That's So Fcked Up Presents: Black Dahlia Breakdown ft. Megan Powell- Part I: Episodes 1 & 2

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Betty Barsenger and her daughter were walkingthrough Lymart Park when she noticed something lying
in a vacant lot on South NortonAvenue. At first, she thought it
was a mannequin. That's so fossSally sells seashells Well the Seashore. Let's

(00:38):
fucking break it down. Yellow leather, red leather, yellow leather, red
leather, Sally cells, she sellsby the Seashore. I didn't know you
were a wrapper. Hi, youguys, what's up? It's me what
okay? Welcome back to That SoFucked It Presents, I think, and
I hope you guys know what Thisis finance. But we are in the

(01:00):
seventh season, which is flying by. But if you are new to the
show, That So Fucked It Presentsis a spin off series of That's So
Fucked Up, a podcast about colts, murder and other generally fucked up stuff,
and that So Fucked It Presents.Each season is like a mini series
where we dive into a particular place, topic, or this season for the

(01:23):
first time, a story over thecourse of four episodes. This season,
we are talking about the murder ofElizabeth Short aka the Black Dahlia and the
man that we are ninety five percentShore was behind it and all of the
evil and atrocities that come along withGeorge Hodel. I'm your host, Ashley

(01:45):
Richards, and this is the BlackDahlia Breakdown. This season, we have
a returning guest who y'all probably knowfrom Gruesome Gals. She was my co
host for that whole season and youdid Kitty genevis with me during the New
York Noir, so obviously, pleasewelcome friend of the pod and amazing fellow

(02:07):
podcaster Megan from Give Us Morgue.Miss Meghan Powell, Hi, Hello,
that was an amazing intro. Thankyou. I feel special. Well,
I love you. I'm American andI live in Colorado and Megan is Irish
and currently lives in Malta. AndI think we have like a twelve year
age difference. And I have nevermet in person, but I have spent

(02:30):
more time facetiming with you than anyoneI know, and we've just developed this
amazing online friendship because I reached outto you and I was like, love
your show. I feel like youcould improve your audio though. That's just
like a little peek into who Iam as a person. Yeah, I
remember that day and like we hadsuch a long conversation and after that talking

(02:53):
about just podcasting in general, andthen it just moved on and I know,
we just became like best friends.It's been amazing. I feel like
I said it in like a nonoffensive way, though, yeah if I
said it like A just said,it would have been brewed. Yeah.
You were like, I think you'rea little like far away from your microphone
and I was like, girl,I'm recording in a fucking shed with one

(03:14):
mic between two hosts. Thank youso a thirty dollars Amazon mic. I
was like, okay, well Ihave a couple suggestions, like maybe I
could throw out, but you wereso nice about it too. That's the
thing. I was like, oh, thank you, because nobody else ever
wants to fucking say anything. No, because some people are like, okay,
thanks for the constructive feedback that Ididn't ask for. Go fuck yourself

(03:36):
now. And I get that too, but that was not the case.
Here, beautiful friendship bloomed and tellthem what your podcast is, please yeah
give us mork I co hosted withmy friend Neive. We started as a
COVID project and we mostly talked abouttrue crime and stuff. We've kind of
delved a little bit into the paranormal. It's a fun show. I don't
want to call it fun because obviouslyit's true crime, but it's a good

(03:59):
time over there. It's a similarvibe to ye, so it's like true
crime comedy. I don't love thename true crime comedy because I do think
it has a negative connotation. Thosewords probably shouldn't go together in the same
sentence. But I would love torename the genre to true crime light because
light means that it's just more deliveredin a less serious manner, and it

(04:21):
just feels more appropriate. But Iknow if I started saying that, people
wouldn't know what the fuck I wastalking about. Yeah, so I continue
to call it true crime comedy,even though I would prefer not to.
But it is what it is.You know. We take our crime and
our fucked up ship with a dashof humor, as I'm sure I hope
that y'all do, because you arehere because it is a dark world.

(04:43):
And yeah, if I don't laugh, I don't know what I would do.
Yeah, honestly, are you readyto hear about the murder of the
Black Dahlia, which is where wewill be starting our adventure. So ready,
I've never been more ready for anythingthing in my entire life. It's
amazing. Okay, that's the energythat I want, so fuck yeah.

(05:04):
Can I just say this is seasonseven and seven is my lucky number,
as is like many other people.It's lucky number. Also, it's a
biblical number, is it? Idon't remember why, like an angel one.
No, it's like in the Bibleis a number because I'm learning about
the Bible right now. Hello,if you haven't checked out Ash and Michelle,
I'll do the Bible. We havethe first episode and a sneak peek

(05:26):
of the second episode. Seriously,go check those out. It's my new
favorite thing. I didn't know thatlearning about the Bible would be so fun.
But we go over like the fuckedup stuff and whoa, whoa,
Yeah, it's crazy. The wholeCatholic thing is just fucking wild. I
say that as an Irish person,where it's just nuns and priests and everything
everywhere all of the time. Shitis crazy. No, when you told

(05:48):
me that Ireland was still pretty likemanaged by the Catholic Church, I was
like, get the fuck out ofhere. Yeah, well, it's all
the old people, isn't it.So they're all still like super religious and
stuff. So it's not so muchthe church themselves but the old people.
And we still you know, everysingle school pretty much does communion confirmation.

(06:10):
What you need to have your baptismcertificate to get into school from what I
remember public school, Yeah, whenI was young. It's probably changed because
we have so many different nationalities inerinand now, but yeah, you would
have to provide your baptism search.They were like, look, we're not
trying to have any kids here thatmight go to Hell. That's not the
vibe. Wow, that's a wholeother thing though, Right, that's for

(06:34):
another day. Yeah, let's dothis. So let's talk about the murder
of Elizabeth Short. And I reallywant to call her by her name because
I feel like she's been turned intoa thing and not a person. The
black Dahlia. Yeah, you wouldn'tsay like the Ashley Richards, or would
you? That actually sounds kind ofcool. What's up? It's the Ashley

(06:58):
Richards. Yeah. When I starttalking about you to my friends, come
to the Ashley Richards. Yeah,the one. But Adolia is a flower.
Her name was Elizabeth Short, let'srecognize that, you know. Okay.
So, on the early morning ofJanuary fifteenth, nineteen forty seven,
in Los Angeles, California, awoman named Betty Barsinger and her daughter were

(07:19):
walking through Lymurt Park when she noticedsomething lying in a vacant lot on South
Norton Avenue. At first, shethought it was a mannequin oh m.
But once she got closer, shecould see a naked woman's body dissected in
two halves and posed very vulgarly,if that's a word. So Betty called

(07:43):
the police immediately, as an audienceand the media began to crowd around the
crime scene, so police came ontothe scene. The woman had black hair
and green eyes. Her body hadvisible mutilation to the face, breasts,
genitals, and legs. PS.Trigger warning. If that sentence bothered you,

(08:05):
maybe don't listen to this episode becauseas usual, it's only gonna get
worse. Yeah, maybe to stophere. If that was like, WHOA,
I'm not trying to get into thattoday. Self care first, y'all.
So no blood appeared at the scene. No blood, the body had
been fully drained of it. Policealso found three paper bags, first thought

(08:26):
to be bags of cement, butlater they found that the bags actually were
full of manure. Her body wasalso found just a few feet away from
the sidewalk, telling the police thatthe killer did definitely want the body to
be discovered. Her hands had beenposed above her head and her lower body
had been positioned a few feet awayto her left, with her legs spread

(08:48):
wide open. Her intestines were foundunderneath the lower half of her body in
like a neat pile. And youknow, one of the most known facts
is that her face had a hugecut from ear to ear, giving the
appearance of a joker type smile.Yeah, there's a name for that.

(09:09):
I think is the Chelsea smile.Oh my god, shut up. Really,
do you know why it's called that. I have no idea. I
think I just know this from likeemo music back in the day. But
yeah, I think it's called theChelsea smile. It's like, you know
what, I have internet right here, so now I'm curious. Okay,
fun facts. Thank you for bringingthis in, Megan. The Chelsea smile

(09:31):
is also known as a Glasgow smileor Glasgow smiley, Houghton, a buck
fifty, or the Cheshire grin.It's the bucking joke or smile, and
it's said to have originated in Glasgow, Scotland in the twenties or thirties.
Damn, okay, fuck wow,interesting what are you doing in Scotland that

(09:54):
that has originated there? I don'tknow. There's an actor, Tommy Flanagan
who has scars from that because hewas attacked outside of a bar in Glasgow.
Fuck. If anybody knows why,please let us know, because now,
yeah, I'm very curious, andI bet you guys are too.
All right, so I think that'sactually good time to take a quick commercial

(10:16):
break. Let's all take a breathand fucking you know, taken what we
just learned, and we will beback in a minute. Hi, this
is give us more. Hi Megan, and this is our super casual promo.

(10:43):
We are a true crime podcast hereto make you laugh your tits off.
Fuck, she's a fairy. It'snot kind right And next thing you
do see a glowing dick. Sheswitched the pails in the ball. I
would so bully him. Why areyou kidding on your hit map? This

(11:07):
is gonna kill my husband for thelife of turance money by you're going to
break out a death row inmate fora canoe. His clothmates would call him
turd boy. If that interests you, make sure to check us out wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Idon't. It's fine, super casual,

(11:28):
nailed it. Okay, we're backfrom break. I hope everybody took a
deep breath. If you are stillhere in graphic details of sexual assault,
torture and mutilation are bothersome to you, maybe skip forward a few minutes because
now we're going to talk about theautopsy. So during the autopsy, the

(11:52):
coroner determined that she had been killedabout ten hours prior to her being found.
Her official cause of death was hemorrhageand shock due to concussion of the
brain lacerations of the face. Whatis I don't even honestly fully comprehend that
sentence, but it sounds fucking intense. According to The Black Dahlia Avenger by

(12:16):
Steve Hodel, who is George Hodel'sson, which we will don't worry get
into all of this, but accordingto Steve Hodel's book, a list of
known torture that had occurred prior toher body being found included her hands and
her feet being bound with rope,or wire ligature's strangulation to her neck because

(12:39):
of literature marking's blunt force trauma tothe face and head, Five distinct incisions
to her upper lip, surgically roundedscalpel lacerations to both sides of the mouth,
tic tac toe, scalpel cuttings tothe right thigh, scalpel laceration,

(13:00):
and some cutting away of pubic hairand insertion of hair into the anus.
The lacerations also seemed to be ina crisscross pattern. Okay, wolf,
this goes on, you guys.So scar or cigarette burns to her back.
So there was an incision from herbelly button to her pubic bone in

(13:22):
imitation of a hysterectomy about four anda half inches long. Scalpel incision and
removal of large section of the leftthigh and insertion of it into the vagina.
Yeah, surgical removal of her rightbreast, sexual antal rape with an

(13:43):
unknown object. Surgical bisection of herbody between the second and third lumbar vertebrae,
washing and scrubbing down of the bodyparts using a coconut fiber brush which
sounds intense, and her smock wasfilled with a greenish brown granular material,

(14:03):
which was mostly feces and other particles, so they believed that before she died
she had been force fed peas.A post mortem suggested that Elizabeth had been
tortured before she was killed. Heavystuff, man it my goodness. Yeah.

(14:28):
Yeah. It was also believed thatthe killer must have had some medical
background due to the meticulous surgical techniquesused to bisect the body. With help
from the FBI, her identity wasquickly found after fifty six minutes because her
fingerprints had been in the police ofdatabase along with a mug shot for being
arrested for underage drinking in nineteen fortythree. Okay, all right, so

(14:54):
that list is looking insane. Thebisection for me is obvious, crazy like
for somebody to do what they'd doneto her, and for the bisection,
they really needed to know what thefolk they were doing because from what I
remember, the way they put herwas the only way that you can cut
across the body and not sever anybone or something like that. Yeah,

(15:15):
So they immediately started looking into anybodywith medical backgrounds, including medical students or
whatever, because they were like,this is not the work of some fucking
hacker slasher, you know, likethis took skill and precision. Okay,
So let's talk a little bit aboutwho Elizabeth Short was as a person.
So she was born in Boston,Massachusetts, on July twenty ninth, nineteen

(15:39):
twenty four, and was the thirddaughter out of five born to Cleo and
Phoebe May Short. Cleo was Popsand he bailed in nineteen thirty when Elizabeth
was just six years old and fled, leaving the family to California, and
Phoebe May was now solely response piblefor her five daughters and had to sell

(16:02):
her house and move into an apartment. Thanks Dad, that was really great
of you. Piece of fucking shit. Dude, are you kidding me?
Who does that? He did?This guy? That's who this fucking dude?
Did? He come crawling out ofthe woodwork. Then, after Elizabeth
was found, I wonder, oh, my daughter, you know, I

(16:23):
actually don't know, but probably we'lltalk a little bit more about him.
He does come back into the picturefor a smidge. So from a young
age, Elizabeth endured severe asthma attacksand bronchitis, and she even had to
have lung surgery when she was fifteen. Jesus, Yeah, that's scary shit
too, having this disease where you'relike, oh, all of a sudden,

(16:45):
I can't breathe and obtain oxygen,which is kind of what I needed
to keep living. Yeah, hello, panic attack, I can't breathe asthma
scares this shit out of me.Like it's so common too. I don't
know what happens if you don't haveyearn hailer. It's yeah, yeah,
intense stuff. In nineteen forty two, when Elizabeth was about eighteen, she

(17:07):
got into contact with her dad inCalifornia and decided that she wanted to move
out there with him, So shedropped out of high school and had been
told by her doctors that it wouldbe best for her respiratory problems if she
could spend winters in a warmer climate. Yeah, Massachusetts winters versus California winters,
pretty big difference, sure, butweirdly they did argue a lot.

(17:32):
I think I would probably be prettypissed, So I would be maybe a
little miffed at my dad if he'ddone that. Yeah, sure, hey,
thanks for bailing when I was six. I'm really trying to get over
it, but for some reason,just got that chip in my shoulder about
it, and I don't know why, I just h Yeah. This was
short lived, and she moved outin nineteen forty three. Her dad said

(17:53):
that this was the last time thathe ever heard from her or saw her
again. She then started living atCamp Cook on the military base, working
at the post exchange for about ninemonths, and over the next few years
she kind of bounced around and movedto Florida and was living there for a
while. So some people who knewher from that time and place described her

(18:18):
as being polite and shy. Shedidn't drink or smoke and always tried to
look her best and fabulous. Fabulousis not something I would ever used to
describe myself. Na same. Soher love for music led her to frequenting
nightclubs and there because well, shewas a very pretty gal. If you've

(18:41):
seen pictures, she was often surroundedby men. Oh me too, every
single day. I can't go toa bar without swatting people off. No,
just for the longest time, Iwas like, am I hideous?
Or am I giving off a vibe? Because no one ever looks at me
or hits on me? For decades, well, let's say my whole twenties.
But I was probably giving off asuper needy, insecure vibe because I

(19:06):
was like hot and I didn't knowit, and I was like, please
love me, you guys, loveyourself. Okay, that's the first step
PSA, yeah, for sure.But also I stopped getting hit on this
second. I turned like nineteen,From like sixteen to nineteen, genuinely was
getting hit on a lot when Iwent out. And no, it's like
I got hit on by delivery drivershere when they see me in my sweats

(19:29):
text me afterwards like, hey,you want to make a friend. That's
really fucking inappropriate. What the fuckyou should report that? Yeah? I
didn't because I didn't really know whatto do. I was like, I'm
just not going to respond to thisat all. You know what, though,
I will say that I think alot of dudes like a woman who
doesn't wear a lot of makeup andisn't super fussy about hair and makeup and

(19:49):
heels and stuff. I mean,obviously there are a lot of dudes served
super into that, but I thinka lot of men prefer kind of a
more natural look. Also, myboyfriend would never her fucking wait for me.
He gives me like ten minutes toget ready. I'm like, can
I put on earrings in masquera foryou? He's like, let's go.
I'm like, ah, that justmeans he thinks you are so beautiful natural

(20:12):
anyway, Yes, right, you'rehut we know this. Thanks boo.
You two. Let's take another quickbreak and when we get back we'll talk
more about her life. All right, and we are back. In nineteen
forty four, Elizabeth meets a mannamed Major Matthew M. Gordon Junior at

(20:37):
a New Year's Eve party, andhe did end up proposing to her,
which she accepted, but really tragically, when he was deployed, he died
in an airplane crash in nineteen fortyfive. Fuck oh man, It's like
Pops bailed and then the asthma andthen your fiance fucking dies. Her life
is already just fucking tragic. Yeah, And I really wanted to highlight that

(21:02):
because, like I said, shegets labeled as the black Dahlia instead of
Elizabeth Short, a human who hada life which was pretty fucking rough up
until her insanely terrible murder. Sheended up visiting an old boyfriend, Lieutenant
Gordon Fickling in Long Beach, California, but moved to the Hollywood region in
nineteen forty six. She's gonna bea star, a big star. She

(21:27):
was going for the old dream thatunfortunately a lot of people have. And
you know what, you guys,whatever, don't let anybody stop you,
Okay, you go for your fuckingdreams, whatever they are. Yeah,
I just think a lot of peopleend up becoming alcoholics or coke addicts and
working at fucking Lisa Vanderpump's restaurant fortwelve years. Fan of Pump Rolls anybody?

(21:48):
Hello? Love that show? Doyou know what I'm talking about?
I've never heard of it? Ohmy god. Yeah, it's bad reality
TV, but it's really good.So Elizabeth lived in different houses, hotels,
and apartments and was known to notstay in one place very long.
Really, no longer than a fewweeks, okay. She worked as a

(22:10):
waitress, and the areas that shelived in were known for sex work,
so it was thought that she mayhave resorted to sex work to help get
by. However, that's never beenproven, so speculation. Do what you
gotta do to survive, too,though, Yeah, I mean, hopefully
not on the fucking streets, becausethat's so dangerous. I mean, they

(22:30):
really need to legalize sex work worldwideand make it a safe thing, because
hello, it's the oldest fucking professionin the world. Can we just not
admit that everybody? And let's behonest, it's mostly dudes. Dudes want
to get fucked and you know,women are either. I don't want to
put tex work down as a profession. I know a lot of people do
it willingly and they fucking dig itand find it empowering. But some people

(22:52):
don't really have that opportunity. Butit would at least be so much safer
if it was in a controlled environment. So that's my soapbox retweet. Also,
again, like I said, shebounced around a lot in the months
prior to her death. She wasliving with a woman named Dorothy in San
Diego from December nineteen forty six toJanuary nineteen forty seven, So again,

(23:15):
that only sounds about a month,you know. Elizabeth told Dorothy that a
man named Red would be picking herup at the house on January eighth,
which was the last time she eversaw Elizabeth. The last time she was
seen by a woman that she wasliving with was pretty much exactly a week
before her body was found, andElizabeth's mother also later confirmed that this was

(23:38):
Elizabeth's last known address. So shesays that she's getting picked up by a
man named Red who she was datingat the time, and you know it's
usually the husband or the boyfriend orwhatever. Yeah, that's where they looked
first. Also, he was likelost to see her. So can we
just do like a PSA. Ifyou're going to fucking meet somebody, give

(23:59):
somebody else their full, actual realname, please, not just their nickname.
If something happens, we need toknow who you're meeting. Oh my
god, yeah, drop a pen. Seriously. We just did an episode
on dating more orsodes and some ofthem were cautionary, a lot of them
were funny, but even the funnyones were like that guy sounds like a
fucking weirdo. And I hope somebodyknew that you were at that location with

(24:22):
this man. You know, bea careful attire, y'all. PSA two
Police started investigating Robert read Manly,who had been dating her at the time
and, like I said, wasthe last person to see her alive.
He said that he picked her upon January eighth in San Diego, and
dropped her off in front of theBiltmore Hotel in Los Angeles on January ninth.

(24:44):
He told police that he walked herto the hotel lobby and then drove
back to his home in San Diego. So Elizabeth had told him that she
was going to Berkeley to stay withher sister and was meeting her sister at
the Biltmore Hotel. Okay, allright, makes sense. Therefore, she
was actually last seen in Los Angeleson January ninth, until her body was

(25:04):
discovered on the fifteenth. Robert Manly, of course, was investigated, but
was quickly ruled out because he hada solid alibi at the time of the
crime and passed a live detector test, which PS has become to be known
as pretty much junk science. Ithink, yeah, if you fail like
three or four live detector tests,oh what the fuck? That's questionable.

(25:25):
No, but the thing is asociopath or a psychopath who doesn't feel emotions
can pass that shit. Where likeme, if they're like, did you
steal that tape and I didn't,I'd be like I'm going to prison.
Oh my god, I'd be likesweating, you know, Yeah, I
don't know, Like I said,he had a solid alibi, so that's
always super helpful. Okay, thisshit just pisses me off so bad.

(25:47):
Why the fuck you're just completely fuckingruining the chances of this murderer being found,
because immediately after her body was found, the LAPD started getting tons of
hoax call and false confessions, andlike, why do people do this?
You're just wasting their time. Itruly don't get it. Are they looking

(26:08):
for notoriety? Do they just thinkit's fucking funny to call shit in?
What are you doing? You fuckingloser? Yeah? No, I don't
get it at all either. Soobviously they're getting all these fucking false confessions
and shit. And months after themurder, a man claiming to be the
killer began to send some of herbelongings in the mail to prove that he

(26:30):
was indeed the killer. Oh,an envelope came containing her birth certificate,
business cards, photographs, and anaddress book. Some of the pages from
her address book had been ripped out. Okay, so likely that person's address
was on it. Yeah, ifthis really was from the killer, I
don't know how he had all thatstuff. I don't think the actual killer

(26:52):
was fucking with the police. SoI think this guy was also a false
confession. I just don't know howhe had all that shit. Well,
she moved her end a lot,so maybe she just left a bunch of
shit in one apartment one day andthe next guy that moved in was like,
you know what. True. Also, I think maybe that shit was
just easier to forge in the fuckingforties, you know. Yeah, yeah,

(27:15):
but her fucking births are Even ifhe was the killer, where did
he get her births heart from?Because it's not like you're just carrying that
shit around, but I feel likeyou could have maybe forged it. Maybe
they were like a lot more basicback in the day, is what I'm
saying. You know, Elizabeth Shortwas born on this day at this hospital,
like just fucking handwritten. Probably Fuck, I don't know. Hold on
now, I'm going to look upnineteen forties birth certificates the magic of the

(27:37):
internet, just right here at yourfucking fingertips. Yeah, I don't know,
dude, that looks like you couldfucking forge that shit pretty easy.
All right, So we got somefakers. Well, I mean, either
one of our options could be true, honestly, either she left it or
somebody forged it. But when weget back from this quick commercial break,
we will start talking about some ofthe potential suspects. We are back back

(28:07):
streets back all right? Got toointo that? No, I loved it.
I loved the enthusiasm. Bring it, Bring it. A lot of
people have read this book thinking thatit's true because that's how the author presents
it, but not many people knowthat it's actually based off of her repressed
memories. Which I'm not saying thosedon't exist. I think they absolutely do.

(28:32):
I also don't think necessarily like,hey, I definitely know my dad
was this awful killer because I rememberedit in a Okay, here's my thing.
Repressed memories definitely exist. But thereare good therapists and there are bad
therapists. And I think that thereare bad therapists who will kind of implant
things. Yes, exactly. SoI think that's where people are like,

(28:56):
oh, no, repressed memories.That's good or bad? I really think
though it depends on the legitimacy ofthe therapist and what they're doing. Also
a little bit salacious of a namethe book called Daddy was the Black Dahlia
Killer by Janice Noelton claims that herfather, George Knowlton, was the killer.
However, Mark Nielsen says that thebook solely quote relies on Knowlton's repressed

(29:22):
memories and daddy was the Black Dahliakiller. Isn't that a pretty salacious title.
Yeah, that's like you're going fornumber one bestseller. Yeah, it
doesn't have a nice name. Thename is gross. It's gross. I
want a lifetime movie man out ofthis. Actually, what was this book
written? I'm looking up so manythings right now. It's funny this book
was published in ninety five, soforty years later or whatever. Yeah,

(29:48):
she was definitely going for a lifetimemovie because I'm sure lifetime was happening back
then. Sniffing around, Yeah,you know, not a fan. Also,
Larry Harnish, who worked for theLa Times, claims that a surgeon
named Walter Bailey killed Elizabeth. Hesaid that Walter Bailey lived by the crime
scene and his daughter knew Elizabeth's sister. And this is kind of relevant because

(30:15):
a book by William T. Raspusenbelieves that quote the Black Dahlia murder,
the Cleveland Torso murders, and otherkillings in Los Angeles and Chicago, were
committed by a linked group of people, including Jack Anderson Wilson. That is
a quote from Mark Nelson, authorof The Exquisite Corpse. It's an amazing

(30:36):
book. It has some pretty graphicpictures, but it's like coffee table glossy
kind of book, you know.Oh, okay for us weirdos you know
out there. Yeah, but yeah, it's great. Jack Anderson Wilson,
an alcoholic burglar, said that heknew specific details about the murder, and
they think also that the murder mayhave been linked to the group of people

(31:00):
which included the Cleveland Torso murderer,because he was characterized by dismembering his victims
and he always beheaded and occasionally severedthe victim's torso in half. He had
kind of a similar mo So there'sbeen some theories that the Cleveland Torso murderer

(31:22):
and the fucking Black Dollariar murderer andmaybe there's this big organized murderer group.
But I don't know. I hatethat. Back in those days, it's
not like you had the Internet whereyou could find other people that were also
interested in the same weird shit thatyou are. So if that is true,
and if it was a group.How are you finding each other?
You know, I don't know.You're putting out classified opening add like hey

(31:45):
in the newspaper. All slightly irrelevantin my mind anyways, because like I
said, I'm ninety percent ninety eight, I'm like pretty sure that I know
who the killer was and it's noneof these people. Also, if you've
heard this story, you're thinking,wait, what about the lipstick killer.
We are going to go into himin later episodes. Just know that in

(32:06):
this episode we're mostly focusing on whoElizabeth Short was and her murder. So
a tip was later given to thepolice during their investigation from people who had
recognized Elizabeth in a photo as beinga girlfriend of George Hodell, a very
popular doctor in Hollywood. Friends toldpolice that they didn't date for long,

(32:30):
but that they do remember seeing Elizabethat George's home, where he threw a
lot of questionable parties, and byquestionable, I mean disgusting, pedophile,
incest, bullshit, hate it withother adults who didn't find that problematic Hollywood,

(32:51):
Hollywood. Just as police began tolook into Hodel, they discovered that
he was also accused of sexually abusinghis daughter Tamar, which led to her
becoming pregnant. He had also triedto perform an abortion on her unsuccessfully,
and when she gave birth to herdaughter, the daughter was immediately given up

(33:14):
for adoption. Like hide that secret. Obviously, George was taken to trial
for sexually assaulting his daughter and waslater acquitted. More on this in episode
three, as we dive deeper intowho George Hoddell was and the fact that
he is a spawn of Satan.Yeah, yeah, sounds right. Yeah,

(33:35):
we'll be going into that. Policecontinue to investigate George and end up
bugging his home on Franklin Avenue,and on February eighteenth, nineteen fifty,
they heard George say, quote,suppose that I did kill the black Dahlia.
They couldn't prove it. Now theycan't talk to my secretary anymore because
she's dead. That's not sketch atall, right, I there's just so

(34:01):
much a better that that. Ifucking hate. Suppose I did do it.
I he was like wiggling his glassesand like smoking a cigar at the
same time. I would kill theblack Dollias. I couldn't prove a nausie.
The secretary is dead his secretary haddied, but it was determined to

(34:24):
be a suicide. And more onthat in the next episode. Also,
when they were bugging his home onenight, they heard the scream of a
woman and then a loud thud.Yes, they were literally outside of his
house and didn't do anything. Idon't get it. They didn't go in.

(34:45):
They were just like, Okay,more evidence, I guess. I
don't. I don't know, becauseeven if they did go in and they
found him like in the middle ofmurdering somebody or beating somebody up, that's
clearly enough to hold him for awhile to then investigate more on Elizabeth.
Also, one of these days we'regoing to do a deep dive into the

(35:06):
Chicken Coop murders and the Changeling case. God, it's the movie with Angeliana
Jolie and I can't think of thename right now. But when her son
was fucking kidnapped and they brought thisother boy back and they're like, this
is your son, She's like,no, it's not and they're like,
no, bitch, this is yourson. You go ahead and take him.

(35:28):
And this is like a real story, This exact thing happened. Did
I not hear you talk about thisbefore. I might have mentioned it.
We've talked about it because I said, I want to do this possibly with
you as a full season, whichI am going to do as a full
season at some point. Because theLAPD during the twenties and thirties and probably
up until today, but especially thenwas so fucking corrupt, just in cahoots

(35:52):
with a job and everything. Sooh yeah, no good. And in
April nineteen fifty, three years afterthe murder and one year after George's acquittal,
police did claim to have enough evidenceto make an arrest, but he
had already left the country to livein the Philippines, which is also not
sketch at all. Right, Yeah, I feel like, mmmmm, why

(36:14):
the Philippines. So we're gonna goahead and wrap this episode up. Steve
Hodell was George Hodel's son, aretired police officer of the LAPD and now
a private detective who has written threebooks, The Black Dahlia Avenger and two
additional books, plus he has ablog that he's very active on and he

(36:36):
strongly believes that his father, GeorgeHodel, was the Black Dahia Killer,
and he actually, as a retiredLAPD officer and a private investigator. He
decided, I don't like the factthat people are fucking accusing my father of
being the Black Dahlia killer, soI'm going to start investigating this to prove
that it's untrue. But as hestarted to investigate the he was like,

(37:00):
fuck, yeah, no, Ithink it was him. Yeah, he
got more than he bargained for.Definitely, he sought out to set set
out, sought out whatever it's notit I think both could work right to
prove his father's innocence, and insteadfound out that no, he probably he

(37:21):
probably did that ship and then wrotethree books about it. Yeah, and
now he really wants the world toknow that, like, no, you
guys, it was my dad,which is cool because it was his dad,
and you know, it's still like, oh, oh who killed the
Black Dolia. It's a cold case. Now it's not. Okay, it's
not we know, And you're like, well, how do you know?

(37:43):
Because I do, all right,because like, just trust me, because
next week we will be going morethoroughly into Steve Hodel's investigation of his father
and George Hodel's horrific fucking past andwhat a god dam just fucking fucking demon
tit fuck demon man. He wasI hate him, yep, I hate

(38:07):
him so much. Besides likely beingElizabeth Schwartz murderer, he was a really
really really bad person in so manyother ways. Ah, he fucking sulked.
He was so terrible. Like hesaid, if he is not the
murderer, if he was not themurderer at all, he's a fucking terrible
person. Yeah, just you.Episode two George Hodell. This season is

(38:32):
very, very inspired by the podcastRude of Evil. I don't know if
I said, but I listened toit like four fucking times. I've never
listened to Serialized or any other podcastthat many times. It was just so
from the beginning, so vulnerable,so beautifully done by the great granddaughters of

(38:53):
George Hodell, who we're going totalk about today. And wow, generational
trauma is super real. Oh yeah, big time yea. So we are
going to get into that, andnow you're excited. Here we go,
trigger warning y'all. Today we've gotsexual abuse, incest. I think that

(39:14):
that's what we got, but hey, both of those are a bummer,
so just know that going into it. So last week, I hope you
listened. If you didn't, pleasego back and listen, because this podcast
is meant to be listened to ina particular order. Shout out to my
research partner, Sally, who wehave worked very meticulously on how we want
to order and tell this story.Please do go back and listen to the

(39:36):
first episode if you haven't. Butif you haven't, we talked about the
murder of Elizabeth Short, the BlackDahlia, talked about who she was as
a person, some of the suspects, and then moved on to George Hodel,
who we're going to be talking abouttoday, whom we definitely think did
it. I mean, are youwith me? I keep saying we,

(39:57):
but yeah, no, I'm withyou. On you listen to Route of
Evil to kind of be able toknow a little about what's going on and
chime in and because it is abit of a complex story. Last episode
we ended on George Hodel's son,Steve Hodel, who was a retired LAPD
officer who started to investigate his father, George Hodel. So here we go.

(40:22):
Steve Hodel was working as a privateinvestigator when he began to look into
his father, George Hodel, asa suspect in the Black Dahlia murder.
He had originally set out to provehis father's innocence, but continued only to
uncover more damning evidence against George.Can you fucking imagine You're like, no,
my dad is so innocent, andthen you're like, oh, never

(40:43):
mind, and then you just keepfinding out more and more and you're like,
oh, he's so wow. Thisjust keeps getting worse. Yep,
he sets out to prove his dad'sinnocence and then it's like, holy fuck.
Steve Hodel was born to Dorothy alsoknown as Durero which I will explain
the nickname later and George Hodell onNovember sixth, nineteen forty one, in

(41:05):
La Or Los Angeles, California.He was the second oldest son and grew
up with his two brothers. Theygrew up in the famed Soden House,
built by Lloyd Wright. It's thiscrazy looking house. It was built to
resemble a Mayan temple. It's sincebeen used for movie and TV sets because
it's so crazy looking, and itis now referred to as the Franklin House.

(41:30):
And that's how we'll refer to itin the rest of the story.
Yeah, that is crazy looking.It does look like a temple or something
like that imagined living in that.Yeah. When George sold the house and
left Los Angeles in nineteen fifty afterthe trial where he was accused of and
acquitted four sexually abusing his daughter Tamar, Steve continued to live with his mother

(41:54):
and brothers, but in various placesbecause she could not continue to live in
the fucking mansion after George departed,because she struggled to make ends meet and
take care of the kids. That'salways fun. Nice guy. So when
Steve got older, he went intothe Navy and then joined the LAPD in

(42:15):
nineteen sixty three. He worked forthe LAPD for twenty four years, seventeen
of those years being in Hollywood Homicide. Is that the actual name for the
unit? He was in, Hollywoodhomicide? Because that just sounds like a
TV show or something. It wasdefinitely a TV show. I don't know

(42:35):
who's actually the name of the department. I'm from Hollywood Homicide. Yoo.
Yeah, I need to take theglasses off for sure, and I don't
know if well. I mean,I'm sure up until today it's corrupt,
But LAPD, especially in like thetwenties and thirties and forties when it was
branded by the fucking mob. Wasso fucking corrupt, it was wild.

(43:00):
But Steve worked on three hundred murderinvestigations with an eighty percent salve rate,
which is okay, Steve, reallyfucking impressive. Yeah, and he retired
in nineteen eighty six, just oneyear before my birth, In case anyone
was wondering. During his time asa detective, he got married and had

(43:20):
two sons, and after his retirementin eighty six, they moved to Bellingham,
Washington. He would go on toget his private investigator's license in Washington
and California, where he worked onsome criminal defense cases, and when he
divorced his wife, he moved backto LA to continue working as a private
investigator. That is so sick.I would love to be a private investigator,

(43:44):
only because I'm such a nosy bitch. I want to know what's going
on in your life. What didyou have a breakfast? Show me?
I want to see a picture.You could be a private investigator. There's
a school and ship. Stop it. Yeah, you don't have to have
a background in being a police officer, did you know? Just star reminds
me, and you probably do knowthis. Did you know that to be
a real clown you have to goto clown school? You have to be

(44:07):
like accredited. I don't know ifyou get a credited I was watching Stevo's
videos on YouTube and he went tofucking clown school. I know. Actually,
I'm going to try to get Stevoon the show one day. Wish
me luck. Oh that'd be socool. Yeah, you guys, if
you want to be a PI,look into it. It's within your reach.
But you do have to get licensedapparently to be a clown too.

(44:29):
And we will talk more about Steve'sinvestigating when we get back from this quick
commercial break. Okay, we areback. I don't know. Did I
make it so clear last episode thatthis is one of the stories that I've

(44:50):
been most obsessed with of all times. I mean, I know that,
but it could be good for youto just put that nail in again.
So Steve said that A seventeenth,nineteen ninety seven is the day that changed
his entire life for ever. That'sonly six days before I was born.
Oh my god, get out ofhere. We are so connected to this

(45:12):
story. It's crazy. Nobody dofeel a little bit connected because a lot
of the family later ends up inHawaii, and I was born in Hawaii,
and I like to make things aboutme apparently, you know. No,
you're so connected. I just feellike this is very much about me
as well. No, I'm justa kidding, a kidding sarcasm, you
guys. Hashtag? What is it? Slash ass? Is that what the

(45:36):
kids are doing? Now? Yeah? I can't keep up. I can't
either. But he received a phonecall at one am from his stepmother,
June, George's fifth wife. Ijust sounded like a high school his fifth
wife, baus just dropped yep.But George's fifth wife, June, called
him at one am telling him thathis father, who he had always high

(46:00):
respected, had passed away. Afterhe went to George's funeral, he got
a call from Tamar Hodel, thedaughter who was previously sexually abused and then
gaslet in court, who is nowliving in Hawaii. See see here,
it is the connection, I seeit. See Okay? So Tamar and

(46:21):
Steve, who were half siblings andvery rarely spoke, were talking about their
dad and she says, did youknow that he was a suspect in the
Black Dahlia murder, and he's like, what the fuck are you talking about?
And like I said, he hadworked in the LAPD for twenty four

(46:42):
years and had never heard an inklingabout. Hey, did you know that
maybe your dad fucking did one ofthe most famous murders of all times?
Is this something that was mentioned inRoot of Evil that I missed? But
how is this family lure not passedon? How is this not common knowledge
between all the family members at thatpoint? Oh? Yeah, Dad was
just you know, I think Georgiawas just insanely good at manipulating everyone around

(47:08):
him. Oh yeah, for sure. I'm going to mention this later.
But he actually had an IQ thatwas one point above Einstein's. Oh like,
you don't stand a chance against thisguy, you know, and he
was a psychopath. He put thosetogether. He was literally an evil genius.

(47:30):
Oh am, I imagining him likedoing that, say the fucking oh
no when I fucking quote him later, That's exactly how he is in my
mind too. He's like the ogfucking doctor evil though it's wild, Okay,
He's like, how the fuck doyou know this? And she says
that when the incest trial was goingon, as the cops were taking her

(47:51):
to court, they super inappropriately toldher that her dad was a suspect in
the Black Dolia murder. Just casuallydropped that, you're just on your way
to court. Oh yeah, yourdad was suspecting a murder. You're on
your way to court to try toprove that your dad raped and pregnated you.
And then they're like, ps,he probably murdered this check. I
don't know. It's just a hunchthat we have good luck in their kid,

(48:15):
you know, yeah, make sureyou tell everybody everything in there.
Hey, keep your chin up.Kids. Always having admired George, Steve
was set on proving his innocence,so he started investigating old case files because
he was like, tomorrow, you'rea fucking lying bitch, and I'm going
to prove it. Okay, youknow, I don't. I'm not going

(48:37):
to go that far. But hewas just like, you are lying,
and I'm here to defend our dad'shonor. So one of his first findings
was a note that the killer hadsent to the police, and while he
was reading the letter, he's like, that looks weirdly an awful lot like
my dad's handwriting. Also, thisletter that had been kind of taunting the

(49:00):
police and referencing back to the lastepisode where somebody had mailed in her belongings
like her passport and ship to provethat they were the killer. These letters
and that package had both been mailedfrom just within a few blocks of one
of George's clinics. I mean,if that's him, it's not very evo

(49:22):
genius. Well, I mean,I guess you can't get everything right.
You're not how perfect I get it? He tried his best. Okay,
my good god. He also learnsthat the police thought that the killer must
have been a skilled surgeon. Thebisection of the body was done so meticulously
that the procedure was known as aHemi corpectomy, and this is when the

(49:45):
body is cut between the second andthird Lombard discs, and it's the only
location where the body can be splitin two without having to cut through bone,
and only someone with medical knowledge wouldknow that. He also learns that
the hysterectomy incision on her body wasdone with meticulous and medical knowledge because it

(50:07):
was done through the lower vertical midlineof the body, and at this time,
this is how doctors performed hysterectomies.Okay, it's very obvious that this
was all done by a skilled surgeon. Guess who was a skilled surgeon,
George. We'll get into that.He also sees manure and cement bags in

(50:27):
the crime scene photos and reads howElizabeth had been forced to ingest feces,
and he later finds receipts for renovationwork showing that George had purchased bags of
manure and cement for this supposed renovationwork. What renovation work are you doing
that you need manure for? Well, I was thinking probably the outside.

(50:50):
Oh yeah, people use that asfertilizer. I forgot about that. Yeah,
so probably to make the outside lookgood. But the brand of manure
used and bought was only available innineteen forty seven, the year of Elizabeth's
murder, and was the same brandof manure bags found at the crime scene.
Okay, coincidence maybe, but Ithink not. It's a lot of

(51:13):
coincidences, right. He also thenfinds a photo of a woman in his
father's old photo albums who he thoughtresembled Elizabeth. This would actually later be
disproved in his book Black Dahlia Avengertwo, confirming that this woman was actually
an acquaintance of George's. He alsospeaks with this woman, who he refers

(51:35):
to as Mganda, and learns thatshe also knew Tamar. And if you're
like, Okay, why do wecare, You'll find out next week why
we care? Okay, You're gonnafind it out so many fucking things next
week. I can't even Okay,you're gonna know so much next week.
I get it. This week.I'm not telling you shit, no,

(51:57):
I mean, but dropping a lotof a little little easter, you know.
Ooh. So, as we mentionedin the last episode, Steve goes
on to write his first book,which was a bestseller called Black Dahlia Avenger
in two thousand and three, andafter its release, he finds new information
from the evidence room, which leadsto him writing two more books. When

(52:19):
he finds a box labeled Black Dahliaupon lifting a folder out, his father's
photo slips out, confirming that indeed, George Hodell was one of the LAPD's
prime suspects, actually confirming that hewas the prime suspect. Shit, okay,
yeah, Now, like all ofhis theories, these are all his

(52:40):
theories, right. I don't knowwhy the lapd wasn't being more helpful,
being like, well, hey,there's this box over here that you could
go check out or whatever. Buthe found that out post book number one.
George's suspect zero. Who is thisGeorge Hodell? You may be asking
Megan, are you I don't know? I sure? Sure? Am?

(53:00):
You have an idea? I don'tknow. You have an idea, but
you don't know, like you don'tknow. No, I don't know.
No. Okay, Well if youdon't know, now you know why.
I guess I should say that atthe end. Okay, anyhow, now
you're gonna know. So. GeorgeOdell was born on October seventh, nineteen
oh seven, in Los Angeles,California, to parents of Ukrainian descent.

(53:21):
He was an only child and saidto be very spoiled. At the age
of nine, he was called amusical prodigy for playing the piano, performing
solo concerts at prestigious music halls atnine. At nine, I was recording
myself singing because I was convinced thatI was the next fucking Britney Spears.
I knew you were going to say, Brittany. I knew it. I

(53:43):
fucking knew it. Why not SpiceGirls. No, that wasn't my thing.
Okay, I guess that's the UK. I'm conflating. That's rude.
You're not from the UK. Iwas just making an assumption that since you
were from across the pond, thatthe Spice Girls would have been your jam.
They were my jam, they're stillmy jam. I actually heard they
might be going on to Reunion tourthis year, and I'm freaking out.

(54:07):
I can't find more information anywhere.If you know, you guys, let
me know, because I will bethere. I am Baby Spice always.
I fucking knew you were going tosay baby Spice. I was just about
to ask I never got to bebaby Spice when I was younger. When
we played Spice Girls, I alwayshad to play sporty Spice, which fucking
pissed me off because I never wantedto be sporty Spice. But I had

(54:28):
brown her, so I mean nothingagainst sporty Spice. It's just not who
I wanted to be. Are youa millennial? I think in between what
year were you born? Ninety seven? You're gen z. You are on
the cusp of millennial because it's betweenninety seven and twenty twelve is gen z
Okay. I totally just assumed thatthe Spice Girls were a hot thing at

(54:52):
the same time for us. AndI don't think you were born, but
obviously you know about them because they'reiconic. If you want to be my
lover, you gotta go with myfriend, make it last forever friendship.
Never actually never understood that lyric.I don't get that either. I think
it just means like, you haveto get along with my friends. Yeah,

(55:14):
like, don't be a dick whatever, we have to move on.
They're like, shut the fuck up. Back to George and him being a
prodigy. We were talking about whilehe was nine, he was playing prestigious
concert halls and we were playing SpiceGirls in Britney Spears. So his mom
was extremely strict when it came toplaying piano. He was like, hey,
kind of go outside and throw ballsaround, that's what she said.

(55:36):
And she was like, no,you have to keep your hands safe because
you're a pianist. Hey, Isee see what you did. I can't
not laugh at that. But hefucking despised that, and after she died,
he was like, fuck piano,not playing piano anymore. When he
was fifteen, he took an IQtest and scored one eight six, which,

(56:00):
like I said, is one fuckingpoint above Einstein. So naturally,
he graduated early from high school andwent to college at the California Institute of
Technology at the age of fifteen.I mean, I don't know. This
all sounds great, but like,apart from being a fucking violent, disgusting
human being, later on in life, he did nothing. There's no mathematical

(56:23):
formula named after him. If you'resmarter than Einstein, I'm expecting big things
from you. No, right,Well, I think that was kind of
his problem, you know, smalldick syndrome. I have no idea what
size his dick was, but insidehe felt that it was small. And
I think he did a lot toprove how fucking cool he was. A

(56:44):
hot tip you, guys, nothingmakes you less cool than trying to be
cool. This is coming from somebodywho's like, not super cool. But
I'm just saying, I notice you'retrying too hard. I can tell cool
has to be effortless. Yeah,it has to be leaning against a wall
in a varsity jackets smoking a cigarette. Well, I think he had that
vibe going on because he did havean affair with a professor's wife when he

(57:07):
was fifteen or sixteen. Your professorwalking in and you fucking banging his wife,
hey, pest. Yeah, andso I mean he might have had
the fucking varsity jacket, cigarette smokingjam going on. Yeah. Also,
can we just call out the factthat he did not have an affair with
a professor's wife. A professor's wiferaped him because he was a child.

(57:30):
He was fifteen. God, ohgod, that's an opinion because the league
voyage of consent is different in alot of places. It's really low,
grossly low in a lot of places, and especially in the past, it
was even lower. But I'm sorry, if you're fifteen or sixteen, mentally
you're a kid. Oh yeah,yeah, definitely. He falls in love

(57:51):
with her. She ends up divorcingher husband because George got her pregnant.
She says, I'm going to theEast Coast and he's like, cool,
let's do this. I'll come withyou. We can get married, raise
our baby. And she's like,you're a child. So she knew it,
and this was apparently really devastating tohim. Well, yeah, you
have a kid out there. Youdon't know he was a kid. Who

(58:13):
was in love and had a fuckingkid. That's crazy. So no mathematical
formula, but I mean that's alittle bit of a legacy at the c
I T if you ask me,yeah, for sure, I'd say he
was talked about for years. Let'stake another quick commercial break, and when
we get back, we'll start totalk about George's love of art and how
that turned him into a gigantic monster. Weirdly, I know that sounds weird,

(58:37):
right, Yeah, we'll unpack it. Are you ready more ready?
I'm so ready. I've never beenmore ready for anything in my whole life.
Like me too, even though it'sthe worst, it's terrible. He
had a real love of art,even though he fucking suck use at stick
figure level, but wanted to beat Picasso level. He tried to prove

(59:00):
how dick dick. He tried toprove how big his dick was by kind
of involving himself in the Surrealist artmovement, and he even had an article
published in a newspaper which talked aboutthe Surrealist art movement. He wrote an
exert called Fantasia, which mentions quotethe grotesque theme of the fantasy, So

(59:24):
I didn't write more than that.I just saw you replay that in your
head because you're like, what thefuck does that mean? What did he
just say? He writes a wholeessay that's so fucking flowery word salad,
Like, oh, look at howsmart I am. I know all the
words that you don't that. Ididn't write any more of it because I
was like, I don't understand whathe's saying, and nobody else will.

(59:47):
That shit irritates me so much.During the week, I was only thinking
about how much the word therefore reallyirritates me. And I might have said
this before. The word therefore,I feel like, is used when people
are trying to sound smart. Peoplewrite the most basic paragraph and then they're
like, therefore, if there isno power, the lights cannot turn on,

(01:00:07):
or like, I went to McDonald'sthe other day and I got a
big mac. Therefore I was nolonger hungry. Yes, exactly, perfect
example. I am hungry now thoughnow that food's been mentioned. So he
showed this very strong interest in surrealismat a very young age, and this
will have a huge impact on therest of his life, his thinking,

(01:00:29):
and how he treats people. He'supon bosass dick. Fuck if you can't
tell, he takes a photography andsurrounded himself with artists who were mainly surrealists.
I've said this word a lot now, and you're like, what is
surrealism, Ashley. I didn't wantto say anything, but you are wondering.
I know. Yeah, it's thisvery fucking intellectual, high brow bullshit

(01:00:52):
that I had a really hard timeunderstanding. So luckily, big kudos to
my writing partner on this episode orthis whole season. Sally found a really
great quote from Mark Nelson, whowas the author of a book called The
Exquisite Corpse, which is amazing.It is filled with grotesque pictures, excellent

(01:01:16):
coffee book material. If you areweird and dark like me, it's been
sitting on my coffee table. Iactually got really upset the other day because
somebody actually accidentally used it as acoaster and I was like, fucking kidding
me. This was a gift.This is a beautiful book. Sacrilege.
Mark Nelson, the author describes itas this, which I was like,

(01:01:37):
thank you for saying something that Ican wrap my fucking head around. I
don't know if all surrealist art isabout this you know, Salvador Dolly painted
pictures of clocks melting and such,and but surrealism is often quote an interplay
of irrationality, eroticism, and violencerecur in a broad array of writings and

(01:02:01):
art. All right, I getit. The surrealist movement was all about
kind of challenging the norms. Canlet your freak flag fly. We'll be
going a lot more into surrealism anddetailed information on his friends in the fourth
episode, which I'm so looking forwardto, because surrealism is super crazy,

(01:02:22):
and I think that it did influenceso much of his life and who he
felt that he was. And Idon't know, so back to Georgia's earlier
days. At the age of seventeen, he drove taxis for a while,
then became a crime reporter for theLa Record. Therefore, he went on

(01:02:45):
numerous ride alongs with police and homicidedetectives. That's kind of fucked up.
Well, yeah, I would assumethat somebody who did that would have some
good knowledge into the workings of theLAPD, you know, so make some
good relationship some good friends there.Maybe. Oh why did I not think
of that when literally my instant thoughtof everything is this goes all the way

(01:03:07):
to the top. Guy, Ididn't think. Oh, he probably got
into cahoots with some people during thoseride along. Good job, Megan,
Thanks excellent detective work. See Icould totally to be a PI. No,
you could. I serious, like, look into it. How to
become a PI in Ireland? Gotan eye for detail? Courses online,

(01:03:28):
bitch, you can become a PIlike tomorrow. I'm super excited that we
just decided that, what the fuck, let's do this. I love this
for you and I'm on board.I'm probably more into the idea than you
are. But now I'm like,when are we starting? What semester are
we taking? What's the sketch?I'm gonna wear so many disguises. I'm
so excited. Oh my god,get the fuck out of here. Back

(01:03:51):
to the story. So during thistime he meant John Huston Houston. I'm
not exactly sure. He became fameddirector, screenwriter, and actor, and
he was also the father of AngelicaHouston. I always thought it was Houston,
but it's spelled as Huston, themain lady in the Adams Family the
two thousand remake. Oh, sohis friend John Huston is dating a woman

(01:04:15):
named Amelia at the time, andGeorge was dating Dorothy Derrero Harvey and I
keep distinguishing this Dorothy Drero because there'sanother Dorothy coming up. Okay, Derrero
and John end up falling in loveand getting married in nineteen twenty six,
So a couple of years later,George and Amelia take up. It's like

(01:04:38):
that movie. There's a movie withMeg Ryan I think from the nineties where
something similar happened. I would notknow who meg Rine is. Oh my
gosh, she stopped me in theface. You're making me feel so old.
There's only enough room in this worldfor like one meg it's me Sleepless
in Seattle. No, never seenit, but you've heard of it.

(01:04:59):
Surely. Wait, is she thegirl from the bunny Boiler movie? I
don't know what the fuck you're talkingabout, so probably Now what explain yourself
the bunny Boiler movie? Fuck,this guy has an a fair fatal attraction.
Why is it called bunny boiler thoughin your mind? Because she she
boils the bunny in ftal attraction.She like breaks into their house and boils

(01:05:19):
the family bunny. No, that'sSharon Stone. I'm ninety percent sure,
I've never seen the movie, butthis is a skill of mine. There's
Glenn Close on Archer. I don'tknow any of these people. No,
Sharon Stone isn't in it, andneither is the Meg Ryan. But Michael
Douglas is. So wait, whatthe fuck? Well, what's the one

(01:05:40):
with Sharon fucking Stone? God damnit. They're like, you, guys,
that is basic instinct. Do youknow who Sharon Stone is? Yeah?
I only know because she goes fullfucking frontal. She flashes everything but
jaj and all. Yeah, shedoes its iconic move where she's sitting,
she has her legs crossed and sheuncrosses her legs and just ooh, the
whole everything wild. So she justwent full frontal. Okay, get it

(01:06:03):
Sharon Stone? Yeah no, shewas just sex positive in the fucking eighties.
Good for her nineties. Sorry,now I want to watch this though.
I mean it is a classic,Oh, Michelle, if you're listening.
It's got a fifty seven percent onRotten Tomatoes though, and she knows
I go by the scores. That'slow. Yeah, fifty seven percent.

(01:06:25):
That's a fucking f If you're inschool, you're going back to school soon.
You got a fucking wait. Holdon, there's literally the clip right
here, right now. She's notnaked, she's just crossing her legs an
address. She's naked in the otherone. I don't know. I can't
watch this. No, I can'twatch this. Watch it. Stop me,
Stop me from what I'm doing.Okay, stop it. It's the
basic instinct. We got to moveon. Where am I? Around nineteen

(01:06:47):
twenty eight, George decided to goback to college at Berkeley for pre med
when he graduated. He attended theUniversity of California to get his empty and
graduated in nineteen thirty six. Soskilled surgeon. Remember M'm not gonna lie.
I don't know if he actually wasa surgeon, but he was a

(01:07:08):
doctor. Obviously. He went tocollege for that stuff. So while in
med school, he met another Dorothy, Dorothy Anthony and got her pregnant.
This man has like fucking super swore. Literally everyone he touches gets pregnant.
It's insane. He gets this newDorothy pregnant and after they give birth in

(01:07:28):
nineteen thirty five, or after shegives birth, he didn't also give birth,
but he does not get credit forthat. OGA in nineteen thirty five,
she gives birth and they eventually getmarried. So are you ready for
a big, old fucking yuck.George names their daughter Tamar, which is
after a poem about incest. UTamar is an epic poem by American writer

(01:07:55):
Robinson Jeffers and it was first publishedin nineteen twenty four. It is a
tale of incest and violence, followingTamar Caldwell, the daughter of a Californian
ranch family, as she experiences transgression, hatred, and destruction. Is the
poem there? Like, is ita short poem? It's an epic poem,

(01:08:17):
so that actually means that it's superduper long. Oh okay, fuck
that? Then what gross did hiswife? Dorothy? Was? She not?
Like, mm, where where didyou get that name from? It's
a little bit weird. He's like, oh, just this poem, just
like beautiful poem. I don't know. It just seems like George did whatever
the fuck he wanted anywhere and everywherewith anybody. I mean, yeah.

(01:08:38):
True. The story is inspired bythe books of Samuel in the Old Testament.
Just because if you guys haven't listenedto Ashon Michelle do the Bible yet,
we have the first episode on thefeed and the second half of the
second episode like Little Sneak Peak andAshon Michelle do. The Bible is on
Patreon and it's my favorite thing becausewe talk about a fucked up book.

(01:09:00):
It is, well, it's actuallysixty six books, but listen to this
ship. The story is inspired bythe book of Samuel's in the Old Testament,
especially to Samuel thirteen, which tellsthe story of am Non's rape of
his sister Tamar. Okay, allright, what the fuck is wrong with
the Bible? Wise, there's somuch rape and incest and murder and dog
I'm mistarted. Yeah, so Idon't know if she knew or not,

(01:09:24):
but that's what they named her.More on this next week. So George
quickly rose in his career as aphysician and became the head venereal disease officer
for the Los Angeles County Health Departmentin the forties. This was an insanely

(01:09:45):
prominent position with a ton of power. This is when Darrero comes back into
his life after divorcing John, andI don't know, I guess the other
Dorothy is out of the picture becausenow she's back with George. George and
Darrero or back together a true lovestory if I ever did hear one.
George calls her Darrero, which isderived from two Greek terms Doro meaning gift

(01:10:13):
and arrow being the god of love. So Tamar gets a name about a
fucking rape poem, and his wifehe gets a nickname about being the gift
of the god of love or something. So is this he just made up
a nickname? And he's like,oh, yeah, I made it out
of two Greek words. I woulddie of the cringe if somebody had done

(01:10:34):
that. You know, he reallydug Drero because she definitely was the woman
who was like most down to satisfyhis sadistic sexual desires. And she was
apparently, by this may have beenunder duress to please George, like she
fucked a lot of ladies, butI don't know it's because she really wanted

(01:10:54):
to. Yeah. George and Darreroend up having three sons named Michael,
Kelvin who they called Kelly, andSteve Steve Hodel. In nineteen forty five,
George bought the Sodan House now knownas the Franklin House, where he
was known for throwing insanely weird sexual, hedonistic, drug and hypnotic fueled parties.

(01:11:19):
He hypnotized a lot of ladies.He was super into hypnotism, and
he and Derero would engage in lotsof orgies and mostly I think just fuck
a lot of ladies. So couldElizabeth Short have been one of them?
Perhaps? Yeah, Okay, perhapsI'm dangling a lot of carrots. I

(01:11:42):
see, Yes. Perhaps. Twoof George's close friends that were always at
his house were Man Ray, asurrealist artist who was also their family photographer,
and Fred Sexton, also a surrealistartist. More on both of them
in episodes three for So next weekwe're going to talk about Tamar and how

(01:12:03):
George's treatment of Tamar kind of ledto this insane family traumatry. And we're
going to talk a lot more aboutsurrealism and what it is and how it
affected everything. But just know thatanother one of George's good friends who was
around a lot was Henry Miller,a surrealist artist who had most of his

(01:12:26):
books banned in the US because theywere disgusting. In the book World of
Sex, he wrote about how itwould help men if they committed incest and
best reality and that murder is notconsidered wrong or evil, but that the
fear of committing murder is what iswrong. I'm curious to know why he

(01:12:46):
thinks incest and beastiality is going tohelp men and then like murder is just
okay, maybe all brings you ontosome higher plane because this reality is a
dream. I don't fucking know.It's so late. This reality is a
dream, So go ahead and fucka dog. I don't even know,
dude. It's also goes above myhead. I'm not intellectual like that,

(01:13:08):
so I can't even try to explainthis shit. I don't know if it's
intellectual and just like actually being smart, or if it's just being so fucking
bored or so out of touch thatyou're just creating shit and you're making shit
up. Yeah, so I'm notsaying that all surrealist artists were super fucked
up. But you know, thisman was a surrealist writer, and as

(01:13:30):
we mentioned earlier, Mark Nelson saidthat surrealism is often quote an interplay of
irrationality, eroticism, and violence.Those were some I think pretty core tenants
man, Ray Fred Sexton, HenryMiller, These very very controversial surrealist figures
were his besties, and I thinkthat you can tell a lot about a

(01:13:54):
person by their friends. Yeah,there's there's some kind of saying by that,
like you are the company you keepor something like that. Once again,
this group of friends of his andthis surrealist view would be a huge
part of George's life and obviously havevery big impact on who he became and

(01:14:14):
his actions. In nineteen forty five, George actually began to purposely misdiagnose people.
As I stated earlier, he hadbecome the head of VD control in
LA and at the time VD wasa huge issue because it had been a
really big problem during World War One, actually because men lost a lot of

(01:14:35):
days that they could fight because theyhad syphilis and or gonorrhea. There is
a huge public push to eradicate thesediseases in the name of liberty. Syphilis
and gon ariha are not going totake America down while we're fighting the rest
of the world. Ooh, imaginethe two. At one time, also,

(01:14:57):
having one of these was seen assuper taboo because it was often associated
with sex workers, people of lowersocioeconomic status, and other minorities. This
guy was having fucking orgy parties.Oh yeah, no, he was probably
the one fucking passing the goddamn VDaround. That's what I'm saying. Those
parties are full of the fancy,posh people. That's the breeding ground probably

(01:15:18):
where syphilis was made. Also,if you were married and got a positive
VD chest result, this was anobvious sign that you had been unfaithful to
your spouse. Being able to diagnosepeople with this was very powerful because you
are putting a very intense label onthem. So his secretary at the time,

(01:15:39):
Ruth Spaulding, who he was havingan affair with, heard back from
a patient who was complaining that shewanted her money back, saying that George
had misdiagnosed her with gonorrhea. Shesaid she got a second opinion, she
did not have it, and shewas fucking pissed, and she's like this
motherfucker said I had it and Idon't and I want my money back.

(01:16:00):
So you know, Ruth was intoGeorge though at the time, so I
don't know whatever. But when Georgebroke it off with Ruth, she was
like m she was very upset andshe started threatening George, saying that she
was going to expose the fact thatnot only had he been intentionally misdiagnosing people
with VD, but also had beenperforming illegal abortions. Oh you know,

(01:16:23):
fuck with Ruth. She was holdingsome cards for sure, and she had
even started documenting these things on paper. He goes to her house one night
and calls Durero saying that he's atRuth's and she's unconscious. I don't know
what he said his reason for beingthere was, but he says, I'm
at Ruth. She's unconscious. It'san obvious suicide attempt. She probably overdosed,

(01:16:46):
but she's still alive and she's goingto be okay, he said,
But you should come over here becauseshe's been writing some shit down. I'm
going to need you to burn thatstuff. Just got his little underling to
do it. Why can't he doit? Yeah, I don't know,
because he was too busy murdering Ruthand trying to cover it up. While
Ruth is still unconscious, he ordersa cab to take her to the hospital

(01:17:08):
Alibi and such, and she diestwenty minutes after arriving. Now he's under
suspicion of murder, but nothing actuallyhappens and it's determined suicide. That's a
little dodgy. Obviously it's a littlebit dodgy knowing that what we know,
but there no no investigation, there'sjust nothing done. Well, I mean,

(01:17:28):
it's like you said, he probablyhad friends in the Neal LAPD.
I think money and power back thenand weirdly still today can buy you a
lot, including freedom. Back toTamar and the summer of nineteen forty nine,
Tamar was sent to live with Georgeby her mom, Dorothy, not

(01:17:48):
Drero. But this doesn't last verylong because she ended up running away and
she was picked up by police,and when they asked her why she didn't
want to return home, she toldthem that herd had raped her. More
details on Tamar's side of the trialand just all about Tamar in next week's
episode. So on October sixth,nineteen forty nine, police go to the

(01:18:11):
Franklin House and arrest George for incest. The Los Angeles Daily News prince an
article about doctor Hotel's arrest where hegives a statement saying, quote, everything
is a dream to me. Ifthis is true and I am really here,
then these other things must have happened. So he basically and I admitted
it. He's like, well,if I'm here, I must have done
it right. And also that's somefucking surrealist bullshit word salad. What are

(01:18:36):
you even saying? So George hiresan attorney named Jerry Gisler and has Fred
Sexton testify in his defense, ashe was supposedly present in the room on
the day in question. So justto make that clear this day that in
question in trial, not only wasshe supposedly raped by her father, but

(01:19:00):
apparently this man Fred Sexton was alsopresent. The trial lasts two weeks and
paints Tamar as a pathological liar.Her mother I'm not sure if she testified
this. I think she fucking did, because Dorothy goes to George and it's
like, what the fuck you rapedTamar? And George is like, oh,

(01:19:21):
well, that's weird because actually Tamartold me that you were doing that
to her, which is fucking classicgaslighting psychopath techniques. I'm actually pretty sure
that her mom also testified that shewas a liar. But basically the trial
just painted her as a total fuckingpathological liar. And she's only fourteen.

(01:19:42):
She's fourteen, And the jury cameback after just one hour with a not
guilty verdict. On December twenty fourth, nineteen forty nine. That's yeah,
I'm not surprised though at all.That's nicely. I wish I could say
I was, but I'm not.No, I mean, it's you're right,
like, it's not really surprising.Actually, So he sold the house

(01:20:03):
in nineteen fifty and went to Hawaiito study psychiatry at Hawaii State Hospital.
Not weird, right that he justtotally skipped down. Yeah, why would
one maybe do that. He alsolater moved to the Philippines, which I
think you and I were talking aboutis like the pedo fucking hotspot. It
is. Yeah, a lot ofpeople go to the Philippines to sexually abuse

(01:20:26):
children. I know someone, andobviously this is born of poverty and desperation,
but I knew someone who was inthe Philippines and a woman approached him
on the street with her underage daughterand was like, do you want to
buy her? Tried to sell herto him. I don't know if it
was for the night or forever.But that's crazy. It's so sad what

(01:20:47):
people have to It's sad what peoplehave to do. But at the same
time, that should never be anoption. It's really fact. Also he
said that, you know he hedudes, just old, gross dudes walking
around with obviously underaged girls on theirfucking arms. My stomach is fully turning
yuck with a huge fucking side ofyuck. Yeah, so I'm not surprised

(01:21:10):
that he moved there at all.When he lived there, he worked in
market research. Married again, becausethis dude fucking loves getting married and having
kids, had four more kids.So, in case you're trying to do
math, he now has eleven kidswith five different women. I told you
super sperm. Yeah, Katherine Knighthad the magic pussy and he has the

(01:21:31):
super sperm. Buck. Yes,girl, you nailed it. If you
haven't listened to Katherine Knight on GarusomGirls, gals do it. That's my
favorite episode I think we've done together. I don't know what my favorite is.
I've loved them all so much.I know it's a hard pick.
So in nineteen ninety, he returnedto Los Angeles and married another woman named

(01:21:53):
June. June was actually his fourthwife legally. Yeah, is this man
getting divorced or is he just bundlingmarriages up? Don't ask me to keep
track. That's crazy, Okay,please Megan you're asking too much, but
he in June. They lived inSan Francisco until he died on May seventeenth,

(01:22:14):
nineteen ninety nine, at the ageof ninety one. Fucky, he
lived a long time. Oh,he just had a long, great life
where he was just being successful inbusiness and just humping and getting married NonStop.
Fucking bullshit, dude. Yeah,we're gonna take one more commercial break,
and when we get back, wewill wrap up this part of our

(01:22:36):
story. Okay, guys, we'reback. I know you're on the edge
of your seat. Here we go. When Steve was investigating after learning that
George had been the prime suspect,he uncovered some additional transcripts and these were

(01:22:57):
from after the incestrial. George saysreally fucking questionable shit in them. They're
suspecting him of the Black Dahlia murder. The LA District Attorney's office bugged his
house under audio surveillance throughout February eighteenth, nineteen fifty to March twenty seventh,
nineteen fifty and what he was foundsaying was well, very troublesome. So,

(01:23:24):
like I said, he found thesetranscripts from when the District Attorney's office
bugged his house, and all ofthis is from February eighteenth, nineteen fifty
the first fucking day, So Februaryeighteenth, nineteen fifty seven, thirty five
pm. It sounds like he's speakingto somebody, possibly well it's definitely a
man, possibly with a German accent, and he says, suppose and I

(01:23:45):
did killed the black Dahlia. Theycould improve it now, yeah, and
I'm twisting my mustache. Yeah,they could improve it now. They can't
talk to my secretary anymore because she'sdead. At seven forty five, ten
minutes later, he is talking withthe same dude and says, quote,
realized there was nothing I could do. Put a pillow over her head and
cover her head with a blanket,get a taxi called Georgia Street receiving hospital

(01:24:11):
right away. Expired at twelve thirtynine. They thought there was something fishy
anyway, Now they may have figuredit out killed her. Maybe I did
kill my secretary. So it's kindof a not super succinct wording because it's
from the transcript, so they probablyweren't picking up every single word, but
killed her. Maybe I did killmy secretary doesn't sound great. Put a

(01:24:33):
pillow over her head. Yeah,it doesn't send very good for you.
About an hour later, at eightfifty pm, they heard a woman scream,
and she screamed again at a latertime. I don't know, I
got the time mixed up, butthey heard her scream twice at different intervals.
They note that quote a woman wasnot heard before the time of screaming.

(01:24:56):
She was not in any conversation andnot heard of again till the time
of letting out these two screams.It's so interesting. Was there anything that
any woman was reported missing? Idon't know. They just said that they
never heard a woman speaking, justa woman screaming. So Steve is very
upset by this information because he doesn'tunderstand why the detectives who are listening just

(01:25:18):
five minutes away would not take action. I mean, of course that would
upset you, but it was writtenin the notes that they did not do
anything because it would have risked blowingtheir cover. And oh, yeah,
I mean that's true. But awoman is possibly dying and you could catch
him in the act, like Idon't what, Yeah, you would think

(01:25:39):
that they could catch him in theact for that, and then they would
have a good reason to search hishome and possibly find evidence to back up
their original theory that he killed ElizabethShort, right, Yeah, no,
it really doesn't make sense to meat all. We're jumping around a little
bit. But Tamar has an abortion. Remember that Tamar went to trial for

(01:26:00):
her dad raping her, not foranything that had to do with pregnancy or
an abortion. So Tamar does endup having an abortion, which we're going
to talk about. So Steve discoversthat a man named Charles Smith and a
man named doctor Ballad did assist inTamar's abortion that happened in September of nineteen
forty nine. This is also thesame year of the incest trial. Though.

(01:26:24):
Okay, so what's going on,right, I don't know. So
he finds out that George paid CharlesSmith a thousand dollars just four days after
his acquittal. I do find thisa little bit confusing. I don't know
if it was hush money, butkeeps paying people off its sketch. Charles
Smith then had his own trial forperforming Tamar's abortion, and this is when

(01:26:45):
George asks a woman named Lillian Leniakto lie on the stand saying that Tamar
never had an abortion. Steve alsolearns that Lillian Lenarak threatened to tell investigators
that she had perjured herself and thatshe had been at the Franklin House in
nineteen fifty holding a gun to George, threatening to kill him quote for what

(01:27:09):
he had done. And we knowthis information from a guy named Joe Barrett,
who was renting a room in theFranklin House at the time. Joe
said that he was present that theday that that took place and that he
took the gun away from Lillian,and in a two thousand and three interview
he said that she said quote forwhat he had done in reference to the

(01:27:31):
murder of Elizabeth Short. Oh.I don't know. I wonder what would
have happened and what would have beenuncovered if she did kill him there and
then. I don't know, butshe probably should have because none of that
turned out great for her. No, George drugged Lilian cut her wrists superficially

(01:27:53):
to make it look as though shehad attempted suicide, and the maker looked
like she was crazy, because youcould just do that back in the day.
You could just take your wife tothe mental institution and be like,
she's hysterical. Yeah, she'll getit. Libout of me. She'll be
fine, she'll be fine. Don'tworry. You'll get it back in a
week. Good as now. AndI don't know if you know this,
but the word hysterectomy means the removalof the uterus. And back in the

(01:28:18):
day, they thought that the uteruswas the females source of hysteria. Wait,
that is so fucking ridiculous. Butdidn't they like, that's how the
dildo was created? Oh gool Weare starting to do live shows soon.
Super excited about that. We're goingto do the history of dildos for one.

(01:28:41):
And yeah, dildos were I'm prettysure initially invented by doctors to help
women cure their hysteria because women werejust, you know, hysterical and they
had to faint on couches, andthey thought that the source of the hysteria
was the uterus. A little funtidbit of history for you there. Steve

(01:29:01):
also finds out that Lillian was thewitness who told police here we are that
she recognized Elizabeth Short in a photoas one of George's girlfriend. Is there,
it is there? It is Itold you earlier I was going to
drop it, and I dropped itlike it was hot. He initially found
that photo that he was like,this looks like Elizabeth Short, but then

(01:29:24):
he found out that it wasn't.But then Lillian is like, actually,
check out this picture. That isGeorge and he is with Elizabeth because they
were fucking hooking up. Mic drop. I'm shocked, shook at George's horrendous
acts against Tamar in just a fewmonths, that she stayed with him eventually

(01:29:45):
led to his downfall. Even ifhe was acquitted. However, one question
remained. Remember how Tamar had anabortion? Anne gave a baby up for
adoption in last week's episode. Wedefinitely remember last week's episode that she gave
up a baby for adoption, Sonow in this episode we know she still
gave the baby up for adoption.And now for sure we know that she

(01:30:10):
also had an abortion. So that'stwo kids. Where they both from George?
I don't know, because there's proofthat she did give birth to a
baby girl, So this child doesindeed exist and her name was Fauna.
In nineteen sixty nine, at theage of eighteen, Fauna was searching for

(01:30:30):
her birth mother, Tamar, andwrote a letter to a man in Japan
who she believed was her grandfather,Bingo. She was right, It was
fucking George. Apparently he was livingin Japan for a while as well.
I don't know he was just okay, I don't know what the fuck he
was doing. She gets a callfrom George and he's like, sup,
I am your grandfather and your momlives in Hawaii. So two years later,

(01:30:51):
at the age of twenty, Faunasearches for tamar Ney's hodel and finds
her number calls. Can you imaginegetting that call? No, Jesus no.
So a girl named Deborah answered thephone and hands it to her mother,
saying, quote, your daughter Faunais on the telephone. And next

(01:31:13):
week we are going to get intoTamar and Fauna's relationship. So George had
Tamar named her after a poem aboutincest, raped her, then gas lit
her in court and made her looklike a pathological liar. But then we
don't know yet. She does haveanother child that she gives up for adoption.

(01:31:38):
Both could be George's. One couldbe George's, one could be somebody
else's. We're not quite sure yet. But Tamar does have this daughter named
Fauna that she gives up for adoption, and Tamar and Fauna go on to
have extremely interesting and pretty fucked uplives and we're going to talk about their

(01:31:58):
stories in next week's episode, andI'm not gonna lie. It's fucking heavy, dude,

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