December 29, 2025 • 38 mins
Universal Destinations & Experiences has begun early planning for a theme park in Saudi Arabia, according to an exclusive Wall Street Journal report. The project would be structured as a licensing deal with government-backed funding—the same model Disney announced for its Abu Dhabi park.
This marks Universal's second attempt in the region. In 2008, the company broke ground on Universal Studios Dubailand, but the project stalled after constructing little more than an entrance arch when financing collapsed during the global financial crisis.
For Universal—fresh off the opening of Epic Universe, with Universal Kids Resort (Texas) and a UK park in development—a Middle East licensing deal would establish a presence without capital risk. The licensing model solves multiple problems simultaneously. It generates immediate revenue, provides access to the region's growing tourism market, and avoids the extended profitability timelines that characterize parks Universal builds itself. The structure mirrors successful UAE projects at Yas Island, where SeaWorld, Ferrari World, and Warner Bros. World all operate under licensing or joint venture agreements with government-backed developers.
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This marks Universal's second attempt in the region. In 2008, the company broke ground on Universal Studios Dubailand, but the project stalled after constructing little more than an entrance arch when financing collapsed during the global financial crisis.
For Universal—fresh off the opening of Epic Universe, with Universal Kids Resort (Texas) and a UK park in development—a Middle East licensing deal would establish a presence without capital risk. The licensing model solves multiple problems simultaneously. It generates immediate revenue, provides access to the region's growing tourism market, and avoids the extended profitability timelines that characterize parks Universal builds itself. The structure mirrors successful UAE projects at Yas Island, where SeaWorld, Ferrari World, and Warner Bros. World all operate under licensing or joint venture agreements with government-backed developers.
Listen to weekly BONUS episodes on our Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, from our studios in Los Angeles and Tampa. This
is Green Tag Theme Park and thirty. I'm Philip and
I'm joined as always by my delightful co host Scott
Swinson of Scott Swinson greatd Development. On Green Tag, we
look at the week's top news and explain why it
matters to theme park professionals. This week, we're going to
be talking about the news that just dropped about the
potentially the new Universal park in the Middle East, and
(00:23):
then we're going to get two listener questions as this
is the last episode of the year and just in time,
I finally have my Christmas decorations up.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So, yeah, you put your Christmas decorations up? What the
day before Christmas?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, I mean that's when you're supposed to do it, right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
What are you living in the Edwardian era?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
What is this? You turned the tree together? It's an activity?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So did you trim the tree with everybody who you
celebrated with?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Of course? And I have my weird theme park ornaments. Yeah. Well,
we wanted to thank everyone who commented in last week's
episode as well, especially the common that add context to
what I left out, because usually it's me leaving stuff out.
So I think that's really important to get those details
(01:09):
in there whenever we miss anything, and I love reading
through them and seeing more details and information that I
didn't know about some items. So I think it's excellent
and we hope that you all will continue to do
that and correct me when I get information wrong or
leave stuff out not necessarily wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, And I think it's important to recognize too that
because Philip and I were just having this discussion before
we started the show today, that we are doing this
show so that it prompts conversation, and if we continue
to build this online community where you guys can chat
with each other and share your knowledge, your expertise, your experience,
where we just have kind of tipped the first domino,
(01:47):
and you guys can continue to fall and make it
a greater, more impactful experience. That makes us feel really
good because that's kind of the purpose, that's kind of
the point of the show. You know, we're not here
to give you in thirty minutes, every single minute detail
about every single thing that's happening in the industry. That
that's a really, first of all, a really dull show.
And secondly, we couldn't maintain that, and by way, I
mean Philip because he does all the research. So it's
(02:09):
it's one of those situations where we really I just
want to echo what Philip was saying. We really appreciate
the fact that you're building a community. You're building an
online community that we just kind of helped steer and
point in the right direction. So yeah, I love hearing
all the He's even got me starting to read him
and I never read stuff online. I'm able, but I
(02:30):
believe it. But it's really it's really fun because you
guys are taking and sharing your expertise, your knowledge, your
experience on the topics that we've sort of put the
framework out there for. So we'll continue to try to
give you these canvases and you just continue to paint
like crazy because it makes us all better. It makes
it a much richer experience for all of us, and
(02:51):
it builds that online community where we can actually help
one another.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yep. Well, I think the perfect way to kind of
end this year, aside from listener questions, of course, because
that's a great way to get some feedback, but it's
also news about a new theme park are potentially news,
and this was a pretty massive story that actually the
Wall Street Journal broke exclusively, and it seems like they
have some sources that they were able to corroborate this with.
(03:18):
So I'll read here from the article which is which
is from the Wall Street Journal. It says the Water
Journal reported that Universal Destinations and Experiences had become early
planning for a theme park in Saudi Arabia with potential
funding from a government backed entity through a licensing deal.
Six Flags Kidia will open, of course on December thirty first,
and the Dragon ball Z Park and water park under
(03:39):
construction in the city. Of course, this comes after Disney
has announced a similar deal to build a new theme
park in Abu Dhabi. And of course Universal just opened
the Epic Universe this year and twenty twenty six they're
going to be opening Universal Kids Resort, and they have
announced the first theme park in the UK, the Universal's
first theme park in the UK. So here I'm quoting
(04:00):
directly from the article. Here it said that Disney said
It's Abu Dhabi theme park would be a creative to
earnings from the day it opens, unlike parts it's built
itself that typically take a well turn of profit. Universal
previously tried to make a move into the Middle East
in two thousand and eight when it broke round with
a partner on Universal Studios Dubailan, but little more than
a grand entrance art just built before financing fell apart
(04:20):
to the global financial crisis, the project was eventually canceled.
So the author isn't drawing the direct line in there
between the two. But I think what they're trying to
say is that if it's a licensing deal, which is
what they're saying it is, then it would operate in
the same way that the Disney plan is, which we
talked about that extensively when that news was announced, And
(04:44):
it seems like when we talk about then, is that
it's win win because if they're just licensing it, they
don't have to put their own money into it, and
they still get the presence in the area. And as
we have talked about a lot on the show and
has been backed by a lot of the research from
the Global Index support that the TEA puts out that
the Middle East is really the place where a lot
(05:04):
of the new construction is happening and a lot of
the funding is in the industry is going on right now.
It's like you know we said previously too, if you
want a job, that's a place to go because there's
so much that's going on there. So to me, I'm
not my little well always have conpiracy theories about this,
but I kind of think that this is one where
(05:26):
I'm not sure if it wasn't leaked on purpose, because
to me, I think the thing that I was thinking
as soon as Disney announced, we have all these dominoes
creating this competitive atmosphere there, and to me, the biggest
thing that was missing was Universal and it was almost
becoming a liability in my mind, like what is Universal
(05:47):
doing about the Middle East? Because they have they don't
have a big, a big presence there that's like this
like a park, you know, and they just opened Epic
and like all this stuff. So I almost would say
this could have been planned as a way to drum
up because the whole story is literally just that there's
talks about this thing happening, and if it happened, it
would be a licensing thing. So there's not really anything,
(06:08):
but I think it's just enough to keep it out
there where it's like Universal isn't rolling over in this market,
Like Universal is trying to make this market work, and
if they did it in the same way as dining
with the licensing, it would be the shareholders would be
very happy because it's not going to take any money.
It's just going to be a licenseing. So they'll just
(06:29):
make money again from day one, they'll have money and
they'll have access to that audience. So are there any downsides?
I don't know. I mean, got a lot to go back.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
This is the kind of thing. This is the kind
of thing that it's a perfect example of when the
government says, especially a government that is so centralized and
has such very deep pockets, when they decide, here's what
we're going to do by twenty thirty, you know, because
that's the project. Twenty thirty is the Saudi the Saudi
deadline basically, or for creating their huge they're they're huge
(07:07):
guest engagement, they're huge for a into attractions, they're huge
for a into becoming the destination point in that part
of the world. And so when they have the opportunity
to have discussions with Universal, of course they're going to
have them and they're gonna they're going to do it
the same way. All of the UAE, all of Yas Island,
and Abu Dhabi was done. You know, everybody thinks it's
(07:28):
the Sea World park is SeaWorld. We've talked about it
many many times. It's not its own by morale, it's
licensed through SeaWorld. It is sort of sort of a
joint venture, I would say. But the same is true
with Ferrari World. The same is true with Warner Brothers World,
and the same will be true with Disney in Saudi.
The same is true with Six Flags, The same is
true with Aquarabia, the same is true with Dragon Ball
Z and I'm guessing the same. I mean, obviously the
(07:51):
same will be true here with with Universal. So it
is a it is a very different way of doing things,
although Disney's been doing it for years. Quite honestly, you know,
there are Disney parks around the world that are not
truly Disney parks. They're run to Disney standards, but in
essence they are a franchise or a lease deal. I'm oversimplifying,
(08:13):
I realize, But so, yeah, this does not This does
not surprise me in the least. What surprises me is
honestly that it's taken this long for this information to
come out, you know, after because Philip and I had
the opportunity to walk the Six Flags Park when it
was under construction in Kadea last year, last year, earlier
(08:36):
this year at some point in time, and this year
March right or February. February sounds good to me, but
unfortunately we weren't able to take any photos or take
any any video because obviously it was still a working
construction site. And you know the fact that it is
scheduled to open this week, the week that this will air,
(08:58):
that's that's huge. And the main reason I say that's
huge is having looked at it earlier this year, both
Philip and I thought this is going to open when?
And and now it's ready to go. And you know,
if you want to see what it's all about, go
ahead and check out the There's there's video everywhere of
the new coaster. There's video everywhere. I mean, it's like
five world record holder coasters. There's and and what's interesting
(09:21):
is you know it's all happening at night because they
won't open until at least four pm is what they
told us. So it's a different way of looking at
theme park. And I think that's the that's the true
takeaway as theme parks expand into the Middle East, It's
not going to be the same way we think of
theme parks here because the culture is different. And you know,
(09:46):
I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just different.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
And so there's.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Going to be the parks are going to have much
more of a focus on how do they look when
they're lit at night because that's when the most that's
when the most g are going to see how the
parks operate is in darkness. So lighting will become significantly
more important as far as a business business move I
think this makes just total sense. I think that Disney.
(10:15):
I think Disney being in Abu Dhabi is another reason
that Universal was sparked to either leak or announce the
possibility of a park in Saudi because they didn't want
to show that they hadn't stepped up to the party.
As Philip was saying, you know, this is a they
need to make sure that they're part of the game,
and this announcement shows that, you know, they're not completely
(10:39):
oblivious to the fact that this is where the attractions
industry is exploding at the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
YEP. So it's interesting when you talk about the how
it's going to be different there. I didn't really think
about that, but it's totally it's very true. I mean,
you think about Tokyo Disneyland, right being one of the
most famous I think examples of a licensing deal, but
where they built it to a higher standard even I
(11:05):
think than than I think that that's gonna because you know,
it's going to be just a different theme park experience
to be there in the Middle East, not just because
of the culture, but like they will make it different
because when we've said this, I mean the the Six
Slaves Kidia is the best Six Slags park, and the
same is true with the Sea World. I think it's
(11:26):
like there, it's just that weird thing, you know where
the US, you know, we start the theme parks that
we don't we didn't know we didn't start theme parks,
but you know, we our theme parks were built a
while ago, is a way to put it, and so
some of the infrastructure is you know, like it depends
right on. Like Disney is pretty good at upkeep and
(11:47):
reimagining things, but that's not true with everybody. So you know,
we but our our theme parks been around for longer, right,
and then you have these places which are building everything
right now, and so it's kind of like building their
first theme parks now when the theme park like industry
has already evolved to a specific point. So their baseline
(12:09):
is going to be a lot different than our baseline here.
And I think that that's that's something I think people
don't really think about because you know, I mean that
it's just it's just gonna be a whole different experience
because you know, imagine if well it's yeah, I guess
it's it. It's just like when Orlando and everything is
built roughly around the same time. Hm, you know, I
imagine that. And remember Magic came to only opened with
(12:31):
a few I mean it was it wasn't what it was.
I mean that's where well.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Disney World opened only with Magic Kingdom and two hotels. Yep,
when they opened, there were two hotels and the Magic
Kingdom and that was it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
So and I think by those standards, they're doing better.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Well imagine, yeah, imagine, you know, our base the baseline
was that was what seventy mid seventies when what Disney
World opened, So just that was the baseline. Then they've
they've learned from you know, all those years of experience
and have been watching carefully and studying carefully and investing appropriately,
(13:14):
putting money where they need to, and they don't. They're
not putting themselves in a position where the parks, uh
I excuse me, where the parks have to turn a
profit instantly. Even though the article says that the Disney
park will be set up to do that, which I
think they're.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Right for Disney, it will because Disney, Yeah, a licensing deal.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, they're you know, they're well, Disney's making money off
of it now that licensing deal has already started. They're
making money. Disney is making money off of it now
and the park's not even open yet. So but I
think that the intent to build to play a longer
game is something that is also unique. So they've got
(13:54):
they've got two things working in their favorite. Number one,
they have a baseline that is significantly higher based on
the successes and failures that have happened in other places
around the world, so they kind of know what they
can and cannot do. I think Dubai was another great
testing ground. I think that we learned from motion Gate.
You know, you can't operate an outdoor park during the
day yep. So what have they done in Abu Dhabi
(14:15):
all of the parks are indoors or will only operate
at night yep, or their water parks yep. Well, I
don't think there's to me. I mean, I was trying
to think about if there are any downsides. The only
downside I could think about is that when Disney the announcement,
they got a lot of blowback for the cultural you
know elements which are in the in the article. That's
(14:36):
whyll the Wall Street Journal article mentions that, and I
just think, I know that this blowback is going to
happen again. But to me, being in the industry and
watching where this goes to me, I've decided, I mean
it is I can even say for our business, for Gantum,
for my business, it's you have to be in this market.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
You don't have a choice. And so I think it's
a little bit different for the that are professionals in
the industry, like you have to be in the market.
I mean, I guess you know, you don't have to
work if you're a contractor, you don't have to take
jobs there. But if you're a manufacturer supplier like we are,
you have to. You have to be in. You just
you have to be there. And that's why Ayappa's going there,
and that's why you see so much movement there because
(15:20):
you just you have to you have to. I mean
a lot of the attractions. People kind of flow where
the building is. You know, they move there. So Asia
had its had its moment right when Tokyo and then
We're being built, and then you had Osaka Universal Beijing.
I mean, you people, you kind of we move around,
you know where where the work is, and this is
where the work is, and so that's so you kind
(15:42):
of you have to be there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So and and you know, I'm sure that there's somebody
who is listening to this or watching us on on
YouTube has already put in a comment. Yes, but it's
a horrible place. They treat people horribly. I know, I
know that comment's already there. And so I want you
to think about it this way if you feel that
that is still true. And you know, I'm only basing
it on my experience in the two times I've been
(16:03):
to Saudi. Two times. Two times i've been to Saudi,
the culture, I did not find the culture nearly as
oppressive or as terrifying as people want to make it
out to be. I may be looking at it through
rose colored glasses, and I may have been put in
a position where I wasn't going to see any of
that supposed trauma or negativity. But I also want you
(16:30):
to think that if they are trying to be a
worldwide destination, then opening attractions like this could conceivably change
the views of their country and change the ways the country,
changes the culture of the country, because they need to
make certain that everyone is feeling welcome. Now I can
say without hesitation, because I was in you a longer
(16:53):
in the UAE, they stand by it. They hold amorati
to a very high standard. They hold people who are
of Islamic faith to a very high standard. Those rules
have not changed. However, they do have a much more
live and let live response to those people who are
not emmorati and who are not of the Islamic faith,
(17:17):
which is why every hotel has a bar, which is
against the against the law everywhere else. But they recognize
not the whole world doesn't operate the same way we do,
and if we want to encourage them to come and
visit us, we need to make space. We need to
make room for those people who have different views from ourselves.
So it is possible that this announcement, this Universal announcement,
(17:40):
and the Disney announcement, and every other announcement that has
been made, you know, the Warner Brothers expansion that nobody
remembers of Harry Potter World, which is under construction right now.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I know, which is this is funny, It's gonna be gigantic.
That was not mentioned in any of these articles. And
I was like, yeah, they've kind of forgotten about it.
They'll forget about it until it opens. But all of
these things may actually, instead of forcing people to visit
a quote unquote impressive country, it may actually cause the
(18:12):
country to make space for people who view things differently.
And it may actually adjust the culture as well, because again,
these are business people. They're smart business people, and they
want to make certain that these things work. So if
you don't want to go to the Middle East, don't
go to the Middle East. I'm fine with that. If
(18:33):
you don't want to go wherever you don't want to go,
you do you. All I'm saying is, make sure you've
done your research, make sure that you're not just believing
the first thing you read. Talk to people who've lived there.
I know several people to kind of tag onto what
Philip was saying about. We go where the work is,
we go where the construction is. I know many people
(18:54):
from the US who still maintain their US citizenship who
are living in either Dubai or bahbudah Be or ri
Odd and they have they have chosen to live there
permanently because they as one guy says, I can't live
this well back in the United States. I am paid
well for what I do. There's always work. He's a freelancer,
(19:16):
there's always work for me. He lives in a high
rise that looks out with the Burj Khalifa in Dubai.
So you know, you just have to kind of look
look at the people who've actually done it. Ask them,
because if you're in this industry, I can promise you
you will know people who have done work in the
(19:38):
Middle East. So ask them if you have any questions,
because I just think that this this is going to
be a hub at least for the next I would
say ten to fifteen years. Yeah I agree with that. Yeah, Okay, okay,
we got we gota. We got to move on to
listener questions. Okay, rely got we all like ten minutes left, Okay, okay,
(20:00):
So these are listener questions we've collected from the episodes.
There's only four of them. Well but well, you know,
but that doesn't get very long for us. Okay. So
the first one is actually from our patron from Dennis,
who says, what do you think the impact will be
to the European parks of the new Universal park in Europe?
We talked about this on the episode when when the
(20:23):
when we talked about the Universal UK coming out, Scott,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think? I think that considering that we all have
a new Universal Park, a Pueeta Foo Park, the exists,
the current you know, Alton Towers did all of those,
I think it's only going to be good for the industry.
I think it's going to make it more of a
destination for people who are theme park goers. I think that,
(20:50):
you know, I think I told this story during the
the episode where we announced this when I was working
at Bush Gardens. I was working Atish Gardens when Animal
Kingdom opened, and that's an hour and fifth teen minutes away.
We were terrified that a park with animals and roller
coasters was opening within a drive distance of US, and
it was one of the best years to date. Things
(21:11):
have changed since then, but todate it was one of
the best attendance years Bush Gardens had because people were
coming from around the world who had an interest in
animals and roller coasters, and while they were here they decided, Oh, well,
we'll come for Animal Kingdom, but hey, there's this Bush
Gardens thing. This sounds cool too, let's go check that out.
So it actually ended up drawing more tourism to the area,
(21:31):
to the Central Florida area and was beneficial for us.
So I I think at least in the short term,
it's going to be really really strong. Now is it
going to Is it going to cannibalize the existing parks?
Not initially, I don't think, and it.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Will, We'll have to that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I'm going to hold my I'm going to hold my
final land for a while because I really don't know
enough about how these are going to impact things like
basic travel and infrastructure for the cities, how difficult it's
going to be to get to these places. But if
it's based on previous experience, I think it's going to
(22:20):
be great for tourism in the area. And I don't
think it's going to shut out the existing parks. In fact,
I think it's going to help them at least in
the short term. Yep, I agree with all that.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I think we saw the same thing with Epic is
what I would add to where you saw. You know,
Disney saw a pretty big boost. Even Sea World Orlando
saw a boost in numbers. So I think that in
the short term it's going to lead to because again
people instead of going somewhere else, people are going to
stay there to go, and they'll come from around the
area in a shorter trip to come to that, and
(22:50):
while they're in the area, they can do other things.
The question is going to be how quickly are they
going to adjust to offer. They're not gonna be able
to compete on the same metrics, so again it's how
are you find that point of differentiation. So it's going
to be up to how how quickly they will find
that point of differentiation when the dust settles and make
a value proposition by being like, if you come to
(23:12):
this park, you can also come to ours because we
offer something different.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So right, yeah, find don't try to compete head to head,
don't try to be universal, don't try to be Puis
de fou Be, and I keep using Alton towersco It's
just the first one that comes to mind. But be
who you are, play into that, play into that history,
because let's face it, you know coaster nerds. There are
certain coaster nerds that want to see those those parks
(23:38):
that have been around that they've only dreamt of. And
they may have an excuse now because Universal is going
to be there, but they're still going to visit those parks.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah. So this next question comes from Alexander Simms sixteen thirteen.
They say, hypothetically, let's say you worked for a company
who did architectural work for the Big two, but you
do everything except the massive CAPEX projects. Obviously very hypothetical.
If you wanted to get into the mid tier parks
like Hershe and Cedar, six Flags or international parks so
(24:09):
you could have more say in the creative how would
you go about approaching them, especially without your large portfolio
of work.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, if you are, let me let me go back
to the hypothetical situation here. If you are doing architectural
work for the Big two, you have a portfolio of work.
Let's start there. You have a portfolio of work. It
may not be, it may be more of.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
But there's work there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, if you're working in an architectural firm, you have
a portfolio. I will say that everybody wants to do
creative because everyone thinks that creative is the cool job.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So much competition, Yeah, there's so much.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Competition, and that's you know, I deal with it. I
battle this every single day of my career, which is
why I have no problem working in the smaller and
more mid range arenas because that way I get to
do what I love. So I guess my point is,
you know, if you're looking to get into the the
(25:09):
hershand seater doesn't exist anymore. If you're looking in to
get into Hershend six Flags, that kind of thing, contact
them and say, next time you do an RFP, include me.
See if you can get your name on their their
request for proposal or request for quote so that you
can put in a bid. Because you know, you may
(25:31):
think you may think, well, I haven't built a major attraction.
All I've built is you know, three restaurants and a
bathroom and a gift shop. Okay, then then use that
to your advantage. Use that to show what you can
do and get your foot in the.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Door, would you suggest that they like quit their day job,
or because I'm sure that there's some sort of like well,
I don't know if they have that in their contract
or not, but I means.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
This is all hypothetical anyway, So yeah, that's right, it's
all yp me.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But hypothetically speaking, if a person had had a had
a job, a day job, you know, would you would
you try and do something with the day job first,
like would you go to your management and make like
a ask for some sort of a career plan, you know?
Or would you quit and then go try and find
work like in the Middle East, or try and find
work for a different company or whatever. Or would you
(26:22):
while you're still employed at that said job hypothetically, would
you would you try and submit as a freelancer.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, hypothetically, if you're working at a job where you're
working at them, there's probably a non compete clause, so
chances are hypothetically good that you wouldn't be able to
do this without hypothetically quitting, so.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
You can.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
And I would also venture to say that if indeed
this were the case where you've been working on some
some of the architecture, because I mean you know it
says massive Capex projects. If you're working in architecture, you're
working in the world of Capex.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, already just not massive.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Captain's not massive Capex and you're not working on the
sexy projects. And what I'm hearing is I'm building. I'm
building gift shops. I want to be building attractions. That's
what I'm hearing. So if that is the case, use
your expertise, take what you do, take what you do
really well, and lead with that. Say you know, I am,
here's examples of me being on time, on budget. Here's
(27:26):
the challenges that we overcame. So I run, you know,
I run parallel, parallel paths just in case something does
happen or when something does happen, so that I can
keep us on time and on budget. You know, lead
with your strengths, Lead with your strengths, and get that
foot in the door. You know, there's never going to
be a magic bullet. There's never going to be a
magic bullet where you know, I can say if you
(27:47):
read this book, or if you do this, or if
you contact this person, then you will get the next
bid you put in. That does not happen, that simply
does not happen. But I will say surround yourself with
like minded people. Be in the room with the people
where it happens. That's why things like you know, Iappa
Expo are so flip and important, and not just Diappa,
but you know, TEA other organizations that are within the industry.
(28:11):
Aza to make sure that you are making the connection
so that they know who you are. They're not going
to seek you out, especially if you're working for somebody else.
The chances of a headhunter coming to you and saying
you are the master at building restaurants and we want
you to build this roller coaster, they're not going.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So you've got to take the You've got to take
the responsibility and you know, take the skill set that
you have and lead with it. Don't panic to him.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Okay. Next question from bill O five Q seventeen. With
most big parks being mature and landlocked, and with new
coasters being very expensive, do you foresee a greater trend
of older coasters being renewed rather than the usual move
of ripping out an older coaster for a new one.
This could even include non coaster attractions like see King's
(29:03):
Island redoing their boot blasters attraction.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I'm gonna have I have a very unpopular answer to
this question. I don't think the future of theme park
I don't think the long term future of theme parks
is coasters. I think it is unique attractions. I think
we have pushed coasters to the point where unless it
is surrounded by multimedia, unless it is part of a
(29:30):
much bigger experience, I think the days of just coasters.
I mean, we just we just reported on it, you know,
we just reported on the park that chose not to
do the coaster and chose instead to do Bugs Bunny
and Friends family experience. So I think it's I think
(29:53):
it's important to recognize that you're right, they are land blocked.
You're right. And it's expensive to tear down a coaster,
by the way, but quite often it's cheaper to tear
it down and start from scratch than it is to
redo a coaster. The example, the only example that I know,
and I can't share numbers, but I know that with
(30:16):
h when they put iron Guasi in at at Bush
Gardens in Tampa. You know, originally the plan was to
reutilize as much of the track as possible, and they
claim that a lot of it was reused, but the
percentage of reused material from the original coaster is so
minimal it's it's almost embarrassing. So I'm not sure that
(30:41):
coasters are going to be the thing that people are
going to. I think the pendulum is going to swing
away from them. That is my That is my prediction.
I could be one hundred percent wrong, but based on
what I'm seeing, unless the coaster is a record breaker
or tied to a specific IP in a way that
(31:02):
no other coaster experiences that IP.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
And that doesn't mean just.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Call it you know, sorry, I'm gonna pick on my
friends on Warner Brothers. Don't just call it Joker's Revenge
and make it a purple coaster. No, it has to
be intimately tied to the IP, or it utilizes some
sort of or it utilizes some sort of technology that
is not being utilized on any other coaster. I mean,
(31:28):
you know, let's be honest. Guardians of the Galaxy is
a coaster, but that experience so surpasses any coaster that
you'll see in any midrange park because the focus is
not on the coaster, it's on the whole experience.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
The only thing I'm gonna add to that is just
that the research that we talked about a few episodes
ago about travel trends, which I know a lot of people,
you know, we're like, oh, this research is something about
but I'm like, look, it was still a good sample
size one thousand people in that age range that are
in the US and go to an entergy, So it's
still a poll that pay attention to. And this is
exactly what they said. Also, is that it's like the
(32:06):
days of kind of waiting having your checklist, you know,
and spending so much time in line and kind of
waiting for the marquee things is kind of over because
at least right now for them, And so I think
it probably is a pendulum thing though, you know, as
everything is, I'm sure you know, it'll swing back to
people wanting to do the marquee things, But for now,
(32:26):
it seems like people are it's more about vibes right now,
and they're not really for the vibe of waiting so
long for just single like it's like the buck this
is like not worth it, right. It's like that thing
of like if you're waiting two or three hours for
a thing that's a minute long. It's kind of the
calculus is not there well.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
And speaking of vibes, we hope that we have left
you with enough of good vibes for twenty twenty five,
and that these good vibes continue for twenty twenty six
on behalf of Yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So we did not finish all of our questions theme
Park JJ. There's still one that we have, but we
have talked about what you've asked before. Sorry, yeah, maybe
we can. Let's okay, I know it's.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Well, we've already gone over time.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Go ahead, Okay, let's just finish this one. Okay, so
we've already.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Messed up my goodbye, so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, Theme Park JJ,
He says, you two always talk about creature comforts driving
guest rates of return. I've noticed that the other side
of the coin are the pain points that drive them away.
I'm referring to little stuff like the four dollars mandatory
Guassi loggers, you know, guasi reservations at Disney, unannounced buyouts
like Red Coconut. How do parks convince operations to remove
(33:41):
those small hurdles for the greater good? Have you seen
any easy fixes? That could massively improve guest scores. We
so we do talk about those quite a lot. Scott
has a whole rant about the reservations that Disney that
hasn't gone.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I won't go. I won't go till they're gone.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I don't know. This is a great question for Scott.
Who's who's been in those roles before, who's kind of
straddled the two worlds of having to talk to I
think it's not usually operations though, this is usually something
that comes from a higher a different management position.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
All of these, all of these examples are actually revenue driven.
So so what you have to do is you have
to look at is there is there a way to
shift where this revenue comes from. And I'll give you
I will give you a perfect example. Parking. This is
a big issue. This just came up with another major
(34:39):
major player in the industry. Parking price is going up.
I'm a firm believer that you should take one fourth
of whatever it is that you want in parking and
add it to a ticket price and create free parking
for your guests. Yes, it's hidden, but you're still generating
that revenue.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
And will people.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Say, oh, oh my god, Well, the prices of theme
park tickets are already so high I can't afford it.
Blah blah blah. What if I'm not parking blah blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Okay, but it's.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Either you have to spend forty dollars. I'm using simple
math here. You either have to spend forty dollars to
park your car, or you add ten dollars to every
ticket for the four people in your car and give
free parking. You know, these revenue generators are going to
be there. They need to be there. The four dollars mandatory,
guasi locker mandatory. It's not mandatory if you have some,
(35:32):
if you have a purse holder, but not everybody does.
So what I would suggest again is incorporate that revenue
somewhere else so it's not the pinch point that drives
you away. This is what I talk about when I
talk about the concerns that I have of departments operating
individually from one another and not operating together as a park.
(35:52):
This is a situation. It sounds to me, and again
I'm not there, but it sounds to me like this
is a situation where the merchandise team, who is the
one who handles the revenue says we need to up
our revenue because we're not selling enough T shirts, so
we're going to make it a mandatory four dollars locker
that you have to do in guasi, which I think
is the wrong approach. Personally, I would I would take
(36:14):
that money and hide it elsewhere so that it doesn't
become that point of pain, and it doesn't. You know, yes,
they're still making the money, they're still taking it out
of our pockets. I understand all of that, but it's
still a business, so that the revenue still has to
be generated when you talk about buyouts. This has been
a point of contention with me and pretty much every
(36:36):
one of my clients ever, because every one of my
clients will have a beautiful facility that could be utilized
every single night for a Christmas event or a Halloween event,
or a summer event or whatever, but they hold off
and they say, no, you can't use that just in case,
it's my favorite phrase, just in case we might sell
it for a party. And so the only way around
(36:57):
that that I've found internally is to actually run the
numbers and say, okay, over the last five years, during
this month, how much revenue has this space generated, and
you take that and you do an average for that month,
and then you go back and say, okay, is it
worth that to use this to create a Santa Claus
experience for example, that is going to generate x amount
(37:19):
of dollars in photo sales and additional associated merchandise sales
and front of line access sales. So all of these
pain points that you mentioned, and I'm so glad you
mentioned it. I'm so glad Philip that you actually made it.
So we answered this because you knew I was going
to rant about it. These these Unfortunately, these dollars have
(37:41):
to be there somewhere, but I think there are smarter
ways to put them in so that they don't appear
as pain points and it doesn't feel as though people
are being nickeled and dimed. But it is finding a balance.
You have to figure out what is that balance between
feeling nickel and dimed and creating those little tin you know,
death by a thousand pinpricks or is it the sticker
(38:02):
shock you get when the ticket price goes up by
ten dollars. So I think that intelligent parks will find
ways to slip this money into different spaces, but the
best way to do it is to stop operating as
a bunch of departments occupying the same space and start
(38:24):
operating as a theme park that is looking at the
guest experience first.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Bye, Okay, Happy New Year. Everybody, have a great year,
and we will see you in twenty twenty six.
Okay, from our studios in Los Angeles and Tampa. This
is Green Tag Theme Park and thirty. I'm Philip and
I'm joined as always by my delightful co host Scott
Swinson of Scott Swinson greatd Development. On Green Tag, we
look at the week's top news and explain why it
matters to theme park professionals. This week, we're going to
be talking about the news that just dropped about the
potentially the new Universal park in the Middle East, and
(00:23):
then we're going to get two listener questions as this
is the last episode of the year and just in time,
I finally have my Christmas decorations up.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So, yeah, you put your Christmas decorations up? What the
day before Christmas?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, I mean that's when you're supposed to do it, right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
What are you living in the Edwardian era?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
What is this? You turned the tree together? It's an activity?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So did you trim the tree with everybody who you
celebrated with?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Of course? And I have my weird theme park ornaments. Yeah. Well,
we wanted to thank everyone who commented in last week's
episode as well, especially the common that add context to
what I left out, because usually it's me leaving stuff out.
So I think that's really important to get those details
(01:09):
in there whenever we miss anything, and I love reading
through them and seeing more details and information that I
didn't know about some items. So I think it's excellent
and we hope that you all will continue to do
that and correct me when I get information wrong or
leave stuff out not necessarily wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, And I think it's important to recognize too that
because Philip and I were just having this discussion before
we started the show today, that we are doing this
show so that it prompts conversation, and if we continue
to build this online community where you guys can chat
with each other and share your knowledge, your expertise, your experience,
where we just have kind of tipped the first domino,
(01:47):
and you guys can continue to fall and make it
a greater, more impactful experience. That makes us feel really
good because that's kind of the purpose, that's kind of
the point of the show. You know, we're not here
to give you in thirty minutes, every single minute detail
about every single thing that's happening in the industry. That
that's a really, first of all, a really dull show.
And secondly, we couldn't maintain that, and by way, I
mean Philip because he does all the research. So it's
(02:09):
it's one of those situations where we really I just
want to echo what Philip was saying. We really appreciate
the fact that you're building a community. You're building an
online community that we just kind of helped steer and
point in the right direction. So yeah, I love hearing
all the He's even got me starting to read him
and I never read stuff online. I'm able, but I
(02:30):
believe it. But it's really it's really fun because you
guys are taking and sharing your expertise, your knowledge, your
experience on the topics that we've sort of put the
framework out there for. So we'll continue to try to
give you these canvases and you just continue to paint
like crazy because it makes us all better. It makes
it a much richer experience for all of us, and
(02:51):
it builds that online community where we can actually help
one another.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yep. Well, I think the perfect way to kind of
end this year, aside from listener questions, of course, because
that's a great way to get some feedback, but it's
also news about a new theme park are potentially news,
and this was a pretty massive story that actually the
Wall Street Journal broke exclusively, and it seems like they
have some sources that they were able to corroborate this with.
(03:18):
So I'll read here from the article which is which
is from the Wall Street Journal. It says the Water
Journal reported that Universal Destinations and Experiences had become early
planning for a theme park in Saudi Arabia with potential
funding from a government backed entity through a licensing deal.
Six Flags Kidia will open, of course on December thirty first,
and the Dragon ball Z Park and water park under
(03:39):
construction in the city. Of course, this comes after Disney
has announced a similar deal to build a new theme
park in Abu Dhabi. And of course Universal just opened
the Epic Universe this year and twenty twenty six they're
going to be opening Universal Kids Resort, and they have
announced the first theme park in the UK, the Universal's
first theme park in the UK. So here I'm quoting
(04:00):
directly from the article. Here it said that Disney said
It's Abu Dhabi theme park would be a creative to
earnings from the day it opens, unlike parts it's built
itself that typically take a well turn of profit. Universal
previously tried to make a move into the Middle East
in two thousand and eight when it broke round with
a partner on Universal Studios Dubailan, but little more than
a grand entrance art just built before financing fell apart
(04:20):
to the global financial crisis, the project was eventually canceled.
So the author isn't drawing the direct line in there
between the two. But I think what they're trying to
say is that if it's a licensing deal, which is
what they're saying it is, then it would operate in
the same way that the Disney plan is, which we
talked about that extensively when that news was announced, And
(04:44):
it seems like when we talk about then, is that
it's win win because if they're just licensing it, they
don't have to put their own money into it, and
they still get the presence in the area. And as
we have talked about a lot on the show and
has been backed by a lot of the research from
the Global Index support that the TEA puts out that
the Middle East is really the place where a lot
(05:04):
of the new construction is happening and a lot of
the funding is in the industry is going on right now.
It's like you know we said previously too, if you
want a job, that's a place to go because there's
so much that's going on there. So to me, I'm
not my little well always have conpiracy theories about this,
but I kind of think that this is one where
(05:26):
I'm not sure if it wasn't leaked on purpose, because
to me, I think the thing that I was thinking
as soon as Disney announced, we have all these dominoes
creating this competitive atmosphere there, and to me, the biggest
thing that was missing was Universal and it was almost
becoming a liability in my mind, like what is Universal
(05:47):
doing about the Middle East? Because they have they don't
have a big, a big presence there that's like this
like a park, you know, and they just opened Epic
and like all this stuff. So I almost would say
this could have been planned as a way to drum
up because the whole story is literally just that there's
talks about this thing happening, and if it happened, it
would be a licensing thing. So there's not really anything,
(06:08):
but I think it's just enough to keep it out
there where it's like Universal isn't rolling over in this market,
Like Universal is trying to make this market work, and
if they did it in the same way as dining
with the licensing, it would be the shareholders would be
very happy because it's not going to take any money.
It's just going to be a licenseing. So they'll just
(06:29):
make money again from day one, they'll have money and
they'll have access to that audience. So are there any downsides?
I don't know. I mean, got a lot to go back.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
This is the kind of thing. This is the kind
of thing that it's a perfect example of when the
government says, especially a government that is so centralized and
has such very deep pockets, when they decide, here's what
we're going to do by twenty thirty, you know, because
that's the project. Twenty thirty is the Saudi the Saudi
deadline basically, or for creating their huge they're they're huge
(07:07):
guest engagement, they're huge for a into attractions, they're huge
for a into becoming the destination point in that part
of the world. And so when they have the opportunity
to have discussions with Universal, of course they're going to
have them and they're gonna they're going to do it
the same way. All of the UAE, all of Yas Island,
and Abu Dhabi was done. You know, everybody thinks it's
(07:28):
the Sea World park is SeaWorld. We've talked about it
many many times. It's not its own by morale, it's
licensed through SeaWorld. It is sort of sort of a
joint venture, I would say. But the same is true
with Ferrari World. The same is true with Warner Brothers World,
and the same will be true with Disney in Saudi.
The same is true with Six Flags, The same is
true with Aquarabia, the same is true with Dragon Ball
Z and I'm guessing the same. I mean, obviously the
(07:51):
same will be true here with with Universal. So it
is a it is a very different way of doing things,
although Disney's been doing it for years. Quite honestly, you know,
there are Disney parks around the world that are not
truly Disney parks. They're run to Disney standards, but in
essence they are a franchise or a lease deal. I'm oversimplifying,
(08:13):
I realize, But so, yeah, this does not This does
not surprise me in the least. What surprises me is
honestly that it's taken this long for this information to
come out, you know, after because Philip and I had
the opportunity to walk the Six Flags Park when it
was under construction in Kadea last year, last year, earlier
(08:36):
this year at some point in time, and this year
March right or February. February sounds good to me, but
unfortunately we weren't able to take any photos or take
any any video because obviously it was still a working
construction site. And you know the fact that it is
scheduled to open this week, the week that this will air,
(08:58):
that's that's huge. And the main reason I say that's
huge is having looked at it earlier this year, both
Philip and I thought this is going to open when?
And and now it's ready to go. And you know,
if you want to see what it's all about, go
ahead and check out the There's there's video everywhere of
the new coaster. There's video everywhere. I mean, it's like
five world record holder coasters. There's and and what's interesting
(09:21):
is you know it's all happening at night because they
won't open until at least four pm is what they
told us. So it's a different way of looking at
theme park. And I think that's the that's the true
takeaway as theme parks expand into the Middle East, It's
not going to be the same way we think of
theme parks here because the culture is different. And you know,
(09:46):
I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just different.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
And so there's.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Going to be the parks are going to have much
more of a focus on how do they look when
they're lit at night because that's when the most that's
when the most g are going to see how the
parks operate is in darkness. So lighting will become significantly
more important as far as a business business move I
think this makes just total sense. I think that Disney.
(10:15):
I think Disney being in Abu Dhabi is another reason
that Universal was sparked to either leak or announce the
possibility of a park in Saudi because they didn't want
to show that they hadn't stepped up to the party.
As Philip was saying, you know, this is a they
need to make sure that they're part of the game,
and this announcement shows that, you know, they're not completely
(10:39):
oblivious to the fact that this is where the attractions
industry is exploding at the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
YEP. So it's interesting when you talk about the how
it's going to be different there. I didn't really think
about that, but it's totally it's very true. I mean,
you think about Tokyo Disneyland, right being one of the
most famous I think examples of a licensing deal, but
where they built it to a higher standard even I
(11:05):
think than than I think that that's gonna because you know,
it's going to be just a different theme park experience
to be there in the Middle East, not just because
of the culture, but like they will make it different
because when we've said this, I mean the the Six
Slaves Kidia is the best Six Slags park, and the
same is true with the Sea World. I think it's
(11:26):
like there, it's just that weird thing, you know where
the US, you know, we start the theme parks that
we don't we didn't know we didn't start theme parks,
but you know, we our theme parks were built a
while ago, is a way to put it, and so
some of the infrastructure is you know, like it depends
right on. Like Disney is pretty good at upkeep and
(11:47):
reimagining things, but that's not true with everybody. So you know,
we but our our theme parks been around for longer, right,
and then you have these places which are building everything
right now, and so it's kind of like building their
first theme parks now when the theme park like industry
has already evolved to a specific point. So their baseline
(12:09):
is going to be a lot different than our baseline here.
And I think that that's that's something I think people
don't really think about because you know, I mean that
it's just it's just gonna be a whole different experience
because you know, imagine if well it's yeah, I guess
it's it. It's just like when Orlando and everything is
built roughly around the same time. Hm, you know, I
imagine that. And remember Magic came to only opened with
(12:31):
a few I mean it was it wasn't what it was.
I mean that's where well.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Disney World opened only with Magic Kingdom and two hotels. Yep,
when they opened, there were two hotels and the Magic
Kingdom and that was it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
So and I think by those standards, they're doing better.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Well imagine, yeah, imagine, you know, our base the baseline
was that was what seventy mid seventies when what Disney
World opened, So just that was the baseline. Then they've
they've learned from you know, all those years of experience
and have been watching carefully and studying carefully and investing appropriately,
(13:14):
putting money where they need to, and they don't. They're
not putting themselves in a position where the parks, uh
I excuse me, where the parks have to turn a
profit instantly. Even though the article says that the Disney
park will be set up to do that, which I
think they're.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Right for Disney, it will because Disney, Yeah, a licensing deal.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, they're you know, they're well, Disney's making money off
of it now that licensing deal has already started. They're
making money. Disney is making money off of it now
and the park's not even open yet. So but I
think that the intent to build to play a longer
game is something that is also unique. So they've got
(13:54):
they've got two things working in their favorite. Number one,
they have a baseline that is significantly higher based on
the successes and failures that have happened in other places
around the world, so they kind of know what they
can and cannot do. I think Dubai was another great
testing ground. I think that we learned from motion Gate.
You know, you can't operate an outdoor park during the
day yep. So what have they done in Abu Dhabi
(14:15):
all of the parks are indoors or will only operate
at night yep, or their water parks yep. Well, I
don't think there's to me. I mean, I was trying
to think about if there are any downsides. The only
downside I could think about is that when Disney the announcement,
they got a lot of blowback for the cultural you
know elements which are in the in the article. That's
(14:36):
whyll the Wall Street Journal article mentions that, and I
just think, I know that this blowback is going to
happen again. But to me, being in the industry and
watching where this goes to me, I've decided, I mean
it is I can even say for our business, for Gantum,
for my business, it's you have to be in this market.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
You don't have a choice. And so I think it's
a little bit different for the that are professionals in
the industry, like you have to be in the market.
I mean, I guess you know, you don't have to
work if you're a contractor, you don't have to take
jobs there. But if you're a manufacturer supplier like we are,
you have to. You have to be in. You just
you have to be there. And that's why Ayappa's going there,
and that's why you see so much movement there because
(15:20):
you just you have to you have to. I mean
a lot of the attractions. People kind of flow where
the building is. You know, they move there. So Asia
had its had its moment right when Tokyo and then
We're being built, and then you had Osaka Universal Beijing.
I mean, you people, you kind of we move around,
you know where where the work is, and this is
where the work is, and so that's so you kind
(15:42):
of you have to be there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So and and you know, I'm sure that there's somebody
who is listening to this or watching us on on
YouTube has already put in a comment. Yes, but it's
a horrible place. They treat people horribly. I know, I
know that comment's already there. And so I want you
to think about it this way if you feel that
that is still true. And you know, I'm only basing
it on my experience in the two times I've been
(16:03):
to Saudi. Two times. Two times i've been to Saudi,
the culture, I did not find the culture nearly as
oppressive or as terrifying as people want to make it
out to be. I may be looking at it through
rose colored glasses, and I may have been put in
a position where I wasn't going to see any of
that supposed trauma or negativity. But I also want you
(16:30):
to think that if they are trying to be a
worldwide destination, then opening attractions like this could conceivably change
the views of their country and change the ways the country,
changes the culture of the country, because they need to
make certain that everyone is feeling welcome. Now I can
say without hesitation, because I was in you a longer
(16:53):
in the UAE, they stand by it. They hold amorati
to a very high standard. They hold people who are
of Islamic faith to a very high standard. Those rules
have not changed. However, they do have a much more
live and let live response to those people who are
not emmorati and who are not of the Islamic faith,
(17:17):
which is why every hotel has a bar, which is
against the against the law everywhere else. But they recognize
not the whole world doesn't operate the same way we do,
and if we want to encourage them to come and
visit us, we need to make space. We need to
make room for those people who have different views from ourselves.
So it is possible that this announcement, this Universal announcement,
(17:40):
and the Disney announcement, and every other announcement that has
been made, you know, the Warner Brothers expansion that nobody
remembers of Harry Potter World, which is under construction right now.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I know, which is this is funny, It's gonna be gigantic.
That was not mentioned in any of these articles. And
I was like, yeah, they've kind of forgotten about it.
They'll forget about it until it opens. But all of
these things may actually, instead of forcing people to visit
a quote unquote impressive country, it may actually cause the
(18:12):
country to make space for people who view things differently.
And it may actually adjust the culture as well, because again,
these are business people. They're smart business people, and they
want to make certain that these things work. So if
you don't want to go to the Middle East, don't
go to the Middle East. I'm fine with that. If
(18:33):
you don't want to go wherever you don't want to go,
you do you. All I'm saying is, make sure you've
done your research, make sure that you're not just believing
the first thing you read. Talk to people who've lived there.
I know several people to kind of tag onto what
Philip was saying about. We go where the work is,
we go where the construction is. I know many people
(18:54):
from the US who still maintain their US citizenship who
are living in either Dubai or bahbudah Be or ri
Odd and they have they have chosen to live there
permanently because they as one guy says, I can't live
this well back in the United States. I am paid
well for what I do. There's always work. He's a freelancer,
(19:16):
there's always work for me. He lives in a high
rise that looks out with the Burj Khalifa in Dubai.
So you know, you just have to kind of look
look at the people who've actually done it. Ask them,
because if you're in this industry, I can promise you
you will know people who have done work in the
(19:38):
Middle East. So ask them if you have any questions,
because I just think that this this is going to
be a hub at least for the next I would
say ten to fifteen years. Yeah I agree with that. Yeah, Okay, okay,
we got we gota. We got to move on to
listener questions. Okay, rely got we all like ten minutes left, Okay, okay,
(20:00):
So these are listener questions we've collected from the episodes.
There's only four of them. Well but well, you know,
but that doesn't get very long for us. Okay. So
the first one is actually from our patron from Dennis,
who says, what do you think the impact will be
to the European parks of the new Universal park in Europe?
We talked about this on the episode when when the
(20:23):
when we talked about the Universal UK coming out, Scott,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think? I think that considering that we all have
a new Universal Park, a Pueeta Foo Park, the exists,
the current you know, Alton Towers did all of those,
I think it's only going to be good for the industry.
I think it's going to make it more of a
destination for people who are theme park goers. I think that,
(20:50):
you know, I think I told this story during the
the episode where we announced this when I was working
at Bush Gardens. I was working Atish Gardens when Animal
Kingdom opened, and that's an hour and fifth teen minutes away.
We were terrified that a park with animals and roller
coasters was opening within a drive distance of US, and
it was one of the best years to date. Things
(21:11):
have changed since then, but todate it was one of
the best attendance years Bush Gardens had because people were
coming from around the world who had an interest in
animals and roller coasters, and while they were here they decided, Oh, well,
we'll come for Animal Kingdom, but hey, there's this Bush
Gardens thing. This sounds cool too, let's go check that out.
So it actually ended up drawing more tourism to the area,
(21:31):
to the Central Florida area and was beneficial for us.
So I I think at least in the short term,
it's going to be really really strong. Now is it
going to Is it going to cannibalize the existing parks?
Not initially, I don't think, and it.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Will, We'll have to that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I'm going to hold my I'm going to hold my
final land for a while because I really don't know
enough about how these are going to impact things like
basic travel and infrastructure for the cities, how difficult it's
going to be to get to these places. But if
it's based on previous experience, I think it's going to
(22:20):
be great for tourism in the area. And I don't
think it's going to shut out the existing parks. In fact,
I think it's going to help them at least in
the short term. Yep, I agree with all that.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I think we saw the same thing with Epic is
what I would add to where you saw. You know,
Disney saw a pretty big boost. Even Sea World Orlando
saw a boost in numbers. So I think that in
the short term it's going to lead to because again
people instead of going somewhere else, people are going to
stay there to go, and they'll come from around the
area in a shorter trip to come to that, and
(22:50):
while they're in the area, they can do other things.
The question is going to be how quickly are they
going to adjust to offer. They're not gonna be able
to compete on the same metrics, so again it's how
are you find that point of differentiation. So it's going
to be up to how how quickly they will find
that point of differentiation when the dust settles and make
a value proposition by being like, if you come to
(23:12):
this park, you can also come to ours because we
offer something different.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So right, yeah, find don't try to compete head to head,
don't try to be universal, don't try to be Puis
de fou Be, and I keep using Alton towersco It's
just the first one that comes to mind. But be
who you are, play into that, play into that history,
because let's face it, you know coaster nerds. There are
certain coaster nerds that want to see those those parks
(23:38):
that have been around that they've only dreamt of. And
they may have an excuse now because Universal is going
to be there, but they're still going to visit those parks.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah. So this next question comes from Alexander Simms sixteen thirteen.
They say, hypothetically, let's say you worked for a company
who did architectural work for the Big two, but you
do everything except the massive CAPEX projects. Obviously very hypothetical.
If you wanted to get into the mid tier parks
like Hershe and Cedar, six Flags or international parks so
(24:09):
you could have more say in the creative how would
you go about approaching them, especially without your large portfolio
of work.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, if you are, let me let me go back
to the hypothetical situation here. If you are doing architectural
work for the Big two, you have a portfolio of work.
Let's start there. You have a portfolio of work. It
may not be, it may be more of.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
But there's work there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, if you're working in an architectural firm, you have
a portfolio. I will say that everybody wants to do
creative because everyone thinks that creative is the cool job.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So much competition, Yeah, there's so much.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Competition, and that's you know, I deal with it. I
battle this every single day of my career, which is
why I have no problem working in the smaller and
more mid range arenas because that way I get to
do what I love. So I guess my point is,
you know, if you're looking to get into the the
(25:09):
hershand seater doesn't exist anymore. If you're looking in to
get into Hershend six Flags, that kind of thing, contact
them and say, next time you do an RFP, include me.
See if you can get your name on their their
request for proposal or request for quote so that you
can put in a bid. Because you know, you may
(25:31):
think you may think, well, I haven't built a major attraction.
All I've built is you know, three restaurants and a
bathroom and a gift shop. Okay, then then use that
to your advantage. Use that to show what you can
do and get your foot in the.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Door, would you suggest that they like quit their day job,
or because I'm sure that there's some sort of like well,
I don't know if they have that in their contract
or not, but I means.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
This is all hypothetical anyway, So yeah, that's right, it's
all yp me.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But hypothetically speaking, if a person had had a had
a job, a day job, you know, would you would
you try and do something with the day job first,
like would you go to your management and make like
a ask for some sort of a career plan, you know?
Or would you quit and then go try and find
work like in the Middle East, or try and find
work for a different company or whatever. Or would you
(26:22):
while you're still employed at that said job hypothetically, would
you would you try and submit as a freelancer.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, hypothetically, if you're working at a job where you're
working at them, there's probably a non compete clause, so
chances are hypothetically good that you wouldn't be able to
do this without hypothetically quitting, so.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
You can.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
And I would also venture to say that if indeed
this were the case where you've been working on some
some of the architecture, because I mean you know it
says massive Capex projects. If you're working in architecture, you're
working in the world of Capex.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, already just not massive.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Captain's not massive Capex and you're not working on the
sexy projects. And what I'm hearing is I'm building. I'm
building gift shops. I want to be building attractions. That's
what I'm hearing. So if that is the case, use
your expertise, take what you do, take what you do
really well, and lead with that. Say you know, I am,
here's examples of me being on time, on budget. Here's
(27:26):
the challenges that we overcame. So I run, you know,
I run parallel, parallel paths just in case something does
happen or when something does happen, so that I can
keep us on time and on budget. You know, lead
with your strengths, Lead with your strengths, and get that
foot in the door. You know, there's never going to
be a magic bullet. There's never going to be a
magic bullet where you know, I can say if you
(27:47):
read this book, or if you do this, or if
you contact this person, then you will get the next
bid you put in. That does not happen, that simply
does not happen. But I will say surround yourself with
like minded people. Be in the room with the people
where it happens. That's why things like you know, Iappa
Expo are so flip and important, and not just Diappa,
but you know, TEA other organizations that are within the industry.
(28:11):
Aza to make sure that you are making the connection
so that they know who you are. They're not going
to seek you out, especially if you're working for somebody else.
The chances of a headhunter coming to you and saying
you are the master at building restaurants and we want
you to build this roller coaster, they're not going.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So you've got to take the You've got to take
the responsibility and you know, take the skill set that
you have and lead with it. Don't panic to him.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Okay. Next question from bill O five Q seventeen. With
most big parks being mature and landlocked, and with new
coasters being very expensive, do you foresee a greater trend
of older coasters being renewed rather than the usual move
of ripping out an older coaster for a new one.
This could even include non coaster attractions like see King's
(29:03):
Island redoing their boot blasters attraction.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I'm gonna have I have a very unpopular answer to
this question. I don't think the future of theme park
I don't think the long term future of theme parks
is coasters. I think it is unique attractions. I think
we have pushed coasters to the point where unless it
is surrounded by multimedia, unless it is part of a
(29:30):
much bigger experience, I think the days of just coasters.
I mean, we just we just reported on it, you know,
we just reported on the park that chose not to
do the coaster and chose instead to do Bugs Bunny
and Friends family experience. So I think it's I think
(29:53):
it's important to recognize that you're right, they are land blocked.
You're right. And it's expensive to tear down a coaster,
by the way, but quite often it's cheaper to tear
it down and start from scratch than it is to
redo a coaster. The example, the only example that I know,
and I can't share numbers, but I know that with
(30:16):
h when they put iron Guasi in at at Bush
Gardens in Tampa. You know, originally the plan was to
reutilize as much of the track as possible, and they
claim that a lot of it was reused, but the
percentage of reused material from the original coaster is so
minimal it's it's almost embarrassing. So I'm not sure that
(30:41):
coasters are going to be the thing that people are
going to. I think the pendulum is going to swing
away from them. That is my That is my prediction.
I could be one hundred percent wrong, but based on
what I'm seeing, unless the coaster is a record breaker
or tied to a specific IP in a way that
(31:02):
no other coaster experiences that IP.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
And that doesn't mean just.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Call it you know, sorry, I'm gonna pick on my
friends on Warner Brothers. Don't just call it Joker's Revenge
and make it a purple coaster. No, it has to
be intimately tied to the IP, or it utilizes some
sort of or it utilizes some sort of technology that
is not being utilized on any other coaster. I mean,
(31:28):
you know, let's be honest. Guardians of the Galaxy is
a coaster, but that experience so surpasses any coaster that
you'll see in any midrange park because the focus is
not on the coaster, it's on the whole experience.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
The only thing I'm gonna add to that is just
that the research that we talked about a few episodes
ago about travel trends, which I know a lot of people,
you know, we're like, oh, this research is something about
but I'm like, look, it was still a good sample
size one thousand people in that age range that are
in the US and go to an entergy, So it's
still a poll that pay attention to. And this is
exactly what they said. Also, is that it's like the
(32:06):
days of kind of waiting having your checklist, you know,
and spending so much time in line and kind of
waiting for the marquee things is kind of over because
at least right now for them, And so I think
it probably is a pendulum thing though, you know, as
everything is, I'm sure you know, it'll swing back to
people wanting to do the marquee things, But for now,
(32:26):
it seems like people are it's more about vibes right now,
and they're not really for the vibe of waiting so
long for just single like it's like the buck this
is like not worth it, right. It's like that thing
of like if you're waiting two or three hours for
a thing that's a minute long. It's kind of the
calculus is not there well.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
And speaking of vibes, we hope that we have left
you with enough of good vibes for twenty twenty five,
and that these good vibes continue for twenty twenty six
on behalf of Yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So we did not finish all of our questions theme
Park JJ. There's still one that we have, but we
have talked about what you've asked before. Sorry, yeah, maybe
we can. Let's okay, I know it's.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Well, we've already gone over time.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Go ahead, Okay, let's just finish this one. Okay, so
we've already.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Messed up my goodbye, so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, Theme Park JJ,
He says, you two always talk about creature comforts driving
guest rates of return. I've noticed that the other side
of the coin are the pain points that drive them away.
I'm referring to little stuff like the four dollars mandatory
Guassi loggers, you know, guasi reservations at Disney, unannounced buyouts
like Red Coconut. How do parks convince operations to remove
(33:41):
those small hurdles for the greater good? Have you seen
any easy fixes? That could massively improve guest scores. We
so we do talk about those quite a lot. Scott
has a whole rant about the reservations that Disney that
hasn't gone.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I won't go. I won't go till they're gone.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I don't know. This is a great question for Scott.
Who's who's been in those roles before, who's kind of
straddled the two worlds of having to talk to I
think it's not usually operations though, this is usually something
that comes from a higher a different management position.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
All of these, all of these examples are actually revenue driven.
So so what you have to do is you have
to look at is there is there a way to
shift where this revenue comes from. And I'll give you
I will give you a perfect example. Parking. This is
a big issue. This just came up with another major
(34:39):
major player in the industry. Parking price is going up.
I'm a firm believer that you should take one fourth
of whatever it is that you want in parking and
add it to a ticket price and create free parking
for your guests. Yes, it's hidden, but you're still generating
that revenue.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
And will people.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Say, oh, oh my god, Well, the prices of theme
park tickets are already so high I can't afford it.
Blah blah blah. What if I'm not parking blah blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Okay, but it's.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Either you have to spend forty dollars. I'm using simple
math here. You either have to spend forty dollars to
park your car, or you add ten dollars to every
ticket for the four people in your car and give
free parking. You know, these revenue generators are going to
be there. They need to be there. The four dollars mandatory,
guasi locker mandatory. It's not mandatory if you have some,
(35:32):
if you have a purse holder, but not everybody does.
So what I would suggest again is incorporate that revenue
somewhere else so it's not the pinch point that drives
you away. This is what I talk about when I
talk about the concerns that I have of departments operating
individually from one another and not operating together as a park.
(35:52):
This is a situation. It sounds to me, and again
I'm not there, but it sounds to me like this
is a situation where the merchandise team, who is the
one who handles the revenue says we need to up
our revenue because we're not selling enough T shirts, so
we're going to make it a mandatory four dollars locker
that you have to do in guasi, which I think
is the wrong approach. Personally, I would I would take
(36:14):
that money and hide it elsewhere so that it doesn't
become that point of pain, and it doesn't. You know, yes,
they're still making the money, they're still taking it out
of our pockets. I understand all of that, but it's
still a business, so that the revenue still has to
be generated when you talk about buyouts. This has been
a point of contention with me and pretty much every
(36:36):
one of my clients ever, because every one of my
clients will have a beautiful facility that could be utilized
every single night for a Christmas event or a Halloween event,
or a summer event or whatever, but they hold off
and they say, no, you can't use that just in case,
it's my favorite phrase, just in case we might sell
it for a party. And so the only way around
(36:57):
that that I've found internally is to actually run the
numbers and say, okay, over the last five years, during
this month, how much revenue has this space generated, and
you take that and you do an average for that month,
and then you go back and say, okay, is it
worth that to use this to create a Santa Claus
experience for example, that is going to generate x amount
(37:19):
of dollars in photo sales and additional associated merchandise sales
and front of line access sales. So all of these
pain points that you mentioned, and I'm so glad you
mentioned it. I'm so glad Philip that you actually made it.
So we answered this because you knew I was going
to rant about it. These these Unfortunately, these dollars have
(37:41):
to be there somewhere, but I think there are smarter
ways to put them in so that they don't appear
as pain points and it doesn't feel as though people
are being nickeled and dimed. But it is finding a balance.
You have to figure out what is that balance between
feeling nickel and dimed and creating those little tin you know,
death by a thousand pinpricks or is it the sticker
(38:02):
shock you get when the ticket price goes up by
ten dollars. So I think that intelligent parks will find
ways to slip this money into different spaces, but the
best way to do it is to stop operating as
a bunch of departments occupying the same space and start
(38:24):
operating as a theme park that is looking at the
guest experience first.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Bye, Okay, Happy New Year. Everybody, have a great year,
and we will see you in twenty twenty six.
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