Ep 272: Interview w/Ashley Cullins, Author of “Your Favorite Scary Movie”

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello, Welcome to Happy Horrid Time. My name is Tim.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Murdoch and my name is Matt Emmert. Now today's special
guest just released her first book a few weeks ago,
and it's already a New York Times bestseller. It's called
Your Favorite Scary Movie, How the Scream Films Rewrote the
rules of Horror, and as Kevin Williamson put it, it's
the definitive story of Scream and a true bible of

(00:33):
its history and legacy. And having just read it from myself,
let me just tell you that is a one hundred
percent correct from brand new and revealing interviews with most
of the franchise's key players, to thoughtful reflections and insights
about each of the six films to date. I'm telling
you even the most hardcore Scream fans will learn things
about the franchise that they never knew before. Please welcome

(00:56):
to the show the author of your Favorite Scary Movie,
Ashley collens Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh my god, thank you for coming on the show.
And congratulations on the book. We both really enjoyed it.
I did the written book, Tim did the audio book,
so we got basically both full experience that's my ghost base.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I love it. Yeah, I still cannot, but it's too cool.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
It is so amazing. And so you know, we read
that you're an award winning entertainment journalism a journalist, and
since we love hearing about people's backgrounds, where did you
grow up and how did you get your start in journalism?

Speaker 4 (01:32):
Oh gosh, I grew up in a small town in Illinois,
about an hour south of.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Chicago, Haddenfield, Illinois, right, not.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
Quite not quite Bradley Bourbonet as the greater area. You
may have stopped for gas there between Chicago and Champagne
is how most people. And when I run into people
in the wild, they're either like, oh, it's where the
Bears used to have their training camp, or I've stopped
for gas there.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
It's lovely. No, it was a really nice place to
grow up, very small town.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
I went to undergrad for television video production, worked a
few years in the nonprofit sector, went back and got
my masters in journalism from Northwestern, and then started my
career in TV.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
News in Reno, Nevada. It was fun. It's where I
met my now husband.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
I was a multimedia journalist, so I shot and edited
all my own video, got to stand on the side
of a mountain and promise it was going to snow
during the drought, all sorts of fun things. And then
we moved to la because my husband wanted to work
in the industry and interesting enough, and a friend of

(02:51):
mine from grad school was at a legal trade called
the Daily Journal, so I started covering entertainment there and
was pretty quickly poached by the Hollywood Reporter because they're
not that many people that write about the intersection of
law and entertainment.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
And I was at THHR for a week shy of
eight years.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wow, wow, Okay, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
And we've read that Scream was your very first favorite movie.
What about Scream made such an impact on you?

Speaker 3 (03:23):
One I think is the age when I saw it.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
There's something about the things that you love when you're
like a preteen teenager that is just different than other
points in your life. And it was so scary but
also so funny, and the characters were so cool you
wanted to be like them until you realize like they
all either die or are murderers, except for Sidney Prescott,

(03:50):
who was very cool. And it was just kind of
relatable because they were goofy, and they reacted the way
that you would expect people to react in that situation.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
And they had seen scary movies.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
I had not seen much horror up to that point,
and it was an interesting gateway.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Drug for sure. But there's just something about it.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean, you're so spot on because obviously we've been
doing this podcast for almost five years now and constantly
we talk about the movies that we saw at that
kind of formative age, and those are the ones that
have had the biggest impact on us. Because even sometimes
when we watch them back today, we're like, why did
we love them so much? I'm not scream, but like

(04:37):
other movies that really stuck with us. But because you
see it at that age, it just sticks with you.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, you.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
Love the adrenaline rush of being scared, right. And then also,
this movie is so rewatchable because it's not like just scares.
There's a lot of other stuff going on, and it's
so quotable. And I had it on VHS and watch
it like one hundred million times, And you know, because
you do that too. When you're a kid and you're

(05:06):
excited about something, it's like all you want to do.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, no, totally and I say that to Matt constantly,
like I say, oh, this movie has such rewatchability factor,
Like for me, that's like the side of a fantastic movie.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, Like do we want to see it again? Because
sometimes there's been movies we've seen that are like, Okay,
this is an amazing movie, but I never want to
see it again. It scarred me. But Scream is one
of those movies you could watch all the time and
still love. So you alluded to this in your acknowledgment section,
but I'd love to hear the full story. How did
the idea or opportunity to write a book about the

(05:39):
screen franchise first come about? Because I've got to know
more about this John guy and that remarkable email pitch.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
So I've started joking because it's very mid nineties, like
remember that time period where it seemed like every up
and coming actress model like had been discovered in them
all like just stumbled upon. And so I joke that
this is the nerdy equivalent of that.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
I had done an.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
Oral history of the first movie for the twenty fifth
anniversary for Hollywood Reporter.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
It was way outside my comfort zone.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
The only thing like that I pitched ever like it
was just the one, and so I spent a few
months working on that. I was really happy with how
it turned out, and then I just kind of forgot
about it and was like, Okay, back to my day job.
And a few months later, out of nowhere, I get
an email from a literary agent and he basically said

(06:36):
that he feels like there needs to be a Scream
book and I'm the person that he has decided to
do it. And it was a really good email, and
so we ended up scheduling a zoom and I was
extremely pregnant with my younger son at the time, and
he convinced me to give it a shot, and so

(06:57):
I wrote the proposal, which is a weird experience. Dance
book proposals are weird when you've never done it before.
And thank god, he had like been through it many
times and he had been an editor prior to becoming
an agent, and so he was very helpful with the
whole process.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
But I wrote the proposal while I was on maternity leave.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
And finished it the friday before I went back to
work on Monday.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Wow, that is incredible, Like I first off, John, if
you're out there, thank you for asking Ashley to write
this book. Because of that, we got this fantastic book
on the franchise. You know, you mentioned also in that
section that as far back as you remember, you've always
felt like an author who hadn't yet written a book.
So before this opportunity presented itself, were there any other

(07:41):
types of like pop culture retrospectives you had considered writing,
or what kind of book had you thought would be
your first book.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
I hadn't really even gotten that far, right, Like, I
just knew it was something that I wanted to do someday,
Like I had this weird like sixth sense that like,
at some point in my life I will be an author.
I just didn't know what that looked like or how
to start. And you know, it's scary to do something

(08:09):
that you've never done before. And I honestly don't know,
were it not for John cold emailing me, how long
it would have taken me to take that step on
my own. So I'm like endlessly grateful and feel like
the luckiest person on the entire planet.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
So those little things, though, you know, like those little
things that change the course of your life. Let's get
really deep there, Like yeah, but exactly. Okay. So before
we jump into discussing specific aspects of your book, being
that you are a Scream megafan like us, we have
to ask your opinion on just a couple essential franchise matters. Okay,

(08:42):
are you ready? Okay, okay? What are your top two
films in the series to date?

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Scream the original?

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Yes, And then I go back and forth between two
and six for a while, I said six, with two
almost right behind it, But I think that there was
a bit of recency bias because I'm very I love six.
I think it's great the fact that they took it
to New York and really pulled the rug out from

(09:11):
under you in terms of like how you were supposed
to get to safety and made literally nowhere safe, and
the tension and the set pieces, like there's so much
I love about that movie.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
But then sitting with it.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Over time, there's so much about Screen two that is
just excellent. And I still think about it. Literally every
time I use the restroom in a movie theater.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
I do two every single time.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
And that's the thing I always think if I hear
anything in a stall that sounded really dirty, that like,
I'm like, am I overhearing a murderer, and I would
never put my ear up to a bathroom, So, like,
who's doing that? Like that that they're deserved to die?

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, who's your favorite ghost base?

Speaker 3 (09:58):
I love Billions do. I think that their reveal that.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
Whole scene is just so unhinged in the best way.
Missus Loomis is also great though, Like, and I as
a mom, I kind of get it, like it's her fault,
right at least in some way that Billy ended up
the way that he is that caused all this. But
like she's she's out to avenge her son, which is

(10:24):
a very relatable motive. And they're all so different that
Jill's great too.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Oh yeah, I'm not going to make you pick between them,
because you literally picked the best ghost faces of all that.
But okay, if you could bring back one character that
was killed off throughout the series, who would it be?

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Oh God, everybody's going to be so mad at me
because they all want to be like realived. Jennifer Julie
great choice because National Treasure Parker Posey, that character was
so much fun and I would like to see her
in the context of a screamyror scream movie.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
I like that, And what is your favorite overall kill
or death scene.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
Well, I feel like nothing can really compete with Kasey Becker,
so everybody's just kind of playing for a second.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
I really like these are hard questions.

Speaker 4 (11:25):
I actually really like the Sheriff Judy wes Hicks too,
fur because the way that they built the tension in
that scene was just like my heart the whole time.
And then the fact that like he got her in
broad daylight while she was coming home to like try

(11:45):
to save her son. Like again, maybe it's the mom
in me, but like there was like that was I.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Agree, like that broad daylight because usually scream films are
at night, so the fact that was during the day
it makes it like unsafe.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Forever, and like right outside her house there was no
one outside it was that was that is a terrifying
and you didn't expect it. I remember being shocked because
you think she's going to run in and maybe witness something,
but like nope, he or she or whichever one of
the killers it was is hiding in her like bushes
on the front boards. Yeah. Okay, well, thank you for
humoring us with those essential screen franchise questions. So I'm

(12:23):
really interested in, like all the details behind how these
projects kind of come together. So I was wondering when
you first got started, how did you decide kind of
what the format of the book would be Like did
you always want to incorporate interviews to help guide the narrative.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Yeah, I mean that's just how I work, Like, I
never thought about doing anything else, and I've always whether
it was in TV news or in print, I always
start with my interviews and I pull out the quotes
that are the most interesting, the most emotional, the most.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Significant, and then I let that.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
Form the bones of the narrative, and then I build
around it instead of saying, Okay, here's what's the story
and then like plug and play sound bites.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
And I didn't know if that was.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Going to work on the scale of a book, because
it was even with the oral history, which I think
I ended up with thirteen sources on that, and so
thirteen font colors because when I'm moving stuff around, everybody
gets their own font colors, so that if I lose
an attribution, it's easier to find than having to go
back and search my main documents. And I was like,

(13:33):
there aren't enough font colors, Like how am I going
to do this? And it there are and some people
had to double up, but like I would just put
somebody who's only in Scream two is the same color
as somebody who's only in Scream five, because there probably
wouldn't be a lot of overlap.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
And so I pulled out all.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
Of my favorite parts from each of the interviews, and
then I organize every by movie, and then once it
had been broken down by movie, further by like topic
within each movie, and I put that all into just
like a massive document that I think when I first
got to that point, was.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Like one hundred and eighty thousand words.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Wow, I mean, well, I mean and it makes sense
because you mentioned in the book that you had over
eighty hours of interviews with everyone from Kevin Williamson, Nev Campbell,
Courtney Cox, and David Arquette to the Radio Silence Team,
Jasmine Savoy Brown, Mason Gooding, Hayden Panaitier, et cetera, plus
tons of crew members in all of the films, and
even Wes Craven's widow Aya Labunka. Now, how did you

(14:44):
go about getting all of these interviews and what were
some of the reactions to you telling these people, Hey,
I'm writing a book on the screen franchise.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I'm trying to think about how to answer this.

Speaker 4 (14:56):
So it was it was different depending on who it was, right,
because there were certain people who I, you know, reached
out to directly, and then a lot of the on
screen talent I had to go through publicists and that
is always a whole thing, uh, and people were typically
very excited to do it. There are only a couple
of people who actively said no. There were a lot

(15:18):
of people I never got an answer from where I
just like, I had to create a category in my
massive spreadsheet that tracked all this that I called publicist purgatory.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
I like the alliteration.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, we're like, I feel like, was there anyone that
just was like no?

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Uh yeah, I'm not going to say we could.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Probably make assumptions by who wasn't in the book that
may have been important, but yes, good on.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, there were I think there are three people who
said no, and then some that just didn't respond. Who
did the who else is participating? And I answered and
then just got lost in the ether. There was somebody
who said no twice and I got him on the
third ask. So that was my that's my like watergrad

(16:01):
is I should have just been more annoying in the
beginning because I was so afraid of getting a no
that I'm like, you know what, I'll just be courteous
and take my time and not be like super like,
hey me still here waiting for an answer because I
was so afraid of a no, And then I ended
up turning like the one know that I was really
bummed about into a yes, and I I could have

(16:24):
just done that like anyway.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
But they eat those emails to see how you did it.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
No.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
I mean, it's.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
So funny that you mentioned is because like doing a
horror podcast where we interview people involved in horror, like
we've dealt with those things and sometimes you know, it's
the persistence that gets you. But there's a fine line
between that gets the interview. But there's a fine line
between persistence and being annoying. So I can only imagine.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, I got very lucky in that a publicist who
was at Sunshine Sacks at the time was working with
the project X guys and had just reach out to
me to set like a hey, let's catch up and
talk about what you're working on call, And I told
him about the book and he was like, wait, no way.

(17:09):
And so William Scherrick was one of the first people
that I talked to, and he produced the new movies
and he was insanely helpful and so supportive and that
was like a big, like major win for me in hindsight,
and that like he could not have been more generous

(17:31):
with his time and his knowledge and his passion for
the franchise. And also just like knowing that he had
said yes was a vote of confidence for the people
who knew him, because.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
You know, it's like a family. So that was big.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
And then Kevin thankfully said yes pretty early on because
he was the one person that I felt like I
couldn't do this without. But it does happen where somebody
sets out to write a book about a movie or
a TV series or a franchise and like the key
person doesn't do it, and then you're just kind of like, Okay, well,
I guess I.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Have to keep doing this. But like I feel like
I got really, really lucky.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
And it's almost all original quotes, Like I pulled a
couple of things from Wes obviously that was not an
option talking to him, and there were like one or
two other very minor things, but for the most part,
and like, I'm going to give space to the people
who gave me their time, and that was how I

(18:32):
approached it instead of, you know, just going out and
plucking things that were in the world already.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
And that's incredible to be able to get new interviews
and new quotes from people who've been in a franchise
it's almost been around for thirty years, you know. I
was especially delighted to see that you spoke to John
Carpenter and that he even gave you some advice on
what to put in the book, because, just like Kevin Williamson,
Halloween is the film that shaped my love of all
things horror. I was actually eleven and when I saw it,

(19:00):
so I was a little I'm a little older than you,
so I saw Scream as like a teenager, but Halloween
was the one that kind of shaped all horror for me.
So other than John obviously being a master of horror,
what inspired you to want to interview him in particular
for a book about the Scream franchise?

Speaker 4 (19:16):
So I had always wanted to incorporate people outside the
franchise to legitimize for lack of a better word, my
thesis that Scream changed horror because I feel like it did.
I know people who worked on the movies feel like
it did. But I want somebody else who understands this genre,

(19:37):
who doesn't have anything to gain or lose by being
honest about this, to tell me what they think about it.
And so during the sag after strike, I couldn't really
talk to actors, and that was like seventy five percent
of my list, and so I'm like, all right, I'm
going to really lean into the sort of academic side

(19:58):
of it. And so I I made up my list
of horror experts and film professors, and Scream and Halloween
get compared a lot, and Wes Craven and John Carpenter
were contemporaries, and so I was like, you know what,
I don't know what he is going to say, but

(20:21):
why not?

Speaker 3 (20:22):
And he said yes so fast.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
I was home alone and my agent didn't answer the phone,
my editor didn't answer the phone, my husband didn't answer
the phone, and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
I need to tell someone.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
Because I was so excited that he said yes. And
he was great, he was so fun to talk to.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Oh that's like my dream interview.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
But that's the biggest Halloween fan I've ever met.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I'm a like, yes, yes, that's incredible, incredible and yes,
especially like you know, as we're reading the book, you know,
I'm in like, I think it's like the first chapter
and I see like John Carpenter, I was just like, oh, okay,
because it totally makes sense, like you, because you don't
have the option of speaking with Wes Craven, Like, who
is another master of horror that was right around that
same period of time. It's John Carpenter, So of course

(21:09):
he can, you know, and he had a lot of
great stuff to say. Something you mentioned the book was
that Roger L. Jackson, the voice of ghost Face, was
found at a casting call in San Francisco and knew
he had to be kind of sort of flirty or
sexy in his style. I was wondering, did Roger mention
anything else about how he kind of came up with
the actual voice that he created for ghost Face.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
He didn't get into like the mechanics of it, if
that's what you mean, but he, you know, it was.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
On the page like that.

Speaker 4 (21:40):
He just saw the character so clearly based on the
sides that he was given to audition, and I think
I put it in the book.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
I know he's told the story before that.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
There were you know, people in the room talking about
it being like a Freddy Krueger type and he's like, no, no, no, no,
this has got to be like flirty and kind of sexy,
and you can't have any idea that it's threatening until
it is. And so his ability to sort of like
play that nuance is just incredible.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
The way he spoke for like Heather Modorazzo or Parker
Posey or Jamie Kennedy changed his voice a little bit,
it was really fun.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
I love also that, like when I remember when I
first heard the voice in Scream one, I didn't even
I mean, I knew it was a human voice, but
it doesn't sound like someone. It sounds like maybe you
did something like exorcisty with the voice, because it's so
low and dominating and scary, And just for him to
be able to get into that like level of intensity

(22:44):
is just incredible and it's like he really is that.
Like you know, you think the mask when you think
of Scream, but I can't not think the voice. We're
not We're not finished yet, yeah, exactly. And speaking of
the Oh.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
I was just gonna say, I think that the Mask
is scary because of the voice, because you hear him
first before you see that image.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
True, And what.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Happened when you tried to interview the president of Fun
World about the Mask?

Speaker 4 (23:13):
I got a very unintentionally funny response with like a
list of all of these questions about the book, like
why are you doing this now? And who else is participating?
And I forget what they are. I have it saved
in my email, and so I responded and answer all
the questions and followed up a couple times and just

(23:35):
never heard back.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
And I'm like, all right, well.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
So you took the time to answer all those questions
I can only imagine, And then of course you did
because you're like, yeah, that is wow, that's just so weird,
because like that's their claim to fame Mask, right.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
Well, I realize after the fact that that Fangoria article
about the history of the Mask that kind of like
casts some death on its origins had just come out
around the time that I emailed him, if I'm remembering correctly,
So I think that they were just a little bit
on edge that this was like a screen mask hit

(24:11):
piece and.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
You're like, I'm doing an entire book on the entire frangise,
Like it's not just trying to expose fund world. Wow. Okay, So,
after reading so many people's accounts in this book who
worked with Bob Weinstein during the first four films, he
just sounds like he was pretty difficult to put it lightly. Now,
my question for you is, did you ever consider trying

(24:35):
to interview Bob for this book or was that something
you just didn't want to touch.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
No.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
I didn't really have any interest.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
I felt like there were so many people who worked
on these who are good people and made life easier
for the people around them.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
But why, Yeah, I like that. I I was just
kind of like, why I It.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Was just crazy to see and to read about all
of the different things that happened, because we've talked with
other people who made movies under Dimension and it's all
the same. Like, you know that Bob was a difficult person.
I'm choosing my words lightly, you know what I mean,
Like everyone who worked with that. But okay, So what

(25:22):
was so amazing to discover in your book was just
kind of how special the experience was of working on
a scream film for almost every single person involved, with
the exception of one person, Mark Irwin, the original director
of photography on Scream, who was fired for shots being
out of focus. Now I know there were kind of
different perspectives on whether that was actually true or whether

(25:43):
he was a scapegoat to get more time and money
from Demension. So after talking with all of these people
who were involved, what do you think really happened? Like,
what does your gut tell you about how that actually
went down?

Speaker 4 (25:55):
I mean, I think it was probably a case where
there was some stuff that was out of focus just
by nature of shooting film and how challenging that is,
especially in a dark atmosphere, but that Mark Irwin legitimately

(26:16):
felt like there was enough. Meanwhile, Patrick Lucier and Wes
Craven felt like they didn't have necessarily everything that they
wanted right.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
For the edit.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
So I think it's I can see both sides of it,
and obviously I was not there. Patrick Lucier is lovely,
Mark or Irwin was also great by the way, he
could not have been nicer given the circumstances, Like he
was awesome and he not even he really had a

(26:52):
bad thing to say about Wes when I asked Patrick
Lucier about that. He was so specific, and I'm like,
nobody stared at this footage more than the editor of
the movie. So if I'm going to give slightly more

(27:12):
weight to any one person's version of events, it's probably
going to be Patrix, just because he was the one
looking at it and cutting it. And granted, yes, he
was close with Wes and probably would have supported Wes
through I mean he literally said he would have joined

(27:33):
the circus and shoveled elephant poop if it meant working
with Wes. So you know, there is some like love
and respect coloring, you know, his recall of these situations.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
But yeah, yeah, no, I kind of got that feeling too,
Like I almost felt a little bad for Mark in
the book because it was almost you know, I, like
you said, I kind of got the feeling, like you
put in your book, that there was maybe a little
bit of everyone's perspective was correct, you know. But it's
nice to know that he's still like he can at
least he can look back on to be honest about

(28:05):
what happened, but still have positive things to say about
Wes and all of that.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah, I do like it was sorry, I was just
gonna say, I I do. It's not the kind of
way you want your working relationship with anybody to end.
And I felt really bad for the focus Puller two
because it like really impacted his career. And the guy
who came on to replace him after the fact, like

(28:31):
said that he almost felt like a villain because he,
you know, had to step into that role and this
guy had such an amazing reputation.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
And it set him back and that's awful.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
And so it's like, I don't know, you know, usually
the truth is somewhere in the middle, and you know,
regardless of exactly why it went down, you know, there
was career fallout for these people, and that's unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah. Wow, you know what I was going to say
was another thing I loved about your book was just
how authentic you are when you're mentioning things that you
kind of learned during the process and we're experiencing while
writing it. One example in particular that we absolutely loved
is when you talked about how you actually tested the
tom cruise in all the right moves. If you pause
it just right, you can see his penis line and

(29:21):
with your mother in law. Nonetheless, now, how important was
it for you to put your own personality and anecdotes
into this book rather than just telling the story, you know,
using other people's words and talking about the franchise.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
It was hard for me, actually, because because of the
way that I tell stories, like I'm not the story.
I don't feel like I'm important, And it was I
wrote the first I think it was eleven or twelve
chapters and sent that to my editor and one of
her big picture notes was there needs to be more
of you in this, and she like flagged a couple

(29:55):
of the parts that she really liked and she was like,
this is awesome.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
We need more of this.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
And so I went back and you know, did that
on the first half, and then as I was working
on the second half, I, you know, I had that
note in my head, so I put more of it in.
And it's easy when it's something funny like yeah, there
was a rumor that Tom Cruise had that edited out,
and of course I'm going to go to eBay and
buy a DVD, and it just so happened. My mother
in law was visiting for Christmas, and I was like, hey,

(30:21):
I gotta fire this up. Like she also she's never
seen screen, but she proofread the book for me to help,
just like extra eyes, and so she was massively, massively helpful.
Thank you, Kathy, and like so stuff like that. It
was silly and like the ghost face fetish thing and

(30:45):
the part where like I was scared of Roger's voice
on the zoom, like where it was funny. I feel
a little bit more willing to share myself when it's
humor because it's safer, right.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
So the comedy Pod guest, I think would get a
great yes.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Speaking of Tatum, what happened in the more gruesome DUTs
scene they originally shot for her?

Speaker 3 (31:15):
I think it was just a lot more footage of it.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Because yeah, I know you mentioned in the book there
was like tons of blood and stuff, and I didn't
know if maybe if you had found out if the
scene was actually different, or if it was always the
garage door but they were just going to make it
more gruesome.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
I think it was just the garage door, but a
lot more of it, because like, if you remember the
way that scene is, it's like a split second after
you see her and then it's you know, and then
you see.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
The wider shot and uh yeah, that's.

Speaker 4 (31:47):
There was also like a much much more gruesome shot
of Steve the boyfriend and the opening where they had
like steam coming off of the guts, and it was
just they had such a hard time with the MPAA
that none of that stuff made the good.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
It was so interesting listening to your book about like
I haven't heard NC seventeen in like thirty years, so
like that was so I mean, like I remember Showgirls,
and I guess Scream was just the next year, but
like it was, you know, gonna get an NC seventeen rating.
I was like, oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
I.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Show Girls. Actually show Girls did get an NC seventeen rating.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, well deserved show Girls. Yeah. So moving on to
Scream two, now, I was really pleased to read that
several of the people you spoke with consider the sequel
to be better with the original, because I was holding
back when you were answering about your top two movies.
It's actually my favorite film in the franchise. And I
know it's like that can be controversial to say, because

(32:44):
the original obviously is amazing and it's my second. But
over the years, just every aspect of Scream two, from
the chase scenes to the characters, to the killers, to
everything just kind of rose above it for me, So
it was kind of nice to see I felt vindicated
to other people felt that way overall. Why do you
think a lot of people kind of feel this way

(33:05):
about the sequel?

Speaker 4 (33:07):
It might be better, Like for me personally, it wouldn't
exist without Scream, and Scream was groundbreaking, so to me,
I never say never, but I don't think anything is
ever going to outdo the original.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
And Richard Potter, who.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Was an executive at Dimension at the time, made the
point that nothing becomes a franchise unless the sequel is
better than the original, because it has to be better
than it to be seen as equal because of that
bias that I just admitted to. And so you don't
get a third movie if you don't have a sequel
that's better than the first one. And I so it

(33:49):
it might be. I don't you think it is like
a lot I think a lot of people do.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah. And again, it's like it almost feels like when
I when it finally I felt like I had to.
I was like coming out, like saying I reminded me
of one. I did come out. I was like finally, finally, yeah,
finally admitting that Scream two was my favorite because it
almost feels like you're blasting the original, which, like you said,
is groundbreaking, but like, oh my god, I just love
Scream two so much.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
But I mean, I feel like I'm running for office
when I say this, but I love them all. I
should never say that I'm not running for anything.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
You know, you got to interview the incredible Lori Metcalf,
who played my all time favorite ghost face, Missus Loomis,
and I just have to ask what was she like
and did she seem like she's really embraced her legacy
in this series.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
She was very thoughtful about the way that she answered,
which I appreciated because you know, when you are talking
about a role for that many years, I could see,
you know, when you're not like the Sydney Prescott, even
when you are the Sydney Prescott. I'm sure like these
people probably get a little bit tired of talking about

(35:00):
Scream And I appreciated that she gave real answers, which
was amazing.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
And she talked about, you know, the.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
Two characters, because she sort of played two characters and
it was one with an alias, and how she didn't
really treat them as separate, but they that she had
different motivations for each of them, which I thought was
really interesting. So she didn't necessarily treat them as different people,
but she treated them as the same person with different motivation.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Well wait, Debbie Salt doesn't exist. Sorry, I have to
cut that all. I quote Scream two constantly. It's very
it's very annoying. Uh Okay. So after this incredible experience
that everyone had making Scream and then even Scream two,
then comes Scream three, which didn't sound like it was
as enjoyable for everyone involved. Now do you think it

(35:53):
was just kind of like the constant rewrites and writer
changes that caused this, or the change in tone, because
in the movie itself it does feel like everyone's having fun.
But I got the sense it just didn't seem as fun.
To make the third movie.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
Well, I don't think I mean to call it an
uphill battle after the studio makes a decision like not
waiting for Kevin Williamson to write it is like a
massive understatement.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
I don't to.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Get past something like that and actually get it to
a point where it's enjoyable to make like nobody wanted
to make the movie, Like nobody wanted to do it,
and Stuart Butler told me that one of the executives,
like nobody wanted to do this, and it didn't have

(36:46):
a script because they wouldn't wait for Kevin. And then
they hired Aaron Krueger and immediately pulled him off of
it after he submitted a draft to go work on
something else, and so then they had to bring in
somebody else to do rewrites, and there I don't think
there was a final script on that movie, like until

(37:07):
they were about to walk.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
So just the chaos, but not only the chaos.

Speaker 4 (37:13):
It's like chaos in the shadow of the studio treating
somebody you respect and like so badly like it.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
I don't think there was any way it could have
been a positive experience after that.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, And it's a shame because it's like, it's funny
because the tone of Scream three is kind of I mean,
even though it has a very dark, more Impresscott backstory,
it's kind of like the lighter, funnier one. That's so
to know all this stuff was going on, it's just
a shame.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
It's a through line throughout your entire book, like everyone's
like everyone says, it's a sense of family and a
sense of fun. And it sounds like, like you said,
like this one just was chaos just because of certain
people meddling or getting involved that maybe you shouldn't have gotten.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, and we know who those people are.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
Yeah, Wes ran a lot of interference. So when you
hear people, the actors the crew talk about the experience
of working on that movie, like a lot of them
had a like an absolute blast making the movie. But
it was because you know, he created an environment that
was different from the one that he personally was dealing with.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, and that's I mean, what makes him such a
He was just such an incredible person. One funny thing
that we read in your book, Patrick Lucier, you mentioned
edited the first three Scream films, said in your book
that Kevin Williamson's initial version of Scream three played like
alien and had motion trackers. Did you elaborate on any
of that. I'm just so interested because when I read that,

(38:45):
I was like, that's a visual I never thought of
with Scream.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
Yeah, it sounded really cool, It sounded really interesting. Like
I had my I had trouble wrapping my own mind
around like what that would look like in practice, But
I remember that. I think the big difference between that
and any of the ones that they've actually done is

(39:10):
that you think they got Sydney, so like you think
she's taken down, and then there was like a time jump,
if I'm remembering correctly.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, No, that sounds like I just like, as soon
as I heard Alien and motion Trackers, I was like, wow,
I've never heard about that, you know. So eleven years
later came Scream four, and the way Bob Weinstein treated
Kevin Williamson just sounded awful. I mean, now as I
understood it, even though Kevin had signed on to be

(39:40):
I think the sole writer of Scream for Bob hired
multiple writers without even telling him. Now is that correct?
Or was there any more to that story?

Speaker 3 (39:50):
So? Hi, this is Felix.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
I Felix, what kind of dog? Easy?

Speaker 4 (39:55):
She's mostly Australian cattle dog with like some shepherd and
hush thrown in for fun.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Fun fact.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
He got skunked at like midnight the night before my
first interview with Kevin. So I'm like going to Walgreens
to get dog dish, soap and peroxide and whatever else
the vet said, And I'm like exhausted dealing with a
skunked animal before like a gigantic interview for the book.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Thankfully, Kevin is a dog person, and he like, I was.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Going so even understand that, Yeah, is that is that
kind of how it went that Bob hired most behind
Kevin's back or was there more to that story?

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah? No, Uh.

Speaker 4 (40:39):
Kevin was in Atlanta working on Vampire Diaries and he
got a call from from Wes basically being like, I
don't know how to tell you this, but they have
other people writing Scream for And Kevin understandably was like what, Like,

(40:59):
I'm writing Scream what do you mean? And so there
was a whole thing with the WGA for writing credit,
and like eight writers had contributed various pieces. So like
after that, Kevin was like, I am done. He gave
up his rights to Scream to like get out of

(41:21):
his deal with them. He did come back to write
the hospital scene at the end of the movie, because
originally it was going.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
To end in the house and Jill.

Speaker 4 (41:33):
Was going to it appears get away with it, so
that then in the next movie it could follow her
to college and then somebody has figured out what she
did and it's ghost face versus ghost pages. And so
he came back to write that last scene because Wes
had asked him to, but otherwise that was that was
the end of it. And I know Wes did a

(41:56):
ton of writing, like stayed up multiple nights in a
row right shooting, writing shooting, and his assistant did some
work on the script, basically frankensteining things from Kevin's earlier
drafts to try to solve problems that came up during
the course of the shoot. And then there were other
writers who were brought in, you know, at various points,

(42:17):
and it just I can't fathom treating people like that.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
I can't either, and I'm just wondering. And this isn't
just some like random writer you hired. This is the
writer creator of like Scream, Scream two. You already had
a bad situation in Scream three, so like now he's
actually coming back his idea of how to bring back
the Scream series, and then you hire people behind his back.
It just feels, it feels so Hollywood. But it's like

(42:44):
it's just so awful to do and disrespectful to a
person who created this. It just I can't even imagine.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And they also had so much time in between to
like clear the air but apparently clear.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Yeah, it was truly just a Hollywood being Hollywood situation
where like, we've got this valuable thing and he's now
a super prolific creator busy, and we wanted to cover
our ass, but like instead of being upfront about that,
Like that would have been shitty even if they had
been honest about it, but they decided to hide it

(43:19):
and be shitty in secret, which adds a whole new
level of fun.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Yeah, And did producer Kathy Conrad sue the Weinsteins because
they tried to make Screen four behind her back?

Speaker 4 (43:31):
Yeah, she got cut out of the process to like
at some point between like three and four. It was
just sort of like the deterioration of a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Wowow, it's just crazy, Like, especially like those two movies.
I feel like Screen three and four were filled with
all of these like scandals and things like that, which
is amazing that they were able to bounce back with
the new movies. But I think my absolute favorite part
of your book was chapter fourteen, simply titled Wes, because

(44:02):
all the anecdotes that you included about everyone's experiences working
with Wes Craven were just so poignant and heartfelt, you know,
like he really did seem like a gem of a person. Now,
obviously you weren't able to chat with Wes when writing
this book since he passed away in twenty fifteen, But
I was wondering two things. Number One, had you ever
gotten the chance to speak with him in the past

(44:23):
as an entertainment journalist? And two, and I know this
is a pretty big question to put you on the
spot with, but if you had the opportunity to say
anything to Wes today about the Scream franchise or this
book specifically, what would that be?

Speaker 4 (44:38):
Oh? No, I never got to talk to Wes. When
it comes to storytellers I admire like Wes and Kurt
Vonnegut are the two that I'm like legitimately sad I
didn't know them during their lifetimes because I'm just like
blown away by their minds and their work.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
And what would I.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Ask Bess or even just say to him about, you know,
the franchise I would have had I know it's a
very heavy question.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
It would be something around how he feels about himself
and his career with the benefit of hindsight, because you know,
we see how people talk about him now. But Saturday
was the tenth anniversary of his death, and Horror was

(45:35):
still kind of in a place at that time where a.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Lot of people didn't really.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
Consider it, you know, art, And so I would love
to know what he thinks about his career and the
movies he made and his legacy, you know now with
the ability to see the way that people talk about him,

(46:00):
because you know, that's got to be hard to feel
like you are put in a bus and you're creating
things that you love, but also that you feel like,
no matter how many times you prove yourself, no one's
ever going to let you just make what you want
to make. And he got to do Music for the Heart,
but they kind of screwed the pooch on that. And

(46:21):
like how Meryl Streep got nominated for an Oscar and
yet that wasn't a cive movie is just beyond me.
So yeah, I would kind of like to know, you know,
just kind of how he feels about all of it.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, and you also got to interview Meryl Streep about
working with Wes on the movie. How did that come about?

Speaker 3 (46:44):
This was like a Don Carpenter situation.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
And I so when I was at Hollywood Reporter, I
ran power lawyers for eight years, so like, I know
everybody's lawyer, and so I emailed her lawyer basically being like, like,
could you please put me in touch with her team
because I want to ask her to talk about Wes

(47:08):
Craven for this book I'm writing about the Scream franchise,
and if it's not, you know, funneled through somebody who
knows me, and can you know, legit legitimize me, It's
gonna seem insane, Like this ask is just so out
of left field. And what I didn't realize is that
he just like sent it to her assistant.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
And she said yes.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
She ended up having to answer via email, which was
still incredible, Like, and she was so great, and usually
with email answers you can kind of tell, but she
writes the way that she speaks, and I'm like, I
can hear her saying these things, and it was so
thoughtful and so heartfelt, and I really appreciated that she

(47:57):
took the time to do that, and I do think
that that's just one of many things that speaks to
the kind of person that Wes was.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
I loved hearing a Meryl Streep quote. I just like, oh,
this is awesome.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
I had to do a double take because first I
was like, Okay, she's talking about Meryl Streep. And then
I saw a quote and I was like, is this
a new quote? And I like rent to the acknowledgments
or they interviews, and I'm like, oh my god, I
saw her name, like you talked to Meryl Street or
interviewed Meryl Streep for a book about the Screen franchise,
which is amazing. I love that. So jumping forward another
decade now, what I found to be kind of comforting

(48:31):
when reading about the lead up to Scream five and
the decision to do another movie without Wes was that
directors Matt Betenelli Open and Tyler Jillett, also known as
Radio Silence, and even writers James Vanderbilt and Guy Bmusick
all loved the Scream franchise. Like these weren't guys that
were just looking to cash in on the series. They
were super fans. And so I wanted to know, did

(48:51):
you get the feeling that Radio Silence kind of created
the same sort of extremely positive and uplifting atmosphere for
their cast and crew that Wess always created on his sets.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (49:02):
Absolutely, They're fully like best idea wins mentality, which I
think is step one to creating that kind of environment,
because yes, like directors are in charge, like you are
the boss, You're the one, you know, putting all of
this creativity, translating it from the page to the screen.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
It's your responsibility. But there's a way to do.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
That and not act like you were better than the
other one hundred and something people who are making this movie,
because it is not possible without every single one of them.
And so just creating the kind of environment where people
felt safe to take risks and make suggestions and knew
that they were going to be taken seriously, and even

(49:54):
if you know they don't do your idea like, they're
not going to make you feel like an idiot for
bringing up. So I absolutely think that it was. It
was very much a similar vibe. And actually I think
Heather Madarazzo used an analogy where she said it very
much felt like worshiping in the House of West because

(50:15):
she was one of the people that had worked with
Wes Craven and worked with Radio Silence, and she said
it they were similar priests.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Was the I love that, Yeah, I mean, and that's
what that's what I got the feeling through your book.
It was so nice to see the parallels between how
people felt working with both sets of directors. I also
we also noticed that at least three of the ghost
Face Killers, Skeet Ulrich, Rory Colkin, and Jack Quaid, did
some sort of freaky stuff to prepare for their roles,

(50:42):
like Skeet transforming his room into this like dark serial
Killer's den, Jack creating a Reddit account called stabhead to
look into toxic fandom, and Rory slapping himself before scenes
and actually stalking his cast mates one weekend in the woods.
So what were your thoughts on all this and were
there any other like intense preparation methods you heard about

(51:02):
for these kinds of roles.

Speaker 4 (51:05):
I just like, you know, whatever it takes for you
to get there, like it worked, like because I think
that just shows you that these people are very much
like not like their characters. I've got to get into
this guy's head, and here is a batshit way to

(51:26):
do it, Like I'm gonna go by faces of Death
DVDs and posters and I'm gonna turn my hotel room
into Billie's bedroom. Or I feel like even when the
cast and crew is being all like me, I can't
get close to them because I have to have this

(51:47):
separation because my my guy on screen later is gonna
have to, you know, try to kill all of you.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
And Jack.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
He made a playlist, which I guess he does for
all of his characters, and this is just an example
of meeting too curious as a person. He starts talking
about this playlist and instead of like moving on to
the next thing, like okay, but wait, tell me what's
on the playlist, Like what in the world is on
his playlist?

Speaker 3 (52:15):
And then he goes into you know what.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
It was a lot of stuff from the screen soundtrack
and you know some other things that made sense and
read right hand obviously, but then there was like Elton
John Tiny Dancer, and he's like, yeah, it was actually
a pretty good playlist except for Monster Mash.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
And he told me that the.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
Cover was Woody from Toy Story because he felt like
that was Richie's first favorite movie that really got him
into movies and got him into fandom, that sort of
paved the way for him to become obsessed with stab later.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
Wow, I remember listening to that. I was actually at
the gym. I go to the gym, But I was like,
did he give you that list?

Speaker 2 (53:03):
I mean, did he give you the Did he share
the playlist with you so you can listen?

Speaker 4 (53:07):
No, I don't actually have. I should get a link
to it. I want to listen to this. It's I
know he still listens to it. He said he did,
so I you know, Scott, I still exist.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
And did anyone explain the reason behind calling screen five
just scream?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Because I know there was like a joke that you
talked about where like they called it five cream and
like everybody and stuff like that, But that was what
I was wondering. Did anybody actually tell like radio silence?

Speaker 4 (53:30):
I guess nobody must have. And I feel like I'm blanking.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Like whenever I google, I always put in scream twenty
twenty two.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Oh yeah, you have to.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
You have to they.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
I mean, they all call it screen five like when
they're talking about it to each other, when they're talking
about it to me. But I think I'm going to
go ahead and make an assumption here, and maybe this
is pulling brain information deep deep back that like I
am having trouble sourcing at the moment that it was
sort of an attempt to do what the first movie did,

(54:01):
which was when Scream came along. It was made for
an audience that had been largely ignored. It was the
first new franchise for teenagers that wasn't number five in
an ongoing series. And so I think by naming it
Scream instead of Scream five, one, it calls back to

(54:22):
the original in a way that taps into nostalgia for
the lifelong fans.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
And two, it.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
Is more welcoming to new fans than calling it Scream five.
It's like, Hey, we're having a bit of a reset
and this is the next generation. And instead of implying
that this is, you know, going to be hard for
you to understand if you've not seen the previous four movies,

(54:50):
we want you to know that even if you've never
seen a minute of the Wes Craven Scream films, you
can come watch this movie and still have fun.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
So yes, actually, is that makes a lot of sense?

Speaker 3 (55:02):
Yeah, that is my educated guest.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
No, no, no, I think it sounds it sounds spot
on exactly. I was also laughing at the part. And
you alluded to this earlier in the interview, where directors
Matt and Tyler were telling you that ghost face is
sexy and makes people horny because at first I was like,
come on, but then I looked into it, and there
really are actual accounts on Instagram, some that follow our podcast,

(55:28):
which are dedicated to showing ghost face and sexy situations
or in like provocative scantily clad poses. They're very creative.
But it is really funny that that is a thing.
So in your opinion, why do you think ghost faced
among all horror movie villains is seen as so sexy?

Speaker 4 (55:46):
I think part of it is, and this tracks I
promise I'm getting there. There is a part in the
chapter talking about the opening of screen three where Sheila
Waldron tells me that Wes Craven explained to her that
there's nothing scarier than a dolly into a closed door,

(56:08):
because as you're going that like slow approach toward a
closed door, you make it the scariest possible in your mind.
So you go to the darkest place, whatever is scariest
for you, so that by the time the door actually
opens and you see what's on the other side, it
doesn't matter if it's that thing you're like emotionally like

(56:29):
already there. I think that to a certain extent, the
mask provides the same kind of thing, like you can
use your imagination as to like who is under the
mask and what they intend, and it lets people sort
of like customize their kink.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
I guess yeah, I can see that because it's almost
like you're fantasizing purposely easy that word about who's under
the mask. So fantasies can exist in many different aspects
of life. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It's just so funny because it's literally more than any
other villain I've seen. I've We've definitely been sexy.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Ghost Face always starts off phone calls.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Like, hey, I mean.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
That, you know I can't. I have no ghost anyone.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
So there have been a couple interviews that have come
out lately where David Arquette has been a little more
candid about not being I guess so happy about the
decision to kill Dewey Off and Scream five. I was
just wondering, did you get that feeling when chatting with
him about that aspect.

Speaker 4 (57:38):
Yeah, he was the only person I actually got to
interview in person.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
We have breakfast, and.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
I could tell he's sad, and he basically told me
it never even occurred to him that not killing Dewey
is something he could ask for, so instead, he focused
on asking for things that he felt made the character
more authentic to who.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
He felt Doo he was.

Speaker 4 (58:07):
But yeah, I he's he's sad and you know, rightfully so,
and especially oh God, the way that happens, the fact
that it's a call from Gail that distracts him.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
It's like, oh, it's so tough because it's like, I
can see both perspectives of why the filmmakers killed him,
because you know, it's their first new movie, raising the stakes.
He got to change something in the original trio to
survive for so long, and then on the flip side,
I'm like, oh, but this is the trio like Royalty
and like so it's like I can see both, but

(58:41):
I can feel I feel for David r oh me too.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
It's like, you know, because throughout the entire book there
was like, oh, it's like camp and everyone gets along
so well, it's just like and it's like telling someone, hey,
you can't come to camp anymore.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
You're you're thrown out.

Speaker 4 (58:54):
In tam I do except for he could absolutely show
up on set and just chill on, any of these
movies would be well Yeah, I've spent a lot of
time thinking about that, and I truly don't know how
else you get Sydney back to Woodsboro. Yeah, true, because

(59:14):
I don't think there is any other person in the
planet she would have come back for.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
What if they were having a carnival in her honor?
Sydney Prescot extravagaansad No, Okay. So Scream six marked the
first film in the series without nev Campbell, as she
decided not to return because the studio wouldn't pay her
what she felt she deserved. Now, my favorite quote about
this situation came from Wes Craven's widow, Aya Labunka, who said,

(59:46):
what the fuck? She is so integral? Honestly, Wes would
have never let this happen, And I was just wondering,
do you think if Wes had been around for part
six that he could have gotten them to pay her
what she deserved or do you think the directors were
kind of power or less in this respect?

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
This is kind of an impossible question because I don't
know if Wes had still been around, and he theoretically
had done Scream five, I don't know that he would
have taken it to the younger generation again, because they

(01:00:23):
tried that with Scream four.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
Yeah, so I think we would.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Have gotten a very different story with Scream five to
begin with, and therefore it would have been a different
story in Scream six.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
And so.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Presumably Sidney, I like, it's impossible to know, but I
there's also something to be said of, you know, being
a person who is decades into their career, having you know,
a budget battle like that, and being in the position
of Radio Silence where you're off to like a really

(01:00:58):
solid start, but comparatively you're much earlier in your career
and it's like, what what do you do? Yeah, and
it's you know, it's hard to make movies. It's hard
to get everybody on the same page, and sometimes stuff
like this happens.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, I mean, totally an impossible situation. It was just
interesting that that quote came from uh Wes's widow, and
I was thinking. It just got me thinking, like, I
wonder what would have happened if Wes were around during this,
if that same sort of situation came up. But you're
totally right. If Wes had been around and doing these movies,
the movies would have been different. It would have been
probably continuing his legacy and characters and specifically like that. Well,

(01:01:43):
moving on to the latest installment, Scream seven, which is
set to release in February of next year, We're very
excited thirtieth anniversary. Yes, exactly. Now, you covered what happened
with Melissa Barrera being fired, but didn't focus too much
on that, which I think was smart. Did you attempt
to interview either Melissa or Gary Barber, the CEO of Spyglass,

(01:02:03):
to expand on what happened, or did you just want
to steer clear of that controversy?

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
No, I tried for a long time to get Mollis.

Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
I knew from the beginning that, like the everyone at
Spyglass and Paramount was great. But I knew from the
beginning that I wasn't going to get any of you know, the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Disea Suite on the phone for this. So but I did.
I did try and sale a v right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the thing is is that it's
it's gotten to be such a contentious issue that I
almost feel like the best thing to do is, like
what how you handled It's kind of cover what happened
in some of the opinions of other people, but not
focus too much on it, especially because there's so much
good and positivity around this series. And obviously every movie

(01:02:54):
Enfranchise has its controversies and lower points, and but like
you know, this book, it was so much positivity that
I think that was Yeah, I think that was a
good decision.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
And here's the thing, Like, there was so much more
that I wanted to talk to Melissa about other than that. Yes,
it would have been nice to have an original perspective
there instead of you know, having to pull from what
she had posted on Instagram about the situation and just
sort of like talk to the people around her about it.

(01:03:27):
But like somebody several people talked about her chemistry read
with Jenna Ortega and how they like immediately clicked his sisters,
And it's like, I want to hear about that. I
want to hear about you stabbing the dummy on the
floor while jack Quade is sitting on the stairs watching you.
I want to hear about the delivery of the line

(01:03:47):
and the therapist's office and scream six because that deadpan
is just perfect, Like there were other things, you know that,
And and that's the bit that like is kind of
a bummer, Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy with
how the book turned out. It's just, you know, I'm
a perfectionist. I would have talked to everyone who spent

(01:04:09):
more than thirty seconds working on any of these movies,
if you know, time in the universe would have allowed,
and I would have spent ten years doing it, and
it would be a literal encyclopedia, and you know, it
is what it is. But yeah, I treated it, I
think respectfully. And it is of course presented through the

(01:04:31):
lens of its impact to the franchise, because it's a
book about the franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Yeah, no, totally. I would have wanted to know just
about how she juggled the idea of playing like a
heroine that has kind of this dark aspect to where
it's such a different sort of character that had never
been part of the screen franchise. But onto a more
positive note, the stories both Kevin and Nev told about
how they were asked to direct and star in Part
seven were just so heartwarming reading those and how like Kevin,

(01:05:00):
it was just so sweet and it just feels like
so many people involved feel like the stars have kind
of aligned for this new film to be incredible. Is
that the sense you got talking to most people involved
in Scream seven, Well it's.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
Better sweet, right, because nobody liked what happened, and like
there was it was tumultuous for a while between you know,
Radio Silence being you know exited over scheduling and then
Chris Landon coming on and leaving and what his family
was dealing with during that whole time and having to

(01:05:34):
basically start a new movie from scratch, Like William Sherrick
basically said, you know, movies fall apart all the time,
like no movie gets made because it should get made,
and so you just kind of have to deal with
reality and keep moving and make the best choice that
you can.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
And I honestly.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
Can't think of anything better for the franchise than Kevin
directing this movie. It's it was one of those surprising
but inevitable quote the Radio Silence guys in the book It.
As soon as it was announced, it was like, oh, well, obviously,
like that is clearly the right choice.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
This is in the book.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
It was kind of funny. I actually asked him like
two weeks before he got that call whether he would
ever direct Scream, and he was like, oh, like, what
am I going to add to it? If I don't
write it, and I so I see the announcement and
I text him like, Kevin, what, And so when I
finally got the chance to talk to him about it,

(01:06:38):
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Like, what changed?

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
He's like, I was asked, So I honestly think it
was like, it's kind of like me, like when you
ask me what I would have written.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
I felt like an author who had never written a book.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
I don't know what the answer is because I wasn't
sure it was a real possibility. I think he truly
just hadn't ever let himself think about it because he
didn't think it was going to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
And then when it did happen, he was like, well,
of course I would love.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
To do this.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
And it's just such a like an incredible full circle moment.
And I say this in the book that sort of
like the story of the franchise has a similar like
pattern to the stories of the films, where it starts
off in an unexpected place and there are highs and lows,

(01:07:24):
funny moments, darkness along the way, and then it ends
on a relative high note, even if it's bittersweet because
you know there's been death and destruction along the way
and so I kind of feel like that's where it's at, like,
and I do think that this movie is going to

(01:07:45):
be incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
And you got to visit the set of Scream seven,
what was that Like?

Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
It was so cool, Like you hear people talk about
night shoots and so to step into a night shoot
was just wild, Like the energy, it's everybody's exhausted and
it's work. But like, legitimately, everybody could not have been friendlier.
I didn't feel like I was treated like ooh journalists,

(01:08:11):
you know, which people understandably, like it's an occupational hazard
that sometimes people put up walls, and I didn't experience
that at all on this book or on set. Everybody
was so welcoming and friendly and like there were there
was like a smoke machine going.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
You can see there's a picture in the book of
the house at night.

Speaker 4 (01:08:30):
And it was like so spooky and you had to
like walk across this like little green space in this
cul de sac to get to craft services in the bathroom,
and it was just like, uh, is he here?

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
Is ghostpace here? So like there was a.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
Vibe, but it was so fun and everybody seemed to
really enjoy working together and watching Kevin and Nev like
get together at the monitors and like talk through scenes was.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
Just really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
I love that. And I have to know, did you
wear your Gale Weathers blazer when you met Courtney Hawks
or was she there on the set when you met she?

Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
She wasn't there the day that I was there. I
didn't yet own the Gail Weather's blazer.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
I bought it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
Specifically to do like events and press and stuff later,
although I found out the hard way that like the
shorts are shorter than I realized, and so there is
no sitting down.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
In this and it will not be present at events.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
But I did wear a like basically Tatum sweater one
of the days and then the other day was like
Freddy Krueger Vibes stripe.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
So like there was thematic wardrobe. Because I am extra,
I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Help we would have done the same thing because just
like that. So at the end of your book, you
included a quote from Mason Gooding where he said, keep
letting the people that have loved the franchise for as
long as they have be at the helm of these movies,
which is obviously what they're doing by having Kevin Williams
and direct parts now, do you think this is the
secret to the franchise is continuing success?

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Absolutely? Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:10:08):
William Sherrick talked about this quite a bit too, that like,
you can't let anybody in the inner circle who isn't
a fan, because Kevin created a concept that you can
pick up and put down at any place in time.
Because it's a different person under the mask, or different
people under the mask. They each have different motivations, different goals,

(01:10:29):
and because they comment on the current moment and culture, they're.

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
Moments in time, right, So you can do this story.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
A thousand times, a thousand different ways without it getting
stale theoretically, because they're who done it's that are funny
and have stabbing like it's a brilliant like setup that
has so much room to play and customize and subvert expectations.
But if you find yourself in a place where somebody

(01:11:05):
at the core isn't a lifelong fan, like isn't somebody
who truly loves it in their bones, then you run
the risk of somebody trying to put non scream story
into a scream story. And you know, because there are

(01:11:25):
there are rules of how to make a scream movie,
and you've got to kind of work in that and
accept to a certain extent that you were playing in
somebody else's sandbox. And it's okay to take risks, and
it's okay to take big swings.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
And you should do that, but you should do.

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
That in a way where it is like unquestionable that
you're making a scream movie.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
And I've spoken to a lot of actors and directors
and stuff, and when someone's not passionate about it or
doesn't really care, it's just like a paycheck. It shows.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
It shows, especially on long running during franchises that have
huge fan bases, you know, it really really shows. So yeah,
I totally agree with what you just said. Before we
wrap up, I know it's only been a few weeks
since the release of your book, but what has life
been like for you since it was released.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
I'm so tired.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
Like I've always been the kind of person that, like,
I go really hard until a deadline, and this was
a bit of a weird situation because like the book
was done like a couple months ago, like it had
to be printed and whatever, but it didn't feel done
until it was out in the world. And I usually

(01:12:40):
get sick at that point like immediately my body's like, okay,
you rest now. And I've been busy talking to people
about the book. I had an event at Barnes and
Noble on Saturday.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
I have been.

Speaker 4 (01:12:53):
Trying to learn how to do cool shit on social media.
I like, I feel like I'm very fun in real
life and I'm very bad at Instagram and I'm trying
to work on it. And so there's just been so
much and then like stuff going on in life, like
we're in the process of moving out of state right now,
as well as if that timing wasn't crazy enough, and

(01:13:13):
then the New York Times bestseller thing happens, which is
just like.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
So surreal. I still don't know if that is actually sunk.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
In credible congratulations is right, it's incredible, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
And it's like I've got a couple of deadlines to
get through. I write a.

Speaker 4 (01:13:32):
Column for The Ankler, and I'm like, I've got a
couple of deadlines I need to get through, and then
I just need a nap.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
You're like a two week nap, Like I just.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
Don't even know. But it's been it's been incredible.

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
And the thing that I was nervous about was like
the fans loved this franchise so much. I think them
in the acknowledgments, and I mean it like this franchise
would not be what it is now without the fan base.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
And anytime that you're talking.

Speaker 4 (01:14:03):
About something that people love so dearly, there's a little
bit of like a oh god, like what are they
gonna think? And you know, I it's not like I'm
some famous author. I was very afraid that people were
gonna be like, well, who is she and why is
she writing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
About this thing that I love?

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
But like that hasn't been the response at all. It
does seem like people realize that, like the call is
coming from inside the house, so to speak, like I
am one of them, and so the love has gotten stronger,
Like when they're in that period where it's just like
people who read advanced copies of books regularly reading the

(01:14:45):
book and they're giving you great like compliments, It's like
it's kind of hard to accept like a compliment, right,
but you're like, okay, but these are like book people
and some of them are huge, massive screen fans, and
they seem to like it, But like, what what is

(01:15:05):
everybody else going to think? And I had somebody come
up to me at this event on Saturday. She's a
massive Scream fan. Her name is Natalie and she does it.
She's not much of a reader. It was her first
book event ever, but she was like, this book makes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
They want to read more. It's just like this is wonderful.

Speaker 4 (01:15:24):
So like between people telling me they don't usually read
books about movies and the people who do telling me
that it made them rewatch everything, it's just like the
response has been so much better than I ever could
have imagined.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
I mean, as I was listening to it, it made
me want to Like each chapter, I was like, oh,
I want to watch Scream two, three, four or five six,
Like it totally triggered like, Okay, what was she just
talking about. I want to go see it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Yeah, you want to go and watch exactly what you're
talking about. Totally that makes it perfect sense. And we're
so happy for your success with this and with this book.
And like we talked about the beginning for those who
prefer audio books and have your scary movie read to
you by none other than Roger L. Jackson, the voice
of ghost Face, how did that come to be? Like?
Was it your idea to ask him to read the

(01:16:09):
audiobook or how did it happen?

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
Yeah, it was one of those things where it was
like what if, what if Roger did the audiobook? And
so then we had our like little group like conversation
with it was me and my agent.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
And the editor and they're like, ooh, I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:27):
And so I had to wait for a certain point
in the process to like get approval because uh, plume
my imprint as part of the Penguin Random House family,
so like it's a whole thing. And so as soon
as they gave me the green light, I had had
a call scheduled with Roger to talk about some Scream
seven stuff anyway, and so we finish it and I'm like,
before you go there, there's like one one more thing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
And I was so nervous.

Speaker 4 (01:16:51):
Is there any universe in which you would narrate the audiobook?
And he goes this audiobook, I'm like, yeah, it's like, oh,
I'd love to And it was just like, like I
cannot believe I didn't have a second choice.

Speaker 3 (01:17:05):
There was no other choice, Like I it was just.

Speaker 4 (01:17:08):
So clearly it should be Roger, and he did such
an incredible job.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
I need to listen to the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:17:16):
I've listened to like my favorite parts, and I like
started with the parts where either he's talking about himself.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Or he's so weird when he quotes himself.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
I was like, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:28):
And then the fact that I didn't know that he
was going to do the chapter titles in the voice
and so hearing that was such a fun surprise, especially
when like some of the chapter titles are so ridiculous,
Like if you've ever wanted to know what it would
sound like if ghost Face said ham Sandwich, you don't
have to wonder anymore, cuz.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
It's in there. It's just it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
And take anything away when you watch, like I just
listened to a I don't know how many hours it was.
But when it doesn't like it's still scary, Like I
can still watch the films like, oh, he just explained
scream to me. It doesn't it doesn't lose anything.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
We're not friends, but like we're not friends anymore when
now he's a killer. Yeah yeah, yeah. And by the way,
listeners or people watching this and you can find out
what ham Sandwich means if you get the book, because
a very interesting story on what that means, and it
totally makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
So last question, what's next, Like, what's next for you?
Another book? Perhaps you want to tackle Friday the thirteenth.
There's only twelve of them.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:18:35):
I need to figure it out. This was such a
no brainer for me when John emailed me. It's like,
you know, taking the step to do something I'd never
done was scary, and knowing that there was a lot
of pressure to live up to expectations, like I don't

(01:18:57):
want to fak this up, like was also scary, but
like it was such an incredible experience.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
It was a lot of work, but it was great
and I would like to do it again. I have
an idea.

Speaker 4 (01:19:15):
I want to get buy in from the key people
in advance, which because I feel like I got very
lucky on this one and that doesn't always happen, and
I don't want to run that risk again. So if
I decide I want to do this other pop culture
nonfiction thing, I'm gonna sit down and talk to the
people and be like, if I do this, will you

(01:19:38):
participate before I take it out, because without yes is
from those few key people, like, it's not worth the stretch,
Like I don't want to take those years off my
life again playing the like.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
That game.

Speaker 4 (01:19:53):
But I have, you know, there's an idea for a podcast,
and there's an idea or finally doing something with my substack,
and like, I just got to figure out what is
the right move.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
And I mean that's an honest answer. And it's only
been a few weeks that I mean, you're still in
the middle of all of the press for this, so
of course it's like you're like, well, first you need
that nap, You need that nap first. Yeah, Well, look,
we have one final question for you, Ashley. And this
has been such a delight beginning to talk with you
so in depth about this book that we loved and
the series that we love, and we ask every single

(01:20:32):
person that we interview this final question. It puts you
on the spot, unlike all those other questions we had
that didn't put you on the spot. Right, what is
one thing, just one thing that you can tell us
about your experience writing your scary movie that you've never
told any other interviewer, podcaster, publication to date. Now, it

(01:20:53):
doesn't have to be like salacious or gossipy. It can
just be anything, but just something about your experience writing
this book that you've never told in another interviewer, so
to another interview so far, I feel like.

Speaker 4 (01:21:05):
This is really boring. But I rewrote the beginning of
the first chapter like four times, and I hated all
of them until Kevin came back to direct, and I
had known what the last line of the book was
going to be, and it was like once that piece

(01:21:29):
came into place, like a light bulb went off. And
so the first couple of paragraphs of the first chapter
was the one of the last things that I wrote,
which I think is kind of interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
Yeah, that's really interesting from the beginning, and I love
the ending. And I won't tell anyone because they need
to get the audio.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Yeah, yeah, I know, that's a great I mean, we
get all sorts of answers to this question you wouldn't
even imagine, but like, I love that's exactly the type
of adsway that we wanted to hear. Yet, thank you.
I mean that is I haven't heard that before, especially Yeah,
writing the very beginning at the end. But at the
same time, the beginning and the end are like the
most important parts of a book, so of course you
want to make sure it's like perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
So it's scream you can't screw up the opening.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
Very true, very true. Well, look, Ashley again, thank you
so much for your time, especially because you're right in
the middle of being so busy. We really, really, we're
so grateful that you took the time to come on
our show, and we really wish you nothing but all
the success in the world. We loved the book, like
you can tell anybody listening, like Ashley is a true

(01:22:36):
fan like all of us, and it's really writing from
the perspective of a fan who loves this series. So
it's take, you know, handling it with care and you
can tell in the book. So thank you seriously for
all your time. And in terms of where people can
get the book, is it just literally I mean I've
seen it just anywhere Amazon, Barnes and Noble everything. Are

(01:22:56):
there any specific things to plug of where people can
order the book, just wherever you.

Speaker 4 (01:23:01):
Get books, Like, it's probably at the place where you
get your stuff. I haven't seen it in an airport yet,
So if you're in an airport and it's not there,
ask for.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
It, because I would love for it to be in airport.

Speaker 4 (01:23:16):
There's just something cool about that, Like being in bookstores surreal,
being in libraries like weird, like so geeky cool, like
I want to see That's like the thing I'm missing
is I want to like stumble upon my book in
an airport bookstore and just like geek out over it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:34):
But yeah, any anywhere that you get.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Books, Yeah, no, no, And it's funny because this would
be the perfect book to get like before a long
flight and be like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna handle
this one on the flight. So if you're made out
of London, like a to London or Australia anyway, thank
you again for your time, and we hope to stay
in touch. And yeah, I can can't wait to see
what you do next.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Great book.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
Yeah, we'll take care. We'll talk with you soon. Okay, okaybye.

Speaker 1 (01:24:08):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Happy Horror Time.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
If you'd like to support the podcast, please sign up
to be a patron at www dot patreon dot com
slash Happy Horror Time. As a patron, you get access
to all our bonus content, which now includes two new
bonus episodes every month, a monthly after show mini episode,
access to our Discord community so you can chat with

(01:24:31):
us directly, and the chance to review a film with
us in one of our bonus episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Patrons also get all our regular episodes, ad free and
a day early our monthly newsletter, the chance to vote
in polls, and autographed Happy Horror Time stickers.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
I'm Matt Emmerts and I'm Tim Murdoch, and we hope
you have a happy Horror Time

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