October 21, 2025 • 52 mins
GS#1022 This week we speak to Dr. Jo Lukins about her most recent book 'The Elite'. She shares insights on the mental strategies that elite athletes use to succeed. Dr. Lukins also explores the unique mental challenges faced by golfers and the significance of habits, nutrition, and sleep in achieving peak performance. She emphasizes the importance of mindset, the role of failure in learning, and how gratitude can enhance performance.
This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Please visit indeed.com/GOLFSMARTER and get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT. Terms and conditions apply.
This episode is sponsored by HIMS. Start your free online visit today HIMS.com/golfsmarter and received personalized ED treatment options. This episode is brought to you by Warby Parker with over 300+ locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbypaker.com/golfsmarter right now to try on any pair virtually!
If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com
This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Please visit indeed.com/GOLFSMARTER and get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT. Terms and conditions apply.
This episode is sponsored by HIMS. Start your free online visit today HIMS.com/golfsmarter and received personalized ED treatment options. This episode is brought to you by Warby Parker with over 300+ locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbypaker.com/golfsmarter right now to try on any pair virtually!
If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi. I'm Lisa from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I play
at Airport National Golf Course.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to golf Smiter.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi. This is Mark Mason from Wahawa, South Carolina. I
played my golf at o'conny Country Club and this is
Golf Smarter Episode one twenty two.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Here's the extra little bit of bonus to those of
us that are athletes. Grateful athletes perform better, so we're
actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhandser that gets us
closer to success. So if you have two golfers who
are similar in levels of ability, but one of them
walks through last with a lens of gratitude and says,
(00:41):
isn't it wonderful that I get to play on this course?
How fortunate am I? People often say me, why do
you think gratitude is performance and hancster and I think
one of the reasons is you cannot be grateful and
complain at the same time, Like those two things do
not go hand in hand, getting on what I call
the complaint train. My shots are terrible today and I
can't believe that it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter
(01:02):
than I thought, and people in front are too slow,
and there's people going too quickly behind us, and all
that sort of stuff that already sounds like the sort
of person I don't really want to spend a couple
of hours with. But it also doesn't put you in
a mindset that sets you up to being open and
created and curious, which we know of those things that
go help us in terms of performance. When we are grateful,
(01:23):
it's almost like an internal little sigh where we relax.
Complaining and winging is tense. Gratitude is an absolute winner
for us in terms of performance enhancement.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The practices of elite athletes that will help all amateur golfers.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
With doctor Joe Lucas, this is golf s Murder, sharing stories,
tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
lower your score and raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Here's your host, Fred Green.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Welcome to the Golf Murder Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Joe Ah, Hi, Fred, good to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's great to be with you. We've had doctor Joe
on many times in this show, but it was doctor
Joe parent It's great. It's great to have doctor Joe.
Luken's on. A woman who has a really good book
called The elite think like an athlete, succeed like a champion.
(02:25):
I am fascinated and I want to go real deep
with this. I think it's a great topic, especially for
the golf Smarter audience.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, thank you, Fred, looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So, you know, elite athletes have this routine. I guess
that it would be called that would be prepare, train, compete, Prepare, train, compete,
and it just goes on. And that is the cycle
that they're in, right, And how did you get to
(02:58):
that point under stid where you're going.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
With the book? Yeah, So the book's come of about
after a number of years of working in the area.
Like you said, it's that Prepare, Train, compete. And then
the extra element that I like to put in with
that is part of that preparation is to learn from
the competition, you know. So my two favorite reminders for athletes, coaches, teams,
(03:22):
you know, whomever I might be working with, is to
always remember that success leaves clues. So when we have
been successful in our performance, as successful in our practice,
you know that hasn't come about by accident. So there's
the little clues that sit in behind that. So understanding
the clues so we can rinse and repeat them, and then,
of course, when things don't quite great, a plan, which
(03:42):
is also part of what it is in golf and
in other sports as well. It's understanding that there's always
a lesson on offers, so if we're wise, we'll stop, plause,
learn the lesson, and then hopefully we can we can
improve from that. So I guess Elite was the first
book that I wrote, and it really was design. I
(04:03):
guess it was a bit of a reflection piece for
me in some ways. You know, it's what if I
learned from working with the elite athletes and performers that
I've worked in throughout my career, because I work in
a brained domains and sports in my country, and so
it's really been about what have I learned, and then
what are those lessons that we can translate for anyone,
(04:24):
whatever their discipline might be. And you know, even for
the non athletes out there. You know, I know that
you don't need to be an elite athlete to think
like one, So we can translate some of those lessons
and that's certainly some of the things I get to
do in the work that I do.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Well. I'm glad that you said, you don't have to
be the elite athlete to think like one, And I
think that's part of what golf smurder has always been about,
is how to fine tune our mental approach to the
game and our emotional approach to the game so that
we don't have to just focus on our mechanics.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah. I would agree with that because I think that,
you know, when we approach our sport in a way
that is curious and we're open to learning, you know,
it really sets us up. I mean, I think it's essentially,
you know, there's probably a lot of goals that we
set for ourselves, and particularly within golf, there's lots of
things that people would be working on and wanting to
achieve and to attain. But if you can walk away
(05:18):
from it feeling like you've had some success in particular areas,
it's just very satisfying. And I guess that's what Keys is.
Going back to play again.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Tell me your background on how you got to this
and what made you study athletes in this way.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, so you would think that being a high performance
psychology expert, that was all part of a cunning plan,
but it turns out that it wasn't it. Actually I
got here by accident. To be honest, I as a
young high school student, I thought I was joining the
police force. So you might have picked up the audience
might have picked up for my accent that I'm Australian,
Australian based and as a young high see I don't
(05:57):
think my accident accent is that pronounced, but anyway, I'm
sure it is.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It is.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It is, okay, I'll try not to be too strine
with it then, so we no, No, it's okay. It
can be a little harsh with our sounds sometimes the Aussies.
So I started, I thought I was going to join
the police force, and so my parents used to take
me to the information nights down at the police Academy
near where I grew up. I if, for those who
are familiar with Australia, if you look sort of top
(06:23):
right hand corner, that's where I'm located there, just off
the barrier reef, which is a nice part of the
world to be living. And so yes, Mum and I
would go down to the police Academy would get information
on how I was going to join the police force.
When I finally finished high school and in my grade
twelve year, my final year of high school. As I
was walking across the campus a police officer was walking
(06:44):
in the opposite direction and he just stopped me mid
stride and he said to me, what are you doing here?
And I said, I'm coming to join the police force.
And he looked at me and he said, well, what
degree are you going to do? And in Australia you
don't need a degree to join the police force, and
you certainly didn't back in the nineteen eighties. I was
looking to do it and I said, oh, I didn't
know that I need to. What do I need to do?
And he said, we'll just do something to do with people,
(07:06):
and I said okay. And so, being a good child
of the eighties, I went back to my school. I
went back to the guidance officer and said, you know,
I need to do a degree. It's got to be
something to do with people. He said, what about psychology.
I said that sounds good, and so I went and
did a psychology degree. And I think probably for the
good people of Queensland where I live. I don't know
what sort of police officer I would have been, but
(07:27):
I studied psychology. By the end of my fourth year,
I'd found my love of sports psychology particularly and Australia,
you know, like it is in the US, is very
much a sports loving country, so there's lots of opportunity.
There's national teams within the region that I live in.
And now that I've spent sort of over three decades
(07:48):
working in sports psychology, you know, I travel a lot
around Australia. I have athletes from all different kinds of sports,
teen sports, individual sports, and so forth. So that's where
that all came about. And then about twenty five, twenty
seven years deep into my work, I thought, you know what,
and someone once said to me, if there's advice you're
continually giving out, then think about putting it into a book,
(08:11):
because that's a way to reach more people. So that's
how The Elite came about. And I did a little
bit of research into how to write a book and
how to get that out there. Turns out that's a
whole other adventure, and so The Elite was written and
I'm continuing to refine that process. So I'm actually just
about to release book number five.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So wow.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But the Elite is it's the one that I talk
about the most. It's the one that has the broaders readership.
And in addition to my work in sport, I also
work in the Australian Defense Force. So many of our
incredible defense members in Australia have have read The Elite
and we include that as part of the education pieces
(08:51):
that I deliver into the Defense Force as well.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Fabulous fascinating background and what bright took you from police
work and training and you know, getting that psychology, how
did you get to sports? So I will opened those doors.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, So there was my super In our fourth year
of our degree, we I was given the opportunity to
do an honors program and in that you need to
do a set body of work and some set research.
And it was actually my supervisor who I went to.
She was someone who taught me through my degree. I
really gravitated to her. I liked the way she thinked,
(09:31):
I liked the way she challenged me. And her particular
area of interest was child psychology. And so whilst I
didn't specifically want to go into child psychology per se,
we were talking one day and she said, you know,
you could always do it in an area that interests you,
that involves children. So my very first research was with
It was probably the bravest research I've done in my
(09:53):
career because I worked with eight year olds and ten
year olds. So every one who's ever spent time with
eight year olds and ten year olds, I've raised two
of them. But you know, I love children of that
age because they really don't have the filter that many
of us learn as adults. So I looked at I
compared children's levels of self esteem, and depending upon their
(10:13):
self esteem, whether their self esteem was higher or lower,
whether that had an influence then on how they would
explain their relative successes and disappointments in sport. And it's
probably no surprise to the audience listening that those children
who had higher levels of self esteem would tend to
attribute their successes in a more complimentary way to themselves.
(10:34):
They'd think it was because of their ability. They'd see
it because of their effort, whereas children with lower self
esteem would say, you know, well, I was just lucky
that day and competition wasn't very hard, and those sorts
of things. So I was really curious about how children
explain the world. I've always been interested in those levels
of attributions, and that's always been an area of interest
for me, and then that developed further from there and that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Took you to professional athletes.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It did.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So I live in the re of Australia, as I said,
sort of top right hand corner of Australia, and at
that point in time, not long after I graduated, I'm
a big fan of I don't know if you remember Fred.
In nineteen ninety six, Gwyneth Paltrow was in a movie
it was Sliding Doors, and the Sliding Doors movie was
all about I think in that movie it was whether
or not she took a subway, you know, she got
the subway or she missed the subway. In the movie
(11:20):
sort of split down the middle and it showed her life.
And the Sliding Doors moment for me, apart from the
police officer stopping me. You know, six or seven years earlier,
was that a new football team came to our region
and they didn't have a sports psychologist there. There wasn't
actually anyone working in sports psychology in our town. And
with all the bravado and gusto that you might have
(11:40):
at the age of I think I was about twenty
five at the time, of course, I thought I could
do it, so I I you know, fortune favors the Brave,
I guess, and so I ended up speaking with the
head coach there and was appointed and stayed with that
team for twenty six years.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I actually have been to Brisbane in the early to
mid nineties. I was there with the National Basketball Association.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
They oh, there you got.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
They had a fan event and they wanted me to
come along to do my thing over there.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So oh fantastic it was, and I loved it.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I've been begging my wife, come on, come with me,
Let's go back to Australia. Playah A.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I grew up just north of Brisbane, so okay, yeah,
I work with Australian Busball Association, so there you go.
Lots of connections, lots of connections.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
That's great in the elite. The one of the things
that really stood out to me, And I wish I
would have known this as a young person, not just
through sport, but in life as the failure the way
you describe it here, failure is not the opposite of success,
(12:55):
but an integral part of it. I wish I would
have realized that not succeeding isn't necessarily failure. It just
breeds experience and it is what gets you to success.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Absolutely, it's the pathway for learning. I think, you know, like,
of course, we would all prefer to have success come
away first time around. That would be you know, that
would be wonderful if that's what happened, But I guess
that's not the reality of the world that we live in.
And you know, and golf is certainly one of those
sports that there is so many opportunities to learn along
(13:31):
the way and to gain wisdom whilst you're playing and
whilst you're practicing. So I think it's I think, as
you say, it's broader than what we do within our sport.
It's how we approach life and when we understand that
when the disappointments come, it isn't so much what happens
to us. It is about what we do with it.
And so when we see those disappointments, and it's okay,
(13:53):
if you know, if it hurts for a little bit,
if we kind of feel like we're a bit bruised
from the experience, so give us seals permission to take
a deep breath, you know, give ourselves permission to be
a bit annoyed by it, if that's what we feel
that we are. But what we need to do, then,
is to put ourselves on a pathway with what I
would call a performance mindset rather than fixed mindset. That
(14:14):
you know, failures, disappointments, all those sorts of things. Failures
is a word I don't typically try to use that
too often for myself, but I do recognize the challenges
and the disappointments when things don't go my way, and
then go, well, here's life giving me a chance to
learn something here. I wonder what the lesson is.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What separated golfers from other athletes From your research.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I think golf is a sport. I mean, I think,
of all, there's so many sports that have such a
strong mental component, but I think golf is for me.
And I guess my experience with golf goes back to
ramp at the time I thought I was joining the
police force. Was I did in Australia. The subjects often
referred to as PE or physical education, and we did
a golf unit in my grade twelve years so that's
(15:00):
when I first was introduced to golf for myself. But
I've grown up with my father's played golf all of
his life, so we're a golfing family. I have two sons,
you know, they play golf, and I play a little
bit of golf as well, and I am very much
know every expert was once a beginner, and I am
very much consider myself in the beginner ranks. But that's okay,
(15:21):
that's what it is with golf. But I think the
thing with golf is because it's you know, it's a
sport where you play it over an extended period of time.
So over the course of a couple of hours each
time that you go out to play, you know, you
have a lot of time to think, you have a
lot of time to be inside your head, if we
(15:42):
want to use that sort of expression. And so it's
such a great opportunity to be mindful about the way
we choose to speak to ourselves because there's no doubt
that there's that relationship between what we say and how
we feel, and how we feel is really what drives
what we do. You know, So if something doesn't go
to plan on the course, you know you're driving and
(16:04):
it's not you know you're driving. You know you've had
a couple of instances, over a couple of holes where
it hasn't quite been what you've wanted. If your self
talk is, for example, oh my driving is no good today,
Then it sounds like you've actually set the scene for
what's going to happen in the future in addition to
what's happened in the past. So it's that challenge, isn't it,
of going well? Okay? So it's true that for the
(16:25):
last three holes that hasn't been the way that I've
wanted it to. But I've still got six holes in
front of me? So how can I think about this
in a little more helpful way? And I think one
of the phrases that I guess, the framework that I've
found that's particularly useful for a lot of the athletes
that I work with, but also for myself is to
look at it through the lens of what's going to
(16:46):
be helpful right now. So you know, when I've worked
with golfers, it's really been about, you know, in light
of where I'm at right now, in light of what's
been happening, about how I'm feeling, what's the most helpful
approach for me moving forward? And if you can move
your self closer to the helpful, then you know you're
less likely to go down a path where you're maybe
(17:06):
negative or self deprecating in a way that doesn't get
you closer to the goals or the success that you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And what can be helpful right now? I mean I
frequently have said that the history has nothing to do
with golf. When people start, oh boy, I can't drive today,
I'm not it's not working. It's like, well, that has
nothing to do with your next shot. And if you
place that in your head and start telling yourself that,
(17:34):
then you're doomed. So just go just close your eyes, relax,
go through your your preshot or whatever it is that
you need to do, but focus on what's next. Stop
you know, eating yourself up.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Basically exactly. And I would completely concur with that, Fred,
because you're right, that self fulfilling prophecy that we create
for ourselves. If we say my putting's no good today,
or you know, I can't get shot in or whatever
that might be, then don't be surprised when you replicate it.
Because of course, one of the other things we know
is that what we tell ourselves as humans, For many
(18:09):
of us, we do think in visuals, so we are
more likely to you know, if we talk to ourselves
in a way that's less helpful in golf, And I
don't even want to put the negative thoughts in anyone's
mind as I'm talking through this, So I typically go
to a different sport for this example, if I may. So,
if you are a track hurdler, you know, and you're
lined up at the start of the race, it's not
(18:31):
going to be helpful for you to think, don't hit
the hurdles, don't hit the hurdles, because you actually get
that visual that image of the hurdles going down. What
you would be what's more helpful is to go, well,
you know, as I approach the hurdles, like clear the hurdles,
like clear the hurdles, like clear the hurdles. So the
same applies in golf. That as you said, it might
be about your preshop routine. It might be about a visualization.
(18:54):
There might be a cue word you say to yourself, well,
maybe you just simply exhale and you don't think about
any thing. You know, some performers that I work with,
you know, they like the verbal cues for themselves. Others
just say I don't actually want to think about anything.
I just want to feel my way through it. So
we all have to find our own pathway. But I
(19:15):
do think it's you tapped into the probably one of
the most important elements in sport, but particularly in golf,
it's that understanding as humans, we've got three dimensions of
time that we operate in, Like you said, our history,
what's happened, what's happened to everything right up to this moment,
what's happening in this current moment right now, and then
(19:36):
what does it look like in our future? And physically
we can only be in one of those spots, and
that's in the present because unless we've got a time machine,
which would be kind of cool, but we don't have one,
you know, So we can't go back to this morning,
we can't go ahead to the weekend, you know, whenever
it might be sometime in the future. So physically we
(19:57):
can only ever be in the present. But mentally time travelers.
Mentally you can take yourself to wherever you want to be.
Like you said, you could be thinking back to what
happened that on the first hole, or you could be
thinking about what's going to happen when you get to
the clubhouse or whatever it might be. But the challenge
for athletes, the challenge for golfers is to have their
(20:18):
head in the right place at the right time. And
to your point, you know, I would envisage that at
the moment of taking the shot, and please, this is
now your expertise, because you haven't brought me on here
for my golf expertise more than my mental expertise. But
my expectation would be around the time that you are
taking the shot, you know, your focus does become far
more narrowed. You may have gone into the past as
(20:40):
you were selecting your club. You may look into the
future as you survey the hole in front of you
and you pick up on the distance and the hazards
and the you know where you're hoping that the first
shot is going to go. But at the point where
you're actually taking the shot, my expectation would be that
your focus sort of narrows a little bit in terms
of time, and it's about being in the moment and
(21:02):
however you need to spend the time in that moment. So,
as I said, it could be through instruction to yourself,
it could be through an image, it could be through
a breath, whatever it might be. We've all got our
own strategies, but it's how we navigate past present and future.
That really helps to define then whether we've got our
head in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Regularly when I'm playing with someone in there or even myself,
don't hit the water, don't hit the water. Don't hit
the water. I always, you know, like chime in and say,
you know, the last three words you just said, hit
the water, hit the water, hit the water, and they're
like what oh yeaheah, yeah, don't even just focus somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Absolutely, And I think the good reminder there is is
that our brain struggles with the word don't. Your advice
is so wise there. It's almost like if you can
imagine those four words, it's written down on a page,
put a big line through the don't because your brain
doesn't hear it, you know. And if we go you know,
my go to example, which probably resonates well for you
at the moment, is I say, you know, don't think
(22:11):
about the Eiffel Tower, you know, and when we don't
think about the earful tower, boom, there it is, you know,
right there in front of us that we do think
in visuals and so you know, it's that extra little
bit of work that we need to do to tell ourselves. So, okay,
we know we don't want to hit it into the water,
So where do you want to hit it? You know?
And if it's down the fairway, down the fairway is helpful.
(22:35):
Three words not in the water is the unhelpful ones.
So it's and that translates across life, doesn't it. You know,
you have a three year old in your lund room
with a glass of water and you tell them not
to spill it, and then you wander way. You end
up with water all over your floor, you know. So
what you need to say is careful hands, you know.
So so, and that's when we're instructing others, but it's
(22:56):
also when we're talking to ourselves because when we have
a don't phrase in our mind, we've then got to
do all that extra work and you know, transfer it
back to what the actions are actually going.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
To look like exactly exactly. So the subtitle of the
subtitle of the Elite, think like an athlete, succeed like
a champion would be the subtitle of the Elite. But
the next one is the one that really got my attention.
That's ten things the elite do differently. Can we break
those down?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yes, yes we can. Please yes, and I mean, certainly
that's what I've done in the book is so, and
what I learned in my research about how do you
write a non fiction book is it seems that the
general model is that you write a twelve chapter book
with an introduction and a conclusion, and then you have
your ten chapters in the middle. So the ten chapters
in the middle, and that's where I've broken it down
(23:49):
into some of those key elements that my experience has
told me is that when athletes get some of these
things right and work, and they're all the work in progress,
you know, So it's not like you can work your
way through the list and just tick them all off.
Is that you know, for all of us, at whatever
age we are, we're generally a work in progress. We're
working on some things. There's always something to work on.
(24:10):
So those are certainly the ten key chapters there in
the elite are the key messages that I really wanted
to focus on in that first book that I wrote,
because what I wanted to be able to do is
translate some of the lessons of high performance so that
anyone can read it and hopefully it's a very comfortable
read for people to read. Or listen to the audio book,
however they might want to do it. But you know,
(24:31):
we've got those lessons there and we can dip into those,
spend a bit of time with them, and work on
our skill sets.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
But if it's a golf book, it's going to be eighteen.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Chapters, well yes, yes, I'd have to make smaller chapters.
So maybe the golf book that I write will actually
be eighteen Or as my son did the other day,
I think he was avoiding doing something some chores at home,
so he actually played thirty six so he had so
much time the first time around he went around again,
So that might be a thirty six chapter.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
All right, so let's start with I mean, I don't
really care on what order it is, but I'd love
to get to these ten things that elite athletes do
that we could learn from, not that we don't, but
you know, let's also put in perspective that most elite
athletes are young people, right, I mean, whether the Olympics
(25:26):
or professional sports, they're between eighteen and thirty years old,
and we're looking at them like their heroes or something.
But they've got a talent or they've you know, got
a work ethic that puts them in a different place
than most of us who have a work ethic for
our work, right, so we shouldn't try to compare or
(25:49):
look to those people as guides for our lives. But
with that said, what are let's let's break down the
ten things.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, So I think one of the first things that
I would say is, and it taps into what we've
been talking about, is about having a master plan for
your mindset. So it's it's understanding some of those things
we were talking about earlier that you can have a
very fixed mindset around how how it is that you think,
or you can be open and you can be curious
(26:19):
and interestingly, in the next book that I'm writing, I'm
talking a lot about curiosity, which which fits in really
nicely with that notion of having a little bit of
a master plan around your mindset. It's understanding that the
way that you think matters, if you know, which is
such a simple concept in some ways, but it makes
such an incredible difference. And having that curiosity being open
(26:41):
to ideas is that you know, what I've what I
find is that when I meet curious souls, and whether
that be defense personnel, whether that be elite athletes, whether
it be you know, really experienced coaches that I work
with and so forth. It's about having that openness, that curiosity,
that flexibility in terms of thinking about being open to
(27:04):
you know, so maybe maybe in my golf game, actually
my putting is actually probably the best bit of it.
But you know, so let's say my driving, My driving
is where there is the most room for improvement. So
how's that for a positive reframe? So let's just say
that's what that is for me. So exactly what I've
just done there, see how I've really tried to positively
reframe that. You know, it's not the strongest of my
(27:27):
of my skill set when it comes to golf. And
if I say to myself, well, I'm not good at driving,
then that sounds quite fixed and it sounds quite permanent,
and it doesn't sound particularly positive. But even just shifting
that thinking slightly, I'm not good at driving, yet it
recognizes that possibility for improvement. And so I think one
(27:49):
of one of the key things for us to have
is that notion of that particular mindset piece. And I
think that's what's that's what's really helpful for us to
to start that with the approach around around our actual mindset,
because we know that your attitude can be your greatest
or your greatest acquisition, or can be one of your
(28:11):
biggest barriers.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Absolutely, absolutely, and probably and again with golf, there's so
little time that you're actually playing golf, and so much
of the time is beating yourself up going over the
last shot or worrying about the next one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Absolutely, And it's challenging, isn't it Because for many people
who don't go down the elite pathway, which is the
majority of golfers, this is the fun stuff. This is like,
this is what you're choosing to do in your recreation time,
and it's the skill that you're choosing to build. So
we want to find those ways to find the enjoyment
in it rather than spending ninety percent of that time,
(28:56):
you know, being frustrated and annoyed and like you said,
beating ourselves up so that you can be really quite challenging.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Absolutely all right, Where are we go next with that?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I think the next one and I think this will
resonate with what you were talking earlier about in terms
of pre shot rituals and routine is habits. Now look
to be honest habit. When I go into a room
of people, and because I do lots of presenting, and
I say, and I know we're going to talk about
habits because I know how incredibly important they are. You know,
(29:29):
about forty percent of what most of us do every
single day is on auto pilot. They are the habits
that we have. If you think about brushing your teeth
this morning, and let's assume we all brushed our teeth
this morning, but your routine of brushing your teeth, what
it was today is probably what it was yesterday, is
probably what it will be in a week's time. You know,
how you know whether you stand at the base and
whether you walk around the house looking for things, how
(29:52):
you actually go through that particular behavior, how long you
stand therefore, how effective a job you do, all those things.
So we know that our habits are great because they
save us from having to think. You know, I didn't
have to think too much about whether or not the
decision to brush my teeth this morning because I do
it on autopilot. It's a habit that I have. But
by the same token, we've got to be careful because
(30:14):
habits are awful because they save us from having to think,
so particularly in golf, there is the opportunity to bring
in so many habits into the game itself, and as
you very wisely share with the listeners or you know,
however many so many episodes that you've been doing this
(30:34):
for now is it is about those habits that we
create for ourselves because they're the bits we don't have
to think about. And as we get more expert at something,
what we're typically doing is we're just creating more habits.
Because the more habits you have, the more automated you
can make some of those things, the less thinking you
have to give them. You know, if anyone can remember
back to when they first started playing golf and you think,
(30:57):
I mean, it's a cognitive sport as it is, you know,
like there's a lot of thinking involved in terms of
there's a lot of intricacies and a lot of technique
involved in doing it well. So when you're first starting,
you can feel like you're running one hundred instructions through
your head, which we know isn't necessarily helpful. But you know,
over time, some of those instructions are less necessary because
(31:17):
through routine, through repetition, but also through habit they've been created.
So habit acquisition is probably I think one of the
most important elements. It's not probably the most enticing of topics,
or people don't go, oh, I'm really excited to hear
about creating habits, but there's no doubt that in our
lives that becomes incredibly important. And then of course it
(31:41):
flows on to the other things that in some way
have nothing to do with golf, but actually have everything
to do with golf. Our sleep and nutrition, our hydration.
I live in a very warm climate, so our sun's
safety when we're out there playing golf and so forth.
So we know that all of our habits, you know,
our habits work about how that you know we're in
(32:02):
a stressful work environment, what habits have we created around that?
Or our family environment is that stressful? And then ho
dos that then flow on an impact? So I think
even though it's not the most meeting of topics or
maybe the most exciting ones, I would say that investing
some time in understanding habits and creating great habits from
(32:23):
yourself really does set up that foundation for playing great golf.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Joe, you're on the Golf Smarter podcast. So topics like sleep, nutrition, hydration,
some protection habits routines. Those are not rare to be
discussed on this show. And so I'm just guessing that
either the audience rolls their eyes at me or they
are in That's why they keep coming back to more,
(32:58):
because we talk about things like.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
This absolutely, and I think it's challenging, isn't it, Because
I know sometimes people wish there was a quick fix
or wish that there was some little gadget or something
that we can do. And absolutely, we've got lots of
different skills and strategies and things that we can learn.
But literally the low hanging fruit, the things that's easiest
(33:21):
to pick, the things that are easiest to potentially change,
other things that have the biggest factor, you know. So
I spend a lot of time with defense personnel but
also with athletes looking at the topic of sleep because
whilst you know, excise physiologists and other specialists can give
us lots of great information around sleep, we also know
(33:43):
that sleep is a psychological experience, you know. So sleep
sleep starts with a really big decision, And the really
big decision is will I go to bed right now?
You know, it might be nine o'clock, it might be
ten o'clock and so forth, and there we are sitting
on the couch going I could go to bed right now,
or hey, there's one more episode of the show that
(34:03):
I'm streaming or that I'm watching, and so forth, And
then that's the decision point. And you know it's easy,
Like you know, it's easy at that point in time
to go, you know, like we know people know the
better choice. You know, we know that we're better off
to get more sleep. And I can say that, like,
you know, we're in different time zone, so it's early
in the morning for me, So I could tell you
(34:25):
what a great idea it'll be for me to go
to bed early tonight. But when I get to tonight,
at the end of a long day, when I'm fatigued,
humans struggle. Even the wisest people won't make good decisions
when they're tired and their glucose is low. So if
we want the things that make I guess pack the
biggest punch, if we want to put it that way,
or the low hanging fruit as I sometimes like to
(34:47):
describe it, is that the biggest performance enhances we have,
or are those elements. It's what's our nutrition been? Am
I rested, when did I last do some physical activity?
You know, those elements become incredib important and once we've
got those in place, then we can then we can
work on all the other stuff. But you know, it's
so much harder when we're tired, Like try doing anything
(35:09):
we're tired. It's it's such a struggle. And the other element.
I work a lot with teenagers, you know, I sort
of around that sixteen seventeen year old age group as well.
And if there's one thing that I can share with
the listeners, and I know not maybe some people are
listening who are sixteen seventeen, but there's certainly there's plenty
of people listening who were sixteen or seventeen once. And
(35:31):
you know, if this piece of information helps you in
that decision making at the end of the day when
you're deciding whether or not to go to bed. There
was some research conducted a couple of years ago now
looking at teenage athletes, and that what that research particularly
looked at is that those athletes who averaged under seven
hours sleeper night increase their risk of injury over the
(35:52):
next twenty one months by seventy percent. So, you know,
as golfers One of the things we want to do
is we want to avoid our risk of injury. If
we want to lower our risk of injury, lots of
things you can do. You would have had lots of
experts over the years and lots of advice Fred that
you give around injury prevention for people. But one of
(36:13):
the biggest things you can do is go to bed,
don't be tired. You know, when we're fatigued, we increase
our risk of injury. And I know that that's not
the bright and shiny advice that sometimes people look for,
but sometimes it is that. You know, it's that stuff
that we know, and it's just such a great way
to set ourselves up. If you want to get closer
to your goals, whatever they might be, if you want
to get closer to higher performance, fulfilling those factors sleep, nutrition,
(36:39):
and fiscal activity are They're really powerful things that we
have at our disposal that we can do every single
day that will help us.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I am so guilty. I get I you know, after
my wife goes to sleep, I'm like, yeah, I'll be
there in a few minutes, and then I turn on
YouTube and it's hours later that I come to bed
and it's like every you know, it's like, oh, this
one's under ten minutes, I'll just watch this one. Yeah,
it's good. O. Wait, oh here's a six minute when
(37:10):
I can do that? Oh, fifteen minutes, that's way too long.
I can watch that video. And I spend hours on
YouTube when I should be going to sleep, and I
know I should be going to sleep, and it's like,
how did it become eleven thirty all of a sudden?
Why am I still here?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Absolutely? And part of that Fred, Part of that Fred
is you know you're making a choice. But part of it,
the other reason that makes it harder, it's a harder
choice is because you're tired. And when we're tied, like
to be honest, and I'm probably going to sound a
bit logical as i say this, but if I think
about my reality, if it's in the evening and I'm
sitting on my couch and I'm watching some TV, it
(37:48):
is so much harder to get up, turn off the lights,
put the cat out, shut the door, go and brush
my teeth. Climbing, you know, get into my pajamas, climb
into bed. That's so much work. I don't even have
to press next episode anymore on my remote because the
streaming channel I used just flipped straight into the next episode,
So no effort to get off the coat couch. But
getting up and going to bed is work. So I've
(38:11):
got one little handy hint that worked for has worked
for a number of people that I work with over
the years, is and most people. The other trap is
that most people have got their phone close by, so
let's use our phone for good rather than for less good.
And if I can, one suggestion that I found work
for some people is to set your alarm clock to
go to bed, so you know that life, all life
(38:34):
would be improved if you went. And I'll make it
up if you know that you'd be better off if
you were heading to bed at ten pm, then set
the alarm for ten pm. And when the alarm goes off,
and this is what I talk about. I talk about
habit stacking and how to do that. In chapter three
in the book, the tap was called success on Autopilot,
but it's really about when the alarm goes off, then
(38:55):
I go to bed. And I think the curiosity that
we were talking about from chapter two that if you
can do that and say, well, look, it's not that
I have to go to bed early forever. But let's
try it for a month and see how I go.
Let's treat myself like a little science experiment, and I'm
going to try one or two little changes. Please don't
(39:16):
try lots of changes, because it's way too much for
our brains, and our heads explode when we do things
like that. You know, I'm a very big fan that
little by little, a little will become a lot. So
you know, just making a small if you can. And
I remember a soldier I worked with who brought his
bedtime forward by about an hour and a half because
he was staying up close to midnight, and I think
(39:37):
I think he changed his bedtime to about ten. He
said his first week was not fun because his body
just couldn't adjust and it took a little while. But
then after that he was waking up without his alarm clock,
he was feeling like exercise in the morning, he'd pack
his lunch and go to work. He was saving money,
like all these flow on effects, all because as he
went to bed a bit earlier, So it could be
(39:59):
how so, I'd say, if you're not sure, if you're
a bit doubtful, maybe give it a little try and
see how you go.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
My wife is has got the skill that I wish
I could do, and that just she falls asleep while
we're watching TV right there on the couch. She'll just
fall asleep and I'll and then I'll watch for another
couple of hours and then I'll go get ready for
then I'll come out. Go Okay, it's time to go
to bed now, girls like she just just stumbles into
bed like.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Ah, that lucky. You keep power, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, definitely superpower. You got any more of you know,
we don't have to do all ten obviously we want
people to buy the book. But let's uh, let's let's
do one or two more.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Okay, So let's do uh. I think that one of
the other things that I've always understood to be true
is that part of what helps with success in terms
of apperforms. So let's let's go. I've got to to
in mind that we could do. First of all, in gratitude.
(41:03):
Gratitude is one of those things now, So gratitude get
spoken of a lot, and often gratitude is spoken about
because there is a considerable amount of evidence that tells
us that when we look at happiness in people lots
of things that can make us happy. But when we
look at the biggest predictors of happiness, the two biggest
(41:24):
predictors of happiness, ay, they're great, they're free, and they're
easily at our disposal. It's been grateful and it's helping
other people. Those are the two biggest things that we
can do that will just if you simply want to
let's even put the golf to one side for a moment,
but if you simply want to be happier in your life,
be grateful for the things that you have and be
grateful to the people around you. So we know that
for sure, and there's in Australia and I'm sure it's
(41:47):
similar in other places in the world. You know, gratitude
as an intervention, if you like, is actually taught in
the schools. It's part of we run what's called positive
education programs, the science what goes well, and so we're
trying to teach children that being grateful is a great
way to start your day, it's a great rape feel
good about yourself. And there's lots of evidence around how
(42:08):
that helps in sort of many mental health conditions and
so forth. We know it has an impact for people
with multi moderate depression. So gratitude is just a winner anyway,
just in terms of making us happier within our lies.
But here's the extra little bit of bonus to those
of us that are athletes or those of us work
with athletes. Is what we're seeing now in the research
(42:30):
is there is also evidence to support the idea that
grateful athletes, grateful coaches, grateful teams perform better. So we're
actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhancer. So it was
enough in the first place that it makes you happier,
but what it does is it gets us closer to success.
So if you have two golfers who are similar in
(42:53):
levels of ability, but one of them walks through life
with a lens of gratitude and says, you know, how
great that you know, isn't it wonderful that I get
to play on this course, that I have the time
to do it, that I have the resources to play, that,
you know, because golf is not the cheapest of sports.
You know that I'm financially in a way that I'm
able to do this and spend this time. How fortunate
(43:16):
am I? And I'm in this? And usually I don't
think I'll beat to too many golf courses where it's
not a pretty place to look around and so forth
as well. So how good is that? And if you
can play that mindset to someone who by defaults and
the way I people often say to me, why is that, Joe?
Why do you think gratitude is performance enhancer? And I
(43:37):
think there's probably a couple of reasons. But one of
the reasons is that, you know, have you ever met
a grateful winder or a grateful complainer? You haven't, as
it's very you cannot be great. There's not many things
that can't do coexist and do, but you cannot be
grateful and complain at the same time. Like those two
things do not go hand in hand. Try it now,
(44:00):
but I've never seen it. It's okay complaining and whinging,
getting on what I call the complain train. You know, well,
my shots are terrible today, and I can't believe that
it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter than I thought,
and you know, the greens are too short or they're
too long, and they're da da da da daha, and
you know, and people in front are too slow, and
(44:21):
there's people going quickly too quickly behind us and all
that sort of stuff. Well, that already sounds like the
sort of person I don't really want to spend a
couple of hours with. But it also doesn't put you
in a mindset that sets you up to being open
and creative and curious, which we know of those things
and go help us in terms of performance. So I
and I think physiologically it makes a difference too. When
(44:44):
we are grateful, it's a happy place, you know. It's
it's almost, like I say, it's almost like an internal
little sigh where we relax. Whereas if I'm not grateful,
if I am complaining and whinging, I'm going to exaggerate
it for those who are watching on the YouTube. But
if you imagine for those who are listening, I'm scrunching
up my shoulders, I'm furrowing my brow, I'm scrunching my hands. Like,
(45:06):
complaining and winging is tense. So my understanding of golf is,
you know, you're probably not going to say, well, Joe,
your next shot, you go to a really good job.
If you completely tense up through it, you're not going
to tell me that. So while we're thinking to get
you closer to being tense rather than being relaxed. So
gratitude is an absolute winner for us in terms of
performance enhancement.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Absolutely, and I think that's a performance enhancing drug that
is not in jeopardy of being banned very soon.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Absolutely. The thing is it's free. You can be listening
to this podcast and almost momentarily, you know, thinking about
the things that you're grateful for. You could be standing there,
you know, maybe you are waiting for your tea time
or whatever it is to start, and you could sit
there sort of you know, worrying about something you can't control,
(45:56):
like the speed of the people in front of you,
or you could go, well, this is a bit of
extra time on the calls, and how beautiful is this?
So that gratitude piece is really and yeah, I don't
think there's any research in it, but I'm very sure
that grateful people that are looking as well, so maybe
as that effect.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Oh that's that's awesome. And I wanted to just make
sure we cover part two of the two biggest predictors
of happiness and you and let's go to part two
on that.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, so part two on that is helping others. So
we do know that when we lean in literally to others.
When we do things to make lives for others better
or improved, or we assist them in some sort of way,
not only does that person get the benefit of us
about help and assistance, which is a great enough reason
to do it, but we also need to understand that
(46:45):
it flows back to us. It feels good to help others.
There's a little dope mein kick that comes with it,
and that fits in with one of the chapters in
the book, which was going to be the second point
that I was going to make. And that's why those
two go so well hand in hand, is because we
know that people matter. And you know, if we're looking
at this in terms of our success in golf, whatever
(47:06):
that might be, or our ability to perform well in it,
it is based on those people who are around you.
Maybe part of your bolfing success is because there's other
people in your life that helps carry the load at home. Say, say,
if you've got home commitments and maybe are partners at
home looking after people or animals or whatever it might be,
or doing something in the home that enables you then
go and play golf, maybe you then do that in
(47:27):
return for them so that they can spend their time
doing the thing that brings them joy. You know, how
you manage your relationships is really critical to your life.
And we know that when we're engaging in sporting endeavor,
we don't do it in a silo that when we
could talk to others about it. And in golf, you know,
we've always got friends who play as well and can
talk for hours at a time. I guess about golf
(47:49):
and the intricacies of it and how it all works,
but I guess human connection is important for us just
as humans. But when we're playing golf, it is one
of those pursuits that we can really, you know, get
that extra benefit and in terms of what that means
for us in terms of our mental health and our
well being, that connection with others doing a shared, hopefully
(48:10):
fun activity is something that's really beneficial for us. And
we know that's another part of what will keep us
coming back.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Amazing. That's fabulous. Please tell us the names of the
books that we should go find.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Thank you. So I would start with the Elite. So
the Elite is and it's written at a sort of
grade ten level, So you know, so fourteen fifty from
age fourteen fifteen is probably a time when you could
be reading the book. And the nice thing about The
Elite is we know that people learn and read and
(48:48):
consume information in different ways. So I've got it there
as paperback, as an ebook, and also as an audiobook,
and it is actually me I did Actually it was
the longest weekend of my life when I did it,
but I recorded the audiobook that is also that was
also a test of perseverance. So I've got the Elite.
Then in twenty twenty, I wrote a book called In
the Grandstand and that is a parent's survival guide for
(49:10):
teen sports, so that there's lots involved in sports parenting.
So that was actually you can probably guess the age
of my own children at the time that I wrote
that book. I also wrote an interactive journal which is
called The game Plan, and the game Plan goes through
the five predictors of high performance, and we've actually talked
about some of them on the episode today. And that
(49:32):
journal is designed as I think that works best as
the paperbacks then you can actually write in it. But
what I've also put in that is I've put I
think there's about twenty five QR codes in there that
link to videos explaining concepts, so it's an extra little
bit of individual creating. I guess through that. Last year,
I wrote a book specifically for athletes and performers called Belief,
(49:57):
and that's about building unshakable confidence. So I wrote a
book called Belief, and if I may show it hot
off the press is my new book, The Whistleblower. So
it is a mental toughness rule book for officials, umpires,
and referees. So motivated by the fact that I've worked
with a lot of referees and officials over the years,
(50:19):
because we do know that it's a mentally challenging and
tough area to be in. And also it's a little
bit of a project of the heart because both of
my sons are referees in their own sports, so that's
what they've gone down, and well both of them have
actually gone down in the elite pathway in refereeing and officiating.
(50:39):
So and look, I think a few people have read
it and said to me, this is actually for anyone, Joe,
and I said, I know, but I've specifically written it
for referees. So if you're not a referee, I want
to read it, you'll just have to translate it in
your head. But all the principles apply. And I think
that's the thing, isn't it, Fred That the mental side
of what it is to play golf applies across our lives.
(51:00):
So if we're working on our mental skills in our life,
it will translate across to what's happening for us in
golf as well, So it goes both ways.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, and tell us about how we can follow you
or your URL and social media.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Thank you. So if you can remember my name, you
can find me. So it's doctor Joe lukens Jo and
that's l u k i NS so I have that
and I go under that for all my socials. So
I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn Instagram. My children tell me I
have a fairly average TikTok following. Aparently I could be
(51:35):
better at that, So I just tell them every expert
was once a beginner, and I'm still a beginner.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
And certainly, in terms of finding the books, they're available
on all the usual platforms of books. So wherever you
like to consume your books, wherever you like to get
them from, maybe you've got a great indie bookstore nearby
that can get them in for you. If not, some
of the larger platforms can also find them for you.
So Fred, thank you for allowing me to share that
with the listeners.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience
and your insights with us. We really appreciate it and
it was a great conversation. I really learned a lot.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Thanks Grett, Thank you, Fred,
Hi. I'm Lisa from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I play
at Airport National Golf Course.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to golf Smiter.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi. This is Mark Mason from Wahawa, South Carolina. I
played my golf at o'conny Country Club and this is
Golf Smarter Episode one twenty two.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Here's the extra little bit of bonus to those of
us that are athletes. Grateful athletes perform better, so we're
actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhandser that gets us
closer to success. So if you have two golfers who
are similar in levels of ability, but one of them
walks through last with a lens of gratitude and says,
(00:41):
isn't it wonderful that I get to play on this course?
How fortunate am I? People often say me, why do
you think gratitude is performance and hancster and I think
one of the reasons is you cannot be grateful and
complain at the same time, Like those two things do
not go hand in hand, getting on what I call
the complaint train. My shots are terrible today and I
can't believe that it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter
(01:02):
than I thought, and people in front are too slow,
and there's people going too quickly behind us, and all
that sort of stuff that already sounds like the sort
of person I don't really want to spend a couple
of hours with. But it also doesn't put you in
a mindset that sets you up to being open and
created and curious, which we know of those things that
go help us in terms of performance. When we are grateful,
(01:23):
it's almost like an internal little sigh where we relax.
Complaining and winging is tense. Gratitude is an absolute winner
for us in terms of performance enhancement.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The practices of elite athletes that will help all amateur golfers.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
With doctor Joe Lucas, this is golf s Murder, sharing stories,
tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
lower your score and raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Here's your host, Fred Green.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Welcome to the Golf Murder Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Joe Ah, Hi, Fred, good to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's great to be with you. We've had doctor Joe
on many times in this show, but it was doctor
Joe parent It's great. It's great to have doctor Joe.
Luken's on. A woman who has a really good book
called The elite think like an athlete, succeed like a champion.
(02:25):
I am fascinated and I want to go real deep
with this. I think it's a great topic, especially for
the golf Smarter audience.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, thank you, Fred, looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So, you know, elite athletes have this routine. I guess
that it would be called that would be prepare, train, compete, Prepare, train, compete,
and it just goes on. And that is the cycle
that they're in, right, And how did you get to
(02:58):
that point under stid where you're going.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
With the book? Yeah, So the book's come of about
after a number of years of working in the area.
Like you said, it's that Prepare, Train, compete. And then
the extra element that I like to put in with
that is part of that preparation is to learn from
the competition, you know. So my two favorite reminders for athletes, coaches, teams,
(03:22):
you know, whomever I might be working with, is to
always remember that success leaves clues. So when we have
been successful in our performance, as successful in our practice,
you know that hasn't come about by accident. So there's
the little clues that sit in behind that. So understanding
the clues so we can rinse and repeat them, and then,
of course, when things don't quite great, a plan, which
(03:42):
is also part of what it is in golf and
in other sports as well. It's understanding that there's always
a lesson on offers, so if we're wise, we'll stop, plause,
learn the lesson, and then hopefully we can we can
improve from that. So I guess Elite was the first
book that I wrote, and it really was design. I
(04:03):
guess it was a bit of a reflection piece for
me in some ways. You know, it's what if I
learned from working with the elite athletes and performers that
I've worked in throughout my career, because I work in
a brained domains and sports in my country, and so
it's really been about what have I learned, and then
what are those lessons that we can translate for anyone,
(04:24):
whatever their discipline might be. And you know, even for
the non athletes out there. You know, I know that
you don't need to be an elite athlete to think
like one, So we can translate some of those lessons
and that's certainly some of the things I get to
do in the work that I do.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Well. I'm glad that you said, you don't have to
be the elite athlete to think like one, And I
think that's part of what golf smurder has always been about,
is how to fine tune our mental approach to the
game and our emotional approach to the game so that
we don't have to just focus on our mechanics.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah. I would agree with that because I think that,
you know, when we approach our sport in a way
that is curious and we're open to learning, you know,
it really sets us up. I mean, I think it's essentially,
you know, there's probably a lot of goals that we
set for ourselves, and particularly within golf, there's lots of
things that people would be working on and wanting to
achieve and to attain. But if you can walk away
(05:18):
from it feeling like you've had some success in particular areas,
it's just very satisfying. And I guess that's what Keys is.
Going back to play again.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Tell me your background on how you got to this
and what made you study athletes in this way.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, so you would think that being a high performance
psychology expert, that was all part of a cunning plan,
but it turns out that it wasn't it. Actually I
got here by accident. To be honest, I as a
young high school student, I thought I was joining the
police force. So you might have picked up the audience
might have picked up for my accent that I'm Australian,
Australian based and as a young high see I don't
(05:57):
think my accident accent is that pronounced, but anyway, I'm
sure it is.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It is.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It is, okay, I'll try not to be too strine
with it then, so we no, No, it's okay. It
can be a little harsh with our sounds sometimes the Aussies.
So I started, I thought I was going to join
the police force, and so my parents used to take
me to the information nights down at the police Academy
near where I grew up. I if, for those who
are familiar with Australia, if you look sort of top
(06:23):
right hand corner, that's where I'm located there, just off
the barrier reef, which is a nice part of the
world to be living. And so yes, Mum and I
would go down to the police Academy would get information
on how I was going to join the police force.
When I finally finished high school and in my grade
twelve year, my final year of high school. As I
was walking across the campus a police officer was walking
(06:44):
in the opposite direction and he just stopped me mid
stride and he said to me, what are you doing here?
And I said, I'm coming to join the police force.
And he looked at me and he said, well, what
degree are you going to do? And in Australia you
don't need a degree to join the police force, and
you certainly didn't back in the nineteen eighties. I was
looking to do it and I said, oh, I didn't
know that I need to. What do I need to do?
And he said, we'll just do something to do with people,
(07:06):
and I said okay. And so, being a good child
of the eighties, I went back to my school. I
went back to the guidance officer and said, you know,
I need to do a degree. It's got to be
something to do with people. He said, what about psychology.
I said that sounds good, and so I went and
did a psychology degree. And I think probably for the
good people of Queensland where I live. I don't know
what sort of police officer I would have been, but
(07:27):
I studied psychology. By the end of my fourth year,
I'd found my love of sports psychology particularly and Australia,
you know, like it is in the US, is very
much a sports loving country, so there's lots of opportunity.
There's national teams within the region that I live in.
And now that I've spent sort of over three decades
(07:48):
working in sports psychology, you know, I travel a lot
around Australia. I have athletes from all different kinds of sports,
teen sports, individual sports, and so forth. So that's where
that all came about. And then about twenty five, twenty
seven years deep into my work, I thought, you know what,
and someone once said to me, if there's advice you're
continually giving out, then think about putting it into a book,
(08:11):
because that's a way to reach more people. So that's
how The Elite came about. And I did a little
bit of research into how to write a book and
how to get that out there. Turns out that's a
whole other adventure, and so The Elite was written and
I'm continuing to refine that process. So I'm actually just
about to release book number five.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So wow.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But the Elite is it's the one that I talk
about the most. It's the one that has the broaders readership.
And in addition to my work in sport, I also
work in the Australian Defense Force. So many of our
incredible defense members in Australia have have read The Elite
and we include that as part of the education pieces
(08:51):
that I deliver into the Defense Force as well.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Fabulous fascinating background and what bright took you from police
work and training and you know, getting that psychology, how
did you get to sports? So I will opened those doors.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, So there was my super In our fourth year
of our degree, we I was given the opportunity to
do an honors program and in that you need to
do a set body of work and some set research.
And it was actually my supervisor who I went to.
She was someone who taught me through my degree. I
really gravitated to her. I liked the way she thinked,
(09:31):
I liked the way she challenged me. And her particular
area of interest was child psychology. And so whilst I
didn't specifically want to go into child psychology per se,
we were talking one day and she said, you know,
you could always do it in an area that interests you,
that involves children. So my very first research was with
It was probably the bravest research I've done in my
(09:53):
career because I worked with eight year olds and ten
year olds. So every one who's ever spent time with
eight year olds and ten year olds, I've raised two
of them. But you know, I love children of that
age because they really don't have the filter that many
of us learn as adults. So I looked at I
compared children's levels of self esteem, and depending upon their
(10:13):
self esteem, whether their self esteem was higher or lower,
whether that had an influence then on how they would
explain their relative successes and disappointments in sport. And it's
probably no surprise to the audience listening that those children
who had higher levels of self esteem would tend to
attribute their successes in a more complimentary way to themselves.
(10:34):
They'd think it was because of their ability. They'd see
it because of their effort, whereas children with lower self
esteem would say, you know, well, I was just lucky
that day and competition wasn't very hard, and those sorts
of things. So I was really curious about how children
explain the world. I've always been interested in those levels
of attributions, and that's always been an area of interest
for me, and then that developed further from there and that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Took you to professional athletes.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It did.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So I live in the re of Australia, as I said,
sort of top right hand corner of Australia, and at
that point in time, not long after I graduated, I'm
a big fan of I don't know if you remember Fred.
In nineteen ninety six, Gwyneth Paltrow was in a movie
it was Sliding Doors, and the Sliding Doors movie was
all about I think in that movie it was whether
or not she took a subway, you know, she got
the subway or she missed the subway. In the movie
(11:20):
sort of split down the middle and it showed her life.
And the Sliding Doors moment for me, apart from the
police officer stopping me. You know, six or seven years earlier,
was that a new football team came to our region
and they didn't have a sports psychologist there. There wasn't
actually anyone working in sports psychology in our town. And
with all the bravado and gusto that you might have
(11:40):
at the age of I think I was about twenty
five at the time, of course, I thought I could
do it, so I I you know, fortune favors the Brave,
I guess, and so I ended up speaking with the
head coach there and was appointed and stayed with that
team for twenty six years.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I actually have been to Brisbane in the early to
mid nineties. I was there with the National Basketball Association.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
They oh, there you got.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
They had a fan event and they wanted me to
come along to do my thing over there.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So oh fantastic it was, and I loved it.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I've been begging my wife, come on, come with me,
Let's go back to Australia. Playah A.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I grew up just north of Brisbane, so okay, yeah,
I work with Australian Busball Association, so there you go.
Lots of connections, lots of connections.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
That's great in the elite. The one of the things
that really stood out to me, And I wish I
would have known this as a young person, not just
through sport, but in life as the failure the way
you describe it here, failure is not the opposite of success,
(12:55):
but an integral part of it. I wish I would
have realized that not succeeding isn't necessarily failure. It just
breeds experience and it is what gets you to success.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Absolutely, it's the pathway for learning. I think, you know, like,
of course, we would all prefer to have success come
away first time around. That would be you know, that
would be wonderful if that's what happened, But I guess
that's not the reality of the world that we live in.
And you know, and golf is certainly one of those
sports that there is so many opportunities to learn along
(13:31):
the way and to gain wisdom whilst you're playing and
whilst you're practicing. So I think it's I think, as
you say, it's broader than what we do within our sport.
It's how we approach life and when we understand that
when the disappointments come, it isn't so much what happens
to us. It is about what we do with it.
And so when we see those disappointments, and it's okay,
(13:53):
if you know, if it hurts for a little bit,
if we kind of feel like we're a bit bruised
from the experience, so give us seals permission to take
a deep breath, you know, give ourselves permission to be
a bit annoyed by it, if that's what we feel
that we are. But what we need to do, then,
is to put ourselves on a pathway with what I
would call a performance mindset rather than fixed mindset. That
(14:14):
you know, failures, disappointments, all those sorts of things. Failures
is a word I don't typically try to use that
too often for myself, but I do recognize the challenges
and the disappointments when things don't go my way, and
then go, well, here's life giving me a chance to
learn something here. I wonder what the lesson is.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What separated golfers from other athletes From your research.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I think golf is a sport. I mean, I think,
of all, there's so many sports that have such a
strong mental component, but I think golf is for me.
And I guess my experience with golf goes back to
ramp at the time I thought I was joining the
police force. Was I did in Australia. The subjects often
referred to as PE or physical education, and we did
a golf unit in my grade twelve years so that's
(15:00):
when I first was introduced to golf for myself. But
I've grown up with my father's played golf all of
his life, so we're a golfing family. I have two sons,
you know, they play golf, and I play a little
bit of golf as well, and I am very much
know every expert was once a beginner, and I am
very much consider myself in the beginner ranks. But that's okay,
(15:21):
that's what it is with golf. But I think the
thing with golf is because it's you know, it's a
sport where you play it over an extended period of time.
So over the course of a couple of hours each
time that you go out to play, you know, you
have a lot of time to think, you have a
lot of time to be inside your head, if we
(15:42):
want to use that sort of expression. And so it's
such a great opportunity to be mindful about the way
we choose to speak to ourselves because there's no doubt
that there's that relationship between what we say and how
we feel, and how we feel is really what drives
what we do. You know, So if something doesn't go
to plan on the course, you know you're driving and
(16:04):
it's not you know you're driving. You know you've had
a couple of instances, over a couple of holes where
it hasn't quite been what you've wanted. If your self
talk is, for example, oh my driving is no good today,
Then it sounds like you've actually set the scene for
what's going to happen in the future in addition to
what's happened in the past. So it's that challenge, isn't it,
of going well? Okay? So it's true that for the
(16:25):
last three holes that hasn't been the way that I've
wanted it to. But I've still got six holes in
front of me? So how can I think about this
in a little more helpful way? And I think one
of the phrases that I guess, the framework that I've
found that's particularly useful for a lot of the athletes
that I work with, but also for myself is to
look at it through the lens of what's going to
(16:46):
be helpful right now. So you know, when I've worked
with golfers, it's really been about, you know, in light
of where I'm at right now, in light of what's
been happening, about how I'm feeling, what's the most helpful
approach for me moving forward? And if you can move
your self closer to the helpful, then you know you're
less likely to go down a path where you're maybe
(17:06):
negative or self deprecating in a way that doesn't get
you closer to the goals or the success that you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And what can be helpful right now? I mean I
frequently have said that the history has nothing to do
with golf. When people start, oh boy, I can't drive today,
I'm not it's not working. It's like, well, that has
nothing to do with your next shot. And if you
place that in your head and start telling yourself that,
(17:34):
then you're doomed. So just go just close your eyes, relax,
go through your your preshot or whatever it is that
you need to do, but focus on what's next. Stop
you know, eating yourself up.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Basically exactly. And I would completely concur with that, Fred,
because you're right, that self fulfilling prophecy that we create
for ourselves. If we say my putting's no good today,
or you know, I can't get shot in or whatever
that might be, then don't be surprised when you replicate it.
Because of course, one of the other things we know
is that what we tell ourselves as humans, For many
(18:09):
of us, we do think in visuals, so we are
more likely to you know, if we talk to ourselves
in a way that's less helpful in golf, And I
don't even want to put the negative thoughts in anyone's
mind as I'm talking through this, So I typically go
to a different sport for this example, if I may. So,
if you are a track hurdler, you know, and you're
lined up at the start of the race, it's not
(18:31):
going to be helpful for you to think, don't hit
the hurdles, don't hit the hurdles, because you actually get
that visual that image of the hurdles going down. What
you would be what's more helpful is to go, well,
you know, as I approach the hurdles, like clear the hurdles,
like clear the hurdles, like clear the hurdles. So the
same applies in golf. That as you said, it might
be about your preshop routine. It might be about a visualization.
(18:54):
There might be a cue word you say to yourself, well,
maybe you just simply exhale and you don't think about
any thing. You know, some performers that I work with,
you know, they like the verbal cues for themselves. Others
just say I don't actually want to think about anything.
I just want to feel my way through it. So
we all have to find our own pathway. But I
(19:15):
do think it's you tapped into the probably one of
the most important elements in sport, but particularly in golf,
it's that understanding as humans, we've got three dimensions of
time that we operate in, Like you said, our history,
what's happened, what's happened to everything right up to this moment,
what's happening in this current moment right now, and then
(19:36):
what does it look like in our future? And physically
we can only be in one of those spots, and
that's in the present because unless we've got a time machine,
which would be kind of cool, but we don't have one,
you know, So we can't go back to this morning,
we can't go ahead to the weekend, you know, whenever
it might be sometime in the future. So physically we
(19:57):
can only ever be in the present. But mentally time travelers.
Mentally you can take yourself to wherever you want to be.
Like you said, you could be thinking back to what
happened that on the first hole, or you could be
thinking about what's going to happen when you get to
the clubhouse or whatever it might be. But the challenge
for athletes, the challenge for golfers is to have their
(20:18):
head in the right place at the right time. And
to your point, you know, I would envisage that at
the moment of taking the shot, and please, this is
now your expertise, because you haven't brought me on here
for my golf expertise more than my mental expertise. But
my expectation would be around the time that you are
taking the shot, you know, your focus does become far
more narrowed. You may have gone into the past as
(20:40):
you were selecting your club. You may look into the
future as you survey the hole in front of you
and you pick up on the distance and the hazards
and the you know where you're hoping that the first
shot is going to go. But at the point where
you're actually taking the shot, my expectation would be that
your focus sort of narrows a little bit in terms
of time, and it's about being in the moment and
(21:02):
however you need to spend the time in that moment. So,
as I said, it could be through instruction to yourself,
it could be through an image, it could be through
a breath, whatever it might be. We've all got our
own strategies, but it's how we navigate past present and future.
That really helps to define then whether we've got our
head in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Regularly when I'm playing with someone in there or even myself,
don't hit the water, don't hit the water. Don't hit
the water. I always, you know, like chime in and say,
you know, the last three words you just said, hit
the water, hit the water, hit the water, and they're
like what oh yeaheah, yeah, don't even just focus somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Absolutely, And I think the good reminder there is is
that our brain struggles with the word don't. Your advice
is so wise there. It's almost like if you can
imagine those four words, it's written down on a page,
put a big line through the don't because your brain
doesn't hear it, you know. And if we go you know,
my go to example, which probably resonates well for you
at the moment, is I say, you know, don't think
(22:11):
about the Eiffel Tower, you know, and when we don't
think about the earful tower, boom, there it is, you know,
right there in front of us that we do think
in visuals and so you know, it's that extra little
bit of work that we need to do to tell ourselves. So, okay,
we know we don't want to hit it into the water,
So where do you want to hit it? You know?
And if it's down the fairway, down the fairway is helpful.
(22:35):
Three words not in the water is the unhelpful ones.
So it's and that translates across life, doesn't it. You know,
you have a three year old in your lund room
with a glass of water and you tell them not
to spill it, and then you wander way. You end
up with water all over your floor, you know. So
what you need to say is careful hands, you know.
So so, and that's when we're instructing others, but it's
(22:56):
also when we're talking to ourselves because when we have
a don't phrase in our mind, we've then got to
do all that extra work and you know, transfer it
back to what the actions are actually going.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
To look like exactly exactly. So the subtitle of the
subtitle of the Elite, think like an athlete, succeed like
a champion would be the subtitle of the Elite. But
the next one is the one that really got my attention.
That's ten things the elite do differently. Can we break
those down?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yes, yes we can. Please yes, and I mean, certainly
that's what I've done in the book is so, and
what I learned in my research about how do you
write a non fiction book is it seems that the
general model is that you write a twelve chapter book
with an introduction and a conclusion, and then you have
your ten chapters in the middle. So the ten chapters
in the middle, and that's where I've broken it down
(23:49):
into some of those key elements that my experience has
told me is that when athletes get some of these
things right and work, and they're all the work in progress,
you know, So it's not like you can work your
way through the list and just tick them all off.
Is that you know, for all of us, at whatever
age we are, we're generally a work in progress. We're
working on some things. There's always something to work on.
(24:10):
So those are certainly the ten key chapters there in
the elite are the key messages that I really wanted
to focus on in that first book that I wrote,
because what I wanted to be able to do is
translate some of the lessons of high performance so that
anyone can read it and hopefully it's a very comfortable
read for people to read. Or listen to the audio book,
however they might want to do it. But you know,
(24:31):
we've got those lessons there and we can dip into those,
spend a bit of time with them, and work on
our skill sets.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
But if it's a golf book, it's going to be eighteen.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Chapters, well yes, yes, I'd have to make smaller chapters.
So maybe the golf book that I write will actually
be eighteen Or as my son did the other day,
I think he was avoiding doing something some chores at home,
so he actually played thirty six so he had so
much time the first time around he went around again,
So that might be a thirty six chapter.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
All right, so let's start with I mean, I don't
really care on what order it is, but I'd love
to get to these ten things that elite athletes do
that we could learn from, not that we don't, but
you know, let's also put in perspective that most elite
athletes are young people, right, I mean, whether the Olympics
(25:26):
or professional sports, they're between eighteen and thirty years old,
and we're looking at them like their heroes or something.
But they've got a talent or they've you know, got
a work ethic that puts them in a different place
than most of us who have a work ethic for
our work, right, so we shouldn't try to compare or
(25:49):
look to those people as guides for our lives. But
with that said, what are let's let's break down the
ten things.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, So I think one of the first things that
I would say is, and it taps into what we've
been talking about, is about having a master plan for
your mindset. So it's it's understanding some of those things
we were talking about earlier that you can have a
very fixed mindset around how how it is that you think,
or you can be open and you can be curious
(26:19):
and interestingly, in the next book that I'm writing, I'm
talking a lot about curiosity, which which fits in really
nicely with that notion of having a little bit of
a master plan around your mindset. It's understanding that the
way that you think matters, if you know, which is
such a simple concept in some ways, but it makes
such an incredible difference. And having that curiosity being open
(26:41):
to ideas is that you know, what I've what I
find is that when I meet curious souls, and whether
that be defense personnel, whether that be elite athletes, whether
it be you know, really experienced coaches that I work
with and so forth. It's about having that openness, that curiosity,
that flexibility in terms of thinking about being open to
(27:04):
you know, so maybe maybe in my golf game, actually
my putting is actually probably the best bit of it.
But you know, so let's say my driving, My driving
is where there is the most room for improvement. So
how's that for a positive reframe? So let's just say
that's what that is for me. So exactly what I've
just done there, see how I've really tried to positively
reframe that. You know, it's not the strongest of my
(27:27):
of my skill set when it comes to golf. And
if I say to myself, well, I'm not good at driving,
then that sounds quite fixed and it sounds quite permanent,
and it doesn't sound particularly positive. But even just shifting
that thinking slightly, I'm not good at driving, yet it
recognizes that possibility for improvement. And so I think one
(27:49):
of one of the key things for us to have
is that notion of that particular mindset piece. And I
think that's what's that's what's really helpful for us to
to start that with the approach around around our actual mindset,
because we know that your attitude can be your greatest
or your greatest acquisition, or can be one of your
(28:11):
biggest barriers.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Absolutely, absolutely, and probably and again with golf, there's so
little time that you're actually playing golf, and so much
of the time is beating yourself up going over the
last shot or worrying about the next one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Absolutely, And it's challenging, isn't it Because for many people
who don't go down the elite pathway, which is the
majority of golfers, this is the fun stuff. This is like,
this is what you're choosing to do in your recreation time,
and it's the skill that you're choosing to build. So
we want to find those ways to find the enjoyment
in it rather than spending ninety percent of that time,
(28:56):
you know, being frustrated and annoyed and like you said,
beating ourselves up so that you can be really quite challenging.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Absolutely all right, Where are we go next with that?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I think the next one and I think this will
resonate with what you were talking earlier about in terms
of pre shot rituals and routine is habits. Now look
to be honest habit. When I go into a room
of people, and because I do lots of presenting, and
I say, and I know we're going to talk about
habits because I know how incredibly important they are. You know,
(29:29):
about forty percent of what most of us do every
single day is on auto pilot. They are the habits
that we have. If you think about brushing your teeth
this morning, and let's assume we all brushed our teeth
this morning, but your routine of brushing your teeth, what
it was today is probably what it was yesterday, is
probably what it will be in a week's time. You know,
how you know whether you stand at the base and
whether you walk around the house looking for things, how
(29:52):
you actually go through that particular behavior, how long you
stand therefore, how effective a job you do, all those things.
So we know that our habits are great because they
save us from having to think. You know, I didn't
have to think too much about whether or not the
decision to brush my teeth this morning because I do
it on autopilot. It's a habit that I have. But
by the same token, we've got to be careful because
(30:14):
habits are awful because they save us from having to think,
so particularly in golf, there is the opportunity to bring
in so many habits into the game itself, and as
you very wisely share with the listeners or you know,
however many so many episodes that you've been doing this
(30:34):
for now is it is about those habits that we
create for ourselves because they're the bits we don't have
to think about. And as we get more expert at something,
what we're typically doing is we're just creating more habits.
Because the more habits you have, the more automated you
can make some of those things, the less thinking you
have to give them. You know, if anyone can remember
back to when they first started playing golf and you think,
(30:57):
I mean, it's a cognitive sport as it is, you know,
like there's a lot of thinking involved in terms of
there's a lot of intricacies and a lot of technique
involved in doing it well. So when you're first starting,
you can feel like you're running one hundred instructions through
your head, which we know isn't necessarily helpful. But you know,
over time, some of those instructions are less necessary because
(31:17):
through routine, through repetition, but also through habit they've been created.
So habit acquisition is probably I think one of the
most important elements. It's not probably the most enticing of topics,
or people don't go, oh, I'm really excited to hear
about creating habits, but there's no doubt that in our
lives that becomes incredibly important. And then of course it
(31:41):
flows on to the other things that in some way
have nothing to do with golf, but actually have everything
to do with golf. Our sleep and nutrition, our hydration.
I live in a very warm climate, so our sun's
safety when we're out there playing golf and so forth.
So we know that all of our habits, you know,
our habits work about how that you know we're in
(32:02):
a stressful work environment, what habits have we created around that?
Or our family environment is that stressful? And then ho
dos that then flow on an impact? So I think
even though it's not the most meeting of topics or
maybe the most exciting ones, I would say that investing
some time in understanding habits and creating great habits from
(32:23):
yourself really does set up that foundation for playing great golf.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Joe, you're on the Golf Smarter podcast. So topics like sleep, nutrition, hydration,
some protection habits routines. Those are not rare to be
discussed on this show. And so I'm just guessing that
either the audience rolls their eyes at me or they
are in That's why they keep coming back to more,
(32:58):
because we talk about things like.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
This absolutely, and I think it's challenging, isn't it, Because
I know sometimes people wish there was a quick fix
or wish that there was some little gadget or something
that we can do. And absolutely, we've got lots of
different skills and strategies and things that we can learn.
But literally the low hanging fruit, the things that's easiest
(33:21):
to pick, the things that are easiest to potentially change,
other things that have the biggest factor, you know. So
I spend a lot of time with defense personnel but
also with athletes looking at the topic of sleep because
whilst you know, excise physiologists and other specialists can give
us lots of great information around sleep, we also know
(33:43):
that sleep is a psychological experience, you know. So sleep
sleep starts with a really big decision, And the really
big decision is will I go to bed right now?
You know, it might be nine o'clock, it might be
ten o'clock and so forth, and there we are sitting
on the couch going I could go to bed right now,
or hey, there's one more episode of the show that
(34:03):
I'm streaming or that I'm watching, and so forth, And
then that's the decision point. And you know it's easy,
Like you know, it's easy at that point in time
to go, you know, like we know people know the
better choice. You know, we know that we're better off
to get more sleep. And I can say that, like,
you know, we're in different time zone, so it's early
in the morning for me, So I could tell you
(34:25):
what a great idea it'll be for me to go
to bed early tonight. But when I get to tonight,
at the end of a long day, when I'm fatigued,
humans struggle. Even the wisest people won't make good decisions
when they're tired and their glucose is low. So if
we want the things that make I guess pack the
biggest punch, if we want to put it that way,
or the low hanging fruit as I sometimes like to
(34:47):
describe it, is that the biggest performance enhances we have,
or are those elements. It's what's our nutrition been? Am
I rested, when did I last do some physical activity?
You know, those elements become incredib important and once we've
got those in place, then we can then we can
work on all the other stuff. But you know, it's
so much harder when we're tired, Like try doing anything
(35:09):
we're tired. It's it's such a struggle. And the other element.
I work a lot with teenagers, you know, I sort
of around that sixteen seventeen year old age group as well.
And if there's one thing that I can share with
the listeners, and I know not maybe some people are
listening who are sixteen seventeen, but there's certainly there's plenty
of people listening who were sixteen or seventeen once. And
(35:31):
you know, if this piece of information helps you in
that decision making at the end of the day when
you're deciding whether or not to go to bed. There
was some research conducted a couple of years ago now
looking at teenage athletes, and that what that research particularly
looked at is that those athletes who averaged under seven
hours sleeper night increase their risk of injury over the
(35:52):
next twenty one months by seventy percent. So, you know,
as golfers One of the things we want to do
is we want to avoid our risk of injury. If
we want to lower our risk of injury, lots of
things you can do. You would have had lots of
experts over the years and lots of advice Fred that
you give around injury prevention for people. But one of
(36:13):
the biggest things you can do is go to bed,
don't be tired. You know, when we're fatigued, we increase
our risk of injury. And I know that that's not
the bright and shiny advice that sometimes people look for,
but sometimes it is that. You know, it's that stuff
that we know, and it's just such a great way
to set ourselves up. If you want to get closer
to your goals, whatever they might be, if you want
to get closer to higher performance, fulfilling those factors sleep, nutrition,
(36:39):
and fiscal activity are They're really powerful things that we
have at our disposal that we can do every single
day that will help us.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I am so guilty. I get I you know, after
my wife goes to sleep, I'm like, yeah, I'll be
there in a few minutes, and then I turn on
YouTube and it's hours later that I come to bed
and it's like every you know, it's like, oh, this
one's under ten minutes, I'll just watch this one. Yeah,
it's good. O. Wait, oh here's a six minute when
(37:10):
I can do that? Oh, fifteen minutes, that's way too long.
I can watch that video. And I spend hours on
YouTube when I should be going to sleep, and I
know I should be going to sleep, and it's like,
how did it become eleven thirty all of a sudden?
Why am I still here?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Absolutely? And part of that Fred, Part of that Fred
is you know you're making a choice. But part of it,
the other reason that makes it harder, it's a harder
choice is because you're tired. And when we're tied, like
to be honest, and I'm probably going to sound a
bit logical as i say this, but if I think
about my reality, if it's in the evening and I'm
sitting on my couch and I'm watching some TV, it
(37:48):
is so much harder to get up, turn off the lights,
put the cat out, shut the door, go and brush
my teeth. Climbing, you know, get into my pajamas, climb
into bed. That's so much work. I don't even have
to press next episode anymore on my remote because the
streaming channel I used just flipped straight into the next episode,
So no effort to get off the coat couch. But
getting up and going to bed is work. So I've
(38:11):
got one little handy hint that worked for has worked
for a number of people that I work with over
the years, is and most people. The other trap is
that most people have got their phone close by, so
let's use our phone for good rather than for less good.
And if I can, one suggestion that I found work
for some people is to set your alarm clock to
go to bed, so you know that life, all life
(38:34):
would be improved if you went. And I'll make it
up if you know that you'd be better off if
you were heading to bed at ten pm, then set
the alarm for ten pm. And when the alarm goes off,
and this is what I talk about. I talk about
habit stacking and how to do that. In chapter three
in the book, the tap was called success on Autopilot,
but it's really about when the alarm goes off, then
(38:55):
I go to bed. And I think the curiosity that
we were talking about from chapter two that if you
can do that and say, well, look, it's not that
I have to go to bed early forever. But let's
try it for a month and see how I go.
Let's treat myself like a little science experiment, and I'm
going to try one or two little changes. Please don't
(39:16):
try lots of changes, because it's way too much for
our brains, and our heads explode when we do things
like that. You know, I'm a very big fan that
little by little, a little will become a lot. So
you know, just making a small if you can. And
I remember a soldier I worked with who brought his
bedtime forward by about an hour and a half because
he was staying up close to midnight, and I think
(39:37):
I think he changed his bedtime to about ten. He
said his first week was not fun because his body
just couldn't adjust and it took a little while. But
then after that he was waking up without his alarm clock,
he was feeling like exercise in the morning, he'd pack
his lunch and go to work. He was saving money,
like all these flow on effects, all because as he
went to bed a bit earlier, So it could be
(39:59):
how so, I'd say, if you're not sure, if you're
a bit doubtful, maybe give it a little try and
see how you go.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
My wife is has got the skill that I wish
I could do, and that just she falls asleep while
we're watching TV right there on the couch. She'll just
fall asleep and I'll and then I'll watch for another
couple of hours and then I'll go get ready for
then I'll come out. Go Okay, it's time to go
to bed now, girls like she just just stumbles into
bed like.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Ah, that lucky. You keep power, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, definitely superpower. You got any more of you know,
we don't have to do all ten obviously we want
people to buy the book. But let's uh, let's let's
do one or two more.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Okay, So let's do uh. I think that one of
the other things that I've always understood to be true
is that part of what helps with success in terms
of apperforms. So let's let's go. I've got to to
in mind that we could do. First of all, in gratitude.
(41:03):
Gratitude is one of those things now, So gratitude get
spoken of a lot, and often gratitude is spoken about
because there is a considerable amount of evidence that tells
us that when we look at happiness in people lots
of things that can make us happy. But when we
look at the biggest predictors of happiness, the two biggest
(41:24):
predictors of happiness, ay, they're great, they're free, and they're
easily at our disposal. It's been grateful and it's helping
other people. Those are the two biggest things that we
can do that will just if you simply want to
let's even put the golf to one side for a moment,
but if you simply want to be happier in your life,
be grateful for the things that you have and be
grateful to the people around you. So we know that
for sure, and there's in Australia and I'm sure it's
(41:47):
similar in other places in the world. You know, gratitude
as an intervention, if you like, is actually taught in
the schools. It's part of we run what's called positive
education programs, the science what goes well, and so we're
trying to teach children that being grateful is a great
way to start your day, it's a great rape feel
good about yourself. And there's lots of evidence around how
(42:08):
that helps in sort of many mental health conditions and
so forth. We know it has an impact for people
with multi moderate depression. So gratitude is just a winner anyway,
just in terms of making us happier within our lies.
But here's the extra little bit of bonus to those
of us that are athletes or those of us work
with athletes. Is what we're seeing now in the research
(42:30):
is there is also evidence to support the idea that
grateful athletes, grateful coaches, grateful teams perform better. So we're
actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhancer. So it was
enough in the first place that it makes you happier,
but what it does is it gets us closer to success.
So if you have two golfers who are similar in
(42:53):
levels of ability, but one of them walks through life
with a lens of gratitude and says, you know, how
great that you know, isn't it wonderful that I get
to play on this course, that I have the time
to do it, that I have the resources to play, that,
you know, because golf is not the cheapest of sports.
You know that I'm financially in a way that I'm
able to do this and spend this time. How fortunate
(43:16):
am I? And I'm in this? And usually I don't
think I'll beat to too many golf courses where it's
not a pretty place to look around and so forth
as well. So how good is that? And if you
can play that mindset to someone who by defaults and
the way I people often say to me, why is that, Joe?
Why do you think gratitude is performance enhancer? And I
(43:37):
think there's probably a couple of reasons. But one of
the reasons is that, you know, have you ever met
a grateful winder or a grateful complainer? You haven't, as
it's very you cannot be great. There's not many things
that can't do coexist and do, but you cannot be
grateful and complain at the same time. Like those two
things do not go hand in hand. Try it now,
(44:00):
but I've never seen it. It's okay complaining and whinging,
getting on what I call the complain train. You know, well,
my shots are terrible today, and I can't believe that
it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter than I thought,
and you know, the greens are too short or they're
too long, and they're da da da da daha, and
you know, and people in front are too slow, and
(44:21):
there's people going quickly too quickly behind us and all
that sort of stuff. Well, that already sounds like the
sort of person I don't really want to spend a
couple of hours with. But it also doesn't put you
in a mindset that sets you up to being open
and creative and curious, which we know of those things
and go help us in terms of performance. So I
and I think physiologically it makes a difference too. When
(44:44):
we are grateful, it's a happy place, you know. It's
it's almost, like I say, it's almost like an internal
little sigh where we relax. Whereas if I'm not grateful,
if I am complaining and whinging, I'm going to exaggerate
it for those who are watching on the YouTube. But
if you imagine for those who are listening, I'm scrunching
up my shoulders, I'm furrowing my brow, I'm scrunching my hands. Like,
(45:06):
complaining and winging is tense. So my understanding of golf is,
you know, you're probably not going to say, well, Joe,
your next shot, you go to a really good job.
If you completely tense up through it, you're not going
to tell me that. So while we're thinking to get
you closer to being tense rather than being relaxed. So
gratitude is an absolute winner for us in terms of
performance enhancement.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Absolutely, and I think that's a performance enhancing drug that
is not in jeopardy of being banned very soon.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Absolutely. The thing is it's free. You can be listening
to this podcast and almost momentarily, you know, thinking about
the things that you're grateful for. You could be standing there,
you know, maybe you are waiting for your tea time
or whatever it is to start, and you could sit
there sort of you know, worrying about something you can't control,
(45:56):
like the speed of the people in front of you,
or you could go, well, this is a bit of
extra time on the calls, and how beautiful is this?
So that gratitude piece is really and yeah, I don't
think there's any research in it, but I'm very sure
that grateful people that are looking as well, so maybe
as that effect.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Oh that's that's awesome. And I wanted to just make
sure we cover part two of the two biggest predictors
of happiness and you and let's go to part two
on that.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, so part two on that is helping others. So
we do know that when we lean in literally to others.
When we do things to make lives for others better
or improved, or we assist them in some sort of way,
not only does that person get the benefit of us
about help and assistance, which is a great enough reason
to do it, but we also need to understand that
(46:45):
it flows back to us. It feels good to help others.
There's a little dope mein kick that comes with it,
and that fits in with one of the chapters in
the book, which was going to be the second point
that I was going to make. And that's why those
two go so well hand in hand, is because we
know that people matter. And you know, if we're looking
at this in terms of our success in golf, whatever
(47:06):
that might be, or our ability to perform well in it,
it is based on those people who are around you.
Maybe part of your bolfing success is because there's other
people in your life that helps carry the load at home. Say, say,
if you've got home commitments and maybe are partners at
home looking after people or animals or whatever it might be,
or doing something in the home that enables you then
go and play golf, maybe you then do that in
(47:27):
return for them so that they can spend their time
doing the thing that brings them joy. You know, how
you manage your relationships is really critical to your life.
And we know that when we're engaging in sporting endeavor,
we don't do it in a silo that when we
could talk to others about it. And in golf, you know,
we've always got friends who play as well and can
talk for hours at a time. I guess about golf
(47:49):
and the intricacies of it and how it all works,
but I guess human connection is important for us just
as humans. But when we're playing golf, it is one
of those pursuits that we can really, you know, get
that extra benefit and in terms of what that means
for us in terms of our mental health and our
well being, that connection with others doing a shared, hopefully
(48:10):
fun activity is something that's really beneficial for us. And
we know that's another part of what will keep us
coming back.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Amazing. That's fabulous. Please tell us the names of the
books that we should go find.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Thank you. So I would start with the Elite. So
the Elite is and it's written at a sort of
grade ten level, So you know, so fourteen fifty from
age fourteen fifteen is probably a time when you could
be reading the book. And the nice thing about The
Elite is we know that people learn and read and
(48:48):
consume information in different ways. So I've got it there
as paperback, as an ebook, and also as an audiobook,
and it is actually me I did Actually it was
the longest weekend of my life when I did it,
but I recorded the audiobook that is also that was
also a test of perseverance. So I've got the Elite.
Then in twenty twenty, I wrote a book called In
the Grandstand and that is a parent's survival guide for
(49:10):
teen sports, so that there's lots involved in sports parenting.
So that was actually you can probably guess the age
of my own children at the time that I wrote
that book. I also wrote an interactive journal which is
called The game Plan, and the game Plan goes through
the five predictors of high performance, and we've actually talked
about some of them on the episode today. And that
(49:32):
journal is designed as I think that works best as
the paperbacks then you can actually write in it. But
what I've also put in that is I've put I
think there's about twenty five QR codes in there that
link to videos explaining concepts, so it's an extra little
bit of individual creating. I guess through that. Last year,
I wrote a book specifically for athletes and performers called Belief,
(49:57):
and that's about building unshakable confidence. So I wrote a
book called Belief, and if I may show it hot
off the press is my new book, The Whistleblower. So
it is a mental toughness rule book for officials, umpires,
and referees. So motivated by the fact that I've worked
with a lot of referees and officials over the years,
(50:19):
because we do know that it's a mentally challenging and
tough area to be in. And also it's a little
bit of a project of the heart because both of
my sons are referees in their own sports, so that's
what they've gone down, and well both of them have
actually gone down in the elite pathway in refereeing and officiating.
(50:39):
So and look, I think a few people have read
it and said to me, this is actually for anyone, Joe,
and I said, I know, but I've specifically written it
for referees. So if you're not a referee, I want
to read it, you'll just have to translate it in
your head. But all the principles apply. And I think
that's the thing, isn't it, Fred That the mental side
of what it is to play golf applies across our lives.
(51:00):
So if we're working on our mental skills in our life,
it will translate across to what's happening for us in
golf as well, So it goes both ways.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, and tell us about how we can follow you
or your URL and social media.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Thank you. So if you can remember my name, you
can find me. So it's doctor Joe lukens Jo and
that's l u k i NS so I have that
and I go under that for all my socials. So
I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn Instagram. My children tell me I
have a fairly average TikTok following. Aparently I could be
(51:35):
better at that, So I just tell them every expert
was once a beginner, and I'm still a beginner.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
And certainly, in terms of finding the books, they're available
on all the usual platforms of books. So wherever you
like to consume your books, wherever you like to get
them from, maybe you've got a great indie bookstore nearby
that can get them in for you. If not, some
of the larger platforms can also find them for you.
So Fred, thank you for allowing me to share that
with the listeners.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience
and your insights with us. We really appreciate it and
it was a great conversation. I really learned a lot.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Thanks Grett, Thank you, Fred,
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