December 5, 2025 • 65 mins
Tombstone, Arizona: The town too tough to die! It was the site of the famous shootout at the O.K. Corral. Most have seen the movie or heard the story. But, was it the true story? Were there really heros and villains? Was the press honest about what happened? Let's look into this historic moment, try to figure out what really happened and what we can learn from it.
Email: downtherh@protonmail.com
Email: downtherh@protonmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
do you.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Have the app? It's the best way to listen to
the Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
It's safe and you don't have to log in to
use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
and it sounds beautiful.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com right at the
top of the page.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I know, slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Hey, welcome everybody, NWCC radio dot com Channel ones down
the rabbit Hole.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
I'm Big D and I'm Brandon. It's good to have
everybody along.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Thirty seconds sometimes can seem like a long time, and
other times, of course, it goes in the blink of
an eye. But the thirty seconds that we're going to
talk about on today's program has spawned legends, legacy, all
kind of rumors and stories of history that we.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Have to unpack.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yes, so before we get into it, I want to
remind you that you can email us at down the
rh at ProtonMail dot com. Down the r to ProtonMail
dot com and of course thank you to Fringe Radio Network.
We appreciate those guys, and you can always check us
out on their app.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Highly recommend that.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Yes, if you like what we do and like our show,
you're definitely gonna like what's on Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
So on my last Midweek I talked about a road
trip that I was on last week. One of the
stops which is one of my favorites. I love going there,
have been there several times is Tombstone, Arizona, And one
of my favorite movies of all time is Tombstone, the
I'll just say the more modern one, although I guess
(02:38):
it's old now. Yeah, but it's the one with Val
Kilmer and all star cast, amazing cast Sam Elliott.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
Oh yeah, it's an amazing cast. And what's funny too,
is like when you were talking about it, I literally like,
when I was in South Carolina one of the nights
going to bed, this is Tombstone's in the movie that
came on and I sat and watched it because it's
one of those movies if it comes on tvlatch it
because I love that movie absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I love westerns and a lot of people have different
aspects of history that they really delve into. So some
really love World War two, Civil War, some love history
as far as the world history and so forth. I
love Western history in the United States. Yes, it's one
of the things that my dad passed on to me.
(03:25):
He was really big into it, So I think I
was just born into it, I guess. But being in Tombstone,
every time I go there, I learn something new, and
I'm amazed at how many people just accept at face
value the story that has been told about Tombstone and
(03:48):
the Ok Corral gunfight. Now you say, well, you know,
what does this have to do with conspiracies and what
does this have to do with kind of your overall
theme of your show. What we're gonna learn today is
that no matter how circumstances and how technology and how
things change around us in the world, some things never change. Yeah,
(04:14):
what we're going to find out today as we roll
through this scenario is a lot of things that are
applicable and that we should all keep in mind about
our current state. And we've mentioned this before. History is
written by the winners, and so you get a one
(04:35):
sided view most of the time of how things went down.
There always has to be a hero, a villain, a
shape shifter, you have to have surprises, There has to
be an arc, there has to be some sort of
trauma or emergency that needs to be overcome. These are
(04:57):
all consistent in especially Western world storytelling.
Speaker 6 (05:03):
Well, I mean they're really consistent and a lot of
storytelling because I mean, like the story I just did
on the Midweek was talking about you know the Spartans
and the three hundred and you know the battle themopoly.
It was the same thing where they take and make
a hero someone who did something great anyway, but made
it even more, magnified it and in a lot of
(05:25):
ways if you really look at it, were they really
heroes or just yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
And I think we're going to if you pay attention,
you're going to find that in this story. Now, if
you're not familiar with the OK Corral gunfight, perhaps you're
listening from around the world and it just has no
interest to you, or you haven't heard about or you
didn't learn about it, or maybe only saw the movie.
(05:53):
This is no slight on anybody, because the truth of
the matter is there were a lot of lies and
there was a lot of storytelling post this event that
leads us to the point of believing that there were
good guys, bad guys, of victory and all these sort
(06:17):
of things.
Speaker 6 (06:18):
Yeah, and like we always say, you know, the winner
or the person who lives the longest because to tell
the story.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
So what we're gonna do today is we're going to
go through not the timeline or even the narrative. I
think most people know the story. It only took thirty
seconds this gunfight, and in a snapshot, if you just
watched the gunfight, pretty much everybody has that right. The
(06:47):
characters that were there, how it happened, who got shot,
who lived, who died, who ran, that's not hard to find, no,
But the real story is the before and after.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
Yeah, the gunfight has pretty much come to a point
where it's like, Okay, the evidence and from witness testimony
and everything else, they've been able to find this is
what happened.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yes, from the time the cowboys showed up to the
time that the law men and Doc Holliday confronted them,
that is very well documented. In fact, it took place,
and a lot of people may or may not know this.
It actually did not happen at the Ok Corral, which
was a real place in Tombstone. It's where the cowboys
(07:38):
gathered to make their plan and to discuss what they
were going to do. There was an individual who saw
it and saw that they were armed, ran down to
get the ERPs and thus dark holiday and as they
came down the street, the cowboys came out of the
Okay Corral into the street, and it actually happened in
(08:00):
front of what's known as Flies Photography, and there was
also a rooming house. Now, the person who ran Flies
Photography Gallery witnessed the entire thing. In fact, some people,
one in particular, broke through the window into his office
or into his entryway and then ended up getting shot.
(08:24):
But he didn't take any photographs, even though that's what
he was there to do, document this rise of Tombstone
and the silver mining and everything that was going on there.
But he did see the entire thing bird's eye view,
and so did several other people who were in the
rooming house. And across the street was this thing called
(08:45):
the Harwood House. There were a lot of witnesses to this. Yes,
so let's back it up and let's talk about how
we got to the point of this gun, and then
we'll get into what happened after the gunfight, and why
it's so legendary, and why should we be interested in
(09:08):
this to this day? Why are people still fascinated about
this whole thing? And I will tell you this, Tombstone
as a town at one point was a massive, for
that time, thriving.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Town.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
It's right on the border of Arizona and Mexico. In fact,
when you're there in Tombstone, you can look south and
see Mexico. It's right there. Tombstone was nothing zero until
a guy went through and was up in this mountain
range and when I say mountains, it's more like rolling
(09:49):
hills anyway, struck silver and then the boom was on.
And at one point they were pulling more silver out
of this mountain range than anywhere else in the United
States by today's standards, billions of dollars of silver.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
It was huge, huge silver. Mind And I thought was
interesting too, is like when they talked about how it
got its name was pretty much the guy who found it.
When he went out there, one of his friends or
somebody who was talking to you said, well, you're going
to find your death out there. So yeah, he got
all the money. He's like, well, guess this is my tombstone.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And that is a fact because it wasn't just because
of the terrain. There were a lot of cattle thieves.
The Mexicans would come across the people, yes, would go
into Mexico. They would steal stuff. There was a lot of,
i'll just say, not good things going on there, and
there was no law. It's out in the middle of nowhere.
(10:45):
Even to this day, Tombstone is out in the middle
of nowhere.
Speaker 6 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
That being said, Tombstone itself has grown into this pretty
decent sized metropolis, but it's attracted every kind of person
you can imagine. People who are getting super rich, people
who have come there to make a fortune and they've
lost it all. People who are there as lawyers, people
(11:14):
who are politicians. This place is thriving, and a lot
of you know what they called ladies of the Night.
They had theaters. It was at one point seriously being
considered as the capital of the Western United States. This
Tombstone now it all fell apart, and now it's called
the town Too Tough to Die because it's been burned
(11:36):
to the ground twice. The silver mine has been flooded twice,
and it basically got abandoned. But at the time of this,
you had this huge influx of people, lots of different
kind of people from all across the United States who
are converging on this all to get rich.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Well.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
And you see that kind of like in the boomtowns
of you know, California in a gold rush. You saw
it in even like places in Washington for the coal mining,
like where these mining towns would pomp up and if
there was a good, you know, good bunch of it,
or you found a good you know, god my branch
went dead, a good mine that was profitable, it would
(12:18):
build the town. But then all of a sudden, once
that mine was gone, the town would just pretty much
shut up and go away.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yes, and that is what was happening here. Although as
this was going on, things were booming and they needed law,
they needed some sort of stability to be restored. Yes,
because again you had people sleeping on the streets, people
who had lost everything all the way up to people
who were building insane for the time houses and had
(12:48):
so much money they didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
So there was a lot of disparity and a lot
of wealth.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
But this all really kicked off about seven months before
the shootout started in March eighteen eighty one, there was
a stage coach called the Sandy Bob stage Coach and
it was coming into town and it was robbed by
a group of masked men. The driver of the stage coach,
(13:19):
his name was Bud Philpott. He was killed along with
one passenger. And nobody really knows why stuff was stolen.
Nobody knows what was stolen. I don't think it was
ever recovered that I know of. It was shocking though,
to the town because this stage coach rolls in and
(13:39):
everybody's dead. Those who were left were traumatized. Well, in
the town, you had the ERPs, and they suspected the
McClary brothers, who we now know as the Cowboys, But
the McClary's were just as convinced that it was the ERPs,
aided by Doc Holiday. So you had already these two
(14:00):
factions la men and these cowboys. Now when we say cowboys,
they're not what you would consider traditional cowboys in the
sense that they had a ranch and they were raising cattle. No,
they were basically cattle rustlers. They would ride into Mexico,
steal stuff, come back. But then a lot of people
(14:22):
were doing. If something wasn't branded, you could essentially take
it and nobody could prove that it was theirs, unless
you had a lot of eyewitnesses, and even then it
was suspect. Now, so you had both these guys pointing
the finger at each other. Now, I was at this
library in Tombstone, and I was reading this thing, and
(14:46):
it said Virgil Irp was busy cutting a deal with
Ike Clanton, who was one of the cowboys, and Virgil,
who was looking to be a tough law man in
advance of these elections that were coming up because he
was up for reelection, agreed to give Ike all the
(15:06):
reward money, no questions asked if Clinton turned in outlaws
and suspects. Clinton took the deal, but in the end
it didn't really matter because King Leonard and Crane, who
were the ones he turned in, all ended up dead
before Virgil could catch him. Yeah, so we got a
(15:29):
lot of problems there. Also, according to this other article,
Wyatt Erp, also running for office, and knowing Ike Clinton
to be of a persuadable nature, approached the cowboys, suggesting
they fake a stagecoach robbery. He and Doc Holliday would
scare away the robbers and no one would get hurt.
Clanton refused to take part. The bad blood continued to
(15:51):
accumulate between the two factions, and in early October, the
irp's arrested Cowboy Frank Stillwell Pete Spence for robbing a
stage coach out of Bisbee, and then the cowboys vowed revenge.
So that's really sort of the setup. There was some
bad blood, you know, between them, but it was more like, hey,
(16:12):
you're acting stupid, you're drunk, go home, I don't tell
me what to do.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
It was that kind of stuff. Yeah, this was when things.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Really took a turn to where it was like, you
know what, I'm gonna get you. Both of them were
saying this to each other, We're gonna get you. M
In my opinion, I think it's Virgil who actually made
a reputation for himself out of all of this. Wyatt
Arp's always given the credit. I don't think Wyatt Arp
(16:41):
was the hero.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
Well, and they kind of show in the movie a
little bit Virgil was the one really in charge. It
wasn't Wyatt, it was Virgil. And that's one thing a
lot of people, you know, I think miss Virgil was.
He was the marshall, he was everything else. He was
the one in charge to most of this.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, Virgil Irp at the time of this was attempting
to be a peacemaker. In fact, at the gunfight itself,
it was Virgil who was I'll just say, not begging,
but really making a case for everybody to put their
guns down, starting with the cowboys of course.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
According to this, Virgil quickly made a reputation for himself
as an effective, no nonsense law man, earning badges in
both Prescott, Arizona, and Tombstone. His goal in Tombstone was
to put a halt to a rash of stagecoach robberies
that were terrorizing the populace. Now he apparently had quite
the skill as a sharpshooter. He also outlawed carrying deadly
(17:45):
weapons within the city limits of Tombstone. According to this
other article, that crusade put Virgil in direct conflict with
the coachies county cowboys, who felt unfairly targeted by the
ERPs and their posse. Also, Virgil's won the ones who
got shot in the leg, and while he was down,
he continued to reload. He wasn't just gonna take it now.
(18:07):
So you had Virgil Irp, Wyatt Earp, and Morgan Irp
and Doc Holiday. Wyatt Earp, of course, is the one
everybody hears about. But that's because Wyatt Earp when it
all was said and done, he left town and took
a goal with him. We'll get to her in a moment.
(18:28):
Who was almost like a pr firm everywhere he went
from there. She would go in and sweet talk the
local newspaper to write glowing pieces about all of his
escapades and sharp shooting abilities, and it's what a wonderful
guy he was. In reality, Wyatt Earp spent a lot
(18:50):
of time in prison.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yeah he didn't. I mean he spent for most things
you can find. He spent more time almost which maybe
not completely, but he spent and probably as much time
in jail as he did a lawman. So he had
some questionable things that he did before he became a lawman.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
He only became a lawman in Tombstone because Virgil deputized him.
He deputized Wyatt, Morgan and Doc.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Yeah, and he tried to become the sheriff, but behind
beat him in a vote.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Right According to this article I'm reading and I could
not confirm this while I was in Tombstone, but a
lot of people said, yeah, it's probably true, says According
to the Cowboy's History, the posse boasted up to three
hundred members in its heyday, and of course it was
(19:47):
led by Tom and Frank McClary as well as Johnny Ringo.
And if you've seen the movie, you know who Johnny
Ringo is. He's the one at the very end that
Doc Holliday supposedly shoots when he uses the pay famous line,
I'm your Huckleberry.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
According to this a number of petty incidents of horse
theft and retribution between the IRBs and the cowboys took
place between eighteen seventy nine, and then, of course the
shootout in eighteen eighty one, the bulk of which put
the mclary's and Clantons and other cowboys in a bad light.
In this piece in the La Times on the Clanton
Clan suggests though the Hollywood and even historians have gotten
(20:26):
it all wrong. Ike Clanton, for instance, the most demonized
figure in the story, ran a lunch counter, and Tom
McClary was unarmed at the time of the shootout.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
But was he there's some report to say was b
hand trick saying he was, but then other report said that,
you know, people said he was unarmed at again know
that he was armed, that Ike was unarmed, and that's
why Ike ran.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yes, Ike did run. Actually I think two of them ran. Yeah,
according to this, in the days leading up to the shootout,
the cowboys, namely Clanton, the IRBs, and Doc Hall, they
were all quite busy drinking and trading barbs and threats.
And you see this in the movie as well, where
they're in the saloon and they're you know, I'm gonna
shoot you and I'll get out of here, all this
(21:10):
big game stuff. But nobody really knows that that's actually
true or not.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
No, there's a few reports of them, I think playing
cards together and drinking together, but not like they show
in the movie where it was over days and stuff
like that, because that was the other thing in the movie.
The movie's timeline makes it seem like everything happened within
like three days. Yeah, but like the whole like Curly
Bill shooting the other Sheriff Frank whatever White, Sheriff White,
(21:40):
that happened a year before, and it was like they
were wrestling for his gun and he got shot in
the groin, it wasn't shot in the chest, and it
took him four days to die. But it's there's a
whole bunch of that stuff that they like compound like
it happened within like three days. So no, a lot
of this stuff was over a year, seven months, stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
So it was it festered, Yeah, And I think a
lot of it did happen when one or the other
group was drunk, because they all loved to drink. Doc
Holliday loved to drink. The cowboys loved to drink. The
cowboys knew the secret of the IRPs, you know, they
knew they weren't as innocent as the driven snow. They
(22:21):
knew there were problems there, and so there was this
sort of bravado thing going on back and forth for
quite a while. And then when something would come up,
the RPS would just assume, oh, well, that's the cowboys
out there doing their thing. And when something would happen
to the cowboys, they would just assume, oh, I was
the IRPs trying to get us back, or you know,
harassing us or whatever.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
And nobody knows if that actually happened or not. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
No, And that was the other thing too, is I
mean the town Like in the movie, it seems like
everybody loves the IRBs. They're great, they're amazing, they're all
the stuff. Everyone loves the IRBs. But if you actually,
like look at the history, a lot of town did
not like them and thought they were bullies and the
other ones even like one of the big things they
had a problem with too, is I think it was
Morgan and Virgil weren't technically they never got married. They
(23:11):
were common law, which a lot of people look down on,
like that was, you know, a bad thing that you know,
they hadn't actually got married, they were just common law married.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
In fact, I have a statement here from Sheriff John b.
Han and this was part of his testimony for the prosecution,
and he's talking about this incident. Now, he did give
testimony for the prosecution, but reading through his statement, I'm
not quite so sure they should have put him up
(23:42):
there because he was not a big fan as far
as I'm concerned, of the ERPs. Anyway, he said it
went down like this that at about two point thirty
on the day of the shooting, he was in the
barbershop heard of trouble between the Clantons and the IRPs.
Went over to Hatford's corner. I asked Virgil Irp the marshall,
(24:05):
what was the excitement. So there was a lot of
guys in town looking for a fight. He mentioned no names,
and I said to Irp, you'd better disarm the crowd.
He said he would not, but would give them a
chance to make a fight. Now that's interesting because the
rule in town was you were not allowed to bring
(24:27):
your guns into town. And here you have a concerned
citizen who's saying, hey, there's guys down there. They're all
armed and they're looking for a fight. You might want
to disarm them in Virgil's like, ah, let's see what
they do.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing and a lot of
the stuff, because I think at that point Virgil was
he knew that with the bad Blood. I think he
knew if him and Morgan and Why and all of
them walked up to these guys, that it wasn't gonna end. Well,
He's just like, hey, let's see what they do. At
that point, you know, I think from most things I read,
(25:05):
they were still inside the bar. They hadn't stepped out,
and I guess the rule was if you were in
the building, you were good. You just couldn't walk like
in public. You were supposed to check them at the bar.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Sheriff John Behan goes on and tells Virgil IRPs this
quote it is your duty as a peace officer to
disarm the parties, and then he says, I meant any
parties connected with the cowboys who had arms. Morgan, Irp
and Holiday were the ones I was talking to at
the intersection of Allen and Fourth. Virgil Irp had a shotgun.
(25:39):
I saw no other arms on the others. I then
went down Fourth Street to the corner of Fremont, across
the opposit side of the Fourth Street, and saw Frank
mclowry holding a horse and in conversation with somebody. I
told mclowry I would have to disarm him, that there
was likely to be some trouble in town, and I
proposed to disarm everybody that had an arm. He said
(26:01):
he would not give up his gun, that he didn't
intend to have any trouble. I insisted. In about that time,
I saw Clinton and Tom mclowry down the street below
Flies building and said, come with me and then it
goes on from there. So there were several people who
were trying to tamp this down and trying to control
(26:23):
the situation, not the IRPs and not the cowboys, which
I find interesting because according to legend and lore, well,
the Earths were just this sort of kind of innocent
party who stumbled, you know, upon the cowboys who ambushed
them in a way. But that's not how it went
down at all. They were given a lot of advanced
(26:45):
notice of what was pending and what was coming and
what was about to happen.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
Yeah, and I mean it was. Yeah, it never should
have been with the blood, the bad blood between both
of the like all three of those families. The Clinton's
the McLear, he's in the IRPs. The IRPs should never
been the ones that go down there to take.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
Care of this Virgil.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
As much as I like him in this story, he
could have deputized any number of people to go down
there and say, hey, fellas to the cowboys, let's take
this down a notch. We're gonna take the IRPs over there,
(27:27):
and you guys stay here, wait till every you're cooler
heads prevailed or whatever. But no, everybody was itching for
a fight According to this White irp described the Coacheees
County cowboys as lowlifes and cow thieves. Now, when this
all went down and shots were fired, another thing people
(27:50):
don't really take note of is when they're shooting pistols
in these rifles, they were not using like twenty two bullets,
and so they were still using gunpowder, you know, lead
balls and stuff. So there was a lot of smoke.
There was a huge haze while this was going on,
(28:12):
and it took a while for the smoke to clear.
And when it all cleared, you had some dead, others wounded,
and everybody was scattered. Town was silent, and then it
sort of started coming back to life. There were only
a few people who were in the know as to
really what went down. Regardless, the town mourned Billy Clanton
(28:38):
and Tom and Frank McClary. According to the other paper
in town, which was The Nugget, who gave an entirely
different perspective to this shootout, two three hundred people showed
up to pay their respects over the course of a
(28:58):
day long memorial.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Were the cowboys, Yeah, because when they went in, because
the corner was basically a sympathizer for the cowboys. So
when he get everything up, he put them in the
best coffins he had and put them up for every
one of you, so that everyone could come and pay
their respects.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
According to the piece from the Nugget, the funeral procession
wound for two blocks and was comprised of three hundred
people on foot, twenty two carriages and several men on horseback,
and a brass ban led the weight to the cemetery.
(29:39):
Now the cemetery where they were buried, it's called boot Hill.
You can still go there. You can still see all
their graves and so forth. And it's the reason they
called that is because a lot of people died with
their boots on and so forth. But outside of other
famous outlaws and legends that are buried there, old man Clanton,
which was the head of the clan and clan was there,
(30:02):
and all of the people who passed away or who
died during the Okay Corrau shootout. According to the movie,
these were terrible people the cowboys. Nobody liked them. Everybody
saw them as rough neck, drunk, no good lived out
(30:24):
of town, rode into town, caused problems men. But the
reality is is that the town was extremely divided as
to who was right and who was wrong, so much
so that, as we just said, two three hundred people
showed up in a procession to pay respects to these
(30:48):
men who were the cowboys, and had a brass band
lead them, you know, lead their bodies to be buried
up on boothill. That doesn't sound to me like group
of people that everyone here.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
No, it doesn't not at all.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
I mentioned the Nugget. There were two papers at the time,
you had the Tombstone Epipath, which I have a copy
of right here. It's a compilation from eighteen eighty one
of all the different stories they wrote in the Tombstone
Epipath about this whole thing, from the shooting to the trial,
to the verdict and all of that. It's all the
(31:25):
different stories in their original form. The other one in
town was The Nugget. It's really funny because if you
read history on these papers, and I've come across this
several times, and I hate to bring politics into this,
(31:45):
but I have to because this is how it's presented
multiple times that the Epithath, the Tombstone Epipath was founded
by Republicans John P. Clum and Thomas Saum and another
guy named Charles Reppi. The newspaper's name had a lot
(32:08):
of people joking that because of its its being called
the Epithath, it would be dead within a year, but
that wasn't the case. It's actually still there to this day.
You can go see the old press and they do
runoff papers for the i say, tourists and stuff. It's
quite fascinating. The Epithaph definitely aligned themselves with the IRPs.
(32:30):
Reading through this and reading the account that the Epitaph
laid out of this, they are one hundred percent on
the side of the IRPs, no doubt. And apparently they
were taking a lot of money from the mining interests
in town, those who wanted positive press about the silver mines,
(32:51):
the lawyers, the businessmen and all of that. Now, in contrast,
the Nugget was a democratic paper that championed the cowboys,
and they championed the cowboys in their covers of the
gunfight and against Holiday and the ERPs. In fact, one
(33:13):
of the articles in the Battles Aftermath, the writer Strange Credulity,
claiming that the Clanton Boys, known for stealing cattle and
indiscriminately waving their weapons around quote generally conducted themselves in
a quiet and orderly manner when in Tombstone, Yeah, which
we know that's not true. So both papers had an
(33:38):
axe to grind. They both took aside. They both were
trying to whitewash a tomb That's really the only way
to put it.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Can we trust either paper? Again?
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I think when it comes down to the facts, which
is interesting because I did look at the actual reporting
from the nugget of just the event, just the shootout,
and it's the same as the epitaph. The people who
were there, who drew first, who got shot, who went
(34:12):
through the windows, all that stuff, they're exactly the same,
because you can't really deviate from that in a town
like that, because there were those who were standing right there.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Yeah, inside they knew.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
It's the the story outside the story where these guys
all either lean left or right accordingly. I don't think
it's really Republican Democrat, honestly, but I think it's they
picked a side and they went with it.
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
And was it because of money, was it because of sympathy?
Was it?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
We don't really know. But that's something that has never
ever changed. Now, So if you're living in Tombstone. You're
on the other side of town. You hear about this
thing that went down. It's the talk of the entire
higher town and you're hearing people talk about it. And
then you go and you pick up the epitaph. Well
(35:05):
you get one side of the story and all the
eyewitnesses and their comments, and then you go over and
you pick up the nugget, you get a completely different story.
So I think a lot of people in Tombstone were
very confused.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
I think.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
So it's like you see now, it depends on where
you get your news.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
Exactly. And that's I think that is. That's awful.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
It is, And that's one thing I've tried to explain
to people a couple of times. It's like you see
what you want to see because you go to specific
news sites that tell you what you want to hear.
And that's kind of like here, we're all of a sudden.
If you were reading you know, one of the papers,
you were all for the cowboys because it painted them
that way, and all the facts and information that you
(35:52):
had said to the cowboys were you know, the herbs
were bullies and they did this. But if you read
the other paper, the other way around.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Well, it also goes to this idea of.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Dishonest law men and just guys who are just you know,
quietly obeying the law, coming in mining their own business,
and all of a sudden being put upon by the law.
Because that was the other say narrative here. That became
a really big talking point and a bit of contention
(36:30):
amongst the town folks, where people were beginning to take
sides as to whether the Earps were good law men
or they were bad. Should we have them here? You know,
did they overstep their bounds? And then others like, well, no,
they were forced into it. They had to. They have
to uphold the law in order to keep you know,
(36:51):
stibility and so forth. And we have that same thing today.
We have that very same debate going on today. Because
here's the thing. The IRPs were no angels.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
No, they.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Manipulated, they lied, They had done bad things before they
got there. In fact, Wyatt had a long history of gambling.
He was a buffalo hunter at one time. He was
on the wrong side of the law multiple times.
Speaker 6 (37:25):
Yeah, best for horse wrestling.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
Yeah, he did all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
He was no saint, no, and he was deputized, you know,
during this time, he wasn't even an elected or hired
on law man, which you could do back then. We've
all seen the movies, we've all read the books, I think,
where the sheriff is about to get overwhelmed, so he
(37:50):
goes and finds his best men in town. I hereby
deputize you.
Speaker 5 (37:54):
You are.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Now we're working on behalf of the city of whatever,
and it's a temporary thing, just to kind of restore
law and order.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Yeah, you're gonna help us out for a bit, and
then it's it.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
According to this one article that I was reading, I
thought it was interesting, says this Civil War vet was
the real hero of the Ok Corral shootout. It was like, well,
who could this be? And this is once again Virgil irp.
A lot of people want to give Virgil this heroes hat,
(38:33):
and I find that interesting. According to this Virgil, after
his eighteenth birthday, joined the Union Army. He fell in love,
fathered a child, and so forth. When the Civil War
broke out, he went to the eighty third Illinois Infantry.
After he returned home from the war, his wife and
daughter vanished with the new man, and he didn't know
(38:57):
what to do. He was heartbroke, everything was gone. So
that's when he decided to reunite with Wyatt and Morgan
and they met Doc Holliday in Dodge City, Kansas, and
after not too long, he was informed that Coachies County
down in Prescott, Arizona were having problems with these cowboys,
(39:18):
and so he decided to go down there. So then
the US Marshall over Arizona appointed Virgil as the Marshall
of Tombstone in the district of Pima County. According to him,
his main goal was to stop all the coach robbers
that occurred between Prescott and Tombstone. And I think the
reason everybody has this soft spot for Virgil is because
his wife and daughter disappeared and then they would eventually
(39:40):
cross paths later and her name.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
Was Ellen, and this was when he was an old man.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
He came across his wife and his daughter, and everyone's like,
there wasn't any bad blood between them, and he was
happy to meet the three grandkids he never knew existed,
so a lot of people because he survived it, he
was kind of quiet he was the marshall. But I
don't I think Virgil actually made some mistakes in this
whole thing as well. Oh yeah, I don't think he
(40:10):
was completely the hero. I think he maybe did some
heroic stuff. But let's talk about some of the ladies
that were involved in this, because I think this is interesting.
There's always some ladies at the heart of this. According
to this article, the Ok Corral gunmen were obviously called
for characters, but the women with whom they kept company
(40:30):
were just as noteworthy. Take, for instance, Big Nose Kate Horny,
the daughter of a Hungarian doctor. She was orphaned and
working as a prostitute in Texas, and then she met
Doc Holliday in eighteen seventy five. Later, when Holiday was
arrested for killing a bully during a card game, she
(40:53):
set the jail on fire as a distraction and sprang
her man. And she's also if you see the movie,
she's in that movie.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
Yeah, it's her. It's his good.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Friend, Wyatt Earp. He moved to Tombstone with a lady
named Mattie Blaylock, who was a prostitute from Dodge City.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
Well, that was one of interesting thing with I was
reading everything about like Wyatt Earp. You know, he was
arrested for pimping like four times. Yes, they had to
make money somehow, and that was the thing with Mattie
is one of the things I found. Basically it said
that Maddie basically like he got arrested and him and
(41:35):
her both got arrested, and she said she was his wife.
And that's pretty much how she became as common law life.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Yeah, to avoid bigod shamed and all that stuff. Yeah,
but the problem with her was she was addicted to
this what they called laudanum yep, which I didn't I'd
never heard of it, but it was apparently some sort
of liquid heroine.
Speaker 6 (41:56):
Yeah, it was basically opioids. It was what they used
for like painkiller basically, but it became kind of a
It's supposed to be an occasional painkiller, but a lot
of people like her would just.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Well she did die later of an overdose from it.
Then there was a ground named Josephine Sadie Marcus, who
was a former actress and at the time the companion
of the county sheriff, Johnny Bahan. Marcus eventually left a
sheriff for IRP, unbeenounced to Blaylock, whom IRP had sent
(42:30):
to California to wait out the violence. Brewing in Tombstone.
This Josephine Marcus and Rp remained together the rest of
their lives, and it's because of Marcus that Irp is
thought of as the hero he is today. There's also
Luisa Houston, Irp Morgan's wife, and she was the granddaughter
(42:50):
of Sam Houston. If you know anything about Texas and
the city of Houston, Sam Houston is a legend. There
was also Ali Irp, wife to Virgil, who never left
her husband side. She loved to be ninety eight. Now,
the interesting thing about this, in my opinion, is this
Josephine Marcus. Because Josephine Marcus and Whyatt Earp, in a
(43:16):
lot of ways, were the lone survivors to tell this story.
They ended up in Hollywood and they were retelling all
these tales. They had the cliffhangers that kids would go
to the movies and see every week. And Wyatt Earp's
character played a major role, and any book that was
(43:36):
written about Wyatt Earp had to go through her. She's
also the one who would go and set up interviews
with newspapers to tell these great tales of Wyatt. Wyatt
ended up on the set of a lot of these
movies as a i'll say a controller, somebody who would
oversee what was going on to make sure his character
(43:58):
look good. He told the story and how it was
acted out on the screen was accurate according to him.
Speaker 6 (44:06):
Yeah. See, And that's what we said earlier about how
like the history of this is who lived the longest
tell the story, and that's kind of how it comes
into why and Josephine lived longer than the rest of them,
so the story came from them, and I think that's
why why it becomes the hero, this huge hero and
all the stories.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Absolutely, and again this is something we can all learn
from because we've been taken to task before bringing this
kind of stuff up about quote great American heroes. Now,
two things can be true at the same time. Yes,
you can do amazing things, and you can also either
(44:50):
have a checkered pass or be a not so great
person while you're doing a great thing. We can look
at Trump, we can look at Trump on that and
a lot of figures throughout our history MLK, JFK, some
of the great leaders of America, and we could expand
that around the world and around the globe. A lot
(45:13):
of people who did amazing things were not that amazing
in their personal lives.
Speaker 6 (45:21):
Yeah. Well, and I think the big problem that you
run into is people immediately it's got to be one
or the other. It's one of the big arguments. You
see a lot just to bring some like Adolf Hitler.
Nobody if you said anything that Adolf Hitler was good,
it's a horrible thing. It's like, no, he actually did
some things that were very intelligent and smart during the war.
(45:42):
Everything else he did was completely wrong and he was
a horrible person. But that doesn't mean he didn't do
some things that were good in a way. It's the
same thing like we always talk about Kazinski and his
you know, his manifesto. If you tell people that the
manifestos from Ted because it's most people were agree with it.
But the second they know it's his, oh, this is
(46:04):
all garbage and horrible. It's like he did horrible things.
He had some good ideas.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
There's a person named Mary Doria Russell, and she wrote
a book called Epitaph, a novel of the Ok Corral,
which I thumbed through while I was there. I didn't
purchase it because I didn't have time, and I'll get.
Speaker 5 (46:23):
It at some point.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
But one of the things I found very interesting was
and I found an article where they were talking to
her about this, about her book and everything, and she
says that the shootout at the Okay Corral was not
a simple tale of good versus evil, but a nuanced
conflict driven by personal agendas and political rivalries. In her book,
(46:48):
she tries to, according to her appeal all this back
and sort of give all the nuances and every kind
of like we've done here. What I find interesting, though,
is that a lot of people don't want to hear this.
We see this even to this day. Everything is black
and white, good and evil, hero villain, And I think
(47:12):
in a lot of.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
Ways, we've always been there.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
You can go back to the fairy tales, you can
go back to a lot of the Egyptian stories. There
always has to be good versus evil, good and bad
hero and villain. Does that happen, of course it does.
There are good people and bad people, there are good
things and bad things. But there are times when you're
(47:38):
not there, you didn't see it, and you're getting the
stories from multiple angles. It's going through so many different
lenses and filters, and I think part of today is
we can't. I don't know if we'll ever get to
this point again, because now if any story hits imediately,
(48:01):
there's multiple angles, there's conspiracies, there's nobody's telling the truth.
This only this person's telling the truth, but we can't
trust them because of that, and so it's really hard
to get to I'll just say the crux and the
reality and the truth of the matter. Whereas back then,
in some simple way, this allowed people to sort of
(48:26):
digest this. Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, did you
hear about what happened in Tombstone? Know what happened? Well,
the laymen and the cowboys shot it out? Oh who
won the law man?
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (48:37):
Cool, you know, without knowing the entire story. And I'm
kind of, you know, kind in the middle of this
because one thing I really hate that we're going through
in our lifetime is this idea of well, i'll just
take you're like wicked. So I'm a big fan of
the Wizard of Oz, huge fan, read all the books,
(49:00):
love it. But this idea that the there can't be
a bad character because they're not really bad because you
have to understand how they got there or what drove
them there, and they're not really bad, they're just acting
out based on other bad people that did bad things
to that. Like, it just goes on and on and on.
It's this sort of relativism. And I know that's a
(49:25):
fantasy story, but I think Frank Elbaum would roll in
his grave if he knew what they were doing to
his his.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Story of good and evil.
Speaker 6 (49:34):
Basically, yeah, because there's no good in evil. There's just
different shades of gray.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Right, And and I know people a gonna go, yeah,
but that's what you're talking about with this story right here.
Actually it's not what we really want. And I think
what all of mankind really longs for.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Is the truth. Yeah, tell the truth.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Oh yeah. And I think the hardest part is with Hollywood,
and this is where a lot of people make the mistakes.
And I mentioned this and other things. When you see
these movies like Tombstone that are based on a true story,
they are loosely based. I mean considering you know, when
I did the ed Geen I talked about the fact
that technically Texas Chainsaw massacre is based off ed Gean
(50:23):
and is based off a true story. But the only
thing that's similar is he skinned people and made it
into a mask, which really ed Gan just made dresses
and had the nipple belt. I mean, that's the whole
based on you know, the rest of it's all wrong.
And that's the thing with Tombstone is it's you know,
it's based on there's some parts that are really close,
(50:45):
like the gun the gun fights close, you know, the
whole thing, like you mentioned earlier, Johnny Ringo. If you
actually look up Johnny Ringo, they say he died from suicide.
All the other stories are basically maybe, you know, wired
IRB said this happened. Doc Holiday said he did it.
There's like three other people that all say they did it.
But when they find him, found him the only you know,
(51:07):
he's gonna been discharged once and the bullet wound is
consistent with it as suicide. Possibly could be, who knows.
But that's the thing with a lot of this stuff.
It's a lot better story that Doc Holliday came out
of you know and got him in a gunfight. But
in all honesty, most people don't realize too. If you
read up on Doc Holiday, he supposed it was a
(51:27):
horrible shot.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
Well he was drunk all the time, Oh yeah, and
he had all kinds of physical ailments. Yes, so you know,
maybe Wyatt would have been the one if I had
to say, oh, somebody else did it, But again we
don't know, we weren't there.
Speaker 5 (51:44):
But I do love a good story. I do. I love.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
Somebody who can spin a yarn. I like telling a
good story. And we all at times when we have
a good story going. I don't want to say embellish,
but we make some things about the story more important
than others to tell a good story.
Speaker 5 (52:09):
Same thing with your comedy.
Speaker 6 (52:11):
Yeah, you add a little bit of into it to
get it going.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Yeah, add a little bit of flair. Now. You know.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Sometimes people get in trouble for that because they add
too much, or they make a claim they can't back up,
or whatever, especially if they're in the position of say
politician or a pastor or something like that, and they
should be held accountable for that because you can't be
spinning big yarns. But if you are a storyteller, or
you're telling a story through a movie or through comedy
(52:40):
or whatever, we all should understand that. With this incident
right here, of all the things that happen in the West,
and a lot of great stuff happen there's a lot
of great stories about like the Alamo, and you can
go on and on the ok Corral shootout. For all
(53:05):
of it supposed to glory and this idea, the sort
of romanticized version of what it was like to live
during this time where la men took care of the
women and the bad guys would ride into town and
so forth. I'm sure it happened here there. It didn't
happen here, but yet that's what this has come to symbolize.
(53:28):
And I still just kind of scratch my head and
I don't get it now. And here's so here's a
little tip for all of you. If you've never been
to Tombstone, it is absolutely worth your time to go there.
It is a fantastic trip back in time, and they
have done a great job there keeping it that way.
(53:51):
There's a lot of things to do there, and I'm
just gonna give you a little hint about some things
that are worth your time and things that you could
just skip or if you really want to do it,
I'm just going to tell you they're not that great.
One is the Silver Mine. I mean, if you're really
into silver minds or whatever, fine, I think it's a
waste of time. There are two reenactments of the Okay Corral.
(54:16):
One of them is the official reenactment, and they do
it just like you see in the movie. There's another
one that's just a few blocks away, which is not
technically the shootout at the ok Corral. They just call
it the Great Western Shootout or something. And heads up,
they're actually telling you the true story over there. They
(54:39):
don't use any names. You don't see Doc Holiday, and
you don't see the IRPs, and you don't see any
of the cowboys, but the reenactment of this shootout in
this town, through what they're doing, they actually tell the
real story and it's quite fascinating.
Speaker 5 (54:59):
To to watch that.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
Yeah, there's also a thing in town which is it's
really old school by today's standards, but it's this theater
and it's about twenty minutes and it's narrated by Vincent Price,
and it is absolutely fantastic. And if you're really into
(55:22):
history and you really want to understand what happened in
Tombstone as a town, not just the Okay Corral, but
how it came to be, what happened, the flooding of
the mines, how big it got at one point, how
it basically became a ghost town and all this stuff,
how it became too tough to die. I can't recommend
(55:43):
it enough. It is fantastic. Now there's a lot of
places there that will tell you also that they are
the original building. I think there's only one, and I
do believe it's actually the rebuilt version of the theater
in town. Big those kates like Vaudeville Theater or something
(56:05):
like that, don't go on any of the ghost tours,
you know, those are all take In fact, it's funny
because Brandon and I have been on ghost ghost hunts.
They you could rent from them, Brandon, those little whatever
meters that supply, yes, you could rent one from them
(56:27):
and go on these And if you know anything about
EMF meters, those are frauds of the highest standard.
Speaker 6 (56:35):
You just got to get close to anything electrical and
they're gonna go nuts.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
So anyway, it's it's a full day's worth of if
you're just gonna, you know, jump down there. I would
be there, you know, fair early in the morning, plan
to stay till five or six. A lot of places
to eat. It is fantastic. I can't recommend it enough.
And do go to the reenactments and wander around town.
The other thing I thought was funny. I've never seen
(57:01):
this before either one of the stores there, you could
rent a cowboy hat for the day and a mocked pistol,
So you could wear a cowboy hat and have a
holster with a I assume it's a cap gun, pistol
or whatever and walk around like the cowboys did, which
(57:22):
I thought was quite funny.
Speaker 6 (57:24):
That is because that's one thing you will never see
me rent no hat, because that's the argament I've gotten
into its safety where there was like a job set
it was on and there was like they just each shift,
there was just one basic hard hat and they just
handed to the next guy. And I'm like, yeah, no,
I'll go buy my own.
Speaker 5 (57:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (57:45):
I wouldn't even do that and wear like a a
plastic cap on my head.
Speaker 6 (57:49):
And do it.
Speaker 5 (57:50):
Okay. So what did we learn today that we can apply.
Speaker 6 (57:56):
Don't trust the media absolutely one.
Speaker 5 (58:00):
That's number one.
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Neither of these papers are trustworthy in any way, shape
or form. And they were all influenced by outside money
and outside forces that had some sort of agenda.
Speaker 6 (58:12):
No, that never happens, So that has never changed.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Also, you have the right pr person. You have the
right person, you go somewhere. And it's a little harder
now with digital and Facebook and all kinds of social media.
But if you have the right person with you, or
you're really good at it, you can go somewhere and
reestablish yourself and tell all kind of great tales about
(58:40):
yourself that people can't check out. And you could be
a hero rolling into a town, which is what happened
to Wyatt. He would send her ahead to towns, like
a day or so in advance to get this stuff
written about him, and he would write in as a hero,
get free drinks, get a free room. So why you
(59:00):
ended up in Hollywood?
Speaker 6 (59:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (59:04):
And it was all fake. And you know, I do
have a little bit of sympathy for the cowboys in
the sense that I'm sure they weren't great people. But
you know, at the same time, did they deserve to die?
Did they? Or were they really there to kill the IRBs?
All indications are now they were there to settle some
(59:28):
sort of grievances that they had.
Speaker 5 (59:31):
It did get out of hand and then everybody was shooting.
Was it great?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
No?
Speaker 4 (59:37):
It makes for a great story, and it makes for
a great movie, but in reality, who we're all supposed
to believe were just these really bad guys who were
picking on the poor lawmen. Well you heard it. Half
the town or more were on their side, mourned them,
and it became a big debate. Yeah, I think it's
(59:59):
interest thing. Will we ever get to the truth of Tombstone? No,
because they're all dead and I don't think they would
have told it even if they were here.
Speaker 6 (01:00:08):
No, No, I mean they all. I mean it's like
anything you're going to tell the story that makes you
look the best, and.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
It's getting even harder with the aim.
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
I mean they even I mean there was a trial.
I mean there was. There wasn't a full trial. There
was like a setup for grand jury, and the judge
didn't do it mainly, and it sounds mainly because one
of the McCleary brothers was a lawyer and he wanted
the death penalty and he wanted to take anything less.
Speaker 5 (01:00:36):
Yeah, and they were going to do that, and.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
Then they put Ike on the stand and Ikes had
a bunch of really really bad like stuff that didn't
even make sense, and they're like, yeah, you're a bad witness.
Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Well, no town at that time was going to hang
their law men unless there was overwhelming evidence that they
had done something horrendously wrong, because that was set a
massively bad precedent. Oh yeah, to be like executing the
chief of police of Dallas or something over a disagreement
(01:01:10):
with somebody. I know they shot and I know people
got killed. And unfortunately, that was a bit of the
way of life.
Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
Back then.
Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
It was very common, and so it's not like today
where it's like, I can't believe this guy in office
shot somebody. It was pretty common back then.
Speaker 6 (01:01:27):
Now it was. I mean, it's unfortunately how you dealt
with things.
Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
Oh for the days, all right, everybody, If you have
any questions on the Okay Corral fiasco or you have
some insights, I mean, it's a very deep subject when
you get into it. There's a lot of stuff we
didn't even get to or weren't able to cover. But
I think you understand where we're going with this, especially
(01:01:56):
comparing it to what we're going through today. When you
hear something, you hear about an incident, or you hear
about something that is supposed to be monumental or whatever
it is, it doesn't matter what angle is coming from.
Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
From the press. They're probably not telling you the truth.
Speaker 6 (01:02:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
I don't know that that will ever be corrected. I
don't know if we'll ever get past that. But it's
been going on for a long time, it continues on today,
and it's something that you really need to pay attention
to and consider before you just jump in and accept
what you're being told by any news agency or even
(01:02:37):
something even sometimes the people who participated in said event.
Speaker 6 (01:02:41):
Yeah, I mean, do your research look into some things,
because I mean, that's one thing that I find so
much is half truth and just people saying, oh, yeah, yeah,
this is what happened because this news article said it,
and then you go and look at it. I mean, heck,
the BBC just had their main per and pretty much
step down because they found out that they were cutting
(01:03:04):
and pasting to make things seem the way they wanted
them to.
Speaker 5 (01:03:08):
Yeah, and how long have they been doing that in
to how many people?
Speaker 6 (01:03:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Right, that opens that door, so you'll always always be
careful with that.
Speaker 5 (01:03:16):
All right, I've got the midweek.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
I will be with you then, and Brandon, I will
say right now to those of you in the United States,
Happy Thanksgiving. Take a moment out I know it's stressful,
stressful time.
Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
We all have hardships.
Speaker 4 (01:03:31):
Life isn't easy at times, but it is very refreshing
for the soul to take a moment on Thanksgiving Day,
and it should be every day, but especially Thanksgiving, and
just be thankful for another year.
Speaker 5 (01:03:46):
You're here, You've survived it.
Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
Take a breath, take a breather, Be thankful for the
things you have, Be thankful for where you're at, Be
thankful for your friends and your family around you, and
you'll gear up for another year.
Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
Email us down the RH at ProtonMail dot com. Down
the r H at ProtonMail dot com. I'm Big D.
Speaker 6 (01:04:13):
And I'm Brandon. We're out of here, Silea.
Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
do you have the app?
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
It's the best way to listen to the Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
It's safe and you don't have to log in to
use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
and it sounds beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app?
Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Right at the top of the page.
Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
I know, slippers. We gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.
Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
Six
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
do you.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Have the app? It's the best way to listen to
the Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
It's safe and you don't have to log in to
use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
and it sounds beautiful.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com right at the
top of the page.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I know, slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Hey, welcome everybody, NWCC radio dot com Channel ones down
the rabbit Hole.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
I'm Big D and I'm Brandon. It's good to have
everybody along.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Thirty seconds sometimes can seem like a long time, and
other times, of course, it goes in the blink of
an eye. But the thirty seconds that we're going to
talk about on today's program has spawned legends, legacy, all
kind of rumors and stories of history that we.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Have to unpack.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yes, so before we get into it, I want to
remind you that you can email us at down the
rh at ProtonMail dot com. Down the r to ProtonMail
dot com and of course thank you to Fringe Radio Network.
We appreciate those guys, and you can always check us
out on their app.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Highly recommend that.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Yes, if you like what we do and like our show,
you're definitely gonna like what's on Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
So on my last Midweek I talked about a road
trip that I was on last week. One of the
stops which is one of my favorites. I love going there,
have been there several times is Tombstone, Arizona, And one
of my favorite movies of all time is Tombstone, the
I'll just say the more modern one, although I guess
(02:38):
it's old now. Yeah, but it's the one with Val
Kilmer and all star cast, amazing cast Sam Elliott.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
Oh yeah, it's an amazing cast. And what's funny too,
is like when you were talking about it, I literally like,
when I was in South Carolina one of the nights
going to bed, this is Tombstone's in the movie that
came on and I sat and watched it because it's
one of those movies if it comes on tvlatch it
because I love that movie absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I love westerns and a lot of people have different
aspects of history that they really delve into. So some
really love World War two, Civil War, some love history
as far as the world history and so forth. I
love Western history in the United States. Yes, it's one
of the things that my dad passed on to me.
(03:25):
He was really big into it, So I think I
was just born into it, I guess. But being in Tombstone,
every time I go there, I learn something new, and
I'm amazed at how many people just accept at face
value the story that has been told about Tombstone and
(03:48):
the Ok Corral gunfight. Now you say, well, you know,
what does this have to do with conspiracies and what
does this have to do with kind of your overall
theme of your show. What we're gonna learn today is
that no matter how circumstances and how technology and how
things change around us in the world, some things never change. Yeah,
(04:14):
what we're going to find out today as we roll
through this scenario is a lot of things that are
applicable and that we should all keep in mind about
our current state. And we've mentioned this before. History is
written by the winners, and so you get a one
(04:35):
sided view most of the time of how things went down.
There always has to be a hero, a villain, a
shape shifter, you have to have surprises, There has to
be an arc, there has to be some sort of
trauma or emergency that needs to be overcome. These are
(04:57):
all consistent in especially Western world storytelling.
Speaker 6 (05:03):
Well, I mean they're really consistent and a lot of
storytelling because I mean, like the story I just did
on the Midweek was talking about you know the Spartans
and the three hundred and you know the battle themopoly.
It was the same thing where they take and make
a hero someone who did something great anyway, but made
it even more, magnified it and in a lot of
(05:25):
ways if you really look at it, were they really
heroes or just yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:31):
And I think we're going to if you pay attention,
you're going to find that in this story. Now, if
you're not familiar with the OK Corral gunfight, perhaps you're
listening from around the world and it just has no
interest to you, or you haven't heard about or you
didn't learn about it, or maybe only saw the movie.
(05:53):
This is no slight on anybody, because the truth of
the matter is there were a lot of lies and
there was a lot of storytelling post this event that
leads us to the point of believing that there were
good guys, bad guys, of victory and all these sort
(06:17):
of things.
Speaker 6 (06:18):
Yeah, and like we always say, you know, the winner
or the person who lives the longest because to tell
the story.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
So what we're gonna do today is we're going to
go through not the timeline or even the narrative. I
think most people know the story. It only took thirty
seconds this gunfight, and in a snapshot, if you just
watched the gunfight, pretty much everybody has that right. The
(06:47):
characters that were there, how it happened, who got shot,
who lived, who died, who ran, that's not hard to find, no,
But the real story is the before and after.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
Yeah, the gunfight has pretty much come to a point
where it's like, Okay, the evidence and from witness testimony
and everything else, they've been able to find this is
what happened.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yes, from the time the cowboys showed up to the
time that the law men and Doc Holliday confronted them,
that is very well documented. In fact, it took place,
and a lot of people may or may not know this.
It actually did not happen at the Ok Corral, which
was a real place in Tombstone. It's where the cowboys
(07:38):
gathered to make their plan and to discuss what they
were going to do. There was an individual who saw
it and saw that they were armed, ran down to
get the ERPs and thus dark holiday and as they
came down the street, the cowboys came out of the
Okay Corral into the street, and it actually happened in
(08:00):
front of what's known as Flies Photography, and there was
also a rooming house. Now, the person who ran Flies
Photography Gallery witnessed the entire thing. In fact, some people,
one in particular, broke through the window into his office
or into his entryway and then ended up getting shot.
(08:24):
But he didn't take any photographs, even though that's what
he was there to do, document this rise of Tombstone
and the silver mining and everything that was going on there.
But he did see the entire thing bird's eye view,
and so did several other people who were in the
rooming house. And across the street was this thing called
(08:45):
the Harwood House. There were a lot of witnesses to this. Yes,
so let's back it up and let's talk about how
we got to the point of this gun, and then
we'll get into what happened after the gunfight, and why
it's so legendary, and why should we be interested in
(09:08):
this to this day? Why are people still fascinated about
this whole thing? And I will tell you this, Tombstone
as a town at one point was a massive, for
that time, thriving.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Town.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
It's right on the border of Arizona and Mexico. In fact,
when you're there in Tombstone, you can look south and
see Mexico. It's right there. Tombstone was nothing zero until
a guy went through and was up in this mountain
range and when I say mountains, it's more like rolling
(09:49):
hills anyway, struck silver and then the boom was on.
And at one point they were pulling more silver out
of this mountain range than anywhere else in the United
States by today's standards, billions of dollars of silver.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
It was huge, huge silver. Mind And I thought was
interesting too, is like when they talked about how it
got its name was pretty much the guy who found it.
When he went out there, one of his friends or
somebody who was talking to you said, well, you're going
to find your death out there. So yeah, he got
all the money. He's like, well, guess this is my tombstone.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And that is a fact because it wasn't just because
of the terrain. There were a lot of cattle thieves.
The Mexicans would come across the people, yes, would go
into Mexico. They would steal stuff. There was a lot of,
i'll just say, not good things going on there, and
there was no law. It's out in the middle of nowhere.
(10:45):
Even to this day, Tombstone is out in the middle
of nowhere.
Speaker 6 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
That being said, Tombstone itself has grown into this pretty
decent sized metropolis, but it's attracted every kind of person
you can imagine. People who are getting super rich, people
who have come there to make a fortune and they've
lost it all. People who are there as lawyers, people
(11:14):
who are politicians. This place is thriving, and a lot
of you know what they called ladies of the Night.
They had theaters. It was at one point seriously being
considered as the capital of the Western United States. This
Tombstone now it all fell apart, and now it's called
the town Too Tough to Die because it's been burned
(11:36):
to the ground twice. The silver mine has been flooded twice,
and it basically got abandoned. But at the time of this,
you had this huge influx of people, lots of different
kind of people from all across the United States who
are converging on this all to get rich.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Well.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
And you see that kind of like in the boomtowns
of you know, California in a gold rush. You saw
it in even like places in Washington for the coal mining,
like where these mining towns would pomp up and if
there was a good, you know, good bunch of it,
or you found a good you know, god my branch
went dead, a good mine that was profitable, it would
(12:18):
build the town. But then all of a sudden, once
that mine was gone, the town would just pretty much
shut up and go away.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yes, and that is what was happening here. Although as
this was going on, things were booming and they needed law,
they needed some sort of stability to be restored. Yes,
because again you had people sleeping on the streets, people
who had lost everything all the way up to people
who were building insane for the time houses and had
(12:48):
so much money they didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
So there was a lot of disparity and a lot
of wealth.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
But this all really kicked off about seven months before
the shootout started in March eighteen eighty one, there was
a stage coach called the Sandy Bob stage Coach and
it was coming into town and it was robbed by
a group of masked men. The driver of the stage coach,
(13:19):
his name was Bud Philpott. He was killed along with
one passenger. And nobody really knows why stuff was stolen.
Nobody knows what was stolen. I don't think it was
ever recovered that I know of. It was shocking though,
to the town because this stage coach rolls in and
(13:39):
everybody's dead. Those who were left were traumatized. Well, in
the town, you had the ERPs, and they suspected the
McClary brothers, who we now know as the Cowboys, But
the McClary's were just as convinced that it was the ERPs,
aided by Doc Holiday. So you had already these two
(14:00):
factions la men and these cowboys. Now when we say cowboys,
they're not what you would consider traditional cowboys in the
sense that they had a ranch and they were raising cattle. No,
they were basically cattle rustlers. They would ride into Mexico,
steal stuff, come back. But then a lot of people
(14:22):
were doing. If something wasn't branded, you could essentially take
it and nobody could prove that it was theirs, unless
you had a lot of eyewitnesses, and even then it
was suspect. Now, so you had both these guys pointing
the finger at each other. Now, I was at this
library in Tombstone, and I was reading this thing, and
(14:46):
it said Virgil Irp was busy cutting a deal with
Ike Clanton, who was one of the cowboys, and Virgil,
who was looking to be a tough law man in
advance of these elections that were coming up because he
was up for reelection, agreed to give Ike all the
(15:06):
reward money, no questions asked if Clinton turned in outlaws
and suspects. Clinton took the deal, but in the end
it didn't really matter because King Leonard and Crane, who
were the ones he turned in, all ended up dead
before Virgil could catch him. Yeah, so we got a
(15:29):
lot of problems there. Also, according to this other article,
Wyatt Erp, also running for office, and knowing Ike Clinton
to be of a persuadable nature, approached the cowboys, suggesting
they fake a stagecoach robbery. He and Doc Holliday would
scare away the robbers and no one would get hurt.
Clanton refused to take part. The bad blood continued to
(15:51):
accumulate between the two factions, and in early October, the
irp's arrested Cowboy Frank Stillwell Pete Spence for robbing a
stage coach out of Bisbee, and then the cowboys vowed revenge.
So that's really sort of the setup. There was some
bad blood, you know, between them, but it was more like, hey,
(16:12):
you're acting stupid, you're drunk, go home, I don't tell
me what to do.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
It was that kind of stuff. Yeah, this was when things.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Really took a turn to where it was like, you
know what, I'm gonna get you. Both of them were
saying this to each other, We're gonna get you. M
In my opinion, I think it's Virgil who actually made
a reputation for himself out of all of this. Wyatt
Arp's always given the credit. I don't think Wyatt Arp
(16:41):
was the hero.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
Well, and they kind of show in the movie a
little bit Virgil was the one really in charge. It
wasn't Wyatt, it was Virgil. And that's one thing a
lot of people, you know, I think miss Virgil was.
He was the marshall, he was everything else. He was
the one in charge to most of this.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, Virgil Irp at the time of this was attempting
to be a peacemaker. In fact, at the gunfight itself,
it was Virgil who was I'll just say, not begging,
but really making a case for everybody to put their
guns down, starting with the cowboys of course.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
According to this, Virgil quickly made a reputation for himself
as an effective, no nonsense law man, earning badges in
both Prescott, Arizona, and Tombstone. His goal in Tombstone was
to put a halt to a rash of stagecoach robberies
that were terrorizing the populace. Now he apparently had quite
the skill as a sharpshooter. He also outlawed carrying deadly
(17:45):
weapons within the city limits of Tombstone. According to this
other article, that crusade put Virgil in direct conflict with
the coachies county cowboys, who felt unfairly targeted by the
ERPs and their posse. Also, Virgil's won the ones who
got shot in the leg, and while he was down,
he continued to reload. He wasn't just gonna take it now.
(18:07):
So you had Virgil Irp, Wyatt Earp, and Morgan Irp
and Doc Holiday. Wyatt Earp, of course, is the one
everybody hears about. But that's because Wyatt Earp when it
all was said and done, he left town and took
a goal with him. We'll get to her in a moment.
(18:28):
Who was almost like a pr firm everywhere he went
from there. She would go in and sweet talk the
local newspaper to write glowing pieces about all of his
escapades and sharp shooting abilities, and it's what a wonderful
guy he was. In reality, Wyatt Earp spent a lot
(18:50):
of time in prison.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yeah he didn't. I mean he spent for most things
you can find. He spent more time almost which maybe
not completely, but he spent and probably as much time
in jail as he did a lawman. So he had
some questionable things that he did before he became a lawman.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
He only became a lawman in Tombstone because Virgil deputized him.
He deputized Wyatt, Morgan and Doc.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Yeah, and he tried to become the sheriff, but behind
beat him in a vote.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Right According to this article I'm reading and I could
not confirm this while I was in Tombstone, but a
lot of people said, yeah, it's probably true, says According
to the Cowboy's History, the posse boasted up to three
hundred members in its heyday, and of course it was
(19:47):
led by Tom and Frank McClary as well as Johnny Ringo.
And if you've seen the movie, you know who Johnny
Ringo is. He's the one at the very end that
Doc Holliday supposedly shoots when he uses the pay famous line,
I'm your Huckleberry.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
According to this a number of petty incidents of horse
theft and retribution between the IRBs and the cowboys took
place between eighteen seventy nine, and then, of course the
shootout in eighteen eighty one, the bulk of which put
the mclary's and Clantons and other cowboys in a bad light.
In this piece in the La Times on the Clanton
Clan suggests though the Hollywood and even historians have gotten
(20:26):
it all wrong. Ike Clanton, for instance, the most demonized
figure in the story, ran a lunch counter, and Tom
McClary was unarmed at the time of the shootout.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
But was he there's some report to say was b
hand trick saying he was, but then other report said that,
you know, people said he was unarmed at again know
that he was armed, that Ike was unarmed, and that's
why Ike ran.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yes, Ike did run. Actually I think two of them ran. Yeah,
according to this, in the days leading up to the shootout,
the cowboys, namely Clanton, the IRBs, and Doc Hall, they
were all quite busy drinking and trading barbs and threats.
And you see this in the movie as well, where
they're in the saloon and they're you know, I'm gonna
shoot you and I'll get out of here, all this
(21:10):
big game stuff. But nobody really knows that that's actually
true or not.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
No, there's a few reports of them, I think playing
cards together and drinking together, but not like they show
in the movie where it was over days and stuff
like that, because that was the other thing in the movie.
The movie's timeline makes it seem like everything happened within
like three days. Yeah, but like the whole like Curly
Bill shooting the other Sheriff Frank whatever White, Sheriff White,
(21:40):
that happened a year before, and it was like they
were wrestling for his gun and he got shot in
the groin, it wasn't shot in the chest, and it
took him four days to die. But it's there's a
whole bunch of that stuff that they like compound like
it happened within like three days. So no, a lot
of this stuff was over a year, seven months, stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
So it was it festered, Yeah, And I think a
lot of it did happen when one or the other
group was drunk, because they all loved to drink. Doc
Holliday loved to drink. The cowboys loved to drink. The
cowboys knew the secret of the IRPs, you know, they
knew they weren't as innocent as the driven snow. They
(22:21):
knew there were problems there, and so there was this
sort of bravado thing going on back and forth for
quite a while. And then when something would come up,
the RPS would just assume, oh, well, that's the cowboys
out there doing their thing. And when something would happen
to the cowboys, they would just assume, oh, I was
the IRPs trying to get us back, or you know,
harassing us or whatever.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
And nobody knows if that actually happened or not. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
No, And that was the other thing too, is I
mean the town Like in the movie, it seems like
everybody loves the IRBs. They're great, they're amazing, they're all
the stuff. Everyone loves the IRBs. But if you actually,
like look at the history, a lot of town did
not like them and thought they were bullies and the
other ones even like one of the big things they
had a problem with too, is I think it was
Morgan and Virgil weren't technically they never got married. They
(23:11):
were common law, which a lot of people look down on,
like that was, you know, a bad thing that you know,
they hadn't actually got married, they were just common law married.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
In fact, I have a statement here from Sheriff John b.
Han and this was part of his testimony for the prosecution,
and he's talking about this incident. Now, he did give
testimony for the prosecution, but reading through his statement, I'm
not quite so sure they should have put him up
(23:42):
there because he was not a big fan as far
as I'm concerned, of the ERPs. Anyway, he said it
went down like this that at about two point thirty
on the day of the shooting, he was in the
barbershop heard of trouble between the Clantons and the IRPs.
Went over to Hatford's corner. I asked Virgil Irp the marshall,
(24:05):
what was the excitement. So there was a lot of
guys in town looking for a fight. He mentioned no names,
and I said to Irp, you'd better disarm the crowd.
He said he would not, but would give them a
chance to make a fight. Now that's interesting because the
rule in town was you were not allowed to bring
(24:27):
your guns into town. And here you have a concerned
citizen who's saying, hey, there's guys down there. They're all
armed and they're looking for a fight. You might want
to disarm them in Virgil's like, ah, let's see what
they do.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing and a lot of
the stuff, because I think at that point Virgil was
he knew that with the bad Blood. I think he
knew if him and Morgan and Why and all of
them walked up to these guys, that it wasn't gonna end. Well,
He's just like, hey, let's see what they do. At
that point, you know, I think from most things I read,
(25:05):
they were still inside the bar. They hadn't stepped out,
and I guess the rule was if you were in
the building, you were good. You just couldn't walk like
in public. You were supposed to check them at the bar.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Sheriff John Behan goes on and tells Virgil IRPs this
quote it is your duty as a peace officer to
disarm the parties, and then he says, I meant any
parties connected with the cowboys who had arms. Morgan, Irp
and Holiday were the ones I was talking to at
the intersection of Allen and Fourth. Virgil Irp had a shotgun.
(25:39):
I saw no other arms on the others. I then
went down Fourth Street to the corner of Fremont, across
the opposit side of the Fourth Street, and saw Frank
mclowry holding a horse and in conversation with somebody. I
told mclowry I would have to disarm him, that there
was likely to be some trouble in town, and I
proposed to disarm everybody that had an arm. He said
(26:01):
he would not give up his gun, that he didn't
intend to have any trouble. I insisted. In about that time,
I saw Clinton and Tom mclowry down the street below
Flies building and said, come with me and then it
goes on from there. So there were several people who
were trying to tamp this down and trying to control
(26:23):
the situation, not the IRPs and not the cowboys, which
I find interesting because according to legend and lore, well,
the Earths were just this sort of kind of innocent
party who stumbled, you know, upon the cowboys who ambushed
them in a way. But that's not how it went
down at all. They were given a lot of advanced
(26:45):
notice of what was pending and what was coming and
what was about to happen.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
Yeah, and I mean it was. Yeah, it never should
have been with the blood, the bad blood between both
of the like all three of those families. The Clinton's
the McLear, he's in the IRPs. The IRPs should never
been the ones that go down there to take.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
Care of this Virgil.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
As much as I like him in this story, he
could have deputized any number of people to go down
there and say, hey, fellas to the cowboys, let's take
this down a notch. We're gonna take the IRPs over there,
(27:27):
and you guys stay here, wait till every you're cooler
heads prevailed or whatever. But no, everybody was itching for
a fight According to this White irp described the Coacheees
County cowboys as lowlifes and cow thieves. Now, when this
all went down and shots were fired, another thing people
(27:50):
don't really take note of is when they're shooting pistols
in these rifles, they were not using like twenty two bullets,
and so they were still using gunpowder, you know, lead
balls and stuff. So there was a lot of smoke.
There was a huge haze while this was going on,
(28:12):
and it took a while for the smoke to clear.
And when it all cleared, you had some dead, others wounded,
and everybody was scattered. Town was silent, and then it
sort of started coming back to life. There were only
a few people who were in the know as to
really what went down. Regardless, the town mourned Billy Clanton
(28:38):
and Tom and Frank McClary. According to the other paper
in town, which was The Nugget, who gave an entirely
different perspective to this shootout, two three hundred people showed
up to pay their respects over the course of a
(28:58):
day long memorial.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Were the cowboys, Yeah, because when they went in, because
the corner was basically a sympathizer for the cowboys. So
when he get everything up, he put them in the
best coffins he had and put them up for every
one of you, so that everyone could come and pay
their respects.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
According to the piece from the Nugget, the funeral procession
wound for two blocks and was comprised of three hundred
people on foot, twenty two carriages and several men on horseback,
and a brass ban led the weight to the cemetery.
(29:39):
Now the cemetery where they were buried, it's called boot Hill.
You can still go there. You can still see all
their graves and so forth. And it's the reason they
called that is because a lot of people died with
their boots on and so forth. But outside of other
famous outlaws and legends that are buried there, old man Clanton,
which was the head of the clan and clan was there,
(30:02):
and all of the people who passed away or who
died during the Okay Corrau shootout. According to the movie,
these were terrible people the cowboys. Nobody liked them. Everybody
saw them as rough neck, drunk, no good lived out
(30:24):
of town, rode into town, caused problems men. But the
reality is is that the town was extremely divided as
to who was right and who was wrong, so much
so that, as we just said, two three hundred people
showed up in a procession to pay respects to these
(30:48):
men who were the cowboys, and had a brass band
lead them, you know, lead their bodies to be buried
up on boothill. That doesn't sound to me like group
of people that everyone here.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
No, it doesn't not at all.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
I mentioned the Nugget. There were two papers at the time,
you had the Tombstone Epipath, which I have a copy
of right here. It's a compilation from eighteen eighty one
of all the different stories they wrote in the Tombstone
Epipath about this whole thing, from the shooting to the trial,
to the verdict and all of that. It's all the
(31:25):
different stories in their original form. The other one in
town was The Nugget. It's really funny because if you
read history on these papers, and I've come across this
several times, and I hate to bring politics into this,
(31:45):
but I have to because this is how it's presented
multiple times that the Epithath, the Tombstone Epipath was founded
by Republicans John P. Clum and Thomas Saum and another
guy named Charles Reppi. The newspaper's name had a lot
(32:08):
of people joking that because of its its being called
the Epithath, it would be dead within a year, but
that wasn't the case. It's actually still there to this day.
You can go see the old press and they do
runoff papers for the i say, tourists and stuff. It's
quite fascinating. The Epithaph definitely aligned themselves with the IRPs.
(32:30):
Reading through this and reading the account that the Epitaph
laid out of this, they are one hundred percent on
the side of the IRPs, no doubt. And apparently they
were taking a lot of money from the mining interests
in town, those who wanted positive press about the silver mines,
(32:51):
the lawyers, the businessmen and all of that. Now, in contrast,
the Nugget was a democratic paper that championed the cowboys,
and they championed the cowboys in their covers of the
gunfight and against Holiday and the ERPs. In fact, one
(33:13):
of the articles in the Battles Aftermath, the writer Strange Credulity,
claiming that the Clanton Boys, known for stealing cattle and
indiscriminately waving their weapons around quote generally conducted themselves in
a quiet and orderly manner when in Tombstone, Yeah, which
we know that's not true. So both papers had an
(33:38):
axe to grind. They both took aside. They both were
trying to whitewash a tomb That's really the only way
to put it.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Can we trust either paper? Again?
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I think when it comes down to the facts, which
is interesting because I did look at the actual reporting
from the nugget of just the event, just the shootout,
and it's the same as the epitaph. The people who
were there, who drew first, who got shot, who went
(34:12):
through the windows, all that stuff, they're exactly the same,
because you can't really deviate from that in a town
like that, because there were those who were standing right there.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Yeah, inside they knew.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
It's the the story outside the story where these guys
all either lean left or right accordingly. I don't think
it's really Republican Democrat, honestly, but I think it's they
picked a side and they went with it.
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
And was it because of money, was it because of sympathy?
Was it?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
We don't really know. But that's something that has never
ever changed. Now, So if you're living in Tombstone. You're
on the other side of town. You hear about this
thing that went down. It's the talk of the entire
higher town and you're hearing people talk about it. And
then you go and you pick up the epitaph. Well
(35:05):
you get one side of the story and all the
eyewitnesses and their comments, and then you go over and
you pick up the nugget, you get a completely different story.
So I think a lot of people in Tombstone were
very confused.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
I think.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
So it's like you see now, it depends on where
you get your news.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
Exactly. And that's I think that is. That's awful.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
It is, And that's one thing I've tried to explain
to people a couple of times. It's like you see
what you want to see because you go to specific
news sites that tell you what you want to hear.
And that's kind of like here, we're all of a sudden.
If you were reading you know, one of the papers,
you were all for the cowboys because it painted them
that way, and all the facts and information that you
(35:52):
had said to the cowboys were you know, the herbs
were bullies and they did this. But if you read
the other paper, the other way around.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Well, it also goes to this idea of.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Dishonest law men and just guys who are just you know,
quietly obeying the law, coming in mining their own business,
and all of a sudden being put upon by the law.
Because that was the other say narrative here. That became
a really big talking point and a bit of contention
(36:30):
amongst the town folks, where people were beginning to take
sides as to whether the Earps were good law men
or they were bad. Should we have them here? You know,
did they overstep their bounds? And then others like, well, no,
they were forced into it. They had to. They have
to uphold the law in order to keep you know,
(36:51):
stibility and so forth. And we have that same thing today.
We have that very same debate going on today. Because
here's the thing. The IRPs were no angels.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
No, they.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Manipulated, they lied, They had done bad things before they
got there. In fact, Wyatt had a long history of gambling.
He was a buffalo hunter at one time. He was
on the wrong side of the law multiple times.
Speaker 6 (37:25):
Yeah, best for horse wrestling.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
Yeah, he did all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
He was no saint, no, and he was deputized, you know,
during this time, he wasn't even an elected or hired
on law man, which you could do back then. We've
all seen the movies, we've all read the books, I think,
where the sheriff is about to get overwhelmed, so he
(37:50):
goes and finds his best men in town. I hereby
deputize you.
Speaker 5 (37:54):
You are.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Now we're working on behalf of the city of whatever,
and it's a temporary thing, just to kind of restore
law and order.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Yeah, you're gonna help us out for a bit, and
then it's it.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
According to this one article that I was reading, I
thought it was interesting, says this Civil War vet was
the real hero of the Ok Corral shootout. It was like, well,
who could this be? And this is once again Virgil irp.
A lot of people want to give Virgil this heroes hat,
(38:33):
and I find that interesting. According to this Virgil, after
his eighteenth birthday, joined the Union Army. He fell in love,
fathered a child, and so forth. When the Civil War
broke out, he went to the eighty third Illinois Infantry.
After he returned home from the war, his wife and
daughter vanished with the new man, and he didn't know
(38:57):
what to do. He was heartbroke, everything was gone. So
that's when he decided to reunite with Wyatt and Morgan
and they met Doc Holliday in Dodge City, Kansas, and
after not too long, he was informed that Coachies County
down in Prescott, Arizona were having problems with these cowboys,
(39:18):
and so he decided to go down there. So then
the US Marshall over Arizona appointed Virgil as the Marshall
of Tombstone in the district of Pima County. According to him,
his main goal was to stop all the coach robbers
that occurred between Prescott and Tombstone. And I think the
reason everybody has this soft spot for Virgil is because
his wife and daughter disappeared and then they would eventually
(39:40):
cross paths later and her name.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
Was Ellen, and this was when he was an old man.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
He came across his wife and his daughter, and everyone's like,
there wasn't any bad blood between them, and he was
happy to meet the three grandkids he never knew existed,
so a lot of people because he survived it, he
was kind of quiet he was the marshall. But I
don't I think Virgil actually made some mistakes in this
whole thing as well. Oh yeah, I don't think he
(40:10):
was completely the hero. I think he maybe did some
heroic stuff. But let's talk about some of the ladies
that were involved in this, because I think this is interesting.
There's always some ladies at the heart of this. According
to this article, the Ok Corral gunmen were obviously called
for characters, but the women with whom they kept company
(40:30):
were just as noteworthy. Take, for instance, Big Nose Kate Horny,
the daughter of a Hungarian doctor. She was orphaned and
working as a prostitute in Texas, and then she met
Doc Holliday in eighteen seventy five. Later, when Holiday was
arrested for killing a bully during a card game, she
(40:53):
set the jail on fire as a distraction and sprang
her man. And she's also if you see the movie,
she's in that movie.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
Yeah, it's her. It's his good.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Friend, Wyatt Earp. He moved to Tombstone with a lady
named Mattie Blaylock, who was a prostitute from Dodge City.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
Well, that was one of interesting thing with I was
reading everything about like Wyatt Earp. You know, he was
arrested for pimping like four times. Yes, they had to
make money somehow, and that was the thing with Mattie
is one of the things I found. Basically it said
that Maddie basically like he got arrested and him and
(41:35):
her both got arrested, and she said she was his wife.
And that's pretty much how she became as common law life.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Yeah, to avoid bigod shamed and all that stuff. Yeah,
but the problem with her was she was addicted to
this what they called laudanum yep, which I didn't I'd
never heard of it, but it was apparently some sort
of liquid heroine.
Speaker 6 (41:56):
Yeah, it was basically opioids. It was what they used
for like painkiller basically, but it became kind of a
It's supposed to be an occasional painkiller, but a lot
of people like her would just.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Well she did die later of an overdose from it.
Then there was a ground named Josephine Sadie Marcus, who
was a former actress and at the time the companion
of the county sheriff, Johnny Bahan. Marcus eventually left a
sheriff for IRP, unbeenounced to Blaylock, whom IRP had sent
(42:30):
to California to wait out the violence. Brewing in Tombstone.
This Josephine Marcus and Rp remained together the rest of
their lives, and it's because of Marcus that Irp is
thought of as the hero he is today. There's also
Luisa Houston, Irp Morgan's wife, and she was the granddaughter
(42:50):
of Sam Houston. If you know anything about Texas and
the city of Houston, Sam Houston is a legend. There
was also Ali Irp, wife to Virgil, who never left
her husband side. She loved to be ninety eight. Now,
the interesting thing about this, in my opinion, is this
Josephine Marcus. Because Josephine Marcus and Whyatt Earp, in a
(43:16):
lot of ways, were the lone survivors to tell this story.
They ended up in Hollywood and they were retelling all
these tales. They had the cliffhangers that kids would go
to the movies and see every week. And Wyatt Earp's
character played a major role, and any book that was
(43:36):
written about Wyatt Earp had to go through her. She's
also the one who would go and set up interviews
with newspapers to tell these great tales of Wyatt. Wyatt
ended up on the set of a lot of these
movies as a i'll say a controller, somebody who would
oversee what was going on to make sure his character
(43:58):
look good. He told the story and how it was
acted out on the screen was accurate according to him.
Speaker 6 (44:06):
Yeah. See, And that's what we said earlier about how
like the history of this is who lived the longest
tell the story, and that's kind of how it comes
into why and Josephine lived longer than the rest of them,
so the story came from them, and I think that's
why why it becomes the hero, this huge hero and
all the stories.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Absolutely, and again this is something we can all learn
from because we've been taken to task before bringing this
kind of stuff up about quote great American heroes. Now,
two things can be true at the same time. Yes,
you can do amazing things, and you can also either
(44:50):
have a checkered pass or be a not so great
person while you're doing a great thing. We can look
at Trump, we can look at Trump on that and
a lot of figures throughout our history MLK, JFK, some
of the great leaders of America, and we could expand
that around the world and around the globe. A lot
(45:13):
of people who did amazing things were not that amazing
in their personal lives.
Speaker 6 (45:21):
Yeah. Well, and I think the big problem that you
run into is people immediately it's got to be one
or the other. It's one of the big arguments. You
see a lot just to bring some like Adolf Hitler.
Nobody if you said anything that Adolf Hitler was good,
it's a horrible thing. It's like, no, he actually did
some things that were very intelligent and smart during the war.
(45:42):
Everything else he did was completely wrong and he was
a horrible person. But that doesn't mean he didn't do
some things that were good in a way. It's the
same thing like we always talk about Kazinski and his
you know, his manifesto. If you tell people that the
manifestos from Ted because it's most people were agree with it.
But the second they know it's his, oh, this is
(46:04):
all garbage and horrible. It's like he did horrible things.
He had some good ideas.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
There's a person named Mary Doria Russell, and she wrote
a book called Epitaph, a novel of the Ok Corral,
which I thumbed through while I was there. I didn't
purchase it because I didn't have time, and I'll get.
Speaker 5 (46:23):
It at some point.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
But one of the things I found very interesting was
and I found an article where they were talking to
her about this, about her book and everything, and she
says that the shootout at the Okay Corral was not
a simple tale of good versus evil, but a nuanced
conflict driven by personal agendas and political rivalries. In her book,
(46:48):
she tries to, according to her appeal all this back
and sort of give all the nuances and every kind
of like we've done here. What I find interesting, though,
is that a lot of people don't want to hear this.
We see this even to this day. Everything is black
and white, good and evil, hero villain, And I think
(47:12):
in a lot of.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
Ways, we've always been there.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
You can go back to the fairy tales, you can
go back to a lot of the Egyptian stories. There
always has to be good versus evil, good and bad
hero and villain. Does that happen, of course it does.
There are good people and bad people, there are good
things and bad things. But there are times when you're
(47:38):
not there, you didn't see it, and you're getting the
stories from multiple angles. It's going through so many different
lenses and filters, and I think part of today is
we can't. I don't know if we'll ever get to
this point again, because now if any story hits imediately,
(48:01):
there's multiple angles, there's conspiracies, there's nobody's telling the truth.
This only this person's telling the truth, but we can't
trust them because of that, and so it's really hard
to get to I'll just say the crux and the
reality and the truth of the matter. Whereas back then,
in some simple way, this allowed people to sort of
(48:26):
digest this. Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, did you
hear about what happened in Tombstone? Know what happened? Well,
the laymen and the cowboys shot it out? Oh who
won the law man?
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (48:37):
Cool, you know, without knowing the entire story. And I'm
kind of, you know, kind in the middle of this
because one thing I really hate that we're going through
in our lifetime is this idea of well, i'll just
take you're like wicked. So I'm a big fan of
the Wizard of Oz, huge fan, read all the books,
(49:00):
love it. But this idea that the there can't be
a bad character because they're not really bad because you
have to understand how they got there or what drove
them there, and they're not really bad, they're just acting
out based on other bad people that did bad things
to that. Like, it just goes on and on and on.
It's this sort of relativism. And I know that's a
(49:25):
fantasy story, but I think Frank Elbaum would roll in
his grave if he knew what they were doing to
his his.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Story of good and evil.
Speaker 6 (49:34):
Basically, yeah, because there's no good in evil. There's just
different shades of gray.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
Right, And and I know people a gonna go, yeah,
but that's what you're talking about with this story right here.
Actually it's not what we really want. And I think
what all of mankind really longs for.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Is the truth. Yeah, tell the truth.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Oh yeah. And I think the hardest part is with Hollywood,
and this is where a lot of people make the mistakes.
And I mentioned this and other things. When you see
these movies like Tombstone that are based on a true story,
they are loosely based. I mean considering you know, when
I did the ed Geen I talked about the fact
that technically Texas Chainsaw massacre is based off ed Gean
(50:23):
and is based off a true story. But the only
thing that's similar is he skinned people and made it
into a mask, which really ed Gan just made dresses
and had the nipple belt. I mean, that's the whole
based on you know, the rest of it's all wrong.
And that's the thing with Tombstone is it's you know,
it's based on there's some parts that are really close,
(50:45):
like the gun the gun fights close, you know, the
whole thing, like you mentioned earlier, Johnny Ringo. If you
actually look up Johnny Ringo, they say he died from suicide.
All the other stories are basically maybe, you know, wired
IRB said this happened. Doc Holiday said he did it.
There's like three other people that all say they did it.
But when they find him, found him the only you know,
(51:07):
he's gonna been discharged once and the bullet wound is
consistent with it as suicide. Possibly could be, who knows.
But that's the thing with a lot of this stuff.
It's a lot better story that Doc Holliday came out
of you know and got him in a gunfight. But
in all honesty, most people don't realize too. If you
read up on Doc Holiday, he supposed it was a
(51:27):
horrible shot.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
Well he was drunk all the time, Oh yeah, and
he had all kinds of physical ailments. Yes, so you know,
maybe Wyatt would have been the one if I had
to say, oh, somebody else did it, But again we
don't know, we weren't there.
Speaker 5 (51:44):
But I do love a good story. I do. I love.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
Somebody who can spin a yarn. I like telling a
good story. And we all at times when we have
a good story going. I don't want to say embellish,
but we make some things about the story more important
than others to tell a good story.
Speaker 5 (52:09):
Same thing with your comedy.
Speaker 6 (52:11):
Yeah, you add a little bit of into it to
get it going.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Yeah, add a little bit of flair. Now. You know.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Sometimes people get in trouble for that because they add
too much, or they make a claim they can't back up,
or whatever, especially if they're in the position of say
politician or a pastor or something like that, and they
should be held accountable for that because you can't be
spinning big yarns. But if you are a storyteller, or
you're telling a story through a movie or through comedy
(52:40):
or whatever, we all should understand that. With this incident
right here, of all the things that happen in the West,
and a lot of great stuff happen there's a lot
of great stories about like the Alamo, and you can
go on and on the ok Corral shootout. For all
(53:05):
of it supposed to glory and this idea, the sort
of romanticized version of what it was like to live
during this time where la men took care of the
women and the bad guys would ride into town and
so forth. I'm sure it happened here there. It didn't
happen here, but yet that's what this has come to symbolize.
(53:28):
And I still just kind of scratch my head and
I don't get it now. And here's so here's a
little tip for all of you. If you've never been
to Tombstone, it is absolutely worth your time to go there.
It is a fantastic trip back in time, and they
have done a great job there keeping it that way.
(53:51):
There's a lot of things to do there, and I'm
just gonna give you a little hint about some things
that are worth your time and things that you could
just skip or if you really want to do it,
I'm just going to tell you they're not that great.
One is the Silver Mine. I mean, if you're really
into silver minds or whatever, fine, I think it's a
waste of time. There are two reenactments of the Okay Corral.
(54:16):
One of them is the official reenactment, and they do
it just like you see in the movie. There's another
one that's just a few blocks away, which is not
technically the shootout at the ok Corral. They just call
it the Great Western Shootout or something. And heads up,
they're actually telling you the true story over there. They
(54:39):
don't use any names. You don't see Doc Holiday, and
you don't see the IRPs, and you don't see any
of the cowboys, but the reenactment of this shootout in
this town, through what they're doing, they actually tell the
real story and it's quite fascinating.
Speaker 5 (54:59):
To to watch that.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
Yeah, there's also a thing in town which is it's
really old school by today's standards, but it's this theater
and it's about twenty minutes and it's narrated by Vincent Price,
and it is absolutely fantastic. And if you're really into
(55:22):
history and you really want to understand what happened in
Tombstone as a town, not just the Okay Corral, but
how it came to be, what happened, the flooding of
the mines, how big it got at one point, how
it basically became a ghost town and all this stuff,
how it became too tough to die. I can't recommend
(55:43):
it enough. It is fantastic. Now there's a lot of
places there that will tell you also that they are
the original building. I think there's only one, and I
do believe it's actually the rebuilt version of the theater
in town. Big those kates like Vaudeville Theater or something
(56:05):
like that, don't go on any of the ghost tours,
you know, those are all take In fact, it's funny
because Brandon and I have been on ghost ghost hunts.
They you could rent from them, Brandon, those little whatever
meters that supply, yes, you could rent one from them
(56:27):
and go on these And if you know anything about
EMF meters, those are frauds of the highest standard.
Speaker 6 (56:35):
You just got to get close to anything electrical and
they're gonna go nuts.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
So anyway, it's it's a full day's worth of if
you're just gonna, you know, jump down there. I would
be there, you know, fair early in the morning, plan
to stay till five or six. A lot of places
to eat. It is fantastic. I can't recommend it enough.
And do go to the reenactments and wander around town.
The other thing I thought was funny. I've never seen
(57:01):
this before either one of the stores there, you could
rent a cowboy hat for the day and a mocked pistol,
So you could wear a cowboy hat and have a
holster with a I assume it's a cap gun, pistol
or whatever and walk around like the cowboys did, which
(57:22):
I thought was quite funny.
Speaker 6 (57:24):
That is because that's one thing you will never see
me rent no hat, because that's the argament I've gotten
into its safety where there was like a job set
it was on and there was like they just each shift,
there was just one basic hard hat and they just
handed to the next guy. And I'm like, yeah, no,
I'll go buy my own.
Speaker 5 (57:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (57:45):
I wouldn't even do that and wear like a a
plastic cap on my head.
Speaker 6 (57:49):
And do it.
Speaker 5 (57:50):
Okay. So what did we learn today that we can apply.
Speaker 6 (57:56):
Don't trust the media absolutely one.
Speaker 5 (58:00):
That's number one.
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Neither of these papers are trustworthy in any way, shape
or form. And they were all influenced by outside money
and outside forces that had some sort of agenda.
Speaker 6 (58:12):
No, that never happens, So that has never changed.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Also, you have the right pr person. You have the
right person, you go somewhere. And it's a little harder
now with digital and Facebook and all kinds of social media.
But if you have the right person with you, or
you're really good at it, you can go somewhere and
reestablish yourself and tell all kind of great tales about
(58:40):
yourself that people can't check out. And you could be
a hero rolling into a town, which is what happened
to Wyatt. He would send her ahead to towns, like
a day or so in advance to get this stuff
written about him, and he would write in as a hero,
get free drinks, get a free room. So why you
(59:00):
ended up in Hollywood?
Speaker 6 (59:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (59:04):
And it was all fake. And you know, I do
have a little bit of sympathy for the cowboys in
the sense that I'm sure they weren't great people. But
you know, at the same time, did they deserve to die?
Did they? Or were they really there to kill the IRBs?
All indications are now they were there to settle some
(59:28):
sort of grievances that they had.
Speaker 5 (59:31):
It did get out of hand and then everybody was shooting.
Was it great?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
No?
Speaker 4 (59:37):
It makes for a great story, and it makes for
a great movie, but in reality, who we're all supposed
to believe were just these really bad guys who were
picking on the poor lawmen. Well you heard it. Half
the town or more were on their side, mourned them,
and it became a big debate. Yeah, I think it's
(59:59):
interest thing. Will we ever get to the truth of Tombstone? No,
because they're all dead and I don't think they would
have told it even if they were here.
Speaker 6 (01:00:08):
No, No, I mean they all. I mean it's like
anything you're going to tell the story that makes you
look the best, and.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
It's getting even harder with the aim.
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
I mean they even I mean there was a trial.
I mean there was. There wasn't a full trial. There
was like a setup for grand jury, and the judge
didn't do it mainly, and it sounds mainly because one
of the McCleary brothers was a lawyer and he wanted
the death penalty and he wanted to take anything less.
Speaker 5 (01:00:36):
Yeah, and they were going to do that, and.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
Then they put Ike on the stand and Ikes had
a bunch of really really bad like stuff that didn't
even make sense, and they're like, yeah, you're a bad witness.
Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Well, no town at that time was going to hang
their law men unless there was overwhelming evidence that they
had done something horrendously wrong, because that was set a
massively bad precedent. Oh yeah, to be like executing the
chief of police of Dallas or something over a disagreement
(01:01:10):
with somebody. I know they shot and I know people
got killed. And unfortunately, that was a bit of the
way of life.
Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
Back then.
Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
It was very common, and so it's not like today
where it's like, I can't believe this guy in office
shot somebody. It was pretty common back then.
Speaker 6 (01:01:27):
Now it was. I mean, it's unfortunately how you dealt
with things.
Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
Oh for the days, all right, everybody, If you have
any questions on the Okay Corral fiasco or you have
some insights, I mean, it's a very deep subject when
you get into it. There's a lot of stuff we
didn't even get to or weren't able to cover. But
I think you understand where we're going with this, especially
(01:01:56):
comparing it to what we're going through today. When you
hear something, you hear about an incident, or you hear
about something that is supposed to be monumental or whatever
it is, it doesn't matter what angle is coming from.
Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
From the press. They're probably not telling you the truth.
Speaker 6 (01:02:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
I don't know that that will ever be corrected. I
don't know if we'll ever get past that. But it's
been going on for a long time, it continues on today,
and it's something that you really need to pay attention
to and consider before you just jump in and accept
what you're being told by any news agency or even
(01:02:37):
something even sometimes the people who participated in said event.
Speaker 6 (01:02:41):
Yeah, I mean, do your research look into some things,
because I mean, that's one thing that I find so
much is half truth and just people saying, oh, yeah, yeah,
this is what happened because this news article said it,
and then you go and look at it. I mean, heck,
the BBC just had their main per and pretty much
step down because they found out that they were cutting
(01:03:04):
and pasting to make things seem the way they wanted
them to.
Speaker 5 (01:03:08):
Yeah, and how long have they been doing that in
to how many people?
Speaker 6 (01:03:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Right, that opens that door, so you'll always always be
careful with that.
Speaker 5 (01:03:16):
All right, I've got the midweek.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
I will be with you then, and Brandon, I will
say right now to those of you in the United States,
Happy Thanksgiving. Take a moment out I know it's stressful,
stressful time.
Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
We all have hardships.
Speaker 4 (01:03:31):
Life isn't easy at times, but it is very refreshing
for the soul to take a moment on Thanksgiving Day,
and it should be every day, but especially Thanksgiving, and
just be thankful for another year.
Speaker 5 (01:03:46):
You're here, You've survived it.
Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
Take a breath, take a breather, Be thankful for the
things you have, Be thankful for where you're at, Be
thankful for your friends and your family around you, and
you'll gear up for another year.
Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
Email us down the RH at ProtonMail dot com. Down
the r H at ProtonMail dot com. I'm Big D.
Speaker 6 (01:04:13):
And I'm Brandon. We're out of here, Silea.
Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
the Fringe Radio Network. I know I was gonna tell them, Hey,
do you have the app?
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
It's the best way to listen to the Fringe Radio Network.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
It's safe and you don't have to log in to
use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
and it sounds beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I know I was gonna tell him, how do you
get the app?
Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Right at the top of the page.
Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
I know, slippers. We gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.
Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
Six
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.