
to do with that period. A lot of the success
in terms of what you might call the brand of
(26:35):
the Beatles, is being suggested that the Beatles came to
America in the direct wake of Kennedy's assassination when the
nation was still in the morning, because Kennedy was assassinated
in November. By February, the Beatles were on the Ed
Sullivan Show, seeing It to seventy three million people, and
(26:56):
modern Scorsese's Beatles in sixty four, that documentary that was
recently on Apple or whatever platform it was. There were
people on that, including the film directed David Lynch, who
was talking about the fact that it felt like a
reaction or like a release to the morning of Kennedy's assassination,
(27:18):
like you know, youthful, revolutionary, elam and joy of this
new music as a reaction to what went before, as
you know. I mean, it sounds like plausible, but so
many people have said it that people were there at
the time. I thought, I think, do you.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Think that we're primed for something else? I mean, we
came out of COVID, We're coming out of all these
wars we're having. I don't think there's been a time
in history where we've had more turmoil than we have
right now, and usually that creates a burst of creativity.
But yet we have this commercial control structure over our
creative nature. Do you think there's this conflict that's at
(27:59):
hand right now?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I think there probably normally is a lot of conflict
in the world, and maybe what's going on is technical.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
But what I'm saying is there a conflict of this
burst of creativity needing to come out, but there's this
commercial control over it. How do you think that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's a good that's a good conte It's difficult, isn't it?
Because all these staged reality TV shows associated with talent
that you get both in your country and in mind,
a very controlled product is completely different to I understand
that the Beatles played one thousand, two hundred live gigs
(28:38):
before they got a record deal. May that's a huge
number in Britain and in Hamburg in Germany, so they
really learned their trade before. You know, it's the complete
opposite of just going on a talent TV show. You're
like in that manufactured way that you have now, so
it's a ground swell, almost an organic.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
It's the organic creativity that's lost. You know. One of
the things that I taught. I taught at a business
school and entrepreneurship and different things, and one of the
things that I taught was that depending on the type
of business that you have, you have to bed you
have a certain amount of structure. The more creative the
(29:23):
business is, the less structure you want or need. I mean,
you can't have it otherwise you kill the creativity all
the way to something like insurance or finance, where it's
a highly structured business, so the process has to be
you have to be hands off. It's kind of like
the way that they manage doctors is too structure they're
(29:43):
not treating them like professional there's a creativity around any
kind of professional practice, and they're trying to force a
very structured and it's just killing the industry. And it's
like camorrhaging everywhere. It's you can see it in that
the industry is collapsing, and it's the same with the
music industry. They're trying to put these business people want
(30:05):
to always insert the strict process or on something that's
going to die on the vine if you do it.
But what's going to happen is it's going to burst
out somewhere else, I think is what's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
That's an interesting question about constraints on creativity I was
reading about. There was an interview with Paul McCartney when
he was talking about why a Beatles song so memorable,
and he said they didn't have any technology to record
their voices if they were on tour in a tour bus,
(30:36):
they didn't have even a tape recorder to record their voices.
And you know, like you might even on your smartphone today.
You know, you think of a little ditty and you
record it. None of that, And he says that's why
he thought the songs were more memorable, more melodic, because
they had to remember them tomorrow to write them down
when they had a spare five minutes to do so.
(30:58):
But as these days, wherever you are, however throwaway, the
idea might be you can record it straight away, it's
not necessarily a good thing.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Or you can also apply tools to it. Now, the
AI tools and the creative you know, the AI creates
your creativity, but it's still not creative in a lot
of way. Yes, is just inherently not creative. People think
it's an illusion of creativity.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But it's not that. Record producer Rick Piotto are remembering
analyzing with modern tools analyzing a led Zeppelin track and
counting the beats in the bar and pointing out how
many mistakes there work because led Zeppelin effectively playing it live,
and that that is more human to the ear than
(31:44):
synthesized computer generated music, because the mistakes are kind of quirky, the.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
All to it they add to it. Yeah, absolutely, personality
versus being this perfect robot. It doesn't work. People shut
down in those environments. Well, okay, you also have done
the science of aliens. What the heck? Okay, what is
the science of aliens? We've always been mesmerized. But the
(32:15):
idea of us not being alone. What have you seen
as the patterns and the science behind that.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Well, one of the things that that makes me most
about this is, and I've alluded to this earlier on
in our chat, is how far it goes back. So
I mentioned Lucien, I mean modern sci fi and modern
alien studies usually starts with HG. Wells and the War
(32:44):
of the World's, but even the Word of the Worlds
goes back to eighteen ninety eight. So that's the archetype
of alien invasion.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
But isn't there even from an alien standpoint? Isn't there
even writings and pictures and everything else from early societies?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think those things. I think those things that scientists
like myself in the way, those things are debatable. It
may be an alien, or it may be I don't know,
a pig or I mean, or just a figment of
someone's imagination. I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I don't meant that their imagination is the sci Fi.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It could be, yes, but I don't go into that
kind of stuff my iron mostly. But nonetheless, if you
take Lucian, so he's this, I think Syrian, but he's
within the Greek cultural world. The ancient Greek cultural world
is a Syrian. He's writing a book about one hundred
(33:42):
hundred and fifty eight d It's called a true story.
It's actually a mickey take. Do you Americans use the word?
The phrase mickey take.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Means maybe, I don't. I don't know what it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Is, okay about satire?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Okay, yeah, actually no, I do.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Remember a cartoon where bugs Bunny mentions me taking a mackey.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Okay, Well, I don't know if we satire, I think,
and we want satire. A lot of us do anyways.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Okay, So Lucien's book is partly a satire, but of travelogue,
ancient Greek travelogs and people boasting, Oh, I went to
Africa and I saw an animal with an arm for
a nose, that kind of thing, Right, So he thinks,
all right, I'll get these guys. I'll go one better.
So you're write a travelogue which is a journey at sea.
(34:30):
The ship hits a water spout and is transported to
the moon. So a lot of this stuff is it's
like and I didn't say that. So there's a culture
on the moon. There's a culture on the Sun, which
causes problematics scientifically. But he even goes so far this
is one hundred and fifty eight D. He even goes
so far as to suggest that there is a civilization
(34:51):
of light. Okay, a civilization I'm.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Saying eighty one hundred and fifty eighty. It starts human
creative and sci fi starts the moment almost we can
think and write stuff down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And these lights, by the way in space, which is
somewhere between a couple of constellations, one of which is Plia.
These I think, and these lights are essentially people's lamps
from home, from Earth that there somehow transported there and
have their own existences in another place, which is pretty cosmic.
(35:26):
One hundred and fifty a D.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I was only disappointed he didn't call that place Lampsterdam.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I thought that that's amazing, that that's an intuitive thing,
because so much of our science is starting to go
in that direction. Yeah, how incredible that what fift ad? Yeah,
you know, with portals and all these things where they
really think we can walk through a portal and go
to be in Peru. You know that kind of that's
(35:54):
our future travel is starting to be maybe doable.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, I mean so there's Luci one hundred and fifty eight,
there are some science fiction elements in one thousand and
one Arabian Nights, which is about eight hundred eighty, and
then you've got a gap until what you might call
the Renaissance. So I mentioned earlier Kepler's book of Our
Journey to the Moon. Well, so that's after Copernicus had
(36:21):
suggested that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.
So that got people thinking, then, you know, I've ben
tell that point the Earth just was the center of
the universe, and the Earth wasn't a planet. All the
other planets, including the Sun, believe it, a lot were planets.
But when Copernicus said no, we're going round the Sun,
people started thinking, oh, well, if the Earth is a planet,
(36:43):
then the planets could be like Earth. So there may
be other places where you can live, like Mars or whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Every kind of scientific advancement of thought is a burst
of new.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Thinking, absolutely, absolutely so. And Copernicus and Galilee is one
example with shift in the position of the Earth. Another
example is Darwin that the Darwin's Theory of the Evolution,
which is eighteen fifty nine, he basically comes up with
a mechanism of natural selection which allows creatures to evolve
(37:18):
in time. But that mechanism which he uses a replicator
in our case, it's DNA. That mechanism should be able
to happen on other planets as well as Earth. So,
in other words, evolution will happen in other places. Before Darwin,
if anybody wrote sci fi, but creatures in other worlds,
(37:40):
they basically geezers like us on other planets, right, But
after Darwin, then you've got the proper alien, the proper weird, strange,
psychologically odd alien, no longer necessarily human, may be an
orange gas called Dave. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Different games people's paradigm and what it was that's absolutely human,
like now if she start from a fraud or something.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes, as so Capernitus and Darwin two big paradigm shifts
which enable science fiction about aliens to be written, but
mostly from ariostot long and from the mostly during the
Age of Faith, where the Church was predominant. It wasn't
considered possible of life anywhere other than Earth, you know,
(38:29):
Aristotle refers to it as the unitary Earth. It's the
only place where there's life. So that was a bit
of a bummer. But after that, with the advances and science,
there's this idea that, oh, you know, that might enable
things to evolve elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Well, I think quantum energy is a quantum physics is
putting the science behind spirituality in the woo wu and
it's now there's a whole new avenue that's starting to
open up.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
It's pretty incredible. That's fun. I think it's fun when
we're starting to have real science behind spirituality and what
the heck is that? You know? Well, because I always said,
if something exists, then there's science will eventually be able
to explain it. We just might not understand it yet.
But that doesn't mean it won't because that science isn't
(39:23):
you know when they say that religion and science or
spirituality and science is two different things, I'm like, no,
science is just the explanation of what is, and if
spirituality is part of what is, science will eventually be
able to explain it. We might not be smart enough
to get there, we might not know enough yet, but
if it is the study of what is, then and
(39:44):
if this is, then it will eventually be able.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
To And it doesn't necessarily give you the entire pictures
that I've often thought doing books like the Science of
Love all the science for sex, and you think it's
not necessary, do you know what I mean? Yes, so
the whole picture might not have in a lot of cases.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Well because it's so much broader than what we really think.
But Science of Love would be kind of cool because
it gets that's something we need more of, right, we
need to understand. That would be nice on how do
we aspire to be more loving being? Since that fighting wars.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, that it would be helpful to be mature. Yes,
maybe that's the book the world needs right now, to
be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
That's my point. What you've written over thirty books, right,
so you this is what you do. Can you talk
about some of the other books that you've done?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, let me think I will. I did Science as
Star Trek. What I thought was interesting about that was
I read a paper, quite recent paper in Scientific American
which tried to explain why we hadn't been visited. Okay,
so this is idea. Modern science suggests there are many
earths in the Milky Way, and many earths, many planets
(40:57):
like Earth in the universe as a whole. Talking billions,
they call them Earth analogs, and whenever we find out that,
you know, because when your viewers will be doing a
bit of even innocent stargazing of local stars, they're looking
at stars that we now know have planets in orbit
about them. Okay, even like in ursa major the plow
(41:22):
or big dep I think you may call it over
there or even the closest start what's approxim percent to right,
we've discovered planets going around that too. Okay, So planets
are everywhere, and given there so many stars, like between
one hundred and four hundred thousand million in the Milky
Way alone, there's going to be more planets than that
because most stars have more than one planet. So anyway,
(41:44):
lots and lots of planets, lots of earths. But the
thing is, why haven't they visited this yet? And in
the Star Trek book I talk about the fact that
this research paper compared mutiny on the Bounty the situation
of Earth not being visited by aliens. And this is
(42:04):
to do with Pitcain Island, which is part of an
island archipelago where some islands in the chain had been
visited but others not for some reason or another, which
I thought was interesting. So these vectors associated with travel,
whether it's space travel or ocean go and travel did
this kind of comparison, which I thought was interesting. Then
(42:28):
the interesting thing about Star Trek compared the Star Wars
is Star Trek gives a reason within its universe or
within its galaxy why humans exist throughout the galaxy, whereas
in Star Wars they never bother.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
What was the reason that Star Trek ga I mean,
Star Trek originated in Earth, so that's why. But what
was the reason they were throughout the galaxy?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
And when they find aliens beyond the Earth? Course in
Star Trek, because there's a progenitor race. This happens a
lot in sci fi. There's a progenitor race out there
in space which seeded the galaxy with a humanoid you
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay a little
bit of this, but at least they bothered in one
particular episode they bothered.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Yeah, well, this is fascinating. Where can people watch you
read your books? I know you do interviews and things,
but where can they get your books and learn more
about your work?
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I'm on Amazon dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Did you have a website? Oh?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Just look my name up on Amazon dot com and
you'll find me. There's about well there's about thirty books,
but also different languages publishing, but a dozen different lamages.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
This is so absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for
the work that you do and for digging into this.
I think there's something for everybody. I mean, because you
have all these different topics, whether you're a music person,
a sci fi person, just all these different areas. What
other areas do you get into just everything that you
(44:01):
see in culture?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, basically what if I'm watching something and then the
kind will drop and think, oh, that's not a bad idea.
But because somebody annoyed me about the Beatles, somebody annoyed
me and said they didn't see what the fuss was
about the Beatles, And I thought, okay, I'd better do
a book to explain this, which is a bit of
a long way of going about things. But nonetheless, I'm
candidly writing a science of Assassins Creed the video game.
(44:26):
Oh wow, yeah, so as I thought, oh, video games,
that's something we could do science books about.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Well, the Assassin's Creed really teaches people about history, right,
absolutely fabulous. Yeah, And I was watching and reading about it,
I'm like Wow, there's more history and Assassin's Creed. Then
you would get almost anywhere.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yes, absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
From a different perspective, because you're become the character and
you start to understand the emotion of this.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I was watching a travel program on TV about Florence,
and I'd convinced myself I'd been the Florence on holiday,
and I realized I've been there on an Assassin's Creed.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Oh wow, that's okay, now you're taking me. That's the
idea of being within these video games where you're feeling
like almost like the Star Trek holidayck Well, merge in
this metaverse, being part of some historical thing, where you
can then really understand it at a whole other level
(45:23):
that you couldn't have before. Now. I don't like the
idea of losing our humanity and becoming part of a metaverse,
but it could be a learning tool to understand history
in a way we never understood it before.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I think that's I think that's basically what Assassin's Creed is.
I mean, there's read some great article is about how
it appropriates history. I mean, it's got its own story
about templars and assassins, but that's just really a version
of social class, you know, the way that there've been
social classes throughout history at different times and assassins. That's
(45:58):
just Assassin's Creed's version of it.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
But and that's important thing. It's their version because I mean,
let's take a step back here. Anytime you're immersed in something,
it would still be their version of it, which could
there could be another version that's completely different. I mean,
you got at least level set there. Yeah, but it's
a lot better than just reading a book.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah. Absolutely. There's some major scientists in Assassin's Creed as well,
So Compernicus is in the Darwin is in there, and
so on and so forth. Leonardo da Vinci is in there.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, they hire some of the best people to work
on it. Some people say that Assassin's Creed was actually
an intelligence operation. Oh yeah, did you find that out?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Well, I should be looking it up.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Now, yeah, because it's too good and they were programming
people to understand things differently.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
Oh right, there's an alien race right at the beginning.
There's a first civilization alien race as in Star Trek,
there's one in Assassin's Creed that seeds Homo sapiens on
home and beyond Titalas at the very beginning, and then
we've been arguing ever since uponently that would expense Well,
(47:07):
we argue.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
No matter what. But yeah, that's what mean, that's why
they're saying, it's there's a lot more to Assassin's Creed.
When I started looking at this as I was pretty
impressed at how deep it went. And like you were saying,
they have scientists, they have political leaders. It's not just
a bunch of guys curating a video game. There's a
deep story behind this that takes a lot more intelligence.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I've been very happy playing Assassin's Creed when the sun's
going done and I'm walking the streets of Venice. It's
very composing. Yeah, it takes you away from yourself.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
Yeah, and can you imagine then taking that and then
immersing yourself into it like a star trek holidack in
an Assassin's Creed type environment. I mean, that's where things
are probably going to go, is we'll get to a
point where we can be completely immersed in this world.
You think of that, I mean, I don't know that.
(48:02):
I mean it would be incredibly entertaining, But what would
that do? There's always pros and cons right double edged
swords to all these things.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Absolutely, as with AI, exactly, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Okay, fascinating. Thank you so much for joining the program.
People need to look and figure out your books. There's
over thirty of them and you're going to be keep
cranking them out now that you're retired, and now you
can just explore and do whatever you want to do.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Thank you, Thank you so much for coming on the program.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
You are listening to the Fringe Radio Network franradionetwork dot com.
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