February 24, 2023 • 52 mins
This week, Megan tells us the story of Kelly Anne Bates. A young woman who had her life stolen from her. Find Support After Murder or Manslaughter here: https://samm.org.uk/about/#:~:text=SAMM%20(Support%20after%20Murder%20and,an%20independent%20charity%20in%201988.
References:
The Torture and Murder of Kelly Anne Bates | The Scare Chamber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates
https://www.ranker.com/list/kelly-anne-bates-facts/amandasedlakhevener
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/torture-killer-jailed-for-20-years-26202465.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X913nSHIqqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26l_EePkmEM
Social Media:
@giveusmorgue on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram!
References:
The Torture and Murder of Kelly Anne Bates | The Scare Chamber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates
https://www.ranker.com/list/kelly-anne-bates-facts/amandasedlakhevener
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/torture-killer-jailed-for-20-years-26202465.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X913nSHIqqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26l_EePkmEM
Social Media:
@giveusmorgue on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Hi, and welcome back to giveus Mark. I'm Neve, I'm Megan,
and you were listening to mar eisode. That was my little intro.
I hope you all liked it.I thought it was beautiful. Thanks.
I've been taking singing lessons. Wow, I can really tell Arianna Grande who
(00:30):
I mean, It's more like TaylorSwift. But whatever, I mean,
I'll go how is everybody? Thisweek? Megan has a I'm told fantastic
episode from us that won't make mecry, it's gonna make you cry.
I guess we'll just jump right inbecause if it's gonna make me cry,
(00:51):
it's probably gonna be long. Imean, the case itself is a straightforward
story, and unfortunately, I thinkit's something that maybe we have seen before,
not in this podcast, but inour personal lives. Oh. I
think we've all kind of maybe seenthis kind of pattern in relationships of people
(01:14):
that we either know or have stumbledacross. So I want to say that
this is a torture episode in whichthe victim does die because of torture.
So if you can't handle that,please just skip ahead. But that is
the only warning I'll be giving forthis whole episode. Because the whole thing
(01:38):
is just complete. Is it likepsychological or is it grisome? It's it's
trus say a little bit of both. But yeah, okay, So if
like I know, like a lotof people don't like to hear about the
gruesom tales I have felt not tales. They're not tales, They're stories of
real life people. But you knowwhat I mean. So we're just going
(02:00):
to get into it then, Ofriend, guys. On the sixteenth of
April nineteen ninety six, James PattersonSmith walked into a Manchester police station and
told the officers there that his girlfriendhad just drowned in the bathtub. Police
(02:23):
officers rushed to Smith's home to avery gruesome scene. So to go back
to the beginning. Kelly Anne wasborn on the eighteenth of May nineteen seventy
eight and lived with her parents inMotram, which is a small town just
outside of Manchester. Her parents wereMargaret and Tommy Bates, and Kelly Anne
(02:44):
had two brothers, Andrew and Paul. As a little girl, Margaret says
Kelly Anne was a tomboy and sheloved kids. Quote. Kelly loved children
and wanted to be a teacher.She was soft hearted and very maternal,
which I don't know, I thinkthat is so cute. You know when
you see kids, they're kind oflike it a little bit older, but
(03:07):
they really love to kind of lookafter the younger ones. And yeah,
I mean, ye want to bedescribed h She loved hockey and would spend
her weekend's babysitting and working at amarket stall. Apparently everyone who knew her
said that she had a quote oldsoul, which I think, like we
(03:29):
all know what that means, likesomebody that's just really gentle and beautiful,
and she's just like a genuine personwho's just like caring of other people,
and like she's sensible exactly, sheis sensible. And that's what everybody would
kind of say about her, isthat she had her wits about her a
bit and she was a very confidentyoung woman. Kelly Anne was incredibly close
(03:54):
with her family, especially her parents. They had a lot of trust between
them. Like I said, KellyAnne often babysat for neighbors and it was
during one of these evenings baby sittingin nineteen ninety three that she met a
man named James Patterson Smith. Atthe time that they met. Kelly Anne
(04:15):
was only fourteen and James was aripe old forty five year old man.
I'm sorry what I thought you weregoing to say, like twenty or something.
No, no, absolute, thisman was Oh my god, he's
like Paul Breach. Don't you bringhim into this podcast? Do not.
(04:36):
I do not want to hear thatman's name. Absolutely not, Green,
green Grass, blue blue, absolutelynot. You have to know, you
have to bring your fucking sleeve halfwaydown your hand. You think, oh,
the ech the absolute ich Yeah,sorry it Why is he so old?
(05:02):
Not not all breached? Well thesame good said when he's texted sixteen
year olds. But um, that'snot my business. I mean it should
be somebody's business. It's like fuckingthe population of TikTok's business. Yeah,
(05:25):
TikTok will have him arrested. Theywill win this battle. He uses the
police as his own personal bodyguards.There he I'm sorry. The funniest is
that he called the guards all thepolice. If a bunch of teenagers were
heckling him, We're saying, hotchucky walkie, the police to come and
(05:51):
get them. Why didn't he Whydidn't he just get a taxi home so
funny. But yeah, this guyJames, he was forty five. That's
nasty. Fourteen he said, fourteenmm, that is foul. In what
(06:17):
dimension does a forty five year oldhave something in common with the fourteen year
old? What age he was liketwenty one when she was born or some
shit, not even oldertyving me todo math and the math is not math
in okay, he was like thirtyone when she was born. He's forty.
(06:41):
I feel ill. That is disgusting. First of all, why are
you attracted to a fourteen year old? What possibly could a forty five year
old man have in common with afourteen year old girl? And like,
from her perspective, when you're afourteen year old girl and this older dude,
can I ask the question, ishe at least like somewhat good looking?
(07:04):
Absolutely not. It looks like JimmySavile. Oh my god, that's
even worse. So like from becauseI was going to say, from her
perspective, she's a fourteen year oldgirl and this like attractive older man is
like interested in her. So she'slike thinks it's cool. Well, people
were attracted to Jimmy Savile back inthe day as well, though, Yeah,
(07:29):
you know what, this is nothelping things, because before this episode,
I was watching To Catch a Predatorand it was just so many gross
old men looking for thirteen and fourteenyear olds. I was like, Okay.
When guy walked into the house andjust pulled down his zip and Chris
Hamson walks in, He's like,what are you doing with your zip?
(07:50):
There? Are you doing with yourpants there? He's like, oh,
my zip just fell down. Ohit's just it's broken. My zip is
broken. I don't know. Ijust decided to bring alcohol condom and loops
just for emergency. I'm holding themfor a friend. They're not mine,
(08:11):
Chris, go Chris, it's myfriend that's the pedophile, not me.
My friend has asked me to comescope it out first to see if it
was you. You know what,I bet you somebody has at least tried
to use that excuse. They're wildand their excuses, Oh, their excuses
are up there. So like fortyfive and fourteen is just completely and utterly
(08:37):
disgusting. Yeah, and he knewit too. Anyway, we'll get to
that later on in the story.But that night, she was apparently babysitting
for like his friends, and hecame over then later on and when he
met her he was like, oh, I'll walk you home. So that
night he did apparently walk her homeand just from there they just apparently got
(08:58):
on really well. How do youget on so well with a fourteen year
old? Like, doesn't mean youto go fucking dater? Yes, sick.
Oh well, it's probably easy toget on with the fourteen year old.
And with the type of person thatJames is, he's just a predator.
(09:20):
No. When I say like,how do you get on? I
mean, how do you get onso well that you're like, oh,
she could make a great girlfriend.But this is the thing, I don't
think he's ever thinking, I don'tknow what way these people's work. He's
just yeah, I just I don'tthink I'll ever understand it. Like,
how can you look at someone soyoung, when you're that age and think
(09:43):
to yourself, I'd bone her.Yeah you know what I mean, that's
just what wash. Yeah, you'vegot something very very wrong with you.
Seriously. Yeah. And I even, like in my notes I said,
like a young girl or teenager,when somebody, when someone has really showing
(10:03):
you a lot of attention, youdo feel really important and cool and loved
and special. Yeah, like she'sfourteen, Like she thinks to herself,
Oh, wow, like this cool, cooler, older guy like fancies me.
Like she's like, wow, that'sso cool, Like yeah, I
can tell my friends yeah, Andshe's like wow, Like that would like
(10:26):
almost boost her confidence and be like, wow, I must be like so
mature, mature and good looking thathe fancies me one hundred and ten percent,
Like you don't think, oh thisis weird, well, like why
is he interested in me? You'relike, why wouldn't he be like exact
shit cool, you know, exactly, And so Smith began the grooming process,
(10:52):
which is exactly what this is,oh one person percent. They're kind
of dating in the background for awhile, nobody really knows, and one
day Kerry just comes home with thishuge bruise on her eye, which apparently
kind of almost took up her wholeface, like one side of her face.
Jesus. Obviously, Margaret her motherasked about it, and she just
(11:16):
explained it away by saying that agroup of girls just jumped her on the
way home from school. What thehell even at that? Would me be
like? That's like what? Likewho who? Are these girls? Why
did they jump you? What's goingon? Yeah, Like you'd have so
many questions being like did you sayanything to them to rile them up?
(11:37):
Like did they steal anything from you? Do you know them? Are they
from your school? Is this anongoing problem? Well, nobody's going to
think that this has to do witha grown man. No, of course,
not like as a parent, likewhen Anna reaches that age and she
comes home with like a black eye, Like I'm not going to assume that
a grown ass man that she's secretlydating has done it to her. Of
(12:00):
course not. Why would you,Like, no parent in their right mind
would be at all okay, okaywith no no. However, she does
tell her parents that she does havea boyfriend by the name of Dave Smith.
They're not too concerned. Kelly isan independent girl, so they just
they're happy for her. They justinnocently enough assume little boyfriend and girlfriend,
(12:24):
you know, nice cute and likebecause she's so sensible and so grown up
for her age and is a prettydecent Like she's a decent young girl,
Like she doesn't get herself into trouble, like you would just be like,
yeah, that's Okay, like it'sprobably just a boy from school and she
probably just doesn't want us to meetthem yet, Like it's fine, yeah,
(12:46):
exactly, Like you wouldn't question herbecause she's so sensible. Yeah,
you're like, Okay, she's gotthis down. She's young. They're probably
not thinking about like sex or anythingat this stage. Let's just let them
have they're innocent kind of thing.Yeah. At around this time, Kelly
Anne started sneaking it out of thehouse and staying at all night. Of
(13:09):
course, this concerning her parents,as she's obviously only fourteen. She wasn't
like staying out with her friends oranything like that like me and you might
have done back in the day.She was going straight to Smith's after school
on a Friday and staying there allweekend and coming home on Sunday evening to
(13:31):
get ready for school the next day. Yeah, like that's not now at
this point, that's not great.This is where things kind of start to
get a little more fucked up.At this point, James aka Dave would
actually ring the parents home and speakto them about Kelly Anne, saying that
(13:54):
he was also worried about her stayingat all night, Like he knew how
long it would take for her toget the bus from his place to hers,
how long it would take her towalk from the bus stop home,
and he would ring within like acouple of minutes it took to get her
home. So he had counted thisall out, like he knew where she
(14:16):
was supposed to be at all times. And from what I can understand,
I think the parents thought this isoh, this is really sweet, and
they're obviously at this stage still thinkingthat he's just like someone from her class,
not thinking that it's an older man. I mean, I struggle with
this a little bit, unless mytimeline is wrong, because I am open
to that, because there isn't likethe timeline jumps around. There isn't a
(14:41):
direct wherever you go. I mean, they could know that it's not someone
from her class, but they couldbe assuming that he's not forty five.
They could be assuming that he's likenineteen. I'm so sorry, though,
somebody who is forty five does sounddifferent on the phone to nineteen or old.
Yeah, just thought, oh,like he's super mature or whatever.
(15:03):
I don't know, and I'm nothere in any way shape or for him
to blame anybody or anything like thatno, no, no, no,
yeah, except for him. Atthis point. Margaret and Tommy hadn't even
met Dave. One day when KellyAnne was sixteen and an adult, and
I say that I think at thetime it was like you're considered an adult
(15:26):
in legal terms if in England.At the time, her parents came home
from being out and she'd actually broughthim over to the house. Margaret said
he from the beginning was overconfident andquote smarmie and when you hear somebody say
the words smarmie, you're like,yeah, he's like he's like a worm.
(15:50):
To me, it's Smermie is like, he's a cocky little shit who's
a smart, aunt cheeky, notan acute way in a like watch your
fucking self. The vibe that he'slike, you know when you go to
the pub and you meet the oldguy that's always there and he knows too
much. He's like, oh,did you know that this business or whatever
(16:12):
you say you're going to be completelywrong about and he's going to explain exactly
how you're wrong about it. Yeah, that's a vibe I gett And he
was coming down the stairs when Margaretfirst saw him, and he said,
quote, nice to meet you.Finally, excuse me, and first of
(16:32):
all, what are you doing upstairs? Why are you upstairs in my home?
Bick freak, get out, getout of my house. Don't say
finally to me. You're the onethat's been hiding this whole time. You
would be as a parent, firstof all, has scared would you be?
How scared would you be to seea forty seven year old man walking
down your stairs? I'd say herheart just dropped. You'd be like,
(16:57):
what the fuck? Who are you? Why are you in my house?
Well, Margaret says all she couldthink about. That's how she wanted to
immediately get rid of him. She'slike, she's like, this is clearly
not a young boy or even ayoung man. Like she's like, this
is out of my remmate, thisis not what I thought? Whatsoever?
Yeah? Yeah, like does it? At first, she believed to be
(17:19):
like either someone from her class orsomeone slightly older, But she obviously was
thinking like nineteen twenty, not someonewho is old enough to be her literal
father, literally around when the fuckingwheel was invented, Like with your fourteen
year old actually sixteen at this stageyear old daughter at this stage. Yeah.
(17:42):
Yeah. And one thing about himis he looks his age like he
looks not to say god, butyou know, he looks old, like
he's weathered. He looks yeah,like he doesn't look like a young forty
five or forty seven. He looksYeah. I would say he actually looks
older in my opinion. Then thatwhen you see a picture of him,
(18:03):
and I'll show you one, itgives you old pub guy in the corner.
Yeah. Yes. Margaret will goon to say how she remembers going
into the kitchen seeing a bread knifeand all she wanted to do was stobbed
this man and kill him and gethim away from her daughter. Mother inks
thinked, like, of course you'dbe so concerned as to why this older
(18:27):
man wants what he want with mychild. Quote the first time I met
him, he swaggered in and itmade the hairs stand up on the back
of my neck. He was mucholder than I expected. I visitly recalled
seeing our bread knife in the kitchenand wanting to pick it up and stab
him in the back. It wasa bizarre thought. I would never normally
(18:49):
think of anything so violent, Andnow I wonder whether it was some sort
of sixth sense. Looking back,it's my greatest regret that I didn't kill
him there and then it would havesaved my daughter's life. No, that's
so sad, you know, Margaret, you're a great mother. Don't blame
yourself. So just here, we'rejust going to take a quick ad break.
(19:17):
We are back from the ad.At this time, Kelly Anne had
told her family that Smith was,in fact thirty two, which is all
ready an astounding age difference. That'strying to make himself half her age,
like her half his age. Butthe truth was that he is well over
(19:37):
half right, well over. Thetruth was like, exactly what like you
said, he was actually about fortyseven or forty eight, making him a
year older than Kelly Anne's own father. Margaret and Tommy at this stage,
they didn't really know what to do. They thought if they pushed her,
it would just send her further intohis arms. Yeah, I get that.
(19:59):
After Kelly Anne him home multiple timeswith bruises and other injuries like white
marks, Margaret tried to speak toher about this man. Obviously She's like,
no, he's good to me.I love him. Her appearance also
began to change. She seemed notto be showering, her hair and clothes
would be dirty, and even herposture changed. It was at this point
(20:21):
she kind of started to bring hershoulders in on herself. You could see
like her world just getting smaller andtighter and more possessed by him. One
and ten percent. The grit thatthis man had on a teenager is absolutely
terrifying. And again, as aparent, how are you supposed to navigate
(20:42):
this situation? What are you supposedto do? You don't want to tell
her that she can't see him,because that's just not going to work and
she's just going to want him more. But then you don't want to just
let her see him because he's thisway older guy that you see clear as
day is not good news and isnot good for her, is abusing her.
(21:07):
So it's like, where's the fineline, Like where is the correct
thing to do or say? AndI think everybody listening, even ourselves,
that we can sit here retrospectively,looking back on the situation and be like,
well I would do this, andI would do that, But you
don't know until you're in that highpressure intent situation. No, And for
(21:30):
people that are listening to this saying, they should have just locked her in
her room and blah blah blah blah. That's not a solution either, because
that's also not good for her mentalhealth and for her well being, Like
you have to do it in away that gets across to her. Her
home house with her parents is asafe space. And if she doesn't want
(21:55):
this man in her life, shedoes not have to have this. How
do you tell it's sixteen year oldor seventeen year old girl, If you
don't want this man in your life, you don't have to have him in
your life. This is a thingat that age, Like it's so hard
to break up with people. It'shard to even break off friendships, you
know, or things like that Harryis supposed to with somebody, especially when
(22:18):
they're basically your dad. I stronglybelieve that it is not until like twenty
five are over that you start tobe like, no, you're a toxic
person. I don't want you inmy life. Up until that point,
you're just like, oh no,but they're my friend. Oh yeah,
(22:38):
I can definitely agree, Like you'rejust like, oh no, but they're
my friend. So like you stickup for it, and it's and then
it's the same, it's like,oh no, but that's my boyfriend,
Like they love me. No,I don't know. You just learn to
stand up for yourself really, yeah, But I do think it's not until
like your later twenties that you kindof find the confidence to actually be like,
(23:03):
no, you're actually not a niceperson and I don't want you in
my life. And then you figureout your own way, and it's I
think that's when you really start tosee I think it's because like you're getting
older and you're starting these mature ventureslike moving out of home, and like
you start kind of doing all ofthat stuff later into your twenties, and
(23:25):
so then I think that's when you'relike, actually, don't want certain people
in my life anymore. Yeah,it's that. And then it's the life
experience and knowing how other people haveaffected you and how it affected your overall
well being, and you just getto a point where you're just like,
why am I allowing this to happento my sie? Am I allowing this?
For When you're like sixteen seventeen,it's a real case of oh,
(23:49):
no, but they love me.They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't
love me, And so it's like, how do you get her away from
that? At this point of thesituation, I don't even think this is
her age is massively relevant. Well, I do think it is relevant,
but I think that this guy,by this stage, he just has such
(24:12):
a hold on her that it's noteven about her age anymore. It's just
that this guy has mentally psychologically woreher that she's just like, oh no,
but I can't believe him. Yeah, And abusers have that way of
going about it. And I watchedI think she's a psychologist on YouTube talk
about this case and she'd covered thiscase on Crime in Kenton or Crime Plus
(24:34):
or something, Crime and Investigation,that's what it was. But she secondation
on the episode that she'd covered KellyAnn on that she didn't feel that she
got to do the case justice andit's not how she would have liked to
have talked about the case. Andshe was saying, you know how much
an abuser, no matter what theage is, they know how to pick
(25:00):
people that they feel they can manipulatefrom the get go. They are actively
looking for victims and maybe they're notin their brain thinking their word victim or
anything I'm looking for. Yeah,but it's like in the back of their
head, somewhere deep down, they'relike they're looking. She would be easy
to get her to do X,Y and zai, easier to control.
(25:22):
She's not going to go at youknow, she's not going to fight me
on this or whatever. Yeah,And in this situation, as as mature
as Kelly Anne was, I thinkher age, that's when it plays a
factor in the actual choosing of her. But then as an abuser manipulating her.
Yeah, once I navigate the situationwith their parents and just wait till
(25:45):
she's sixteen, then we're good.What can they do nothing? Yeah,
And then it's a case of waituntil she's eighteen, then I can get
her into the highest Well, thisis the thing. Margaret did. Called
police, but they told her therewas nothing that they could do without a
statement from Kelly Anne. After speakingwith them and domestic abuse centers, Margaret
(26:07):
was advised to make a doctor's appointmentin Kelly Anne's name, but to actually
go herself and inform the doctor whather suspicions were, so that if Kelly
Ann ever did show up with anycomplaints that it would be on file.
At this point, though I don'tknow if a doctor would actually do that
for you, No, I don'tthink so. They're very strict like nowadays,
(26:30):
Like it's to the point now thatlike if I make a doctor's appointment,
I can't even bring Anna in withme, to be like, oh,
whilst time here, Anna fel theother day and yeah, you know,
like I have to make a separateappointment for her. Yeah. But
I feel like if they would takeyou, it's a good idea because at
(26:52):
least the doctor would know what tolook out for. Although, to be
honest, I think doctors are nowwild trained in that. Like back then,
back in the nineties and early twothousands, it wasn't high priority.
I don't mean that in a badway. I mean isn't like when I
was pregnant with Anna and we firstwent to like our hospital appointments and they
(27:18):
brought me up to the MLU,which is like midwives Lead Unit, which
is like where you have to doeverything naturally, but you get like your
own private suite and it's much better, and they're asking you questions like about
family history and stuff like that,all these kind of questions just so they
know to kind of like what tolook out for. And then when cattle
left the room, they were like, now is your home safe? Like
(27:41):
are you safe? Oh okay?Yeah, Like they are like, is
everything okay at home? Are yousafe? Like it's like up there with
their questions, Oh okay, that'sreally interesting where I don't think they would
have done that back then. Yeah. I think I feel now it's very
(28:02):
much at the forefront, like areyou safe from home? Yeah. In
November of nineteen ninety five, KellyAnne moved in with Smith at his residence
on Furnival Road in Gorton, Manchester. Just about her parents not being overjoyed,
Kelly Anne promised to keep in touchand visit often. After all,
(28:23):
like why wouldn't she you know,there's no reason why she wouldn't keep in
touch. Kelly Ann would speak toher parents most weeks on the phone,
but as time went on, thephone calls would become less and less,
and when they did get to hearfrom her, it was clear that Smith
was there, as Kelly Anne wouldseem to get somewhat stiff. By this
(28:44):
point, Kelly Anne had said thatshe had gotten a new job and they
were offering her plenty of overtime,and so that means that she's going to
be your end to visit less often. In reality, she had joined Smith
in unemployment, something I'm sure heforced her to do. The parents would
try to visit often, but Smithwas always there, and at some point
(29:07):
they started to get worried that theirpresence was actually going to make things worse
for Kelly Anne. Yeah, Iget that because, like as an abuser,
but they're like, did you callthem? Why the fuck are they
here? Did you tell them likeI did something to you that? And
then you know, your parents areso annoying and then flying into a race,
(29:29):
like because they're paranoid because they knowwhat they're doing is wrong. So
they're like paranoid that they're like,you know that they're going to get find
out. And then on top ofit, it's like, your father looked
at me this way, that's yourfault. Yeah. One time when her
parents went to visit her, theywant like I think it was probably the
first time. They just wanted tosee where she was living, like this
(29:49):
is not their kind of area atall. As they sat drinking tea in
the kitchen, Kelly Anne sat withher head down and Smith showed them a
hole in the ground that some repairwork had left behind the hole would actually
be used for much darker purposes.Oh God. One day, after not
(30:12):
hearing from Kelly Anne for a while, they decided to go and visit.
They were getting ready to leave thehouse when their son walked in the door
and excitedly told them that a friendof his had seen Kelly Anne and that
she seemed well unhappy. They wereall right with this, so they settled
back into the home. However,the friend had actually seen Kelly Anne in
(30:33):
December, and at this point we'renow into the next year of nineteen ninety
six, so it had been acouple of months. Her brother at one
point even showed up to Smith's tosee Kelly Anne, only to be told
she wasn't there, which she obviouslywas because where else would she be.
A concerned neighbor even knocked around tosee Kellyanne to make sure that she was
(30:56):
okay, but they were only ableto see her from the droom window.
On the tenth of March, Margaretcalled Kelly Anne to let her know that
she'd missed a dental appointment. Thatwas the last contact they'd have with their
daughter. It was just after Mother'sDay when Margaret got a Mother's Day card
from Kelly in Smith's handwriting, andthen more came for Tommy's birthday and then
(31:18):
their anniversary, and that's when sheknew that things had gotten extremely bad.
You just know, when the carrotsare showing up in his handwriting, it's
like, did she hurt her hand? Yeah? And at the same time,
this is her family, She's closeto her family. There's no calls,
there's no visits. The cards thatshe said she was going to send,
(31:41):
like, why are they in hishandwriting? What's going on? Her
parents are right to be concerned,just based on the apparent treatment of their
daughter. What they didn't know wasthat James Patterson Smith had a history of
abusing his partners. James had beenmarried and divorced after ten years due to
domestic violence. James then dated twentyyear old Tina Watson from nineteen eighty to
(32:07):
nineteen eighty two, apparently using heras a quote hunchback. He even hit
her over the head with an ashtrayand then tried to drown her while she
was in the bath and I believepregnant with his child. Oh my god.
Thankfully she was able to escape afterthis relationship ends. He goes for
fifteen year old Wendy mother's head andagain she is subjected to a lot of
(32:30):
violence, and he also tried todrown her in the kitchen sink. I
believe by filling up the se andholding her head in it. You can
see as well the ages are gettinglower. Thing for water, Yeah,
starts up. It's obviously like thefirst girlfriend was too old, she was
(32:50):
too hard to control. The secondgirlfriend little easier to control, but still
slightly too old, still a littlebit harder to kind of convince. And
well, they were very lucky thatthey managed to get away. Kelly Anne
would not be so lucky. Andwe're just going to take a quick at
break here. Over a period ofapproximately four weeks, Kelly Anne would be
(33:20):
relentlessly tortured by an incredibly evil man. When the police turned up to Smith's
home on the sixteenth of April nineteenninety six, the scene was gruesome.
Kelly Anne was found lifeless in abedroom. It didn't take a forensic examiner
to realize that this has been noaccident, so he went to the police
(33:40):
station and said she drowned in thebath, and then the police found her
on the bed or in the bedroom. Yeah, I believe. So that's
weird. Well, he's saying atthe time, it was probably like oh,
I tried to resuscitate her. KellyAnn's blood was found in every single
(34:01):
room of the house. Her autopsyshowed if she frowned, why, like
I said, this man does nothave more than two brain cells to rub
together. Her autopsy showed that shehad over one hundred and fifty stab wounds
alone, caused by multiple instruments,including forks. She was extremely malnourished and
(34:22):
dehydrated, having lost her and twentykilos. To keep her in place,
Smith would tie Kelly Anne to radiatorsand other furniture by her hair. There
were marks on her neck that indicatedshe had been strangled. Smith used cigarettes
and a hot iron to brand herin different areas of her body, including
(34:42):
her inner thigh. Oh scalding hotwater had been poured on her, marking
her books and legs, her wholeface, her nose, mouth, eyebrows,
ears, and her genitals had beenmutilated. If guys ray at the
sixteen year old girl, that's noteven half of it. Smith had crushed
(35:07):
her hands, feet, and kneecapsto make escape absolutely impossible. Her arm
was fractured, and she had beenpartially scalped. These injuries alone are obviously
horrific and one of, if notthe worst case I've ever heard about.
However, it does get worse,and so these aren't what killed her.
(35:30):
Like she had to endure all ofthis. As part of the pathologist William
Lawler quote not less than five daysand not more than three weeks before her
death, Kelly Anne's eyes had beengudged out. The autopsy showed that Kelly
Ann had not only stab wounds onthe inside of her mouth, but on
(35:51):
the inside of the now empty eyesockets. He gauged at her eyes alive,
she was alive, and she wasalive or at least five days before
I can't even imagine. And thenhe would wait until the socket would start
(36:12):
to heal and he would stab it, and then he'd stab it again.
That's sadistic, Like that is therage that man put onto a sixteen year
old girl. I think it maybe one of the worst things that I've
ever heard, to be honest withyou, Yeah, that's up there,
like has to be, because I'veheard of serial killers do all of these
(36:37):
things, but not to one person. He just used her like a doll,
like like a punchbag, like likehis previous girlfriend. Like it's almost
like he was just trying to see, like can I guidge out her eyes?
Or will that killer? Let's findout? Yeah, keep in mind
that this man is somebody that hespent a couple of years grooming her,
(37:00):
Like he started things off like whyI love you? You know she loved
him. She's supposed to feel safewith this man. He's so much older
than her. Why would he dosomething like this to her? It's just
I've often been questioned like what iswrong with people? Why do they?
(37:21):
You know, like you're like whyis wrong with them? Like? Why
do they go kill? Why didthey go do this? No, what
is wrong with this man? Thereis something so seriously wrong with you that
you think as a man of almostfifty years of age, and you think
to yourself, that's sixteen year oldgirl. I'm going to break all of
(37:45):
her hands and all of her feetso she can't escape me. I'm gonna
tie her to the radiator with herhair. Do you know how hard you'd
have to stab somebody, how muchforce you'd have to put behind stabbing somebody
with a fork. I don't wantto think about it. That's just realistically.
If your steak is too tough,and this man managed to stab her
(38:07):
with the fork, Yep, horrifying. Kelly Anne's official cause of death was
drowning. He must have had herin the bath before he beat her with
the shower head, causing her todrown in the bathwater. The pathologist said
that he had completed over six hundredautopsies, but he had never seen a
(38:30):
case as horrific as this. Yeah, Margaret knew what had happened the second
police knocked on her door. Sheknew that man had killed her only daughter.
Tommy had to go and identify hisonly daughters, His sixteen year old
child's body that is mutilated, completelyand utterly mutilated with scars. We doesn't
(38:55):
have her eyes, of course.James Patterson Smith is arrested almost as quickly
as he walked into that police station. Once they got to that house,
they were like, yo, keepthat guy. Did he think that they
were going to like? How washe going to explain? I don't really
(39:15):
know what his plan was. Ithink so. I think what happened is
he walked into that police station hetried to say that she did die from
drowning, and then he said somethingalong the lines off, oh, I've
I've really done it now, Likehe said something like that to a police
officer, and I think at thatpoint then they knew. Do you think
(39:37):
he was hoping to say, like, oh, my girlfriend drowned and then
hoping that he'd be able to justleave the station. I don't know.
I really don't know what his planwas, because, bro, she's missing
her eyes. How are you goingto explain that? When it came time
for trial, he would not admitthat he abused Gallian. He said that
(39:59):
she god him into doing these thingsby impersonating his dead mother and daring him
to do these things to her,as in by like go on do it,
stab me. You won't do it. As many times as someone would
be like go on, stab me, do it, I'd like what,
(40:19):
No, you're weird, though,yeah, get out of my house.
You wouldn't just be like, okay, all right, I guess I will
guess. I have to know youasked for it, you know, no,
I And then he said she hada quote bad habit of hurting herself
to make it look worse on me, I wonder to who is this making
(40:42):
you look worse? Because you didn'tlet her leave the house. Nobody was
allowed to see her, So whatthe fuck is casually broke both hands and
feet. She broke her own,her own knees. Of course, she
broke her own What make it makesense? If you're gonna pretend like it
(41:05):
wasn't you at least come up withbetter excuses. The prosecution told the jury,
quote, the injuries were not theresult of one sudden eruption of violence.
They must have been caused over along period and were so extensive and
so terrible that the defendant must havedeliberately and systematically tortured the girl. After
(41:30):
only an hour of deliberations, JamesPatterson Smith was found guilty. The judge,
Mister Justice Sachs, said, quote, you are a highly dangerous person.
You are an abuser of women,and I intend, so far as
it is in my power, thatyou will abuse no more. Justin Patterson
Smith was given a life sentence.Due to the disturbing material and evidence the
(41:57):
jury had to review, they wereall offered pen sling, and every single
jury member accepted it. He inrecent years did apply for parole saying that
he was now a changed man,but he is very quickly rejected good.
A little bit more on the family, Margaret Bates actually did die of respiratory
(42:19):
failure in December of twenty nineteen,aged sixty five, after two battles with
breast cancer, leaving behind her husband, Tommy, and her two sons.
Before her death, Margaret worked ata checkout at a supermarket, although their
family home had already been torn down. She said she could see the site
from where her checkout was through thewindow and would say that she could feel
(42:44):
Kelly on with her at the checkoutsometimes. You know, just that is
like the cutest thing in the world. I know, it just breaks my
heart. And people were saying thatlike Margaret was absolutely lovely. She was
always polite, friendly, like willingto offer a hand, like this awful,
(43:08):
awful man took her daughter away,and she still managed to stay like
positive in life, and she didn'tlet it like consume her life to the
point where like she was just thatmean old lady, do you know what
I mean. In nineteen ninety seven, Tommy and Margaret actually set up a
group called Support after murder or Man'sdaughter in Ashton so it's a support group
(43:34):
for families who have been affected,but this kind of crime. So that
is the story. And I don'tknow what was going on with the water
in Manchester at the time, becauseit was reminding me obviously a lot of
the case of Suzanne Kapper. Right, yeah, I said, it's a
(43:55):
torture case. Happened in the nineties, so I checked it out. The
house that Susanne Kapper was tortured inwas only a sixteen minute drive from where
Kelly Anne had been kept. Ohmy god, that's wild. Susanne Capper
was murdered in nineteen ninety two,and then Kelly Anne was murdered in nineteen
(44:16):
ninety six. What the fuck?Manchester only four only four years apart.
That's like they're big murder cases.Well, at the time, Susanne Capper
didn't really receive a lot of mediaattention. Oh no, yeah, Kelly
Anne Bates, she did get obviouslya bit more. Well at the time,
(44:37):
No, Susan Kapper didn't really receivea lot of attention to think like
that man was in her life forthree years and how much damage he caused.
Oh yeah, he looks like JimmySavile for sure time. There's the
parents and then there's Kelly Anne.She was so sweet, she like,
(45:01):
she was so cute looking. Youknow. The mother and father looked the
type looked like the type of peoplethat like would offer you cup of tea.
Yeah, you know, they'd belike you all right, love,
you need the cup of tea?Yeah, Like look at her here here
a little fringe. Isn't that justme? Unadorable? She's like little dogs,
(45:25):
little Dalmatians of under one Dalmatians onher top. Like, I don't
know this case. I heard itonce on a podcast like a couple of
years ago, and I spent oneof those that like you kind of in
your head like yeah, yeah,like follows your end. And when you
think of, say, the likesof um, you know, the Hello
(45:47):
Kittie murder and stuff like that,like other torture murderers that are so talked
about and often everybody talks about them, which of course they deserve to be
talked about, and they deserve exposuretalked about. But it's almost amazing to
me that this is not a betterknown case because that is a horrific amount
(46:08):
of rage an attack on a person. Yeah, it's it's the grooming as
well, and the fact that ithappened so easily. So that's the case
of Kenny and Dates. That's allI have to say. And one thing
I will ask is if you dolook this up, be careful. In
(46:32):
terms of the pictures. There aren'tfrom what I could find, and I
didn't go looking for them. Idid not find any pictures of her at
the crime scene, but that's notto say it's not to say they don't
exist. And I have heard ofpeople saying that they did see a couple.
So I'm just asking you to bevery very careful if you do decide
(46:52):
to kind of do your own investigationinto this case. Yeah. What it's
just amazing about this is how thefamily person and her they were just able
to keep going. They made asupport group, they wanted to help others,
they wanted to reach out, andit's just absolutely amazing what they were
able to make out of this.Yeah, because when stuff like this,
(47:15):
obviously so horrific and so traumatic,happens, it's very easy to just let
that be your life then and thenlike you just live in a dark hole
of like this happened, you knowwhat I mean? Were these were the
type of people that were just like, no, this isn't how she wanted
(47:36):
to live her life, and like, this isn't what she'd want to be
remembered for. She'd want to beremembered for like a support group. Yeah,
and that's something that makes me reallyhappy. And the fact that when
you google this this case, it'snot like his picture isn't it's all her
and her parents. It's all her, yeah, looking happy, you know,
(47:59):
like she there's a picture of herwhere she's feeding a baby and she
just looks within her element. Andit kills me to see that this fucking
absolute animal of it. Animals wouldn'tdo that to each other. And literally,
I was just going to say,animal is even too kind of a
description from him. There would notdo that too. This man was just
(48:24):
fucking sadistic and cruel. I wasjust gonna say, the only good thing
is that he's most more than likelygoing to die in prison. At this
moment in time, he would bein his seventies. Well, you know
what, I think prison is toogood for him. I genuinely don't really
degree with the death sentence. Thereare I think special cases where I'm like,
(48:49):
you know what, and he's upthere in that. There's a few
things that I have to say aboutthe death sentence and about how you know
one innocent person is not worth allthat kind of a thing, and there
is an argument to be made.But at the same time, when it
comes to people like this that havedone something so vile, I don't want
them to die. I want themto live in pain forever. You know
(49:15):
what the thing is. I don'tactually believe that Margaret ever fully knew what
happened to Kelly Anne, because shesaid she was better off. She said
at one point that she would pickup the phone and go to call the
coroner so that she could hear thedetails, and then she would just going,
(49:37):
no, no, it's not worthit. I'd say as well,
though, like her husband was like, please don't for your sanity and mine
anyway, for mine, yours andthe listener sanity. I would like to
end the episode here, thank youso much for listening to this, and
(50:00):
I hope you're all okay, andalways remember to check in on your family
and friends, because I think thatis just a strong reminder of that.
Yeah, if you can get achance to check us to support after murder
our man's daughter group. If youneed it, we'll put it in the
show notes obviously with our references andeverything like that. Yeah, just look
(50:20):
after yourselves, look after each other, and and look after us by doing
so. You can follow us onTwitter and Instagram and Facebook and everywhere all
at give us More. If youwant to see who you're listening to,
you can always follow our own personalinstagrams, which is at Magpile, Underscore
(50:45):
and at Life's Names. You canalso subscribe to us wherever you listen to
your podcast and let us leave us. Don't leave us, leave us a
review. You don't want to livemy life, It's fine, you can
leave us a review. You canfind us pretty much everywhere that you can
(51:09):
get your podcasts, such as Spotifyand Apple Music Slash Apple Podcasts. And
if you really liked this episode andhaven't done so already, you can go
check out some of our other episodes, such as last week where I talked
about Grand Out Louise Pete and nextweek I'm sorry it's not gonna get much
(51:35):
Jessy here not looking forward to it, but so if you thought this was
hard, and just prepare yourselves fora roller coaster of possibly a three part
three part see Jesus Christ. Okay, and leave us a comment on what
you think I'm possibly covering, Andthank you so much for listening, and
(51:58):
we'll see you guys on the Flipsand follies. It's a want
Hi, and welcome back to giveus Mark. I'm Neve, I'm Megan,
and you were listening to mar eisode. That was my little intro.
I hope you all liked it.I thought it was beautiful. Thanks.
I've been taking singing lessons. Wow, I can really tell Arianna Grande who
(00:30):
I mean, It's more like TaylorSwift. But whatever, I mean,
I'll go how is everybody? Thisweek? Megan has a I'm told fantastic
episode from us that won't make mecry, it's gonna make you cry.
I guess we'll just jump right inbecause if it's gonna make me cry,
(00:51):
it's probably gonna be long. Imean, the case itself is a straightforward
story, and unfortunately, I thinkit's something that maybe we have seen before,
not in this podcast, but inour personal lives. Oh. I
think we've all kind of maybe seenthis kind of pattern in relationships of people
(01:14):
that we either know or have stumbledacross. So I want to say that
this is a torture episode in whichthe victim does die because of torture.
So if you can't handle that,please just skip ahead. But that is
the only warning I'll be giving forthis whole episode. Because the whole thing
(01:38):
is just complete. Is it likepsychological or is it grisome? It's it's
trus say a little bit of both. But yeah, okay, So if
like I know, like a lotof people don't like to hear about the
gruesom tales I have felt not tales. They're not tales, They're stories of
real life people. But you knowwhat I mean. So we're just going
(02:00):
to get into it then, Ofriend, guys. On the sixteenth of
April nineteen ninety six, James PattersonSmith walked into a Manchester police station and
told the officers there that his girlfriendhad just drowned in the bathtub. Police
(02:23):
officers rushed to Smith's home to avery gruesome scene. So to go back
to the beginning. Kelly Anne wasborn on the eighteenth of May nineteen seventy
eight and lived with her parents inMotram, which is a small town just
outside of Manchester. Her parents wereMargaret and Tommy Bates, and Kelly Anne
(02:44):
had two brothers, Andrew and Paul. As a little girl, Margaret says
Kelly Anne was a tomboy and sheloved kids. Quote. Kelly loved children
and wanted to be a teacher.She was soft hearted and very maternal,
which I don't know, I thinkthat is so cute. You know when
you see kids, they're kind oflike it a little bit older, but
(03:07):
they really love to kind of lookafter the younger ones. And yeah,
I mean, ye want to bedescribed h She loved hockey and would spend
her weekend's babysitting and working at amarket stall. Apparently everyone who knew her
said that she had a quote oldsoul, which I think, like we
(03:29):
all know what that means, likesomebody that's just really gentle and beautiful,
and she's just like a genuine personwho's just like caring of other people,
and like she's sensible exactly, sheis sensible. And that's what everybody would
kind of say about her, isthat she had her wits about her a
bit and she was a very confidentyoung woman. Kelly Anne was incredibly close
(03:54):
with her family, especially her parents. They had a lot of trust between
them. Like I said, KellyAnne often babysat for neighbors and it was
during one of these evenings baby sittingin nineteen ninety three that she met a
man named James Patterson Smith. Atthe time that they met. Kelly Anne
(04:15):
was only fourteen and James was aripe old forty five year old man.
I'm sorry what I thought you weregoing to say, like twenty or something.
No, no, absolute, thisman was Oh my god, he's
like Paul Breach. Don't you bringhim into this podcast? Do not.
(04:36):
I do not want to hear thatman's name. Absolutely not, Green,
green Grass, blue blue, absolutelynot. You have to know, you
have to bring your fucking sleeve halfwaydown your hand. You think, oh,
the ech the absolute ich Yeah,sorry it Why is he so old?
(05:02):
Not not all breached? Well thesame good said when he's texted sixteen
year olds. But um, that'snot my business. I mean it should
be somebody's business. It's like fuckingthe population of TikTok's business. Yeah,
(05:25):
TikTok will have him arrested. Theywill win this battle. He uses the
police as his own personal bodyguards.There he I'm sorry. The funniest is
that he called the guards all thepolice. If a bunch of teenagers were
heckling him, We're saying, hotchucky walkie, the police to come and
(05:51):
get them. Why didn't he Whydidn't he just get a taxi home so
funny. But yeah, this guyJames, he was forty five. That's
nasty. Fourteen he said, fourteenmm, that is foul. In what
(06:17):
dimension does a forty five year oldhave something in common with the fourteen year
old? What age he was liketwenty one when she was born or some
shit, not even oldertyving me todo math and the math is not math
in okay, he was like thirtyone when she was born. He's forty.
(06:41):
I feel ill. That is disgusting. First of all, why are
you attracted to a fourteen year old? What possibly could a forty five year
old man have in common with afourteen year old girl? And like,
from her perspective, when you're afourteen year old girl and this older dude,
can I ask the question, ishe at least like somewhat good looking?
(07:04):
Absolutely not. It looks like JimmySavile. Oh my god, that's
even worse. So like from becauseI was going to say, from her
perspective, she's a fourteen year oldgirl and this like attractive older man is
like interested in her. So she'slike thinks it's cool. Well, people
were attracted to Jimmy Savile back inthe day as well, though, Yeah,
(07:29):
you know what, this is nothelping things, because before this episode,
I was watching To Catch a Predatorand it was just so many gross
old men looking for thirteen and fourteenyear olds. I was like, Okay.
When guy walked into the house andjust pulled down his zip and Chris
Hamson walks in, He's like,what are you doing with your zip?
(07:50):
There? Are you doing with yourpants there? He's like, oh,
my zip just fell down. Ohit's just it's broken. My zip is
broken. I don't know. Ijust decided to bring alcohol condom and loops
just for emergency. I'm holding themfor a friend. They're not mine,
(08:11):
Chris, go Chris, it's myfriend that's the pedophile, not me.
My friend has asked me to comescope it out first to see if it
was you. You know what,I bet you somebody has at least tried
to use that excuse. They're wildand their excuses, Oh, their excuses
are up there. So like fortyfive and fourteen is just completely and utterly
(08:37):
disgusting. Yeah, and he knewit too. Anyway, we'll get to
that later on in the story.But that night, she was apparently babysitting
for like his friends, and hecame over then later on and when he
met her he was like, oh, I'll walk you home. So that
night he did apparently walk her homeand just from there they just apparently got
(08:58):
on really well. How do youget on so well with a fourteen year
old? Like, doesn't mean youto go fucking dater? Yes, sick.
Oh well, it's probably easy toget on with the fourteen year old.
And with the type of person thatJames is, he's just a predator.
(09:20):
No. When I say like,how do you get on? I
mean, how do you get onso well that you're like, oh,
she could make a great girlfriend.But this is the thing, I don't
think he's ever thinking, I don'tknow what way these people's work. He's
just yeah, I just I don'tthink I'll ever understand it. Like,
how can you look at someone soyoung, when you're that age and think
(09:43):
to yourself, I'd bone her.Yeah you know what I mean, that's
just what wash. Yeah, you'vegot something very very wrong with you.
Seriously. Yeah. And I even, like in my notes I said,
like a young girl or teenager,when somebody, when someone has really showing
(10:03):
you a lot of attention, youdo feel really important and cool and loved
and special. Yeah, like she'sfourteen, Like she thinks to herself,
Oh, wow, like this cool, cooler, older guy like fancies me.
Like she's like, wow, that'sso cool, Like yeah, I
can tell my friends yeah, Andshe's like wow, Like that would like
(10:26):
almost boost her confidence and be like, wow, I must be like so
mature, mature and good looking thathe fancies me one hundred and ten percent,
Like you don't think, oh thisis weird, well, like why
is he interested in me? You'relike, why wouldn't he be like exact
shit cool, you know, exactly, And so Smith began the grooming process,
(10:52):
which is exactly what this is,oh one person percent. They're kind
of dating in the background for awhile, nobody really knows, and one
day Kerry just comes home with thishuge bruise on her eye, which apparently
kind of almost took up her wholeface, like one side of her face.
Jesus. Obviously, Margaret her motherasked about it, and she just
(11:16):
explained it away by saying that agroup of girls just jumped her on the
way home from school. What thehell even at that? Would me be
like? That's like what? Likewho who? Are these girls? Why
did they jump you? What's goingon? Yeah, Like you'd have so
many questions being like did you sayanything to them to rile them up?
(11:37):
Like did they steal anything from you? Do you know them? Are they
from your school? Is this anongoing problem? Well, nobody's going to
think that this has to do witha grown man. No, of course,
not like as a parent, likewhen Anna reaches that age and she
comes home with like a black eye, Like I'm not going to assume that
a grown ass man that she's secretlydating has done it to her. Of
(12:00):
course not. Why would you,Like, no parent in their right mind
would be at all okay, okaywith no no. However, she does
tell her parents that she does havea boyfriend by the name of Dave Smith.
They're not too concerned. Kelly isan independent girl, so they just
they're happy for her. They justinnocently enough assume little boyfriend and girlfriend,
(12:24):
you know, nice cute and likebecause she's so sensible and so grown up
for her age and is a prettydecent Like she's a decent young girl,
Like she doesn't get herself into trouble, like you would just be like,
yeah, that's Okay, like it'sprobably just a boy from school and she
probably just doesn't want us to meetthem yet, Like it's fine, yeah,
(12:46):
exactly, Like you wouldn't question herbecause she's so sensible. Yeah,
you're like, Okay, she's gotthis down. She's young. They're probably
not thinking about like sex or anythingat this stage. Let's just let them
have they're innocent kind of thing.Yeah. At around this time, Kelly
Anne started sneaking it out of thehouse and staying at all night. Of
(13:09):
course, this concerning her parents,as she's obviously only fourteen. She wasn't
like staying out with her friends oranything like that like me and you might
have done back in the day.She was going straight to Smith's after school
on a Friday and staying there allweekend and coming home on Sunday evening to
(13:31):
get ready for school the next day. Yeah, like that's not now at
this point, that's not great.This is where things kind of start to
get a little more fucked up.At this point, James aka Dave would
actually ring the parents home and speakto them about Kelly Anne, saying that
(13:54):
he was also worried about her stayingat all night, Like he knew how
long it would take for her toget the bus from his place to hers,
how long it would take her towalk from the bus stop home,
and he would ring within like acouple of minutes it took to get her
home. So he had counted thisall out, like he knew where she
(14:16):
was supposed to be at all times. And from what I can understand,
I think the parents thought this isoh, this is really sweet, and
they're obviously at this stage still thinkingthat he's just like someone from her class,
not thinking that it's an older man. I mean, I struggle with
this a little bit, unless mytimeline is wrong, because I am open
to that, because there isn't likethe timeline jumps around. There isn't a
(14:41):
direct wherever you go. I mean, they could know that it's not someone
from her class, but they couldbe assuming that he's not forty five.
They could be assuming that he's likenineteen. I'm so sorry, though,
somebody who is forty five does sounddifferent on the phone to nineteen or old.
Yeah, just thought, oh,like he's super mature or whatever.
(15:03):
I don't know, and I'm nothere in any way shape or for him
to blame anybody or anything like thatno, no, no, no,
yeah, except for him. Atthis point. Margaret and Tommy hadn't even
met Dave. One day when KellyAnne was sixteen and an adult, and
I say that I think at thetime it was like you're considered an adult
(15:26):
in legal terms if in England.At the time, her parents came home
from being out and she'd actually broughthim over to the house. Margaret said
he from the beginning was overconfident andquote smarmie and when you hear somebody say
the words smarmie, you're like,yeah, he's like he's like a worm.
(15:50):
To me, it's Smermie is like, he's a cocky little shit who's
a smart, aunt cheeky, notan acute way in a like watch your
fucking self. The vibe that he'slike, you know when you go to
the pub and you meet the oldguy that's always there and he knows too
much. He's like, oh,did you know that this business or whatever
(16:12):
you say you're going to be completelywrong about and he's going to explain exactly
how you're wrong about it. Yeah, that's a vibe I gett And he
was coming down the stairs when Margaretfirst saw him, and he said,
quote, nice to meet you.Finally, excuse me, and first of
(16:32):
all, what are you doing upstairs? Why are you upstairs in my home?
Bick freak, get out, getout of my house. Don't say
finally to me. You're the onethat's been hiding this whole time. You
would be as a parent, firstof all, has scared would you be?
How scared would you be to seea forty seven year old man walking
down your stairs? I'd say herheart just dropped. You'd be like,
(16:57):
what the fuck? Who are you? Why are you in my house?
Well, Margaret says all she couldthink about. That's how she wanted to
immediately get rid of him. She'slike, she's like, this is clearly
not a young boy or even ayoung man. Like she's like, this
is out of my remmate, thisis not what I thought? Whatsoever?
Yeah? Yeah, like does it? At first, she believed to be
(17:19):
like either someone from her class orsomeone slightly older, But she obviously was
thinking like nineteen twenty, not someonewho is old enough to be her literal
father, literally around when the fuckingwheel was invented, Like with your fourteen
year old actually sixteen at this stageyear old daughter at this stage. Yeah.
(17:42):
Yeah. And one thing about himis he looks his age like he
looks not to say god, butyou know, he looks old, like
he's weathered. He looks yeah,like he doesn't look like a young forty
five or forty seven. He looksYeah. I would say he actually looks
older in my opinion. Then thatwhen you see a picture of him,
(18:03):
and I'll show you one, itgives you old pub guy in the corner.
Yeah. Yes. Margaret will goon to say how she remembers going
into the kitchen seeing a bread knifeand all she wanted to do was stobbed
this man and kill him and gethim away from her daughter. Mother inks
thinked, like, of course you'dbe so concerned as to why this older
(18:27):
man wants what he want with mychild. Quote the first time I met
him, he swaggered in and itmade the hairs stand up on the back
of my neck. He was mucholder than I expected. I visitly recalled
seeing our bread knife in the kitchenand wanting to pick it up and stab
him in the back. It wasa bizarre thought. I would never normally
(18:49):
think of anything so violent, Andnow I wonder whether it was some sort
of sixth sense. Looking back,it's my greatest regret that I didn't kill
him there and then it would havesaved my daughter's life. No, that's
so sad, you know, Margaret, you're a great mother. Don't blame
yourself. So just here, we'rejust going to take a quick ad break.
(19:17):
We are back from the ad.At this time, Kelly Anne had
told her family that Smith was,in fact thirty two, which is all
ready an astounding age difference. That'strying to make himself half her age,
like her half his age. Butthe truth was that he is well over
(19:37):
half right, well over. Thetruth was like, exactly what like you
said, he was actually about fortyseven or forty eight, making him a
year older than Kelly Anne's own father. Margaret and Tommy at this stage,
they didn't really know what to do. They thought if they pushed her,
it would just send her further intohis arms. Yeah, I get that.
(19:59):
After Kelly Anne him home multiple timeswith bruises and other injuries like white
marks, Margaret tried to speak toher about this man. Obviously She's like,
no, he's good to me.I love him. Her appearance also
began to change. She seemed notto be showering, her hair and clothes
would be dirty, and even herposture changed. It was at this point
(20:21):
she kind of started to bring hershoulders in on herself. You could see
like her world just getting smaller andtighter and more possessed by him. One
and ten percent. The grit thatthis man had on a teenager is absolutely
terrifying. And again, as aparent, how are you supposed to navigate
(20:42):
this situation? What are you supposedto do? You don't want to tell
her that she can't see him,because that's just not going to work and
she's just going to want him more. But then you don't want to just
let her see him because he's thisway older guy that you see clear as
day is not good news and isnot good for her, is abusing her.
(21:07):
So it's like, where's the fineline, Like where is the correct
thing to do or say? AndI think everybody listening, even ourselves,
that we can sit here retrospectively,looking back on the situation and be like,
well I would do this, andI would do that, But you
don't know until you're in that highpressure intent situation. No, And for
(21:30):
people that are listening to this saying, they should have just locked her in
her room and blah blah blah blah. That's not a solution either, because
that's also not good for her mentalhealth and for her well being, Like
you have to do it in away that gets across to her. Her
home house with her parents is asafe space. And if she doesn't want
(21:55):
this man in her life, shedoes not have to have this. How
do you tell it's sixteen year oldor seventeen year old girl, If you
don't want this man in your life, you don't have to have him in
your life. This is a thingat that age, Like it's so hard
to break up with people. It'shard to even break off friendships, you
know, or things like that Harryis supposed to with somebody, especially when
(22:18):
they're basically your dad. I stronglybelieve that it is not until like twenty
five are over that you start tobe like, no, you're a toxic
person. I don't want you inmy life. Up until that point,
you're just like, oh no,but they're my friend. Oh yeah,
(22:38):
I can definitely agree, Like you'rejust like, oh no, but they're
my friend. So like you stickup for it, and it's and then
it's the same, it's like,oh no, but that's my boyfriend,
Like they love me. No,I don't know. You just learn to
stand up for yourself really, yeah, But I do think it's not until
like your later twenties that you kindof find the confidence to actually be like,
(23:03):
no, you're actually not a niceperson and I don't want you in
my life. And then you figureout your own way, and it's I
think that's when you really start tosee I think it's because like you're getting
older and you're starting these mature ventureslike moving out of home, and like
you start kind of doing all ofthat stuff later into your twenties, and
(23:25):
so then I think that's when you'relike, actually, don't want certain people
in my life anymore. Yeah,it's that. And then it's the life
experience and knowing how other people haveaffected you and how it affected your overall
well being, and you just getto a point where you're just like,
why am I allowing this to happento my sie? Am I allowing this?
For When you're like sixteen seventeen,it's a real case of oh,
(23:49):
no, but they love me.They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't
love me, And so it's like, how do you get her away from
that? At this point of thesituation, I don't even think this is
her age is massively relevant. Well, I do think it is relevant,
but I think that this guy,by this stage, he just has such
(24:12):
a hold on her that it's noteven about her age anymore. It's just
that this guy has mentally psychologically woreher that she's just like, oh no,
but I can't believe him. Yeah, And abusers have that way of
going about it. And I watchedI think she's a psychologist on YouTube talk
about this case and she'd covered thiscase on Crime in Kenton or Crime Plus
(24:34):
or something, Crime and Investigation,that's what it was. But she secondation
on the episode that she'd covered KellyAnn on that she didn't feel that she
got to do the case justice andit's not how she would have liked to
have talked about the case. Andshe was saying, you know how much
an abuser, no matter what theage is, they know how to pick
(25:00):
people that they feel they can manipulatefrom the get go. They are actively
looking for victims and maybe they're notin their brain thinking their word victim or
anything I'm looking for. Yeah,but it's like in the back of their
head, somewhere deep down, they'relike they're looking. She would be easy
to get her to do X,Y and zai, easier to control.
(25:22):
She's not going to go at youknow, she's not going to fight me
on this or whatever. Yeah,And in this situation, as as mature
as Kelly Anne was, I thinkher age, that's when it plays a
factor in the actual choosing of her. But then as an abuser manipulating her.
Yeah, once I navigate the situationwith their parents and just wait till
(25:45):
she's sixteen, then we're good.What can they do nothing? Yeah,
And then it's a case of waituntil she's eighteen, then I can get
her into the highest Well, thisis the thing. Margaret did. Called
police, but they told her therewas nothing that they could do without a
statement from Kelly Anne. After speakingwith them and domestic abuse centers, Margaret
(26:07):
was advised to make a doctor's appointmentin Kelly Anne's name, but to actually
go herself and inform the doctor whather suspicions were, so that if Kelly
Ann ever did show up with anycomplaints that it would be on file.
At this point, though I don'tknow if a doctor would actually do that
for you, No, I don'tthink so. They're very strict like nowadays,
(26:30):
Like it's to the point now thatlike if I make a doctor's appointment,
I can't even bring Anna in withme, to be like, oh,
whilst time here, Anna fel theother day and yeah, you know,
like I have to make a separateappointment for her. Yeah. But
I feel like if they would takeyou, it's a good idea because at
(26:52):
least the doctor would know what tolook out for. Although, to be
honest, I think doctors are nowwild trained in that. Like back then,
back in the nineties and early twothousands, it wasn't high priority.
I don't mean that in a badway. I mean isn't like when I
was pregnant with Anna and we firstwent to like our hospital appointments and they
(27:18):
brought me up to the MLU,which is like midwives Lead Unit, which
is like where you have to doeverything naturally, but you get like your
own private suite and it's much better, and they're asking you questions like about
family history and stuff like that,all these kind of questions just so they
know to kind of like what tolook out for. And then when cattle
left the room, they were like, now is your home safe? Like
(27:41):
are you safe? Oh okay?Yeah, Like they are like, is
everything okay at home? Are yousafe? Like it's like up there with
their questions, Oh okay, that'sreally interesting where I don't think they would
have done that back then. Yeah. I think I feel now it's very
(28:02):
much at the forefront, like areyou safe from home? Yeah. In
November of nineteen ninety five, KellyAnne moved in with Smith at his residence
on Furnival Road in Gorton, Manchester. Just about her parents not being overjoyed,
Kelly Anne promised to keep in touchand visit often. After all,
(28:23):
like why wouldn't she you know,there's no reason why she wouldn't keep in
touch. Kelly Ann would speak toher parents most weeks on the phone,
but as time went on, thephone calls would become less and less,
and when they did get to hearfrom her, it was clear that Smith
was there, as Kelly Anne wouldseem to get somewhat stiff. By this
(28:44):
point, Kelly Anne had said thatshe had gotten a new job and they
were offering her plenty of overtime,and so that means that she's going to
be your end to visit less often. In reality, she had joined Smith
in unemployment, something I'm sure heforced her to do. The parents would
try to visit often, but Smithwas always there, and at some point
(29:07):
they started to get worried that theirpresence was actually going to make things worse
for Kelly Anne. Yeah, Iget that because, like as an abuser,
but they're like, did you callthem? Why the fuck are they
here? Did you tell them likeI did something to you that? And
then you know, your parents areso annoying and then flying into a race,
(29:29):
like because they're paranoid because they knowwhat they're doing is wrong. So
they're like paranoid that they're like,you know that they're going to get find
out. And then on top ofit, it's like, your father looked
at me this way, that's yourfault. Yeah. One time when her
parents went to visit her, theywant like I think it was probably the
first time. They just wanted tosee where she was living, like this
(29:49):
is not their kind of area atall. As they sat drinking tea in
the kitchen, Kelly Anne sat withher head down and Smith showed them a
hole in the ground that some repairwork had left behind the hole would actually
be used for much darker purposes.Oh God. One day, after not
(30:12):
hearing from Kelly Anne for a while, they decided to go and visit.
They were getting ready to leave thehouse when their son walked in the door
and excitedly told them that a friendof his had seen Kelly Anne and that
she seemed well unhappy. They wereall right with this, so they settled
back into the home. However,the friend had actually seen Kelly Anne in
(30:33):
December, and at this point we'renow into the next year of nineteen ninety
six, so it had been acouple of months. Her brother at one
point even showed up to Smith's tosee Kelly Anne, only to be told
she wasn't there, which she obviouslywas because where else would she be.
A concerned neighbor even knocked around tosee Kellyanne to make sure that she was
(30:56):
okay, but they were only ableto see her from the droom window.
On the tenth of March, Margaretcalled Kelly Anne to let her know that
she'd missed a dental appointment. Thatwas the last contact they'd have with their
daughter. It was just after Mother'sDay when Margaret got a Mother's Day card
from Kelly in Smith's handwriting, andthen more came for Tommy's birthday and then
(31:18):
their anniversary, and that's when sheknew that things had gotten extremely bad.
You just know, when the carrotsare showing up in his handwriting, it's
like, did she hurt her hand? Yeah? And at the same time,
this is her family, She's closeto her family. There's no calls,
there's no visits. The cards thatshe said she was going to send,
(31:41):
like, why are they in hishandwriting? What's going on? Her
parents are right to be concerned,just based on the apparent treatment of their
daughter. What they didn't know wasthat James Patterson Smith had a history of
abusing his partners. James had beenmarried and divorced after ten years due to
domestic violence. James then dated twentyyear old Tina Watson from nineteen eighty to
(32:07):
nineteen eighty two, apparently using heras a quote hunchback. He even hit
her over the head with an ashtrayand then tried to drown her while she
was in the bath and I believepregnant with his child. Oh my god.
Thankfully she was able to escape afterthis relationship ends. He goes for
fifteen year old Wendy mother's head andagain she is subjected to a lot of
(32:30):
violence, and he also tried todrown her in the kitchen sink. I
believe by filling up the se andholding her head in it. You can
see as well the ages are gettinglower. Thing for water, Yeah,
starts up. It's obviously like thefirst girlfriend was too old, she was
(32:50):
too hard to control. The secondgirlfriend little easier to control, but still
slightly too old, still a littlebit harder to kind of convince. And
well, they were very lucky thatthey managed to get away. Kelly Anne
would not be so lucky. Andwe're just going to take a quick at
break here. Over a period ofapproximately four weeks, Kelly Anne would be
(33:20):
relentlessly tortured by an incredibly evil man. When the police turned up to Smith's
home on the sixteenth of April nineteenninety six, the scene was gruesome.
Kelly Anne was found lifeless in abedroom. It didn't take a forensic examiner
to realize that this has been noaccident, so he went to the police
(33:40):
station and said she drowned in thebath, and then the police found her
on the bed or in the bedroom. Yeah, I believe. So that's
weird. Well, he's saying atthe time, it was probably like oh,
I tried to resuscitate her. KellyAnn's blood was found in every single
(34:01):
room of the house. Her autopsyshowed if she frowned, why, like
I said, this man does nothave more than two brain cells to rub
together. Her autopsy showed that shehad over one hundred and fifty stab wounds
alone, caused by multiple instruments,including forks. She was extremely malnourished and
(34:22):
dehydrated, having lost her and twentykilos. To keep her in place,
Smith would tie Kelly Anne to radiatorsand other furniture by her hair. There
were marks on her neck that indicatedshe had been strangled. Smith used cigarettes
and a hot iron to brand herin different areas of her body, including
(34:42):
her inner thigh. Oh scalding hotwater had been poured on her, marking
her books and legs, her wholeface, her nose, mouth, eyebrows,
ears, and her genitals had beenmutilated. If guys ray at the
sixteen year old girl, that's noteven half of it. Smith had crushed
(35:07):
her hands, feet, and kneecapsto make escape absolutely impossible. Her arm
was fractured, and she had beenpartially scalped. These injuries alone are obviously
horrific and one of, if notthe worst case I've ever heard about.
However, it does get worse,and so these aren't what killed her.
(35:30):
Like she had to endure all ofthis. As part of the pathologist William
Lawler quote not less than five daysand not more than three weeks before her
death, Kelly Anne's eyes had beengudged out. The autopsy showed that Kelly
Ann had not only stab wounds onthe inside of her mouth, but on
(35:51):
the inside of the now empty eyesockets. He gauged at her eyes alive,
she was alive, and she wasalive or at least five days before
I can't even imagine. And thenhe would wait until the socket would start
(36:12):
to heal and he would stab it, and then he'd stab it again.
That's sadistic, Like that is therage that man put onto a sixteen year
old girl. I think it maybe one of the worst things that I've
ever heard, to be honest withyou, Yeah, that's up there,
like has to be, because I'veheard of serial killers do all of these
(36:37):
things, but not to one person. He just used her like a doll,
like like a punchbag, like likehis previous girlfriend. Like it's almost
like he was just trying to see, like can I guidge out her eyes?
Or will that killer? Let's findout? Yeah, keep in mind
that this man is somebody that hespent a couple of years grooming her,
(37:00):
Like he started things off like whyI love you? You know she loved
him. She's supposed to feel safewith this man. He's so much older
than her. Why would he dosomething like this to her? It's just
I've often been questioned like what iswrong with people? Why do they?
(37:21):
You know, like you're like whyis wrong with them? Like? Why
do they go kill? Why didthey go do this? No, what
is wrong with this man? Thereis something so seriously wrong with you that
you think as a man of almostfifty years of age, and you think
to yourself, that's sixteen year oldgirl. I'm going to break all of
(37:45):
her hands and all of her feetso she can't escape me. I'm gonna
tie her to the radiator with herhair. Do you know how hard you'd
have to stab somebody, how muchforce you'd have to put behind stabbing somebody
with a fork. I don't wantto think about it. That's just realistically.
If your steak is too tough,and this man managed to stab her
(38:07):
with the fork, Yep, horrifying. Kelly Anne's official cause of death was
drowning. He must have had herin the bath before he beat her with
the shower head, causing her todrown in the bathwater. The pathologist said
that he had completed over six hundredautopsies, but he had never seen a
(38:30):
case as horrific as this. Yeah, Margaret knew what had happened the second
police knocked on her door. Sheknew that man had killed her only daughter.
Tommy had to go and identify hisonly daughters, His sixteen year old
child's body that is mutilated, completelyand utterly mutilated with scars. We doesn't
(38:55):
have her eyes, of course.James Patterson Smith is arrested almost as quickly
as he walked into that police station. Once they got to that house,
they were like, yo, keepthat guy. Did he think that they
were going to like? How washe going to explain? I don't really
(39:15):
know what his plan was. Ithink so. I think what happened is
he walked into that police station hetried to say that she did die from
drowning, and then he said somethingalong the lines off, oh, I've
I've really done it now, Likehe said something like that to a police
officer, and I think at thatpoint then they knew. Do you think
(39:37):
he was hoping to say, like, oh, my girlfriend drowned and then
hoping that he'd be able to justleave the station. I don't know.
I really don't know what his planwas, because, bro, she's missing
her eyes. How are you goingto explain that? When it came time
for trial, he would not admitthat he abused Gallian. He said that
(39:59):
she god him into doing these thingsby impersonating his dead mother and daring him
to do these things to her,as in by like go on do it,
stab me. You won't do it. As many times as someone would
be like go on, stab me, do it, I'd like what,
(40:19):
No, you're weird, though,yeah, get out of my house.
You wouldn't just be like, okay, all right, I guess I will
guess. I have to know youasked for it, you know, no,
I And then he said she hada quote bad habit of hurting herself
to make it look worse on me, I wonder to who is this making
(40:42):
you look worse? Because you didn'tlet her leave the house. Nobody was
allowed to see her, So whatthe fuck is casually broke both hands and
feet. She broke her own,her own knees. Of course, she
broke her own What make it makesense? If you're gonna pretend like it
(41:05):
wasn't you at least come up withbetter excuses. The prosecution told the jury,
quote, the injuries were not theresult of one sudden eruption of violence.
They must have been caused over along period and were so extensive and
so terrible that the defendant must havedeliberately and systematically tortured the girl. After
(41:30):
only an hour of deliberations, JamesPatterson Smith was found guilty. The judge,
Mister Justice Sachs, said, quote, you are a highly dangerous person.
You are an abuser of women,and I intend, so far as
it is in my power, thatyou will abuse no more. Justin Patterson
Smith was given a life sentence.Due to the disturbing material and evidence the
(41:57):
jury had to review, they wereall offered pen sling, and every single
jury member accepted it. He inrecent years did apply for parole saying that
he was now a changed man,but he is very quickly rejected good.
A little bit more on the family, Margaret Bates actually did die of respiratory
(42:19):
failure in December of twenty nineteen,aged sixty five, after two battles with
breast cancer, leaving behind her husband, Tommy, and her two sons.
Before her death, Margaret worked ata checkout at a supermarket, although their
family home had already been torn down. She said she could see the site
from where her checkout was through thewindow and would say that she could feel
(42:44):
Kelly on with her at the checkoutsometimes. You know, just that is
like the cutest thing in the world. I know, it just breaks my
heart. And people were saying thatlike Margaret was absolutely lovely. She was
always polite, friendly, like willingto offer a hand, like this awful,
(43:08):
awful man took her daughter away,and she still managed to stay like
positive in life, and she didn'tlet it like consume her life to the
point where like she was just thatmean old lady, do you know what
I mean. In nineteen ninety seven, Tommy and Margaret actually set up a
group called Support after murder or Man'sdaughter in Ashton so it's a support group
(43:34):
for families who have been affected,but this kind of crime. So that
is the story. And I don'tknow what was going on with the water
in Manchester at the time, becauseit was reminding me obviously a lot of
the case of Suzanne Kapper. Right, yeah, I said, it's a
(43:55):
torture case. Happened in the nineties, so I checked it out. The
house that Susanne Kapper was tortured inwas only a sixteen minute drive from where
Kelly Anne had been kept. Ohmy god, that's wild. Susanne Capper
was murdered in nineteen ninety two,and then Kelly Anne was murdered in nineteen
(44:16):
ninety six. What the fuck?Manchester only four only four years apart.
That's like they're big murder cases.Well, at the time, Susanne Capper
didn't really receive a lot of mediaattention. Oh no, yeah, Kelly
Anne Bates, she did get obviouslya bit more. Well at the time,
(44:37):
No, Susan Kapper didn't really receivea lot of attention to think like
that man was in her life forthree years and how much damage he caused.
Oh yeah, he looks like JimmySavile for sure time. There's the
parents and then there's Kelly Anne.She was so sweet, she like,
(45:01):
she was so cute looking. Youknow. The mother and father looked the
type looked like the type of peoplethat like would offer you cup of tea.
Yeah, you know, they'd belike you all right, love,
you need the cup of tea?Yeah, Like look at her here here
a little fringe. Isn't that justme? Unadorable? She's like little dogs,
(45:25):
little Dalmatians of under one Dalmatians onher top. Like, I don't
know this case. I heard itonce on a podcast like a couple of
years ago, and I spent oneof those that like you kind of in
your head like yeah, yeah,like follows your end. And when you
think of, say, the likesof um, you know, the Hello
(45:47):
Kittie murder and stuff like that,like other torture murderers that are so talked
about and often everybody talks about them, which of course they deserve to be
talked about, and they deserve exposuretalked about. But it's almost amazing to
me that this is not a betterknown case because that is a horrific amount
(46:08):
of rage an attack on a person. Yeah, it's it's the grooming as
well, and the fact that ithappened so easily. So that's the case
of Kenny and Dates. That's allI have to say. And one thing
I will ask is if you dolook this up, be careful. In
(46:32):
terms of the pictures. There aren'tfrom what I could find, and I
didn't go looking for them. Idid not find any pictures of her at
the crime scene, but that's notto say it's not to say they don't
exist. And I have heard ofpeople saying that they did see a couple.
So I'm just asking you to bevery very careful if you do decide
(46:52):
to kind of do your own investigationinto this case. Yeah. What it's
just amazing about this is how thefamily person and her they were just able
to keep going. They made asupport group, they wanted to help others,
they wanted to reach out, andit's just absolutely amazing what they were
able to make out of this.Yeah, because when stuff like this,
(47:15):
obviously so horrific and so traumatic,happens, it's very easy to just let
that be your life then and thenlike you just live in a dark hole
of like this happened, you knowwhat I mean? Were these were the
type of people that were just like, no, this isn't how she wanted
(47:36):
to live her life, and like, this isn't what she'd want to be
remembered for. She'd want to beremembered for like a support group. Yeah,
and that's something that makes me reallyhappy. And the fact that when
you google this this case, it'snot like his picture isn't it's all her
and her parents. It's all her, yeah, looking happy, you know,
(47:59):
like she there's a picture of herwhere she's feeding a baby and she
just looks within her element. Andit kills me to see that this fucking
absolute animal of it. Animals wouldn'tdo that to each other. And literally,
I was just going to say,animal is even too kind of a
description from him. There would notdo that too. This man was just
(48:24):
fucking sadistic and cruel. I wasjust gonna say, the only good thing
is that he's most more than likelygoing to die in prison. At this
moment in time, he would bein his seventies. Well, you know
what, I think prison is toogood for him. I genuinely don't really
degree with the death sentence. Thereare I think special cases where I'm like,
(48:49):
you know what, and he's upthere in that. There's a few
things that I have to say aboutthe death sentence and about how you know
one innocent person is not worth allthat kind of a thing, and there
is an argument to be made.But at the same time, when it
comes to people like this that havedone something so vile, I don't want
them to die. I want themto live in pain forever. You know
(49:15):
what the thing is. I don'tactually believe that Margaret ever fully knew what
happened to Kelly Anne, because shesaid she was better off. She said
at one point that she would pickup the phone and go to call the
coroner so that she could hear thedetails, and then she would just going,
(49:37):
no, no, it's not worthit. I'd say as well,
though, like her husband was like, please don't for your sanity and mine
anyway, for mine, yours andthe listener sanity. I would like to
end the episode here, thank youso much for listening to this, and
(50:00):
I hope you're all okay, andalways remember to check in on your family
and friends, because I think thatis just a strong reminder of that.
Yeah, if you can get achance to check us to support after murder
our man's daughter group. If youneed it, we'll put it in the
show notes obviously with our references andeverything like that. Yeah, just look
(50:20):
after yourselves, look after each other, and and look after us by doing
so. You can follow us onTwitter and Instagram and Facebook and everywhere all
at give us More. If youwant to see who you're listening to,
you can always follow our own personalinstagrams, which is at Magpile, Underscore
(50:45):
and at Life's Names. You canalso subscribe to us wherever you listen to
your podcast and let us leave us. Don't leave us, leave us a
review. You don't want to livemy life, It's fine, you can
leave us a review. You canfind us pretty much everywhere that you can
(51:09):
get your podcasts, such as Spotifyand Apple Music Slash Apple Podcasts. And
if you really liked this episode andhaven't done so already, you can go
check out some of our other episodes, such as last week where I talked
about Grand Out Louise Pete and nextweek I'm sorry it's not gonna get much
(51:35):
Jessy here not looking forward to it, but so if you thought this was
hard, and just prepare yourselves fora roller coaster of possibly a three part
three part see Jesus Christ. Okay, and leave us a comment on what
you think I'm possibly covering, Andthank you so much for listening, and
(51:58):
we'll see you guys on the Flipsand follies. It's a want
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com