OWN YOUR GAME! 2 full episodes with Dave Stockton

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, it's Fred. You know I regularly get asked about
my all time favorite episodes, and this one comes to
mind because our guest is Dave Stockton. Over thirty years
as a touring professional, Dave won eleven times on the
PGA Tour, including two PGA Championships in nineteen seventy and
nineteen seventy six. After that, he joined the Champions Tour

(00:23):
in nineteen ninety two and won fourteen times through nineteen
ninety seven, including two Senior PGA Championships and the US
Senior Open. Later, he went on to become one of
the most sought after short game instructors in the world.
So in this episode we tried something different as it
was two complete episodes in one conversation that was presented

(00:46):
at one time to Golf Smarter members behind our paywall
and has never been shared publicly before. I know you'll
agree with me that there's a lot of really helpful
insights and instruction from one of the best. So here's
Golf Smarter episode's number four hundred thirty and four hundred
and thirty one from April one, twenty fourteen.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain
insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the
Golf Smarter podcast Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our
interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations
like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
I was never the most gifted physically, but I'm going
to beat you mentally. If seventy five or six was
the best I could do, has certainly made the sixty seven.
I was going to need to shoot the next day
to make the cut a much more viable approach rather
than getting all mad and happy about it. It's like
the two things with Rory, the one I alluded to
for he won the opening where I basically had him

(01:51):
use monitoring how he played the secondment, which is his
PGA Atkiwa where I saw in the leak before. And
he had a terrible year so far, up and down.
He wasn't consistent, he hadn't defended a US opened very
well at the Olympic Club in San Francisco and miss
and cuts. As we were leaving Actor in the week
before and I said, I want you to do me
a favor, and he looked right at me, which he

(02:13):
always does, and I said to him, I am getting
really tired of turning on a TV and telling whether
you burdied or both be the last hole. And I
don't know why you're giving your opponents an opportunity to
get you. I said, you got to forget the bad shots,
and he did.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Own your game. How to use your mind to play
winning golf with Dave Stockton. This is Golf Smarter, and
now we bring you the full unedited seventy minute interview
with Dave Stockton, including about five minutes before we actually
started the show. Dave, let me give you little background here.
The purpose of Golf Smarter. The way I started it was,

(02:54):
you know, I'm not a golf professional. I'm not a
PGA instructor, just a guy who likes to play on
the weekends and I like to ask a lot of questions.
But when I started doing this show, my thought was
that if you have a strong mental game and you
understand strategy, you're going to lower your scores a lot

(03:15):
faster than if you were just trying to work on
your swing mechanics.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Wow, boy, you you're You're way ahead of a whole
lot of people. As far as.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
I'm concerned, so it's so I've developed this following, which
amazing because it's unlike radio, it's worldwide, and we've built
this community on this whole concept and it's worked very well.
According to you know, iTunes and Google online, it's the

(03:45):
most popular golf podcast. So wow, I must have done
something right.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
It's amazing because what you're doing is not not normal
really because so many people they get so wrapped up
on the physical part of it. Do you let me
ask you a question if you talk to Deborah Graham, no,
John for John Stabler.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
No, I'm always looking for new people to talk to
as well.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well. There it was interesting because Golf World ran an
article about the brain in November, and Ritella and Julie
Ellian and Coop and there were three or four and
they ended the whole thing by saying, you know, they
got a track man for the for the metal game,

(04:34):
for the physical game, but they don't have anything for
the brain, right, and John Stabler and Deborah Graham actually do.
I mean, you can be fifty foot away from somebody
and you can tell exactly when they make their decision
to hit a shot or if they changed their mind.
You can you can literally read it and know immediately

(04:56):
this person is not not confident, or this person is
not hasn't pictured what they're trying to do. It blows
you away. I mean, she was a psychologist that I
used at the Ryder Cup at Kiowa and in ninety
one to profile my players so i'd get them to
play better.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
That was such a fascinating story. I love that. I
didn't mind the name dropping. It added credibility to the book.
But I but there were parts of it, like I
was even while I was reading it, and we'll get
into this when we do the interview, but there were
two paragraphs in there that I said to my wife,
I said, I can do at least a half hour

(05:32):
on just these two paragraphs alone, right, because the nuance
of what you were talking about, and I'm not going
to tell you what it is because we'll do it
during the show, but the nuance was like, we can
pick into that so much, and I'd have so many
questions about that. So yeah, I love that kind of stuff.
To me, that's what makes the most sense.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
That's interesting because most people they have no clue. And
the reason is funny. I wrote the Putting Book and
I thought, well, okay, that's because everybody consider themselves bad putters,
and everybody thinks I know how to teach putting, so
this will be a natural. And then I realized, after
I work with the people, how many people were not
good chippers. So we did the Chipping book, and as
I'm doing that, I'm coming to realize this last book

(06:16):
and on your Game is basically the most important one,
because if I have somebody really good that I'm going
to get paid to have them played better, I am
literally going to have them call Debra and have him
take her test because I want to find out and
I want them to see how, you know, how mentally
they're weak in different places and it makes all the

(06:38):
difference in the world.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, I actually have. There was another woman in Florida.
I'm blanking on her name right now, but I did
do a show with her and we talked about the
four different personality styles right of golfers and how to
figure out how to play with them. And I think
the thing that I learned mostly from her was you
never conduct business on the golf course. You learn if

(07:02):
you want to do business with that person by the
way that person plays golf. Sure, yeah, I thought that
was absolutely fascinating and really valuable.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Right, yeah, no, no doubt.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Have you have you noticed lately on the tour where
they talk about strokes gained putting this new stat that
they're talking about and strokes gained driving. Right, So the
guy who came up with golf metrics, Mark Brodie, Yeah,
he was just on the show two weeks ago.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, he's written the book. I you know, again, I
have not gotten into that, so I don't you know,
and I don't I know they've changed it in everything,
but I you know, And it was interesting to hear
him say that. You know, he basically thinks the other
part of the game is more important, So it was
kind of surprising.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Well, what I found out from him was that what
he was saying is they everyone beats themselves up on putts,
and I know that like if I three putt, I
carry that with me, right, that if I start putting poorly,
doesn't matter how the rest of my game is going,
that that will impact my mood for that day. And
yet what he's saying is actually putting you know, you

(08:13):
should look at the rest of your game because putting
only accounts for about twenty seven percent of your scoring.
The way the way he had it, so it was fascinating.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
So all right, so this is how we'll do it.
I'll say, Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast, Dave. You
say hi, Fred, and then we'll see where it goes
from there.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
You got it, Fred, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Okay, here we go. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast, Dave.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Thank you, Fred, good to be with you.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Well, thank you very much. I loved reading your book.
It didn't take me a long time, but I consumed
every word of the new book Own Your Game, and
it spoke to me in so many ways. Is because
I'm a big believer in the mental game and strategy,
not necessarily course management, but strategy. And I love the

(09:11):
way that you actually discussed strategy as a very different
approach than just talking about the metal game.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Right. I mean, the people you talk about routines, and
everybody thinks their routine is okay, what's happening just before
the ball? And I tried to explain in the book.
You know, you play a hole like the twelfth hole
in Augusta under the pressure of playing in the Masters,
your routine starts to minute you the second you drop
the ball. The hole on eleven, because immediately you're looking

(09:41):
to see what the trees behind twelve are doing, because
once you get up on the twelfth p it's blocked
by a giant grand stan of people and you really
can't tell. So you're automatically already starting to think about
the next hole. You're shetting, and as a good golfer
will do, or most of the time, you know the eleventh
hole is buying you anyway, so you might will start
getting your mind and your routine ready to go on

(10:02):
the next one. It's not and it's not just your
physical routine. And for me, the metal side.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Is so important to it, absolutely, And I love the
line here strategies about tilting the odds in your favor
as much as you can exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
I mean, that's like going by a certain hole I
keep picking on on Augusta. But you know you watch
different courses. Well, let's say the let's say the Phoenix
open that has the sixteenth toll with a million people
sitting around yelling at you. You know you better, you
better realize what the wind's doing and the conditions as

(10:41):
you go down fifteen, because when you get inside that enclosure,
you can't tell. And you know, so many people are
affected by the next shot they're going to hit or
the last shot they did hit that they're you know,
they're not getting the whole idea, they're not getting the
whole thing that could make it an easy day for them.
They just have these series of blips that I don't
they're not conscious of, and they don't they don't gain

(11:03):
the perspective you know, when we all have when we
have our days, we all play good. It happens so
so easily that there's not a whole lot of thought,
and then all of a sudden you get going bad.
And if you don't have the wherewithal the get get
it behind you and get get it turned around. Uh,
you're in trouble. I mean, one of the things I
asked when I'm working with people, I said, Okay, if

(11:24):
you're only going to be given six one puts today,
what is your reaction when you're over the first twelve
holes and you make one? I'm thirteen so now, but
you don't know you're going to make the next five
no matter if they're two foot or fifty, you're going
to make all of them. What was your reaction? Was it? Well,
I'm a that that figures I've getting that I found
an acorn or you know, something kind of negative and

(11:44):
said instead of being in meaning it saying oh boy,
here we go. Now I got it, Here we go
and it's I don't know it. To me, it's fun
and I'm glad to hear you, you know, talk about
what you're doing out there, because you're you've tapped to
exactly what I think is the key to having people
play a lot better, a lot faster, and much easier

(12:06):
on themselves.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
When you say play a lot faster, you know, you
talked a lot about pre shot routine, and I think
we can do There were two paragraphs in the book
that talk about pre shot routine that to me, we
can do the entire episode on. And I'm just going
to pick your brain on that because I feel like
I have a good pre shot routine, but after reading

(12:34):
your book, I feel like it's a very mechanical pre
shot routine and I do the same things over and over,
but I'm not thinking about or noticing the same things.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Well, did you remember my little story about January in there?

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Please tell it? Because I've read the book. Not everybody has, Okay,
but did you remember it, the January story about January.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Before I talked about January stopping me as I was
going off the first team playing with he and Arnold Palmer.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Oh right, Oh, I thought you meant the month.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yes. Yes, it was probably one of the most unbelievable
things to me because I had never I've been on
twury a year and a half. Of course I didn't
I didn't make the cuts most of the time, and
I was you know, I'd never met Arnold until that
faithful day at the LA Open at Ranchell. And He's
got me by seven, He's got January by four. January's

(13:28):
and third, and I'm in fifth, and I get introduced
to him, and you know, Heat's off and everybody roars.
And then January' is the PGA champion. Heat's off. Everybody roars.
It's my turn. And as January hits, I'm looking at
my feet and my toes are just bouncing up down
because I'm nervous as heck. But uh, and I'm heavy enough.
I looked at my my shoes aren't moving. I'm going
that's good. Nobody can tell I'm petrified. So I get

(13:50):
my ball, stays on the tee. I give it a
whack right down the middle, and I grabbed the tea
and I'm not a foot away from have to grabbing
my tea on a dead run to catch Arnold. I
hear this voice, goes son Son and basically it's January
and asked me. He said, what do you see out there?
And I said, well, I see twenty thousand people. He said, no, no, no,
watch Arnold. Arnold's now got us by fifty yards because

(14:12):
January walks really slow. And he said, I just want
to let you know that you have a problem today.
And I said, what's that. He says, well, now Arnold's
almost to where my ball is, and they're both like
forty yards behind and pass me, and he says, you
notice how far we're by you. I said, yes, sir,
And he says, well, we're going to do that all
day except when we can't putt like you, so we're

(14:33):
going to be even. He said, but the problem you have.
And now now Palmer's at his ball looking back at us,
and we're still fifty yards for me to get to
my ball, taking these little bitty steps, and he he
looks to me, he says, you know the problem you
have is if you go Arnold's pace, this is my pace.
We're walking right now, and you're going to see me

(14:53):
walking up your backside all day. And he said, but
on the other side, Arnold can't hit till you hit Kenny.
And I said no, sir. He said, well, you go
my face and it's going to be very difficult on
mister Palmer today. And I go, that's different. And so
the second and we all parted. One. We go to
the second hall and I can't walk that slow. In fact,

(15:15):
I was sore and taking a little step. So I
went to the left. Then I crossed to the right
and there was nobody there, but I just made this
big X and I came back to my ball. January
walked by and he winked at me, and so we
all parted the second. The third hole is a part
of three. I only walked to one side and the
fourth hole of my wife Kathy walks up and she says,
what are you doing? And I said well, and I

(15:38):
pulled her under the rose, put my arm around her,
and I said, mister January said this about you know
my pace of play. He knows I play fast, he
knows I don't take practice swings, and he said, and
he just said that I'm going to get derailed by
him walking out of my backside, and I ought to
think about my pace of play. I had never in
two and a half years or two years on tour,
I ever thought about playing slower faster. And consequently she said,

(16:03):
what sounds like I'm a good idea to me. I'm
on the eighteenth tee, I am. I walked twenty miles,
I am dead tired. I'm five under for the day
and I've picked up five shots on Palmer. I'm within
two shots he Birdi's the last hole to win the tournament.
I finished fourth, and I really learned something well. I
passed the same same thing on to McElroy insomuch as

(16:26):
when he blew the Masters, and I met him three
weeks later for the first time because his caddie wanted
me to work with him. And his opening question to
me at Charlotte, my son Ronnie was with me. He says,
what what do you What did you see me at
the Masters? And I said yeah, he said, what'd you think?
I said, I thought you had a terrible pairing and
he looks at me like I had four eyes you know,

(16:49):
I said, well, I saw you pair with Cabrera, and
Cabret is the world's nicest guy, but unfortunately he plays
just as fast as you. And I said, you ask
me what I saw. I saw two guys that played
stand around and wait and wait, and it was their
turn to hit. They hurt. They hit really fast because
you're both fast players, and they'd walk fast. Now they
got to stand around there and wait and wait to
wait again. And basically I said, you had no rhythm.

(17:13):
I mean it was almost you should have realized that
you were the last ones out and nobody you know,
you can't. You can't go through the in front of you,
so you might as well just take your time. Well,
he bought into that. We looked at his putting physically.
There was nothing wrong. In fact, he had great routine
and stuff as far as the physical part of it,
and I see him it wentworth three weeks later in

(17:34):
London and then comes up to Congressional where I won
my second PGA, and that was the US Open, and
again or the lesson lasted maybe a minute or two.
Everything looked fine, so I wasn't going to tell him
anything else. We'd go to the last round the seventh
to ten toll. The part three, he had two hundred
yard shower. I'd be hitting the seven wood and he's
hitting the seven aron hit at about six inches and

(17:54):
then it gave him a five or six shot lead
at that point. But the eleventh toll congressionals are really tough.
Part four, water down the right, big trap on the left,
and Rory walked off. But within a minute he was
back up on the green with his putter, just one
putting with his left hand, no ball, just you know,
making him looking or the eighteenth green, enjoying the people

(18:17):
and his kame must have been there seven eight minutes
since Caddy finally walked up. Whatstled at him? He went
back down. He hit the t shirt and I thought,
this kid learns pretty fast, because he didn't want to
stand down there on that tee like he did at
the Masters, and stood there and let the pressure build.
And so what would you know. It's a long answer
to your question, but basically, that one thing that January

(18:37):
did for me made me aware of the surroundings around me,
whether I was going to play slower that day or
faster that day, and it changes. It's not anything consistent
but you got to do something that's going to make
you feel comfortable.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
I love that story. And please, any question I ask
you can take as long as you'd like to answer.
And I have no issue with that, No problem, okay.
And you know I tend to be a fast walker
when I play, but my preshot routine is very deliberate,

(19:12):
and my putting routine is very deliberate. Maybe that slows
me down, that changes my rhythm based on the rest
of my life, which is fairly quick. Is that am
I working against myself by doing that?

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Absolutely, we don't have a method. I say, Wade, Ronnie
or Dave Junior, myself, Stock and golf. We use our
eyes and our job looking at you is to make
you comfortable. Well, what I tell you would be something different.
I'd tell your neighbor or if you're a for handicap

(19:49):
and they're at thirty, you're gonna tell them something different
because and yet everybody is into this mechanical thing. But
I'm here to tell you. I mean, I've I played
golf too many years, over forty years on a two
tour combined, and I have never seen anybody yet the
normal routine is people slow down, I'll never forget watching
Faldo beat beat Scott Holk and a playoff on ten

(20:12):
in Augusta when Scott's got a two foot putt to
win and he backed off and then came back in.
I'm screaming at the TV because I knew he was
gonna miss him. Another one at the Masters with Ed
Snead had a three shot lead with three holes to go,
and all of a sudden it looked like his body
had been taken over by an alien the last three

(20:32):
because his routine went twice as long as what had
been doing. And just because you want to throw a
dart in the center of a bullseye, if I make
you stand there and stare at this thing and slow down,
it isn't gonna work as good. He can't. And that's
why what we call what we do the signature approach
is first lesson whether you're your Michaelson or Mceilroy or

(20:55):
the girl next door, I'm gonna have you sign your signature.
There's no right or wrong way, but you're certainly going
to have a reasonable pace to signing your own signature.
Some people, like Billy Casper, would be very deliberate. Other
people are going to be very very fast. Okay, but
you're gonna be comfortable with what you do. But now
I'm gonna throw you out of your comfort zone because
I'm gonna have you. I want you to give it

(21:16):
to me again, only this time, I want you to
look at your signature. I want you to picture what's
there and right below it, I want you to duplicate
that same signature. But you've got to do it slowly.
You got no chance. I can't do the D and Dave.
I can literally not do my first and if I
go slow, I can't do it. And that's because if

(21:36):
it's something that should be in your subconscious and yet
you try to do it. You can. If you practice
and you hit a zillion balls, yeah, you get to
a proficient level, but you'll never be great at what
you're doing. And because it's a constantly changing thing. And
so yeah, I mean I again. You'd have to watch

(21:58):
you and say, Okay, what's the normal routine would Fred
feel comfortable with? And then I would want it to
be slightly faster rather than slightly slower because when you
take more time and I ask people, do you take
practice strokes? Can you put red?

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (22:10):
I do. Well. Do you do you play pool at all?

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (22:14):
I do, okay, and I relate pool shooting to being
a good cutter. So do I? Oh my god, why don't.
I'm willing to bet you that you don't stand a
foot to the side of your cue ball and practice
your stroke you're going to make before you step behind it.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
No.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
And I don't stand to the side of my golf
ball either. I stand behind it, looking at the line,
feeling like what my stroke will be there?

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Okay, Well, that's that's what Annica Sorenstan had to do
because she'd bound and the termine she had to have
a stroke. Uh. Just talk work with Mike Wheer. He
feels the same way. He has to have that practice stroke. Uh.
But I find it humorous that most people shoot pool
just put the custick up behind it and now they
leave it still. No, they go it back and fourth.

(23:00):
But the average person takes their practice stroke up by
the ball, okay, not behind it. If you're gonna take
a practice stroke, you should be at right angles to
your line, looking straight over the ball toward the hole
to feel what you're doing. If that's what you need
to do, I have a hard time believing people need
to do that. But a lot of people do it.
But the ones that come up beside the ball parallel

(23:22):
to it, take a couple of strokes, put the club
behind the ball, look at the hall briefly, then look down,
set their feet. They're looking basically at the ball. And
yet that'd be just the same amount as smart. So
that would use to throw a dart at something. You're
focusing on the number or the bullseye that you're going
to try to put the dart into. You're not looking
at your hand, and it literally blows me away that people.

(23:47):
I mean, I'll the first thing I'll do is I'll
not let people take a practice stroke. Get up closer
to the ball, set their right foot if their right
hand is set their right foot, put the putter on
the ground. Now look at the hole. Now set your feet,
which means bringing your left foot up online and look
at the hole. Get self comfortable. And I ask them,

(24:08):
and I'm holding onto their head, I said, you see
your line, You see where the ball's going in yep, Okay,
I won't let them come back. I said, go ahead
and stroke it. You can't imagine how many times these
people without even looking down at the ball, since they're
looking out at the target, same thing they would be
if they were throwing a dart. You cannot believe how
fast these people improve. And that the other thing, like

(24:30):
Hope missing that two footer to lose the masters. I mean,
if he just set his right foot, put the club down, now,
look at the hole and set his feet. There's no
reason to ever think that this line's not right because
you line yourself up with your eyes. But if you
take practice strokes and come in, there is all types
of things that you go flying through your mind and

(24:52):
keep you unsettled instead of being settled in what you're
trying to do.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
I have noticed that putting on the practice putting green
is not the same routine and is generally more successful.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Yes, yeah, well there's a reason. There's a reason why
you're you're your is more successful. That's why you make
the second butt you try after you miss the first one,
because that's so much time this first one. You're with
it and you pull the other ball up. You don't
take nearly asmuns of the time, and you'll probably make
it again. The two words two words we don't we

(25:36):
do not want to use. The first is the word try.
We want you to feel it. Second word we don't
want to use is hit. I mean to me, if
you tell me I'm going to try to hit this
ball in the hole, that constant puts in my mind
the thought of putting a nail against a wall and
beating it with a hammer. Okay, I'm hitting that sucker

(25:56):
right into the wall, whereas to me, putting would be
like making a paint brush and making one stripe down
the wall with a paintbrush. I want to feel. I
want to feel the stroke. I don't want to hit it.
I want to feel the role. So we substitute roll
for hit, and we substitute feel for try, and it

(26:19):
makes a huge psychological difference.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah. And I also noticed in one part of the
book where you talked about how professionals hit through the
ball where amateurs hit at the ball.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh yeah, very definitely. I mean you want. I mean
you'll practice and practice, and everybody's practice swing is really
pretty good, especially if they're not a ball there, but
you put a ball there and all of a sudden
they focus on that ball. They might as well get
them an ax at the top of the swing, Whereas
in reality, you want to go through the ball, You
want to go go to a draw finish, go to

(26:54):
a fade finish. All of a sudden, the club went
through where the ball was without you thinking about it,
and as much more natural, and you'll get much more
you get a lot more power doing them.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
So explain to me a little further what you mean
by through the ball I'm picturing.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
I'm picturing that. Let's say it's the driver. I'm picturing
about the first twelve to sixteen inches through the ball
where that driver is gonna go. I mean, there's gonna
be no reaction to the ball. I'm powering this driver
right on through that area. In other words, it's not
at it, it's not hit down, it's you know, obviously
most people would realize the woods you're sweeping the ball

(27:30):
off rather than hitting down like you would be within
an iron. But both of them, the follow through is
highly important. How how important is why can't a quarterback
throw a football off his foot as good as one is?
They say he steps into it, or what's the most
important thing on the free throw? It's the follow through.
It's not our preparation before and how we take it back,

(27:52):
but it's how good. Our follow through is that makes
the thing have the correct line. So the follow through
is really really important in golf.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
M And you just use the word picture. And I
noticed during the throughout the book that you know, I mean,
you have a stellar resume, your your career has been
fantastic on the tour and Ryder Cup champion and Ryder
Cup Captain and Champions Tour, phenomenal, amazing, And I appreciate

(28:22):
your time talking to me about this, but you kept
talking about seeing and picture. You know what your swing is.
It like one of one of the lines that I
pulled from the book, it's not how you hit the shot,
it's how you use your mind to picture them.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, yep, it's to me, it's the difference between somebody
that hits one over in the trees and now you've
got a tree in front of you, at a big tree,
and so you're looking at the hall you're it's on
the left or right side, wherever it might be. The
tree tells you, Okay, I'm gonna go up over the

(29:00):
right side, or I'm going to go under the left,
or I'm gonna do this because of how the ball's
gonna roll the fair away and you picture the shot
and you hit it. Oh well, the same next day
you make him the same hole and drive it thirty
yards further dead down the middle. The pin could be
right in the middle of the green and your miss
is about to occur. Because you're so proud of this
fantastic t shot you hit that you don't give the

(29:23):
picturing element to what the ball, what you're going to
do to this ball. You did it really good when
you're behind the tree, and it forced you to do it.
But are you smart enough in picturing the middle side
of the game to be able to picture something when
there's no obvious trouble the pins in the middle. It's
the simple a shot. But in reality, you know, you

(29:44):
gotta think, Okay, do I leave it short? If I
don't make it, am I gonna leave it short or long?
You know, I love to watch people practice on a range.
So say we're in Texas and it's kind of a
cloudy day and fluffy white clouds going through the sky.
I mean, I'm trying to go over a cloud or
keep it under another one. I'm trying to do it
all these things picturing, because that then I've got it.
Most people go out to the rains. All they're doing

(30:04):
is hitting the ball, and as soon as the ball
struck they're reaching for the next ball, and they don't
even watch the ball roll out, when in reality, when
you practice, you should hit it and the ball goes
up in the air, you should be holding your finish
until the ball's coming it starts its downward flight. Then
you can cut in your club halfway and then once

(30:24):
the ball hits the ground and you can trol your
club and move on to the next shot. But you've
had four or five seconds to pick up information about
what that shot you just hit. Whereas most people, I mean,
how many, well do you watch it as soon as
they hit the ball and they don't like it, they're
reaching for the next ball, and that they don't learn

(30:46):
anything from the last one, and pretty soon here that's
a lot when you you'll go in cycles like the
ocean waves come in, you get it for a while
and then it leaves you. That's why you know when
you're out there practicing you do well in it. I
would move on to something else, but you know, there's
a lot to be said for the routines people used
to practice, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
But the routines that use for practice are not necessarily
the routine routines that use when they're on the course.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
There are. They almost never are. They almost never are,
because that's why my dad when he was taught me,
I mean, I never got the put with more than
two balls in the long game. He used to have
me hit five balls, little piles of five balls, let's
say with the nine iron, and then that's the nine er,
And he might be might have me hit a five iron,
might have me hit a four wood, might me have
me hit a wedge. But if he saw three shots

(31:37):
come out and they're all high draws, he would say,
let's see it, let's see a low fade, or let's
see something else to make me do the imagery work
to be able to picture the shot and feel it
of the shot I was going to hit, rather than
just one after another hitting the same shot. And we
can get really good doing that on the range, but
it ain't going to help you on the on the
golf course because the range generally is dead at your

(32:00):
first shot. Now you got a ball three inches above
your feet or below your feet, whatever it might be.
And all that practice you warmed up, but all that
practice didn't do you a whole heck of a lot
of good because you weren't picturing stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
And to you, that is the key is picturing what
the shot is before you take it.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Well before that, I mean you get out of your cart.
Most people will go to the closest side of the
tee to where the cart is because I know we're
all in fantastic physical shape. Most kind of go to
the short side instead of if the t is ten
yards wide, the optics on the left side looking down
the fairway are totally different than looking on the right

(32:44):
side of the tee. Every step you take the left
makes your optic go to the right. So consequently, did
the T cause call you to tee off on the
right side or left side? For starters? Okay, and how
do you want the ball? It's the ball going to
come You want to picture the line you want the
ball to end, but is going to come in with
a fade or a draw, all these different things that
come into it. And if you do it right and

(33:05):
you learn to do it, it just happens naturally. But
you almost never ever have a shot you're not comfortable
with hitting. Instead of the normal person gets up there
and they see the shot and they go, oh, yeah, okay,
I can carry it over that water. I can do this,
I can do that, but they don't picture. I mean,
I had a guy last summer. They got up on
a part three. There's a lake on the left. I'm

(33:26):
going to say it's one hundred and eighty yards, and
I knew right where this ball was going. He took
two or three really good practice swings, and everything got
up made of just a terrible swing at it. It
barely didn't get it, almost didn't get to the water.
I mean he had a maybe fifty yards something like that.
He said, they do me a favorite, hit me another ball,
and so he gets the ball tea that starts to

(33:46):
take practice and he said, no, I don't want to
practice swing. I said, I want you to stand behind
the ball and I want you to look at that pin.
That's where you're aiming. And then he said, yeah, I'm
aiming at the pin. I said, how do you see
it getting to that pin? He said, well, I'm an
aim It just left. I said, how am I just left?
He said, its full four or five feet. I said,
see that trap, that's about fifteen yards left of it.

(34:06):
I want you to aim right in the center of
that bunker. And because I'm picturing you're gonna fade it
that much, he hits a shot. He hit it. I'm
going in the air. I say, action, we've made a
hole in one. He said, though, and I said, well
you may have us now. He put it about two
and a half feet in the hole.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
I'm so glad you're finishing the story because in the
book you just ask I saw it. It was like
it stood out to me. I was screaming at the
book where you say, have you ever seen a hole
in one? He said no, and you and in the
book you say you're about to and then you don't
give the results.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
No, no, and he didn't exactly did I did that
on purpose? I mean, it's funny. And that happened in Chicago.
I had two inches in Chicago. One of my first
years on tour, I was doing a corporate outing and
I don't know why. I was on a little bitty
par three to start the Dave. This guy gets up
and it was all Carrie one hundred and twenty five
arts and I watched him swing and he was okay
but not great. Cold, you know, morning, and I said,

(35:07):
what are you hit and he said, I'm going to
hit a nine air. I said, why don't you hit
an eight? Depends right on the front of the green.
I said, you got a little bit over one twenty
five to the hall. He said, no, I can get
a nine there. I said, now watch you and he says, no,
I know I hit a nine. I said, I'll tell
you what I'll do. I said, you take you hit
an eight for me, and if you don't like it,
then I'll let you hit the nine, get a free shot.

(35:27):
He hold it. He hold it with the eight there
and I said, okay, now you want to try the
nine for me and see if you can do? Is
this is good? He was so excited, you know, But
that's again it's you know, people, I don't want to
just blindly spendions billions of hours hitting balls without you know,

(35:50):
jumping in. And that's why I was exciting to listen
to you say you've had a lot of the psychological
psychology type people out there that work on the middle
side of this game, because I promise you and I'm
dealing with a lot of pros and I'm talking about
in the top fifty in the world on the Men's
Tour in the top fifteen in the win on the
LPG eight, and you end up working with them in

(36:13):
their mental side. That's where they can make the biggest rides.
And if they can make the biggest strides there the
average you know, it really jumps for the for the normal,
you know, and a normal amateur doing that.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
I find it fascinating that so many of these young
guns that are coming up. You know, the people on
the tour seem to be younger and younger every year,
but they hit the ball a ton, but they don't
necessarily have the mental game or the mental capacity to
play that quality of golf, do they?

Speaker 3 (36:48):
No, I mean it's different. Mcelroyal, come on here once
in a while. I mean. Another girl I'm working with
is is Lydia Coe, which I started with her last
summer and I just laughed. She shows up here at
Redlands and I congratulators. She had played twelve pro tournaments
and she'd won three of them as a fifteen year
old amateur. And I'm coming for a lesson. I'm going

(37:09):
this out. I said, I'm not, but it certainly you're
not going to take me very long. And she's just
a delight. But you know, most of the people you get,
you know, they're not wired that way. It just takes
longer for them to be able to figure out. But
I'm here to tell you that the caddies today are

(37:30):
in better shape than the players were when I played.
I mean, I was working with McElroy last week down
in West Palm Beach and we started nine o'clock and
he got I had him bend down to line up
this putt to go through his routine because I'm in
at the other again, you cause you well can imagine

(37:50):
now I'm not necessarily into watching what he you know,
the mechanical aspect. I want to see his routine. Well,
he goes to bend down. He had a hell of
a time getting down. I said, what's the matter. He
looked at me, he says, oh, he said, this is
one of my training mornings. He said, I started five
forty five, so he had had two and a half
hours of lifting weights and doing all this stuff. And

(38:11):
then so we worked for two hours and go and
to eat lunch, and I don't know, it's like a
chicken wrap and the cottage cheese and fresh fruit. I mean,
you know, well I'm having a cheeseburger. You know, sees
I wonder why this kid's in better shape than I am,
you know, and they just I mean from the stretching

(38:32):
to the I mean, it's it's amazing how they treat
their body. I mean, in my day I'm a coach,
could I drink around a golf course. Now they're you know,
they're you know, they they they they treated like it's
a million dollar business, which is exactly what it is.
I mean when I played, I mean, you made a
lot of your money playing corporate outings. They're betting money

(38:53):
on the side because the purses weren't that big, and
these kids, it's well worth their time to invest in
a turn and invest in all these other things. And
you know, I'm lucky enough with a lot of people
who've invested in having a short game coach.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yes, yes, and apparently with a tremendous amount of success
when they when they come to Stockton Golf.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Well, it's been I tell you what for it's been
a hoot. I mean, started it heasy, and I can't
remember one thing after another, but I had rotator cuff
surgery in September nine, which basically is that that ended
my playing, although my swing is a heck a lot
better because I can't raise my left shoulder up anymore.
And within nine months I had the other shoulder done,
so I had both shoulders done, and we you know,

(39:36):
I wasn't gonna sit still, so you know, it started
with Michelle Lee briefly and then went to Michelson, and
then the phone never stopped ringing. I mean, I looked
here on the wall where I'm sitting, I'm looking at
the Grand Slam in four years, two by Michelson, two
by McElroy, and I got all four of the flags
from the four majors. Wow, and Ronnie and Junior and myself.

(39:56):
We have one hundred and twenty wins and counting worldwide
in four years. It's just, you know, it's it's mind
boggling to me. You know how much success and how
fast you can have it if you just give somebody
a mental picture. I mean, I could list the guys.
Michelson won. We worked with him Thursday and Friday, and

(40:17):
he won the Tour Championship the next week. Michelle Wee
we worked with her Thursday and Friday two weeks prior
to that, and she went to Solheim Cup. In Chicago,
and she had an unbelievable time. Adam Scott, who Mickleson
wanted me to help, thought he had the worst stroke
in the world, won the very next week after David
worked with him at the Players Championship using a short putter,

(40:38):
by the way, and Justin Rose, I mean David Start
helped him at Colonial. All he did was win two
out of three and if he hadn't blown Hartford, he
would have won three out of three. So it doesn't
take that long. It's not and we're in the easy part,
let's face it. I mean the short game. You're moving
the putter maybe a foot, so there's not at least
your hands are only going afoot. It's a very simple

(41:01):
thing to do, and you can be helping quite a
few people at one time because you're not getting immersed
in the long game.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
But it's not that simple, or they wouldn't be coming
to you and having such success. And these are people
who are at the very peak of the game.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Yeah, but they just had the wrong teacher to start with.
I mean, my dad in the forties, I mean he
learned from Alex Morrison, who was a brilliant teacher in
the thirties, and he taught Henry Piccard, who won the
Masters in thirty eight, won the PGA in thirty nine.
And I did not know who had taught my dad
until I was inducted into the California got all of fame,

(41:34):
I don't know, five years ago or something. And you
know the guy that I introduced was another tom self
was going to introduce me. He was another one of theirs.
Five guys my dad, taw All went on tour. I
was the only one that made it, but all five
of us went out. And he started talking about Alex Morrison. Well,
when I'm writing the first book with Matt Rudy, you know,

(41:57):
I'm subconscious cutting I. He started talking about Alex Morrison.
He said, well, yeah, he wrote a book. Well, my
dad never let me read GoF books, so I wouldn't
know one than another. But he had a book in
nineteen forty called Better Golf Without Practice, and it showed
a guy sitting in an armchair thinking about what he

(42:18):
wanted to do. He's sitting in a chair, no clubs
in his hand, nothing, you know. And so Matt Rudi
gets me an original copy of this book. But seventy
years prior to this us writing the Putting book in
seventy and I read the I look at the book.
The long game is worth about two percent. That's how
much has changed the short game. I'd say it's ninety

(42:41):
five percent viable. It explains why I use loft on
a putter, explains why I ford press, explains why my
left hands my direction hand. It explains why I put
the putter ahead of the ball when I addressed the ball.
All these different things that I learned in the late forties.
That you know, something I went sixty some years, never
never had change, never had well nineteen forty. This book's

(43:04):
out right. Tell me if there's something else that's been
devised for the stroke in seventy years. I mean, the
agronomy is better, okay, the grasses are much better, easier
to put their smoother, no matter, you know, the clubs themselves,
especially like the groove faces on the on the putters.
Now you can just unbelievable, you know, bigger grips if

(43:27):
you want it now, for softer feel with your hands,
all these things. But there's never been and there never
will be, a new stroke developed because it's too individualistic
and so for somebody for a teacher that says, Okay,
I'm gonna teach all my students to put this way.

(43:49):
I'm just gonna. I'm laughing. I mean, I was at
the match play this year and I had Castagno from Spain.
Gonzo he petted with the claw. I had Molinari, who's
putting conventional. I had Stephen Gallagher who came and he
just beaten McElroy a couple of months agoing to buy.

(44:11):
He was putting left hand low. And I had Kevin Stadler,
who was using the long putter. I got five putters,
I got five different types of strokes and everyone I'm successful.
So to me, that says, and that's why we're successful
is that we fit the people with what feels comfortable.

(44:34):
Inn I mean, I'm watching Gallagher. He shot sixty two
when he won and beat Macawy and third ground and
she sixty two made everything, made ten birdies, and I'm
watching him. He's cross handed, and I'm going I know
he wasn't cross handed here, So I go back in
my phone and I pick it up and no, here
he is putting conventional. So he came over U la open.

(44:56):
I guess it was la and no, it was at
Phoenix and so I'm there and I said to him,
I said, what are you doing? He said, it's unbelievable
because you explained the left hand led, and I just
I had much better feel of it with the left
hand being low. And I'm going, how cool was that?
I mean, that was really good. And well, you know
If and Fred, they're all different. I mean, one of

(45:18):
the biggest things. Usually I get the one eighty to
two hundred putters, you know, in the ranking. A few
years ago now, Matt Coocher came and he asked the
three of us. We were doing an exhibition down at
the Vintage, and he asked me if I'd look at
his game or we would look at his game, and
we said sure. I said, I don't understand why you
need to help you. All you did last year was

(45:38):
you were leading money and you won the Barclays and
you were fifth and putting, so there can't be that
much wrong except he putted left hand low, and I
know he flipped his hand, and so I asked him,
I said, what's your direction?

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Hand?

Speaker 3 (45:49):
He says left. I said, make me a one handed stroke. Well,
the left hand never broke down and so I said, okay,
now this is what you do. You're telling me your
left hands your direction hand, but you're flipping it. You're
just letting your right hand just flip this thing up.
I said, I don't understand that. Well, five days later
I samitely open. Now his putter's got three more degrees

(46:10):
a lot, and the putter is probably six inches longer.
And if stuff is left arm. By the next week,
the putter came out behind his left arm, you know,
and he's gone from two degrees a lot to eight
degrees because he's ford pressed his hand and in the
present styl of he uses now in what I'm trying
to reiterate is again, it's not my method, it's what

(46:31):
method makes you feel comfortable. And basically the parameters again
are we We don't care. They They asked me if
I think along putter or something should be banned and
all this stuff. He said, I don't care, you know,
in my own opinion, because basically, I want you to visualize.
No matter what your method is going to be, you
got to be able to see what you're doing. But

(46:52):
most people that do the mechanical method don't have a
metal method. That's worth of darn.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
So what do you think of the long putters.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
I'll be glad. I'll be glad when they ban it,
only because when I grew up, you know, Tiddley Winks
is probably more popular than golf. And we truly have
athletes now. Dustin Johnson McElroy is just a phenomenal physical specimen.
This Nicholas Cole Stark's another guy who worked with in Belgium,

(47:28):
is just unbelievable. They're athletes, and I just don't think
you should have an arm anchored to your body as
long as they want. I don't care if they use
a putter ten feet long, provided is not anchored to
a body part that's not moving. I can see where Coocher.
Probably a lot of people are gonna do like Coucher does,

(47:49):
because's on your arm, it's susceptible to you know, making mistakes.
But I personally just don't like the looks of the
one on the chest. I mean, I'm you gotta understand
where I came from. I came out of the when
they made a ruling for one person person. That's one
of the most tournaments temporarily on our tour. Sam Snead,
you know they outlawed his croquette because they look goofy. Well,

(48:13):
I mean that they got under that saying you can't
step across your line when your putts. And now, you know,
I think sites that will may come back. I would think,
I don't know, I mean, people are going to figure
out a way to do it. I just don't think
it would be anchored.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
And what about the equipment today. I mean, obviously, if
you grew up with Tiddley wings being more popular than golf,
the golf clubs were very different. Technology was not what
it is today. Has has all this technology change helped
the average golfer?

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Let alone the game?

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Well, let's say, I mean we start out, I always
use foot Joys shoes. Okay, now I'm with Nike my
foot Joys shoes, the leather shoes. I used to wear
a weight about two and a half pounds between the
two shoes. My Nike with the two shoes. Now that
I'd play in their less than eight ounces, yeah, I mean, yeah,
just I mean it's mind boggling what it is. And

(49:10):
the equipment, I mean each part. You know, Carson had
the first you know, the things which they had to
be great clubs because they looked so bad, yet they
felt so good to everybody. I mean, Carson was way
ahead of the game. So now they have, you know,
the composite heads. I mean, I was the third one,
I think, to start using metal woods when Taylor made

(49:32):
started with him, and I thought, well, I'm gonna use
them to they ban them, because I know they're gonna
ban them because somebody's gonna get killed. I mean, you're
never gonna You're never gonna see an aluminum baseball bat
in the big leagues, I'll promise you or else the pitcher,
they're gonna be pictured behind cages because the ball comes
off it's so fast. And I think this has tremendously
helped the average person because in the old days, I

(49:53):
mean we'd play the clubs, I mean, did pick up
weight if it was if it was raining, you literally
your club would get heavier. I mean it's you know,
it's not the same, but it's it. You know, we've
gained from you know, the technology to put people on
the moon, and they now have you know, they know
whether the bigger heads are better. They know they're finding
Now the loft makes sense because you're you can tell

(50:14):
from the track man that you're watching, you know how
much spin you're putting on the ball relative to your
flight pattern. I mean there's so much stuff. I mean,
it's in I think that's one reason why for the
average game. I just gave a women's clinic today for
the ladies here, and I just grabbed their different wedges,
and it's amazing to me. I think putter is highly important.

(50:36):
I think the sand wedges are important, and I think
drivers are very important as you especially clubs, And I
mean I'm grabbing these ladies wedges. Some are some of
them are very very light. Almost everybody in the grip
was either old and slick or you know, just didn't
feel right. And here's these ladies, some of them in

(50:57):
their sixties, a couple in their and I can hand
them my wedge. It's obviously too heavy for them, but
they can get out with my wedge better than theirs.
So there's there's for the people out there, and that's
why we need to have good professionals and have you
have it. Hopefully wherever you're at, have an opportunity to
get to a fitting center that the people understand and

(51:18):
aren't just trying to sell you clubs, but literally fit
something that and I don't want to get off the
first tea or on the first hold. I wanted something
to work on about fourteen or fifteen. When you get tired,
I want the club to still work for you.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Yeah, it's another thing that I try to advocate as
much as you know from what I've learned that buying
clubs off the rack is not to your advantage just
because your friend hits it well. But getting fitted, especially
with this technology today, getting fitted is the right way
to go.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yes, yeah, there's there's there's no question, and I do
not try to even think I'm an expert when it
comes to the club fitting. I am with putter. I mean,
I'm I'm here to tell you I've you know, I
was with Tailor Made for a long time and now
I've been with Nike for just almost a year now,

(52:10):
and I am really large into putting loft on a
putter because it lets you ford press your hands. And
I've had some of the most unbelievable statistics when somebody
measures how soon my ball stops bouncing and skidding, generally
it's with under an inch. My ball has got it's rolling,

(52:30):
It's already rolling because of the loft and being able
to ford press my hands, and yet I'm in the minority.
Most putters are made with two degrees one to two
degrees aloft. And they tell you, well, if you know,
if you you know, if you get more off that
you're gonna chip it. Well, not if you put your
hands ahead. And any of your listeners can go out
there and they can put there, they can put again

(52:53):
the stripe on the wall with a paint brush. What
do you want leading coming down the wall? Do you
want the brush leading or do you want the butter
and the handle of the handle of the brush leading?
You want to handle the brush because that way you control,
you control the field as you come down the wall.
And that's why you want your hands ahead. And if
you don't have loft time I played against Lee Elder

(53:14):
for years and he had negative loft, so he set
his hands back, very similar to what Zach Johnson does.
And again Zach Johnson will be a poster cow for
there's no right way to do this. You gotta fit
your eyes, you gotta you know, the speed you play's
got to fit you. Your clubs have to fit you. Uh,

(53:35):
And everybody's different, Yes we.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Are and that's why everybody's looking for an answer and
there isn't an answer. Clearly, that's what you're saying. No,
it's what makes you comfortable, exactly. It's it's about confidence, Yeah, exactly. Confidence.
So interesting. So I'm curious about something you were talking about.

(54:02):
Your dad was a teaching professional and you grew up
in that environment. Your two sons are teaching professionals, and
you right in the middle here you were the tour professional.
Is it was it harder for you growing up with
a teaching professional dad, or was it harder for your

(54:23):
children growing up growing up with a touring dad, tour
professional dad? And when I say harder, I'm saying growing
up in the Gulf world.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Well, I mean, first of all, my dad when he
came up, there was no tour. In fact, my right
here on the wall, my most favorite pictures my dad
standing with Walter Hagen. When Dad had an exhibition with
Walter Hagen in nineteen thirty seven. We are the first
all Americans of Southern cal in the same sport. We

(54:55):
both won the pack ten individual titles. But there are
I have changed. I mean World War Two, my dad
ran a bomb plan and when he got through in
nineteen forty four, he went into the sporting his business.
He still kept his PGA card and he would still
teach the kids around and you know all that the

(55:16):
five of us I said went out on tour. He
taught all that, but he's basically working in the sporting store.
My life was such that, you know, I wasn't kidding
about the Tidley Winks, but I mean I played basketball
and baseball till I broke my back when I was
fifteen and I became a I couldn't do the other sports.

(55:36):
So the only way I was going to be able
for to go to college to get a golf scholarship. Well,
Dad would let me you know, when work, I started
working on my game, saying, working on my game. The
most tournaments I ever played in a summer as a
junior was three, and that was seventeen. I was trying
to get my scholarship to go to Southern cal And
I played in the National Junior and I played in

(55:57):
the Hurst Championship and the Arrowhead which is my hometown tournament.
And it was the only three tournaments I got to play,
and they wanted me. I went to USC as a
pre law major. I was going to be a lawyer
because my grandfather, who lived in Tucson, was a mining attorney,
and that's what my parents wanted me to be. They
had no desire to push me toward golf, and a

(56:20):
year at SC convinced me that I was going to
be hard pressed the last four years, let alone seven,
And in the end, I wanted to try this, you know,
this type of lifestyle and see if I was good
at it. When you get to the kids. Junior played
on tour almost ten years, and I think he would
have made it. He was close. I mean two different

(56:41):
times we both led tournaments. I was leading the Tournament
Players Championship on the Champions Tour when he was leading
Hartford and he finished second third. Norman beat him the
one year. But Ronnie had always had a bad back
and never really played, and so consequently Ronnie's been teaching
over twenty years. But David played to ten years. And
it was real estate a few years ago. And then

(57:02):
when I went into this rotator cuff surgery and O nine,
Junior is looking around for what to do, and he'd
getting ready to go back to tour school, and I thought,
I thought Kathy, his mother was going to kill him,
and he started the teaching and David has always been
good with people, and so it's come full circle, but
from a whole different perspective. I mean, David's first child, Serena,

(57:24):
was a twin and complicated pregnancy. She was premature, born
just over two pounds ten ounces, and right now she's
a volleyball star at almost sixteen. So it nailed him
from being out on tour. And that's one thing about boy.
Kathy and I were lucky, is that we traveled the
entire time together. The kids had always come out during

(57:44):
the summertime. I would have said it was easier for
them to make it with me being a pro because he,
you know, while Junior is when he's playing the Mini Tour,
the Nike Tour, he was ready to come home. I said, no,
he's back East, and I said, I tell you what,
I'm gonna call you back. And what I did. I've
never got anybody else sins on AUGUSTA, but I got
Junior on. Junior played thirty six holes on August and

(58:05):
he won the very next week.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
So it's just it's it's the mental stuff that you
get into. I mean, it's I mean I'll tell you
a quick story.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Tell me stories.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
I don't have many quick stories. But Byron Nelson and
I are having lunch together and he literally told me
that in forty five, I asked him about when he
won eleven in a row, which is an unbelievable feet
and he actually won eighteen out of thirty five events entered,
so he won more than half the time. And I
asked him what he was thinking about. He got a
big smile, he said, said, basically, I found something before

(58:40):
I went to the West Coast swing that felt comfortable
to me, and that was the swing thought I used
for the entire year, the only swing thought. Well, I'm
here to tell you your listeners out there, most people
have they can't even remember the swing thoughts they had
the previous month.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
You know who had the previous hole.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Yeah, yeah, So because tips generally don't last very long,
they have a very short shelf life.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Are you surprised that that Ronnie went into golf instruction
as well, since he had struggling with his back and
couldn't play. Are you surprised that both of you boys
did this?

Speaker 3 (59:23):
Well? Not well? First of all, if I hadn't been
a pro goffer, Ronnie would have been something else. I
don't know. I mean, he basically got his pilot's license.
The reason he's good in teaching is that he was
a psychology major at the University of Redlands here, but
his was a different course and he went to see

(59:44):
he got mug sophomore year going back to Trinity Row
and he came out transfer to the u of R
and he actually had Division III, ended up leading the
nation and scoring two time All American here, And I mean,
just to it fit his you know, he could live
at home and we worked out really good. But Ronnie
can fix anything. I mean, he guy dives. Uh, he's

(01:00:09):
you know, like I say, he's got pilot's license and
all this stuff. So yeah, I am surprised he did
that because just because he could do anything, really and
just because golf was easy. The only hard part for
Ronnie is that Ronnie is left handed. And I explained
to Ronnie when I opened the closet door and showed
him the five thousand clubs sitting in the closet, none

(01:00:29):
of which were left handed, that if he was going
to play, he was gonna have to use to learn
to use these. So he's completely amidexterous, And you know,
I just I did not suspect that he would end
up being the golfer because I knew he was going
to find something else because everything he touches turns the gold.
He's good at almost anything.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Spoken like a proud papa. Yep, and I understand it completely.
Now you're listed is sixteenth on the America's list of
top instructors. You're a competitive person. Does that frustrate you
who are like, no, I want to be fifteen, I
want to get up to ten. I want to I

(01:01:11):
want to get into single digits or.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Do you I think I think I'm pushing my luck
because I'm a short game instructor that you know most
of those people, you know, this is how they make
a living. I mean, yeah, I guess I'm making a
very good living doing what I'm doing. But it's not
I'm not trying to build my name up or anything.

(01:01:35):
I last year, I think I was thirteenth two years ago.
Whatever it was, it was the largest largest first time
jump onto a survey that they've ever had of somebody
that had never been ranked before. So no, I'm very
proud that it's there. I'm glad you know, I'm like,
I'm number one in California and only because Jim Flick
passed away unfortunately. But you know that's I think that's more.

(01:01:58):
That's kind of incredible, just you know, being a short
game known as a short game instructor. I'm very prideful
of that. I mean, I think that's phenomenal. I have
no I'm not setting my goal, you know, Okay, I'm
gonna try to get in the top ten next year.
I can't change anything I'm doing. I couldn't handle more people.
I mean, I had a week here a month ago

(01:02:19):
where I had nyon Joy, I had Gallagher from Scotland.
I had Francesco Molinari from Italy. I had Cole Starts
in Belgium. I had Johnny Vegas from Venzuela. I told
my wife Cathy, I said, how cool the five days
has this been. I mean, let's face it. I mean

(01:02:40):
it keeps me young. I mean two weeks from now,
I'll be down in Augusta and I'll be walking in
out of the clubhouse, talking with guys and everything and
feeling not anywhere, feeling nearly as old as a seventy
two year old than I am and feeling relevant because
I know that I can pass on stuff that's going
to help them.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Oh that's fabulous. Feeling relevant is what a great way
to put it. That's that will make you want to
wake up in the morning.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Yeah, it's good. No, it it's great. And you never
know what's coming. And since I don't teach the same
thing to everybody, I mean, every everything is like it.
It's like an open book and I'm still learning. It's
it's neat.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
And clearly very passionate about what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
Yeah, there's a need for what we're doing. I think
we've opened up a lot of eyes and I you know,
and the success is there. I mean, nobody can argue
with what we've had, you know. And the best thing
I like about it is we don't have an approach
other than the fact it's a lot more metal than
most people realize. Hence this last book.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Well, and the book is called Own Your Game, How
to Use your Mind to play Winning Golf, And it's
going to be listed in in our golfers Mart on
our website. And as a matter of fact, I'll put
all three of your books available in our in our
store on our website at Golfsmarter dot com. The books
are Unconscious Putting and Unconscious along with Own Your Game,

(01:04:02):
the brand new one which I just loved. Why do
you call them unconscious putting and unconscious scoring?

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Well, I think it's just again, we don't want you
to try. I mean, you you do your signature and
you don't think about anything, and it's beautiful, pretty close
to the same every time. But now you try to
do it, and I promise you it's gonna feel terrible,
it's gonna look terrible, and you're not gonna enjoy the process.

(01:04:31):
So it's that's the whole purpose. I mean, we want
you just let it go. There's a whole I mean,
how many things do you think about when you're throwing
a dart at a bullseye? I mean you're thinking about
where your weight is, or you're thinking about where your
eyes are looking. Are you thinking about your left shoulder
going up or down or whatever? I mean, you're not
thinking of that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
But what about shooting a free throw? Yeah, well, I'm
sure that there's things that you're gonna be thinking about.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
Well, they're better concentrated on the front of the rim
and you're follow through. I mean, let's face at the
Mayor Brothers years ago in the eighties and the Olympics.
I was a little kid. I was not a little kid.
I'm watching them stand there outside the starting gee with
their eyes closed, and you can see him running the
course in their minds. You can see him going the

(01:05:19):
tight turns in long slooping, sloping turn to the left maybe,
and you can just see him going through this in
their mind and they step up and they do it,
just like the person that has this shot under the
trees that you've got to do something too, versus the
poor devil that stands in the middle of the fairway
and has no clue and I'm so proud of this
wonderful tea shot. He's just it and he doesn't realize

(01:05:42):
the disaster that's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Did you always use visualization even before it became, you know,
popular to do so or to talk about it. Did
you know that you were doing that before it was instructed?

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Well, just by the way my dad taught me, mm hmm.
You see that tree there, Okay, I want you to
hit it just under the top of that tree. Or
he'd have me go out and I'd do this with
my kids. I'd have him take every other club out
of their banks, so instead of having a you know, three,
four five six seventy eighty nine, they'd have a three
five seven nine. You'd be surprised how good you get
when you got like thirty yard increments or fifteen twenty

(01:06:21):
yard increments between two clubs. You have to learn how
to hit different shots.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
I loved one of the things that you also mentioned
in the book about taking two clubs with you to
the ball before you know, before your shot. Don't just say, oh,
it's one hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to
take out my six iron or whatever. Take take two clubs.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
Yeah. I mean I worked with one of the LPGA
girls yesterday and I know she's going to be better
of it. I said, what do you ask your caddy?
I mean, your caddy's standing there. You know, I'm assuming,
hopefully I know what you do because everybody else does it.
Let's say you think it's the same he says, one
hundred and fify yards, I'll say, you're gonna got a
seven arn kids a day it wedge. But let's pretend
my school, so we're hitting seven. Are you put your

(01:07:03):
hand on your seven you get it halfway out of
the bag and you turn to your caddy and say,
what do you think seven? Well, since you've already started
the club coming out of the bag, what's the caddy
gonna say? He knows it should be an eight, so
he'd say just yeah, nice and smooth, fine, okay, which
tells you then, hum, he doesn't think I have to
hit this very big, or he says, now go ahead,

(01:07:24):
just hit a good one. That'll be good, meaning you
better nail this thing, because I was thinking six iron.
So what I do is I go past it. And
the way my dad taught me was that every club
I have, it's between two clubs. So in fact, he
would do a drill. We'd go out on a course
and he'd make me hit two or three clubs to
one pin, and I'd have to hit different shots. And

(01:07:47):
I got the creativity to come that way. So consequently,
what I told the girl yesterday is basically I want you,
and I brought the caddy over. I said, she's not
going to ask you what you think seven aron. The
new question is going to be you're gonna tell her
of the yard? If you're gonna tell her one point
fifty she's gonna ask you, what two clubs do you think?
So you're either gonna say six seven or you're gonna

(01:08:10):
say seven eight. Now she's quietly thinking seven eight, okay.
He says, uh, six seven okay, perfect, it's a seven
are even though she thought seven eight and he thought
six seven. But it's already let her know that he's
thinking this whole plan slightly longer than she thinks. Now

(01:08:31):
you may both come up with the same club seven eight.
That's fine. It's up to her to decide or him
to decide when you hit the shot, how high it's
gonna go, where it's gonna land. You know, this sort
of thing, But it makes it. It's just another step
in the process of giving you a chance to hit
the correct shot at something right right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
So you told a great story about your interaction with
January when you're a young man on the tour bright,
But can you tell me what do you think is
the best advice you've ever received as a golfer, Not
as an instructor, not as a touring player, but as
a golfer. What's the best advice you've ever received?

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Probably the way I've lived my life. I told people
I've gone through life with basically not having anything bad
happen to me, although I've had some health problems, you know,
recently with my shoulders and stuff. But even breaking my
back was a good positive thing because it kept me
out of Vietnam. Now, they had five hundred some kids
went in here in nineteen sixty seven, and only two

(01:09:34):
of us out of five hundred were four f And consequently,
I would guess that my feelings were the fact that
I was never the most gifted physically, but I'm going
to beat you mentally, and so you never give up.
If seventy five or six was the best I could do,
it certainly made the sixty seven. I was going to

(01:09:55):
need to shoot the next day to make the cut
a much more viable approach rather than getting all mad
and huffy about it because he just you know. It's
like the two things with Rory, the one I alluded
to where he won the Open, where I basically had him.
He was monitoring how he played the secondman one, which
is his PGA at Kiowa, where I saw in the

(01:10:17):
week before, and he had a terrible year so far.
He'd been up and down. His girlfriend, who's now a
fiance was an Aki, the tennis player. Uh me, he
just he wasn't consistent. He missed, he hadn't defended his
US opened very well at Olympic Club in San Francisco.
He missed and cuts me as we were leaving Akron
the week before, I'm leaving to go play Minnesota, and

(01:10:38):
he's so I'm getting on Wednesday, and I said, I
want you to do me a favor. And he looks
right at me, which he always does, and I said
to him, I said, you know, I am getting really
tired of turning on a TV and telling whether you
burdy or bowie the last hole. And I don't know
why you're giving these people, your opponents, an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
To get you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
I said, you just you just have to, uh you
got to forget the bad shots, and he did. I
mean literally, he won the PGA QUBA by eight shots.
He won both these majors by eight but it was
it was kind of neat from the fact that he
shot seventy six in the second round. Seventy six is

(01:11:19):
still one by eight eight. Yeah, So I mean there's
you know, there's again. I'll go back and back to that,
but that's basically I guess if he asked my blessing.
I learned one of the cutest things for me. I
was fishing in Seattle and this older gentleman. I went
out on this boat with him. He had an old boat,
had both kids with me. I'd been going for years

(01:11:40):
and these fancy cabin cruiser and couldn't catch a salmon.
This guy caught five in the first hour fishing this thing,
and he's got the lure's name. It's really cute. So
I left the kids overnight. I went to Plague, went back,
played the pro am, came back out where in the
boat and his name was Mike Hunt. And he turned
to me and he says, how old do you think
I am. I'm looking at him. He's Norwegian, big hands.

(01:12:01):
I said, I don't know, Mike. You got to be
sixty eight or nine. Somebody says, yeah, I'm seventy nine.
Said I don't look at do And I said no.
He says, you know why, I said no, not exactly.
He said, if God didn't count, the day's just spent fishing.
And I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking and because he
is getting toward, you know, September is getting toward the
end of the year, you're starting to lose patience. It's

(01:12:23):
not quite heading season. It was like a twilight zone
for me. And I went out to play an ever
at this tournament, and if I hadn't invited Bobby Cole,
I would have won it. I finished second, but I
spent the entire four days thinking about how God didn't
count the days I spent golfing, and I couldn't believe
how relaxed that made me instead of getting all tensed

(01:12:45):
up and everything else. You know, so I'm always finding
stuff like that. Well, Fred, I've got to be running here.
This has been an enjoyable time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Oh Davey, thank you for saying that, because it's been
amazing for me too. I really enjoyed speaking to you
and wish you best of luck in the world. And
let everyone know it's Stockton Goolf dot com if you
want to get lessons with Dave or either of his sons,
and the book Own Your Game by Dave Stockton and
the other two books Unconscious Putting, Unconscious Scoring. Dave, thank

(01:13:14):
you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
Okay, good Bred, Let's do it again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Okay, I'll hold you to that one

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Okay, you got it.

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