August 13, 2025 • 31 mins
Interview by Angela Croudace
Three decades into their career, Paradise Lost remain masters of gothic metal’s melancholic grandeur. With their new album Ascension, guitarist Gregor Mackintosh took on the dual role of musician and producer—a responsibility he says wasn’t a giant leap, given his growing involvement in shaping the band’s sound over recent albums.
“In the past, producers used to be heavily involved in songwriting and structure,” Gregor explained. “Now it’s more about getting the sound in your head onto the record.” While self-producing offered him complete creative control, it also brought the risk of over-polishing, a trap he deliberately avoided. “Metal’s become so sanitised, chasing perfection until all the character is gone. I wanted Ascension to have flaws that give it life.”
Inspiration for Ascension struck after a period of creative standstill, triggered, unexpectedly, by the band’s re-recording of their 1993 album Icon. “It put me in a different headspace,” Gregor says. The record’s visual identity came together just as organically, centred on George Frederick Watts’ Victorian painting The Court of Death, whose calm central figure surrounded by grief perfectly mirrored the album’s themes.
For Gregor, Paradise Lost’s longevity comes from refusing to chase trends. “We’ve always done our own thing, not been part of any scene,” he says. “If it resonates, great—if not, so be it.” That independence extends to songwriting, where fan expectations take a back seat to authenticity.
And while misery remains at the heart of Paradise Lost’s music, Gregor sees its appeal as intensely uplifting. “Dark music is evocative; it makes you feel something. It’s not about being miserable, it’s about connection.”
Australian fans may get to experience Ascension live in early 2026, with tour plans currently in discussion. “Fingers crossed,” Gregor says. “We’d love to be back.”
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/heavy-music-interviews--2687660/support.
Three decades into their career, Paradise Lost remain masters of gothic metal’s melancholic grandeur. With their new album Ascension, guitarist Gregor Mackintosh took on the dual role of musician and producer—a responsibility he says wasn’t a giant leap, given his growing involvement in shaping the band’s sound over recent albums.
“In the past, producers used to be heavily involved in songwriting and structure,” Gregor explained. “Now it’s more about getting the sound in your head onto the record.” While self-producing offered him complete creative control, it also brought the risk of over-polishing, a trap he deliberately avoided. “Metal’s become so sanitised, chasing perfection until all the character is gone. I wanted Ascension to have flaws that give it life.”
Inspiration for Ascension struck after a period of creative standstill, triggered, unexpectedly, by the band’s re-recording of their 1993 album Icon. “It put me in a different headspace,” Gregor says. The record’s visual identity came together just as organically, centred on George Frederick Watts’ Victorian painting The Court of Death, whose calm central figure surrounded by grief perfectly mirrored the album’s themes.
For Gregor, Paradise Lost’s longevity comes from refusing to chase trends. “We’ve always done our own thing, not been part of any scene,” he says. “If it resonates, great—if not, so be it.” That independence extends to songwriting, where fan expectations take a back seat to authenticity.
And while misery remains at the heart of Paradise Lost’s music, Gregor sees its appeal as intensely uplifting. “Dark music is evocative; it makes you feel something. It’s not about being miserable, it’s about connection.”
Australian fans may get to experience Ascension live in early 2026, with tour plans currently in discussion. “Fingers crossed,” Gregor says. “We’d love to be back.”
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/heavy-music-interviews--2687660/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am Greg from Paradise Lost.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You've produced Ascension yourself. How in wearing both the guitarists
and producer had to shape this record differently from past albums.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
It was remarkably similar because over the last few records,
I've kind of done most of it, a lot of it. Anyway.
The producer is not producers these days are not really
like producers of your of like the seventies, eighties, early nineties, however,
where they kind of got involved in the song structures
(00:33):
of the songwriting. There was shitloads of pre production. For
the last however long, it's been more like you're just
asking someone to find the sound that you've got in
your head. Ye. Over, I don't know how many of
the last few years I've known how to gets that anyway,
(00:53):
you know, So it's like it was just taking a
person out of the mix. Really. The only difference being
it's a bit more work and there's a bit more
responsibility on your shoulders because you know, if it's wrong,
people can come to you and say you fucked up,
(01:13):
you know. But apart from the workload, not that not
that much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, And I guess it totally makes sense as well,
for someone in the band to produce the album, you've
already got a clear sense of what how things sort
of should sound.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Like, I suppose, yeah, And I mean again, last few albums,
most of the guitar parts and things like that, or
keyboard parts or backing vocals, things like that I've been
done in demo stages and just end up getting used
on the album. So it wasn't a great stretch. And yeah,
(01:56):
I mean, I've had my own studio for quite a
few years, and it's nice to have the time to
spend to do all everything how you want it to
be done. But it's a double edged sword because you
can kind of disappear down rabbit hole and end up
chasing your tail and come back to the initial idea
after months of messing around, you know. So with this one,
(02:24):
like about three years ago, I had half the album
written and I just scrapped it all because I wasn't
feeling it. It took a year ago and then felt
inspired again, so started again and this time around it worked. Yeah,
But you know, you can't you can't force it. I mean,
all the all the all these production tools that have
(02:44):
cropped up in the last twenty years, or whatever. They're
still only as good as whatever you put in it,
you know, so we still have to have the ideas
and the the spark there to make something, you know. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And do you find producing your own music makes you
more obsessive over little details or do you find it
liberating to have that control?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, a few years ago I would have said it
was liberating because it took a lot a lot of
the financial sting out of recording. You only had to
go in for the studio to record your drums, maybe
a nice big drum room or something. The rest of
it you can do at home. So in that respect, yes,
But like I said, I think people can get to
(03:33):
anal about it and music, I mean metal music, especially
the music that was supposed to scare your grandparents, that
was supposed to be so rebellious, is now more sanitized
than pop music. Pop music is more daring, you know.
So it's kind of weird that it's gone like that,
and is I think the reason it has is because
(03:55):
everyone's chasing perfection, so everyone sounds the same. It's all
of us, volume wive, it all has the same similar sounds,
and the problem with that is you get rid of
all the character, and character stems from imperfections. So bands
(04:17):
back in the day, the reason they all sounded so
different is because they were limited by budget, what the
guitar pedal was, what the guitar was, your you know,
circumstances where you grew up, you didn't have lots of
external influencers hitting you, lots of different factors. And I
(04:38):
think it's just with modern day metal production, it's become
everyone's almost copying each other and it just sounds very safe.
And it's hard to break that actually, because people don't
want to hear things that aren't safe or perfect as
it were. But on this record, A he tried my
(05:00):
best to get some character in there. For instance, with
the rhythm guitar sound and the lead guitar sounds. I
did the opposite of what most metal producers are doing now.
They're trying to get rid of all this mid honk,
this boxiness and the guitars. And I like that. I
like it, like it's been mite from the back or something.
You know. It's so yeah, I tried to get on it.
(05:23):
I don't know how successful it was. I guess time
will tell, but the intention was there, you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Know, Yeah, well, to me, it's successful. I've heard it
all and I love it, of course. And do you
find did you find that creating this album felt more
like you were creating it, especially in regards to playing
it live, Like does it sound like more like how
(05:49):
am I trying to say, like an album that would
transplate Weld live?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I would say for the most part it is. I mean,
with all our records, we do a certain amount of
songs where we think, oh, this will be great to
play live, and then other ones that become more of
a studio thing where it's more about the atmosphere. You think, oh,
this would be good to listen to on headphones and
(06:18):
get lost in it. Escapism, you know, it's something that
paints a picture in your mind. So it just depends
on the song. I don't think as an albums it's
any different live. What maybe there's a couple of songs
that are kind of more up tempo, you know, that
would whip you up in an audience, up in a
(06:40):
live situation, which is kind of unusual for us in
a way because we do like our slow stuff. In fact,
my favorite song the album is the slowest song, usually
called Salvation. So I say yeah. I mean when I
when I start getting this album together, the core of it,
I thought, I really want this to sound like an
(07:02):
autumn winter Christmasy album. Yeah, and that's kind of what
it's shaped into almost.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I get that from listening to it
as well. There's definitely you guys have balanced that. There
is still some slight heaviness there, but you've definitely balanced
it with that harmonizing more melodic.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah. Well, it's getting the catchy points across. I mean
a good example of that is the opening track Serpent
on the Cross is there's a recurring melody in that.
That's what's it now? Well weird, like I can't remember
it right now. It started off as a vocal thing
(07:44):
I was, I was mess around doing vocal lines. Yeah,
I came up with that and I said, I said
to Nick RSin, I said, can you try this out
over over this this riff, and he said, oh, it's
going to sound better on your guitar. So I did
it on guitar and he was right and it just
worked that way. So we kind of throw things back
(08:05):
and forwards melody wise, and it's all about that eoworm,
you know. Yeah. So the structures are very important, that
the dynamics are very important, because if everything's heavy, nothing's heavy,
you know. So we try and do all that, but
(08:26):
we always try and get and this comes from listening
to a lot of film soundtracks in my youth. I
think there's also a recurring theme that pulls you back
into this. Even if the music totally changes, You've got
this recurring little melody that comes back and draws you
back to the main point, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, And do you ever feel pressure to top
a previous album or is it more about exploring what
feels authentic in the moment.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I don't feel like we need to top artistically because
each album is different. We've always tried to when we
come to write album, think right, forget everything else. What
would we do if we were a new band now
and do that? But I think from a people that
(09:17):
surround us, management, record label, maybe even some fans have
certain expectations and it's on them, unfortunately, not on us.
You know, we we do our thing. If it doesn't resonate,
then that's just the way it is, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, No, definitely good answer.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I think you're so right.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You're creating music for yourself then as well, and obviously
you know your fans in that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
But for yourself and what feels right for you, guys, well,
it's actually not for the fans at all. Yeah, you
can't think like that. I don't believe you can think
of because if you do, you'll just end up repeating
yourself or doing something that's a parody of yourself, you know.
And that's something we've always been very aware of, given
(10:05):
from when we're like, first record is treading this fine
line because what we do is kind of pompous in
a way. So so we've always had this line where
we said, weep openly at the shea pomposity and it's
so it's mournful and bombastic, which is good, but there's
(10:27):
a fine line into cheese and parody, which we're more
aware of than anyone of any listener. I say we're
doing to the nth degree. We're like, is this crossing
the line territory? Get rid of it? You know. So yeah,
so that's that's one of our things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, And your lind guitar work, especially on tracks like
Tyrants Serenade, always carries so much emotional weight. Do these
melodies come in intuitively or through experimentation.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Kind of a bit of both. It's usually just messing around,
so experimentation, but then it's I know, what feeling I'm
trying to evoke, and if it doesn't do that for me,
then it's not doing it. Yeah, I still have to
(11:24):
work on it till it's doing the thing that I
wanted it to. And like I said, some start, I
was just humming a tune along. You know, you hear
a bit of music, you hum along to it, it's like, ah,
that would make a good lead line, or you know,
sometimes the lead line actually comes comes first and then
you think what will go over that. Yeah, I've not
(11:46):
been I'm not really into widly widdly stuff. So it's
always been about less is more. Yeah, and again that's
that's that's down to the listener, whether it is successful
or resonates or not.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
You know, was there anything you guys scrapped that you
now think back on and go, oh, maybe we could
have made that work.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, No, we're actually that's one of the things that
we do is getting rid of the So for instance,
we I mean it's five years since the previous record
to this record. It's quite a long time. But about
three years ago I had half of it written. It
(12:35):
just wasn't sitting well with me. I kept trying different
iterations of these songs. I had about six songs, and
it just wasn't sitting. I was driving myself and saying
with it. I just said, look, I'm just gonna scrap
it all. And I scrapped it and deleted the whole
lot so that I could never use it again because
it was doing my heading. And then I took her
(12:56):
out from writing completely because I wasn't inspired. And then
we did a re recording of an older album, It's
Icon thirty thing, which was thirty years since one of
our records, and it kind of put me in a
different headspace and I felt all inspired again. And then
it was just like bang bang bang over autumn winter
(13:17):
last year. All came thick and fast, interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So it really was that was like a physical thing
that gave you inspiration at that time, because I was
going to ask, you know what made you suddenly have
that inspiration back?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, it was. I don't know. I can't say it's
all that, but I know that it definitely tripped something
in me and gave me a clearer idea of what
I wanted to do, and also with the whole package,
the artwork, the titled that what the songs are about,
(13:56):
we kind of went right back to brass tacks, which
is the aim of Paradise Lost came from the book,
the themes of the book, the religious psychonography, the striving
for enlightenment or ascension or whatever, you know, this struggle,
and the whole thing is kind of centered around that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You know, Yeah, definitely. I like that you mentioned the
album Arn't there as well? It's incredible. Can you tell
us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, well, it's a painting that I liked for quite
a while. I think I've got a print of it
on my wall. Actually, well, I can show it, guess
Oh there. It is so beautiful. I love it. I
love this piece of artwork. And when we were decided
on Ascension as a title, that kind of sprung to mind.
(14:47):
But I know that the painting isn't about that. It's
called The Court of Death by George Frederick Wats, who
was a Victorian painter, and I well, I just said,
you know, I looked at the painting and I was
listening to some of the demos that I did, and
I thought, this actually really fits because the central figure
(15:10):
looks really calm, like they've achieved this enlightenment, and the
figures around looked kind of full of grief or in turmoil,
and that kind of rings true with the album, you know,
the album. And also the colors to be a bit
(15:31):
little more based. The colors, the baroque reds and greens
and gold were just this christmasy feel the album. And yeah,
so I got in touch with them a girl of
our management office, Vicky, and I said, look, this is
the I really like this image. I don't know if
we get rights to anything. She said, I was actually
(15:52):
at the Watts Gallery about three weeks ago on holiday.
She sent me a picture of her like this in
front of the painting. The original is fucking huge. It's massive,
hanging from a ceiling, and she said, I know to call,
so she called and it was really smooth. Usually we
(16:12):
have trouble getting artwork together on packages, but yeah, just
everything clicked in the place. So wow, we're really pleased
with that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, that's crazy, that's awesome, and it does it fits
so well and kind of leads me into my next
question as well. Actually, which we have spoken about a bit,
but the new album has moments of stillness and reflection
alongside heaviness. How important is that contrast to your songwriting
and songs.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Well, I think it's important in general any band to
have light and shade because if everything's heavy, nothing's heavy,
it's all just on a level. So it's important for that.
I think it's extra important for us because we're trying
to evoke imagery. It's escape. So I mean, I've always
(17:04):
a lot of people like this, but a lot of
people aren't. When I listen to music, I think a
bit in visual terms, So where someone would say, oh,
that's really heavy, I will think, oh, it sounds more
like a storm coming over the horizon, you know, things
like that. So I try and do that when we're
making music. So to do that, you have to have
(17:25):
light strokes with the heavy strokes, you know, and it
makes all everything more dramatic and everything more effective when
you do that. If you have these real, somber, low
key parts and then you have this in tobacco almost
type thing, you know so well. I mean the first
(17:47):
single that sounds like the Grave is exactly that's It
sounds bombastic, almost like war like at times. And that's
why Nick the song about the rise and fall of
empires and war you know, so yeah, so yeah, it's
very important to us. But in general, I think to
(18:07):
listen to music, you need that light and change. Yeah. No,
you're definitely right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think if songs like you were saying, I just
say heavy for the sake of being heavy, it just
gets not repetitive, but too consistent and there's no balance.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah. I mean that stuff like that has its place,
but usually just for a time like yeah, I feel
like you're in an air panmdesto, or I really feel
like hearing a motor Head song or you know whatever,
that's true. You know it has its place. But I
think for pure escapism, if it because our music is,
it's not it's not meant to be about a certain
(18:46):
time and place or challenging anyone's perception of any issues.
It's just it's to take you away somewhere and you know,
there you go.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, and the band has always embraced evolution. Is there
anything you haven't tried yet that you'd still like to
explore musically?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I always like to. I mean, I think we've done
a lot of stuff within what music I like, which
is just the darker side of music. It can be
anything as long as it's dark. It can be traditional
folk music, it can be classical music, it can be
goth music, it can be electronic music, it can be heavy,
(19:37):
but it has to be dark, sad, somber. You know.
I have gone through lots of stuff, different styles covering
that type of stuff, and these days I have like
different outlets. Back in the day, I used to put
it all into Paradise Lost, which sometimes worked, sometimes didn't,
(19:57):
depending on who listened to it. I don't really and
it regrets with that. But these days I have kind
of we did a project called Host which is more
the electronic side, goth electronic side, and then I have
a thing called Strigoy that's like kind of horrific and unsettling,
and then it kind of clears the woods for the trees,
(20:20):
you know, so you can see I can see the
core of Paradise Lost in the middle of all this,
you know. So I have a healthy balance, I think
these days.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah, And you've seen gothic and do metal trends
come and go. What do you think has helped Paradise
Lost remains? So timeless through it all.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well, it depends on the time you're talking about, because
we've had our period ups and downs, you know, where
you your music doesn't it's not as relevant in a
certain time, or maybe it comes a little bit too
early or a bit too late for that period. But
I think doing our own things helped, not being part
(21:02):
of a crew like a lot of American bands are.
You know, we kind of I mean years ago we
used to festivals. I remember doing a festival, Dynamoor Festival
and all naturally, and there was loads of American bands.
There was a time around the time when funk metal
came in Yet and always band the high five in
(21:23):
each other backstage and whooping. And I saw an interview
afterwards and someone's asked one of these guys and they said, oh,
Parados Loss. Isn't that English band who just sits in
a circle in a corner talking to themselves? And It's true.
We're kind of very insular. We're just beside observing, you know, studiously.
(21:45):
We don't really get involved in that. So yeah, I
think doing our own thing was a big part of it.
Not being part of too much of any scene. Yeah,
And I can't the rest of it is down to
the fans. I guess whether they dig it or not.
You know, yeah, funk metal.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm trying to think of funk metal band that sounds awful.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Let me think at the time it was a Dog
eat Dog. A few bands went funk. Yeah, a little
bit of funk element into it. It was sort of
early to mid nineties. It was about ninety four ninety five.
Lots of bands went down that route, and then shortly
(22:31):
afterwards the new metal thing here. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, And as after so many years as a band,
do you ever get sick of playing certain songs or
a certain song? Uh?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
In general, there's a few way you just go, yeah,
we're a bit tired of playing this or a bit
tired of playing that. But then you can play it
on a night, Oh and I and the whole audience
are loving it, and then you completely forget that you
go into it with the audience that you're actually liking it.
(23:10):
But yeah, I mean these songs that become part of
your staple thing that were popular and eighty percent of
the audience would be annoyed if he didn't play it. Well, yeah,
you know, so there's so yeah, this is the old
song is the odd song that makes you think oh no,
(23:30):
not that again when you But then when you play it, yeah, certain, nice,
it goes down a storm and you're like, why was
I questioning this? You know? Yeah? Yeah, oh nice.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Nice to know that, you know, you can have a
different perspective or take on a song even if you thought,
you know, you're sick of it, and then you play
it and as you said, the crowd loves it and
you're like, oh, okay, maybe I don't hate it anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah, true. It's it's one of them things that
you have to be in the mood for it, don't you. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And what's the coolest or weirdest thing a fan has
ever given you?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh, there's been quite a few. I mean I remember
Nick getting a painting and it was a really good
painter and they've done a painting of him. Oh it
was like an old master. They've done an amazing job.
And it was in our rehearsal room for years. Wow.
Then it disappeared, so someone stole it. My my my
(24:31):
weirdest is not something that given me. But it was
a tattoo and that I was at a festival somewhere
and I was just walking around the audience and I
was standing talking to someone and they sort of looked
over my shoulder and went like that, look at this.
And I turned around and a girl had I don't
(24:54):
like the phrase, but it's the tramp stamp, the landing pad,
you know. Yeah, but it was my face. But I
have devil's horns. Oh that's cool. I have no idea
why there was no reference. I've never you know, held devils. Yeah, yeah,
(25:16):
kind of strange. And I just thought, wow, that's weird.
Some guys got to look at that.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh that's pretty cool though. I mean, I guess it
would have been weird if it was bad.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
In my head, I was thinking maybe she had a
picture of me done and then regretted she turned it
into a devil. No beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And are there any plans to do Ascension in Australia
that you know of?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Plans? Plans, Yeah, best made plans. It's it's ongoing at
the minute. I know they're talking to promoters and I
know that they're roughly trying to pencil it in for
early next year, so hopefully it's going to come off.
As of course, you'll talk to lots of people in bands.
(26:13):
It's getting increasingly tough because logistics of yes, you know,
who do you pass the cost onto? Things like that?
You have to with Australia being kind of far removed
from everwhere else, you have to tie in with places
on the way to make it viable. So yeah, yeah,
(26:35):
we're fingers crossed where we should. I mean, the iron
something out and we get there early next year hopefully
hope soorry That would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
And is there a memory from your pastime touring here
that sticks out to you?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, there's a lot. Actually, I remember touring there with
Cathedral Ones and we have just it was all fun.
It was all mental every night, really weird. I can't
think at one particular incident there, No, there was, there
was lots of It's mainly stuff I can't talk about
(27:16):
fair enough get canceled these days. Probably just crazy antics
will put it down to that. You know. At the time,
we were all in the prime, and you know, we
had endless amounts of energy and drink and drug fueled
and things going and you know, yeah, so a lot
(27:38):
of fun. Yeah it was great, but I actually really
enjoyed it. I remember the first time I came and
I was like, this is the best parts of England
and the best parts of America. It really is. And
then over the years I've come back and I've got
different places, and I've realized that I like some places
and not others. Yes, some are too and hot for me.
(28:01):
Somewhere more leafy and green and a bit nicer temperature
for me, and things like that. You know. Yeah, from
northern England, heat doesn't mix well with me. You know. No,
I don't blame you.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
It's funny you say that because I've never been to
the UK, but I really want to get over there,
and I sometimes picture like, there's areas in Australia obviously,
as you know that do remind me of what I
think like England especially would look like with its greenery
and rolling hills. But then obviously we have the contrast
of like desert that wouldn't look a thing like the UK.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, there's definitely bits that remind me of of the UK.
I mean, but if you come to the UK, basically,
don't go to London. Everyone goes to London. It's like
the worst place to go. Yeah, there's lots of other
places to go. Go to the Lake District, or you know,
there's lots of areas that you can go to. The
(28:57):
more traditional what you think of a picture book from
England from the Victorian times, there's lots of you know.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, my dad grew up in Oxfordshire and actually doesn't
like London either. Like he's like, it's so it's too
busy and packed and it's gross.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, I mean Oxford is good. It's similar to York.
I live near York, York, very similar area where it's
like battlements from Roman times and then yeah, and then
big big cathedrals and things like that. You know, it's
it's very nice.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Beautiful, beautiful and finally, last question, misery is still at
the heart of paradise Lost sound. Why do you think
dark music remains so powerful and strangely comforting for so
many listeners.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Because he's evocative? You know, it's many times all of
you have been asked, why do you like this music?
But doesn't it doesn't it make you miserable? It's like, no,
if I some really dark music, it makes me very
very happy. It's evocating, it makes you feel something, It
tugs at your heartstrings, it gives you the shivers. Happy
(30:08):
music doesn't do that for me. At all. You know,
it's fortunate for me that it's a it's a side
thing as well, that it's not a mainstream thing, because
I don't think I like it if it was a
mainstream thing, any of this. You know. I like the
fact that ninety percent of the population just like dancing
(30:29):
in a field in sunshine and happy music. Good get
rid of them, you know, corner over here with all
the dark stuff, you know. So yeah, yeah, I think
it's because it's evocative and certain people are drawn to that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree. I'd much rather listen
to like the heavier, darker stuff from like The Cure.
They've got happier stuff too, but I like their darker
stuff rather than anything pop that most people like these days.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
So yeah, we're talking about the day and airport. I
can't talk to her about Oh our drummer, Jeff, I've
certainly been you see The Cure recently. I'm not really
the Cure, but I thought it was an amazing show.
He said, I really liked that early stuff. Yes, said, yeah,
the early stuff is great. And he said, you heard
the new album. I said no, I said, the new
(31:16):
album is great. It's more like the early stuff. Yeah,
so I didn't like the harpy stuff, but that's what
made him popular, I guess.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yes, yeah, no, definitely, Oh Greg, I can talk to
you forever. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
We love Ascension. We can't wait to hopefully see he soon.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Stuff. Yeah. Thanks,
I am Greg from Paradise Lost.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You've produced Ascension yourself. How in wearing both the guitarists
and producer had to shape this record differently from past albums.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
It was remarkably similar because over the last few records,
I've kind of done most of it, a lot of it. Anyway.
The producer is not producers these days are not really
like producers of your of like the seventies, eighties, early nineties, however,
where they kind of got involved in the song structures
(00:33):
of the songwriting. There was shitloads of pre production. For
the last however long, it's been more like you're just
asking someone to find the sound that you've got in
your head. Ye. Over, I don't know how many of
the last few years I've known how to gets that anyway,
(00:53):
you know, So it's like it was just taking a
person out of the mix. Really. The only difference being
it's a bit more work and there's a bit more
responsibility on your shoulders because you know, if it's wrong,
people can come to you and say you fucked up,
(01:13):
you know. But apart from the workload, not that not
that much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, And I guess it totally makes sense as well,
for someone in the band to produce the album, you've
already got a clear sense of what how things sort
of should sound.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Like, I suppose, yeah, And I mean again, last few albums,
most of the guitar parts and things like that, or
keyboard parts or backing vocals, things like that I've been
done in demo stages and just end up getting used
on the album. So it wasn't a great stretch. And yeah,
(01:56):
I mean, I've had my own studio for quite a
few years, and it's nice to have the time to
spend to do all everything how you want it to
be done. But it's a double edged sword because you
can kind of disappear down rabbit hole and end up
chasing your tail and come back to the initial idea
after months of messing around, you know. So with this one,
(02:24):
like about three years ago, I had half the album
written and I just scrapped it all because I wasn't
feeling it. It took a year ago and then felt
inspired again, so started again and this time around it worked. Yeah,
But you know, you can't you can't force it. I mean,
all the all the all these production tools that have
(02:44):
cropped up in the last twenty years, or whatever. They're
still only as good as whatever you put in it,
you know, so we still have to have the ideas
and the the spark there to make something, you know. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And do you find producing your own music makes you
more obsessive over little details or do you find it
liberating to have that control?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, a few years ago I would have said it
was liberating because it took a lot a lot of
the financial sting out of recording. You only had to
go in for the studio to record your drums, maybe
a nice big drum room or something. The rest of
it you can do at home. So in that respect, yes,
But like I said, I think people can get to
(03:33):
anal about it and music, I mean metal music, especially
the music that was supposed to scare your grandparents, that
was supposed to be so rebellious, is now more sanitized
than pop music. Pop music is more daring, you know.
So it's kind of weird that it's gone like that,
and is I think the reason it has is because
(03:55):
everyone's chasing perfection, so everyone sounds the same. It's all
of us, volume wive, it all has the same similar sounds,
and the problem with that is you get rid of
all the character, and character stems from imperfections. So bands
(04:17):
back in the day, the reason they all sounded so
different is because they were limited by budget, what the
guitar pedal was, what the guitar was, your you know,
circumstances where you grew up, you didn't have lots of
external influencers hitting you, lots of different factors. And I
(04:38):
think it's just with modern day metal production, it's become
everyone's almost copying each other and it just sounds very safe.
And it's hard to break that actually, because people don't
want to hear things that aren't safe or perfect as
it were. But on this record, A he tried my
(05:00):
best to get some character in there. For instance, with
the rhythm guitar sound and the lead guitar sounds. I
did the opposite of what most metal producers are doing now.
They're trying to get rid of all this mid honk,
this boxiness and the guitars. And I like that. I
like it, like it's been mite from the back or something.
You know. It's so yeah, I tried to get on it.
(05:23):
I don't know how successful it was. I guess time
will tell, but the intention was there, you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Know, Yeah, well, to me, it's successful. I've heard it
all and I love it, of course. And do you
find did you find that creating this album felt more
like you were creating it, especially in regards to playing
it live, Like does it sound like more like how
(05:49):
am I trying to say, like an album that would
transplate Weld live?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I would say for the most part it is. I mean,
with all our records, we do a certain amount of
songs where we think, oh, this will be great to
play live, and then other ones that become more of
a studio thing where it's more about the atmosphere. You think, oh,
this would be good to listen to on headphones and
(06:18):
get lost in it. Escapism, you know, it's something that
paints a picture in your mind. So it just depends
on the song. I don't think as an albums it's
any different live. What maybe there's a couple of songs
that are kind of more up tempo, you know, that
would whip you up in an audience, up in a
(06:40):
live situation, which is kind of unusual for us in
a way because we do like our slow stuff. In fact,
my favorite song the album is the slowest song, usually
called Salvation. So I say yeah. I mean when I
when I start getting this album together, the core of it,
I thought, I really want this to sound like an
(07:02):
autumn winter Christmasy album. Yeah, and that's kind of what
it's shaped into almost.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I get that from listening to it
as well. There's definitely you guys have balanced that. There
is still some slight heaviness there, but you've definitely balanced
it with that harmonizing more melodic.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah. Well, it's getting the catchy points across. I mean
a good example of that is the opening track Serpent
on the Cross is there's a recurring melody in that.
That's what's it now? Well weird, like I can't remember
it right now. It started off as a vocal thing
(07:44):
I was, I was mess around doing vocal lines. Yeah,
I came up with that and I said, I said
to Nick RSin, I said, can you try this out
over over this this riff, and he said, oh, it's
going to sound better on your guitar. So I did
it on guitar and he was right and it just
worked that way. So we kind of throw things back
(08:05):
and forwards melody wise, and it's all about that eoworm,
you know. Yeah. So the structures are very important, that
the dynamics are very important, because if everything's heavy, nothing's heavy,
you know. So we try and do all that, but
(08:26):
we always try and get and this comes from listening
to a lot of film soundtracks in my youth. I
think there's also a recurring theme that pulls you back
into this. Even if the music totally changes, You've got
this recurring little melody that comes back and draws you
back to the main point, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, And do you ever feel pressure to top
a previous album or is it more about exploring what
feels authentic in the moment.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I don't feel like we need to top artistically because
each album is different. We've always tried to when we
come to write album, think right, forget everything else. What
would we do if we were a new band now
and do that? But I think from a people that
(09:17):
surround us, management, record label, maybe even some fans have
certain expectations and it's on them, unfortunately, not on us.
You know, we we do our thing. If it doesn't resonate,
then that's just the way it is, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, No, definitely good answer.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I think you're so right.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You're creating music for yourself then as well, and obviously
you know your fans in that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
But for yourself and what feels right for you, guys, well,
it's actually not for the fans at all. Yeah, you
can't think like that. I don't believe you can think
of because if you do, you'll just end up repeating
yourself or doing something that's a parody of yourself, you know.
And that's something we've always been very aware of, given
(10:05):
from when we're like, first record is treading this fine
line because what we do is kind of pompous in
a way. So so we've always had this line where
we said, weep openly at the shea pomposity and it's
so it's mournful and bombastic, which is good, but there's
(10:27):
a fine line into cheese and parody, which we're more
aware of than anyone of any listener. I say we're
doing to the nth degree. We're like, is this crossing
the line territory? Get rid of it? You know. So yeah,
so that's that's one of our things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, And your lind guitar work, especially on tracks like
Tyrants Serenade, always carries so much emotional weight. Do these
melodies come in intuitively or through experimentation.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Kind of a bit of both. It's usually just messing around,
so experimentation, but then it's I know, what feeling I'm
trying to evoke, and if it doesn't do that for me,
then it's not doing it. Yeah, I still have to
(11:24):
work on it till it's doing the thing that I
wanted it to. And like I said, some start, I
was just humming a tune along. You know, you hear
a bit of music, you hum along to it, it's like, ah,
that would make a good lead line, or you know,
sometimes the lead line actually comes comes first and then
you think what will go over that. Yeah, I've not
(11:46):
been I'm not really into widly widdly stuff. So it's
always been about less is more. Yeah, and again that's
that's that's down to the listener, whether it is successful
or resonates or not.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
You know, was there anything you guys scrapped that you
now think back on and go, oh, maybe we could
have made that work.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, No, we're actually that's one of the things that
we do is getting rid of the So for instance,
we I mean it's five years since the previous record
to this record. It's quite a long time. But about
three years ago I had half of it written. It
(12:35):
just wasn't sitting well with me. I kept trying different
iterations of these songs. I had about six songs, and
it just wasn't sitting. I was driving myself and saying
with it. I just said, look, I'm just gonna scrap
it all. And I scrapped it and deleted the whole
lot so that I could never use it again because
it was doing my heading. And then I took her
(12:56):
out from writing completely because I wasn't inspired. And then
we did a re recording of an older album, It's
Icon thirty thing, which was thirty years since one of
our records, and it kind of put me in a
different headspace and I felt all inspired again. And then
it was just like bang bang bang over autumn winter
(13:17):
last year. All came thick and fast, interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So it really was that was like a physical thing
that gave you inspiration at that time, because I was
going to ask, you know what made you suddenly have
that inspiration back?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, it was. I don't know. I can't say it's
all that, but I know that it definitely tripped something
in me and gave me a clearer idea of what
I wanted to do, and also with the whole package,
the artwork, the titled that what the songs are about,
(13:56):
we kind of went right back to brass tacks, which
is the aim of Paradise Lost came from the book,
the themes of the book, the religious psychonography, the striving
for enlightenment or ascension or whatever, you know, this struggle,
and the whole thing is kind of centered around that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You know, Yeah, definitely. I like that you mentioned the
album Arn't there as well? It's incredible. Can you tell
us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, well, it's a painting that I liked for quite
a while. I think I've got a print of it
on my wall. Actually, well, I can show it, guess
Oh there. It is so beautiful. I love it. I
love this piece of artwork. And when we were decided
on Ascension as a title, that kind of sprung to mind.
(14:47):
But I know that the painting isn't about that. It's
called The Court of Death by George Frederick Wats, who
was a Victorian painter, and I well, I just said,
you know, I looked at the painting and I was
listening to some of the demos that I did, and
I thought, this actually really fits because the central figure
(15:10):
looks really calm, like they've achieved this enlightenment, and the
figures around looked kind of full of grief or in turmoil,
and that kind of rings true with the album, you know,
the album. And also the colors to be a bit
(15:31):
little more based. The colors, the baroque reds and greens
and gold were just this christmasy feel the album. And yeah,
so I got in touch with them a girl of
our management office, Vicky, and I said, look, this is
the I really like this image. I don't know if
we get rights to anything. She said, I was actually
(15:52):
at the Watts Gallery about three weeks ago on holiday.
She sent me a picture of her like this in
front of the painting. The original is fucking huge. It's massive,
hanging from a ceiling, and she said, I know to call,
so she called and it was really smooth. Usually we
(16:12):
have trouble getting artwork together on packages, but yeah, just
everything clicked in the place. So wow, we're really pleased
with that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, that's crazy, that's awesome, and it does it fits
so well and kind of leads me into my next
question as well. Actually, which we have spoken about a bit,
but the new album has moments of stillness and reflection
alongside heaviness. How important is that contrast to your songwriting
and songs.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Well, I think it's important in general any band to
have light and shade because if everything's heavy, nothing's heavy,
it's all just on a level. So it's important for that.
I think it's extra important for us because we're trying
to evoke imagery. It's escape. So I mean, I've always
(17:04):
a lot of people like this, but a lot of
people aren't. When I listen to music, I think a
bit in visual terms, So where someone would say, oh,
that's really heavy, I will think, oh, it sounds more
like a storm coming over the horizon, you know, things
like that. So I try and do that when we're
making music. So to do that, you have to have
(17:25):
light strokes with the heavy strokes, you know, and it
makes all everything more dramatic and everything more effective when
you do that. If you have these real, somber, low
key parts and then you have this in tobacco almost
type thing, you know so well. I mean the first
(17:47):
single that sounds like the Grave is exactly that's It
sounds bombastic, almost like war like at times. And that's
why Nick the song about the rise and fall of
empires and war you know, so yeah, so yeah, it's
very important to us. But in general, I think to
(18:07):
listen to music, you need that light and change. Yeah. No,
you're definitely right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think if songs like you were saying, I just
say heavy for the sake of being heavy, it just
gets not repetitive, but too consistent and there's no balance.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah. I mean that stuff like that has its place,
but usually just for a time like yeah, I feel
like you're in an air panmdesto, or I really feel
like hearing a motor Head song or you know whatever,
that's true. You know it has its place. But I
think for pure escapism, if it because our music is,
it's not it's not meant to be about a certain
(18:46):
time and place or challenging anyone's perception of any issues.
It's just it's to take you away somewhere and you know,
there you go.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, and the band has always embraced evolution. Is there
anything you haven't tried yet that you'd still like to
explore musically?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I always like to. I mean, I think we've done
a lot of stuff within what music I like, which
is just the darker side of music. It can be
anything as long as it's dark. It can be traditional
folk music, it can be classical music, it can be
goth music, it can be electronic music, it can be heavy,
(19:37):
but it has to be dark, sad, somber. You know.
I have gone through lots of stuff, different styles covering
that type of stuff, and these days I have like
different outlets. Back in the day, I used to put
it all into Paradise Lost, which sometimes worked, sometimes didn't,
(19:57):
depending on who listened to it. I don't really and
it regrets with that. But these days I have kind
of we did a project called Host which is more
the electronic side, goth electronic side, and then I have
a thing called Strigoy that's like kind of horrific and unsettling,
and then it kind of clears the woods for the trees,
(20:20):
you know, so you can see I can see the
core of Paradise Lost in the middle of all this,
you know. So I have a healthy balance, I think
these days.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah, And you've seen gothic and do metal trends
come and go. What do you think has helped Paradise
Lost remains? So timeless through it all.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well, it depends on the time you're talking about, because
we've had our period ups and downs, you know, where
you your music doesn't it's not as relevant in a
certain time, or maybe it comes a little bit too
early or a bit too late for that period. But
I think doing our own things helped, not being part
(21:02):
of a crew like a lot of American bands are.
You know, we kind of I mean years ago we
used to festivals. I remember doing a festival, Dynamoor Festival
and all naturally, and there was loads of American bands.
There was a time around the time when funk metal
came in Yet and always band the high five in
(21:23):
each other backstage and whooping. And I saw an interview
afterwards and someone's asked one of these guys and they said, oh,
Parados Loss. Isn't that English band who just sits in
a circle in a corner talking to themselves? And It's true.
We're kind of very insular. We're just beside observing, you know, studiously.
(21:45):
We don't really get involved in that. So yeah, I
think doing our own thing was a big part of it.
Not being part of too much of any scene. Yeah,
And I can't the rest of it is down to
the fans. I guess whether they dig it or not.
You know, yeah, funk metal.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm trying to think of funk metal band that sounds awful.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Let me think at the time it was a Dog
eat Dog. A few bands went funk. Yeah, a little
bit of funk element into it. It was sort of
early to mid nineties. It was about ninety four ninety five.
Lots of bands went down that route, and then shortly
(22:31):
afterwards the new metal thing here. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, And as after so many years as a band,
do you ever get sick of playing certain songs or
a certain song? Uh?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
In general, there's a few way you just go, yeah,
we're a bit tired of playing this or a bit
tired of playing that. But then you can play it
on a night, Oh and I and the whole audience
are loving it, and then you completely forget that you
go into it with the audience that you're actually liking it.
(23:10):
But yeah, I mean these songs that become part of
your staple thing that were popular and eighty percent of
the audience would be annoyed if he didn't play it. Well, yeah,
you know, so there's so yeah, this is the old
song is the odd song that makes you think oh no,
(23:30):
not that again when you But then when you play it, yeah, certain, nice,
it goes down a storm and you're like, why was
I questioning this? You know? Yeah? Yeah, oh nice.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Nice to know that, you know, you can have a
different perspective or take on a song even if you thought,
you know, you're sick of it, and then you play
it and as you said, the crowd loves it and
you're like, oh, okay, maybe I don't hate it anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah, true. It's it's one of them things that
you have to be in the mood for it, don't you. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And what's the coolest or weirdest thing a fan has
ever given you?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh, there's been quite a few. I mean I remember
Nick getting a painting and it was a really good
painter and they've done a painting of him. Oh it
was like an old master. They've done an amazing job.
And it was in our rehearsal room for years. Wow.
Then it disappeared, so someone stole it. My my my
(24:31):
weirdest is not something that given me. But it was
a tattoo and that I was at a festival somewhere
and I was just walking around the audience and I
was standing talking to someone and they sort of looked
over my shoulder and went like that, look at this.
And I turned around and a girl had I don't
(24:54):
like the phrase, but it's the tramp stamp, the landing pad,
you know. Yeah, but it was my face. But I
have devil's horns. Oh that's cool. I have no idea
why there was no reference. I've never you know, held devils. Yeah, yeah,
(25:16):
kind of strange. And I just thought, wow, that's weird.
Some guys got to look at that.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh that's pretty cool though. I mean, I guess it
would have been weird if it was bad.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
In my head, I was thinking maybe she had a
picture of me done and then regretted she turned it
into a devil. No beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And are there any plans to do Ascension in Australia
that you know of?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Plans? Plans, Yeah, best made plans. It's it's ongoing at
the minute. I know they're talking to promoters and I
know that they're roughly trying to pencil it in for
early next year, so hopefully it's going to come off.
As of course, you'll talk to lots of people in bands.
(26:13):
It's getting increasingly tough because logistics of yes, you know,
who do you pass the cost onto? Things like that?
You have to with Australia being kind of far removed
from everwhere else, you have to tie in with places
on the way to make it viable. So yeah, yeah,
(26:35):
we're fingers crossed where we should. I mean, the iron
something out and we get there early next year hopefully
hope soorry That would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
And is there a memory from your pastime touring here
that sticks out to you?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, there's a lot. Actually, I remember touring there with
Cathedral Ones and we have just it was all fun.
It was all mental every night, really weird. I can't
think at one particular incident there, No, there was, there
was lots of It's mainly stuff I can't talk about
(27:16):
fair enough get canceled these days. Probably just crazy antics
will put it down to that. You know. At the time,
we were all in the prime, and you know, we
had endless amounts of energy and drink and drug fueled
and things going and you know, yeah, so a lot
(27:38):
of fun. Yeah it was great, but I actually really
enjoyed it. I remember the first time I came and
I was like, this is the best parts of England
and the best parts of America. It really is. And
then over the years I've come back and I've got
different places, and I've realized that I like some places
and not others. Yes, some are too and hot for me.
(28:01):
Somewhere more leafy and green and a bit nicer temperature
for me, and things like that. You know. Yeah, from
northern England, heat doesn't mix well with me. You know. No,
I don't blame you.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
It's funny you say that because I've never been to
the UK, but I really want to get over there,
and I sometimes picture like, there's areas in Australia obviously,
as you know that do remind me of what I
think like England especially would look like with its greenery
and rolling hills. But then obviously we have the contrast
of like desert that wouldn't look a thing like the UK.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, there's definitely bits that remind me of of the UK.
I mean, but if you come to the UK, basically,
don't go to London. Everyone goes to London. It's like
the worst place to go. Yeah, there's lots of other
places to go. Go to the Lake District, or you know,
there's lots of areas that you can go to. The
(28:57):
more traditional what you think of a picture book from
England from the Victorian times, there's lots of you know.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, my dad grew up in Oxfordshire and actually doesn't
like London either. Like he's like, it's so it's too
busy and packed and it's gross.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, I mean Oxford is good. It's similar to York.
I live near York, York, very similar area where it's
like battlements from Roman times and then yeah, and then
big big cathedrals and things like that. You know, it's
it's very nice.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Beautiful, beautiful and finally, last question, misery is still at
the heart of paradise Lost sound. Why do you think
dark music remains so powerful and strangely comforting for so
many listeners.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Because he's evocative? You know, it's many times all of
you have been asked, why do you like this music?
But doesn't it doesn't it make you miserable? It's like, no,
if I some really dark music, it makes me very
very happy. It's evocating, it makes you feel something, It
tugs at your heartstrings, it gives you the shivers. Happy
(30:08):
music doesn't do that for me. At all. You know,
it's fortunate for me that it's a it's a side
thing as well, that it's not a mainstream thing, because
I don't think I like it if it was a
mainstream thing, any of this. You know. I like the
fact that ninety percent of the population just like dancing
(30:29):
in a field in sunshine and happy music. Good get
rid of them, you know, corner over here with all
the dark stuff, you know. So yeah, yeah, I think
it's because it's evocative and certain people are drawn to that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree. I'd much rather listen
to like the heavier, darker stuff from like The Cure.
They've got happier stuff too, but I like their darker
stuff rather than anything pop that most people like these days.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
So yeah, we're talking about the day and airport. I
can't talk to her about Oh our drummer, Jeff, I've
certainly been you see The Cure recently. I'm not really
the Cure, but I thought it was an amazing show.
He said, I really liked that early stuff. Yes, said, yeah,
the early stuff is great. And he said, you heard
the new album. I said no, I said, the new
(31:16):
album is great. It's more like the early stuff. Yeah,
so I didn't like the harpy stuff, but that's what
made him popular, I guess.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yes, yeah, no, definitely, Oh Greg, I can talk to
you forever. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
We love Ascension. We can't wait to hopefully see he soon.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Stuff. Yeah. Thanks,
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