Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A lot of research on the history and transmission of
Western esotericism and how it relates to Western Christian thought
in particular and Protestantism, and recently started kind of delving
into how it infiltrated the Catholic Church as well. But
(00:21):
you know, these subjects all kind of are very closely intertwined, and.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
With what we're talking about today. I found that there's
a root in it that stems from Kabbalah, which is
Jewish mysticism, and kind of the outcome of it being
the establishment of the Zion Estate and your Orthodox correct Yes, yes, yes,
(00:52):
I am an Orthodox. I'm an Orthodox Christian.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I've been Orthodox for five years now. So I kind
of have the I guess, common adult convert story, you know,
during COVID and just being worn out and tired from
the tremendous amount of psyops during that time, and had
(01:15):
the usual kind of spiritual awakening that you commonly hear.
So I don't think my conversion story is particularly unique,
but yeah, it was around it was actually in the
height of COVID that I started attending Orthodox Church.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So wonderful, wonderful. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I was teasing this episode at the end of my
last one, and I started thinking about it afterwards, I said,
next week, this subject is a spicy one, and it
really only is because it's somewhat shatters some presuppositions, some
framework that people have. There's nothing like means spirited or
(02:02):
dark or something that we're putting out there with with
this topic.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It's only considered spicy because it's like.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Ooh, that's going to shatter some people's preconceived notions or
some long held beliefs that aren't necessarily true.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
How do you see this sort of topic?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And for those going what is he beating around the Bushwar,
we're talking about a well for one of the Kabbala,
the Reformation, Zionism, et cetera. So you get the picture.
But do you think this is I don't know, taboo
or spicy topic?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And why is it?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
If it is, I think that it's it's probably seen
that way in the West because this Zionist agenda has
been targeting the West in primarily America. So you know,
it's all framed within this context where you you can't
(03:00):
criticize it at all. Any degree of criticism is considered
anti semitic. Uh. You know, even if you are Jewish.
Many of these writers and researchers that I drew from
we were in fact Jewish, and they were anti Zionists,
and they even were criticized of being you know, anti
Semitic or this, you know quote self hating jew or something.
(03:23):
So you know, and in academia you'll lose your job
over it if you if you publish any work that's
somewhat critical of Zionism, so.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know, and then how it's merged.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
With evangelical evangelicalism.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
In in in the West as well.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know, it's kind of seen as this like you know,
I guess they're using a lot of the same talking.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Points the evangelicals.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
But you know, I don't think it's particularly taboo in
the in the East. I mean, we've we have some
contemporary saints such as Saint Paasius, who has even condemned
the the silence of there's a there's a famous work
(04:13):
that he did. Uh it's called it I think it's
called something like if the met if the if.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
The bishops are silent, who will speak?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And he's talking about Zionism and and basically how you know,
none of these hierarchs are even condemning it, at least
at his time, So you know that there is kind
of I guess the level of silence even to that degree,
But I just don't think it's as particularly taboo uh
(04:44):
in the in the East. I mean, this has been
a long held position for two thousand years that the
Church is Israel.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, I I went to Mount Athos last summer
with father Peter Hears and do you know Conrad from
World Now, good friend of mine? Yea, Conrad was with us.
Oh that's right, you actually, I've you've been on his show.
He was with me too. And it's funny like in
(05:13):
certain circles over here, Conrad's considered like, oh he talks
about taboo's subject or he's ultra radical or something. But
we noticed talking too, many of the monks that we
encountered and sat with they sound like him, Like there
was nothing that he was saying and open discussion with
(05:37):
him that was seen as taboo at all. And I
thought it's funny some of the let's say, subversive factions
within Orthodoxy that pretend like people like Conrad or some
sort of aggressive far right fascist or something or other
like that, if they heard these monks on man at
those like, what would they say about them?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
They sounded similar to when we talked about geopolitics and
stuff like that. So I want to get into first
of all, we talk about the Reformation a lot. It's
also funny like if we start critiquing the Protestant Reformation
in the same way that we're tying it in with
Zionism and some of these ideas, you can be called
(06:23):
anti Semitic at certain points, but no one ever calls
you anti Christian.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's weird.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
But how how is the Reformation in your viewed scene,
let's say, not from your perspective, but your perspective on
how the Reformation is viewed widely in American Christian Christianity.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Let's say there is almost like this messianic idea of
the of the Reformation, like Luther's almost perceived as a
Messianic type figure who rescued Christianity from apostas you know,
from fifteen hundred years of apostasy which started at whatever
some arbitrary point.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I mean, you can ask any Protestant when did.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
The when did when did Christianity they divert from what
you think is the original Apostolic faith, and you'll get
a different answer from almost every Protestant, I mean, because
they can't really define that. So, you know, Luther Nail's
the ninety five thesis to the Doors of Wittenberg, and
(07:26):
it's seen as kind of this you know, messianic rescue
of Christianity. And you know, in the context of history,
the Reformation took place in fifteen seventeen, and I'm fascinated
by this two hundred year span which has kind of
(07:50):
framed modern history.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
In these revolutionary movements.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so I view the Reformation as the longest ongoing
revolution in world history because it's still underway and it's
just spreading in its reach, and it's been going on
for five hundred years. So I viewed as a revolutionary
movement and one that was born from technology. It would
(08:20):
not have been possible without print technology helping advance its spread.
It runs parallel with the establishment of secret societies throughout
the West, and you have fifteen seventeen, the Reformation starts
two hundred years later, the Constitution of Freemasonry assigned in
(08:41):
seventeen seventeen, establishing the first Masonic lodge in London. And
then what happens two hundred years later in nineteen seventeen
the signing of the Balfour Decoration and the Russian Revolution
is underway.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So I always just found that really interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
But you know, I see, to answer your question, I
see the Reformation as this pivotal kind of dispensation I
guess if you want to call it that in uh
in world history, ah, that ushered in the the mass
acceleration of nominalism, you know, capitalism. A lot of these
(09:24):
en Zionism. I mean, that was kind of the inevitable
conclusion of it. I know that not every Protestant is Zionist.
I would never say that, but when you look at
the history and see how in the eighties or in
the seventeenth century, how this all really started to integrate
with the English Puritans and they're consulting of cabalistic rabbis
(09:49):
and Messy, you know, these these messianic cults, these millenarians.
That that was the the way in which this you know,
this messianic fervor, I guess, started to spread. So, you know,
we can get more into how Kabala relates to that,
(10:10):
but you know, it involves the human the human effort
in bringing about the conditions for the Messianic age.
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Just now, the Kabbala? What this obviously played a role
(11:24):
in the reformation and and other dispensationists excuse me dispensations
if you will, But what is the Kabbala?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
First? Can we I want to like kind of lay
the groundwork. What it is? When was it put together?
What is this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So it's it's Jewish mysticism and it so it's main
it's mainly comprised of two texts, although it's not a
it's not text text based, So it was just written
at you know, during the Middle Ages. And then there's
(12:00):
debate over when it actually started its oral transmission. The
Kabbalists themselves will say say that it started when uh
with with Moses, when when the angels communicated with Moses,
or when God communicated with Moses and it was transmitted
through you know this this esoteric kind of cryptic secrecy. Uh.
(12:23):
The Hebrew language is perceived as itself as this you know,
divinely influenced language that the heavenly bodies communicate with. So
you know that that the real I guess founding of
kabbala Is is uh disputed. But in the written form,
(12:47):
it's pretty much a Middle Ages document, if you want
to call it a document, and it's comprised of the Zohar,
which is the book of Creation. And this is kind
of this Jewish mystical interpretation of Genesis or I'm sorry
that it's I got it the other way around this.
The the suffer Rah is the commentary on Creation. It's
(13:11):
called the Book of Creation and the Zohar is kind
of like an extension of Ash the Book of Wonder,
I believe it's called.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And so there's these two, you know, it's these two
texts that combine.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And this is the the framework in which uh, mystical
Judaism understands the world itself. So this is how they
perceive reality itself down to the creation uh, the divine
heavenly realm and how it is manifest in the physical realm.
(13:49):
And and this is I would say, inseparable from from
modern Judaism.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
When you're talking about you know, is in the Middle
Ages and is sort of when we think it came
about or whatever. And it was a Jewish mysticism.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
To clarify the Jews of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
That's not the Jewish people we're talking about with the Kabbala.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Correct, correct, Yeah, it's a it's a modern So there's
a there there's a distinction between modern and classical Judaism. Yes,
and when you discuss that, yeah, so this is a
distinction that was made by Israel Shahak who wrote the
(14:36):
book Jewish History Jewish Religion, and he makes a distinction
that basically at at during the Middle ages, you have
this adoption of of Kabbala, which which kind of became
like the new form of Judaism, like this new mystical
(14:59):
form of of Judaism that that kind of replaced the
classical Judaism.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And now that's not to.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Say that even classical Judaism isn't Talmudic. So you know,
you had for all that time the following of of
the Talmud as the primary text of Judaism. It still is,
but you know, the Talmut is basically a bunch of laws.
It's how to how to in your day to day
(15:26):
life as a Jew follow the Mosaic law down to
some really hilarious and excruciating details.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
The Kabbala is what kind of is like the.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Blueprint of reality and and and so you know there's
something I left out. But Kabbala actually has a goal
as well, which is this notion of tikan o Lam,
which means world repair. Right and and so when modern
Judaism came about, and especially with the aablishment of the
(16:00):
State of Israel, this is what actually liberalized the Jews.
This is what got them involved in all of these
liberal causes. The studying of secular literature, involvement in UH
and entertainment in comedy. These things were unheard of in
classical Judaism. They were actually forbidden and again Israel Shahawk
(16:22):
talks about this. They were actually forbidden from making jokes
unless it was a joke about another religion. And they
were pretty much sheltered from UH from secular literature. They
were only really involved in studying their Jewish texts. So, yeah,
there's a distinction. We're not talking about the you know,
(16:45):
the heat the Hebrew people in the Old Testament. The
modern modern Judaism is a completely.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
New thing. You know.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You can talk about like how the Pharisees were can
dens by Christ, you know, for probably following to the Talmud,
which you know came from their Babylonian captivity, you know,
to the letter of the Law, all that kind of stuff.
But you know, so that was always there. But yeah,
what we're talking about is like kind of this uh
(17:19):
more like mid you know again Middle Ages kind of invention.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And what is that world repair that you're talking about?
Why repair for from what?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, so there's kind of a in the suffer it's
ra the Book of Creation, It's it's kind of this
is how like inverted kabbala is like they it teaches
that during the creation there was a like a shattering
of all these vessels. So when when God created the
(17:55):
world and the light from God's creation permeated did the
material world, it shattered all of these like vessels. You know,
it's like kind of again, this is all esoteric language.
It would take a while to break down, but basically,
like the way I interpret it is that it's almost
like God didn't factor in this crucial thing where he
(18:19):
essentially broke creation.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So like for the cobblests, it wasn't Man.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
That like the fall of Man was was basically this
kind of like error in creation.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It wasn't due to man Man's fall. It wasn't due
to Adam sin.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
In fact, they believe that Adam was the one that
expelled God from the garden.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, and so this is what they aim to repair.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Is so they believe it was basically God that you know,
shattered all these vessels and it's man's job to restore
the shattered vessels. This gets into this doctrine, which is
one of the essential doctrines.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Of Balah, of what they call Chakaina, which is the.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Manifest They believe it's the manifestation, like the physical manifestation
of God's glory. So this is what this is how
God was present in the in the Tabernacle, behind the
Holy of Holies and the Chicaina. This is this is
what kind of ties into Zionism because the Chicaina was
(19:25):
what was expelled from the garden. So God's presence was
expelled from the garden. There was this separation, it was exiled,
and so this plays into their exile narrative.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
There was a spiritual aspect to this.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And so they identify and by the way, the Chicaina,
they interpret it as the feminine half of God. So
there's this ongoing effort of man of the Kabbalists to
restore this union with God through Theurgic Ritual, among.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Many other things.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
But you know, it depends which sect of Judaism you're
talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
The reform Jews, for example, are the ones.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Who are are more involved in progressive causes. They think
that that's how they're going to restore the world. Yeah,
you know, there's a strong aspect of a humanism with it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So all right, I want to ask about.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
How this influenced then the Reformation and what part of
the Kabbala, and this sect of Judaism did influence the Reformers.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So I want to be careful in how I frame this,
because I don't think that there was this really obvious,
strong influence of Kabbala with at least with the three
primary Reformers. There was, however, a strong Jewish influence because
(21:02):
all three Reformers they were heavily involved in in translation
work when they were writing the Bible, when they were
you know, writing it in their languages, and so to
do that they needed to consult rabbis to learn Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That was, those were the only people who knew Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And by doing that there was this transmission of you know,
whether it was firsthand or second hand, this transmission of
cabalistic influence just by sheer relation of the of the
rabbis being Cobbalists. And you know, there's some there's some
figures that were that were more influential among all three reformers.
(21:42):
But you know, I don't think that, Like I wouldn't
argue that all three of the Reformers were like cryptocobolists
or something, right. I think that the more undeniable influence
came later in the seventeenth century among the English Puritans.
But that came as a result of just being kind
of steeped in all this Hebraic studies.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And and again consulting.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
These rabbis who some of them like like a Rabbi
Manassa ben Israel. They were involved in the establishment of
these secret societies.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
They were working with other.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Other Puritan ministers who were expressing strong sentiments and and
interest in kabbala.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So you know, that didn't really come in.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
An undeniable way until I would say, about a century later.
But you know, I think if you want to talk
about like esotericism, there was definitely an influence there, and
especially in Germany, uh And and particularly in Wurtemberg, which
was this at the time in the sixteenth century, a
(22:53):
hotbed of esoteric studies. So there was a lot of
you know, you had the strong pre sresence of the
Rascrucians there. Yes, there was a one of the primary
like kind of headquarters of the Rossacrucion order was was
in was in Germany. And you see for centuries these
(23:13):
locations were basically remained hotbeds for dissemination of esotericism in
the West.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
What is the whose site revolution.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Okay, yeah, so the this was a proto proto Reformation revolution.
The so John huss led the the Hussite Revolution. I
don't I didn't go into like great detail on this
in in my articles, but so I haven't done extensive
(23:49):
research on it.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But there was, you know, there's a Hussite war.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
They were the Hussites were obsessed with the Old Testament,
and they kind of like viewed themselves as the as
like the inheritors of the of the Old Testament, of
the Old Covenant. And and this was I believe two
(24:14):
to three hundred years prior to the Reformation. These were
the original Sola scriptura. People like these were the first
guys to kind of like break off from the Catholic
Church and say we can do all this interpretation on
our own. And and huss by the way, was attributed
(24:35):
in one of Luther's forwards I believe, and and I
forget which commentary, but you know he had an influence
on Luther. You had the John Wycliffe, I believe was
related to the Hussites.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So a lot of.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
The the proto reformers were linked to the Hussites.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And and was there some sort of impact with the
with this stuff we're talking about right now, UH starting
the concept of solid faith alone.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So there there was a source that I found in
my research that and this is directly from Luther, where
he attributes sola fide to true Kabbala and this was in.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
His commentary to the Galatians.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I did have a discussion with some Lutherans who were
very well versed in UH in the history, and I've
revised some of my research on this, but I think
it's I mean, it's still there. Like the fact that
it's still there and he's referring to Kabala at least,
at the very least, it is an indicator that there
(25:58):
was a you know, an un.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Understanding of of what that even means.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
He's writing to other Christians and he's talking about true
Kabbala as a sola fida being true Kabbala. Now you
could read that and say, well, that's a direct like
that's a smoking gun right there, that he's just attributing
it to this Jewish mystical idea.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You can also say that it was.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
A reference to this notion that UH, which was understood
in the in the Renaissance where this stuff all emerged,
that Kabbala was the way in.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Which the Bible is to be interpreted.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
So this is how the Renaissance, what they were, they
were called Christian Cobbalists were understanding the use of cabala.
The the syncretization of Kabala with Christianity was that this
was the only proper lens to interpret the Bible in.
So Luther could have been saying something like this is how,
this is how you truly understand the Bible, not through
(27:02):
the Cabala. But I still think the point stands that
you know, the fact that he was referencing it shows
how big of an influence that there was in Christian theology.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier that you could ask various Protestants
and hear different answers about when did like Apostolic succession
die off? And there's always this concept of like just
a long dark period of time and then boom Luther
comes along. And was there a feeling of the minute
(27:34):
of the reformers.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Of going back to what was?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Or do you think it was destroying what was and
creating something new? A mix of both of those things,
because I know there was some iconoclasm involved in this
stuff too. Can you talk about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I think it was. It was both.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I mean, in order to kind of go back to
what they thought was Apostolic Christianity. It involved destruction of
the uh, the old order as as historians call it
the Old Order. I don't know that the the prostant
reformers would have called it that. And and so that
(28:13):
involved the yeah, the destruction of you know, the ransacking
of these Catholic churches. To be fair, it was primarily
Calvin and Zwingli's revolutions that were very staunchly iconoclastic. Luther
(28:34):
was not as as much of an iconoclass like he
definitely wasn't a believer in venerating images, but he wasn't
like they need to be removed from the churches. So
like to this day Confessional Lutherans, they still I believe
have at least icons of Christ and the Theotokos if
I'm not mistaken, Okay, but you.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Know, they don't venerate them.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But yeah, Calvin Wingley were the primary, the primary utribute
attributors to the iconoclastic revolts that occurred in the following
centuries after the Reformation. Sowingley was the most iconoclassic of
(29:20):
all of them.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Calvin.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
People will say Calvin wasn't an iconoclass, but he didn't
condemn any of the Calvinist iconoclasm that was occurring in
his lifetime, So I take that to be he wasn't
a he wasn't opposed to iconoclasm.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
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and the T shirt will be yours. And I want
to ask two about this is fascinating because it's it
might feel like it's jumping around, but there's like a strain,
a lineage through here.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Cabala's influence on the Founding Fathers. Yeah, yeah, this is.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
One that I uh, I get a lot of blowback from.
But I mean it's very so with with the Founding Fathers. Again,
I want to I want to frame this in a
way that it's like, I'm not saying the Founding Fathers
were cobbleists, but the influence, Like you can see that
the influence was there, because there's a let that Thomas
(31:01):
Jefferson wrote to John Adams where he is urging him
to look into all of these Jewish texts and he's
naming them. He's naming the Mishnah, Kabbala, the Zohart, like
all these I don't think he says Kabala, but he
names like the Seffrigettra, the Zohar, like all these Jewish
mystical texts, and he says that we need to look
(31:22):
into this to understand how to frame the morals and
ethics of the kind of the of our nation. And so,
you know, the question is like, how does he know
about that? And why is it even like why does
he feel that's necessary?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
So I don't think, you know, and there was there
was actually some evidence that there was coblistic influence with
with Benjamin Franklin. Who was he met with. I think
it was Ezra Stiles, who was the president at Yale
University and is a Christian Cobbalist. I think more more so,
(32:05):
you know, with with a different kind of like a
I guess, a more.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Evolved approach to it. But he was.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
He has a famous quote saying that he believed that
Kabbala was worthy of transmission throughout American universities.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So you know, he he had met Franklin.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Had met with Ezra's styles to inquire about Kabbala.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And we see in the.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Iconography of the founding of the United States with you know,
simply on the dollar bill.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You can just look at the dollar bill and everyone.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Kind of like interprets that as Masonic, which is which
is true. But Freemasonry is also a combalistic institution. So
a lot of the symbology is combalistic. And and so
what I was talking about earlier, the Chicaina that appears
on the dollar bill.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Above the bald eagle.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
You know, everyone points to the pyramid and it's like
on the other side of the pyramid, on the back
of the one dollar bill, there's also a kabbalistic image
of the quote Chicaina glory, which is the cloud of
glory that the Puritans saw as the guiding force that
took them across the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And so this is like a sign of freedom to them.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And and so that's depicted on the back of the
one dollar bill. You could argue that there's a clear
star quote star of David inside of that cloud that's
kind of outlined by the thirteen stars. Thirteen is also
a you know, very important number in Kabbala.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And and you know, there's a legend.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
That this guy heim Solomon who helped fund the Civil War,
that was a kind of a nod from from Washington
to show his debt to Heims Solomon for helping fund
the Revolutionary War.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wow, I did not know that part. What just people,
if you've got dollars, look at him. What does the
Chicaina look like? Well, it's usually depicted like a cloud.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
So and you even hear this this was I grew
up Protestant and I heard Chicina.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Being taught from the pulpit.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Oh you did, Oh yeah, yeah, like all the Chicao glory.
I mean, there's I've found clips of RCI Sproll preaching
about this. It's in his work, It's in It's in
h John MacArthur has reference. It's in the MacArthur Study Bible.
I actually did a search on this. That appears nineteen
times in the MacArthur's Study Bible.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
And yeah, I think that's in my footnotes. Yeah, and
it and it was. It was.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
It was also added as a section heading and I
believe uh first chronicles in the a New American Standard
translation it says the Chicina glory. So this word Chikina,
it doesn't even it doesn't appear anywhere in the Old
Testament Hebrew. It's it's purely a Jewish mystical concept.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I'm looking up. I wonder if I could search Chicaina
John Hagy. I'm suspecting. I know for a fact he
talks about it.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, does, But I mean that I use that as
kind of like evidence to show It's like my question
is basically like, Okay, if you want to doubt all
of this history, you want to say that I'm kind
of crafting this narrative that isn't there. Why is it
that these preachers who are still alive today, these highly
influential evangelical preachers still use this term. And again I'm
(35:47):
not saying that that means they study kabbala. I think
actually they probably have no idea that it's kabalistic.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
For the most part.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
The thing is that the presence of this this doctrine
is still there in prostant or in evangelical theology. But yeah,
but to answer your question, it's usually depicted as a
cloud because it's perceived to be the you'll hear even
the the evangelicals will say this, it's the the manifestation
(36:16):
of God's glory. So it's like it appeared as a
cloud above the arc when they were you know, when
the Hebrews are traveling around the arc, so they they
kind of perceive it to be like the the manifestation
of God's glory. And I'm and I'm a I'm not
even saying that this is like a false teaching, but
the fact that it's like attributed to this cabalistic concept
(36:39):
is is pretty sus Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
And it's even if I mean, even if the preachers
don't know specifically where it comes from or that it's
uh kabbala esque in nature, that just shows you how
and like how woven into the fabric of what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
This this stuff is really and I.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
How does this lead to, in your opinion, Zionism Basically.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, the so uh in Kabbala again, chakaina is very
closely tied to like the idea the Jewish identity of
exile and and how human effort can restore this divine
union of God that you know that they or that
God himself kind of or that I guess that humans
(37:34):
you know, expelled from from Man, expelled from the garden, whatever,
and so you know, probably a pretty shocking example of
this can be seen in modern Judaism. I think probably
most of your listeners are familiar with the prayer ritual
(37:54):
that you might have seen images of at the quote
whaling Wall, where we'll see these Orthodox Jews, you know,
at the wall and they're doing this kind of thrusting motion.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
This is a a.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Literal sexual theorgy that occurs to restore chakina, because Chakina
is the feminine half of God.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And so there's a literal.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Notion of like this sexual copulation that that involves the
restoring the the.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
The broken union of of God with the Chakaina.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
So it's very bizarre, and you know, you see stuff
like this and it's like, where is that in the
Old Testament, right right? Like that that's kind of like
a good indicator that this is a different religion, like
this is a completely alien religion Israel. Shahak also talks
about how, uh, this is a this is an indicator
(38:59):
that modern Judaism became polytheistic because they have, like you know,
all of these other kind of deities that they refer to.
There's there's the the the Father, and then there's the
kind of like the divine mother who's the Chakaina, and
then they have children. They have like a divine daughter
(39:19):
and a divine son. So there's almost like a pantheon
of of of these like cabalistic deities and and uh
Shahak and I'm gonna see if I can find this quote,
but I'm gonna quote. I'm going to try to quote
directly from Shahaka on this. He says, uh so, on
(39:40):
the one, on one of these two occasions, uh, the
he the Cobbalist is worshiping God by promoting the divine
union of son and daughter. But on the other he
is worshiping Satan, who likes Jewish prayers and ritual acts
so much that when he has offered a few of them,
it keeps him busy for a while and he forgets
the paestor of the Divine Daughter. This is like a
(40:01):
totally schizophrenic religion. I mean, it's just they're literally like,
so they're praying to Satan that he doesn't bother them
on the Sabbath and that instead he bothers the gentiles.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Who can can you tell me again who you were
quoting there?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Oh, yeah, that's Israel Shahak who wrote he was a
So this isn't like a weirdo conspiracy text. He was
a He was a scholar and a professor, a Jewish.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Actually he was raised Zionist and he was a professor
at University of Jerusalem, and he wrote this this book
that was, you know, I guess, very controversial at the time,
where he went into detail exposing the uh you know,
the the atrocities and and the injustices of the Zionist state,
(40:54):
the creation of the Zionist state, and how the how
the Jews view the gentile and how it justified like
the religious justification for the treatment of the non Jews.
So really really important texts that I wish more people
would read. It's kind of not as known for obvious reasons,
but you know, he goes into some pretty shocking details
(41:19):
on the spiritual end of how you know, like why
this stuff is justified?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
On that note, there's also the first the first chief
rabbi of Palestine who has it's kind of a funny name.
It was Rabbi Cook, but it's spelled Kook. But he
was a Cabalistic rabbi who gave these details of like
(41:47):
you know, they interpret the Cobbalists interpret the Gentiles as
Satan worshippers.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Or like the children of Satan.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So you know, he goes into like all this relig
just justifications for the treatment.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Of of you know, women and children.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Uh they're they're perceived to be less than uh, less
than dogs, like less than animals. So you know that
the like understanding this stuff is really it helps you
to understand why this is occurring, Like why are they
you know, we're we're kind of being bombarded with all
these images of these horrific images of uh, you know,
(42:25):
babies and children and stuff that are like really violent
acts committed towards them.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I wish that I hadn't seen this stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
But you know, you look at an image like that,
it's like why, like why is that happening? And a
lot of people who don't have an answer for that,
they just think like, oh, well, they hate us or something,
but it's actually like they think that this is their duty.
Israel was founded upon this, this these this violence. It
was founded on terrorism. It happened in the first three
(42:56):
months of the founding of the zion Estate. There were
horrific acts of terrorism that were being committed on the Palestinians.
And you know, like I don't even want to go
into detail on the stuff they were doing.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
It was just horrific.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
And this was all funded with even at that time,
even in the nineteen forties, this was funded with US money.
So sorry, I got in a little bit of agent there,
but yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Yeah, it was great. That's exactly where I was going
with this. Why was it funded with US money? Might
we asked?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, well so the whole creation of the Zionist state.
And then this is another text that I just recently
read called It Against Our Better Judgment, which is incredibly
well researched. There was actually more footnotes in this book
than there are than there is primary texts. There's like
almost one hundred pages of footnotes, incredibly well researched piece
(43:57):
on the hidden history of how the US was essential
in the creation of Israel and the whole operation was
founded in deceit, conspiracy, blackmail, propaganda.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
It's just incredible.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It was through the education system, through the media, through entertainment.
It was a huge operation. And it's still ongoing obviously,
but you know there there's there's references in here to Uh,
to Truman, how how Truman was saying that the most
immense pressure that he ever experienced in his presidency was
(44:42):
the pressure from the Israel lobby. And this is I
mean again, this is Truman, Like, this is not a
new thing. This was from the onset of the creation
of Israel.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
This was occurring.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
And and so you know, it was all these organizations
that were just funneling money.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
It's the same as what you see today.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I mean, it's just all through why's deceit propaganda And
you know, again this isn't a conspiracy. You can read
this all in the history. It's very well researched and
it's from primary sources, and it's quote you can have,
you can see the quotes from these figures themselves talking
about this.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
This isn't speculative. Why was this? Why though? Why? Why? Why?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like there's no other nation that's that small, that's putting
forth this much influence and power over an empire.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
US. Why why is this? I mean I.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Think, well, first of all because of the geopolitical force
that is the United States, and then also because of
the probably because of the evangelical population as well.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So like a lot of people don't know this, but
you know.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
They'll they'll say, you know, most people will will know that, like, oh,
the Schofield Bible was like the big, big thing that
kind of started all this, And actually the Schofield Bible is.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Kind of more of like the nail on the coffin
that that kind of helped the garner support from US evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
H and Darby didn't really have much to do with
it in the US.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
He was more influential in the in the UK, but
not in the US. So Americans were kind of the last.
American evangelicals were kind of the last to sign on
to this, and that's why the Schofield Bible was, you know,
became pretty important, but it was the whole reason why
the Schofield Bible was necessary, which was again.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Because there wasn't a lot of like it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
A popular idea in the US, but the Zionists saw
the US like like, the US as a stronghold, as
a Zionist stronghold that they had to capture. So you know,
you see again some of the language and these figures.
I mentioned this Rabbi Cook Kouk or whatever earlier, and
there's a quote from him where he said, he says,
(47:09):
let me see if I can find this here.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
So Abraham Kuk, the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of British
Mandatory Palestine, studied the Kabbala and Hegelian philosophy.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Hegel, by the way, was also very influenced by.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Kabbala, concluding that God had used all of history to
divinely conspire to return the Jews to Palestine, and that
he had used even the actions of Pagans in apparent operition, opposition,
and persecution of the Jews to do so. The fundamentalist
sect Gush and Newman, led by the son of Rabbi Kuk,
(47:46):
vigorously pushed for Messianic redemptionist interpretation of the settlement of
new territories acquired by Israel in the Sixth Day War,
which it believed had been divinely granted and therefore could
not be surrendered.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
And then there's a later quote from him where he.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Says that it would not have been possible the creation
and David Benguri and the first Prime Minister of Israel
also said this that they would not the creation of
design state.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Would not have been possible without American support.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
So, you know, for probably multiple reasons that I'm oversimplifying,
there was a tremendous need for this to be a
popular idea among Americans to gain support.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
When you were Protestant and attending Protestant church on a
regular basis, was it preached to you and or did
you believe that it was biblical that the modern state
of Israel was founded?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, I mean you're taught that.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
And again it depends, I guess which denomination you are.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
But I think this is at.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
This point become pretty much almost a dogma of evangelical
theology at least. But you're taught that there is that
this is a fulfillmentive prophecy, and and so it's all geographical.
It's not it's not that the church is Israel, it's
that it's actually.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
The land and the and the borders that.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Define Israel, which itself is is kind of a ridiculous
idea because even the the Zionists and Schahak talks about this,
he actually lays out the understanding of what defines those borders,
and like the the more extreme views is that it
even extends into Egypt, so they have even a much
broader scope of what those borders even are.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
A Gaza is certainly part of it. So it's like,
you know.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
It's not even that what we know as that kind
of strip of of of modern Israel. But yeah, I mean,
you're taught that this is a fulfillmentive prophecy and it's
a necessary and pivotal role in the establishment of the
the bringing about of the Messianic age. So you know,
(50:10):
you're taught that, like, oh, when Jesus returns, it's gonna
his feet are literally going to touch the amount of olives.
Maybe that's true, but like there's this great importance on
the land itself and how important that land is, and
not just the land, but who occupies the land. So
this is the even more important part This is what
justifies the Jewish takeover of Palestine, is that they have
(50:35):
the right to those that they have the rights to
that land because they There's like a really subversive teaching
in modern evangelicalism that there's this like dual covenant, that
the Jews still are part of the old Covenant and
God is like basically honoring that they that they are
in this in this covenant. This actually came from the
(50:58):
founder of the uh of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He was
the first to tisi this idea. I'm blanking. I always
forget this guy's name. It's like some kind of generic name.
But he was he was involved in the creation, and
he's also rumored to be a freemason. But he came
up with this idea of the dual Covenant that the
(51:19):
Jews still have this covenant with God, and therefore they
don't need to convert to Christianity, by the way, so
they can just keep doing what they're doing and and
they're and they're good just by by birthright.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Essentially, this is specifically and strictly anti biblical. I would say, yeah,
and it's interesting you hear it pushed by groups of
people that say, I only believe what the Bible says.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Well, and you know, a lot of it is also
the largely due to Sola Scripturah and this notion that uh,
these these passages are interpreted.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Literally and not having the discernment to.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Know what where is the literal interpretation, where is the
symbolic because they've departed from the patristic Titians and this
is where a lot of the Messianism comes in. So
a lot of this started with the literal interpretation of
revelation that this is what kind of justified these beliefs
(52:24):
in the in the seventeenth century, this is why it
became so popular. Like then all these cabalistic Jews are
readmitted back into England and they're like hey, and and
by the way, this is occurring during the widespread dissemination
of Lurianic Kabbala. Lurianic Kabbala was a reframing of Kabbala
in a Messianic lens. So it was all with this
(52:46):
goal in mind of bringing about the Messianic age through
human effort.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
And so when that kind of merged.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
With the English Puritans, it was like the same kind
of idea of of Christian Cobblo was like, oh, well,
this actually makes sense of all of the prophecies in
the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
This is this is how they're to be properly understood. Wow, okay,
and it's it's troubling.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Like we mentioned, prior to the Reformation, many people that
would fall into what you're discussing right now would look
at Apostolic succession and say, no, it died off. There's
just this big dark age for a long time. And
what those people said doesn't mean anything. But look at
this new thing I've learned. It's bizarre. You know that
(53:36):
that's how it worked. Have you seen Let me ask
you this, through your work and your sub stack, do
you get pushback from Protestants or evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Do you get some that go, oh my goodness, thank
you for showing me this. I didn't know this. What's
sort of the reaction types that you get. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
I actually had to kind of prompt reaction because I
was like surprised that I wasn't getting any from evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
And I think I found from.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Doing that that the primary reason that they weren't interested
in the even engaging with my research was merely the title,
like the proposition itself was like, you know, the way
I titled it was like Kabbala and the Protestant Revolution,
And so you see that word Kabala and they just
check out, okay, like I'm not that's that seems like
schizo nonsense. I'm not gonna even bother reading it. That
(54:27):
was kind of the main response I got. And so
I noticed that, and I started like prompting on subseeck.
I was like, you know, I'm a little disappointed that
I didn't get like any honest, like feedback from prostants
on this, and that actually was pretty successful in getting
some prostants to engage with that. I still got some
(54:47):
of that response, but some of the more honest looks
at it. I got actually some very valuable feedback from it,
and a good handful of prostants that did read it
expressed that they they I had no idea about this history.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
It was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
I don't know that it's like something that they would
consider like a death blow to their entire faith, you know.
I know, with like some of the confessional Lutherans that
I talked to, they were just like, oh yeah, well
those were the English Puritans. That's got nothing to do
with us. Those guys are crazy. So because of like
the secretary of nature of Protestantism, a lot of these
(55:24):
people are going to just easily dismiss that as like, oh,
well that they got that denomination got corrupted or whatever,
like that's not me though, So like, yeah, it was, like,
you know, it's mixed, mixed opinions, but I mean, no
one has challenged the validity of the historical research. You could,
you could you could challenge my my own kind of
(55:45):
like interpretation, I suppose and saying that you know, this
was a this was a strong contributor at the very
least to to why the Christians ended up supporting the
state of Israel, which I think is is you know,
I would gladly debate anybody on that, but yeah, I
(56:08):
mean it was mostly and you know, the funny thing is,
like most Protestants wanted to just know what I said
about Luther, Like they weren't even interested in any of
the other stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
And Luther wasn't even central.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
To my thesis right right, Like as I just explained
that this stuff really didn't start to take hold until
the seven till the seventeenth century anyway, So you know,
like most of the focus was on Luther, and they're like, oh,
I have to find what he's.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Saying about Luthor, where's the connection with Luthor?
Speaker 1 (56:37):
And what I'm actually saying is it doesn't matter that much,
even though Luther did also have esoteric influence and you
can argue over to what degree, but I didn't see
Luther as that important to any of the thesis I'm proposing.
So yeah, that was the general reaction. And I think,
you know, one comment or on Twitter made a good
(57:00):
observation that I think is true that this is just
simply too high level for most Protestants, like they're they're
thinking on.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
Like they're they're involved in all these.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Debates about sola scriptora and sola feed it, like all
the kind of core doctrines of their faith and like
attacking Catholics. This is like far from something that they're like,
they've never even heard.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Of this, they have no apologetic for it.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
So it's just like too high level, Like it's not
a theological debate, it's just a matter of history.
Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, Well put I want you this
is almost selfish for my own sake, but I'm I'm
doing it for my listeners. I want you to recommend
some books. Oh, okay, you have a lot of good ones.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
So again, the two texts I've been referencing, we're actually
we were just reading them in my book club this month.
The one is called Against Our Better Judgment. This is
by Alison Weir, And that's the one I was saying
that has tons of footnotes.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
The subtitle to that one the Hidden History of How
the US was used to create Israel. There you go.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
The other one is Israel Shahak, which is titled Jewish History,
Jewish Religion the Weight of three thousand Years, and that
is from the Hebrew Hebrew University of Jerusalem Academic and
UH and UH Professor Israel Shahak. If you want more
(58:29):
on like it kind of depends on which part of
history and which subject
A lot of research on the history and transmission of
Western esotericism and how it relates to Western Christian thought
in particular and Protestantism, and recently started kind of delving
into how it infiltrated the Catholic Church as well. But
(00:21):
you know, these subjects all kind of are very closely intertwined, and.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
With what we're talking about today. I found that there's
a root in it that stems from Kabbalah, which is
Jewish mysticism, and kind of the outcome of it being
the establishment of the Zion Estate and your Orthodox correct Yes, yes, yes,
(00:52):
I am an Orthodox. I'm an Orthodox Christian.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I've been Orthodox for five years now. So I kind
of have the I guess, common adult convert story, you know,
during COVID and just being worn out and tired from
the tremendous amount of psyops during that time, and had
(01:15):
the usual kind of spiritual awakening that you commonly hear.
So I don't think my conversion story is particularly unique,
but yeah, it was around it was actually in the
height of COVID that I started attending Orthodox Church.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So wonderful, wonderful. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I was teasing this episode at the end of my
last one, and I started thinking about it afterwards, I said,
next week, this subject is a spicy one, and it
really only is because it's somewhat shatters some presuppositions, some
framework that people have. There's nothing like means spirited or
(02:02):
dark or something that we're putting out there with with
this topic.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It's only considered spicy because it's like.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Ooh, that's going to shatter some people's preconceived notions or
some long held beliefs that aren't necessarily true.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
How do you see this sort of topic?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And for those going what is he beating around the Bushwar,
we're talking about a well for one of the Kabbala,
the Reformation, Zionism, et cetera. So you get the picture.
But do you think this is I don't know, taboo
or spicy topic?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And why is it?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
If it is, I think that it's it's probably seen
that way in the West because this Zionist agenda has
been targeting the West in primarily America. So you know,
it's all framed within this context where you you can't
(03:00):
criticize it at all. Any degree of criticism is considered
anti semitic. Uh. You know, even if you are Jewish.
Many of these writers and researchers that I drew from
we were in fact Jewish, and they were anti Zionists,
and they even were criticized of being you know, anti
Semitic or this, you know quote self hating jew or something.
(03:23):
So you know, and in academia you'll lose your job
over it if you if you publish any work that's
somewhat critical of Zionism, so.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know, and then how it's merged.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
With evangelical evangelicalism.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
In in in the West as well.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know, it's kind of seen as this like you know,
I guess they're using a lot of the same talking.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Points the evangelicals.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
But you know, I don't think it's particularly taboo in
the in the East. I mean, we've we have some
contemporary saints such as Saint Paasius, who has even condemned
the the silence of there's a there's a famous work
(04:13):
that he did. Uh it's called it I think it's
called something like if the met if the if.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
The bishops are silent, who will speak?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And he's talking about Zionism and and basically how you know,
none of these hierarchs are even condemning it, at least
at his time, So you know that there is kind
of I guess the level of silence even to that degree,
But I just don't think it's as particularly taboo uh
(04:44):
in the in the East. I mean, this has been
a long held position for two thousand years that the
Church is Israel.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, I I went to Mount Athos last summer
with father Peter Hears and do you know Conrad from
World Now, good friend of mine? Yea, Conrad was with us.
Oh that's right, you actually, I've you've been on his show.
He was with me too. And it's funny like in
(05:13):
certain circles over here, Conrad's considered like, oh he talks
about taboo's subject or he's ultra radical or something. But
we noticed talking too, many of the monks that we
encountered and sat with they sound like him, Like there
was nothing that he was saying and open discussion with
(05:37):
him that was seen as taboo at all. And I
thought it's funny some of the let's say, subversive factions
within Orthodoxy that pretend like people like Conrad or some
sort of aggressive far right fascist or something or other
like that, if they heard these monks on man at
those like, what would they say about them?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
They sounded similar to when we talked about geopolitics and
stuff like that. So I want to get into first
of all, we talk about the Reformation a lot. It's
also funny like if we start critiquing the Protestant Reformation
in the same way that we're tying it in with
Zionism and some of these ideas, you can be called
(06:23):
anti Semitic at certain points, but no one ever calls
you anti Christian.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's weird.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
But how how is the Reformation in your viewed scene,
let's say, not from your perspective, but your perspective on
how the Reformation is viewed widely in American Christian Christianity.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Let's say there is almost like this messianic idea of
the of the Reformation, like Luther's almost perceived as a
Messianic type figure who rescued Christianity from apostas you know,
from fifteen hundred years of apostasy which started at whatever
some arbitrary point.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I mean, you can ask any Protestant when did.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
The when did when did Christianity they divert from what
you think is the original Apostolic faith, and you'll get
a different answer from almost every Protestant, I mean, because
they can't really define that. So, you know, Luther Nail's
the ninety five thesis to the Doors of Wittenberg, and
(07:26):
it's seen as kind of this you know, messianic rescue
of Christianity. And you know, in the context of history,
the Reformation took place in fifteen seventeen, and I'm fascinated
by this two hundred year span which has kind of
(07:50):
framed modern history.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
In these revolutionary movements.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so I view the Reformation as the longest ongoing
revolution in world history because it's still underway and it's
just spreading in its reach, and it's been going on
for five hundred years. So I viewed as a revolutionary
movement and one that was born from technology. It would
(08:20):
not have been possible without print technology helping advance its spread.
It runs parallel with the establishment of secret societies throughout
the West, and you have fifteen seventeen, the Reformation starts
two hundred years later, the Constitution of Freemasonry assigned in
(08:41):
seventeen seventeen, establishing the first Masonic lodge in London. And
then what happens two hundred years later in nineteen seventeen
the signing of the Balfour Decoration and the Russian Revolution
is underway.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So I always just found that really interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
But you know, I see, to answer your question, I
see the Reformation as this pivotal kind of dispensation I
guess if you want to call it that in uh
in world history, ah, that ushered in the the mass
acceleration of nominalism, you know, capitalism. A lot of these
(09:24):
en Zionism. I mean, that was kind of the inevitable
conclusion of it. I know that not every Protestant is Zionist.
I would never say that, but when you look at
the history and see how in the eighties or in
the seventeenth century, how this all really started to integrate
with the English Puritans and they're consulting of cabalistic rabbis
(09:49):
and Messy, you know, these these messianic cults, these millenarians.
That that was the the way in which this you know,
this messianic fervor, I guess, started to spread. So, you know,
we can get more into how Kabala relates to that,
(10:10):
but you know, it involves the human the human effort
in bringing about the conditions for the Messianic age.
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Just now, the Kabbala? What this obviously played a role
(11:24):
in the reformation and and other dispensationists excuse me dispensations
if you will, But what is the Kabbala?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
First? Can we I want to like kind of lay
the groundwork. What it is? When was it put together?
What is this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So it's it's Jewish mysticism and it so it's main
it's mainly comprised of two texts, although it's not a
it's not text text based, So it was just written
at you know, during the Middle Ages. And then there's
(12:00):
debate over when it actually started its oral transmission. The
Kabbalists themselves will say say that it started when uh
with with Moses, when when the angels communicated with Moses,
or when God communicated with Moses and it was transmitted
through you know this this esoteric kind of cryptic secrecy. Uh.
(12:23):
The Hebrew language is perceived as itself as this you know,
divinely influenced language that the heavenly bodies communicate with. So
you know that that the real I guess founding of
kabbala Is is uh disputed. But in the written form,
(12:47):
it's pretty much a Middle Ages document, if you want
to call it a document, and it's comprised of the Zohar,
which is the book of Creation. And this is kind
of this Jewish mystical interpretation of Genesis or I'm sorry
that it's I got it the other way around this.
The the suffer Rah is the commentary on Creation. It's
(13:11):
called the Book of Creation and the Zohar is kind
of like an extension of Ash the Book of Wonder,
I believe it's called.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And so there's these two, you know, it's these two
texts that combine.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And this is the the framework in which uh, mystical
Judaism understands the world itself. So this is how they
perceive reality itself down to the creation uh, the divine
heavenly realm and how it is manifest in the physical realm.
(13:49):
And and this is I would say, inseparable from from
modern Judaism.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
When you're talking about you know, is in the Middle
Ages and is sort of when we think it came
about or whatever. And it was a Jewish mysticism.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
To clarify the Jews of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
That's not the Jewish people we're talking about with the Kabbala.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Correct, correct, Yeah, it's a it's a modern So there's
a there there's a distinction between modern and classical Judaism. Yes,
and when you discuss that, yeah, so this is a
distinction that was made by Israel Shahak who wrote the
(14:36):
book Jewish History Jewish Religion, and he makes a distinction
that basically at at during the Middle ages, you have
this adoption of of Kabbala, which which kind of became
like the new form of Judaism, like this new mystical
(14:59):
form of of Judaism that that kind of replaced the
classical Judaism.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And now that's not to.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Say that even classical Judaism isn't Talmudic. So you know,
you had for all that time the following of of
the Talmud as the primary text of Judaism. It still is,
but you know, the Talmut is basically a bunch of laws.
It's how to how to in your day to day
(15:26):
life as a Jew follow the Mosaic law down to
some really hilarious and excruciating details.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
The Kabbala is what kind of is like the.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Blueprint of reality and and and so you know there's
something I left out. But Kabbala actually has a goal
as well, which is this notion of tikan o Lam,
which means world repair. Right and and so when modern
Judaism came about, and especially with the aablishment of the
(16:00):
State of Israel, this is what actually liberalized the Jews.
This is what got them involved in all of these
liberal causes. The studying of secular literature, involvement in UH
and entertainment in comedy. These things were unheard of in
classical Judaism. They were actually forbidden and again Israel Shahawk
(16:22):
talks about this. They were actually forbidden from making jokes
unless it was a joke about another religion. And they
were pretty much sheltered from UH from secular literature. They
were only really involved in studying their Jewish texts. So, yeah,
there's a distinction. We're not talking about the you know,
(16:45):
the heat the Hebrew people in the Old Testament. The
modern modern Judaism is a completely.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
New thing. You know.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You can talk about like how the Pharisees were can
dens by Christ, you know, for probably following to the Talmud,
which you know came from their Babylonian captivity, you know,
to the letter of the Law, all that kind of stuff.
But you know, so that was always there. But yeah,
what we're talking about is like kind of this uh
(17:19):
more like mid you know again Middle Ages kind of invention.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And what is that world repair that you're talking about?
Why repair for from what?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, so there's kind of a in the suffer it's
ra the Book of Creation, It's it's kind of this
is how like inverted kabbala is like they it teaches
that during the creation there was a like a shattering
of all these vessels. So when when God created the
(17:55):
world and the light from God's creation permeated did the
material world, it shattered all of these like vessels. You know,
it's like kind of again, this is all esoteric language.
It would take a while to break down, but basically,
like the way I interpret it is that it's almost
like God didn't factor in this crucial thing where he
(18:19):
essentially broke creation.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So like for the cobblests, it wasn't Man.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
That like the fall of Man was was basically this
kind of like error in creation.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It wasn't due to man Man's fall. It wasn't due
to Adam sin.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
In fact, they believe that Adam was the one that
expelled God from the garden.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, and so this is what they aim to repair.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Is so they believe it was basically God that you know,
shattered all these vessels and it's man's job to restore
the shattered vessels. This gets into this doctrine, which is
one of the essential doctrines.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Of Balah, of what they call Chakaina, which is the.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Manifest They believe it's the manifestation, like the physical manifestation
of God's glory. So this is what this is how
God was present in the in the Tabernacle, behind the
Holy of Holies and the Chicaina. This is this is
what kind of ties into Zionism because the Chicaina was
(19:25):
what was expelled from the garden. So God's presence was
expelled from the garden. There was this separation, it was exiled,
and so this plays into their exile narrative.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
There was a spiritual aspect to this.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And so they identify and by the way, the Chicaina,
they interpret it as the feminine half of God. So
there's this ongoing effort of man of the Kabbalists to
restore this union with God through Theurgic Ritual, among.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Many other things.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
But you know, it depends which sect of Judaism you're
talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
The reform Jews, for example, are the ones.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Who are are more involved in progressive causes. They think
that that's how they're going to restore the world. Yeah,
you know, there's a strong aspect of a humanism with it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So all right, I want to ask about.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
How this influenced then the Reformation and what part of
the Kabbala, and this sect of Judaism did influence the Reformers.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So I want to be careful in how I frame this,
because I don't think that there was this really obvious,
strong influence of Kabbala with at least with the three
primary Reformers. There was, however, a strong Jewish influence because
(21:02):
all three Reformers they were heavily involved in in translation
work when they were writing the Bible, when they were
you know, writing it in their languages, and so to
do that they needed to consult rabbis to learn Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That was, those were the only people who knew Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And by doing that there was this transmission of you know,
whether it was firsthand or second hand, this transmission of
cabalistic influence just by sheer relation of the of the
rabbis being Cobbalists. And you know, there's some there's some
figures that were that were more influential among all three reformers.
(21:42):
But you know, I don't think that, Like I wouldn't
argue that all three of the Reformers were like cryptocobolists
or something, right. I think that the more undeniable influence
came later in the seventeenth century among the English Puritans.
But that came as a result of just being kind
of steeped in all this Hebraic studies.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And and again consulting.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
These rabbis who some of them like like a Rabbi
Manassa ben Israel. They were involved in the establishment of
these secret societies.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
They were working with other.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Other Puritan ministers who were expressing strong sentiments and and
interest in kabbala.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So you know, that didn't really come in.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
An undeniable way until I would say, about a century later.
But you know, I think if you want to talk
about like esotericism, there was definitely an influence there, and
especially in Germany, uh And and particularly in Wurtemberg, which
was this at the time in the sixteenth century, a
(22:53):
hotbed of esoteric studies. So there was a lot of
you know, you had the strong pre sresence of the
Rascrucians there. Yes, there was a one of the primary
like kind of headquarters of the Rossacrucion order was was
in was in Germany. And you see for centuries these
(23:13):
locations were basically remained hotbeds for dissemination of esotericism in
the West.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
What is the whose site revolution.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Okay, yeah, so the this was a proto proto Reformation revolution.
The so John huss led the the Hussite Revolution. I
don't I didn't go into like great detail on this
in in my articles, but so I haven't done extensive
(23:49):
research on it.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But there was, you know, there's a Hussite war.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
They were the Hussites were obsessed with the Old Testament,
and they kind of like viewed themselves as the as
like the inheritors of the of the Old Testament, of
the Old Covenant. And and this was I believe two
(24:14):
to three hundred years prior to the Reformation. These were
the original Sola scriptura. People like these were the first
guys to kind of like break off from the Catholic
Church and say we can do all this interpretation on
our own. And and huss by the way, was attributed
(24:35):
in one of Luther's forwards I believe, and and I
forget which commentary, but you know he had an influence
on Luther. You had the John Wycliffe, I believe was
related to the Hussites.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So a lot of.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
The the proto reformers were linked to the Hussites.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And and was there some sort of impact with the
with this stuff we're talking about right now, UH starting
the concept of solid faith alone.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So there there was a source that I found in
my research that and this is directly from Luther, where
he attributes sola fide to true Kabbala and this was in.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
His commentary to the Galatians.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I did have a discussion with some Lutherans who were
very well versed in UH in the history, and I've
revised some of my research on this, but I think
it's I mean, it's still there. Like the fact that
it's still there and he's referring to Kabala at least,
at the very least, it is an indicator that there
(25:58):
was a you know, an un.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Understanding of of what that even means.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
He's writing to other Christians and he's talking about true
Kabbala as a sola fida being true Kabbala. Now you
could read that and say, well, that's a direct like
that's a smoking gun right there, that he's just attributing
it to this Jewish mystical idea.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You can also say that it was.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
A reference to this notion that UH, which was understood
in the in the Renaissance where this stuff all emerged,
that Kabbala was the way in.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Which the Bible is to be interpreted.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
So this is how the Renaissance, what they were, they
were called Christian Cobbalists were understanding the use of cabala.
The the syncretization of Kabala with Christianity was that this
was the only proper lens to interpret the Bible in.
So Luther could have been saying something like this is how,
this is how you truly understand the Bible, not through
(27:02):
the Cabala. But I still think the point stands that
you know, the fact that he was referencing it shows
how big of an influence that there was in Christian theology.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier that you could ask various Protestants
and hear different answers about when did like Apostolic succession
die off? And there's always this concept of like just
a long dark period of time and then boom Luther
comes along. And was there a feeling of the minute
(27:34):
of the reformers.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Of going back to what was?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Or do you think it was destroying what was and
creating something new? A mix of both of those things,
because I know there was some iconoclasm involved in this
stuff too. Can you talk about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I think it was. It was both.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I mean, in order to kind of go back to
what they thought was Apostolic Christianity. It involved destruction of
the uh, the old order as as historians call it
the Old Order. I don't know that the the prostant
reformers would have called it that. And and so that
(28:13):
involved the yeah, the destruction of you know, the ransacking
of these Catholic churches. To be fair, it was primarily
Calvin and Zwingli's revolutions that were very staunchly iconoclastic. Luther
(28:34):
was not as as much of an iconoclass like he
definitely wasn't a believer in venerating images, but he wasn't
like they need to be removed from the churches. So
like to this day Confessional Lutherans, they still I believe
have at least icons of Christ and the Theotokos if
I'm not mistaken, Okay, but you.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Know, they don't venerate them.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But yeah, Calvin Wingley were the primary, the primary utribute
attributors to the iconoclastic revolts that occurred in the following
centuries after the Reformation. Sowingley was the most iconoclassic of
(29:20):
all of them.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Calvin.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
People will say Calvin wasn't an iconoclass, but he didn't
condemn any of the Calvinist iconoclasm that was occurring in
his lifetime, So I take that to be he wasn't
a he wasn't opposed to iconoclasm.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
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(30:00):
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and the T shirt will be yours. And I want
to ask two about this is fascinating because it's it
might feel like it's jumping around, but there's like a strain,
a lineage through here.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Cabala's influence on the Founding Fathers. Yeah, yeah, this is.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
One that I uh, I get a lot of blowback from.
But I mean it's very so with with the Founding Fathers. Again,
I want to I want to frame this in a
way that it's like, I'm not saying the Founding Fathers
were cobbleists, but the influence, Like you can see that
the influence was there, because there's a let that Thomas
(31:01):
Jefferson wrote to John Adams where he is urging him
to look into all of these Jewish texts and he's
naming them. He's naming the Mishnah, Kabbala, the Zohart, like
all these I don't think he says Kabala, but he
names like the Seffrigettra, the Zohar, like all these Jewish
mystical texts, and he says that we need to look
(31:22):
into this to understand how to frame the morals and
ethics of the kind of the of our nation. And so,
you know, the question is like, how does he know
about that? And why is it even like why does
he feel that's necessary?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
So I don't think, you know, and there was there
was actually some evidence that there was coblistic influence with
with Benjamin Franklin. Who was he met with. I think
it was Ezra Stiles, who was the president at Yale
University and is a Christian Cobbalist. I think more more so,
(32:05):
you know, with with a different kind of like a
I guess, a more.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Evolved approach to it. But he was.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
He has a famous quote saying that he believed that
Kabbala was worthy of transmission throughout American universities.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So you know, he he had met Franklin.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Had met with Ezra's styles to inquire about Kabbala.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And we see in the.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Iconography of the founding of the United States with you know,
simply on the dollar bill.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You can just look at the dollar bill and everyone.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Kind of like interprets that as Masonic, which is which
is true. But Freemasonry is also a combalistic institution. So
a lot of the symbology is combalistic. And and so
what I was talking about earlier, the Chicaina that appears
on the dollar bill.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Above the bald eagle.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
You know, everyone points to the pyramid and it's like
on the other side of the pyramid, on the back
of the one dollar bill, there's also a kabbalistic image
of the quote Chicaina glory, which is the cloud of
glory that the Puritans saw as the guiding force that
took them across the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And so this is like a sign of freedom to them.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And and so that's depicted on the back of the
one dollar bill. You could argue that there's a clear
star quote star of David inside of that cloud that's
kind of outlined by the thirteen stars. Thirteen is also
a you know, very important number in Kabbala.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And and you know, there's a legend.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
That this guy heim Solomon who helped fund the Civil War,
that was a kind of a nod from from Washington
to show his debt to Heims Solomon for helping fund
the Revolutionary War.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wow, I did not know that part. What just people,
if you've got dollars, look at him. What does the
Chicaina look like? Well, it's usually depicted like a cloud.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
So and you even hear this this was I grew
up Protestant and I heard Chicina.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Being taught from the pulpit.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Oh you did, Oh yeah, yeah, like all the Chicao glory.
I mean, there's I've found clips of RCI Sproll preaching
about this. It's in his work, It's in It's in
h John MacArthur has reference. It's in the MacArthur Study Bible.
I actually did a search on this. That appears nineteen
times in the MacArthur's Study Bible.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
And yeah, I think that's in my footnotes. Yeah, and
it and it was. It was.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
It was also added as a section heading and I
believe uh first chronicles in the a New American Standard
translation it says the Chicina glory. So this word Chikina,
it doesn't even it doesn't appear anywhere in the Old
Testament Hebrew. It's it's purely a Jewish mystical concept.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I'm looking up. I wonder if I could search Chicaina
John Hagy. I'm suspecting. I know for a fact he
talks about it.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, does, But I mean that I use that as
kind of like evidence to show It's like my question
is basically like, Okay, if you want to doubt all
of this history, you want to say that I'm kind
of crafting this narrative that isn't there. Why is it
that these preachers who are still alive today, these highly
influential evangelical preachers still use this term. And again I'm
(35:47):
not saying that that means they study kabbala. I think
actually they probably have no idea that it's kabalistic.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
For the most part.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
The thing is that the presence of this this doctrine
is still there in prostant or in evangelical theology. But yeah,
but to answer your question, it's usually depicted as a
cloud because it's perceived to be the you'll hear even
the the evangelicals will say this, it's the the manifestation
(36:16):
of God's glory. So it's like it appeared as a
cloud above the arc when they were you know, when
the Hebrews are traveling around the arc, so they they
kind of perceive it to be like the the manifestation
of God's glory. And I'm and I'm a I'm not
even saying that this is like a false teaching, but
the fact that it's like attributed to this cabalistic concept
(36:39):
is is pretty sus Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
And it's even if I mean, even if the preachers
don't know specifically where it comes from or that it's
uh kabbala esque in nature, that just shows you how
and like how woven into the fabric of what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
This this stuff is really and I.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
How does this lead to, in your opinion, Zionism Basically.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, the so uh in Kabbala again, chakaina is very
closely tied to like the idea the Jewish identity of
exile and and how human effort can restore this divine
union of God that you know that they or that
God himself kind of or that I guess that humans
(37:34):
you know, expelled from from Man, expelled from the garden, whatever,
and so you know, probably a pretty shocking example of
this can be seen in modern Judaism. I think probably
most of your listeners are familiar with the prayer ritual
(37:54):
that you might have seen images of at the quote
whaling Wall, where we'll see these Orthodox Jews, you know,
at the wall and they're doing this kind of thrusting motion.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
This is a a.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Literal sexual theorgy that occurs to restore chakina, because Chakina
is the feminine half of God.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And so there's a literal.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Notion of like this sexual copulation that that involves the
restoring the the.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
The broken union of of God with the Chakaina.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
So it's very bizarre, and you know, you see stuff
like this and it's like, where is that in the
Old Testament, right right? Like that that's kind of like
a good indicator that this is a different religion, like
this is a completely alien religion Israel. Shahak also talks
about how, uh, this is a this is an indicator
(38:59):
that modern Judaism became polytheistic because they have, like you know,
all of these other kind of deities that they refer to.
There's there's the the the Father, and then there's the
kind of like the divine mother who's the Chakaina, and
then they have children. They have like a divine daughter
(39:19):
and a divine son. So there's almost like a pantheon
of of of these like cabalistic deities and and uh
Shahak and I'm gonna see if I can find this quote,
but I'm gonna quote. I'm going to try to quote
directly from Shahaka on this. He says, uh so, on
(39:40):
the one, on one of these two occasions, uh, the
he the Cobbalist is worshiping God by promoting the divine
union of son and daughter. But on the other he
is worshiping Satan, who likes Jewish prayers and ritual acts
so much that when he has offered a few of them,
it keeps him busy for a while and he forgets
the paestor of the Divine Daughter. This is like a
(40:01):
totally schizophrenic religion. I mean, it's just they're literally like,
so they're praying to Satan that he doesn't bother them
on the Sabbath and that instead he bothers the gentiles.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Who can can you tell me again who you were
quoting there?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Oh, yeah, that's Israel Shahak who wrote he was a
So this isn't like a weirdo conspiracy text. He was
a He was a scholar and a professor, a Jewish.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Actually he was raised Zionist and he was a professor
at University of Jerusalem, and he wrote this this book
that was, you know, I guess, very controversial at the time,
where he went into detail exposing the uh you know,
the the atrocities and and the injustices of the Zionist state,
(40:54):
the creation of the Zionist state, and how the how
the Jews view the gentile and how it justified like
the religious justification for the treatment of the non Jews.
So really really important texts that I wish more people
would read. It's kind of not as known for obvious reasons,
but you know, he goes into some pretty shocking details
(41:19):
on the spiritual end of how you know, like why
this stuff is justified?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
On that note, there's also the first the first chief
rabbi of Palestine who has it's kind of a funny name.
It was Rabbi Cook, but it's spelled Kook. But he
was a Cabalistic rabbi who gave these details of like
(41:47):
you know, they interpret the Cobbalists interpret the Gentiles as
Satan worshippers.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Or like the children of Satan.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So you know, he goes into like all this relig
just justifications for the treatment.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Of of you know, women and children.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Uh they're they're perceived to be less than uh, less
than dogs, like less than animals. So you know that
the like understanding this stuff is really it helps you
to understand why this is occurring, Like why are they
you know, we're we're kind of being bombarded with all
these images of these horrific images of uh, you know,
(42:25):
babies and children and stuff that are like really violent
acts committed towards them.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I wish that I hadn't seen this stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
But you know, you look at an image like that,
it's like why, like why is that happening? And a
lot of people who don't have an answer for that,
they just think like, oh, well, they hate us or something,
but it's actually like they think that this is their duty.
Israel was founded upon this, this these this violence. It
was founded on terrorism. It happened in the first three
(42:56):
months of the founding of the zion Estate. There were
horrific acts of terrorism that were being committed on the Palestinians.
And you know, like I don't even want to go
into detail on the stuff they were doing.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
It was just horrific.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
And this was all funded with even at that time,
even in the nineteen forties, this was funded with US money.
So sorry, I got in a little bit of agent there,
but yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Yeah, it was great. That's exactly where I was going
with this. Why was it funded with US money? Might
we asked?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, well so the whole creation of the Zionist state.
And then this is another text that I just recently
read called It Against Our Better Judgment, which is incredibly
well researched. There was actually more footnotes in this book
than there are than there is primary texts. There's like
almost one hundred pages of footnotes, incredibly well researched piece
(43:57):
on the hidden history of how the US was essential
in the creation of Israel and the whole operation was
founded in deceit, conspiracy, blackmail, propaganda.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
It's just incredible.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It was through the education system, through the media, through entertainment.
It was a huge operation. And it's still ongoing obviously,
but you know there there's there's references in here to Uh,
to Truman, how how Truman was saying that the most
immense pressure that he ever experienced in his presidency was
(44:42):
the pressure from the Israel lobby. And this is I
mean again, this is Truman, Like, this is not a
new thing. This was from the onset of the creation
of Israel.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
This was occurring.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
And and so you know, it was all these organizations
that were just funneling money.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
It's the same as what you see today.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I mean, it's just all through why's deceit propaganda And
you know, again this isn't a conspiracy. You can read
this all in the history. It's very well researched and
it's from primary sources, and it's quote you can have,
you can see the quotes from these figures themselves talking
about this.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
This isn't speculative. Why was this? Why though? Why? Why? Why?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like there's no other nation that's that small, that's putting
forth this much influence and power over an empire.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
US. Why why is this? I mean I.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Think, well, first of all because of the geopolitical force
that is the United States, and then also because of
the probably because of the evangelical population as well.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So like a lot of people don't know this, but
you know.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
They'll they'll say, you know, most people will will know that, like, oh,
the Schofield Bible was like the big, big thing that
kind of started all this, And actually the Schofield Bible is.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Kind of more of like the nail on the coffin
that that kind of helped the garner support from US evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
H and Darby didn't really have much to do with
it in the US.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
He was more influential in the in the UK, but
not in the US. So Americans were kind of the last.
American evangelicals were kind of the last to sign on
to this, and that's why the Schofield Bible was, you know,
became pretty important, but it was the whole reason why
the Schofield Bible was necessary, which was again.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Because there wasn't a lot of like it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
A popular idea in the US, but the Zionists saw
the US like like, the US as a stronghold, as
a Zionist stronghold that they had to capture. So you know,
you see again some of the language and these figures.
I mentioned this Rabbi Cook Kouk or whatever earlier, and
there's a quote from him where he said, he says,
(47:09):
let me see if I can find this here.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
So Abraham Kuk, the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of British
Mandatory Palestine, studied the Kabbala and Hegelian philosophy.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Hegel, by the way, was also very influenced by.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Kabbala, concluding that God had used all of history to
divinely conspire to return the Jews to Palestine, and that
he had used even the actions of Pagans in apparent operition, opposition,
and persecution of the Jews to do so. The fundamentalist
sect Gush and Newman, led by the son of Rabbi Kuk,
(47:46):
vigorously pushed for Messianic redemptionist interpretation of the settlement of
new territories acquired by Israel in the Sixth Day War,
which it believed had been divinely granted and therefore could
not be surrendered.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
And then there's a later quote from him where he.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Says that it would not have been possible the creation
and David Benguri and the first Prime Minister of Israel
also said this that they would not the creation of
design state.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Would not have been possible without American support.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
So, you know, for probably multiple reasons that I'm oversimplifying,
there was a tremendous need for this to be a
popular idea among Americans to gain support.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
When you were Protestant and attending Protestant church on a
regular basis, was it preached to you and or did
you believe that it was biblical that the modern state
of Israel was founded?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, I mean you're taught that.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
And again it depends, I guess which denomination you are.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
But I think this is at.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
This point become pretty much almost a dogma of evangelical
theology at least. But you're taught that there is that
this is a fulfillmentive prophecy, and and so it's all geographical.
It's not it's not that the church is Israel, it's
that it's actually.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
The land and the and the borders that.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Define Israel, which itself is is kind of a ridiculous
idea because even the the Zionists and Schahak talks about this,
he actually lays out the understanding of what defines those borders,
and like the the more extreme views is that it
even extends into Egypt, so they have even a much
broader scope of what those borders even are.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
A Gaza is certainly part of it. So it's like,
you know.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
It's not even that what we know as that kind
of strip of of of modern Israel. But yeah, I mean,
you're taught that this is a fulfillmentive prophecy and it's
a necessary and pivotal role in the establishment of the
the bringing about of the Messianic age. So you know,
(50:10):
you're taught that, like, oh, when Jesus returns, it's gonna
his feet are literally going to touch the amount of olives.
Maybe that's true, but like there's this great importance on
the land itself and how important that land is, and
not just the land, but who occupies the land. So
this is the even more important part This is what
justifies the Jewish takeover of Palestine, is that they have
(50:35):
the right to those that they have the rights to
that land because they There's like a really subversive teaching
in modern evangelicalism that there's this like dual covenant, that
the Jews still are part of the old Covenant and
God is like basically honoring that they that they are
in this in this covenant. This actually came from the
(50:58):
founder of the uh of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He was
the first to tisi this idea. I'm blanking. I always
forget this guy's name. It's like some kind of generic name.
But he was he was involved in the creation, and
he's also rumored to be a freemason. But he came
up with this idea of the dual Covenant that the
(51:19):
Jews still have this covenant with God, and therefore they
don't need to convert to Christianity, by the way, so
they can just keep doing what they're doing and and
they're and they're good just by by birthright.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Essentially, this is specifically and strictly anti biblical. I would say, yeah,
and it's interesting you hear it pushed by groups of
people that say, I only believe what the Bible says.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Well, and you know, a lot of it is also
the largely due to Sola Scripturah and this notion that uh,
these these passages are interpreted.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Literally and not having the discernment to.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Know what where is the literal interpretation, where is the
symbolic because they've departed from the patristic Titians and this
is where a lot of the Messianism comes in. So
a lot of this started with the literal interpretation of
revelation that this is what kind of justified these beliefs
(52:24):
in the in the seventeenth century, this is why it
became so popular. Like then all these cabalistic Jews are
readmitted back into England and they're like hey, and and
by the way, this is occurring during the widespread dissemination
of Lurianic Kabbala. Lurianic Kabbala was a reframing of Kabbala
in a Messianic lens. So it was all with this
(52:46):
goal in mind of bringing about the Messianic age through
human effort.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
And so when that kind of merged.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
With the English Puritans, it was like the same kind
of idea of of Christian Cobblo was like, oh, well,
this actually makes sense of all of the prophecies in
the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
This is this is how they're to be properly understood. Wow, okay,
and it's it's troubling.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Like we mentioned, prior to the Reformation, many people that
would fall into what you're discussing right now would look
at Apostolic succession and say, no, it died off. There's
just this big dark age for a long time. And
what those people said doesn't mean anything. But look at
this new thing I've learned. It's bizarre. You know that
(53:36):
that's how it worked. Have you seen Let me ask
you this, through your work and your sub stack, do
you get pushback from Protestants or evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Do you get some that go, oh my goodness, thank
you for showing me this. I didn't know this. What's
sort of the reaction types that you get. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
I actually had to kind of prompt reaction because I
was like surprised that I wasn't getting any from evangelicals.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
And I think I found from.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Doing that that the primary reason that they weren't interested
in the even engaging with my research was merely the title,
like the proposition itself was like, you know, the way
I titled it was like Kabbala and the Protestant Revolution,
And so you see that word Kabala and they just
check out, okay, like I'm not that's that seems like
schizo nonsense. I'm not gonna even bother reading it. That
(54:27):
was kind of the main response I got. And so
I noticed that, and I started like prompting on subseeck.
I was like, you know, I'm a little disappointed that
I didn't get like any honest, like feedback from prostants
on this, and that actually was pretty successful in getting
some prostants to engage with that. I still got some
(54:47):
of that response, but some of the more honest looks
at it. I got actually some very valuable feedback from it,
and a good handful of prostants that did read it
expressed that they they I had no idea about this history.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
It was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
I don't know that it's like something that they would
consider like a death blow to their entire faith, you know.
I know, with like some of the confessional Lutherans that
I talked to, they were just like, oh yeah, well
those were the English Puritans. That's got nothing to do
with us. Those guys are crazy. So because of like
the secretary of nature of Protestantism, a lot of these
(55:24):
people are going to just easily dismiss that as like, oh,
well that they got that denomination got corrupted or whatever,
like that's not me though, So like, yeah, it was, like,
you know, it's mixed, mixed opinions, but I mean, no
one has challenged the validity of the historical research. You could,
you could you could challenge my my own kind of
(55:45):
like interpretation, I suppose and saying that you know, this
was a this was a strong contributor at the very
least to to why the Christians ended up supporting the
state of Israel, which I think is is you know,
I would gladly debate anybody on that, but yeah, I
(56:08):
mean it was mostly and you know, the funny thing is,
like most Protestants wanted to just know what I said
about Luther, Like they weren't even interested in any of
the other stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
And Luther wasn't even central.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
To my thesis right right, Like as I just explained
that this stuff really didn't start to take hold until
the seven till the seventeenth century anyway, So you know,
like most of the focus was on Luther, and they're like, oh,
I have to find what he's.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Saying about Luthor, where's the connection with Luthor?
Speaker 1 (56:37):
And what I'm actually saying is it doesn't matter that much,
even though Luther did also have esoteric influence and you
can argue over to what degree, but I didn't see
Luther as that important to any of the thesis I'm proposing.
So yeah, that was the general reaction. And I think,
you know, one comment or on Twitter made a good
(57:00):
observation that I think is true that this is just
simply too high level for most Protestants, like they're they're
thinking on.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
Like they're they're involved in all these.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Debates about sola scriptora and sola feed it, like all
the kind of core doctrines of their faith and like
attacking Catholics. This is like far from something that they're like,
they've never even heard.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Of this, they have no apologetic for it.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
So it's just like too high level, Like it's not
a theological debate, it's just a matter of history.
Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, Well put I want you this
is almost selfish for my own sake, but I'm I'm
doing it for my listeners. I want you to recommend
some books. Oh, okay, you have a lot of good ones.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
So again, the two texts I've been referencing, we're actually
we were just reading them in my book club this month.
The one is called Against Our Better Judgment. This is
by Alison Weir, And that's the one I was saying
that has tons of footnotes.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
The subtitle to that one the Hidden History of How
the US was used to create Israel. There you go.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
The other one is Israel Shahak, which is titled Jewish History,
Jewish Religion the Weight of three thousand Years, and that
is from the Hebrew Hebrew University of Jerusalem Academic and
UH and UH Professor Israel Shahak. If you want more
(58:29):
on like it kind of depends on which part of
history and which subject
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