Widespread Panic or Widespread Programming? - Unrefined Podcast

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In this episode, Brandon, Lindsy and cohost Jennifer Parks dive into the history and fallout of the 1980s “Satanic Panic,” focusing on the rise and fall of Christian comedian Mike Warnke. They unpack how Warnke’s book The Satan Seller and testimony about being a former Satanic high priest helped spark nationwide hysteria—and how later investigations unraveled parts of his story, leading to his public disgrace. The trio explores the broader cultural forces at play, from media manipulation and government psyops to church fear-mongering, and reflect on how believers treat fallen heroes. The conversation weaves humor, empathy, and insight into fear-based religion, false memory syndrome, and grace in the aftermath of failure.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts. You are listening to
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(00:27):
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Just go to Fringe radionetwork dot com right at the
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Speaker 1 (00:37):
I know, slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
On every episode, not just the hits. Join the Unrefined
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(01:15):
He would say, if Satan can't stop you, he will
push you too far. Thank you for joining me on
the Unrefined Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Spain along with

(01:37):
Lindsay Waters, where each week we delve into the mysteries
that shape our world, from the tangible to the supernatural,
with the foundation rooted in biblical truth. For more content
and exclusive resources, visit us at Unrefined podcast dot Com.
Now let's dive into this week's episode. Hey, hey, hey,

(02:01):
you guys, we are back for another fun feeld exciting episode. Actually,
this is kind of a new thing we're doing here,
and I want to introduce somebody special to us. She's
been a sponsor for our show. So from time to
time you're going to hear another voice joining the conversation,
someone who's here to shake up our usual rhythm with
a fresh take. We welcome Jennifer Parks to the show.

(02:23):
Thank you Jim for joining us.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yes, thank you. I'm honored. I'm honored to be a
part of this. I've listened to podcasts obsessively as I've
talked about previous episode, but and listening to you guys,
the whole catalog and everything. I am honored to be
a part of it and be here and record.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Both of you. But we're glad that you're on board. Yep, yep.
So today, everybody out there in podcast land, we are
tackling this is really kind of an interesting story here.
It started off pretty narrow. We were going to tackle
the Satanic panic, but we were going to hone mostly

(03:00):
in on Mike Warnkey and focus in on his aspects
that if you don't know who he is, we'll explain
that in a few minutes, and we're going to go
into that first. It's something that people they throw that
term around all over the place. Some people know what
it means. If you're a Gen xer or above, you
definitely know what it means. But a lot of the
younger millennials and unless you've been in these circles, you

(03:21):
might not know what it is. And there's just all
kinds of myths, there's perspectives, and what we're going to
do today is we're just going to dive in and
poke around and see what we come up with. And
I just want to disclaim that we're going to be
putting out a lot of facts, but then there's gonna
be some speculation here, but we're going to have fun
with it. And I think it's important for people to
know about this, and particularly when it occurred in the eighties.

(03:44):
And I just find it really interesting too, because the
Stranger Things is in the eighties and that's when all
this was going on anyway, and there's a big impetus
back to the eighties. So we just want to dive
right in. Let's start with Mike Warnkey. Jin you've done
a lot of research about him, you want to just
dive in and let's talk about him and discuss what's

(04:04):
up with that? Absolutely why you were interested in him?

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yes, So I grew up in the seventies, eighties, nineties.
This topic appealed to me because one not a lot
of people are talking about it, but as a Christian
and in the church, in American Christianity at that time,
Mike Warnkey was a big deal. And what I found

(04:28):
in researching is a lot of people blame him or
associate him with the beginning or the cause of Satanic
panic kind of where we are today. But for me
growing up, Mike Warnkey was kind of a hero. And
I'll explain a little bit. Mike Warnkey he was a
stand up comedian in the seventies, eighties and then the

(04:51):
early nineties, and you'll see why he stopped being that.
So I think to foreshadow this, I think important question
and be thinking about this and we'll come back to it,
is what do we do with our heroes? As a Christian?
How do we treat our heroes? And what do we do?
So he was a stand up comedian and really stand

(05:12):
up comedy was kind of coming into its own and
for me, I think in the eighties was kind of
the big heyday when it busted out. But you had
you had people like George Carlin as a stand up
comic and it was so was pretty new. But as
a Christian, I don't know, we get kind of this
weird thing that, oh, there's a person that's famous and

(05:34):
popular there, Now Christianity is valid because this guy's really good,
and we get we get weird like that, right, we think, oh,
this famous person is being to come a Christian. Now,
now it's good. Now I can stand with courage or whatever.
It's a weird thing we get. But Mike Gornky was there,
and he was considered because he was probably the only

(05:55):
Christian that is doing this, but considered the greatest Christian
stand up comedian world. He would fill stadiums of people
and he was very successful at it. So just to
give you a little bit of a story how he
got started in this, he authored a book called The
Satan Cellar in seventy two and it was about what

(06:15):
he says or his experiences of being a Satanic high
priest in the sixties. A little bit more backstory here.
His mother died in fifty five and his father died
in fifty eight, and it left him an orphan at eleven.
His father was also a bit of a filanderer. His

(06:35):
parents never had a good relationship. They never had a close,
positive marriage to demonstrate to him. And then he was
an orphan and was raised by some aunts down south,
and then was moved to California and raised by the
cousins or sister, I've forgetten which one. So he had

(06:57):
a tumultuous childhood, definitely. He toured with more Cerullo, and
some of you way back may remember him, and he's
still doing stuff now, but he was a popular preacher
at the times. Yeah, an evangelists and do seminars and
all those kinds of things. And I remember my mom
had cassette tapes. Y'all were going way back to cassette days.

(07:19):
Oh yeah, not a track, but yeah, yeah. So she
had cassette tapes of Moris Sorillo. And I think we
went to a conference of his or something. I was
young enough, my mom just drug me along everywhere. But
he toured with more Soirillo, and this was kind of
around the same time that he wrote the Satan Cellar.
But they had this bus that they would tour around

(07:40):
this van and it had what they said were artifacts
and examples of Satanic things, items that would be used
in Satanic worship or would be part you know, used
in a coven or whatever. He had those different kinds
of artifacts in the van and they toured around. Then Yeah,

(08:01):
then there was some kind of parting of the ways.
I don't know the full story, but basically they split
and Morenkey said, you can't use any of my material,
you can't use any of my information. I'm out, and
so went on to pursue his own career as a
very successful stand up comedian. And I one thing I

(08:23):
really liked about this is that I was able to
go back and they're on YouTube, Mike Quaranty and his
live performances. So the first one he did was alive,
and then there was the next one. I forget what
to order these tour in, but hey, doc which documents
is his experiences in Vietnam as a medic for the

(08:45):
Marine Corps. And there was another one Jester in a
King's Court, And so those are the sometimes familiar with.
There were some that were after that time, but I
didn't listen to those. But I'm telling you, listening to
all these things, I just remember it was like these
must have been a good part of the soundtrack of
my growing up. And there's one and I was thinking

(09:05):
about this the other day and the one that just
came up into my mind, and it comes up to
him into my mind a lot. He tells a story
he's become a believer and he's trying to do a
Bible study and he's reading Good Old King James. And
he goes to do this first Bible study for the
first time, and he starts to pray, and he's talking
to people and he says, well and good Old King
James English, well blessed Goddith, we're so as happy at

(09:27):
that you were here with today. I to join the
thall and the whole meeting is like that, and just
fell flat. And so he said, I went back back
to my room and I talked to God and I said, God,
what are you doing wrong? And he said, God looked
down at me and said, not meeth, youth. And and
so I think of that all the time, that there's

(09:49):
so many gems in there, you guys, it is well
worth listening listening to us. He was a great comedian.
He was a wonderful comedian, especially a forerunner. Now he
may have which is very bad in the stand up
comedy world. He may have taken some jokes from other
people like him. Yeah, why do you drive in a

(10:11):
parkway and park in a driveway? Who actually did that first?
I don't know. I didn't dig into that.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
But they've been doing that for years. I mean, all
the big, big ones go to little small ones and
they steal their jokes and come back.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yeah, so who knows, Yeah, who knows where he got it?
It was very highly profitable. But a big part of
his testimony big Key was his testimony of being a
Satanic high priest and a drug dealer and a user
before he was saved in boot camp. The story about
how he got saved in boot camp, the barrack said
he was assigned to there would be three people in it,

(10:46):
and that he was there, and then two of the
people who were assigned with him in the same location
were believers, and so they would try to tell him
all the time about Jesus. He like, I don't want
to hear it. I don't want to hear you know,
and you'd like tear up their bibles and he'd get
mad at them and just persecuted them for preaching to them. Essentially,

(11:07):
he tells us one story where he's lying in bed,
he's trying to relax in the barracks and the two
guys they go outside and they sit down underneath the
window and they're polishing their shoes and they go write
polish in their boots and then and then they stop.
There's no sound, and he said in the silence got loud,

(11:29):
and he leans closer and closer to the window, and
then one of the guys said, did you know Jesus
died for our sins? And the other guy says, why no,
tell me about it. And so it was that kind
of presentation. But they were on him all the time.
And that's part of how the story of how he
got saved. So there's a lot to it. And one

(11:49):
of the big keys I was saying, what he would
say is testimony that he would share is how he
was a Satanist high priest, and he gives like the
time period and before he went to boot camp, and
he talks about how he looked, his physical description and
lots of those things, giving lots of different details, and
then going to boot camp, becoming a Christian and going

(12:12):
to military and then coming back and his continuing ministry
after that. So that was a big part of it.
He was talking about this, Look, there's this world out there.
There are Satanic rituals being performed. There are Satanists all
over the place. You don't know about. It could be
your friend, it could be your neighbor, it could be
somebody down the street that you've known your whole life.

(12:34):
And this is what they do. And this is hidden
and this is behind the scenes. You don't know about it,
but it's there all right.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Jim, about what year did it start when he did
the comedian stuff or did the Satanic ministry type stuff
start before he did the comedian stuff.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
They were all together, they were.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
All together, Okay.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
Yeah, I wrote the Teller and then he started doing
the stand up.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
So this is probably what in the mid seventies so
early seventies.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
Book was published in seventy two, okay, and just shortly
after that. And what he would do is he would
tell those stories and he would incorporate his experience into
that as you're kind of being disarmed and persuaded with humor.
I think humor is a great thing, great equalizer, and
it connects people. And so he would use a lot

(13:21):
of humor and he would tell his story his testimony
with the humor, and he would include the Satanic stuff.
There would be different things that would come out, but
basically it was the same story arc throughout his life,
with the little details changing. But it was. It was
seventies and then eighties, and I think eighties is when
it really started to ramp up. And we'll get into

(13:42):
more because it tied much more into the Satanic Panic.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
So do you think that and this is your personal opinion.
I mean, it's really non empirical way for us to
pree this, but do you think that he was the
main instigator of the whole Satanic Panic thing? Or do
you think there was just like a convergence of things.

Speaker 4 (14:03):
That's a tough one. I think a lot of people,
I said, listening to a lot of people. So what
I did to prepare for this I went back and
watched all those things on YouTube and then I pulled
up I just searched on my podcast app to find
people talking about Mike Warnky, all different kinds of stories,
and the majority of people that I've listened to, the
majority of people talking about it were making fun of him. Yeah, hostile, hostile,

(14:29):
and basically saying, is him he did it. He brought
this out here to the forefront and made everybody worried
about it, and then things just piled on to it.
I don't know, it's hard. It's hard to know he
did bring it out, but the reaction and all the
things to happen, I think it was probably more of
a convergence. But I think he was also trying to

(14:49):
share important information. So yeah, I was gonna say.

Speaker 5 (14:57):
The sort of patient zero I found I didn't look
much into Wernickey was a book called Michelle Remembers. Yes,
it was written by a woman named Michelle Smith, and
Lawrence passed her her psychiatrist and later her husband. We'll

(15:17):
get into that later. That's one of the things they
used to try to discredit it. But anyway, the psychiatrist
starts seeing a patient up in Victoria, British Columbia, and
he hypnotizes her and she starts going over these memories,
and you know, some of it seems to have not
been true, like some of the things she claims would

(15:42):
have been very difficult in a cemetery the way the
cemetery was laid out. And then of course later her
and Lawrence Pasder divorced their spouses and married each other.
So people use that as kind of a guilt association
thing to say, we'll see they do that, that must
mean the whole thing's not true. But kid doesn't. That

(16:04):
doesn't prove the story wasn't true. But yeah, that's another warranty,
and that is kind of just if you just look
at the Wikipedia page, the first line here, Michelle Remembers
is a discredited nineteen eighty book co written by Canadian
psychiatrist Lawrence Pasder and his psychiatric patient and eventual wife

(16:28):
parentheses Michelle Smith. So yeah, from the get go, they're
trying to discredit it, and it's like, you know, if
it's so easy to discredit, why can't you just let
that come out in the the article? Why do you
got to come out of the gate swinging like that?

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, what I find interesting, And then this can kind
of take a little sidebar, little rabbit here. But the
interesting thing to me, and I don't know if it's
in this case, but in later cases, as we get
into the Satanic panic. The people that are discrediting these
things are sus I mean, you have this whole group

(17:06):
and they still do it to this day with the
different inner healing ministries and emotional healing ministries. They discredit
using your imagination. They discredit all that, and they call
it hypnosis and they discredit all that. What is it
called false memory memory? Yeah, I mean there's a book
that I've read, but if you go back and research
the authors, they were all involved in monotok MK ultra

(17:31):
and and some people would say, well, yeah, well that
means they can really know what they're talking about to
be able to discredit this, And I'm like, no, it
actually shows me they have an agenda.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
So yeah, I think that's a whole episode.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and
it's such a boogeyman in the church too, and it's
just not God made our brains these marvelous things, and
He created them to be able to compartmentalize trauma. And
we have to get to those traumas, I know, secular
trauma people that use PTSD stuff and to good effect,

(18:06):
you know, getting into these traumas, and how much better
for Jesus to be in these traumas, you know, and
to heal you and to know He was there during
these traumas, and and anyway, and and the other interesting
thing too I want to bring up is that the
church has been doing this for thousands of years. They
just called it different things, different branches of the church.
They actively taught their members they were called mystics. They

(18:27):
actively taught their members to engage in the in the
and and mystic was not like a woo woo like
Yogi type situation. It was just somebody who pursued prayer
more often than the casual baptized Christian that was in
the peasant, you know. And and they would get called
mystics and all that kind of stuff. And the reality

(18:48):
is is it. We just did a podcast on altered
States of Consciousness with Meryl Green and and when I
saw how much of that is in the Bible, it
just really blew me away. It was not just demonic.
I mean there was some demonic instances, but done just
the demonic. And so, yeah, they commit this logical fallacy

(19:10):
of just throwing the baby out with the bath water.
And yeah, like you said, that's another whole show. We
had to do that. That would be an interesting show
to do.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
So yeah, that's well worth it. Oh yeah yeah, so
Warnky about this time, then enters the Satanic Panic onto
the scene and you're right, absolutely right, Lindsay Michelle remembers
totally though tie in together. So I'm going to describe
Satanic panics. We can kind of get the idea, Yeah,

(19:39):
social awareness and worry that Satanism is real and lurking
hidden everywhere, including rock music, cartoons and dungeons and dragons dragons,
oh yeah yeah, and also the pulse of the time. Right,
we didn't I know, this might be hard for some
of you to imagine. We didn't have Google, we didn't
have the Internet, relied on talk shows and radio shows

(20:03):
and those kinds of things, and newspapers occasionally and.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
These buildings called libraries.

Speaker 6 (20:08):
Oh in a card catalog, Yeah, what's the systemad uh.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
So Mike Warnkey and other people who were talking about
Satanic panic, talking about Satanism, they would be consulted by
police departments. Mike Warnkey I think was on an episode
of Oprah Winfrey. They would be in those places because
they were considered experts in the information right, and of
course like we get clickbait now television programs that they

(20:43):
want you to tune in, so they're gonna have the
most sensational, the most outrageous, that kind of thing. With
what we saw the peak of that, I think with
Jerry Springer. But you can see how how there was
kind of that fever that that we all right, we
gotta have this guy, we gotta that guy, and we
got to talk about sensational and crazy things.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, And I wanted to bring up the fact that
dealing with some of our past shows that we've dealt
with with the Son of SALMONO, it frustrated Maury Terry,
who if you guys remember he was the one that
wrote He constantly got frustrated because they would put him
in a lineup with some of these clickbait, satanic panic people. Anyway,

(21:21):
I just thought that was an interesting kind of throw
in there too. He would get so frustrated that be
put on shows.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
With them, lumped in with other people who were yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, he was a serious journalist, you know, I
mean he really.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
Was, So all of this is kind of fomenting. Boy,
I remember, they came down on rock music, they came
down on Dungeons and Dragons, the Smurfs. The Smurfs were
considered satanic at some point, and I never I don't
understand exactly why. I was a kid at the time
when they were talking about these things. But boy, you

(21:58):
know you were a good Christian girl going to you group. Wow,
you let's bring those records in and earn those records
and throw away that book and don't play Dungeons and
Dragons or you're gonna go straight back.

Speaker 5 (22:10):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
That's really how it.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Felt then that then that movie what was that movie
with Tom Hanks and Laborates and what was it, Lizzy,
I don't know, Uh, I can't remember.

Speaker 5 (22:22):
When it just it was like a D and D movie,
wasn't it?

Speaker 3 (22:25):
The dn D movie? And Tom Hanks, like before he
was really really popular. Yeah, and a bunch of teenage
kids got caught up.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
In mazes and monsters.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Mazes and monsters, that's what it was. In the movie.
He got caught up at whold RPG role playing thing
and it was just the whole movie was propaganda to
show the satanic panic and stuff. And but what you
know what gets me, and I'm going to say this
continually to this probably this whole podcast is it was.
It was overblown. It was almost like there was too

(22:57):
much emphasis on it, and that made it really suspicious.
Like what they do nowadays, like the mainstream media. It's
like they'll put a smoke screen over here and they're
really doing something over here, you know, like kind of
the Wizard of Ozz. Don't pay attention to the man
behind the curtain, you know. I sense that now looking
back now, knowing what I know, with a lot of
the satanic panic, I sense the smokescreen kind of stuff.

(23:18):
It's like, let's push it too far and really petrify.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
People, right, And so I think a lot of people
it was a genuine fear. I don't want I don't
want my kids to turn into satans. I don't want
them to be lost. I want them to be saved.
So all right, no, we're going to get rid of
that album. We're going to do this and be careful
about that. And so I can I can understand the motivation.
But also if the motivation is fear, that is the

(23:46):
wrong motivation. My husband and I call that look at
the monkey. So when when the kid's getting a picture
taken and they're crying and everything, oh, look over here,
Look at the monkey.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Look at the monkey. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, take a picture.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
They want you to look at the monkey and not
pay attention to what's actually going on so that they
can do what they want to do. And I think
that that anytime there is that fear, this is what
I've learned going through all these and seeing different societal fears.
Anytime there's that fear that's chasing you one direction, that
is a problem. Why is it chasing me this way?

(24:17):
I'd heard a long time ago that the uh you know,
when they say the devil is a roaring lion prowling
around seeking whom he made devour. That an actual roaring lion.
It wouldn't be the young and the aggressive ones. It
would be the old one because he couldn't do the
running and everything. But he would sit back and he'd roar,
and he's scary, like, oh no, it's the lion, and

(24:38):
so you would run a different way, but you would
run right into where there were the aggressive lions and
lionesses that could eat it. So yeah, yeah, I see
that fear. Anytime there's that fear, it's trying to push
me some direction. Where's it trying to push me, and
that may be the worst place to go. Lindsay, did
you were you guys.

Speaker 5 (24:57):
Say, well, yeah, I was just going to go back
to the whole this idea of using like the worst,
the goofiest, the over the top, the obviously or at
least the most men discredited. Well, one of the things
that hurt things was that Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pasder

(25:18):
went out to California and worked with the mc martin
people for a little while, so.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
They became associated with that.

Speaker 5 (25:25):
Yeah, so they were discredited and they went out there
and you know, so, yeah, it just using the worst
case scenario to discredit things that were there. If you
look into the whole McMartin thing, there was obviously something
going on there.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, it's the whole We don't mean to do it,
but guilt by association is really hard to do. And
I've noticed that in our circles Frings, conspiracy, tinfol kind
of stuff is that we like to we like to
run these lines of guilt by association, but not everybody
comes back to Kevin Bacon, so to speak. It's and
it's a logical fallacy for a reason. I've seen it

(26:06):
done in the church, you know, if if this pastor
went to a conference with this other pastor, there immediately
equated not to mention the fact that it was the
head pastor of the church that invited these different people.
They might might even know each other, and and you know,
just stuff like that. But it's really hard not to
do in these circles because there is something to be said,
like we're right now in the middle of the Epstein

(26:28):
Follows things, and I don't know if it's still going
on when we released this, but there is a lot
of vible guilt by association involved in the whole Epstein thing.
So it's it's hard to me. It's like a hard
road to follow. It's like a trail, and there's the
huge ditches on the side of both of them, you know.

Speaker 4 (26:46):
So that is so true. I've read stuff Christian stuff
that say like, well, so and so with his grandfather
did this, and then and then the grandson, well, you know,
because that's his grandfather. Well he's obviously guilty. But I'm thinking,
like my grand father, he went to what he did,
what he believed. I don't know, I have no idea

(27:06):
so to say that I'm doing the same thing as
my grandfather is not quite right. But then we also
know there's bloodline things and yes, different associations that. So
it's kind of like we have to walk that that middle.
We have to be reasonable and then not that panicked fear, right,
because that fear that says, oh well, if it's grandfather
did this, then he means that that's that fear chasing

(27:27):
you in one direction. We have to be reasonable and
try to figure out what the truth is behind it,
not being by any fear.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, look out for the young lions. That's the ones
we need, is the young lions, right, yep?

Speaker 4 (27:39):
All right, So then this is what happened to Warki.
This is kind of where everything blows up. And really
in the eighties is when the Satanic panic became huge.
It was quite the kerfuffle everywhere everywhere in Christianity. We
were talking about it. We were limiting, we were burning things,
We were doing that to try to protect people from
this satanic stuff. And I think lions part of it

(28:01):
scaring us in the wrong direction. So in the early nineties,
Cornerstone magazine which no longer exists, but Cornerstone Magazine researched
the claims of the Satan cellar and a little bit
about Cornerstone magazine. It was sort of a Christian commune
type of situation.

Speaker 5 (28:21):
So probably more I remember like the Jesus people, weren't.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
They Yes, yes, yeah, that would be a good way
to put it.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
So they went back and looked over the claims that
were written down in the Satan Cellar, and they debunked
most of them. What they did, they talked to people
that knew him, people that went to high school with him.
They looked at his photos from his graduating class when
he said he would have looked a particular way and
he didn't look that way. People said that he attended

(28:50):
youth group meetings and whatnot before he went to Vietnam,
saying he was a Christian before he went, and just
a lot of stuff that really debunked what he did,
what he claimed in the Satan Cellar. So baby with
the bathwater, well then everything he said must be a lie, right,
everything he said is not true? Yeah, and we just

(29:11):
do we swing that like that pendulum one way together.
And what also came out about Warren Key is he
was married four times. One time he even he would
and several affairs he was married, was having an affair,
divorced his wife, and I think a matter of months
later married the woman he was having an affair with.

(29:33):
And there's just a lot of stuff like that. So
often divorcing due to violence and affairs. The most recent
woman that he's been with, it's been it's been long term.
But and I'm going to stop there too, because there
was this is about the time also that there was
the rise of focus on the family and focusing on

(29:54):
not getting a divorce and pushing back on that what
was becoming a societal norm of divorcing and separation and
affairs and stuff, which is good. But then because mikey
More we found out Mike Gornky had a divorce. Well
then oh, well he's bad. He can't he's discredible, he's
just done. He's done through. Well, my goodness, if we

(30:16):
eliminated today everybody from who had a divorce, I wouldn't
be here, you know what. Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Well that's that's one thing. Let me get on the
hobby horse just for a minute. That is one thing
the church handles so incorrectly, is the whole divorce thing.
You know, It's like it seems like all these other
sins you can repent of And I'm not going to
tell my usual story that I tell about a friend
of mine who is willing to be a missionary. But
you can almost murder, go to jail, get out, repent,

(30:50):
and then you're all good. But you get a divorce,
you have the scarlet D on your life the whole
rest of your life. You're disqualified. And that just that
irritates me. Yeah, and I'm not saying that divorces is
right or that God wants it or any of that
kind of stuff, but there were allowances made for it
in the law, and there was allowances made for it

(31:10):
with Jesus as well and Paul, and yeah, we just
can't discredit somebody just because they've had a divorce. I mean,
I think about a lot of these pastors that aren't divorced,
but they're so addicted to pornography and they're having to
hide it, and yeah, it breaks my heart. And they
have to hide it because once it comes out, you know,
they're disqualified. Or actually they're less disqualified if they've got

(31:32):
a divorce. But yeah, I totally agree with you about that.
He who has no sin cast the first stove. And
I'm not coming across as a Namby Pamby rainbow flag
wearing love winds kind of junk like that. Either there's
a place for reconciliation and discipline and all that kind

(31:53):
of stuff, And in some of our circles, I think
the discipline is not enough. I think it's it's you know, hey,
sit out for six months and you get back in
the game. It's this either or thinking that we have
in the West in the body of Christ, and I
see so much both and in God and in the

(32:15):
Church he's three and one. He's both. I mean, you know,
you see in his very nature that he's not an
either or. That was pagan thinking, and it's slipped into
the Church anyway in sermon. Sorry well, and I think a.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Lot of that chocks it up to self righteousness, right, yes,
if you can say that that my righteousness is achieved,
I mean we wouldn't actually, as Christians say this, but
we act like I'm saved, but I have to prove
how righteous I am. Yeah, But our righteousness is in Christ.
It's because He's stamped that on our forehead. You are righteous,

(32:52):
not because of what I do. And so somebody's unrighteous,
somebody does something wrong, it's sin call horror like we
all do. Uh, we dot pile on him. And that's
how we treat any fallen Christian We just we just
jump on him and we tear him to pieces. And
so so that's what happened to Mike Warnkey. Yeah, I mean,
it's so sad. It was so sad. So so Mike

(33:14):
Warnkey fell. He was exposed as not being totally honest
in a lot of things, and when he went down,
he took Satanic panic with him, and everybody kind of
said all all the claims of ritualistic abuse were disregarded
as sheer fabrications, delusional memories, you're crazy whatever. And Mike

(33:38):
Warnkey he lost all his speaking contracts, his followings, his
recording contracts. They just said, nope, nope, we're not going
to have you at all. So he became, like I
heard on so many podcasts, he became an object of
ridicule and a public disgrace in both the mainstream Now today,
anybody talked about satanic panic, they're gonna throw Mike Quarkey
in there. Yeah, and also in Christianity. And part of

(34:01):
my thought is, wait, aren't we about saving sinners?

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (34:06):
Why do we prop this person up and says, this
person is going to be our representation of what a
good Christian is and then when they fall, oh no,
we rip them apart. But I mean, you think about
my life as a Christian. I've done so many stupid
things as a Christian. I've been a Christian for a
long time, and I've made a lot of mistakes. I've
believed a lot of lies. I've gone a lot of

(34:26):
wrong directions. But it's that self righteousness.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
That we do.

Speaker 4 (34:31):
We just attack people, Yeah, we judge them like that.
So that's part of my questions. How do we deal
with believers who fail? And how do we how should
we as believers treat those people who fall and those
people who fail?

Speaker 5 (34:52):
Well, this is just kind of another question. I was like,
how much of this backlash was first of all, taking
it advantage of the people who want to get away
with it, by people who want to get away with it?
But how much of this comes from This is going
to sound Yungian a little bit, but kind of I
think we might have this collective guilt for things like

(35:13):
the Salem witch trials and perhaps even stuff as late
as things like McCarthyism, which was different, but it's still
kind of that same witch hunt mentality. You think kind
of our collective guilt for things like that and not
wanting to repeat it may have helped cause this sort
of backlash against Satanic ritual abuse.

Speaker 4 (35:36):
I could definitely see how that would play a card.
I think part of the other thing is like we're
we continue to try to prove to the world that
Christianity is a good religion and it's not hard, you
don't have to suffer that it's good. And see, look
at this person, that's all good. Like we're using these
people to prove that Christianity is good. And so if

(35:57):
we if somebody comes up with an allegation against said, well,
this is just a witch hunt like the Salang witch trials,
and oh no, no, no, no, no, that's not what it is.
That's not what I meant, that's not we walk away.

Speaker 5 (36:07):
Yeah, one phrase can completely discredit you.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Like that, right, right, totally. Well, and I only go
into this a little bit too. I know you guys
are a little familiar with and if you're not, I'll
kind of throw it out here. To me, it seems
like it was like kind of bookended by two books.
First would be Michelle's book and Warnkey's book. But then
the one on the other end that really put the

(36:32):
nail on the coffin was Jeffrey Victor's book, The Satanic Panic.
It came out where he basically went in and and
I mean he didn't just stop with just the Warnkey
and and the peripheral stuff. He even went into the
discrediting sr A. I've heard it said by psychologists. Actually

(36:53):
I had a pastor that I knew that said, the
same people that see Bigfoot and the same people that
they get abducted by aliens, are the same kind of
people that are SRA, you know. And I'm like, really
interesting enough, this pastor was in the military, and so
anytime I make a military connection somewhere, and I don't
know if he's involved in intelligence or what, but he's

(37:15):
a great guy. But I just see the shortsightedness of that.
It's that either or thinking it's that that stuff. I mean, Victor,
he has just presuppositions going into the book that you know,
the supernatural is not real, the devil's not real. I mean,
how can you possibly ever have a fair and balanced
type book when you wipe out half of the possible

(37:38):
results of coming to an investigation. And I mean there's
been so much now by what I believe are reputable
people like Fritz Springmar, Preston Bailey, He rust his dar,
these different people that have done SRA work, and there's
untold other nameless people out there. Our Mentor does a

(38:01):
lot of work with SRA, and I know there's other
guys out there that people slam on and stuff, but
they're still doing really good work and they're not afraid
to experiment, so to speak, and learn from the mistakes
and stuff. But he just writes all that kind of
stuff off because he immediately he has this anti supernatural bias.
They're all deluded, you know, or they've been through a

(38:22):
false memory syndrome. And you know, we already talked about
how that was just could be discredited just by the
fact that they're all ex government employees anyway, So anyway,
but that book, are you all familiar with that? I
actually I didn't read completely through it. I browsed through

(38:43):
it for the prep of this show, and I just
kind of went through and I didn't refute it, but
I just saw some I mean, I'm adhd and got
a little bit of the tism. So I see patterns,
and I would see, you know, some of the patterns
that if you say anything as satanic, you're automatically labeled
a religious extremist. There's no middle ground there at all.

(39:08):
And I'm learning through my fifty years now that there's
a lot of gray area. Now, to God, everything's black
and white, but we're not God, and that gray. We
need his Holy Spirit, We need his relationship with Him
to navigate through that gray, through that fog, and we

(39:29):
need each other to do it too. But a buddy
of mine just this morning was saying, he thinks that
you're talking about self righteous and that pride, that that's
what keeps us from working together in the body of
Christ to really figure out who the common enemy is.
We're too busy trying to make our way right, our
way right, our way right, instead of saying, okay, well, yeah,

(39:53):
my way's right, but you know, and working and negotiating
and then there's another side of that. Usually that's what
theological liberals and stuff do is they want to have
a discussion, which usually translates into we're going to persuade
you to come to our side and embrace theological liberalism.
So you know, you got all these like land mines everywhere,

(40:14):
and that's why we need the Holy Spirit, and we
need the Church to navigate through this place of what's truth.
We need to exercise the true gift of discernment, which
includes something you said earlier, Jen that I think was
just great reason. We can't throw reason out just because
all the atheists are reasonable doesn't mean that reason wasn't

(40:36):
a God given trait that we don't And I can't
remember the wesleyand quadrilateral I remember, I think one of them.
You have experience, you have the Bible, you have reason,
and I think you have faith. I think that's the four.
I don't remember. Tradition, tradition, that's it. It's not faith,

(40:58):
That's what I meant by faith, it's tradition. So Wesley
taught that when you go into a subject, you take
all four of those. Of course, the Word of God
is the ultimate, you know, That's where we start and
stop is with the Word of God. Ultimately, it's primary,
is what I call it. But then you have these
other things that are factors involved in it, but they

(41:20):
don't have the cloud, so to speak, or the authority
that the Bible has but we still need them because
some people fallaciously will say, well I just got the Bible, well,
but you still have to interpret that Bible. And add
a professor in seminary that said all it took to
make a heretic was a Bible in an empty room,
and I'm like, you know, that's kind of interesting. And

(41:42):
what he was saying is that if you don't have
people in your life, if you don't have the Church,
the great cloud of witnesses, not only the ones that
are alive here, but the ones that have come before
us to shape what we believe. And that's why I
get suspect with a lot of restorationist type movie. And
so we just discovered the truth. Okay, yeah, there's some

(42:03):
truth to some of them. And then remnant movements, we're
the remnant. I'm like, well, you know, Elijah thought he
was the remnant too, and God said no, there's about
three thousand other dudes that are had to bow their
needy as well. So anyway, I'll just end that. But
I think that to get through a lot of this
type stuff with the Satanic panic, because it was the
monkey thing that you talked about, Jennifer, it was look

(42:24):
over here, and I was taught by I don't know
what people think about him, but I loved him. When
I first became part of a war of the spirit
filled or charismatic oriented movement, this guy really just mentored
me and a man named Jack Hayford. And and he
was very reasonable among Pentecostals and stuff like that and charsbacks.

(42:48):
But he used to always say this. He would say,
if Satan can't stop you, he will push you too far.
And so I see that constantly in a lot of
these these type movements that all right, if you can't
stop the truth from getting out there, he'll push us.
He'll do the monkey, you know. And then I'm doing

(43:09):
something over here. And we need to be aware of
his walls where we can combat them and fight them
and pray against them and even you know, teach and
share with people against them. But instead we want to
go after people. And uh, you know, people are wrong
and they need to be called out for it, but
they don't need to be crucified. But like Lindsay said,

(43:31):
we have this this fear of doing a Salem witch
trial that we won't even do it at all anymore,
you know. So, and and.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
That goes back to kind of One of the things
I wanted to talk about is, Yeah, we think about
how we treat our heroes when they fall. I us
love to treat heroes when they fall. How would I
want to be treated if I make a really bad mistake?
I would What I would want, what would lead me
to repentance is kindness, Somebody coming alongside me, say hey,

(44:03):
I heard about this, what's going on? Talk to me?
How can we help you through this? How can we
move beyond this? I wouldn't want people around me who
would make it harder and harder to repent, you know,
who would make you feel shame, shame, disgrace you and
oh no, we can't be around that at all. Well,
that's not how love treats failure.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
What good father makes you feel ashamed? And we use
that so much in our language. Oh it just breaks
my heart. I've done it when I was for my kids,
like you should be ashamed. I'm like, oh, I wish
I could take that back, you know. And then you
get into other countries Eastern particularly shame based cultures, and
that's shame is the ultimate of evils. And Jesus came

(44:47):
to save us from our shame. He took our shame,
and I can see where conviction can bring shame. But
he quickly rescues us from that shame with his blood,
with his with his good news, with the you know,
the fact that we get a second chance and a
third chance and ad infinium, you know type chances. And

(45:11):
I'm thankful for that. I am so thankful that I
need his grace on a daily basis, sometimes hourly and
and so. Yeah. But that's a great question about how
do we treat our heroes? And I think a lot
of that is is goes back to pride. And let

(45:35):
me explain what I mean about. Let me unpack that
little bit. We put these people on pedestals, which was
wrong to begin with. We should respect and honor people,
but we shouldn't put them on pedestals. I mean, I
do it, everybody does it, but it's hard not to
do it. But we put them on pedestals, and then
when they fall, we feel prideful, like, oh, well, you know,

(45:58):
I really didn't believe them anyway, they weren't really my hero,
you know, I saw through it, or or we kind
of push away a distance ourselves from them. When what
you're saying Jennifer, I think is totally accurate. We need
to run like the prodigal father to him and then

(46:19):
and then that reflects Jesus and reflects the Father himself
as well.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
Because I have to say when I heard this about Mike,
it was probably early nineties when I heard about this,
and I actually it was my first chance to go
see him in concert. And somebody said, oh, he's completely discredited,
and I'm like, and I thought, the phrase that went
through my head was that phrase. There was a boxer

(46:45):
who or some athlete who cheated. They found out that
he cheated, and some kid went up to him and said,
say it ain't so, Joe, Like, we looked up to you,
say it ain't so. It's like a betrayal. That's how
it felt to me, like trail. Yeah, but I still
went to the concert and yeah. He one thing that

(47:07):
he said too, I think he still has his skills
and ability.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Is it.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
One thing that he said at the concert, he said,
I'm so glad that I can hear all the children
in here who are making noise in the concert. And
he said, to those of you who think I just
made a pro life statement, I did just make a
pro life statement, the kids are a good thing to have,
and I mean, I'm gosh, I'm saying that right now.
I'm getting goosebumps because nobody was saying that at the time. Yeah,

(47:34):
but it's just hard. It's hard. I actually reached out
to Mike through his different connections and told him, Hey,
I'm doing this, We're doing a podcast on it. I'd
love to share with you, love to know what you think.
He has a Facebook and he didn't connect back with me.
But sometimes you just don't want to dig that stuff up.
And thinking about that too. I've also been rereading the

(47:54):
Monster Mirror, the episode that we did with them about
David Burkwitz, and there was all also a sense of
shame with David, even now looking back at the others,
a huge sense of shame. And part of my thinking is,
you know, maybe shame is that's the enemy's form of
guilt and confusion. Yeah, but it's not real guilty and conviction.

(48:17):
That's how the enemy tries to convict you and make
you feel guilty. But all he could. The best he
can do is shame. But we don't have that shame.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
I mean, if shame is good, then Jesus wouldn't have
taken it on the cross, right, that's right.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
Well, also, you can't force real conviction on somebody, can't.
You can't shout it into them, you can't twist their
arm into it. It comes from the Lord.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, yeah, it comes from grace. Yeah, it's truly a
grace or even thing. And we don't realize how much
grace is involved in our lives. For the Lord. It's
so much of it's under the cuff and unseen. And
it's just they're working, working, and we need that. And
and I'm about to probably really rock people's words, but

(49:02):
it's working out there in the world. To you guys,
God loves them and he has grace, common grace, provenient
grace that is working in their lives. He is, he
is trying to get through to them, He's trying to
reach them. He just he loves people. And one of

(49:22):
the things that's really just rocked my world a few
years ago is and I heard from a preacher here
in Mississippi. He came to speak and he said, you know,
if you ever want to know how valuable you are,
what's the most valuable thing in the world, Well, the
blood of God. And it's what somebody is willing to
pay for something is what gives it its value. And

(49:43):
God is willing to shed his blood for you, so
that gives you the utmost of all value. And this
is where what Lindsey says so important is that wasn't
just a statement, you know kind of Oh that's great, yeah,
le me write it down. It hit home. It convicted
me in my heart that you know, who am I God?
I have a worse opinion of myself than God does. Wow.

(50:08):
So you know, and I do want to add a
disclaimer in a caveat. There's a lot of stuff coming
out with leaders, and there's a lot of people out
there at friends of mine that are exposing different things
they did, and that needs to be done. Now, if
you spend eighty percent of your ministry just doing that,
then I question that there is not a spiritual gift

(50:29):
of heresy hunting in the Bible. I've just probably offended
a lot of people. There is not a spiritual gift
of that. It needs to be done, but there is
not a ministry of spiritual like Lindsay says, heresy hustling.
So I'm adding a disclaimer. It needs to be done,
and I have a personal story just with my family
and being involved with something years ago, and I'm not

(50:51):
going to get into a lot of details, but I
had to be involved in some of that. And I
watched this whole church process of Matthew eighteen happened, and
none of it was restorative. It was so punitive. It's like,

(51:12):
we don't want to deal with these people, so we
just kick them out of our church and we wash
our hands just like Pilot did, and we say, I
don't have to worry about this. We don't want to
come alongside them. And granted, some people don't want that,
not yet, you know, but there are people who do.
There are people who make major mistakes and that they're

(51:35):
not given the choice of whether the church could come
alongside them and clean off the wounds. And that's why
I think it takes so many different types of people
in a church. It takes people like me to expose
sometimes it takes people like my wife and Lindsey and you,
Jennifer them to love people and give them breaks and
give them breaks. And I mean, we need that, we

(51:57):
need the body of Christ to really bring the Body
of Christ together, and people are so afraid I bring
this up all the time. People say, well, we need,
we need to say the truth in love, but you know,
it's always like that in love comes like two seconds later.

Speaker 5 (52:14):
Like emphasis own truth.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Exactly and truth. If you remember what tree was in
the garden that made us stumble, it was a knowledge
of good and evil, which would be truth, not the
person of truth, not Jesus. But Jesus's truth is always personal.
M it's it's it's always redemptive, it's always it wants

(52:39):
to make you like him. I told somebody the other
day that, you know, it says in Romans that our
greatest act of worship we can do is not Eucharist, communion, worship, service, songs, prayer.
The greatest act of worship we can do is to
become like Jesus Christ and love God and love others
like he did. That is the greatest act of worship.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
So when you think about shame and how we treat people,
I think such a good example is the woman who
was caught in adultery. The truth was she was committing adultery.
That was the truth. But if you just say you
leave it there, Jesus didn't leave it there. He took
away or shame. He lifted her head. Look around. You

(53:22):
don't have to be ashamed anymore. And that, I mean,
that's amazing. That's amazing to me that that's how we're
supposed to love people who fall into problems. I've hardly
ever seen the Matthew passage that you're talking about late
church discipline. I've hardly ever seen that in all my
years until a couple of years ago at the church

(53:45):
i'm at now, and I don't know the whole situation
because they the church didn't tell us here's what happened,
here's what you know. That was no, no, not at all.
They said there's some issue here, and so we're initiating
church discipline on her and the situation. And then a

(54:06):
while later she came back and was actually welcomed back
into the body again. And I was fairly new at
the church when this I saw this happen, but I'm like,
I was blown away because I never.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
A lot of that. He knows who we're talking about.
A lot of that is is a great pastor that
you have. So yes, yes, definitely.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
He's absolutely awesome. Yeah, So okay, so let's look at this,
what kind of what the fallout is now the fallout
of satanic panic is that the waters were completely muddied,
and to whose benefit. Now you look back at it,
you can't figure out unless of that a lot of

(54:49):
research and stuff, who was telling the truth, who was
right about those some things. There were some albums that
we're back, yeah, discernibly evil. There were others that said, oh,
if you're will you sell more albums? All right, let's
put pentagrams on the cover of our album. And they
were all over the place, right because they wanted to sell.
But there were people it was like this whole combination

(55:09):
of stuff, and the enemy just came in and he
had monkeys everywhere. Look at this monkey, look at that monkey,
look at that one, and scaring us in all different directions.
So we don't we lost what the truth is, and
so real legitimate stories that we look back, we can
see now those were true. And there's stuff that's come
out about the McMartin case. There was great possibility that

(55:31):
some of the accusations were true. Yeah, But because we've
lumped it all into this satanic panic and tossed it
out the window, that we can't go to that as
a reasonable explanation for anything we can't use reason to
do that, and I think a good case that would
talk about that. Now. I don't know if you guys
have followed it all. The Delphi murders, No, that's familiar

(55:54):
with those. The two girls were murdered in twenty seventeen
in Delphi, Indiana, and Delphi, Indiana is probably about three
thousand people tops a very small town in Indiana. They
were murdered in the park there and it took about
to say. I think it was twenty twenty four that

(56:15):
someone was arrested. There's a very famous video that one
of the girls capped. They were young girls, I Tink
twelve thirteen, captured on her snapchat of.

Speaker 5 (56:27):
This like a train, trestle train.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Train, Yeah, down the hill.

Speaker 5 (56:33):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
So somebody just okay, this is kind of I don't
I don't want to get into the whole thing because
this would be an entire episode. But but somebody said, oh,
I realized he was down there when the murders were happened.
He was at this at this park walking in Delphi,
and he comes out, he comes forward to the police

(56:55):
at the time and says, oh, yeah, I was down there.
I was taking a walk and you know, whatever explanation,
and that tip disappears, it doesn't show up, and they
find it in a file like five years later, they
find it in this file, and then that backtracks to
this guy. And now this guy is in jail right
now for the Delphi murders. However, there's been other investigations

(57:19):
that have come up and different things that people have
said that maybe this is connected. These two murders were
connected to odinism, which is Norse mythology. There were police
officers in the jail that were guarding this man, and
this man was in solitary confinement for ninety days. I
think they were guarding him, but they had patches dedicated

(57:41):
to Odinism on their clothing. But nothing about odinism was
allowed in the court trial. Nothing was permitted at all.
And people who report on it or say, well what
about this claim, what about that claim? No, No, that's
just satanic panic.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
I think a man is in prison right now. He
should not have been totally gas lit and manipulated into
that situation, but now it's all pinned on him. There
we go, AREO.

Speaker 5 (58:12):
Yeah, nut again?

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Yeah? Well and if correct me, if I'm wrong, you
guys both you guys have knowledge of this in odinism
connected to the Order of Nine Angles and some of
the right wing and then that yeah.

Speaker 5 (58:27):
Yeah, I think I just European paganism in general is
kind of connected.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
So yeah, even kind of Celtic stuff. Yeah stuff. Yeah.
So that goes back to what we we released about
the Processed Church today and that we had on our show.
She gets accused and harassed, and I was kind of
worried when we had her on the show that we
were going to get some flat which we haven't yet.
But it's all lumped into satanic panic. It's all it's

(58:54):
written off, which is exactly what ultimately the enemy wanted,
but also ultimately what some people that are in these
shadowy areas, you know, Uh, that's what they wanted too.
And then my suscameter goes off and and I start thinking,
how involved we know that the CIA, And when I

(59:15):
say the CIA, I want to caveat this. People lump
the CIA and into there are good people in the CIA,
but there are dark people in the CIA that are
plants that that are you know, uh, Trump through around
the whole. Uh the what is the deep states? Not
a deep state? It's a deep cult is basically what

(59:35):
it is. And it's all around the world, and and
and so what happens is you'll say, well, you know,
the FBI is corrupt, and they'll say, well, no, there's
I know. I know. I have a neighbor who's in
the FBI and he's a great guy. And see what
it is is it's it's all about departmental lizing and
one hand doesn't know what the other hand's doing, and
they all they connect like that. That's how we've discovered

(59:56):
the processed church works in a lot of ways, is
is they like need to know and you don't know
what a lot of these other other things doing. They
keep you in the dark and all that kind of stuff.
So I wonder oftentimes how involved the government is involved
in a lot of these these type things. And even
the Satanic panic. I mean, I've always wondered if it's

(01:00:18):
it was sort of a syop to to basically blow
this all up and then and then ultimately the long
game discredit anything that came out about SRA or or
Satanic ritual abuse or any of they involved type stuff.
You know, I can't prove that speculation, but just running
with the track record, you have intelligence inside the intelligence

(01:00:41):
so and we know for sure with Operation Mocking Work
that came out in Congress that they control the media
and they still do. And we know a lot of
the Laurel Canyon stuff with just the connections with intelligence
that that was just basically a big cultural experiment to
see can we create a countercultural experiment. And they had

(01:01:03):
people in the Black Panthers, they had people in all
these different groups that were all opposition and they were
just running the dialectic and anyway, so I just wonder
how involved this shadow government or shadow state or I
don't know what the good word would be, is involved
and even this thing because now I mean SRA is

(01:01:27):
starting to become more recognized. Now I will say that
because there's been some good people that have come out
and have proven anyway, there's this there's just wonderment I
guess with people about whether is this true or is
this not? And that's he's the author of confusion and
if he can keep us confused and he's achieving his purpose.

(01:01:51):
Monkey over here doing the real stuff over here. So
I'm never going to forget that now.

Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
Or lots of monkeys, it's lots of monkeys. Yeah, I
think two of the phrase of the scripture in the
Book of Ruth where Ruth goes to talk to Boaz
that night and then comes back and tells her mother
in law what happened, and the mother in law says,

(01:02:18):
all right, let's wait to see how the matter turns out.
And I think that we and a lot of stuff,
a lot of conspiracy stuff, we need to sit back
and wait and see how the matter turns out. We
get that scary post or whatever, and we just want
to react to it. No, wait and see what happens. Yeah,
wait and see what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Well, that sounds a lot like Gamelia too, Paul's mentor, Hey,
if these guys are of God, it'll it'll come out
if it's If they're not, and they'll be like the
rest of them, and they say, all that ended up.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
So so I just want to kind of put a
bow on what is going on with Mike Waranky. Now
he is in his eighties, he is still alive, He's
doing great health wise, as far as I was able
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Does he still is? He still?

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
He does sort of. So it's something Okay, So let
me let me backtracks that question he has not recanted
his testimony, but he says that that exaggerations crept in
over the years, and he has not What he basically

(01:03:26):
says is my testimony is my testimony. He hasn't really
clarified that whole thing. Uh So it's hard to know
exactly what he's referring to there. He after a short
time after all this, he submitted himself to a group
of elders and and yeah, that's a big thing. And

(01:03:47):
that went on for a couple of years, if I'm
understanding really good. So in his heyday, he was bringing
in millions of bucks, and he was talking about he
wanted to start this, uh not orphanage, but he wanted
to help kids who were stuck in Satanism. He wanted
to help with those kinds of things and start some
different outreaches, and so people would give money. But the

(01:04:11):
outreaches never came to fruition. So the money that was
going to him and said was going to be spent
in certain ways wasn't part of what, you know, part
of it. I look back on it and I think
about the mistakes and things that I am still unraveling
to this day, where I am mistakes that I've made
and mishandled stuff and blind spots I had, And maybe

(01:04:32):
I call it stupid tax, the tax, Yes, yes, paid
stupid tax. But so I can understand how you would
get lost in this you don't have the ability or yeah,
I can understand how these things happen because I struggle
with those things myself. He is still preaching, but sees

(01:04:55):
one of the things he said, he sees the value
in preaching to thirty instead of thirty thousand. So he
does still go to some places. A lot of places
still would be like Mike Wonky, isn't he that guy?
You know, and not welcome him in. But he really
sees the value of going to a small venue, you know.

(01:05:16):
And I think the situation that he came from, how
he grew up, how he had to be to survive,
the things that he inherited from his family, from his parents,
you know, all of those they take a lifetime to
work out, some of them. And so part of me
it's not that I give him a pass, but hey, man,

(01:05:38):
I have no stones. I have no stones to throw myself.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
Yeah, I have no stones. We all come from we
all come from brokenness. And I think about and I'm
not here to debate this, but I think about the
mood this shack in the book, and the thing that
really touched me in it is that when he realized
that his father had a broken past and that's why
his father was the way he was to him, Mac,
I think it was Mac. It was his name. And

(01:06:06):
you know, I've encountered that in my life. I look
back and and and just recently Ozzy Osbourne died, you know,
and and I just, oh, my gosh, I don't don't
wanna get started with that, you know. I mean, I
don't know the man's heart. I don't know man's soul.
I'm not going to make a judgment where he went.
But I do know this. I do know from his
memoirs that he was apparently molested and and the R

(01:06:32):
word by some boys and his he went and told
his father, and his father basically said you're a madman.
You're a mad man, and totally discredited him. Okay, now,
I mean that's I've heard that is truth. I don't
know if it's truth. I'm a caveat of that, but

(01:06:53):
that explains a lot of where this man went in
his trajectory in his life. You know, we we have
to realize that people are broken, and like you said,
we're not giving people a skate, We're not giving them
a free pass, you know, but we can give them
some mercy, right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
Right, I'm dropping my stone and walking away. Yeah, I mean,
I've got nothing. And it's just just like with David Burkwitz.
This is a man that Jesus died for.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Yes, exactly how.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
Are we going to treat that man? I'm a person
Jesus died for. How do I want to be treated?

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
Yes? At the foot of the cross, we're all the same, right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
And if somebody comes up and they're telling me about
I had these things happen to me as a kid,
or you know, it starts to begin to understand the satanic,
virtual abuse or whatever that they've been through. I want
to be a person that listens, not dismisses them and say, well, yeah,
you've lost your mind. Jesus slipped off your cracker. I

(01:07:50):
don't want to be like that. I want to I
want to treat them with love.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
Well, does in our country someone we're innocent until proving guilty?
I mean, shouldn't we It's I mean I'm talking about
that's the law system, but just in just in general,
that's a Christian principle. We should assume that somebody's innocent
until we have facts and evidence to prove that they're guilty.
And so often, I me, Brandon Spain, I judge their

(01:08:16):
hearts before I know all the details. So I repent
to the world out there, you guys, I am a
recovering judge, a holic. It's and all it's done to
me is I sewed into the wind and I've reaped
the whirlwind. So yeah, well, I think this is a

(01:08:41):
great place for us to stop. And I've enjoyed this.
This has been good, a good conversation, And this is
a topic we'll hear out there and they'll come down
on one or two sides. I think we really explored
the whole gambit of it. And and Lindsey and I
and you're the same way Jeffer too, is we're not
afraid to come down on some of these things. We

(01:09:03):
investigate and say, hey, it's not true, you know, or
it is true or or whatever. We've we've done some
ghost stories and we're like, yeah, it's just it's not
it's not true. So, uh, we're looking for the truth.
And but we're broken people just like Mike Warnkey and
everybody else in the world, and so we approach it

(01:09:24):
from that that viewpoint. Thanks for listening and supporting us,
and remember stay naturally supernaturally.

Speaker 7 (01:09:55):
H Hi, everybody, it's me Cinderella Acts.

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Speaker 4 (01:11:19):
I know, slippers, we got to keep

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Cleaning these chimneys.