June 22, 2023 • 56 mins
Glenn opens up about his cancer story with Dr. Neil Gross, Head & Neck Surgeon with MD Anderson in Houston Texas
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(00:03):
Hi, I'm Mindy Sterns and I'mGlenn's Sterns, and this is Grit Happens.
Join us as we engage in candidconversations with some of the most successful
people in every field and from everywalk of life. All it's a common
thread of grit and a goal ofnot just surviving, but thriving. And
we hope that the show will helpyou feel informed, energized, and especially
(00:27):
inspired. So let's get started.This is great Happens. Ah, here
we are, It's gurd Happens.Another fun episode. Glad to be back
in the red seat. Were inthe red seat. Well, you know,
we're continuing our dialogue about your Imean, Grit Happens continues to thrive
as we do. We'd have reallygreat conversations with people in life who've gone
(00:51):
through grit, who experienced grit,who have used kind of you know,
has had a corner stone, agrit in their life to overcome and become
successful in many different ways, personally, professionally, and so on and so
forth. Am you wrote a bookand there's a chapter in here. There's
a chapter in here that highlights oneof our guests, our guests today and
we're going to talk a little bitabout your journey through cancer. That the
(01:12):
chapter is called you are not thatspecial. I like that. I'm gonna
use that tied. I'm gonna usethat chapter more. I'm gonna just I'm
just gonna say to you, yousay chapter seventeen. That's all. I'm
just gonna say it. You remindme every day I do You're not special.
But this gentleman who is here todaywas very very intimately in Glenn's mouth
(01:34):
and it's become a very dear friendand has become a friend so um.
Doctor Neil Gross a surgeon scientist ofheadnet cancers at MD Anderson. He's the
director of Clinical Research of headneck SurgeryAdam D. Anderson. A lot of
surgery related clinical trials. You're focusingon the HPV related cancers. You have
a very vast and incredible um resume. That is I duck. Yeah,
(01:57):
it's here. You are. Youdon't have a white labquote on right now,
we're here. I know, Iknow you're used to seeing me in
scrubs and a white lab coat.We have fatures of over the years.
It's wonderful. Hey, guess what, it's my birthday. It's really and
I can think of no better placeto spend it at this time. Happy
birthday, birthday doctor who wrote HappyBirthday to you? Are you twenty one,
(02:24):
because yeah, that'd be like twelve. Yeah, yeah, no,
I'm I'm a little older than that. But you know, wiser right,
always special that we have you all. Happy birthday, Happy, happy birthday.
So let's talk a little bit aboutum meeting Glenn Stearns. When you
(02:46):
met this man, obviously you're meetingpeople under not so ideal circumstances. Yeah,
absolutely, but a friendship. Soto delay the groundwork, right,
I mean, in in my life, I've had a lot of great ups
and I've had some downs, right, And you know at the time when
(03:07):
I met you, I was ina really good up. I mean I
was running to my I had aboat in Florida and I had a boat
in Costa Rica. I ran intoMD Anderson to say, look, can
you hurry up and get this littlechuck up done because I've got my friends
in Costa Rica and I've got myprivate jet waiting for me. So can
(03:30):
we cut this thing a little shortso I can jump and I literally go
down to Costa Rica. I haven'tgot all the news yet. And then
there's a phone call waiting for me. Do you mind, Um, we
saw a little something on the screenand we'd like to talk to you about
that. And I went, oh, no, I never underestimate cancer.
(03:53):
Gosh. And that was my introductionto you basically at that moment in time.
Yeah, you know what, goahead. No, No, I
was just gonna say that's you know, especially for a disease that has such
a high cur rate, right everybodycomes into it. I think. The
message to patients and rightfully so ishey, this is early stage disease,
(04:15):
a high rate of cure, thechance of it coming back is low,
and you know, so to beone of the folks who's unlucky enough where
it comes back is like is likea gut punch. Well, you know,
and I this is what I thought, And I thought, okay,
Well, first when I heard thenews that I had cancer, it was
(04:36):
like a fifty fifty shot because youknow, they're thinking cancer in the throat
and they told me that, andthen they said a little later, well,
if it's related to HPV, it'smore like an eighty five percent currate.
And I was like, can Ihave that one, you know,
like I want that right, andthey go, we don't know yet.
We got to do some tests andso but that time was hell right because
(05:00):
it was a coin toss, right, are you gonna live, You're gonna
die? And when I found outit was related to hpv UM, I
was grateful that, you know,I got the worst, the best of
the worst, the best of theworst. But then I thought, also
the fifteen percent, they must bethe people that don't listen to their doctor,
(05:20):
they don't do everything they're supposed todo. I am going to do
it all, and I did.I did their radiation, that cheme out
therapy. I did. He movedto Texas. Bricks in my neck.
That's called acupunct acupuncture. I prayedto Mecca. I did like Eastern Western,
(05:41):
I did Northern medicine, Southern medicine, everything you can think of.
And I knew i'd fallen at eightyfive percent. And then I didn't think
your diet changed at all. Thechicken wings are really and you didn't stop
drinking at all. That's not it, doctell and he didn't. He didn't
minimize the stress in his life atall. And we don't know I mean,
(06:03):
the truth is we don't know.I mean, generally, it's not
something you did or didn't do.Now, smoking is bad, alcohol is
not helpful. Stress, right isnot good for anybody. But we don't
know, is the truth. Weand we'll never be able to know.
In your case, what you knowwhy it came back. But but you
(06:25):
know, I don't think it's fairto blame patience right when it comes back.
There's something with the tumor, there'ssomething with the biology that for whatever
reason, you know, it's moreaggressive. Doctor. Can I ask you
a question, because I just hadan article sent to me yesterday that HBV
related cancers are like epidemic before theyare on the rise more than ever.
(06:48):
Can you run some of the statsjust for people who maybe I mean,
there's a lot of people out there, a lot of men going, WHOA
did I am? I will Iyou know? Yeah, no, no,
it's good now, not a littlebit sure. Thanks for you know,
thanks for having me right, Thanksfor my patient and behaving most of
the most of the time. We'lltalk about that in a minute. No,
(07:09):
I mean, and and I guessmy my only wishes that we had
met sooner, right, because um, you know, so much has changed
and I mean I didn't know youwhen the initial treatment decisions were made,
and you know, the the fightthat you went through initially. Um but
you know HPV is an epidemic ituh now and it's it's uh so.
(07:32):
HPV associated cancers account for five percentof all cancers worldwide. So it's not
you know that cervical cancer, that'soral, pharyngeal cancer, throw cancer,
that's anal cancer, pano cancer,and so it's a huge it's a huge
number if you if you just lookacross the world. And that's why it's
(07:53):
miraculous, right that we have avaccine that is preventative. If if if
you would ask people twenty years ago, thirty years ago, hey god,
if we could only have a vaccinethat could prevent percent of cancers in the
whole world, who who would notdo that? Who would not be behind
that? And yet it still hasyou know, I think it's wrapped up
(08:15):
in a lot of stigma, right, So we still don't have the uptake
that we want for this, butbut it is improving and we're getting there.
It's just slow and it's that's whyI think getting you know, including
this in the book and in yourstory, Glan and just talking about it
(08:37):
publicly is valuable. So I readthat there that eighty five percent of Americans
walking around probably have the hpv IRUs, Like if you've had more than one
partner you've got you probably have it. Is that the statistics that correct to
say, I would say it's higher. So, first of all, there's
over one hundred and fifty different subtypesof HPV. There's many, many different
(09:00):
strains of the virus. And ifyou walk around town and this is any
town in the US, and youswap people's mouths, you'll find active oral
HPV and five to eight percent.So at any given time, you know
a certain percentage of folks will havesome strain of TV in their mouth.
(09:20):
And so that's why the vaccines recommendedbefore puberty, because once people start kissing,
you know, real kissing or havingsex, then then they're swapping virus
and that and it's and so everybodyis exposed. I mean, it's it's
it's ubiquitous. And I think ofit kind of like you know how people
(09:41):
think about chicken pox and shingles.So it used to be everybody got chicken
pox. I mean, now there'sa vaccine to prevent it. But you
know, back in the day,everybody got chicken pox and only a certain
percentage will wind up getting shingles,which is a reactivation the virus um.
We don't know why some do,some don't, but it's similar with HPV.
(10:05):
It's a virus um. It's almosteverybody's exposed, and for some reason
the virus can um can integrate intothe DNA of some patients and then develop
into a cancer decades later, andwe just don't know exactly why. At
least we treat it differently. Mymom would throw me and kids in a
(10:28):
room with chicken pox and say goget it, get it over with,
right. We don't always go swapspit with everybody in the room and everybody
spread it around and then you're whatever. At least we're trying. Is there
is for those for I mean whatI've what I'm hearing, just in my
unofficial observation, it seems like there'smore and more men that are getting these
(10:52):
throat cancers, and like for women, we have the peraps mere, we
have our annuals. There's that's whatour screening is for. Is cervical related
be cancers. What can men do, because I mean I've I've said to
a lot of men, Hey,go in for an upper throat scan.
Go for a throat scope and anupper gi I won't hurt. You might
as well go look for your regularities. If you're having a chronic store throat,
(11:15):
if you're having horse you know,if you're having swelling in olymphnos.
It doesn't hurt to go get screened. Right. Can you catch it pretty
early? Yeah, I mean earlydetection is the key to any cancer,
and certainly this is the case aswell. I mean, the most common
presenting sign is a lump in theneck. Somebody is shaping, you know,
a guy is shaving and they're like, oh, hey, I feel
something in my neck. And then, you know, they eventually get a
(11:37):
biopsy and it shows cancer. Andit turns out that cancer started in the
tonsil tissue somewhere, either the tonsiltissue on the back of the tongue or
the tonsil tissue that you think ofin the tonsils, because this virus has
a predilection for that tissue, whichis very similar to cervical tissue. Actually,
that's why the virus. You know, there's some connection. Now why
(12:01):
it is true. So HPV associatedthroat cancer is in the top ten list
of cancers for men in the USevery year right now, and it's not
it's not yet in the top tenfor women. So we see it more
frequently in man, and it probablyhas more to do with just, uh,
you know, historically men are morelikely to take on riskier behaviors,
(12:26):
right, So man are more likelyto take on like to speed and more
likely to skydive, and more likelyto do everything risky and go down the
girl. Gosh, did you haveor maybe or maybe just have more sexual
partners? Right, yes, moremore written like just it's just I probably
(12:46):
a numbers game. Um, that'smy that's my impression with it. But
Glenn is a hoe. We justnow we're establishing that Glenn has been a
hoe. Okay, So Glenn isa risk taker. I think that's that's
okay. I have a lot offans that look up to me out there
and think I'm not you're not takingYes, there we go. I like
(13:11):
that. The doctors said that.I like that. I think that's so.
Is there something so okay? Sayyou got a lump in your neck,
don't be afraid, right, yougo in you get it screen,
Like is there something to let peopleknow, like, Okay, you got
don't freak out, You're not goingto die. Just go in and get
it check Don't let that lump sitthere and grow. Catch it early.
Right, it's a pretty highly curablethat you said, yeah, absolutely,
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I mean if something's not right,it's wrong and get it checked out.
Women are better at this than men, that's another issue. And women will
go and get stuff checked out.Men are are slower to do it.
And there's there's actually data that showsthat men who are married live longer than
men who are single single wife's tellingthem what to go down because the wife
is like, hey, you needto go get that checked out. That
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thing growing off the side of yourhead is not normal. Had a lump
on their neck, and they weredoing a show that we're um realite of
someone. We knew that a storywhere someone saw something contacted him and said,
you need to go get that checkedout, like you've got a swelling.
And it turned out to be everytime now that I see anybody all
I got swollen gland, I'm like, yeah, I will say it's it
(14:20):
is a little awkward, you know, as a physician. If I see
a stranger, I'm in an airportand I see a stranger with a lump
on the neck or something that doesn'tlook right, you know, that can
be that can be awkward and howto I'm not shy anymore? Is that
if you check that out, youknow, I mean, just tell people
(14:41):
just yeah, yeah, I meanI think it's the right thing. Okay.
Do you think there's any association becauseit's on such a rise now.
It's not that we're more sexually active. I mean people have always been sexually
active, right, But so doyou think there has anything to do with
the positioning of the phone next tothe next people have been talking on the
I mean, if you think aboutthe Wall Street brick phone, which had
no protection from people all those yearsago, you know, and you got
(15:03):
this big old brick and now thesemen are growing and maturing into their fifties
and sixties, and now they're gettingthese neck and head cancers. I mean,
we haven't had very safe phones forthe last thirty years or twenty however
long we've been around. You thinkthere's anything any merits to that active anything?
So No, I don't think so. I mean, I think it
does have to do with you know, the sixties and seventies there was you
(15:24):
know, free love, right,think there was a change in the culture.
Uh, And I think I thinkyou mix this with more more you
know, swapping saliva, more intimateencounters, more more sexual behaviors, then
I think that's explained. That explainswhy there's just more HPV in the circulation
(15:46):
essentially, and then and then whoever, you know, more active right earlier,
there has nothing to do with anythingother than um, since you were
kind of shaming me on my behavior. Um, well, I do think
that's a problem, you know,I mean, so much of this is
(16:06):
the stigma around Oh this is sexuallytransmitted, this is blah blah blah.
And I really want to dissuade folksfrom thinking that because it's everybody's exposed,
everybody, and that's why vaccine isso valuable. Anybody thinks some one that's
not like sexually active, you're justkissing them. Yeah, what I have
heard a lot and I anyway,what I've heard about some people is you're
(16:33):
you know, these negative people,these people that are so you know,
just it's just very just angry people. Um, that's how cancer happens when
you're a negative person, you know, is that true? Do you think
there's any merit to how you holdyourself as well? Your body's going to
react not be like I don't know. I don't know. I mean,
(16:53):
I don't I think it gets backto like, I can't imagine it helps.
And I will say that people whoare positive, people who are fighters
like you, Glan, do better. I mean for sure when once they're
diagnosed. Right, So, Idon't know that it makes a difference in
who gets cancer as much as ifyou do get cancer, your chance of
(17:15):
making it out the other end,attitude makes a huge difference in that.
I think that there's a lot ofmerit to that. So you let me.
I'm going to ask you about whenyou first got diagnosed, like when
someone does first get Glenn had quitean experience when he first What would it
What would be your suggestion as aprofessional, how if someone does get that
cancer diagnosis, what do they dowith it? Or how how should they
what's next? Like mentally, whatdo you do? Yeah, I mean
(17:38):
it's important to educate yourself around aroundthis. And you know, Glenn,
I think you this is the secretto your success. It sounds like from
what I know that you are willingto to seek help from people who know
know the issue right, and youyou incorporated that you're in your business world
(18:00):
and you just say, oh,Okay, this person is smart. They
know I'm gonna I'm gonna take theiradvice and do it and um and you
educate yourself through that person. Andit's different for every person, but I
think educating patients need to be It'shelpful for them to be educated, but
not so much to the point thatthey're kind of trying to dictate their own
care and not doctor Google. Imean, you're going to die where you're
(18:26):
going with this, I think DUC. I mean, I know some really
smart people. They're so smart thati'd call them dumb, okay, and
getting their own way, Yeah,because I've seen some people that have said
I'm going to do all the research. I know two people that have died
from doing the research so long thatthey ended up the cancer kept growing in
(18:48):
them and then they didn't get itcut, you know, caught early enough.
When they had it, they knewabout it, but they took a
year they take figure it out isolatedjust Eastern medicine and not you said,
I even would look at um,look at jobs, Steve Jobs. Right,
there's an example somebody. Yeah,No, absolutely, I mean I
(19:10):
think, Um, I mean there'sa certain amount of denial. And I
think people who are used to successbeing successful have a hard time, um
being told what you know. Theyconfine they have to do something, they
have they this has to become thepriority. And and there's a lot there's
some folks, you know, Ithink folks who are more successful tend to
(19:33):
try to negotiate more. You know, they're kind of like, well,
I mean do I really need todo? I really think they know better.
But there I think there's different personalitiesin in people that are successful.
And like I give you an exampleto your point. Take Steve Jobs.
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I'm going to figure it out myown way and I'm going to go with
this Eastern medicine and I'm going tolive a healthy life instead of the odds.
Like I've always been really simple.If someone else has figured it out,
why do I want to do allthe hard work? And when when
we went on our first vacation,I just googled where did all the richest,
(20:15):
most successful people go? Because someoneelse did all the hard work for
them to figure out that that isthe most exclusive, cool place to go.
When it came to medicine, whereis the best cancer hospital in the
world. This is your fault doctor, why I got there? Oh man,
(20:37):
sorry, but so why what isthe best hospital? And then what
were the odds for the treatment?Right? So we went through and there
was the gold standard at the time. And the irony of my um of
your original diagnosis. Yeah, theirony of that was that I had on
(21:00):
to GW Hospital and they said they'redoing a new program where they would do
chemo therapy and then they would doa surgical resection, a robotic surgical resection
of and that's all they did.And they said they success rate. Sign
me up. I said, howmany people you had so far? We've
(21:22):
got like twenty people. I wenttwenty. That's it. You know,
for a couple of years, thatmakes me nervous. To MD Anderson,
We've had thousands and thousands of peopleand we do it the old school way
and it's eighty five percent successful onthousands of people. Well, I just
said that that those odds work forme, even though I kind of fell
(21:45):
into the other category. But yeah, still, you know, it just
seems. But to go off onyour own and try to you know,
think you're gonna do it because nowyou're gonna change your diet and now you're
gonna pray to Mecca to I'd rathergo with the odds, you know.
Yeah, I mean there's a sweetspot. Yeah. Ultimately, you have
(22:07):
to be comfortable with the decision.It's your life and you have to be
comfortable with the folks who are treatingyou. And many patients have they don't
have the luxury of going wherever theywant, right, They kind of end
up going what's what is available tothem. And but but but you know
a lot of folks have choice andcan figure that out in it it you
(22:29):
know, who's patients to anybody tolook in at their options. And I
mean, you did the right thing. You had a couple of options.
You were able to kind of weighit and balance and make that decision.
Now, different patients might have differentchoices, but you made the best decision
for you at the time, Andthat's that's the key, is helping patients
make the best decisions. The ironyagain of time. Right now that we're
(22:52):
ten years past that, it lookslike the new standard is to do immunotherapy
and dissection right or and so Ikind of they were on the front end
of that, and now they've changedthe way some of those are cared for.
I guess depends on each case.But yeah, it's slow. It's
(23:15):
slow to change, you know,these old patterns in medicine because people are
risk averse. They don't want todisrupt something that especially something that seems to
work for most people. But youknow, it's been a passion of mine
is to be disruptive. I thinkthat's where I do see a lot of
um, you know, I II feel I feel a connection with you,
(23:38):
Glenn that I don't feel with alot of other patients, partly because
I have that that and also partlybecause of my own upbringing and challenges you
know, growing up. Um,you know, I grit is I think
a big part of who I amas well, and um, and so
(23:59):
that that has been a strong connection. I feel, Well, we didn't
we didn't, you know, wekind of jumped right into this and we
didn't go through our relationship. Andyou know, I have a definite relationship
with you than anybody, you know. I absolutely respect you and appreciate what
you did for me, you changedhis life in many ways, yes,
(24:22):
good and bad, you know.And I've had that conversation like aren't you
mad at him? He cut offyour apple? Glattis you can never eat
again. I said that you couldlook at it that way, or you
could look at it like you savedmy life, right, like you're gonna
put your energy where you're gonna putit, you know. And the fact
is, from what I understand becauseI was asleep, you went back and
(24:45):
forth for like hours, not youknow, just cutting a tiny little piece
off, not trying to get there. And that's what Tim Warren had told
us that, you know, thephotographer, the cameraman who was there filming
at all, he talked about howyou painstakenly to just such a tiny section
and tried so hard to get takeas little as you could. And then
(25:06):
but so I look at it like, you know, hey, you did
what you could do, and I'ma very appreciative of it. And and
I think, um, we goback to the purpose of that this podcast
has been about. It's about mindset, really, right. You got grit,
you got problems in life, yougot things out, How are you
going to handle them? What areyou gonna do about it. And in
this case, you know, I'mvery appreciative of our relationship. And there's
(25:30):
some people that might flip it onyou, right and go your bestard this
you do, You didn't You dideverything in your power, and I'm very
very grateful for everything you did.And so i'm you know, I respect
how you operate and and we've gottento know each other deeper than probably most
patience. And let's talk a littlebit about that, because you know,
(25:51):
it takes a mindset to go throughbattle, deal, heal, and conquer
and go up against cancer. Whatkind of like talk about Glenn's mindset and
how you think others can learn fromthat mindset with what you've seen in the
patients you've treated and how he isin his own way. Yeah, So
you know, patients come in everydifferent permutation, every different variety. Right.
(26:15):
Many patients come in just spooted,just freaked out, and and and
that's where they can be so scaredthat sometimes they get into trouble and they
just kind of accept the most aggressivething, or they just kind of they're
making decisions entirely out of fear.And so those patients you kind of have
to walk them back, calm themdown, you know, help them reorient.
(26:38):
And some patients come in, youknow, in Glen's case when we
met, he'd been treated before,was doing great for like four years out
you know, this was this wascoming in for a high five. And
then I can't remember, I don'tknow who you saw. But then as
is doctor Webber, my former boss, and then he he called me and
(27:00):
said, hey, I got Igot this guy and you know, he's
got a jet to catch or something. You know, I can't know what
it was. And uh, youknow, can you see him? And
so, you know, meeting Glenn, it was it was different. I
mean, he's you know, Glenn'slike, hey, I can beat this,
I can do whatever. When whencan we get it done? Because
I got to get on with this, this and this, and I mean
(27:22):
he's trying to fit cancer and itwas schedule. Yeah, it was.
It was so I think it wassuch a it was such a shock that
you were by yourself, Glenn.I mean, Mindy wasn't there. I
think you we called, we phonedyou in right to have the discussion and
and and I know I know whatyou what was coming for you, but
to get you to that point ofunderstanding, you know, of of just
(27:48):
understanding all that was. You know, you just can't do that and in
fifteen minutes or thirty minutes or whateverit was, it was going to be
an iter process. Well, whensomeone told me that, you know,
you're one of the best in theworld with this um robotic, well not.
It was a UM like a laser. And so when I thought of
as a laser in my mind,I thought of people that go get a
(28:11):
tattoo removed, right like you justgo just over the top of the skin
and it kills that level layer ofskin and you might just a few more.
So I thought I was going inwhere you would just just and burn
the skin right there and then we'redone. And that's why I thought I
could go back to do this televisionshow is going to do like four days
(28:33):
later, right like I didn't knowit was a robotic surgical scalpel, right
like I had no clue, youknow, I thought i'd be out in
a day where I was in thehospital like ten days. I didn't even
remember it. It was a blurof like morphine, you know, and
you know we attitude is everything,don't you don't you think a lot of
(28:55):
attitude is huge. Attitude is huge. Um. I mean you you know,
you as unlucky as you were,you were also in a favorable category
because it was caught small. Imean there was two patients that came through
this week who've had recurrencies that werecaught more advanced, and the only surgery
if we're going to if that personhave surgery. Two patients this week would
(29:19):
have required removing the entire tongue inthe entire voice box, could never talk,
could never eat again. I mean, that's and the only option for
these patients. It's awful. Theonly option is it is an experimental chemotherapy
immunotherapy, which is not likely towork. So you know the fact that
(29:41):
it was caught early, we're ableto put you on a clinical trial.
We're able to kind of thread theneedle and removing it, but without removing
too much. Man, I feltlucky about it, as bad as I
feel about the situation that you're inand just the you know, it's just
the impact on your life and andand anybody going through cancer once, but
(30:06):
but more than once, it's it'sit's yeah, I've learned to cook,
so it's okay. This is sofunny doctor Gruss because he now watches beat
Bobby Flay, the Best Table,Open Table, Food Wars, whatever,
and he's like pulling up these recipes. He's making dinner for the family.
He doesn't get to eat any ofit. I just got four of the
(30:27):
best knives I got him in themail yesterday in your cloth, Like,
what is this fantastic? I meanlike I need to be a part of
it. Right. If I can'teat with everybody, at least I could
cook the food or I just wantI don't want to be pour me sitting,
you know, in a chair everybodyelse is at dinner. I mean
(30:48):
it doesn't bother me when people eat. I don't care. His new fetish
is to feed me. Stay outof that. I like to know.
I go the rest run. ButI want to do something. He's like,
no, let me, I'll orderfor you. I'll cut it,
I'll put it in your psychist whohits his new thing. I gotta do
something. I don't want to justsit there. I mean that's about taking
(31:11):
something that such it could be sucha down. I mean he has a
choice, And don't you agree thatevery patient has a choice for how they
deal with what's happening because you can'tdo much about it in the moment.
It's you've got to do something,and you have a choice for how you're
going to attack it. Absolutely absolutely, I mean, I mean, and
the folks who are have have thatintensity, and it's and it's not always
(31:36):
easy to tell who has that untilthey're going through. But but yeah,
the folks that have that just theycome out the other end just different,
right, and they're they're survivors.They're inherently survivors. And that's um,
that's that help. You've given meten years of life. I'm the only
(31:56):
human being that cancers giving me tenyears because I don't pizza up, French
fridge, chicken wings, alcohol,don't drink and I have a perfect diet
right now. It's very regulated andwonderful. So I'm gonna live longer than
I would have lived. So Ilook at this as a positive experience in
my life. Well, a littlebit twist. He's a little twisted too,
(32:17):
because you gotta tell you, gottatell her the listeners what he wanted
you to do. Every time hecomes down there, like he's like,
yeah, I will say, you'rethe only patient that I have who has
made this request to me, andit's it's basically every time you come in
and that request is doc one ofthese times when you come in, can
(32:38):
you just have a long face anda pause and then tell me it's come
back? And my answer is what? Right? My answer is, I
can't do that. You come in, You've tried, though, you say,
you walk in. I can't doit. I can't do it.
You tried, like you, hey, you know what try? What's the
difference and if it's real or itisn't real for me? Because if it
(33:01):
did come back and he's and you'relike, I know, but no,
it really did, like you'd belike, wait, that'd be awkward.
It would be awkward unless I toldyou it's okay, because you know what,
your words and real life aren't goingto change what's really where I am,
right, I mean, I'm ifyou told me it in real life.
(33:23):
We caught it early. I'm excitedthat we caught it early. If
I get through and I don't haveit, I can wait another six months,
right, So, no matter what, it's going to be a positive
answer, right because if I catchit early, I'm ready to fight it
again. No, but though,but We did have one doctor say if
(33:44):
it comes back a third time,take it all out, take it out,
don't even be I mean, we'vegot a doctor came in and sat
down with him. Yeah, verylike graphic about his passion. If it
came back a third time, donot mess around, take it all,
take it your vocal, your tongue. I'm like, that's kind of extreme.
Do you feel that way? Doyou have that mindset? Well?
(34:07):
I mean I think, um,that's such a I mean that situation.
Right. You can't even nobody canknow what the journey is for for a
cancer patient or what it was liketo be in that chair for Glenn at
either of these time points. Andthat's another unique time point that it's hard.
You know, it's not at allwhat I think or what I mean
(34:29):
to try to give the best advice, but it's really what it's got to
be driven by patients. It's sucha personal decision something like that, Right,
So you know what Glenn, Glenby the way, I want I
want to go backwards for a second. I'm sorry, you can talk that,
Okay, I'm talking about this.I don't want to make fun of
cancer for other people who are sufferingand who've had traumatic issues. It's their
(34:51):
journeying and it's horrible and people dieand we're all gonna die in my own
personal journey, I don't mind theband turn the fun and I've allowed you
to walk in the room, closethe door, and throw a joke or
two. But that's definitely, fornine percent, probably not the right thing
to do, right, And otherpeople might get mad at me. You're
(35:13):
making light of cancer. No,I've got the cancer. I'm not.
I'm not making light of other people'scancer. I'm making the fact that we're
all going to get something. Hey, I want to live a positive life.
If I am on my deathbed,I don't mind my friends coming up
and kicking me. Why are youdying on me right now? Ory Like,
I don't why. I don't wantpeople with a sad face. Oh
(35:35):
you're dying. We're all gonna die, you know. So one last thing
on this Sorry, I walked intothe room. I think I said this
for when I first had cancer,and there was about two hundred people that
I knew in this room. Theywere all friends of ours from an event,
and it was when we first foundout, so everyone knew I had
it and when I walked in,Boy, could you see everyone? No
(35:59):
one knew it to do. Andthe room kind of went like weird,
and people look down and people lookedaway, and I was noticing this everywhere
and I was laughing inside in aweird way, like people don't know how
to handle this. Some people cameup, looked at me, gave me
a hug, you know, whichis nice, right. Other people looked
(36:20):
away because they just wanted to avoidme. Two guys walked up to me.
One guy goes up to me andhe goes, thanks, now I
can't tell my favorite cancer jokes.Appreciate it, walks away right like I
like that, get a little jokelike you bump blame me. And the
other guy goes, hey, realsorry about your cancer. I know it
sucks. Look, I'm sure you'retired. Can I tell you? I
can I ask you about something elseinstead of the stupid cancer. I like
(36:43):
that too, right, So everybodydeals with differently, and you know,
but for me, I you know, I don't want people feeling sorry for
me. We're all gonna go forsomething and you might as well laugh and
joke and you know, and that'sjust my way anyway. I just well,
I was gonna say, you know, you know, one of the
(37:05):
most terrifying things that he went through. I don't want to go back too
much, but I think this isinteresting to point out, is that,
uh, and they talked about itin the book, is when he was
going through you weren't part of thisprocess before, when he went through the
first time, when he went throughthe radiation and he had to have the
mesh place on his face, ifyou had a lot of patients you've talked
to during that process, because thatstressed him out, and that was terrifying
(37:30):
and confining, and I think alot of patients have to go through that
when they put that liquid mesh onand they staple it to the table,
and that was a real how dohow do people? What do you tell
people? How do you guide people? It's hard, I mean going through
that initial treatment is terrifying for everypatient going through what you went through initially
(37:52):
planned. And you know that's whya big part of my you know,
what I do clinical trials and researchis to find better options for future patients,
right because we know what we dois destructive and it is hard on
it's terrifying, and yeah, themask for radiation. Headneck radiation is unbelievable.
(38:15):
I mean, if it's like outof a movie, they and Glenn
can describe it better than I do. But yeah, book, it's very
graphic, and it's every day,five days a week for you know,
thirty thirty five sessions and so people, I mean people have true PTSD sometimes
from that, and they have Thereare even ceremonies where people have like burn
(38:38):
their mask or they you know,they turn it in an art and things
like this that it's it's a bigdeal and you know, just and head
and neck cancer in general, throatcancer is so central, right, I
mean, it's like the kitchen ofyour body. It's where you eat,
where you talk, it's where youbreathe. This is where people see you
(39:00):
kiss, where you're intimate. Wereyou know though? Yes I didn't again
maybe because I don't overprocess things toomuch. I didn't know what I was
getting myself into, right, LikeI didn't when we had the surgery.
I thought you were going to burnit like a little you know, tattoo.
Yeah, And I've always said thatignorance is bliss, and I'm I'm
(39:22):
happy I don't dig too deep sometimes, but when um. I walked into
that room. They said, okay, we're gonna get you ready for you
know, to be able to goand do your your radiation. I didn't
know what they were doing. Ididn't understand. They put this warm mask
and it felt this It was likea net netting and it felt really nice
(39:45):
and warm. I liked it,like whoa. And they were massaging my
face with it, but they werejust making it really firm around my face
and I was biting inside. Themask is a bit so I was biting
this thing or then they put themask and it's just soft netting, and
then they went click click click clickall around my head. Right, I'm
(40:09):
like, okay, what is thatnow? It starts to all of a
sudden going and all of a sudden, what's going on? But I can't
talk because I got to bite bymound and all of a sudden it's getting
tight. My lashes up, oneeyes up, mun's down and all of
a sudden, what I want tosay, I'm I'm uncomfortable. I don't
(40:31):
like but I couldn't size went withmy arms like because I couldn't move.
I was stuck, and all ofa sudden my heart started pounding like and
I'm not I didn't think I wasclusterphobic, but it also bound bound pound,
and all of a sudden, I'mgoing and these ladies come over.
They're like petting me, or you'regonna be okay? Do you want us
(40:53):
to stop? You're okay? Andthen I'm thinking I'm gonna dive a heart
attack. I'm gonna explode owed myheart because I'm freaking out too much.
And then that made me freak outeven more. And then I just I
closed my eyes. I say that, but it wouldn't close because it was
stuck in the mesh, and Ijust started to try to think about it.
(41:15):
I was dancing with my daughter inthis event that a couple of nights
earlier, and I'm just trying toI want to dance with my daughter again,
dance with my daughter again, controlto try to get my heart slow
down. You know, we aren'tyou supposed to take a value before that?
No, no, those when theyput it back on you to do
(41:35):
that actual treatment. The next time, they said, look, we give
you this value, take it anhour before you'll calm down. I promise
you I will. So it wasthe next day, Hey, we have
a appointment set up. I gofor ten. Well, we have one
at nine right now, if you'dlike to go because it's open. I
said, great, So we're racingthere. We had fifteen minutes to get
(41:57):
there. I walk in the door. I go, let me take my
value. My value. So Itook it going down the stairs, right,
so I don't know that it evenswallowed it. Yeah, because I
didn't have any water. I justpopped the pill with no I walk in
and go Table three. I setand I was like, oh my god,
it's starting again and I'm laying themy valume is stuck in my throat.
(42:22):
Oh my god. Anyway, thisis a horse story. Well from
then on I didn't take a valuebecause I was like, ah, get
through it. Yeah, oh that'sthe story. What what is your hope
for the future for cancers? Likewhat is you? What are you?
What is your optimistic viewpoint on thefuture. And we already talked about the
(42:45):
vaccine, right, so prevention isso key and this is one disease that
is preventable with the vaccine. Sothat's a big part of the future for
sure. And then we also talkedabout early detection. You know, I
mean most patients with this cancer,they come in with a lymph node metastas
it's already spread to a lymph node. That's later than we want because it
(43:07):
is there an earlier detection than thelymph node. Can you see it visually
from a scope? Are you ableto detect some so dentist you know,
I know, Mandy, your brother. The dental community is actually the front
lines of detection from many of thesepatients. They have to look a little
further back at the fossils. ButI've had patients who've who've been referred,
(43:32):
you know, from from it beingfound by a dentist. But you know,
we still need earlier detection techniques,and I think in the future we
will have basically the equivalent of aliquid biopsy, so a blood test,
a blood test that can check forcirculating tumor DNA. I mean, it's
(43:53):
already available, but we still are. It's still being studied and researched,
and it's not ready for prime time. It's not ready for um, you
know, to be used to screenpatients that kind of thing. But in
the future will have either an oralswab or a blood test or some combination
like this that can help us detectthis earlier. You know what, I
(44:14):
just went to the doctor to getSCANN. I'm like, look, if
he has it, I probably haveit. And I get, you know,
sore throat and I'm like, Iwant to do a sculculated an upper
GI scope of me about a weekago, two weeks ago, and the
doctor said, this company does thisblood test detect from markers for HBV possible
related you know, like if youhave the like the predisposition to have it.
Like so I just had a bloodthat came to my office and got
(44:36):
blood last week. So it's likethis new thing. I didn't it's it's
what there must be they're testing itout or something. So yeah, it's
it's it's and it's just been overthe last few years that we and not
even patients where we know they havecancer and we checked the test sometimes it
doesn't work right. So it's notand it's especially infancy struggling in patients were
(45:00):
have minimal disease, Like it maynot have picked up Blend's recurrence because it
was caught or you know, itwas seen on imaging, but it was
still small. So there, it'sstill got a long way to go,
but just like with cell phones andall technologies, they're getting better and better,
and so it's clear to see thatthat's the future. And our treatments
are also going to get smarter andbetter and more refined. I mean the
(45:22):
robot that I used in your surgery, Glenn. We have a new model.
We have a new model one.Now there's new combinations of immunotherapy and
chemotherapy and radio. Everything's improving.It's just not fast enough. So let's
okay, we ones on the wayto you. You got your sign book
(45:45):
coming. But integrity is the titlewith grit in nice bold because life is
you know, there's grit in themiddle of life, and there's grit in
the middle of integrity. What doesit mean to you if you if you
were to summarize the actual word,notion concept of integrity, what what sinks
in with you? Yeah? Ithink it's uh. I mean, I
(46:07):
just love I love the word.I love how you've framed it. You
know, grit happens um. Integrityis is very much doing what you say
right, where your actions follow yourwords and as simple as simple as that,
I mean, And it's easy forfolks to say one thing and act
(46:30):
a different way. They can saythey love their family and then never see
them. That is not integrity.Yeah, um, you know. Um,
So to me, that's that's whatit's all about. And I'm not
saying that's easy. I think everyonestruggles with that because there can be a
disconnect and they can have they canbe what they aspire. They really want
(46:52):
to be this way, but theiractions are this way. But aligning your
your intentions and your actions, Um, to me, that's what it is.
I've heard that once. It said, ask yourself what, write down
what your top priorities are. Anda lot of people with family, but
then where's most of your time actuallyspent? Like you really need to look
(47:13):
at those two are aligned? Doctor, growth, You have to this one
little more comment. There's a coupleof voices in your head, right,
you gotta have the one that knowswhat's the right thing to do it it
has to be louder than the onethat wants something. And you know,
it's very simple too to always makean excuse for why it's okay to lean
(47:34):
with the guy that wants something morethan the guy that knows what's the right
thing to do or go or whateverinside your head. So but go that
to your teenagers, right, yeah, exactly. The moral compass is huge.
I mean, and you know,I mean getting back, I know
we have kids similar age, right, So, and how do you and
I think we've even talked about thisclaim before, I mean, how do
(47:57):
you how do you still this inyour kids? Right? Because you grew
up and I grew up in insituations where that were different. I mean,
my kids have everything they need.Your kids have everything they need because
you can provide it, you can. And our yeah, and our kids
have also almost everything they want,right, And so how do you how
(48:22):
do you instill hunger? How doyou instill this sort of drive in that
situation? And I think it's it'sit's it's by example and um and like
you said, by living with integrityso that they see it and follow that,
yeah, and allowing adversity to intheir lives. I just want to
touch on that you had mentioned itearlier. You had a lot of grit
(48:44):
growing up yourself. I know we'reshort on time and we're wrapping up here,
but I mean to get to theposition you are took a lot of
work, a lot of time,study, years, effort, energy,
grit, adversity, Well, you'reat the topier game. You are the
game that you sound like you didn'tyou started pretty low. It sounds like
you had some adversity in your youth. Is that what you alluded to?
(49:06):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean Igrew up, Um, you know,
I grew up poor, moved arounda lot, I went to I went
to at least ten different schools betweenfirst grade and twelfth grade. Moved a
lot and had to adapt and makenew friends. You can remember, you
know, living out of a carat one point growing up. So just
(49:28):
just a challenge, right And um, but but you know those things I
I they're a gift. And Iknow I've heard didn't say something similar,
right, I mean, the thethe challenges that people have are a gift
because it because you have to sinkor swim, and the and and the
(49:50):
people who swim, they succeed.And you see it in every profession and
across the board. Uh, it'sa similar story. And that again,
that's what resonates with me in somebodylike glad and um, you know this,
this this struggle to success right now, That's that's what I meant when
I said you're at the top ofyour game, because I don't think people
(50:14):
get there by accident. I don'tthink it's it happens when life is just
perfect. I think it happens whenwe have adversity in our lives, you
know. And that's what I meantby that, I didn't get to finish
that sentence, which you have hada lot of struggle, pain and adversity
and you've got to overcome it andget to the top. And that's where
(50:36):
I see so many people have hadsomething to prove, including me. You.
Um, you know, it's justI think it should be looked at
as a gift too, right,because it's not how we start, but
where we finish. And so youknow, we can use that as the
fuel to get us become successful orto work harder or whatever it is you
(51:00):
know in life, Substa. That'swhat's so that's what's so wonderful about you
both telling your story, right,um, because people can look and you
say, oh, yeah, thisguy's got it all, he's you know,
he's wealthy, he's okay, lookingnods looking one. I'm just people
(51:24):
can people can can look at youand just see this guy's had it easy.
It's you know, um. Butbut to tell your story and people
to understand where things come from andwho you are and how you've gotten there
is really valuable. It's it's it'sit's important to tell your story. And
I'm glad. I'm just glad tobe a part of that. Well,
(51:45):
thank you and and and and directthis with the fact that I have had
over a hundred people that I've beenable to refer to M D Anderson,
and I am very appreciative of beinga bridge. Well I'm a board member,
(52:06):
but I'm very pretty appreciative of beingthe bridge to get them to a
very wonderful hospital. And that's becauseby you know, some people don't want
to expose their flaws at all,and that's including cancer. A lot of
people come to me, don't tellanyone. I can't have anyone knowing.
Okay, that's your life, that'sokay, but can you help me Being
(52:28):
open and being vulnerable and showing yourum flaws, I think to me,
it's been a wonderful way to bereal and get people to go man,
I can relate. And so Ilove that because I'm more of a of
a open book, well an openbook, but yeah, I'm very interested
(52:50):
in getting deep with people and I'mnot a very good shallow person, uh,
you know, dealing with other peopleon a shallow level. And so
I really am enjoy being able totell the story. And I actually I
gave many a lot of that creditbecause the cancer story. I was like,
look, I'm all for it.I don't care. You can tell
people whatever I'm not, you know, I open up about it. But
(53:14):
she wanted to go on like carryingbridge and I was like, to me,
that reminds me of like where peoplego to die. And I was
wrong because I know I don't knowa lot more people, but back then
I thought that's what it was.So she said, well, I'm gonna
go on Facebook and I'm gonna geta group and invite everybody, and I'm
gonna tell every week what's going onin your life? Except fine, do
it. And she did and itwas so open. So many people saw
(53:37):
that like a living eulogy in away. You know, it's weird,
like when you tell this story,it's amazing, like Glen talked about the
people in the room. Some people, it's it's an opportunity for people to
really kind of life is short,tell people how you feel. They got
a lot of beautiful. I didhave my funeral to talk about. It
made me happy, you know,to hear was grateful. That's an argument
(54:00):
for being vulnerable and being open.So but again, other people don't.
Maybe some people aren't that way.Everybody's different. That's okay, it's your
own journey. But um, butby by being open, I was able
to refer a lot of people,a lot of people's every So thank you.
You guys are doing that. Yes, we appreciate everything. Amaze in
(54:22):
the world. Doctor, You're wonderful. Oh, by the way, Glenn,
now iss doctor, I forget heis how a doctor? He's got
doctorate at Gannon University and doctorate inhumanities. No, I mean human letters,
human letters? When the heck ishuman letters? I don't know.
He's so dyslexic he doesn't know whatthey are. You tell me, doctor
(54:42):
exactly. So I want you guysto do the doctor. Doctor, do
it, doctor, doctor, doctor, my favorite doctor and doctor. All
right, doctor doctor, gross,thank you. We miss you. I
guess we'll see you in six monthsor so. You know, I've even
said to him, I'm like,Glen, there's this you could do screening
right here. You don't have tofly it all the way to Houston and
(55:05):
fly down and go and stay ina hotel. And he's like, I
want to see doctor Gross. Ienjoy. I enjoy my rhetoric, my
rapport. I want to go whereI started, and I want to remain
connected. So I know we're leaving, but I have to say one more
thing. Remember the year ago ortwo years ago. I remember we were
leaving, We're all done, andI was walking out and I go,
you know, but still I gotthis like that numb thing and I'm go,
(55:28):
one numb thing and I said,well, my lip is numb.
You go, that's not that's notgood. I go, what, Mindy
said, it might be because shewas in the dentist. No, you
gotta check that out. Okay.So I walking to the elevator and I
google numb lip and cancer and itcomes up nun lipped syndrome. You're gonna
(55:50):
be dead within three months, right, And I'm like, I ran back
into you. I'm gonna die inthree months. And I still it's all,
no, not dead yet, notdead yet, but dang, it's
dead. It's it's numb. Soyeah, she was ring, I'm a
number over here, and number numberthank you again for your time. Please
say hi to the kids. Enjoythe summer. It's uh. I would
(56:14):
love to see you guys again.Bring them up. You're getting married here
pretty soon. Congratulation yes, yes, thank you and happy happy birthday,
Happy, thank you, thank you, thank you for the friendship. But
really it's um, it's been wonderful. That's what you're getting for your birthday.
Yes, I look forward to readingthat. I really do. All
(56:34):
right, be well doctor girls,Thank you again for your time. Goodness year,
Hi, I'm Mindy Sterns and I'mGlenn's Sterns, and this is Grit Happens.
Join us as we engage in candidconversations with some of the most successful
people in every field and from everywalk of life. All it's a common
thread of grit and a goal ofnot just surviving, but thriving. And
we hope that the show will helpyou feel informed, energized, and especially
(00:27):
inspired. So let's get started.This is great Happens. Ah, here
we are, It's gurd Happens.Another fun episode. Glad to be back
in the red seat. Were inthe red seat. Well, you know,
we're continuing our dialogue about your Imean, Grit Happens continues to thrive
as we do. We'd have reallygreat conversations with people in life who've gone
(00:51):
through grit, who experienced grit,who have used kind of you know,
has had a corner stone, agrit in their life to overcome and become
successful in many different ways, personally, professionally, and so on and so
forth. Am you wrote a bookand there's a chapter in here. There's
a chapter in here that highlights oneof our guests, our guests today and
we're going to talk a little bitabout your journey through cancer. That the
(01:12):
chapter is called you are not thatspecial. I like that. I'm gonna
use that tied. I'm gonna usethat chapter more. I'm gonna just I'm
just gonna say to you, yousay chapter seventeen. That's all. I'm
just gonna say it. You remindme every day I do You're not special.
But this gentleman who is here todaywas very very intimately in Glenn's mouth
(01:34):
and it's become a very dear friendand has become a friend so um.
Doctor Neil Gross a surgeon scientist ofheadnet cancers at MD Anderson. He's the
director of Clinical Research of headneck SurgeryAdam D. Anderson. A lot of
surgery related clinical trials. You're focusingon the HPV related cancers. You have
a very vast and incredible um resume. That is I duck. Yeah,
(01:57):
it's here. You are. Youdon't have a white labquote on right now,
we're here. I know, Iknow you're used to seeing me in
scrubs and a white lab coat.We have fatures of over the years.
It's wonderful. Hey, guess what, it's my birthday. It's really and
I can think of no better placeto spend it at this time. Happy
birthday, birthday doctor who wrote HappyBirthday to you? Are you twenty one,
(02:24):
because yeah, that'd be like twelve. Yeah, yeah, no,
I'm I'm a little older than that. But you know, wiser right,
always special that we have you all. Happy birthday, Happy, happy birthday.
So let's talk a little bit aboutum meeting Glenn Stearns. When you
(02:46):
met this man, obviously you're meetingpeople under not so ideal circumstances. Yeah,
absolutely, but a friendship. Soto delay the groundwork, right,
I mean, in in my life, I've had a lot of great ups
and I've had some downs, right, And you know at the time when
(03:07):
I met you, I was ina really good up. I mean I
was running to my I had aboat in Florida and I had a boat
in Costa Rica. I ran intoMD Anderson to say, look, can
you hurry up and get this littlechuck up done because I've got my friends
in Costa Rica and I've got myprivate jet waiting for me. So can
(03:30):
we cut this thing a little shortso I can jump and I literally go
down to Costa Rica. I haven'tgot all the news yet. And then
there's a phone call waiting for me. Do you mind, Um, we
saw a little something on the screenand we'd like to talk to you about
that. And I went, oh, no, I never underestimate cancer.
(03:53):
Gosh. And that was my introductionto you basically at that moment in time.
Yeah, you know what, goahead. No, No, I
was just gonna say that's you know, especially for a disease that has such
a high cur rate, right everybodycomes into it. I think. The
message to patients and rightfully so ishey, this is early stage disease,
(04:15):
a high rate of cure, thechance of it coming back is low,
and you know, so to beone of the folks who's unlucky enough where
it comes back is like is likea gut punch. Well, you know,
and I this is what I thought, And I thought, okay,
Well, first when I heard thenews that I had cancer, it was
(04:36):
like a fifty fifty shot because youknow, they're thinking cancer in the throat
and they told me that, andthen they said a little later, well,
if it's related to HPV, it'smore like an eighty five percent currate.
And I was like, can Ihave that one, you know,
like I want that right, andthey go, we don't know yet.
We got to do some tests andso but that time was hell right because
(05:00):
it was a coin toss, right, are you gonna live, You're gonna
die? And when I found outit was related to hpv UM, I
was grateful that, you know,I got the worst, the best of
the worst, the best of theworst. But then I thought, also
the fifteen percent, they must bethe people that don't listen to their doctor,
(05:20):
they don't do everything they're supposed todo. I am going to do
it all, and I did.I did their radiation, that cheme out
therapy. I did. He movedto Texas. Bricks in my neck.
That's called acupunct acupuncture. I prayedto Mecca. I did like Eastern Western,
(05:41):
I did Northern medicine, Southern medicine, everything you can think of.
And I knew i'd fallen at eightyfive percent. And then I didn't think
your diet changed at all. Thechicken wings are really and you didn't stop
drinking at all. That's not it, doctell and he didn't. He didn't
minimize the stress in his life atall. And we don't know I mean,
(06:03):
the truth is we don't know.I mean, generally, it's not
something you did or didn't do.Now, smoking is bad, alcohol is
not helpful. Stress, right isnot good for anybody. But we don't
know, is the truth. Weand we'll never be able to know.
In your case, what you knowwhy it came back. But but you
(06:25):
know, I don't think it's fairto blame patience right when it comes back.
There's something with the tumor, there'ssomething with the biology that for whatever
reason, you know, it's moreaggressive. Doctor. Can I ask you
a question, because I just hadan article sent to me yesterday that HBV
related cancers are like epidemic before theyare on the rise more than ever.
(06:48):
Can you run some of the statsjust for people who maybe I mean,
there's a lot of people out there, a lot of men going, WHOA
did I am? I will Iyou know? Yeah, no, no,
it's good now, not a littlebit sure. Thanks for you know,
thanks for having me right, Thanksfor my patient and behaving most of
the most of the time. We'lltalk about that in a minute. No,
(07:09):
I mean, and and I guessmy my only wishes that we had
met sooner, right, because um, you know, so much has changed
and I mean I didn't know youwhen the initial treatment decisions were made,
and you know, the the fightthat you went through initially. Um but
you know HPV is an epidemic ituh now and it's it's uh so.
(07:32):
HPV associated cancers account for five percentof all cancers worldwide. So it's not
you know that cervical cancer, that'soral, pharyngeal cancer, throw cancer,
that's anal cancer, pano cancer,and so it's a huge it's a huge
number if you if you just lookacross the world. And that's why it's
(07:53):
miraculous, right that we have avaccine that is preventative. If if if
you would ask people twenty years ago, thirty years ago, hey god,
if we could only have a vaccinethat could prevent percent of cancers in the
whole world, who who would notdo that? Who would not be behind
that? And yet it still hasyou know, I think it's wrapped up
(08:15):
in a lot of stigma, right, So we still don't have the uptake
that we want for this, butbut it is improving and we're getting there.
It's just slow and it's that's whyI think getting you know, including
this in the book and in yourstory, Glan and just talking about it
(08:37):
publicly is valuable. So I readthat there that eighty five percent of Americans
walking around probably have the hpv IRUs, Like if you've had more than one
partner you've got you probably have it. Is that the statistics that correct to
say, I would say it's higher. So, first of all, there's
over one hundred and fifty different subtypesof HPV. There's many, many different
(09:00):
strains of the virus. And ifyou walk around town and this is any
town in the US, and youswap people's mouths, you'll find active oral
HPV and five to eight percent.So at any given time, you know
a certain percentage of folks will havesome strain of TV in their mouth.
(09:20):
And so that's why the vaccines recommendedbefore puberty, because once people start kissing,
you know, real kissing or havingsex, then then they're swapping virus
and that and it's and so everybodyis exposed. I mean, it's it's
it's ubiquitous. And I think ofit kind of like you know how people
(09:41):
think about chicken pox and shingles.So it used to be everybody got chicken
pox. I mean, now there'sa vaccine to prevent it. But you
know, back in the day,everybody got chicken pox and only a certain
percentage will wind up getting shingles,which is a reactivation the virus um.
We don't know why some do,some don't, but it's similar with HPV.
(10:05):
It's a virus um. It's almosteverybody's exposed, and for some reason
the virus can um can integrate intothe DNA of some patients and then develop
into a cancer decades later, andwe just don't know exactly why. At
least we treat it differently. Mymom would throw me and kids in a
(10:28):
room with chicken pox and say goget it, get it over with,
right. We don't always go swapspit with everybody in the room and everybody
spread it around and then you're whatever. At least we're trying. Is there
is for those for I mean whatI've what I'm hearing, just in my
unofficial observation, it seems like there'smore and more men that are getting these
(10:52):
throat cancers, and like for women, we have the peraps mere, we
have our annuals. There's that's whatour screening is for. Is cervical related
be cancers. What can men do, because I mean I've I've said to
a lot of men, Hey,go in for an upper throat scan.
Go for a throat scope and anupper gi I won't hurt. You might
as well go look for your regularities. If you're having a chronic store throat,
(11:15):
if you're having horse you know,if you're having swelling in olymphnos.
It doesn't hurt to go get screened. Right. Can you catch it pretty
early? Yeah, I mean earlydetection is the key to any cancer,
and certainly this is the case aswell. I mean, the most common
presenting sign is a lump in theneck. Somebody is shaping, you know,
a guy is shaving and they're like, oh, hey, I feel
something in my neck. And then, you know, they eventually get a
(11:37):
biopsy and it shows cancer. Andit turns out that cancer started in the
tonsil tissue somewhere, either the tonsiltissue on the back of the tongue or
the tonsil tissue that you think ofin the tonsils, because this virus has
a predilection for that tissue, whichis very similar to cervical tissue. Actually,
that's why the virus. You know, there's some connection. Now why
(12:01):
it is true. So HPV associatedthroat cancer is in the top ten list
of cancers for men in the USevery year right now, and it's not
it's not yet in the top tenfor women. So we see it more
frequently in man, and it probablyhas more to do with just, uh,
you know, historically men are morelikely to take on riskier behaviors,
(12:26):
right, So man are more likelyto take on like to speed and more
likely to skydive, and more likelyto do everything risky and go down the
girl. Gosh, did you haveor maybe or maybe just have more sexual
partners? Right, yes, moremore written like just it's just I probably
(12:46):
a numbers game. Um, that'smy that's my impression with it. But
Glenn is a hoe. We justnow we're establishing that Glenn has been a
hoe. Okay, So Glenn isa risk taker. I think that's that's
okay. I have a lot offans that look up to me out there
and think I'm not you're not takingYes, there we go. I like
(13:11):
that. The doctors said that.I like that. I think that's so.
Is there something so okay? Sayyou got a lump in your neck,
don't be afraid, right, yougo in you get it screen,
Like is there something to let peopleknow, like, Okay, you got
don't freak out, You're not goingto die. Just go in and get
it check Don't let that lump sitthere and grow. Catch it early.
Right, it's a pretty highly curablethat you said, yeah, absolutely,
(13:33):
I mean if something's not right,it's wrong and get it checked out.
Women are better at this than men, that's another issue. And women will
go and get stuff checked out.Men are are slower to do it.
And there's there's actually data that showsthat men who are married live longer than
men who are single single wife's tellingthem what to go down because the wife
is like, hey, you needto go get that checked out. That
(13:54):
thing growing off the side of yourhead is not normal. Had a lump
on their neck, and they weredoing a show that we're um realite of
someone. We knew that a storywhere someone saw something contacted him and said,
you need to go get that checkedout, like you've got a swelling.
And it turned out to be everytime now that I see anybody all
I got swollen gland, I'm like, yeah, I will say it's it
(14:20):
is a little awkward, you know, as a physician. If I see
a stranger, I'm in an airportand I see a stranger with a lump
on the neck or something that doesn'tlook right, you know, that can
be that can be awkward and howto I'm not shy anymore? Is that
if you check that out, youknow, I mean, just tell people
(14:41):
just yeah, yeah, I meanI think it's the right thing. Okay.
Do you think there's any association becauseit's on such a rise now.
It's not that we're more sexually active. I mean people have always been sexually
active, right, But so doyou think there has anything to do with
the positioning of the phone next tothe next people have been talking on the
I mean, if you think aboutthe Wall Street brick phone, which had
no protection from people all those yearsago, you know, and you got
(15:03):
this big old brick and now thesemen are growing and maturing into their fifties
and sixties, and now they're gettingthese neck and head cancers. I mean,
we haven't had very safe phones forthe last thirty years or twenty however
long we've been around. You thinkthere's anything any merits to that active anything?
So No, I don't think so. I mean, I think it
does have to do with you know, the sixties and seventies there was you
(15:24):
know, free love, right,think there was a change in the culture.
Uh, And I think I thinkyou mix this with more more you
know, swapping saliva, more intimateencounters, more more sexual behaviors, then
I think that's explained. That explainswhy there's just more HPV in the circulation
(15:46):
essentially, and then and then whoever, you know, more active right earlier,
there has nothing to do with anythingother than um, since you were
kind of shaming me on my behavior. Um, well, I do think
that's a problem, you know,I mean, so much of this is
(16:06):
the stigma around Oh this is sexuallytransmitted, this is blah blah blah.
And I really want to dissuade folksfrom thinking that because it's everybody's exposed,
everybody, and that's why vaccine isso valuable. Anybody thinks some one that's
not like sexually active, you're justkissing them. Yeah, what I have
heard a lot and I anyway,what I've heard about some people is you're
(16:33):
you know, these negative people,these people that are so you know,
just it's just very just angry people. Um, that's how cancer happens when
you're a negative person, you know, is that true? Do you think
there's any merit to how you holdyourself as well? Your body's going to
react not be like I don't know. I don't know. I mean,
(16:53):
I don't I think it gets backto like, I can't imagine it helps.
And I will say that people whoare positive, people who are fighters
like you, Glan, do better. I mean for sure when once they're
diagnosed. Right, So, Idon't know that it makes a difference in
who gets cancer as much as ifyou do get cancer, your chance of
(17:15):
making it out the other end,attitude makes a huge difference in that.
I think that there's a lot ofmerit to that. So you let me.
I'm going to ask you about whenyou first got diagnosed, like when
someone does first get Glenn had quitean experience when he first What would it
What would be your suggestion as aprofessional, how if someone does get that
cancer diagnosis, what do they dowith it? Or how how should they
what's next? Like mentally, whatdo you do? Yeah, I mean
(17:38):
it's important to educate yourself around aroundthis. And you know, Glenn,
I think you this is the secretto your success. It sounds like from
what I know that you are willingto to seek help from people who know
know the issue right, and youyou incorporated that you're in your business world
(18:00):
and you just say, oh,Okay, this person is smart. They
know I'm gonna I'm gonna take theiradvice and do it and um and you
educate yourself through that person. Andit's different for every person, but I
think educating patients need to be It'shelpful for them to be educated, but
not so much to the point thatthey're kind of trying to dictate their own
care and not doctor Google. Imean, you're going to die where you're
(18:26):
going with this, I think DUC. I mean, I know some really
smart people. They're so smart thati'd call them dumb, okay, and
getting their own way, Yeah,because I've seen some people that have said
I'm going to do all the research. I know two people that have died
from doing the research so long thatthey ended up the cancer kept growing in
(18:48):
them and then they didn't get itcut, you know, caught early enough.
When they had it, they knewabout it, but they took a
year they take figure it out isolatedjust Eastern medicine and not you said,
I even would look at um,look at jobs, Steve Jobs. Right,
there's an example somebody. Yeah,No, absolutely, I mean I
(19:10):
think, Um, I mean there'sa certain amount of denial. And I
think people who are used to successbeing successful have a hard time, um
being told what you know. Theyconfine they have to do something, they
have they this has to become thepriority. And and there's a lot there's
some folks, you know, Ithink folks who are more successful tend to
(19:33):
try to negotiate more. You know, they're kind of like, well,
I mean do I really need todo? I really think they know better.
But there I think there's different personalitiesin in people that are successful.
And like I give you an exampleto your point. Take Steve Jobs.
(19:53):
I'm going to figure it out myown way and I'm going to go with
this Eastern medicine and I'm going tolive a healthy life instead of the odds.
Like I've always been really simple.If someone else has figured it out,
why do I want to do allthe hard work? And when when
we went on our first vacation,I just googled where did all the richest,
(20:15):
most successful people go? Because someoneelse did all the hard work for
them to figure out that that isthe most exclusive, cool place to go.
When it came to medicine, whereis the best cancer hospital in the
world. This is your fault doctor, why I got there? Oh man,
(20:37):
sorry, but so why what isthe best hospital? And then what
were the odds for the treatment?Right? So we went through and there
was the gold standard at the time. And the irony of my um of
your original diagnosis. Yeah, theirony of that was that I had on
(21:00):
to GW Hospital and they said they'redoing a new program where they would do
chemo therapy and then they would doa surgical resection, a robotic surgical resection
of and that's all they did.And they said they success rate. Sign
me up. I said, howmany people you had so far? We've
(21:22):
got like twenty people. I wenttwenty. That's it. You know,
for a couple of years, thatmakes me nervous. To MD Anderson,
We've had thousands and thousands of peopleand we do it the old school way
and it's eighty five percent successful onthousands of people. Well, I just
said that that those odds work forme, even though I kind of fell
(21:45):
into the other category. But yeah, still, you know, it just
seems. But to go off onyour own and try to you know,
think you're gonna do it because nowyou're gonna change your diet and now you're
gonna pray to Mecca to I'd rathergo with the odds, you know.
Yeah, I mean there's a sweetspot. Yeah. Ultimately, you have
(22:07):
to be comfortable with the decision.It's your life and you have to be
comfortable with the folks who are treatingyou. And many patients have they don't
have the luxury of going wherever theywant, right, They kind of end
up going what's what is available tothem. And but but but you know
a lot of folks have choice andcan figure that out in it it you
(22:29):
know, who's patients to anybody tolook in at their options. And I
mean, you did the right thing. You had a couple of options.
You were able to kind of weighit and balance and make that decision.
Now, different patients might have differentchoices, but you made the best decision
for you at the time, Andthat's that's the key, is helping patients
make the best decisions. The ironyagain of time. Right now that we're
(22:52):
ten years past that, it lookslike the new standard is to do immunotherapy
and dissection right or and so Ikind of they were on the front end
of that, and now they've changedthe way some of those are cared for.
I guess depends on each case.But yeah, it's slow. It's
(23:15):
slow to change, you know,these old patterns in medicine because people are
risk averse. They don't want todisrupt something that especially something that seems to
work for most people. But youknow, it's been a passion of mine
is to be disruptive. I thinkthat's where I do see a lot of
um, you know, I II feel I feel a connection with you,
(23:38):
Glenn that I don't feel with alot of other patients, partly because
I have that that and also partlybecause of my own upbringing and challenges you
know, growing up. Um,you know, I grit is I think
a big part of who I amas well, and um, and so
(23:59):
that that has been a strong connection. I feel, Well, we didn't
we didn't, you know, wekind of jumped right into this and we
didn't go through our relationship. Andyou know, I have a definite relationship
with you than anybody, you know. I absolutely respect you and appreciate what
you did for me, you changedhis life in many ways, yes,
(24:22):
good and bad, you know.And I've had that conversation like aren't you
mad at him? He cut offyour apple? Glattis you can never eat
again. I said that you couldlook at it that way, or you
could look at it like you savedmy life, right, like you're gonna
put your energy where you're gonna putit, you know. And the fact
is, from what I understand becauseI was asleep, you went back and
(24:45):
forth for like hours, not youknow, just cutting a tiny little piece
off, not trying to get there. And that's what Tim Warren had told
us that, you know, thephotographer, the cameraman who was there filming
at all, he talked about howyou painstakenly to just such a tiny section
and tried so hard to get takeas little as you could. And then
(25:06):
but so I look at it like, you know, hey, you did
what you could do, and I'ma very appreciative of it. And and
I think, um, we goback to the purpose of that this podcast
has been about. It's about mindset, really, right. You got grit,
you got problems in life, yougot things out, How are you
going to handle them? What areyou gonna do about it. And in
this case, you know, I'mvery appreciative of our relationship. And there's
(25:30):
some people that might flip it onyou, right and go your bestard this
you do, You didn't You dideverything in your power, and I'm very
very grateful for everything you did.And so i'm you know, I respect
how you operate and and we've gottento know each other deeper than probably most
patience. And let's talk a littlebit about that, because you know,
(25:51):
it takes a mindset to go throughbattle, deal, heal, and conquer
and go up against cancer. Whatkind of like talk about Glenn's mindset and
how you think others can learn fromthat mindset with what you've seen in the
patients you've treated and how he isin his own way. Yeah, So
you know, patients come in everydifferent permutation, every different variety. Right.
(26:15):
Many patients come in just spooted,just freaked out, and and and
that's where they can be so scaredthat sometimes they get into trouble and they
just kind of accept the most aggressivething, or they just kind of they're
making decisions entirely out of fear.And so those patients you kind of have
to walk them back, calm themdown, you know, help them reorient.
(26:38):
And some patients come in, youknow, in Glen's case when we
met, he'd been treated before,was doing great for like four years out
you know, this was this wascoming in for a high five. And
then I can't remember, I don'tknow who you saw. But then as
is doctor Webber, my former boss, and then he he called me and
(27:00):
said, hey, I got Igot this guy and you know, he's
got a jet to catch or something. You know, I can't know what
it was. And uh, youknow, can you see him? And
so, you know, meeting Glenn, it was it was different. I
mean, he's you know, Glenn'slike, hey, I can beat this,
I can do whatever. When whencan we get it done? Because
I got to get on with this, this and this, and I mean
(27:22):
he's trying to fit cancer and itwas schedule. Yeah, it was.
It was so I think it wassuch a it was such a shock that
you were by yourself, Glenn.I mean, Mindy wasn't there. I
think you we called, we phonedyou in right to have the discussion and
and and I know I know whatyou what was coming for you, but
to get you to that point ofunderstanding, you know, of of just
(27:48):
understanding all that was. You know, you just can't do that and in
fifteen minutes or thirty minutes or whateverit was, it was going to be
an iter process. Well, whensomeone told me that, you know,
you're one of the best in theworld with this um robotic, well not.
It was a UM like a laser. And so when I thought of
as a laser in my mind,I thought of people that go get a
(28:11):
tattoo removed, right like you justgo just over the top of the skin
and it kills that level layer ofskin and you might just a few more.
So I thought I was going inwhere you would just just and burn
the skin right there and then we'redone. And that's why I thought I
could go back to do this televisionshow is going to do like four days
(28:33):
later, right like I didn't knowit was a robotic surgical scalpel, right
like I had no clue, youknow, I thought i'd be out in
a day where I was in thehospital like ten days. I didn't even
remember it. It was a blurof like morphine, you know, and
you know we attitude is everything,don't you don't you think a lot of
(28:55):
attitude is huge. Attitude is huge. Um. I mean you you know,
you as unlucky as you were,you were also in a favorable category
because it was caught small. Imean there was two patients that came through
this week who've had recurrencies that werecaught more advanced, and the only surgery
if we're going to if that personhave surgery. Two patients this week would
(29:19):
have required removing the entire tongue inthe entire voice box, could never talk,
could never eat again. I mean, that's and the only option for
these patients. It's awful. Theonly option is it is an experimental chemotherapy
immunotherapy, which is not likely towork. So you know the fact that
(29:41):
it was caught early, we're ableto put you on a clinical trial.
We're able to kind of thread theneedle and removing it, but without removing
too much. Man, I feltlucky about it, as bad as I
feel about the situation that you're inand just the you know, it's just
the impact on your life and andand anybody going through cancer once, but
(30:06):
but more than once, it's it'sit's yeah, I've learned to cook,
so it's okay. This is sofunny doctor Gruss because he now watches beat
Bobby Flay, the Best Table,Open Table, Food Wars, whatever,
and he's like pulling up these recipes. He's making dinner for the family.
He doesn't get to eat any ofit. I just got four of the
(30:27):
best knives I got him in themail yesterday in your cloth, Like,
what is this fantastic? I meanlike I need to be a part of
it. Right. If I can'teat with everybody, at least I could
cook the food or I just wantI don't want to be pour me sitting,
you know, in a chair everybodyelse is at dinner. I mean
(30:48):
it doesn't bother me when people eat. I don't care. His new fetish
is to feed me. Stay outof that. I like to know.
I go the rest run. ButI want to do something. He's like,
no, let me, I'll orderfor you. I'll cut it,
I'll put it in your psychist whohits his new thing. I gotta do
something. I don't want to justsit there. I mean that's about taking
(31:11):
something that such it could be sucha down. I mean he has a
choice, And don't you agree thatevery patient has a choice for how they
deal with what's happening because you can'tdo much about it in the moment.
It's you've got to do something,and you have a choice for how you're
going to attack it. Absolutely absolutely, I mean, I mean, and
the folks who are have have thatintensity, and it's and it's not always
(31:36):
easy to tell who has that untilthey're going through. But but yeah,
the folks that have that just theycome out the other end just different,
right, and they're they're survivors.They're inherently survivors. And that's um,
that's that help. You've given meten years of life. I'm the only
(31:56):
human being that cancers giving me tenyears because I don't pizza up, French
fridge, chicken wings, alcohol,don't drink and I have a perfect diet
right now. It's very regulated andwonderful. So I'm gonna live longer than
I would have lived. So Ilook at this as a positive experience in
my life. Well, a littlebit twist. He's a little twisted too,
(32:17):
because you gotta tell you, gottatell her the listeners what he wanted
you to do. Every time hecomes down there, like he's like,
yeah, I will say, you'rethe only patient that I have who has
made this request to me, andit's it's basically every time you come in
and that request is doc one ofthese times when you come in, can
(32:38):
you just have a long face anda pause and then tell me it's come
back? And my answer is what? Right? My answer is, I
can't do that. You come in, You've tried, though, you say,
you walk in. I can't doit. I can't do it.
You tried, like you, hey, you know what try? What's the
difference and if it's real or itisn't real for me? Because if it
(33:01):
did come back and he's and you'relike, I know, but no,
it really did, like you'd belike, wait, that'd be awkward.
It would be awkward unless I toldyou it's okay, because you know what,
your words and real life aren't goingto change what's really where I am,
right, I mean, I'm ifyou told me it in real life.
(33:23):
We caught it early. I'm excitedthat we caught it early. If
I get through and I don't haveit, I can wait another six months,
right, So, no matter what, it's going to be a positive
answer, right because if I catchit early, I'm ready to fight it
again. No, but though,but We did have one doctor say if
(33:44):
it comes back a third time,take it all out, take it out,
don't even be I mean, we'vegot a doctor came in and sat
down with him. Yeah, verylike graphic about his passion. If it
came back a third time, donot mess around, take it all,
take it your vocal, your tongue. I'm like, that's kind of extreme.
Do you feel that way? Doyou have that mindset? Well?
(34:07):
I mean I think, um,that's such a I mean that situation.
Right. You can't even nobody canknow what the journey is for for a
cancer patient or what it was liketo be in that chair for Glenn at
either of these time points. Andthat's another unique time point that it's hard.
You know, it's not at allwhat I think or what I mean
(34:29):
to try to give the best advice, but it's really what it's got to
be driven by patients. It's sucha personal decision something like that, Right,
So you know what Glenn, Glenby the way, I want I
want to go backwards for a second. I'm sorry, you can talk that,
Okay, I'm talking about this.I don't want to make fun of
cancer for other people who are sufferingand who've had traumatic issues. It's their
(34:51):
journeying and it's horrible and people dieand we're all gonna die in my own
personal journey, I don't mind theband turn the fun and I've allowed you
to walk in the room, closethe door, and throw a joke or
two. But that's definitely, fornine percent, probably not the right thing
to do, right, And otherpeople might get mad at me. You're
(35:13):
making light of cancer. No,I've got the cancer. I'm not.
I'm not making light of other people'scancer. I'm making the fact that we're
all going to get something. Hey, I want to live a positive life.
If I am on my deathbed,I don't mind my friends coming up
and kicking me. Why are youdying on me right now? Ory Like,
I don't why. I don't wantpeople with a sad face. Oh
(35:35):
you're dying. We're all gonna die, you know. So one last thing
on this Sorry, I walked intothe room. I think I said this
for when I first had cancer,and there was about two hundred people that
I knew in this room. Theywere all friends of ours from an event,
and it was when we first foundout, so everyone knew I had
it and when I walked in,Boy, could you see everyone? No
(35:59):
one knew it to do. Andthe room kind of went like weird,
and people look down and people lookedaway, and I was noticing this everywhere
and I was laughing inside in aweird way, like people don't know how
to handle this. Some people cameup, looked at me, gave me
a hug, you know, whichis nice, right. Other people looked
(36:20):
away because they just wanted to avoidme. Two guys walked up to me.
One guy goes up to me andhe goes, thanks, now I
can't tell my favorite cancer jokes.Appreciate it, walks away right like I
like that, get a little jokelike you bump blame me. And the
other guy goes, hey, realsorry about your cancer. I know it
sucks. Look, I'm sure you'retired. Can I tell you? I
can I ask you about something elseinstead of the stupid cancer. I like
(36:43):
that too, right, So everybodydeals with differently, and you know,
but for me, I you know, I don't want people feeling sorry for
me. We're all gonna go forsomething and you might as well laugh and
joke and you know, and that'sjust my way anyway. I just well,
I was gonna say, you know, you know, one of the
(37:05):
most terrifying things that he went through. I don't want to go back too
much, but I think this isinteresting to point out, is that,
uh, and they talked about itin the book, is when he was
going through you weren't part of thisprocess before, when he went through the
first time, when he went throughthe radiation and he had to have the
mesh place on his face, ifyou had a lot of patients you've talked
to during that process, because thatstressed him out, and that was terrifying
(37:30):
and confining, and I think alot of patients have to go through that
when they put that liquid mesh onand they staple it to the table,
and that was a real how dohow do people? What do you tell
people? How do you guide people? It's hard, I mean going through
that initial treatment is terrifying for everypatient going through what you went through initially
(37:52):
planned. And you know that's whya big part of my you know,
what I do clinical trials and researchis to find better options for future patients,
right because we know what we dois destructive and it is hard on
it's terrifying, and yeah, themask for radiation. Headneck radiation is unbelievable.
(38:15):
I mean, if it's like outof a movie, they and Glenn
can describe it better than I do. But yeah, book, it's very
graphic, and it's every day,five days a week for you know,
thirty thirty five sessions and so people, I mean people have true PTSD sometimes
from that, and they have Thereare even ceremonies where people have like burn
(38:38):
their mask or they you know,they turn it in an art and things
like this that it's it's a bigdeal and you know, just and head
and neck cancer in general, throatcancer is so central, right, I
mean, it's like the kitchen ofyour body. It's where you eat,
where you talk, it's where youbreathe. This is where people see you
(39:00):
kiss, where you're intimate. Wereyou know though? Yes I didn't again
maybe because I don't overprocess things toomuch. I didn't know what I was
getting myself into, right, LikeI didn't when we had the surgery.
I thought you were going to burnit like a little you know, tattoo.
Yeah, And I've always said thatignorance is bliss, and I'm I'm
(39:22):
happy I don't dig too deep sometimes, but when um. I walked into
that room. They said, okay, we're gonna get you ready for you
know, to be able to goand do your your radiation. I didn't
know what they were doing. Ididn't understand. They put this warm mask
and it felt this It was likea net netting and it felt really nice
(39:45):
and warm. I liked it,like whoa. And they were massaging my
face with it, but they werejust making it really firm around my face
and I was biting inside. Themask is a bit so I was biting
this thing or then they put themask and it's just soft netting, and
then they went click click click clickall around my head. Right, I'm
(40:09):
like, okay, what is thatnow? It starts to all of a
sudden going and all of a sudden, what's going on? But I can't
talk because I got to bite bymound and all of a sudden it's getting
tight. My lashes up, oneeyes up, mun's down and all of
a sudden, what I want tosay, I'm I'm uncomfortable. I don't
(40:31):
like but I couldn't size went withmy arms like because I couldn't move.
I was stuck, and all ofa sudden my heart started pounding like and
I'm not I didn't think I wasclusterphobic, but it also bound bound pound,
and all of a sudden, I'mgoing and these ladies come over.
They're like petting me, or you'regonna be okay? Do you want us
(40:53):
to stop? You're okay? Andthen I'm thinking I'm gonna dive a heart
attack. I'm gonna explode owed myheart because I'm freaking out too much.
And then that made me freak outeven more. And then I just I
closed my eyes. I say that, but it wouldn't close because it was
stuck in the mesh, and Ijust started to try to think about it.
(41:15):
I was dancing with my daughter inthis event that a couple of nights
earlier, and I'm just trying toI want to dance with my daughter again,
dance with my daughter again, controlto try to get my heart slow
down. You know, we aren'tyou supposed to take a value before that?
No, no, those when theyput it back on you to do
(41:35):
that actual treatment. The next time, they said, look, we give
you this value, take it anhour before you'll calm down. I promise
you I will. So it wasthe next day, Hey, we have
a appointment set up. I gofor ten. Well, we have one
at nine right now, if you'dlike to go because it's open. I
said, great, So we're racingthere. We had fifteen minutes to get
(41:57):
there. I walk in the door. I go, let me take my
value. My value. So Itook it going down the stairs, right,
so I don't know that it evenswallowed it. Yeah, because I
didn't have any water. I justpopped the pill with no I walk in
and go Table three. I setand I was like, oh my god,
it's starting again and I'm laying themy valume is stuck in my throat.
(42:22):
Oh my god. Anyway, thisis a horse story. Well from
then on I didn't take a valuebecause I was like, ah, get
through it. Yeah, oh that'sthe story. What what is your hope
for the future for cancers? Likewhat is you? What are you?
What is your optimistic viewpoint on thefuture. And we already talked about the
(42:45):
vaccine, right, so prevention isso key and this is one disease that
is preventable with the vaccine. Sothat's a big part of the future for
sure. And then we also talkedabout early detection. You know, I
mean most patients with this cancer,they come in with a lymph node metastas
it's already spread to a lymph node. That's later than we want because it
(43:07):
is there an earlier detection than thelymph node. Can you see it visually
from a scope? Are you ableto detect some so dentist you know,
I know, Mandy, your brother. The dental community is actually the front
lines of detection from many of thesepatients. They have to look a little
further back at the fossils. ButI've had patients who've who've been referred,
(43:32):
you know, from from it beingfound by a dentist. But you know,
we still need earlier detection techniques,and I think in the future we
will have basically the equivalent of aliquid biopsy, so a blood test,
a blood test that can check forcirculating tumor DNA. I mean, it's
(43:53):
already available, but we still are. It's still being studied and researched,
and it's not ready for prime time. It's not ready for um, you
know, to be used to screenpatients that kind of thing. But in
the future will have either an oralswab or a blood test or some combination
like this that can help us detectthis earlier. You know what, I
(44:14):
just went to the doctor to getSCANN. I'm like, look, if
he has it, I probably haveit. And I get, you know,
sore throat and I'm like, Iwant to do a sculculated an upper
GI scope of me about a weekago, two weeks ago, and the
doctor said, this company does thisblood test detect from markers for HBV possible
related you know, like if youhave the like the predisposition to have it.
Like so I just had a bloodthat came to my office and got
(44:36):
blood last week. So it's likethis new thing. I didn't it's it's
what there must be they're testing itout or something. So yeah, it's
it's it's and it's just been overthe last few years that we and not
even patients where we know they havecancer and we checked the test sometimes it
doesn't work right. So it's notand it's especially infancy struggling in patients were
(45:00):
have minimal disease, Like it maynot have picked up Blend's recurrence because it
was caught or you know, itwas seen on imaging, but it was
still small. So there, it'sstill got a long way to go,
but just like with cell phones andall technologies, they're getting better and better,
and so it's clear to see thatthat's the future. And our treatments
are also going to get smarter andbetter and more refined. I mean the
(45:22):
robot that I used in your surgery, Glenn. We have a new model.
We have a new model one.Now there's new combinations of immunotherapy and
chemotherapy and radio. Everything's improving.It's just not fast enough. So let's
okay, we ones on the wayto you. You got your sign book
(45:45):
coming. But integrity is the titlewith grit in nice bold because life is
you know, there's grit in themiddle of life, and there's grit in
the middle of integrity. What doesit mean to you if you if you
were to summarize the actual word,notion concept of integrity, what what sinks
in with you? Yeah? Ithink it's uh. I mean, I
(46:07):
just love I love the word.I love how you've framed it. You
know, grit happens um. Integrityis is very much doing what you say
right, where your actions follow yourwords and as simple as simple as that,
I mean, And it's easy forfolks to say one thing and act
(46:30):
a different way. They can saythey love their family and then never see
them. That is not integrity.Yeah, um, you know. Um,
So to me, that's that's whatit's all about. And I'm not
saying that's easy. I think everyonestruggles with that because there can be a
disconnect and they can have they canbe what they aspire. They really want
(46:52):
to be this way, but theiractions are this way. But aligning your
your intentions and your actions, Um, to me, that's what it is.
I've heard that once. It said, ask yourself what, write down
what your top priorities are. Anda lot of people with family, but
then where's most of your time actuallyspent? Like you really need to look
(47:13):
at those two are aligned? Doctor, growth, You have to this one
little more comment. There's a coupleof voices in your head, right,
you gotta have the one that knowswhat's the right thing to do it it
has to be louder than the onethat wants something. And you know,
it's very simple too to always makean excuse for why it's okay to lean
(47:34):
with the guy that wants something morethan the guy that knows what's the right
thing to do or go or whateverinside your head. So but go that
to your teenagers, right, yeah, exactly. The moral compass is huge.
I mean, and you know,I mean getting back, I know
we have kids similar age, right, So, and how do you and
I think we've even talked about thisclaim before, I mean, how do
(47:57):
you how do you still this inyour kids? Right? Because you grew
up and I grew up in insituations where that were different. I mean,
my kids have everything they need.Your kids have everything they need because
you can provide it, you can. And our yeah, and our kids
have also almost everything they want,right, And so how do you how
(48:22):
do you instill hunger? How doyou instill this sort of drive in that
situation? And I think it's it'sit's it's by example and um and like
you said, by living with integrityso that they see it and follow that,
yeah, and allowing adversity to intheir lives. I just want to
touch on that you had mentioned itearlier. You had a lot of grit
(48:44):
growing up yourself. I know we'reshort on time and we're wrapping up here,
but I mean to get to theposition you are took a lot of
work, a lot of time,study, years, effort, energy,
grit, adversity, Well, you'reat the topier game. You are the
game that you sound like you didn'tyou started pretty low. It sounds like
you had some adversity in your youth. Is that what you alluded to?
(49:06):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean Igrew up, Um, you know,
I grew up poor, moved arounda lot, I went to I went
to at least ten different schools betweenfirst grade and twelfth grade. Moved a
lot and had to adapt and makenew friends. You can remember, you
know, living out of a carat one point growing up. So just
(49:28):
just a challenge, right And um, but but you know those things I
I they're a gift. And Iknow I've heard didn't say something similar,
right, I mean, the thethe challenges that people have are a gift
because it because you have to sinkor swim, and the and and the
(49:50):
people who swim, they succeed.And you see it in every profession and
across the board. Uh, it'sa similar story. And that again,
that's what resonates with me in somebodylike glad and um, you know this,
this this struggle to success right now, That's that's what I meant when
I said you're at the top ofyour game, because I don't think people
(50:14):
get there by accident. I don'tthink it's it happens when life is just
perfect. I think it happens whenwe have adversity in our lives, you
know. And that's what I meantby that, I didn't get to finish
that sentence, which you have hada lot of struggle, pain and adversity
and you've got to overcome it andget to the top. And that's where
(50:36):
I see so many people have hadsomething to prove, including me. You.
Um, you know, it's justI think it should be looked at
as a gift too, right,because it's not how we start, but
where we finish. And so youknow, we can use that as the
fuel to get us become successful orto work harder or whatever it is you
(51:00):
know in life, Substa. That'swhat's so that's what's so wonderful about you
both telling your story, right,um, because people can look and you
say, oh, yeah, thisguy's got it all, he's you know,
he's wealthy, he's okay, lookingnods looking one. I'm just people
(51:24):
can people can can look at youand just see this guy's had it easy.
It's you know, um. Butbut to tell your story and people
to understand where things come from andwho you are and how you've gotten there
is really valuable. It's it's it'sit's important to tell your story. And
I'm glad. I'm just glad tobe a part of that. Well,
(51:45):
thank you and and and and directthis with the fact that I have had
over a hundred people that I've beenable to refer to M D Anderson,
and I am very appreciative of beinga bridge. Well I'm a board member,
(52:06):
but I'm very pretty appreciative of beingthe bridge to get them to a
very wonderful hospital. And that's becauseby you know, some people don't want
to expose their flaws at all,and that's including cancer. A lot of
people come to me, don't tellanyone. I can't have anyone knowing.
Okay, that's your life, that'sokay, but can you help me Being
(52:28):
open and being vulnerable and showing yourum flaws, I think to me,
it's been a wonderful way to bereal and get people to go man,
I can relate. And so Ilove that because I'm more of a of
a open book, well an openbook, but yeah, I'm very interested
(52:50):
in getting deep with people and I'mnot a very good shallow person, uh,
you know, dealing with other peopleon a shallow level. And so
I really am enjoy being able totell the story. And I actually I
gave many a lot of that creditbecause the cancer story. I was like,
look, I'm all for it.I don't care. You can tell
people whatever I'm not, you know, I open up about it. But
(53:14):
she wanted to go on like carryingbridge and I was like, to me,
that reminds me of like where peoplego to die. And I was
wrong because I know I don't knowa lot more people, but back then
I thought that's what it was.So she said, well, I'm gonna
go on Facebook and I'm gonna geta group and invite everybody, and I'm
gonna tell every week what's going onin your life? Except fine, do
it. And she did and itwas so open. So many people saw
(53:37):
that like a living eulogy in away. You know, it's weird,
like when you tell this story,it's amazing, like Glen talked about the
people in the room. Some people, it's it's an opportunity for people to
really kind of life is short,tell people how you feel. They got
a lot of beautiful. I didhave my funeral to talk about. It
made me happy, you know,to hear was grateful. That's an argument
(54:00):
for being vulnerable and being open.So but again, other people don't.
Maybe some people aren't that way.Everybody's different. That's okay, it's your
own journey. But um, butby by being open, I was able
to refer a lot of people,a lot of people's every So thank you.
You guys are doing that. Yes, we appreciate everything. Amaze in
(54:22):
the world. Doctor, You're wonderful. Oh, by the way, Glenn,
now iss doctor, I forget heis how a doctor? He's got
doctorate at Gannon University and doctorate inhumanities. No, I mean human letters,
human letters? When the heck ishuman letters? I don't know.
He's so dyslexic he doesn't know whatthey are. You tell me, doctor
(54:42):
exactly. So I want you guysto do the doctor. Doctor, do
it, doctor, doctor, doctor, my favorite doctor and doctor. All
right, doctor doctor, gross,thank you. We miss you. I
guess we'll see you in six monthsor so. You know, I've even
said to him, I'm like,Glen, there's this you could do screening
right here. You don't have tofly it all the way to Houston and
(55:05):
fly down and go and stay ina hotel. And he's like, I
want to see doctor Gross. Ienjoy. I enjoy my rhetoric, my
rapport. I want to go whereI started, and I want to remain
connected. So I know we're leaving, but I have to say one more
thing. Remember the year ago ortwo years ago. I remember we were
leaving, We're all done, andI was walking out and I go,
you know, but still I gotthis like that numb thing and I'm go,
(55:28):
one numb thing and I said,well, my lip is numb.
You go, that's not that's notgood. I go, what, Mindy
said, it might be because shewas in the dentist. No, you
gotta check that out. Okay.So I walking to the elevator and I
google numb lip and cancer and itcomes up nun lipped syndrome. You're gonna
(55:50):
be dead within three months, right, And I'm like, I ran back
into you. I'm gonna die inthree months. And I still it's all,
no, not dead yet, notdead yet, but dang, it's
dead. It's it's numb. Soyeah, she was ring, I'm a
number over here, and number numberthank you again for your time. Please
say hi to the kids. Enjoythe summer. It's uh. I would
(56:14):
love to see you guys again.Bring them up. You're getting married here
pretty soon. Congratulation yes, yes, thank you and happy happy birthday,
Happy, thank you, thank you, thank you for the friendship. But
really it's um, it's been wonderful. That's what you're getting for your birthday.
Yes, I look forward to readingthat. I really do. All
(56:34):
right, be well doctor girls,Thank you again for your time. Goodness year,
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