The Nightmare Before Christmas (1993)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to an extraordinary world filled with magic and wonder.
Open your mind and let yourself go to a place
where every day is Halloween and every night Jack Skellington
pump and dreams of something different. What is this?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's someplace new Jack. What haven't you heard of? Peace
on Earth? And good Will Coortman.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
The Touchstone Pictures presents the enchanting story of two very
special dreamers and the holiday spirit that brought them together.
From the imagination of Tim Burton, comes the Nightmare before
Christmas And.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
What did say to bring you Honey?

Speaker 4 (01:02):
Jump with people and welcome to our three hundred and
fifteenth episode of Happiness in Darkness, the superhier Movie podcast,
where we discuss superhero movies Marble, DC, Dark Horse, Image
and Beyond. Naturally, there will be spoilers, folks, so you
have been warned. I'm one of your co hosts. Didgin Neck.
It is always joining is my superhero partner in crime
and the man who keeps me up to date with

(01:24):
all things spooky and huky mister Keith Bliss, Hey Keith,
how are you doing today? Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:30):
Not too bad. It's currently on day three of rain
in North Carolina. I think my gills are coming back,
and then I got to drudge the swamp once it
stops raining. But otherwise fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
Well, I guess we'll be ready for water World then,
and returning to the podcast after way too long is
miss Heather Badoor, Hey Heather, how are you?

Speaker 6 (01:50):
And welcome back Nursing Migraine.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Not always fun to be back, yes, way too long
because every time I want to come on to the show.

Speaker 6 (01:57):
You guys are doing something.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Then you're already busy here and I'm happy, but I'm
also dealing with the barometric pressure from the crazy hurricane
in Jamaica hitting like Florida somehow. So if I all
of a sudden disappearance because I got swept up in.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
The wind, well hopefully that will not be the case.
But when they're very happy to have you with us,
because today is going to be we aren't going to
be seeing spooky season now with the Nightmare before Christmas. This,
of course, came out in ninety three. It was directed
by Henry Selik based on a Timburton original story. The
spreenplay was by Caroline Thompson, while the score was by

(02:37):
Danny Elfman and Unestimate to point today's money adjusted for inflation,
this movie cost forty million dollars to make and made
two hundred and forty three million at the box office.
So getting to general impressions here, Heather, as you are
guests today, what are your general thoughts and impressions on
The Nightmare before Christmas?

Speaker 3 (02:57):
I mean, I kind of had a little influence over
Night's movie choice too, so you know I'm here and
happy for it. I am a huge Nightmare before Christmas fan,
huge huge. I cosplay as Jack Skellington. I permanently have
a Nightmare before Christmas tree in my room. And the
funnier part is I didn't see the movie when it

(03:19):
first came out. I saw it surrounding, you know, with
friends in college, and became addicted. And I notice, and
I watch it pretty frequently, but I noticed that every
time I watch it, I pick up on something totally different.
A line appeals more to me than it does in

(03:41):
the past. I find myself watching a different character following
their journey more. I'm a huge fan, and I think
that even as we get older, it's a movie that
kind of grows.

Speaker 6 (03:52):
Up with us.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
Definitely think it has quite the timeless quality to it
and a Keith. I know that you're a big fan
and all this style of animation. So what did you
make of as a movie.

Speaker 5 (04:05):
So unlike Heather, I'm a real fan. I saw it
when it came out. I didn't wait like forever, and
I was pretty young.

Speaker 6 (04:13):
When the movie came out.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
Old man, wow, wow, next to tell me you know,
you know, back in my day. So I've owned it
literally since it came out, and I didn't see it
in the theaters, but I've honed it and I still
have a copy that's from like whatever it's. I like claymation,
I like stop motion. It's one of my favorite styles

(04:34):
of film. Just sh I have full on animation. It's
a fun watch. I rewatched it last night. We watch
it every year. This is one of those movies that
has burned into my subconscious and I couldn't forget it
if I tried. I'm gonna be eighty five in a
retirement home just screaming Jack Jack. Just people are gonna
be thinking I'm crazy nuts, I mean crazy er. But

(04:58):
it's a fun watch. As Heather said, it grows up
with you, and it's one of those things that as
you get older, your perspectives change. So you watch this
movie when we're all younger and ink, I'm gonna say innocent,
but you know, Heather's never been there. When you're more
young and innocent into the world, you're like, oh, this
is one thing. And then now we're all old, crutchty

(05:20):
adults and you're like, Jack's an asshole, and then you
just kind of go from there. So it's fun.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Definitely is fun.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
I'm sure there'll be a lot to talk about today.
I mean, this isn't just a movie. It very much
is a mood.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
It's a world, and it's a strange little miracle.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
I think that shouldn't work as well as it does,
because on paper, it sounds like total chaos, a Halloween
tale hijacking Christmas, told entirely through stop motion animation.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Set to a Gothic musical score.

Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yet somehow every piece fits perfectly into a hauntingly beautiful hole.
I think what makes the movie so striking is, in fact,
it's visual personality. Because you have every crooked bill, every
stitched up creature, and every flicker of candlight candlelight feels alive.
And I think the stop motion animation, directed masterfully by

(06:08):
Henry Selik gives the film a tactile magic and that
CGI can never touch. It's creepy and it's beautiful at
the same time, very much like a storybook drawn in
inco and bone. And then you've got the score. I mean,
Danny ties everything together. His songs are the film's heartbeat.
I think, from the chaotic joy of something like this
is Halloween to Jack's yearning of jacks lament and the

(06:31):
wide eyed wonder of what's this.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
The music, I think doesn't.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Just decorate the story. It is the story, carrying Jack's
emotions more vividly than dialogue ever could.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
I think also beneath the skeletons and the snowflakes, there's
something very human. It's so much a story about purpose
and self discovery. And you know, you get Jack's obsession
with reinventing himself, his disappointment when it goes wrong, and
his eventual acceptance of who he is. And that's I
think what makes the movie timeless, as I said earlier,
because this isn't just for Halloween or for Christmas. It's

(07:02):
I think for anyone who's ever felt restless in their
own skin, anyone who's maybe tried to change themselves to
fit a new world, only to realize that what they
had was special all along. Very harmarchy of me, I know,
but that's the way I feel. So I guess let's
kick off with our characters on the board. Starting with
our two leads in this film, we have Chris Sarandon

(07:24):
and Darry Danny Elfman as Jack Skennington and Catherine O'Hara
as Sally so Keith. Starting with you. Your thoughts on Jack,
aren't Sally.

Speaker 5 (07:33):
I mean I kind of showed my hand a little bit.
You know, Jack's a super villain. We're just gonna call
it as it is. I mean, no, like nice guys like, hey,
you know what I want to do. I want to
invade another world, kidnap their leader, and then just go
ruin their day. Like that's like if you boil it
down to the most, Like he knows ruining everybody's day. Yes,

(07:54):
we know that.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
You know.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
He goes effectively. This is what I was talking about,
Like when you as you age, you notice different perspectives.
We have no idea in terms of how long Jack
has been doing this so effectively. He's having a midlife
crisis and he goes on a wander and he's trying
to do a whole career change, and he's like, hey,

(08:15):
I found the whovil over here, Let's see what's going on.
And he just does a little B and e, a
little light you know, harassment, theft, like just shy of
like killing somebody. He's just broken all the laws right there.
And he's like he comes back and goes, look, we're
gonna go in another dimension. We're gonna kidnap their guy

(08:39):
and I'm gonna replace him, and it's gonna be amazing.
We're gonna quoe unquote upgrade stuff. And they make it
worse by every streategy of the imagination and it just again,
it's fun as a child, but as an adult you
start to notice, like the this is really messed up
kind of logic behind it is. It's still fun to watch.
One hundred percent is singing great. Yes, the music that everything,

(09:04):
it's fun to watch, But like the nitty gritty when
it comes down to it, he's a butt. Heead he's
a super villain, and Santa Claus is a hero because
Santa Claus has to literally save Christmas, and I mean
that's the definition of a hero. I don't know what
is so you know, this is all told by the
uh super villain perspective. Sally's fun because she's trying to

(09:27):
be the voice of reason. She's the Jimminy cricket of
the group and she's like, no, don't do this, and
we're not going to explain why she has some like
weird esp abilities where she picked up that flower turned
into crange tree rather and just burst into flames. Like
it's so you're not.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
A massive fan that's read the cannon.

Speaker 6 (09:46):
And all the other stuff. Note we'll talk about that later.

Speaker 5 (09:49):
Yeah, no, no, no, we're just going based on the
video and you know, the movie itself because they had
to go back and wreck Connall's crap like you know,
so again, uh, we're just not gonna talk about that now.
And yes, they had to go put out a whole
book for her to explain stuff because there are so
many questions left unanswered that should have gotten a sequel
and that would have explained a lot of this stuff.

(10:11):
But you know, I digress. I wish there was a
little bit more of her in the movie. Yes, she
does play a pivotal part where she tries to dissuay
everybody with the fog and then try to convince everybody,
and she's like, hey, look, I've told you guys, we
have this thing not to do this, and it's evil

(10:31):
in bed and they all just kind of brushed her off.
So it is what it is, and you know, thankfully
she I will say that it was great when she
ripped herself apart and had her hands doing one thing,
her leg doing another thing with Ugie. But I just
wish we had a little bit more of her, and
hopefully they someday before Tim Burton passes away, we get

(10:54):
a sequel with her.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
And I think to your point that Keith, it's interesting
is everybody associates this with Tim Burton, even though it's
only based on the story he wrote and everything. I
don't think Henry Selick gets enough credit for what this
movie is. But I mean I think also, you know,
marketing it as Tim Burton's Night MEMB before Christmas, of course,
I'm sure help this movie a lot because people like,
who the hell is Henry Selick? So I think I

(11:20):
just went.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
To brother exactly.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
But at the same time, I just thought to myself,
you know, I think the guy deserves the recognition because
you know, the things you mentioned, are very much sure.
The reason why this movie is so good is because
of what Henry did when it came to the the animation,
the stop motion and stuff and passing this over then
to you then, Heather, what did you make of Jack
and Sally?

Speaker 6 (11:42):
So shocking? I'm gonna disagree with Keith. So I love
who would have guessed? Would funk?

Speaker 3 (11:50):
I love Jack like and I can see where he
could be like you know, villain as, but it's all
he knows.

Speaker 5 (12:00):
Would be invading Christmas Land.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
And I mean, he's this like Deity, He's the Pumpkin King.
I was very fortunate that years and years ago at
the Museum of Modern Art, New York, a security guard
let me and my friend Shauna in before the exhibit
closed to see all of the original artwork and a
lot of it stop motion animation pieces and the original

(12:24):
poem and the Pumpkin like so many cool things.

Speaker 6 (12:27):
So I love Jack. Yes, Jack is a total a hole.
He is tired.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
He's like what Nika said earlier, he's like uncomfortable in
his own skin.

Speaker 6 (12:39):
He is having this.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
Realization and what I call it a midlife crisis because
he's ageless. But he's and we can have these feelings
in any age or any part of our life where
we're feeling trapped in our own bodies and net we're
meant to do more. And I don't think that. Well,
clearly Jack doesn't know the right way to do it,
but he stumbles upon the doors in the trees, and

(13:04):
I still want to see what's behind the other doors,
including Dreamland, which is where Sally is from, which.

Speaker 6 (13:10):
Explains all of the other interesting things that Sally can do.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
But I am not a huge fan of Sally, and
I don't know why. It's just she's always kind of
driven me nuts and I wish they had developed her
character more. And when you think about a lot of
people associate Jack and Sally as being this like couple
and they never get together. They're just saying, I'm going
to stand by your side. I want to stand here

(13:36):
and support you, my friend, and I appreciate that. But
she has been this like Jiminy Cricket, where she has
kind of gone along and said like, oh, let's not
do this, but really not speaking her voice and saying like,
hey Jack, this is why we don't do this. You know,
doctor Finkelstein, you suck like there's a lot of things

(13:58):
that I think she could have spoken more for, and
it's a little frustrating, but we're also forgetting, you know,
they have zero to kind of go between them, So
I love Jack can't necessarily stand Sally. I wish they
would have developed her character more. But I think that

(14:20):
he is a great leading man despite that he might
have villainous tendencies.

Speaker 6 (14:24):
I think it's all that he knows, and that is.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Totally a totally fair point.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
I mean when it comes to the way I well,
when I rewatched this for my medianth watch, I found
a lot of a lot of curious things that's sort
of stuck out to me as I was writing up
my notes in.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
A crazy fever.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
What is fascinating about Jack to me is that he's
not a villaura hero in the traditional sense. He's very
much a dreamer, and I guess, like most of us dreamers,
he's very ambitious, he's restless, and he's flawed. And I
think his obsession with Christmas isn't about power or greed.
It's about purpose. As I mean earlier, I think he's
searching for meaning in a life that feels repetitive, even

(15:04):
though he's adored by everyone around him, and that I
think makes him deeply relatable because beneath the skeleton grin
and grand theatrics, he's just trying to figure out, like
a lot of us, who he is. His failure, as
in hijacking Christmas and causing chaos, isn't really about ruining
a holiday, at least to me. It's about the danger

(15:24):
of trying to be something you're not, whileas Sally, on
the other hand, is very much to me the quiet
heart of the film. While Jack chases big dreams, she's
grounded in empathy and intuition. She sees the disaster coming
long before anyone else does, but she's too overlooked and
too stitched together no pun intended for people to listen to.

(15:46):
There is, I think, a quiet tragedy in that, but
there's also strength because her care for Jack isn't just
romantic to your point, Heather, It's rooted in understanding, because
I think she sees the good in him even when
he's lost sight of it himself. And that way they
very much balance each other because you've got Jack's restless
ambition and Sally's cautious compassion, and by the end their

(16:07):
connection feels very much earned. It's not a loud or
dramatic love story. It's I think, very gentle and inevitable
because you have these two misfits finding comfort in someone
who truly sees them so in a film full of
wild imagination and chaos, their relationship I think gives the
movie its soul, and they remind us. I think that

(16:27):
in a world of real monsters and mayhem, the most
human thing of all is wont to be understood like
most monsters, I guess when it comes to certain cases.
So let's get to two other significant characters. We have
William Hickey as Doctor Fink Wilstein and Glenn Shaddix as
the Mayor. So, Heather, let's begin with you your thoughts on

(16:49):
our good doctor and the Mayor of Halloween toew.

Speaker 6 (16:52):
I could really make this like five minutes. They are
not my favorite characters.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
The Mayor is I like the multiple personalities, bipolar disorder,
like there's if you go really deep into the psychology
of this movie, there is a lot to unpack.

Speaker 6 (17:13):
He's fine, he just drives.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Me absolutely nuts. I don't really think he drives a
movie forward or the storyline forward.

Speaker 6 (17:19):
He's just kind of there. But if you're going to
be the.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
Mayor and you've got the Pumpkin King who really reigns
Halloween Town.

Speaker 6 (17:26):
There literally the mayor is looking at Jack.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
For everything, and Jack just like, okay, mister Mary, Kay, thanks, kaybye.
He's not a necessary character. Is he a cool looking character? Absolutely?

Speaker 6 (17:41):
Doctor Finkelstein.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
I can't stand him. He literally kidnaps Sally. He's not
a nice guy. He might be like this mad, evil
scientist genius guy.

Speaker 6 (17:50):
But also, and when we get to.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Okay, I'll talk even more about it, there's not a
whole lot. I feel like there's so many other cool
creatures and Halloween Town that could have helped Jack do
the things that they were able to do. Maybe minus
the flying reindeer skeletons, I don't know. But I also
don't like the way he treads Sally, even though Sally

(18:14):
is not my favorite character. We really are getting started off,
and like the things I don't like about this movie,
they aren't characters that really drive anything except to show
a little bit more of Sally's independent story and how
much the town relies on Jack.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
I think that though you bring up some great points,
you know kept it. You show up, but sweet but
I think you made some great points there and the Keith,
What did you make of.

Speaker 5 (18:38):
These two characters? As I'm going to unfortunately agree with
Heather a little bit. I know it's crazy. It happen sometimes,
the mayor Halloween miracle, it's crazy time. Somebody called Ripley's.
I don't believe it. With the Mayor, it's one of
those things. I'm with Heather. He is just the most

(18:59):
useless character the face of the planet, much like most politicians. Uh,
he's just there to you said it, I said nothing.
He's just there to like direct traffic effectively, Like he
just comes through, yell stuff and then keeps going. It's
Jack that makes all the decisions, makes all the everything,

(19:19):
and then he looks to Jack for all the adult supervision,
even though he technically is the mayor and should be
slightly competent. But he goes zero to sixty and I
say zero to sixty, he goes from zero to like
one thousand and two point five seconds. You see him
one second, He's like, Okay, how's it going, and blah
blah blah blah, and all of a sudden, it's like.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
The scar's falling.

Speaker 5 (19:40):
The Scar's fault and you're like, dude, calm down. Jack's
just locked in his room for like an hour. It'll
be okay, calm it down.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
So it's just a taxman style.

Speaker 5 (19:52):
It's called you know, bipolar disorder, but whatever, yes, both, yeah,
a little of everything. So so I mean I get it.
He is there to kind of borderline be comedy relief
and also to keep the story moving, especially the scene
where Jack gets shot down. He's immediately telling everybody that

(20:14):
Jack is no longer with us. He is, you know, deceased,
even though technically Jack says in the beginning of the
movie that he's he's dead and he takes head off.
So how do you kill a dead guy? I don't know,
but that that is the bit of information that Oogie
Boogie needs to go torture Santa Claus some more and

(20:35):
Sally and the rest of the gang. So he's making
his moves based on that information. The he's yelled out
two seconds prior, which who knows how it actually got
him down in the cave, but that's a ranch for
a different day. And the crazy mad scientist aka doctor Frankenstein,

(20:55):
because Sally is all stitched up and effectively a monster
esque character or the bride of said Frankenstein. I know
that's not what she's supposed to be, but that was
literally the first thing that popped into my head seeing
all the stitches and everything. He's okay, I'm again with Heather.
He is not needed, and he is a complete ass.

(21:19):
He theoretically made her, is holding her against her will.
He's holding her against her will. Yes, she has poisoned
him many times, but clearly he's gotten over it because
he is back again. And the fact that he keeps
doing this over and over again to her and thinking

(21:39):
something's going to change, even though he should have learned
by now, is the definition of insanity literally. And he
finally takes it upon himself to create a different bride
to suit his needs, which you see at the very
end is effectively just a female version of himself, which.

Speaker 6 (21:57):
Is his daughter. But we won't go there.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
I mean, you know, if you want to split hair
he has. Yeah, see this is I wouldn't necessarily call
her his daughter because he's using half of his brain.
It's more of like Loki in a variant kind of
situation where it's technically.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
I'm saying Sally is his daughter. Oh that's what she
believes is that she is his daughter.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
That that makes it much creepier and so much Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Well, yeah, I mean, if you go into the canon
of it, he kidnapped her from Dreamland, she's a rag doll,
and he kidnapped her when she was about twelve and
brought her to Halloween Town and wiped her memory and
has kind of installed his memories that he created her
essentially as his daughter and to.

Speaker 6 (22:50):
Be his lab assistant.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
So she's constantly trying to get out because she feels
something is not right.

Speaker 6 (22:57):
Fascinating story that I wish they would have done more with.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
You mean the book that came out after the fact
that one. Is that what you're saying, but like years later,
Yeah right, it's way the fun after the fact, Like
way the hell after the fact they went back and
red stuff. Yeah, no, we're talking about this moment in time, not.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
I never got the vibe that he thought he was
she was his bride.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
But I understand, I see, I never got the vibe
that she thought she was his daughter. I just it
was more like that whole captor kind of situation. So
the fact that they had to come back and make
it even so much darker and so much worse than
it really was. Taking it faced value, and yes, I

(23:44):
get it, they wanted to expand on her origin a
little bit more and just make him much much worse.
So everybody in Halloween Town is again a super villain
and Jack is just the king of the supervillains.

Speaker 6 (23:56):
Okay, Zero is not a super villain.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
No, he gets got right over by a car driven
by a supervillain, probably knowing Timberton in this universe, I.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Could spend a whole hour talking about Zero.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
Well, I do think that had we had all that,
you probably would have had the probably the movie would
not maybe have been as successful, would have been accessible
to all ages. I think that was also a reason
why maybe they later came out with the darker things,
because if you want to bring your kids to this,
you probably don't want to have that kind of story
going on. So, at least that's my opinion, I think
is prob why they kept it more family friendly to

(24:33):
where you could watch this with you I could watch
this with my five year old niece and she can
still get something out of it. But if you gave
all that thing, you might be like, oh, what was
going on here? But when it came to these two characters.
I mean, I think they're among the memorable side characters
in the movie, not just for their bizarre designs, but
for what they review about the world that Jack lives in,
the kind of.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Leader that he is. I agree with you, Keith.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yes, doctor fink Wlstein is the archetype or mad scientist,
but the film gives him a strange sort of athos.
If you just take the movie at face value.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
He's brilliant. He's reclusive, but.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
Very possessive, especially of Sally, his stitch together creation. As
far as we know from this movie, his need for control,
I found is comic and creepy, and when she outgrows him,
his reaction isn't just irritation. I think it's fear because
he can't stand the idea of something he made having
its own will. It very much reminds me of four

(25:29):
things when it comes to that concept, and in a
way he mirrors Jack's flaw. Both want to play creator.
The difference, I think is that Finkelstein's failure is small
and personal, while Jack's is large and public, and by
the film's end, the doctor, I think, replaces Sally, like
you mentioned, Keith, with a new companion. He literally builds

(25:50):
to share his brain, which is funny and darkly telling
because I think he wants connection but only on his terms,
whereas the mayor, I totally agree. Is a perfect bit
of satire, beating the rotating head to the one smiling,
the other frowning, and I think it captures his defining
trait dependence, because he's definitely.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
I agree with you both. He's not a leader.

Speaker 4 (26:14):
He's more of a follower who needs someone to tell
him what to do, because without Jack he's completely helpless,
and his constant anxiety, we remember that quote, I'm only
an elected official. I can't make decisions by myself makes
him incredibly pitiful and hilarious, and I think he embodies
the kind of authority that looks official but has no

(26:34):
real power. He's literally a puppet politician in a town
that runs on theatrics. Make of that what you will,
and together, I think they help round out Halloween Town's
social landscape because they show us that even in this
world of crazy creatures in human flaws, you know you
have control. You've got insecurity and fear of irrelevance, they
still drive behavior.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
They're not evil.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
I think they're just stuck in their own little loops
like everyone else in this world that mistakes routine for purpose.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
So I thoroughly enjoyed them.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
So getting to a character, one character of you, that's
Heather rightfully brought up that we should talk about. Let's
get to the ruler of Christmas Town. We have ed
Ivory as Santa Claus or Sandy Clause. So Keith, starting
with you, your thoughts on Santa.

Speaker 5 (27:26):
I mean, again, he's a superhero, he's the good guy.
I liked it so much to unpacked with Santa.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
I know this is why I thought Nick and said,
we need to talk about Santa Claus.

Speaker 5 (27:39):
Well, it's a problem you look at it this way.
So Santa was kidnapped, but again Santa has powers or
magic and all this other stuff.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Because get kidnapped.

Speaker 5 (27:51):
Right, I think there's a certain level of like, let's
see where this is gonna go. And then he could
break out at some point because he had access, his
hands were readily available. He could have just done a little,
you know, nosebop thing, and he could have taken off
and gone home at any point. It was just when
he got captured or given to Oggy Boogie and was

(28:13):
more restrained that he lost his powers and abilities. But
it's like, all right, he was just kind of like,
I think what he was trying to do was talk
him off the ledge as it were, and trying to
persuade him because again, he's Santa, He's pure goodness, Like
if Santa can't do it, nobody can. And then he

(28:34):
just he keeps going and going. But again, you would
have thought at some point he would have, I don't know,
tried to break loose. I guess he since he was
not used to this, he didn't really know where this
was going, and he was kind of like, let's see
where it goes. And then once Sally comes and saves him,
it kind of all finally clicks in the place because

(28:54):
she's like, oh no, he's a bad dude. He's gonna
do some wild crap here and we don't want to
stick around for and he's like, oh okay. Like at
that point he's like, oh, this is really a bad thing.
Like what did you think it was gonna be? Like
y'all were gonna have cookies and crap and you're just
gonna deuces him out and like go save Christmas. So
you know, it's his wonderful ignorance to the other worlds

(29:19):
because again, he is just familiar with his bubble and
he is happy and content because he's probably diabetic from
all those cookies that the kids give him every Christmas
and he's just riding that sugar rush. He is a
sure addict. He likes that, you know, craziness, but when
he gets taken out of his element, he just doesn't

(29:40):
know what to do with himself. So it's just like
any of us to a certain extent that if you
take us out of our familiar environments, we just kind
of like go with the flow until it's almost too
late in some cases. And without Jack and Sally, he
probably would have been, I don't know, turned to a
Santa blank It or something.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
A Santa blankets. I like that one.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
And Heather.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
Exactly, and Heather, your thoughts will not Big Red lobster Man.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
Big Red lobster Man, first off, thank you for adding
Santa Claus and the other part of the topic.

Speaker 6 (30:20):
Well, you have to have a good guy.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
But I really do truthfully think that Santa let himself
get kidnapped, or not necessarily get kidnapped, once he figured
out what was going on, like if you look at
lockshock and barrel, which we can get to in a minute,
but you know he's looking at Wait, these aren't the
elves that I have in my village. I'm not the
all powerful being here. He also probably had no clue,

(30:44):
just like Jack had no clue that these other lands existed.
So he's kind of like what keeps saying, he is
kind of like riding through this, but very much at
any point could have escaped very clearly as proven literally
as he's like, Okay, I'm gonna go save Christmas.

Speaker 6 (31:01):
Now I'm Santa. I can do anything.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Nos thing poof up into the air and through the
imaginary ceiling.

Speaker 6 (31:09):
But he is clever.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
I think he was trying to get a little bit
of a break, just like Jack's trying.

Speaker 6 (31:14):
To get a little bit of a break.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
But again, these characters and these these roles, if they have,
this is all they know. So this is a whole
new world for them. His interaction with Ogi is really
fun again, getting to that later, it's so hard to
like restrain from Yeah, anyways, uh what everyone giving me?

(31:41):
Yes we know either way, know, But I do think
that Santa could be considered a hero if you want
to say save Christmas.

Speaker 6 (31:50):
Me personally, if.

Speaker 5 (31:54):
The hero that could be.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
If I got a scary Teddy and a zombie Duck,
I would be okay with that.

Speaker 6 (32:00):
That's cool, all these kids are not.

Speaker 5 (32:04):
The d was literally trilatized that. That's kay with the
shrunken head. He's going to therapy for the rest of
his life. You're gonna find out he's a serial killer
or something.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
You know who plays Santa Boy, the kid that talks
to Santa, the kid that played Andy from Toy Story.

Speaker 5 (32:21):
Yeah, so that kid's traumatized forever.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
But I can see Santa can be considered in a
traditional sense a hero. But don't if you guys cannot
see that, Keith is like convulsing. He can be considered
a hero when it comes to the villains and heroes
of it all. I just think that everybody is learning
a little bit more about themselves through this entire ordeal.

(32:49):
I think Santa is adorable.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
I guess we can call waiting that.

Speaker 4 (32:56):
I suppose, but I I when it came to this character,
I definitely put my thinking cap on as the burning
the Midnight oil and.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Is like, what do they make of this character?

Speaker 4 (33:07):
And I think Heather made a great point in wanting
to talk about him because he is he does serve
an important role because he is the moral scent and
the emotional grounding.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Of the story.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
And even though he appears only briefly, his presence I
think very much carries weight and he does represent genuine
understanding of joy and generosity very much, acting as a
counterbalance to Jack's naive ambition and the macabre creativity of
Halloween Town, and his defining trait, I think is authenticity
because he doesn't just hand out presents. He very much

(33:38):
embodies the spirit of giving in kindness that should define Christmas.
And when Jack tries to imitate him, the contrast is
even clearer. Because he Jack only sees the surface. He
sees the lights, he sees the decorations, he sees the spectacle. Santo,
on the other hand, understands the deeper meaning because he's
been at it longer.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
The empathy and the.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
Connection that come from bringing joy to others, and his
calm confidence, I think, when confronted with danger, like you
guys pointed out in his refusal to give up on
Christmas even after being kidnapped, show that his strength lies
in character and not in power. He's not necessarily the
villain of Halloween Town's chaos, but he's its unintended casualty.

(34:19):
I think because you've got Jack's admiration of for Christmas,
which leads him to overstep his bounds, believing he can
improve the holiday, where Santa's subduction by Lockshock and Barrel
is very symbolic of cultural appropriation gone wrong, because Halloween
Town tries to see something it doesn't truly understand, and
I think through Santa's suffering, the story exposes the danger

(34:41):
of mistaking imitation for appreciation. How many times have we
seen that happen in human history? And unlike I think
many sugary depictions of Santa, this version isn't endlessly patient
or jolly, because he's stern when he needs to be,
because he scolds Jack for nearly ruining Christmas. Yet he
doesn't angry because once he's freed, he immediately sets things right.

(35:03):
Like you guys said, he restores order, and he brings
snow to Halloween Town and even gives a touch of
warmth behind. So I think his actions reflect a balance
of forgiveness and authority, which I think suggests that true
goodness includes accountability as much as kindness. So in the end,
I don't think he just he doesn't just fix Christmas.
He restores balance between the two worlds because his final act,

(35:27):
as in sending snow to Halloween Town, symbolizes I think,
understanding rather than division. Lord knows we need a lot
that these days, and he acknowledges Jack's good intentions, rewarding
the curiosity without condoning chaos. So I think his grace
under pressure reminds Jack and the audience that the heart
of any celebration is sincerity, not spectacle. If we could

(35:50):
only learn that. So before we get to our big bad,
here's another trio that's Heather rightfully brought up we should
talk about. Let's get to the hen Jogie Boogies. He
We have Paul Rubins as Locke, Catherine O'Hara as Shock,
and Danny Elfman as Barrel. So Heather, starting with you
your thoughts on now are three trickle treats.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Hey, I have me nuts and I love them for it,
But I also when the movie first came out and
I first started watching it, I could not stand them.
But they are truly like playing both sides of the
field here, like yeah, Jack, we love you Jack.

Speaker 6 (36:26):
Whatever you want to say. Jack.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Oh, well, we'll bring Santa to Ugie because there's no
place better than and more comfortable an Ugie. And that's
what Jack said, is we can make Santa comfortable, you know,
blah blah. So they're very much henchmen on both sides.
They're kind of like the Halloween Town Mob. I love
their individual stories and that was free any additional book,

(36:50):
like how they age got two, Halloween Town.

Speaker 6 (36:53):
The trigger Treating.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
I love that you have Frickin' pee Wee Herman, like,
come on, once you realize who it is, you can
hear the voices and Katherinehara and Dannie Alfman, we're pulling
double duty and it's really interesting. But there's so much
more that can be said.

Speaker 6 (37:12):
They're so.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
They're complex characters, like how do you?

Speaker 6 (37:18):
How do you do that?

Speaker 3 (37:20):
I feel like I'm missing another actress's name right now.

Speaker 6 (37:23):
And I'm gonna be looking it up. Hold on a second,
but how how do you? How do you exist?

Speaker 3 (37:31):
In Halloween Ton they're clearly the only like children, but
also are they actually children or these.

Speaker 6 (37:37):
You know, deities of sorts. It's really fascinating.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
I love them they drive me Nut's what else can
I say about them? I think that they are the
moving vehicle behind everything throughout Halloween Ton. I literally just
had caffeine for the first time in two weeks. My
mind is fuloating, so I'm gonna start rambling, and looking
at Nick's face is making it much better. But they're
the catalyst behind a lot of stuff, and we wouldn't

(38:03):
have the introduction a gie. But I want to know
how they've found themselves in this hierarchy of Halloween Town,
and how did they become the reliable ones.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
I mean, as I said, I guess the mad mind
of Tim Burton, I suppose, and then he said it's
a magic. I guess maybe Keith has the answer for
is Keith your thought? So now on our three Keith
or Imps or whatever we want to call them.

Speaker 5 (38:32):
Me and my useless information. Uh well, I think the
reason why Jack used those three is because he tasked
everybody else with something to do. And if you look
at certain characters like the vampires, they probably couldn't go
to Christmas Town because they would burst into flames. The
Warewolf theoretically probably would have had an easier time and

(38:54):
would have made more sense because he could just sniff
out Santa. He has wolf esque powers in a bit,
so that would have been my first choice. But what
do I know. Uh, the fact that he relies so
heavily on these three and he knows who these three
work for, and he's like, okay, you got tuth one

(39:14):
and like exactly and doesn't think they're going to double
cross him is like wild because they immediately stick their
hand behind their back and they cross their fingers, which
to little kids that's funny as hell is to adults,
you're just like, you're an idiot. So and the fact
that he's like, okay, don't and he towers over them,
so you're telling me he did not notice their hands

(39:36):
behind their back crossing their fingers, and then they go,
you know, off and onto their own little adventure. And
the fact that he gives very specific, id you know steps,
like okay, this is the tree, this is where you go,
this is what you do. And they come back with
a bunny, which means they were probably terrorizing other universes.

(39:57):
We just don't know because we only have the Giant
Bunny and Santa. But they were gone for a period
of time, and I think it's like a month or so,
which means they were probably dimension jumping and just effing
around with everybody. So you would imagine they probably wanted to.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Tell you they were crossing the universities.

Speaker 5 (40:20):
Right, and you'd think with the magic Wish bowl they had,
you know, with the cauldron while they were watching Jack
do Christmas napalm, they would have watched somebody would have
checked up on the kids to make sure they weren't
effing around and doing dumb shit. But no, nobody needs
adult supervision in that universe. And then when they finally
come back and they you know, they get them the

(40:40):
first quote unquote first attempt, because again we don't know
how long they were gone, they bring back the Easter
Bunny and they probably did that.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
They found that, they found the doors because they very
specifically said we went here in Jack's like, that's the
wrong door you went through, clearly, So they just were
kind of playing.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
Around, right, Well, they had to give him something or
else he would have been like, what the f You've
been doing for this long? And they've all been.

Speaker 6 (41:02):
Looking, you know, been to catch Santa, all right.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
They caught I mean, you go to Leprechaun town. They
probably are all drunk and hungover, so that would have
been too easy.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
The fact that they catch the Easter.

Speaker 5 (41:16):
Bunny out of all the other deities is kind of
funny because, like Heather said, it's the Easter Bunny. He
is fast, he's giant, he's a giant rabbit. They can
probably run who knows, half assed, and these three idiots
caught him. It them whatever. And then they come back
eventually with Santa, and they're like, okay, take care of them.
And then again, don't check up on them, because what

(41:37):
could go wrong? Even though they're Ugie Boogi's hench idiots,
and what do they do? They give Santa to ogie
boogie almost immediately, and while they're still prepping Christmas crap. Again,
nobody checks on him ever, Like I am surprised they
haven't burned down all the towns at this point because
they are just little mischievous idiots. Uh. And then it's

(42:02):
when Jack goes and confronts Ougie and Gang. They're like, oh,
we're sorry, we didn't mean it, Like dude, I'm gonna
throw you in a trash compactor, Like of course you
meant it. You need to banish to someplace else. So
it's just they were satiric plot devices to keep this
story going. And as Heather mentions, when you realize who

(42:25):
does these voices, you can't unhear them, like I see
pee Wee Herman now on the screen talking, because when
I was a kid, I didn't realize that, and then
as an adult I started to notice it, and then
I really I looked at the Casmin well crap. That's
why I keep thinking pee Wee Herman because it literally
is him. So once you know who some of these
actors are, you can't not see their face and it's

(42:47):
just like you see what's their face from as Beetlejuice's character,
not as Sally, and it's like it just messes with
your brain. Are are they fun? Sure? Again? They are?
As mentioned, they're like one of four kids in the
universe because there's the heavy set Care with his eyes
to shut the bat thing and these three kids, so

(43:08):
there's like five of them. I don't know who else
are torturing because they keep talking about how like Halloween,
you know, was the greatest, better than last year. Who
are they scaring because you only see these monsters.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
That's a great point and also a great point that
you bring up Keith, and also we had brought up
as well. Is when it comes to the cast in
this film. Clearly, as I mentioned before, Tim was the
executive producer on this was based on his story, so
clearly he pulled some strings because he's clearly very loyal
to act as he's worked within the past and in
the future from Beetle Juice to pe Pee's Big Adventure

(43:45):
and what have you. So clearly it's a it's a
loyalty towards your actors. We came to these three. They're
very much the mischievous trickle treating trio, and they're small
characters with a big impact because I think they are
the embodiment of Halloween Town's childish chaos. They're loyal enough
to serve Ogiboggie, but they're reckless enough to kidnap Santa

(44:07):
and gleefully unaware of the damage they cause. They I
think the bridge between playful mischief and real danger because
they operate with the innocence of children playing a game,
but their games, of course, involve abduction and near murder.
And think that contrast gives them that darkly comedic edge
because they represent I think Halloween's Town instinct to turn

(44:29):
everything into a prank, even something as sacred as Christmas.
But unlike Ogi Bogie, who is purely cruel, I don't
think the trio is evil. They're just thoughtless. They follow orders,
they laugh at pain, and they crave approval from like
you guys mentioned authority figures like Ogie or Jack, and
in that sense, I think they reflected the danger of

(44:51):
blind loyalty because they don't question whether what they're doing
is right. They just want to impress the boss. Sound familiar,
they're you, and then they they used to show I
think how easily enthusiasm can slide into wrongdoing when it's
not guided by empathy or understanding. So yeah, on the surface,
they're comedic relief because they're always bickering. You have the
slapstick comedy and they're constantly undermining one another. But their

(45:14):
humor has very sharp edges and their childlike energy and
matching costumes like you brought up, Keith, you have a
devil witch in a skeleton. Hardly I think the innocence.

Speaker 5 (45:24):
Of real trickle treaters, and I.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
Think they're what happens when the spirit of Halloween loses
its moral boundaries.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
So they mirror Halloween Town.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
As a whole, because they're curious, they're creative, and they're
dangerously self absorbed. But they're clever enough to kidnap Santa Clause,
but too immature to understand the gravity of what they're doing.
Because I think they want to help Jack, yet their
instincts always tilt towards trouble and that way, they're not villains,
but I think they're symptoms of a world that values

(45:54):
mischief over meanings. So I almost consider them as the
dark children of Halloween Town because they're fun. They're funny,
but they're frightening all in one package. So yeah, they
remind us ofthing the mischief without understanding can become cruelty,
and even good intentions can get twisted when there's no
one to draw the line what happens when certain kids

(46:16):
are left unsupervised.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
There you go.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
So let's round off our characters with our villain. We
have a Ken page as Okie Boogie, So keith your
thoughts on Okay Boogie.

Speaker 5 (46:30):
I mean he's fine, He's okay, He's very predictable. I
will say, I like to singing, and he is everything
that I'm not gonna say. How it sounds like he's
everything that's wrong with Halloween Town. He is there for
the torture, the mayhem, and just the all things that

(46:50):
are bad. Again, what's the first thing he does when
he meets Santa. He starts torturing the guy, not like,
you know, anything fun or whatever. It's just like he
is straight up like, I'm going to torture you and
then murder you at some future point, and you're like, wow,
that went dark real fast, and it's he clearly knows

(47:12):
that Santa is not from this universe, but he just
automatically assumes like this is par for the course. This
is like the Adams Family meeting Santa. They would do
all this wild crap and then realize Santa's not game
for this and be like, who would have guessed you
don't like this weird crap that I do. And you're like, yes,

(47:32):
because we're not the Adams Family or you know, we're
not from Halloween Town. So this is clearly, you know,
some wild and crazy crap. And he is just thriving
on the torture of Santa Claus. He is enjoying it
to the umpking degree, and it's almost like he gets
off on this punishment of scaring the ever loving be

(47:52):
Jesus out of Santa. And you can tell it based
on all of his mannerisms, his singing, his everything. He
is just like way over over the moon, over all
this that he gets to do to Santa Claus. This again,
this deity from another dimension. And if it weren't for
Sally and Jack, Santa Claus probably would no longer be

(48:15):
on this realm of existence and there would literally be
no more Christmas in this other dimension, assuming you know
that was possible to end Santa's life. For all we
know is he could have tried to un alive Santa
and he just boomerangs back to Christmas Town. We'll never know,
not that any of us want to know. Let me

(48:36):
make that clear. He again has some great musical numbers,
but there's not a lot to the character. You don't
see any development as just I'm here to torture Santa,
sing a couple numbers and then Santa kills me, which
he technically does. Santa spoilers boys and girls. Santa kills

(48:56):
Oogie boogie.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
Bye bugs, my bugs.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yes, even better than I could ever do.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
And the heather your thoughts on our bug band covered
in the burlap.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
Sack right well, first and foremost, I love Ken Page.

Speaker 6 (49:17):
I'm a Broadway girl, arly, So when you have old.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Deuteronomy threatening Santa Claus and rolling snake eyes and trying
to figure out how to put him on his wheel
of unliving, I mean, come on.

Speaker 6 (49:30):
I had the absolute pleasure. And Nick, I think you
even know about this.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Several years ago at a comic cond here locally in Orlando,
it was Chris Sarandon and Ken Page for a panel,
and Ken sang.

Speaker 6 (49:45):
The entire Ookie Boogy song live. Now.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Was I a fan of Oogie before that? No? I
was very much like Keith and I was like, man,
he sings songs, he's got cold black plight stuff. He
is made of bugs. And then when I saw Ken
talk and you know, discuss Aggie and sing, I was like, Okay,

(50:10):
I don't hate Uggie anymore.

Speaker 6 (50:12):
If I wasn't sitting in the dark, I would show you.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
I have like multiple uggy Bogie like lounge Fly, I
have a cool jersey.

Speaker 6 (50:21):
Is he a villain?

Speaker 3 (50:24):
No, he literally is just doing what he is supposed
to be doing again, the roles of Halloween Town.

Speaker 6 (50:30):
This is all he knows. He's got to eat somehow.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yes, we find out he's a burlap sack filled with bugs.
Do you know what he was originally supposed to be?
He was originally supposed to be doctor Finkelstein. That was
literally part of the original storyline. It was going to
be the big reveal, and then it became too confusing
in test markets. So it's fascinating to me. Does it

(50:56):
do much for the storyline?

Speaker 6 (50:58):
No?

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Is it fun to watch how Sally detaches her leg
like Keith's talking about earlier, her hands and her legs
and her things and stuff. Yeah, it's fun.

Speaker 6 (51:08):
Would Sam to have gotten out of that?

Speaker 3 (51:11):
I think Santa liked it a little bit too much,
to be very honest with you, a little bit.

Speaker 6 (51:19):
I really think so.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
No, But I truly feel like he was like, what
is happening here?

Speaker 6 (51:24):
Who is this agey bogie?

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Why are there? Like I'm in the middle of a casino?
What happened here? And I think he was just trying
to figure it out.

Speaker 6 (51:35):
He could have easily escaped at any point, but.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
He lets Sally have that development of you are capable
of protecting and saving someone, to kind of give her
the confidence to then push through to really take over
trying to make sure that Jack was okay as well,
So it was developmental in that aspect. He's just a
fun character and now I love him so.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
And I'm glad that upon a time, once.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
Upon a time, there was this burlap sack full of thugs.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Wow, but I'm glad you love him now. But to
piggyback off that thought there, Heather, I agree, he's not
necessarily a villain, but I think he's the closest thing
we have to a villain, or rather an antagonist, and
he's a fascinating one because I think he very much
represents everything that Jack isn't, because where Jack is driven
by curiosity and creativity, Ugie is driven by appetite and chaos,

(52:34):
because he is the part of Halloween Town that feeds
on fear for pleasure and not for art, as we
even see in the early song of This Is Halloween
where he introduces himself and visually musically.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
He is pure excess, his layer.

Speaker 4 (52:48):
To your point, Heather's this neon, casino like underworld, and
it feels very different and very disconnected from the rest
of Halloween Town's more eerie charm because it's very grimy,
it's loud and it's full of motion, which I think
matches his personality perfectly because he's nothing is subtle stylish
about this guy. He's very indulgent, and I think the

(53:10):
Ogie Boogie song captures that perfectly because you have that jazzy,
sleazy and full of swagger.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
So yes, he is very much like.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
A Vegas showman turned almost sadistic gambler, delighting in the
suffering of others just because he can. But as we
mentioned underneath that burlap sack, Ogie is literally made of bugs,
this writhing, massive little creatures, almost pretending to be one
big monster. And I think that's not just a great
visual gag. Once again, it's very symbolic because his evil

(53:40):
isn't deep, it's very hollow, and just like the bugs,
it's crawling with much smaller impulses. And I think he's
he's greed and cruelty, bundled together with no purpose and
no soul. And I think he is that embodiment of
Halloween and its worst, the kind of darkness that's all
about appetite, no art, and narratively, he serves an important

(54:03):
function because I think he's what Jack could become if
his desire for control went unchecked very much a being
who takes over for his own amusement. Yeah, thank you,
And I appreciate that because I don't think he because
he doesn't care what or what or who he destroys,
and by defeating Ugie, I think Jack rejects that path.

(54:27):
So it's not just about saving Santa Claus. It's about
reclaiming the true spirit of what makes Halloween Town special.
Halloween Town is about creativity over cruelty, It's about wonder
over wickedness. So I think while Ugie might not have
the same depth to Keith's point as Jack will Sally,
I think he's essential because he is literally the shadow

(54:49):
that defines the light, that chaotic, sleazy reminder that even
the world built on scares, there's still a difference between
passion and malice. I absolutely love the guy, and I
definitely envy you head of having met Ken in person
and in literally treating you to a live version of
the Yogi Booge song.

Speaker 6 (55:08):
I haven't recorded.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
I will find a way to send it to you
because I think I recorded the entire hour.

Speaker 6 (55:14):
And a half panel.

Speaker 5 (55:16):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Definitely definitely.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
If you can find it in your vaults, please share it.

Speaker 6 (55:21):
Done, done on its way.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
I appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (55:25):
So, guys, before we get to ratings, is there anything
else you would like to mention or talk about that
we might not have brought up or may have missed.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
I just want to give honorable mention to zero, and
I also want to give honorable mention to the Halloween
Town residence. Like. I love that they depicted each known
Halloween creature. You've got the vampires, You've got the clown
with the Darroway face, You've got the harle Gun demon,
which is the little snake.

Speaker 6 (55:56):
You know, it's also.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
The honoring of Free Nightmare before Christmas. Tim Burton, I
don't know if you even know that Jack Skillington appeared
in Beetlejuice. He was at the top of Beetlejuice's circus
tent had so it's very much like that intertwined story.

(56:18):
I love that there's so much fan cannon where okay,
well Jack was actually the guy from a Corpse Pride
and he died and he was Frank like Frank and
weeniy like. There's so many cool things to try to
tie the universes together. And I love that they paid
the homage to that, even when they were visiting, you know,

(56:40):
the children.

Speaker 6 (56:40):
I guess of Earth.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
We don't even know if it takes place on Earth,
because it's not very unusual.

Speaker 6 (56:45):
People were just.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Calling the cops that their kids toy came alive. So
I think it's I love that they paid homage to something,
respected it but didn't make it too cheesy in the
best way pop. But it's still dark and gothic and
kids can enjoy.

Speaker 6 (57:03):
It, and it's still massive. Fifteen minutes down the road.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
I can go over to Disney right now, and it
is the Nightmare before Christmas Central, and I may have
to go shopping after we're done with us, to go
buy some more stuff.

Speaker 6 (57:19):
And I want to ask you guys a question before
we go on to ratings.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Do you think that Nightmare before Christmas is a Halloween
movie or a Christmas movie?

Speaker 4 (57:29):
Nick, Well, I guess if you want me to answer
that one first, I think it's really a bit of both.
In the sense that we talked about the fact that
or other I brought up the fact that, yes, it
is presented as Tim Burton's Nightment before Christmas, and these
seem to very much be Tim's favorite seasons. And you
see that blends a lot in a lot of his films.

(57:49):
I think of Edward scissor Hands, I think of even
Beetle Juice, I think of Eve.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
When I was well.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
There's always this blend that he loves to mesh these
two very diverse holidays together.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
So to me, as I said earlier at the top
of this.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
Review, I think you can enjoy it at any time
because the message that it brings. But if I were
to categorize it, I think you can easily fall into
both because I think it very much just like our
world hopping, it embraces both holidays and respects them the
way they should be. You don't have that commercial, crass
nature that both holidays sadly tend to have these days.

(58:24):
I think that I think both that Catherine and Henry
did a great job with the storytelling, and you know
Tim's original story showing respect for such age long holidays.
So I think it's a bit of column A in
a little bit of columb I guess then I'll pass
the ball over to Keith, And Keith, is that what
do you think coming to head this's question? And if
there's anything else you would like to touch up on

(58:45):
that we didn't talk about.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
I mean, this turns into the die hard question. You know,
it's diehard a Christmas movie or just a regular movie.
And you're like, well, depends on how you look at it.
You know, they were technically having a Christmas party, so
it's a Christmas movie. Boy, we have no point in
time doing no one in December it was. It could
be before Christmas, it could be after Christmas. This is
its very subjective because if you're in Jack's universe, it's

(59:10):
a Halloween movie. But when Jack goes and f's up
the holiday in Christmas Town, it's a Christmas movie. So
it it plays both sides of the coin. It's both
a Halloween and a Christmas movie. That's why it's endeared
in so many people's hearts is because if you're a
wacko Halloween person like Heather, you're going to watch it
during Halloween time. But if you're a Christmas person, you

(59:34):
may more than likely watch it during Christmas time. It's
sort of like watching Doctor Seuss and you're like, well,
it's a Christmas movie, but it takes place before and
after Christmas. So I say, it's both the Christmas and a.

Speaker 6 (59:48):
Halloween and I will let you both know.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
Danny Elfman has considered it to be a Halloween movie,
I know, despite the Christmas storyline, and this is based
on and I can read the whole, but his quote
is he feels that it's a Halloween movie because Halloween
was his favorite holiday growing up, and he related Jack
Skellington's desire to escape his old so that I've always

(01:00:12):
felt it was kind of both.

Speaker 6 (01:00:16):
So I agree with both of you. I think it
can live in both timelines.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Awesome, so that the panel agrees today.

Speaker 6 (01:00:24):
So tens across the board exactly exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
Well, looks like it's crazy, right, Let's see if this
reflects when it comes to our ratings. We'll see who
the Russian judges of the three today. So, Heather, starting
with you, as you suggested today's movie, what do you
give it out of ten?

Speaker 6 (01:00:43):
Hmm, I'm gonna have to think about this now.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I will go I won't even hit the ten ten
star mark. I will give it nine point seventy five
scary teddies and zombie ducks. Very just took a little
bit that is are.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Well, that's too fast, so close enough, Keith, what do
you give this one?

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
In my country, we have no, tens. I give it
a four four for generalness. No, I'm just kidding, all
kidding aside. I can't give it a nine because or
anything higher than a nine, because that's just ridiculousness. I'll
give it an eightlous, you are ridiculous. We already know this,

(01:01:28):
So I'm gonna go with an a just for the
sheer fact that is live this long the universe. They
have multiple versions of this movie. You have to sing
along the regular you have a musical you can go watch.
It is really progressed to cult status and it's going
to live on forever. Like you said, there's a book
that just came out fifty years later because they felt

(01:01:50):
bad and wanted to give Sally a backstory.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
That's that's good.

Speaker 5 (01:01:57):
I ring.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
So it's an eight out of ten for you then, Keith,
which is great, Yeah, because if you think about this
movie is thirty two years old, so it's uh, it's
been a while. But I'm actually with Heather on this one.
I'm going to give this a nine and a half
out of chain. As I watched it so many times.

(01:02:18):
I owned it on VHS way back when, remember VHS
Kids and there after that as them as the media evolved,
I then graduated to DVD and now I own it
on Blu Rays, so I own it in multiple versions.
So I also owned the soundtrack. Of course I know
the songs by heart. And it's another one one of
those movies that my myself and my sister and my
brother could bond over. So we tend to have very

(01:02:40):
diverse tastes when it comes to films. But what was
interesting to go on a brief brief story here one
of the few genres that myself and my sister before
my brother was old enough to appreciate certain stars of
cinema before he was even born, or whither they was
just too young. The films that my sister and I
bonded over were timber and usually Tim Burton movies. We

(01:03:01):
would watch the heck out of Beetlejuice, we watched the
heck out of This, and then inside of the Tim
Burton universe we would watch movies like Gremlin's which would
drive my mother crazy. She's like, I don't know how
you can watch these movies, but there we are. So yes, sir,
Tim is very near and dear to my heart. I mean,
you definitely made me appreciate what one can do with

(01:03:23):
cinema and what one can do with films if you
let your imagination run completely wild. And so and I
think he definitely has brought so much to the to
the medium, so I can't be thankful to him. And
once again, I definitely what Henry selected with this with
the animation made me fall in love with stop motion animation,
so it made me go down other paths. So this

(01:03:43):
movie went a heck of a lot to me. So
it's nine and a half out of ten. So getting
thus two recommendations. Starting with you, mister Bliss, what would
you like to recommend to the class this week?

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
You've go outside and touch grass if you. I got
to say that at least once I was thinking about
this one, and it's gonna be a very weird recommendation.
And eventually you and I will review this. But megamind
because there's another one of those movies where the character

(01:04:15):
tries to be something he doesn't think he can be
or shouldn't be, or could be, or whatever the case
may be. And then obviously Frank and Weeny because it's
stopped motion. And then nine if anybody remembers that movie,
Oh yeah, amazing. That's a nightmare fuel superhero movie. So yeah,
nine would be my other one.

Speaker 4 (01:04:36):
Well, great recommendations as always, and that miss Badul What
would you like to recommend?

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
So there was a show that came out a while ago.
I think it was on that Flix. Maybe it's on
YouTube now. It's the holiday movies that made us. They
actually like take a deep dive if you want to
learn more about the stop motion of it for Nightmare
before Christmas, if they do like a two part special
on it, if you are a die heart of the
movie and you've never seen the singalong version, so much fun.

Speaker 6 (01:05:04):
But no, I mean anythink stop motion is really important.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
And now that you know that Jack Skellington was in Beetlejuice,
watch Beetlejuice because it's Beetlejuice. Hello, Yes, the sandworm is
technically in it too. We just feed like a side
story adventure of scary Teddy and zombie Duck that I'd
be much happier.

Speaker 4 (01:05:26):
Maybe someday that will happen, seeing as Hollywood is clearly
running out of ideas, so I think eventually that that
will happen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Probably fair enough.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
The only one I could possibly recommend you guys have
recommend some fantastic things. Is going into the stop motion world,
and though we don't like to talk about this person,
particularly these days, it'll be Coraline and I absolutely love
that film and has to learn to obviously separate the
artists from the art. As hard as that is when
it comes to Neil Gaiman, it is a film that

(01:05:57):
once again captured my imagination. I watch religiously, even though
I always kind of have a little bit of a
bad feeling in my gut whenever I watch it because
I know who wrote the story and I know who's
behind it.

Speaker 6 (01:06:08):
But Roan's kind.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Of having a resurgence too. It's really a popular costume
for the Halloween season.

Speaker 6 (01:06:13):
The share too.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
Oh that's interesting, Yeah, at least here in the States.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
No, I mean I I granted, I think it's not
as family friendly necessarily as this is. No, but that
is speaking. The Nightmare fore was as Keith was saying,
you probably I'm probably not going to sit my five
year old niece in front of core Line just yet,
but is an absolutely fantastic tale. And as I said before,
if you were able to separate the artists from the arts,
then definitely sit down and watch it if you haven't

(01:06:40):
done so already, so thus getting too happiness and darkness.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Feedback.

Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
We have some from the mighty Mighty Dave Proctor, who
writes in about our previous the movie that we previously reviewed, Keith,
which is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
I am legend.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
So Dave writes in Hello Fellas, Hey Dave, so sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
This is late.

Speaker 4 (01:06:59):
I meant to go ahead of this and get this
in before you recorded, because this is one of my
top tier movies.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:07:05):
I didn't read the book first. I saw the movie first.
I only saw the theatrical ending where spoilers Will Smith's
character lives. It worked on me. I sought the book
and then Omega man. I loved all of it, some
more than others. There are some parts that bugged me.
I understand why he hid guns everywhere, and I like

(01:07:25):
the idea in that it's quicker than hunting for a gun. However,
as a soldier with access to at least one military
arms room, his weapons should be more standard. I assume
in New York City, his military base is the best
source for arms, not civilian stores or other gun owners.
Where does all the high end furniture come from? Change

(01:07:47):
the location to Washington, DC, and guns will be much
more available and the location is very exciting. Imagine zombies
coming out of the Capitol. We might actually have those.
For those of you who live in Europe and may
not play with military weapons every day, no we don't.
Furniture is the slang for the aftermarket sites and off

(01:08:08):
dark sites and add ons that make AR weapon platforms
so customizable. This is probably a movie maker choice to
make the rifles more badass in appearance. This complicates life though,
because now you have to maintain a buttload of batteries,
and such AR type weapons do well in combat because
if you wound a soldier it requires two to aid

(01:08:28):
them or carry them to safety. Even the ammunition for
military weapons are designed for maximum penetration, not outright killing
zombies like big game animals are much easier to kill
with thirty caliber rounds like an AK forty seven or
an M one garand hard to find, but I assume
M sixties are lying around, but they require chain link ammo.

(01:08:50):
My real point is that loaded magazines of AMMO can
be everywhere, and with military weapons, they tend to fit
in whatever gun you grab. He retreats and runs out
of unacceptable. He could have transported every round on the
base to his compound. That being said, why didn't he
just set up his lab on post near the equipment

(01:09:10):
he needs he needs, and near the guns and ammunition,
also generators and food stores and tanks and machine guns
and castle like buildings and hum vies and comprando portable
barricades and concertina.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Wire, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (01:09:26):
In reality, a research hospital, even one run by the army,
probably wouldn't have many, if any guns. I enjoyed the
alternate ending, but think the main one was the better one.
If you shoot a deer with a small round like
a twenty twenty three, you better have a Mustang because
you will run far before he bleeds out. Again, you
need a thirty caliber round. I do love this movie,

(01:09:48):
but can go on and on about misconceptions about weapons
that media gets so wrong. This is done out of ignorance,
not malice, so okay, I'll allow it. Cheesy action with
tw and drama is what I like. Nine point nine
nine nine out of ten, simply because I have movies
I like better, so it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Can't be a ten. Thank you, Dave K.

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Procter, Well, Dave thank you so much for that wonderful email,
and you definitely gave me some insights about weapons that
I never knew. And of course we do thank you
for your service because Dave was part of the law
of law enforcement, so I guess that's where he has
that knowledge. So fantastic feedback there, Dave, Keith or even Heather.
Is anything you guys would like to add on what
Keith had to say about I am legend.

Speaker 5 (01:10:33):
No, I agree with him. It's just like in The
Walking Dead when they actually take over the jail. And
that makes the perfect sense because I say that literally
every time I see a movie like this, I'm like,
why don't you move to the giant brick building, I e.
In his case, the military base. There's all kinds of
armorament and if he does have to relocate equipment, he

(01:10:53):
can relocate it to this giant base with all kinds
of generators and defensive type of items tanks, you know, planes, guns, YadA,
YadA YadA. But no, no, he's like, I'm gonna go
move to you know, Harlem, and get all this nice
furniture and live at this house and do whatever and
just experiment in my basement like I'm Frankenstein, so I

(01:11:16):
know I agree with them one hundred percent. The setup
it should have been, you know, get to the military base,
because he clearly has access to the base. He is military,
so he should have just relocated there and he could
have lived off for mrs for literally ever.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
Well that's a great that's if somebody didn't survive.

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
But yeah, Heather, would you like to give your thoughts
on what Dave had to say?

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Or even I am legend I if any.

Speaker 6 (01:11:42):
Hi, I'm good.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
I concur sounds good.

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
Well, folks, if of course you want to be like
Dave k Rocter and share your thoughts about movies we
discussed here, you know what to do. Oh if you're
the first time listener, we will tell you right now.
You can shoot this an email to Happiness and Darkness
how at gmail dot com. Once again, Happiness and Darkness
how at gmail dot com. Be shure to follow us
on our social media if you're not doing so already,

(01:12:06):
you can find us on Facebook, whether it at Happiness
and Darkness or on X week and Findances Hi Darkness Pod. Also,
if you are listening to us on such platforms as Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, Pandora, etc. Be sure rate and review us,
as that keeps the algorithm happy and stimulated and allows
our little show to grow and reach more like minded
ears like yours. So big thank you those you have

(01:12:27):
done so in the future. Thank you to those who
will tell your friends, tell your enemies. We don't care,
just spread the good word. And speaking about spreading the
good word, Heather, when you're not here bringing your wonderful
insights to the podcast, where can folks find you on
the interwebs?

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
All right now with the Migraine hiding in my very
dark house, But other than that, every Monday you can
find me anywhere you can listen to.

Speaker 6 (01:12:52):
Or watch your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
You can go to www dot only Broadwayfans dot com.
As imb co host of the Broadwayfan podcast. Broadway Fan
Club is the world's largest platform for fan based communities
for book Broadway and off Broadway, so you can find
us all over the place.

Speaker 6 (01:13:11):
So www dot.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Only Broadwayfans dot com will take you to the page
for our podcast directly, or if you want to check
out the website platform more directly, you can go to
www dot the Broadwayfanclub dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
Fantastic stuff and folks definitely be sure to follow Heather
and oh and everything that she has going on, because,
believe you me, it's always very edifying and very fun exactly.
And Keith, when you you're not being my superhero partner
in Kauri and where can folks find you on the
on the interwebs.

Speaker 5 (01:13:44):
Let's see, it's been a slow year for me, So
let's see Star Trek the Undiscovered podcast. I've had an
appearance on there a couple of times. Real reaction, lamb chop,
the what was that called lamp chop? The something or
other comment, Yeah, lamp drop, the Bullshit Hour. Thank you.
I appreciate that because I always forget it. And then

(01:14:06):
the hour of comics is upon us. I was on
an episode of gold Standard with you guys, looking forward
to that next year. And then when I'm doing none
of that, I take naps apparently because I work too
damn much. And then you can find me on our
Facebook page. You can either send a message, comment, smoke signal,
carry your pigeon whatever. I'm always around to talk about cartoons, combooks, anime,

(01:14:27):
you name it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Well.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
You're definitely a sta candabite when it comes to work,
not a dead eites, mind you, but it's the candabite
for sure. And when it comes to me, folks, you
can find them a day job hosting the radio show
Whiskey and Cigarettes, where we play the very best and
nothing but the best of country music for you guys
from Malabama to Baby Zimmerman. More information about that so
you can is our website which is Whiskey and Cigarettes

(01:14:49):
show dot com. Podcast Wise, as Keith kindly mentioned, you
can also find myself and there's two lovely ladies, Zan
Sprouse and Rachel Friend on gold Standard the Oscars Podcast,
where we have reviewed all the best Picture movies in
chronological order. Now as we wait for the ninety eighth
Best Picture to review itself, we're reviewing movies that we
have picked, and we also have returning a new guest
co host like Keith bring their favorite movies to the

(01:15:10):
gold Standard Theater we upcoming as coming up next on
the gold Standard Theater, we recently reviewed Buchcastle and The
Sun Dance Kid with David K. Procter to of course,
remember the wonderful Robert Redford. Coming up next, we will
be reviewing to kind of see it's a late spooky season,
but it just happens this way, Sean Collins will be

(01:15:32):
returning to the podcast and the movie that he has
selected his Army of Darkness, of course, the nineteen ninety
three Sam Raimi film starring, amongst others, Bruce Campbourn, M F.
Davits and Last Person Not Least Myself and that Charles
Skaggs Guy, can be found on the fandom Zone podcast,
where currently on hiatus. They'll be a brief hiatus. We
reasedly reviewed the second season of Peacemaker. Will be returning

(01:15:55):
next year as of this recording to review the first
and I don't know if there'll be other Sea of
wonder Man. What's the upcoming MCUTV show? And it's being
things to come on this show, folks. Next time we'll
be taking on the night Walk. Will be going on hiatus.
I have to admit first for a week, so sadly'll
will miss you and I'm sure you'll miss us, but

(01:16:16):
we'll be returning in two weeks to bring you another
great movie, and that will be the nineteen ninety eight
Jeremy Chechick film The Avengers. Heather, first off, thank you
so much for joining us today was a blast, of
course having you back and we so look forward to
having you back sooner rather than later.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
Roy is here for you guys. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Oh the pleasure certainly.

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):
Hour was so keith your thoughts on anything you'd like
to add on our upcoming movie or anything else before
we sign off.

Speaker 5 (01:16:47):
I have actually never watched this movie. It was one
of those on my bucket lists to watch and it
just I forgot about it. I'm just gonna be honest
and fans. This The Avengers is not to be confused
with The Avengers, which is a MCU movie. They're similar
but different exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
This is very British. We'll see how British this one
is seeing who stars in it. But we do have
Ray Fines and course of Uma Thurman, amongst others, so
I'm sure we'll make for a great conversation. So of course,
thanks to the decision supporting us, we will see you
next time with The Avengers. Until then, thank you so
much for to prove you your time stay Super Show.

(01:17:25):
Mobby to

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