September 23, 2025 • 47 mins
GS#1018 In this episode Jon Schram shares his journey through the world of golf, detailing his early passion for the sport, the challenges of competition, and the mental struggles he faced. He discusses the importance of flow state in performance and how understanding psychology has shaped his approach to golf and coaching. Schram's story highlights the balance between joy and anxiety in sports, the role of support systems, and the transformative power of mental focus. We also explore the concept of flow in golf performance, discussing how golfers can achieve a state of mind that enhances their game. They delve into the unique nature of flow, the importance of mindfulness and focus, and how acceptance and consistency play crucial roles in achieving peak performance. Schram emphasizes the need for golfers to trust their abilities and maintain a positive mindset to improve their game. For more, visit praxisperf.com
This episode is brought to you by BreakfastBalls.Golf. Visit BreakfastBalls.Golf for the best quality and pricing on premium used golf balls. Find your favorite brand at half the price of new balls! Use GOLFSMARTER at checkout for 20% off your order!
Check out "Invested in the Game", a new original podcast from Charles Schwab. This podcast is their way of sharing the incredible stories behind the game. Listen now at schwab.com/TheGame or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Please visit indeed.com/GOLFSMARTER and get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT. Terms and conditions apply.
This episode is sponsored by HIMS. Start your free online visit today HIMS.com/golfsmarter and received personalized ED treatment options.
This episode is also brought to you by Policygenius. Secure your family’s future with Policygenius. Head to policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save.
If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com
This episode is brought to you by BreakfastBalls.Golf. Visit BreakfastBalls.Golf for the best quality and pricing on premium used golf balls. Find your favorite brand at half the price of new balls! Use GOLFSMARTER at checkout for 20% off your order!
Check out "Invested in the Game", a new original podcast from Charles Schwab. This podcast is their way of sharing the incredible stories behind the game. Listen now at schwab.com/TheGame or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Please visit indeed.com/GOLFSMARTER and get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT. Terms and conditions apply.
This episode is sponsored by HIMS. Start your free online visit today HIMS.com/golfsmarter and received personalized ED treatment options.
This episode is also brought to you by Policygenius. Secure your family’s future with Policygenius. Head to policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save.
If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at
Briardaloe Golf Course.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Golf Smarter.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I
play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter
Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what
flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance.
I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance
psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing
(00:32):
to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad
balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in
imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an
acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than
it should be. And I will say that maybe some
of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the
attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
(00:53):
there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to
be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a
rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts,
mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the
best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this
in a highly emotional state because I know that a
highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe
even impacts one after that.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with
performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,
tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,
Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
John, Right, how are we doing doing great?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in
having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is
putting the flow state the mental game into use at
new levels. And you reached out to me, and I
really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history
(02:04):
which I want to go first, so we established that credibility.
I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted
to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want
to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't
want to interview you if you don't want to talk
about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads
being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's
(02:26):
start with your golf journey, which brought you to where
we are going to discuss more.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me.
I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I
believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was
heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of
my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once
a week or once a year for about a week
(02:54):
and that was just my golf week for two or
three years. And you know, it's just one of those
things where you know, you don't see a ton of
them here and there. It's I think it's popping up
back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt,
you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And
that's that's where I fell in love with the game.
I could not get away from it in a way
(03:15):
that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My
parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to
spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know,
a similar store is many getting dropped off at six
seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm.
At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So
Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the
(03:39):
guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He
played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe,
and then one maybe two years here on the tour
in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name
is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber
in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth
(03:59):
in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has
it related to me? Is it related to so many
the juniors there? We were able to get, you know,
all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these
you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd
done it. So we had this great role model to
look up to for you know, ten twelve years where
(04:20):
I started competitive golf at seven and a you know,
in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour.
I want to play at that high level. I want
to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued
it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach
to just say, hey, how bad do you want it?
Let's push it, and all the way up until about
eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight
(04:42):
hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun.
It was just fun. It never was anything but fun.
Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career,
things started turning. It really started to get to a
point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if
this is going to happen, this is going to happen,
(05:03):
this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe
even a little depression kind of hit. I was able
to sign with a mid major at ball State. I
stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was
too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much
to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into
(05:25):
a dark period at least in my life. But it
was one of those things that taught me a lesson
of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I
love so much. How can I hate it? And you
know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay,
psychology is something that I need to invest my time in.
I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point,
but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob
(05:46):
Winders for a few sessions, and I think.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
We've had him on the show multiple times.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the
way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment,
I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want
to do now. I still love competing. I play at
the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough
to make the US Midydam last year and a good
old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But
(06:11):
I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in
a different light, but golf has always been kind of
the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense.
And I realized during my experiences at All State, during
my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot
of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports,
(06:31):
you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood,
really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right?
So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when
COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started
studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently,
but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life,
(06:54):
many of them in a different place than I was,
is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know,
this game has probably so much joy and so much
passion that there's no way I can leave it.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and
your openness to be able to discuss it. When you
were playing at your best before I guess before you
got to college and you were really obsessed with the
whole thing, at what point did you get to start
recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side,
(07:31):
if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear
and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was
it your golf game that was prompting that?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
It was the scale at home? I was losing ten
pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think
at that point I knew that it was intense. I
knew that it was something that I cared about. I
think as I had conversation in groups with guys that
I had mind, or at least guys that I still
could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are
(08:04):
you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or
you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with
several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's
a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little
bit of a view on the sport of you on
the game that is a little different than maybe I
had in the moment.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance,
anxiety of playing competitively?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where
we have big days, right, we all have whether it's
related to the game, whether it's related to life. We
all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure
if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if
I can keep a full meal with me. Right in
those moments, I think when it got really dark, it
really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to
(08:57):
sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight.
I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down.
But it was still worth it. It was still worth
to get out there and just try my best, and
in that moment the results are still there. But I
think at some point you just start breaking down, why
was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition,
(09:22):
and I love what I built. And I think when
you talk to the very best performers, at least in
our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy,
pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the
sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight,
when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like,
(09:42):
I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen,
I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that
little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the
piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really
good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that.
But I think when the lights turn on, there's a
very different experience there. And that's the at least on
the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous
(10:06):
amounts of joy that I take from being able to
get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys
or any of my poker guys, just in a you know,
it might be one sentence that gives them kind of
the right perspective to be there. You know, I really
enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time
I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds
coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But
what were your parents observing in you and how did
they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take
(10:54):
control of you.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much,
you know, to be very honest, and now I understand
they were investing a lot as well just for me
to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty
yards a week just to be able to afford to
be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already
(11:17):
made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right.
I think when it came to a head when I
did transfer, there was a little bit more at home
that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and
they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two
very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is
a third rail here that you can touch that might
(11:38):
be a little much.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We got a sense of how your parents were reacting
to what you were going through. How about your coaches?
Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and
or were you pushing.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I think it was more an internal thing. I really
had a lot of support and I think throughout, as
I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just
kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he
skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to
FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he
(12:22):
got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He
was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe
in that day he was very type tight with pain.
So he had a lot of time really playing with
the best of that time. So I'll think of things said,
I've really had a lot of support from these coaches.
(12:44):
I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki
at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood
where I was trying to go, very much understood kind
of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you
can see high level coaching come out in a in
an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never
(13:05):
felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate
to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive.
I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically
Home had a lot of support there as well. But
to answer your question, it really was an internal thing
because you know, while it is the greatest pay and
it is the greatest joy, and I was just like,
(13:26):
let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where
was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out,
I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know. I think the stats say that if you
could win three percent on tour year in the Hall
of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether
it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff.
I think that that, frankly, that that might be it.
Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of
(14:06):
the game and just what it is, and also the
competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You
have you have some guys that you know, they work
nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't
do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance,
and I think where all of this has led, at
least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance.
(14:27):
I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put
into work to get good enough to actually test themselves,
whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at
the end of the day, it's what have you built
and what can you try to show off today? And
I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me,
kept me coming back.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So coming back to performance, at what point in your
performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and
that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you
see it?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting
my performance. Still, I still was so I I was
so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the
end of the day, it's just a game, right to us,
It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a
(15:23):
letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling.
No more than two days later, I got a call
from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We
chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay,
well that that's special, right. But at the end of
the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer.
(15:44):
Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in
the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up
on the range or they at least have something to
control on that first t they do calm down. And
I have felt that, at least in my studies, I
found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone,
that is a place of ultimate control. So I will
(16:06):
say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory,
of the three percent win, the three percent success, I
think having that control over something that built, at least
when it counts, is really rewarding.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it
present itself during year round or did did it not?
It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah,
but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally
(16:40):
in it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green,
there there might be the classic we call it arousal.
At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of
has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready,
when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated,
calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know.
(17:05):
I think most great golfers in those moments understand what
understands what takes them to the very best, and they're
able to channel that. But at least for me, and
I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah,
there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think,
without naming too many names, some very large, like big
(17:28):
time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm
not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names,
but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five
of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like,
these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not
eating that, they're just not they're in the same category
(17:51):
as you. WHOA, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should.
I don't want to push on that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think
I just want to remain his trust. But also they're
just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know,
as we progress here, you're in college and you're really
struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when
you're playing.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Did you reach the flow state when you were playing?
Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And
to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective.
It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now,
we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back
and went, oh, I was really locked in there.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment
that I okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You're here, you're a soapbox, come.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger
tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into
your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know,
four or five holes left, I was told by my
coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going
to make it. You know, I've always been on a
really solid you know, I've always been on a really
solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to
(19:29):
that state final, really know, through my through not through
my doing, but through a couple of really great players
that I got to play with. But about four holes left,
I was told that, you know, gave myself four really
good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those
three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John,
(19:51):
you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's
not telling me this, but he's like, all he said
was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often
that's a.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think
it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all
I need is two more pars and I have my
best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because
I never really would have strategically gone for it. If
you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you
know that there is something that needs to happen. But
I only reference it because it is the deepest I've
ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds,
(20:38):
but at least the people that I've interviewed have had
most of the clients that I have that are D one,
two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and
fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three
hours on that. I want to hear everything about it.
But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared.
I got over it, and I do not remember. You know,
(21:01):
all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the
tight little drawl that went out there. And then I
got over a ball at you know, two nine. I
knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit
six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden,
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it.
You just know that you had a six iron in
your hand.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I got over the ball. I remember taking it back.
I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically,
and then you know, you get over this twenty footer.
And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have
high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing
up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us.
(21:41):
But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four
or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I
think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a
twenty footer that really there's no way that I can
explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter
what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in.
And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I
(22:03):
just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and
just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how
flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine.
So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of
a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term
flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does
(22:24):
talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what
flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time.
You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there,
the pieces of the action that you know how to complete,
whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf
all somewhere, context of basketball, Steph Curry, you know what
(22:47):
he can do. Really, there's no need for much rationalization
because you've already done it, you know how to do it,
and it's just full trust in the moment in your
ability to do it. So I reference that because frankly
I don't remember it, and that that's really the only
time I've blacked out. Most individuals that I do interview,
(23:08):
at least for this study, have reported times where okay,
there's kind of a misunderstanding of timing ball slows down,
ball speeds up. If you're a batter at the plate,
ball slows down. Tennis returning a serve that's one hundred
and twenty miles an hour, ball slows down a little bit.
There's something about the state that really can slow and
(23:30):
quick in time depending on the what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So did you egle the hole?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It get going? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
All right, let's bring it back to us. Okay, I mean,
I know this is a fascinating story and I really
appreciate your honesty with this, But this podcast is how
are we going to help the recreational golfer, competitive golfer,
and some off constructors. But how do we help them
(24:03):
understand that it's possible to get into a flow state,
it's possible to release the anxiety and perform better. What
is your approach? Where do you start with that?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I initially start by interviewing. If it's a client, if
it's a friend that's just trying to figure this out.
I want to know the the nitty gritty, the detail,
the thought, the emotion, the feeling of what you know
your best performance has been. Ideally it's within the last
(24:40):
few months. Just something that we can recall accurately. I
want to know the ingredients of success for you. How
do you feel, how do you think? How do you really?
Are you high level motion? Low level motion where you're
having fun? Are you scared? All of that? Within the
viduals that might have other professional obligations, and we're still
(25:04):
talking golf, I'll ask, hey, if you were an executive,
one point, take me through a deal talk, Take me
through negotiation, Take me through a time where you're in
front of a lot of people. Take me through you know,
complex decision making that you've been able to just right.
Flow exists in all of our professional endeavor really, if
(25:24):
you do it a lot, It exists in your life.
If you have gone on any road trip that's north
of one hundred and twenty miles, if I asked you
what happened on mile eighty two, most likely you couldn't
tell me really where that is or what's going on,
or you know, the dog that was barking in the
corner of the road, or the deer that may have
hopped out at you. You might remember if the deer
(25:46):
hopped out, But for the most part, you're in this
flow that is just there. You have trust in your
ability to operate the vehicle there. Golf is really no different,
except it's quite a bit more precise, and I think
that's where we get tripped up on. So really my
first question, more or less is okay, tell me about
this this this nine holes that you just kind of
(26:07):
went down there? You know that it was different. What
was the quality of that? Uh? You know, the next
step beyond that, I'm going to ask, Okay, well, tell
me about last week, tell me about last month, the
last few times you've been out the average or even
the bad And you know, in that conversation, in that interview,
I'm kind of able to you know, dictate, Okay, this
(26:30):
was there, you know, being in the bad performance of
the average performance, this was hair in the great performance.
What what are some of the difference? What are what
are some of the qualities that might be in both buckets,
but what's the difference between the two? And then really
from you know, from there, you know, second and third
base of what we do is more or less building
a process to try to feed those buckets that really
(26:52):
have figured it out.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So is your goal to get a better understanding in
your studies and your PhD dissertation? Are you trying to
get a better understanding of how people get there, or
are you trying to get to a place where you
can assist us in getting there.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think the study, or at least the exercise that
I'm going through currently, is to better describe what it is.
So believe it was in twenty twelve and twenty fifteen
there were two pretty large studies that came out that
basically said, Okay, my zone or my flow, it's going
to be very different than friend's flow, and very different
(27:36):
than Steph Curry's flow, very different than Phil and Tiger, etc.
It's a very unique tied to personality. Maybe not the
personality that you might think of extroverted, introverted, friendly, not friendly,
but personality is more or less a descriptor of just
my difference to you, right. Yeah, at the end of
the day, it's describing it better throughout my code consulting.
(28:01):
Moving forward with that, Yeah, my goal is to try
to help as many types of golfer, very types of
performer as I can. But the study itself is just describing.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I see, I see. But I find it interesting that
you want to bring your subject away from the golf
course into different environments. Yeah, I completely understood, like the
driving analogy is phenomenal. It really it's like, oh, okay,
I get that, and yeah, golf can be that way
as well. I think that I have had rounds where
(28:37):
when I look back on I'm like, oh, that's the
flow state, Like I don't remember, you know, it was
just happening. I wasn't thinking about it. It was just
there and it just felt right, And I didn't try
to analyze it at the time, because I guess if
you try to, hey, I'm in the float. You know,
if you try to do that, you're going to just
(28:59):
fall right out of it. I better not screw up
this next shot.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
But certainly I would even equate it, at least in
your experience being just over a thousand podcasts at this point,
listening back to your podcast, listening back to perhaps a guest,
going down a line of thought to where you may
have not expected it, going down a line of thought
where you're like, Okay, where am I going to go now?
(29:24):
Or what is the question I'm going to ask now,
and just hearing yourself respond with the answer, like maybe
even the textbook question that is up up next, you
might not remember making that decision. I call that flow
as well. I think that that is that is your zone,
because you know you have repetition in it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Right, I'm completely honest. Sometimes that I you know, I
listened to the interview. I edit the interview. Not a
lot of editing is just tightening things up and whatnot
to make it publishable. But Okayaly, I'll listen back to
an episode right just to check how things and I
(30:06):
hear things in it that I never heard when we
were having the conversation. Initially, because I'm looking as we're
having this conversation, I'm looking for doors opening up for
the next question. I'm looking for opportunities to create the
next question. And sometimes obviously and sometimes I miss what
(30:29):
the person's point is, like, oh well, why did I
How did I possibly miss that?
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, So I didn't want to make this about my
doing interviews. I do want to make it more about
how the average golfer can use to get into the
(30:59):
focus and stay without questioning, you know, without rehashing that
last shot that you didn't like, you know, and staying
focused on the next shot, without thinking about the mechanics
of it, because that really is going to that is
the bomb that's going to explode. If you start thinking
(31:19):
about your mechanics, you're going to be in big trouble, right.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I think the illustration that I use that is probably
been most relatable is if I'm in the room with somebody,
I'll have a little red rubber ball, and I'll toss
that rubber ball at them. I'll have them toss it back.
We might toss it back and forth without me even
giving any proper whatsoever, and you know, after a few tosses,
(31:44):
I'll get the rubber ball back and I'll essentially ask
what about your ability or what about that movement? Were
you questioning? What about that moment did you have trust in?
Why did you think that that release point, with that tempo,
with that feed is going to be perfect? How did
you assume that? How did you trust that? Now? That
(32:06):
is a much more simple, much more much less complex
movement than any golf movement, even a two foot putt, right,
It's it's always going to be tricky for us in
some context. My best illustration for that is more or less,
if you're so focused on the target and you understand
(32:26):
that you have a relative ability to send a ball
in that direction, why are we exerting so much more
of a mental effort. Why are we exerting more mental
energy to this move when I've done it a few
thousand times, You've done it a few thousand times. Every
single person that is trying to get help with their
golf swing or their golf game, they've done it enough
(32:49):
to ask the question. So I have a belief that
you know, we've we've invested a lot of time, We've
invested a lot of energy into building whether it's this
you know, more or less a brain pathway or at
least a pattern that we're able to send something or
able to swing in a relatively precise manner, to send
(33:10):
something to a very distinct in small target. You know,
that level of precision usually is not going to be
friendly to over analysis. And this is another special thing
about flow. I believe it was late two thousands, early
twenty tens that they started talking about the physiological nature
(33:31):
of what flow actually is. What happens the prefrontal shuts down,
we still have the same energy budget. We still have
this budget that our brain is operating with. Right even
though the prefrontal, which is complex decision making, shuts down,
we have this excess energy that essentially is able to
go through that back two thirds and you know, without
(33:53):
getting into the nitty gritty, because frankly, I don't have
the physiological knowledge to actually quote all the but that
extra power really turns on a bit of a superman
in us. Because at the end of the day, if
you ever have any time on SAM or track Man
or any of the shot, the more or less the
(34:14):
launch monitors, any of that data, you'll know that this
is a very precise game. And if you are accustomed
to this, to your draw it means that most likely
that face is just a little open, maybe half degree
to and a half degrees, it means that your path
is either relatively flat or maybe coming in zero point
(34:34):
five end out. That's a very precise pattern that we're
able to hit time in and time out. So as
I interview individuals with flow, when I if I interview
the topic of your best round, ever, there isn't a
lot of thought. But how can that be? There's really
there's still a presence of a very precise movement.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You said, turn on superman. I want to know what
you mean by that and how we can do it.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Most studies indicate that focus has to be external. I
think that's rather obvious, at least when we describe that
in the golf context. If I'm thinking about my shoulder,
but think about rotation by thinking about moving onto that
left foot, that right foot, if you're left handed, it's
probably not a great thing. I at least in the
(35:29):
interviews that I've done, there can be one feel or
one swing thought that Okay, we can squeak through that.
That's great. You know, I'm coaching to try to take
these people to very lee levels or trying to take
them into the version of themselves. I still think that
the swing thought is a bit of a bandit. I
(35:50):
think that if we're able to operate just as we
are in the very best moments of our golf game,
there tends to be mindlessness now with its unique It
could be one swing thought, it could be one feel.
But for the most part, I really want individuals to
take a look at Okay, if I'm on the range
(36:12):
getting ready for a round, I'm getting warmed up. But
also the intention of your warm up towards the end
really should be there's a target out there at one
hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to get over
the ball with my express interest, my only thought being
the target. Because we really are only able to think
about one thing at one time, and the intention, or
(36:34):
at least the presence of that last thought right before
you pull the trigger usually is kind of the dictator
of what's happening. The subconscious really can't understand negatives or nose.
So if I'm sitting over and you know a cape
style part three, you know, you see a lot of
those with Pete Tye where there's just this water line
(36:56):
that's going kind of meandering to the right or meandering
to the left for some reason. If we do hit
in the water, relatively good players will hit it in
the water right on that edge right. If they're struggle
with the thought of do not go here, the subconscious
can really only understand the essence of here, what is
do not go out in the water? Oh? Water right?
(37:17):
I think it also come out in interviews that I've
had with really really talented individuals that are able to
play professionally. For the most part, their intention, the clarity
of their thought, is the dictator for pretty much everything
outside of humidity, heat, wind change, getting the wrong number.
In that sense, they don't tend to miss they're really
(37:39):
they're professionals. Right. The only real, large, large mistake that
you'll see is maybe a wrestling with thought at the end,
right before we're pulling the trigger. Keep going, we keep going.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Okay, we're on something here.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think with
your viewers, your listeners, if they really want to fall
into the flow, or at least experience one of their
better performances, I would say, first, take note on what
has already happened. What's the essence of me at my best?
Right number two, when we're warming up, I would take
(38:18):
a look at what can we do in a mindless
sense if I'm getting over the ball. What's the result
when my intention, my focus is just that target, whether
it's a two yard cut, five yard cut, you a
nasty shot to the right, nasty shut to the left,
let yourself just give your subconscious the wheel of okay,
take control of this. At the end of the day,
(38:40):
I do believe that when we no matter what level
we play at, if we're confident in our ability to
send it to hopefully a good destination, we're able to
play relatively unfettered golf, whatever level it is. So I
always like to visualize heavily behind the ball. I like
to see the shot tracker, just as we see on
(39:01):
CBS or or on golf channel. I want to see that,
and if I'm on the greens, I want to see
that ball roll on that track right before I end it.
Jack Nicholas always said that his warm ups were basically
to understand who did I bring today? Did I bring
the two yard cut? Did bring the three yard cut?
Did I bring the one yard drawl? Basically you'd say, okay,
(39:23):
I brought the two yard cut today, I'm going to
go dance with the two yard cut, and he would
stay committed to that shot. But I can almost guarantee
you the essence of Nicholas's thought was, where am I
going with this? I'm a professional. I can send it
to the direction or the distance that is required. The
focus must be there. So for your viewers that have
played basketball or any target warriented game, if I'm at
(39:46):
a dartboard, I'm focusing on that triple twenty, I'm probably
If you're really good at darts, you're probably focusing on
a portion of that triple twenty. If you're really really
good at basketball, you're probably focusing on that half inch
front piece of the rim. You're not focused on anything internal?
Why on earth will be focus internal and golf? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah. We recently had Josh Xander on a couple months
ago and do you know, Josh, do you know he
is oh okay? And I've found this quote that I
presented to him and says, instead of focusing on twenty
two percent of your game that isn't going right, take
the glass half full approach and appreciate seventy eight percent
(40:31):
of the game that's working for you that day. Yes,
have the awareness to play towards your.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Strengths, right, that's right?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And yeah, I mean I think that you may have
come up with the title of this episode about what
can we achieve in a mindless state?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
You know, how far can we go that the key
in that mindless state is walking into the ball completely
agnostic to what's happened before, what's happened, what hopefully is
happening in front. Right. I think at the end of
the day, we play a game that is rather drawn out.
(41:13):
If you play competitively, you're going to have to more
or less be on the ball for forty eight or
fifty four hours. Yes, you might be in the hotel room,
you might be the restaurant, etc. But when you're on
the golf course, you have to be locked in. It's
going to be four and a half hours of that.
Do that a few times in a row. A lot
of scarring, a lot of emotion, a lot of intensity
can build up. But I think at the end of
(41:35):
the day, flow is relatively agnostic to emotion. When we're
operating at our very best, it's a bit of an
emotionless process until that final put drops the car. Analogy
even really talking to clients about their professional endeavors, when
they're succeeding, when they're doing well, when they're getting things done,
(41:59):
it's just business usual. It's really not something that is
an abnormal rollercoaster of events. That's not how you run
a business. That's not how you lead people. You have
to lead people through consistency, relentless consistency. I think at
the end of the day, with golf, it is the
ultimate challenge on staying more or less agnostic emotionally. As
(42:22):
it's so precise. We will have you know, misses and yeah,
please don't quote me, but it was a legend, legend
of the game. I think it was Hogan or Hagan
that said, basically, he budgeted four bad swings into a round.
Every single round. He budgeted the fact that I am
completely an acceptance of four essentially gimmes. It's not that
(42:46):
he's re hitting or anything, but he essentially said, hey,
if I make a bad swing or just chop it up,
cops are doing business right. And you know, any of
those guys that made a name for themselves back in
the day relentlessly incredible ball strikers, they just don't really nice. Uh.
And you know, for that kind of player to say,
(43:08):
you know what, at four times, I'm going to give
myself grace. Every single round, I'm gonna give myself grace
four times. So I think it's it's kind of looking
in the mirror at whatever stage you're at. If you're
a competitive, you know, tour pro, if you're a recognercial player,
if you're a mid am, if you're a college player,
probably more than four times you're going to let yourself down, right.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, you definitely need to budget a little bit more
than four. Yeah, and for for you know, the people
that I play with and at my level, it's like
budget budget for one per hole and then leave your
and be nice to yourself.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I think the uh maybe a good way to
wrap up what flow is and how to fall into
it is relentless acceptance, because I think the greatest sin
is it relates to performance psychology in the game of
golf is allowing one swing to impact multiple, one situation
to impact multiple, one bad balance to impact multiple. We
(44:11):
play an imperfect game in imperfect air on imperfect surfaces.
So if we don't have an acceptance attitude, it's going
to be a little harder than it should be. And
I will say that maybe some of your listeners, it
takes time. Over time. You know, if you have the
attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
(44:34):
There's still going to be headwinds there, it's still going
to be difficulties, But in time, it's more or less
a rationalization that you know, this is the better path.
I always like to say that in certain context, released
in golf context, that mental toughness really is a rationalization
that this is the best path. I'm not going I'm
gonna choose not to respond to this in a highly
(44:55):
emotional state, because I know that a highly emotional state
is going to impact next, maybe even impacts one after that.
So I think at the end of the day, flow
is all about relentless consistency and relentless acceptance.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Wow, I got to write that one down an acceptance,
and I love the line flow is agnostic to emotion.
That's really powerful stuff. Maybe that's the title of episode.
I don't know. So are you publishing your findings and
(45:37):
your work online? How do we learn more about what
you're doing?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
John, late May, early June. I'll have it available twenty
twenty five, Yes, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
It's a podcast.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
We have to say that, so I haven't gotten used
to that. Yeah. In short order, I'm going to have
some interviews that will be rather interesting. I do believe
that a lot of the commentary there is going to
be a little bit more academic, but I'm going to
try to kind of more or less summarize it in
a readable fashion and have that available on my website
(46:10):
probably probably late June, early July. At that point, I
can't say that I'm writing anything currently. I'm mainly working
with clients, is it currently? But yeah, I hope to
get some more information about the findings because I do
believe that in its individual nature it is. Really it's
(46:32):
still at this point academia is still kind of stretched
their head. It's okay, we know that this is here,
but we can't really describe what it is and why
is it or how do I experience it or how
does somebody else experience it. So hoping to bring a
little bit more clarity to that. But as it relates
to golf, I just hope to help individual shoot some
(46:53):
lower scores here soon.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Well, I really appreciate the journey that we took with
you in how we started out for your golf journey
and then brought it to your studies and your thesis
really fascinating and thank you and best of luck man,
and let's stay in touch.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me Fred
Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at
Briardaloe Golf Course.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Golf Smarter.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I
play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter
Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what
flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance.
I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance
psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing
(00:32):
to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad
balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in
imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an
acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than
it should be. And I will say that maybe some
of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the
attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
(00:53):
there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to
be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a
rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts,
mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the
best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this
in a highly emotional state because I know that a
highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe
even impacts one after that.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with
performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,
tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,
Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
John, Right, how are we doing doing great?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in
having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is
putting the flow state the mental game into use at
new levels. And you reached out to me, and I
really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history
(02:04):
which I want to go first, so we established that credibility.
I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted
to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want
to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't
want to interview you if you don't want to talk
about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads
being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's
(02:26):
start with your golf journey, which brought you to where
we are going to discuss more.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me.
I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I
believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was
heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of
my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once
a week or once a year for about a week
(02:54):
and that was just my golf week for two or
three years. And you know, it's just one of those
things where you know, you don't see a ton of
them here and there. It's I think it's popping up
back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt,
you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And
that's that's where I fell in love with the game.
I could not get away from it in a way
(03:15):
that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My
parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to
spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know,
a similar store is many getting dropped off at six
seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm.
At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So
Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the
(03:39):
guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He
played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe,
and then one maybe two years here on the tour
in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name
is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber
in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth
(03:59):
in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has
it related to me? Is it related to so many
the juniors there? We were able to get, you know,
all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these
you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd
done it. So we had this great role model to
look up to for you know, ten twelve years where
(04:20):
I started competitive golf at seven and a you know,
in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour.
I want to play at that high level. I want
to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued
it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach
to just say, hey, how bad do you want it?
Let's push it, and all the way up until about
eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight
(04:42):
hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun.
It was just fun. It never was anything but fun.
Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career,
things started turning. It really started to get to a
point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if
this is going to happen, this is going to happen,
(05:03):
this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe
even a little depression kind of hit. I was able
to sign with a mid major at ball State. I
stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was
too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much
to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into
(05:25):
a dark period at least in my life. But it
was one of those things that taught me a lesson
of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I
love so much. How can I hate it? And you
know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay,
psychology is something that I need to invest my time in.
I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point,
but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob
(05:46):
Winders for a few sessions, and I think.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
We've had him on the show multiple times.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the
way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment,
I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want
to do now. I still love competing. I play at
the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough
to make the US Midydam last year and a good
old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But
(06:11):
I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in
a different light, but golf has always been kind of
the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense.
And I realized during my experiences at All State, during
my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot
of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports,
(06:31):
you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood,
really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right?
So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when
COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started
studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently,
but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life,
(06:54):
many of them in a different place than I was,
is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know,
this game has probably so much joy and so much
passion that there's no way I can leave it.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and
your openness to be able to discuss it. When you
were playing at your best before I guess before you
got to college and you were really obsessed with the
whole thing, at what point did you get to start
recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side,
(07:31):
if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear
and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was
it your golf game that was prompting that?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
It was the scale at home? I was losing ten
pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think
at that point I knew that it was intense. I
knew that it was something that I cared about. I
think as I had conversation in groups with guys that
I had mind, or at least guys that I still
could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are
(08:04):
you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or
you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with
several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's
a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little
bit of a view on the sport of you on
the game that is a little different than maybe I
had in the moment.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance,
anxiety of playing competitively?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where
we have big days, right, we all have whether it's
related to the game, whether it's related to life. We
all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure
if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if
I can keep a full meal with me. Right in
those moments, I think when it got really dark, it
really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to
(08:57):
sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight.
I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down.
But it was still worth it. It was still worth
to get out there and just try my best, and
in that moment the results are still there. But I
think at some point you just start breaking down, why
was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition,
(09:22):
and I love what I built. And I think when
you talk to the very best performers, at least in
our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy,
pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the
sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight,
when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like,
(09:42):
I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen,
I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that
little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the
piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really
good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that.
But I think when the lights turn on, there's a
very different experience there. And that's the at least on
the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous
(10:06):
amounts of joy that I take from being able to
get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys
or any of my poker guys, just in a you know,
it might be one sentence that gives them kind of
the right perspective to be there. You know, I really
enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time
I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds
coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But
what were your parents observing in you and how did
they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take
(10:54):
control of you.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much,
you know, to be very honest, and now I understand
they were investing a lot as well just for me
to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty
yards a week just to be able to afford to
be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already
(11:17):
made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right.
I think when it came to a head when I
did transfer, there was a little bit more at home
that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and
they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two
very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is
a third rail here that you can touch that might
(11:38):
be a little much.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We got a sense of how your parents were reacting
to what you were going through. How about your coaches?
Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and
or were you pushing.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I think it was more an internal thing. I really
had a lot of support and I think throughout, as
I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just
kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he
skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to
FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he
(12:22):
got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He
was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe
in that day he was very type tight with pain.
So he had a lot of time really playing with
the best of that time. So I'll think of things said,
I've really had a lot of support from these coaches.
(12:44):
I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki
at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood
where I was trying to go, very much understood kind
of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you
can see high level coaching come out in a in
an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never
(13:05):
felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate
to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive.
I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically
Home had a lot of support there as well. But
to answer your question, it really was an internal thing
because you know, while it is the greatest pay and
it is the greatest joy, and I was just like,
(13:26):
let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where
was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out,
I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know. I think the stats say that if you
could win three percent on tour year in the Hall
of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether
it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff.
I think that that, frankly, that that might be it.
Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of
(14:06):
the game and just what it is, and also the
competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You
have you have some guys that you know, they work
nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't
do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance,
and I think where all of this has led, at
least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance.
(14:27):
I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put
into work to get good enough to actually test themselves,
whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at
the end of the day, it's what have you built
and what can you try to show off today? And
I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me,
kept me coming back.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So coming back to performance, at what point in your
performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and
that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you
see it?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting
my performance. Still, I still was so I I was
so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the
end of the day, it's just a game, right to us,
It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a
(15:23):
letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling.
No more than two days later, I got a call
from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We
chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay,
well that that's special, right. But at the end of
the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer.
(15:44):
Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in
the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up
on the range or they at least have something to
control on that first t they do calm down. And
I have felt that, at least in my studies, I
found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone,
that is a place of ultimate control. So I will
(16:06):
say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory,
of the three percent win, the three percent success, I
think having that control over something that built, at least
when it counts, is really rewarding.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it
present itself during year round or did did it not?
It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah,
but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally
(16:40):
in it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green,
there there might be the classic we call it arousal.
At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of
has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready,
when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated,
calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know.
(17:05):
I think most great golfers in those moments understand what
understands what takes them to the very best, and they're
able to channel that. But at least for me, and
I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah,
there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think,
without naming too many names, some very large, like big
(17:28):
time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm
not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names,
but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five
of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like,
these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not
eating that, they're just not they're in the same category
(17:51):
as you. WHOA, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should.
I don't want to push on that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think
I just want to remain his trust. But also they're
just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know,
as we progress here, you're in college and you're really
struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when
you're playing.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Did you reach the flow state when you were playing?
Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And
to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective.
It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now,
we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back
and went, oh, I was really locked in there.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment
that I okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You're here, you're a soapbox, come.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger
tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into
your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know,
four or five holes left, I was told by my
coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going
to make it. You know, I've always been on a
really solid you know, I've always been on a really
solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to
(19:29):
that state final, really know, through my through not through
my doing, but through a couple of really great players
that I got to play with. But about four holes left,
I was told that, you know, gave myself four really
good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those
three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John,
(19:51):
you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's
not telling me this, but he's like, all he said
was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often
that's a.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think
it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all
I need is two more pars and I have my
best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because
I never really would have strategically gone for it. If
you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you
know that there is something that needs to happen. But
I only reference it because it is the deepest I've
ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds,
(20:38):
but at least the people that I've interviewed have had
most of the clients that I have that are D one,
two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and
fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three
hours on that. I want to hear everything about it.
But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared.
I got over it, and I do not remember. You know,
(21:01):
all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the
tight little drawl that went out there. And then I
got over a ball at you know, two nine. I
knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit
six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden,
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it.
You just know that you had a six iron in
your hand.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I got over the ball. I remember taking it back.
I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically,
and then you know, you get over this twenty footer.
And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have
high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing
up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us.
(21:41):
But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four
or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I
think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a
twenty footer that really there's no way that I can
explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter
what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in.
And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I
(22:03):
just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and
just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how
flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine.
So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of
a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term
flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does
(22:24):
talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what
flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time.
You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there,
the pieces of the action that you know how to complete,
whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf
all somewhere, context of basketball, Steph Curry, you know what
(22:47):
he can do. Really, there's no need for much rationalization
because you've already done it, you know how to do it,
and it's just full trust in the moment in your
ability to do it. So I reference that because frankly
I don't remember it, and that that's really the only
time I've blacked out. Most individuals that I do interview,
(23:08):
at least for this study, have reported times where okay,
there's kind of a misunderstanding of timing ball slows down,
ball speeds up. If you're a batter at the plate,
ball slows down. Tennis returning a serve that's one hundred
and twenty miles an hour, ball slows down a little bit.
There's something about the state that really can slow and
(23:30):
quick in time depending on the what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So did you egle the hole?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It get going? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
All right, let's bring it back to us. Okay, I mean,
I know this is a fascinating story and I really
appreciate your honesty with this, But this podcast is how
are we going to help the recreational golfer, competitive golfer,
and some off constructors. But how do we help them
(24:03):
understand that it's possible to get into a flow state,
it's possible to release the anxiety and perform better. What
is your approach? Where do you start with that?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I initially start by interviewing. If it's a client, if
it's a friend that's just trying to figure this out.
I want to know the the nitty gritty, the detail,
the thought, the emotion, the feeling of what you know
your best performance has been. Ideally it's within the last
(24:40):
few months. Just something that we can recall accurately. I
want to know the ingredients of success for you. How
do you feel, how do you think? How do you really?
Are you high level motion? Low level motion where you're
having fun? Are you scared? All of that? Within the
viduals that might have other professional obligations, and we're still
(25:04):
talking golf, I'll ask, hey, if you were an executive,
one point, take me through a deal talk, Take me
through negotiation, Take me through a time where you're in
front of a lot of people. Take me through you know,
complex decision making that you've been able to just right.
Flow exists in all of our professional endeavor really, if
(25:24):
you do it a lot, It exists in your life.
If you have gone on any road trip that's north
of one hundred and twenty miles, if I asked you
what happened on mile eighty two, most likely you couldn't
tell me really where that is or what's going on,
or you know, the dog that was barking in the
corner of the road, or the deer that may have
hopped out at you. You might remember if the deer
(25:46):
hopped out, But for the most part, you're in this
flow that is just there. You have trust in your
ability to operate the vehicle there. Golf is really no different,
except it's quite a bit more precise, and I think
that's where we get tripped up on. So really my
first question, more or less is okay, tell me about
this this this nine holes that you just kind of
(26:07):
went down there? You know that it was different. What
was the quality of that? Uh? You know, the next
step beyond that, I'm going to ask, Okay, well, tell
me about last week, tell me about last month, the
last few times you've been out the average or even
the bad And you know, in that conversation, in that interview,
I'm kind of able to you know, dictate, Okay, this
(26:30):
was there, you know, being in the bad performance of
the average performance, this was hair in the great performance.
What what are some of the difference? What are what
are some of the qualities that might be in both buckets,
but what's the difference between the two? And then really
from you know, from there, you know, second and third
base of what we do is more or less building
a process to try to feed those buckets that really
(26:52):
have figured it out.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So is your goal to get a better understanding in
your studies and your PhD dissertation? Are you trying to
get a better understanding of how people get there, or
are you trying to get to a place where you
can assist us in getting there.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think the study, or at least the exercise that
I'm going through currently, is to better describe what it is.
So believe it was in twenty twelve and twenty fifteen
there were two pretty large studies that came out that
basically said, Okay, my zone or my flow, it's going
to be very different than friend's flow, and very different
(27:36):
than Steph Curry's flow, very different than Phil and Tiger, etc.
It's a very unique tied to personality. Maybe not the
personality that you might think of extroverted, introverted, friendly, not friendly,
but personality is more or less a descriptor of just
my difference to you, right. Yeah, at the end of
the day, it's describing it better throughout my code consulting.
(28:01):
Moving forward with that, Yeah, my goal is to try
to help as many types of golfer, very types of
performer as I can. But the study itself is just describing.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I see, I see. But I find it interesting that
you want to bring your subject away from the golf
course into different environments. Yeah, I completely understood, like the
driving analogy is phenomenal. It really it's like, oh, okay,
I get that, and yeah, golf can be that way
as well. I think that I have had rounds where
(28:37):
when I look back on I'm like, oh, that's the
flow state, Like I don't remember, you know, it was
just happening. I wasn't thinking about it. It was just
there and it just felt right, And I didn't try
to analyze it at the time, because I guess if
you try to, hey, I'm in the float. You know,
if you try to do that, you're going to just
(28:59):
fall right out of it. I better not screw up
this next shot.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
But certainly I would even equate it, at least in
your experience being just over a thousand podcasts at this point,
listening back to your podcast, listening back to perhaps a guest,
going down a line of thought to where you may
have not expected it, going down a line of thought
where you're like, Okay, where am I going to go now?
(29:24):
Or what is the question I'm going to ask now,
and just hearing yourself respond with the answer, like maybe
even the textbook question that is up up next, you
might not remember making that decision. I call that flow
as well. I think that that is that is your zone,
because you know you have repetition in it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Right, I'm completely honest. Sometimes that I you know, I
listened to the interview. I edit the interview. Not a
lot of editing is just tightening things up and whatnot
to make it publishable. But Okayaly, I'll listen back to
an episode right just to check how things and I
(30:06):
hear things in it that I never heard when we
were having the conversation. Initially, because I'm looking as we're
having this conversation, I'm looking for doors opening up for
the next question. I'm looking for opportunities to create the
next question. And sometimes obviously and sometimes I miss what
(30:29):
the person's point is, like, oh well, why did I
How did I possibly miss that?
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, So I didn't want to make this about my
doing interviews. I do want to make it more about
how the average golfer can use to get into the
(30:59):
focus and stay without questioning, you know, without rehashing that
last shot that you didn't like, you know, and staying
focused on the next shot, without thinking about the mechanics
of it, because that really is going to that is
the bomb that's going to explode. If you start thinking
(31:19):
about your mechanics, you're going to be in big trouble, right.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I think the illustration that I use that is probably
been most relatable is if I'm in the room with somebody,
I'll have a little red rubber ball, and I'll toss
that rubber ball at them. I'll have them toss it back.
We might toss it back and forth without me even
giving any proper whatsoever, and you know, after a few tosses,
(31:44):
I'll get the rubber ball back and I'll essentially ask
what about your ability or what about that movement? Were
you questioning? What about that moment did you have trust in?
Why did you think that that release point, with that tempo,
with that feed is going to be perfect? How did
you assume that? How did you trust that? Now? That
(32:06):
is a much more simple, much more much less complex
movement than any golf movement, even a two foot putt, right,
It's it's always going to be tricky for us in
some context. My best illustration for that is more or less,
if you're so focused on the target and you understand
(32:26):
that you have a relative ability to send a ball
in that direction, why are we exerting so much more
of a mental effort. Why are we exerting more mental
energy to this move when I've done it a few
thousand times, You've done it a few thousand times. Every
single person that is trying to get help with their
golf swing or their golf game, they've done it enough
(32:49):
to ask the question. So I have a belief that
you know, we've we've invested a lot of time, We've
invested a lot of energy into building whether it's this
you know, more or less a brain pathway or at
least a pattern that we're able to send something or
able to swing in a relatively precise manner, to send
(33:10):
something to a very distinct in small target. You know,
that level of precision usually is not going to be
friendly to over analysis. And this is another special thing
about flow. I believe it was late two thousands, early
twenty tens that they started talking about the physiological nature
(33:31):
of what flow actually is. What happens the prefrontal shuts down,
we still have the same energy budget. We still have
this budget that our brain is operating with. Right even
though the prefrontal, which is complex decision making, shuts down,
we have this excess energy that essentially is able to
go through that back two thirds and you know, without
(33:53):
getting into the nitty gritty, because frankly, I don't have
the physiological knowledge to actually quote all the but that
extra power really turns on a bit of a superman
in us. Because at the end of the day, if
you ever have any time on SAM or track Man
or any of the shot, the more or less the
(34:14):
launch monitors, any of that data, you'll know that this
is a very precise game. And if you are accustomed
to this, to your draw it means that most likely
that face is just a little open, maybe half degree
to and a half degrees, it means that your path
is either relatively flat or maybe coming in zero point
(34:34):
five end out. That's a very precise pattern that we're
able to hit time in and time out. So as
I interview individuals with flow, when I if I interview
the topic of your best round, ever, there isn't a
lot of thought. But how can that be? There's really
there's still a presence of a very precise movement.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You said, turn on superman. I want to know what
you mean by that and how we can do it.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Most studies indicate that focus has to be external. I
think that's rather obvious, at least when we describe that
in the golf context. If I'm thinking about my shoulder,
but think about rotation by thinking about moving onto that
left foot, that right foot, if you're left handed, it's
probably not a great thing. I at least in the
(35:29):
interviews that I've done, there can be one feel or
one swing thought that Okay, we can squeak through that.
That's great. You know, I'm coaching to try to take
these people to very lee levels or trying to take
them into the version of themselves. I still think that
the swing thought is a bit of a bandit. I
(35:50):
think that if we're able to operate just as we
are in the very best moments of our golf game,
there tends to be mindlessness now with its unique It
could be one swing thought, it could be one feel.
But for the most part, I really want individuals to
take a look at Okay, if I'm on the range
(36:12):
getting ready for a round, I'm getting warmed up. But
also the intention of your warm up towards the end
really should be there's a target out there at one
hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to get over
the ball with my express interest, my only thought being
the target. Because we really are only able to think
about one thing at one time, and the intention, or
(36:34):
at least the presence of that last thought right before
you pull the trigger usually is kind of the dictator
of what's happening. The subconscious really can't understand negatives or nose.
So if I'm sitting over and you know a cape
style part three, you know, you see a lot of
those with Pete Tye where there's just this water line
(36:56):
that's going kind of meandering to the right or meandering
to the left for some reason. If we do hit
in the water, relatively good players will hit it in
the water right on that edge right. If they're struggle
with the thought of do not go here, the subconscious
can really only understand the essence of here, what is
do not go out in the water? Oh? Water right?
(37:17):
I think it also come out in interviews that I've
had with really really talented individuals that are able to
play professionally. For the most part, their intention, the clarity
of their thought, is the dictator for pretty much everything
outside of humidity, heat, wind change, getting the wrong number.
In that sense, they don't tend to miss they're really
(37:39):
they're professionals. Right. The only real, large, large mistake that
you'll see is maybe a wrestling with thought at the end,
right before we're pulling the trigger. Keep going, we keep going.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Okay, we're on something here.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think with
your viewers, your listeners, if they really want to fall
into the flow, or at least experience one of their
better performances, I would say, first, take note on what
has already happened. What's the essence of me at my best?
Right number two, when we're warming up, I would take
(38:18):
a look at what can we do in a mindless
sense if I'm getting over the ball. What's the result
when my intention, my focus is just that target, whether
it's a two yard cut, five yard cut, you a
nasty shot to the right, nasty shut to the left,
let yourself just give your subconscious the wheel of okay,
take control of this. At the end of the day,
(38:40):
I do believe that when we no matter what level
we play at, if we're confident in our ability to
send it to hopefully a good destination, we're able to
play relatively unfettered golf, whatever level it is. So I
always like to visualize heavily behind the ball. I like
to see the shot tracker, just as we see on
(39:01):
CBS or or on golf channel. I want to see that,
and if I'm on the greens, I want to see
that ball roll on that track right before I end it.
Jack Nicholas always said that his warm ups were basically
to understand who did I bring today? Did I bring
the two yard cut? Did bring the three yard cut?
Did I bring the one yard drawl? Basically you'd say, okay,
(39:23):
I brought the two yard cut today, I'm going to
go dance with the two yard cut, and he would
stay committed to that shot. But I can almost guarantee
you the essence of Nicholas's thought was, where am I
going with this? I'm a professional. I can send it
to the direction or the distance that is required. The
focus must be there. So for your viewers that have
played basketball or any target warriented game, if I'm at
(39:46):
a dartboard, I'm focusing on that triple twenty, I'm probably
If you're really good at darts, you're probably focusing on
a portion of that triple twenty. If you're really really
good at basketball, you're probably focusing on that half inch
front piece of the rim. You're not focused on anything internal?
Why on earth will be focus internal and golf? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah. We recently had Josh Xander on a couple months
ago and do you know, Josh, do you know he
is oh okay? And I've found this quote that I
presented to him and says, instead of focusing on twenty
two percent of your game that isn't going right, take
the glass half full approach and appreciate seventy eight percent
(40:31):
of the game that's working for you that day. Yes,
have the awareness to play towards your.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Strengths, right, that's right?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And yeah, I mean I think that you may have
come up with the title of this episode about what
can we achieve in a mindless state?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
You know, how far can we go that the key
in that mindless state is walking into the ball completely
agnostic to what's happened before, what's happened, what hopefully is
happening in front. Right. I think at the end of
the day, we play a game that is rather drawn out.
(41:13):
If you play competitively, you're going to have to more
or less be on the ball for forty eight or
fifty four hours. Yes, you might be in the hotel room,
you might be the restaurant, etc. But when you're on
the golf course, you have to be locked in. It's
going to be four and a half hours of that.
Do that a few times in a row. A lot
of scarring, a lot of emotion, a lot of intensity
can build up. But I think at the end of
(41:35):
the day, flow is relatively agnostic to emotion. When we're
operating at our very best, it's a bit of an
emotionless process until that final put drops the car. Analogy
even really talking to clients about their professional endeavors, when
they're succeeding, when they're doing well, when they're getting things done,
(41:59):
it's just business usual. It's really not something that is
an abnormal rollercoaster of events. That's not how you run
a business. That's not how you lead people. You have
to lead people through consistency, relentless consistency. I think at
the end of the day, with golf, it is the
ultimate challenge on staying more or less agnostic emotionally. As
(42:22):
it's so precise. We will have you know, misses and yeah,
please don't quote me, but it was a legend, legend
of the game. I think it was Hogan or Hagan
that said, basically, he budgeted four bad swings into a round.
Every single round. He budgeted the fact that I am
completely an acceptance of four essentially gimmes. It's not that
(42:46):
he's re hitting or anything, but he essentially said, hey,
if I make a bad swing or just chop it up,
cops are doing business right. And you know, any of
those guys that made a name for themselves back in
the day relentlessly incredible ball strikers, they just don't really nice. Uh.
And you know, for that kind of player to say,
(43:08):
you know what, at four times, I'm going to give
myself grace. Every single round, I'm gonna give myself grace
four times. So I think it's it's kind of looking
in the mirror at whatever stage you're at. If you're
a competitive, you know, tour pro, if you're a recognercial player,
if you're a mid am, if you're a college player,
probably more than four times you're going to let yourself down, right.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, you definitely need to budget a little bit more
than four. Yeah, and for for you know, the people
that I play with and at my level, it's like
budget budget for one per hole and then leave your
and be nice to yourself.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I think the uh maybe a good way to
wrap up what flow is and how to fall into
it is relentless acceptance, because I think the greatest sin
is it relates to performance psychology in the game of
golf is allowing one swing to impact multiple, one situation
to impact multiple, one bad balance to impact multiple. We
(44:11):
play an imperfect game in imperfect air on imperfect surfaces.
So if we don't have an acceptance attitude, it's going
to be a little harder than it should be. And
I will say that maybe some of your listeners, it
takes time. Over time. You know, if you have the
attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
(44:34):
There's still going to be headwinds there, it's still going
to be difficulties, But in time, it's more or less
a rationalization that you know, this is the better path.
I always like to say that in certain context, released
in golf context, that mental toughness really is a rationalization
that this is the best path. I'm not going I'm
gonna choose not to respond to this in a highly
(44:55):
emotional state, because I know that a highly emotional state
is going to impact next, maybe even impacts one after that.
So I think at the end of the day, flow
is all about relentless consistency and relentless acceptance.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Wow, I got to write that one down an acceptance,
and I love the line flow is agnostic to emotion.
That's really powerful stuff. Maybe that's the title of episode.
I don't know. So are you publishing your findings and
(45:37):
your work online? How do we learn more about what
you're doing?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
John, late May, early June. I'll have it available twenty
twenty five, Yes, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
It's a podcast.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
We have to say that, so I haven't gotten used
to that. Yeah. In short order, I'm going to have
some interviews that will be rather interesting. I do believe
that a lot of the commentary there is going to
be a little bit more academic, but I'm going to
try to kind of more or less summarize it in
a readable fashion and have that available on my website
(46:10):
probably probably late June, early July. At that point, I
can't say that I'm writing anything currently. I'm mainly working
with clients, is it currently? But yeah, I hope to
get some more information about the findings because I do
believe that in its individual nature it is. Really it's
(46:32):
still at this point academia is still kind of stretched
their head. It's okay, we know that this is here,
but we can't really describe what it is and why
is it or how do I experience it or how
does somebody else experience it. So hoping to bring a
little bit more clarity to that. But as it relates
to golf, I just hope to help individual shoot some
(46:53):
lower scores here soon.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Well, I really appreciate the journey that we took with
you in how we started out for your golf journey
and then brought it to your studies and your thesis
really fascinating and thank you and best of luck man,
and let's stay in touch.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me Fred
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.