September 27, 2022 • 43 mins
I’m bringing my friend and podcast production assistant, Leigh Kramer into the HER living room! Leigh and I talk about our journey from internet to IRL friends and how we transitioned into working together. Listen as we give some tips on how to work well with your friends and talk about why Leigh is one of my favorite cussing friends.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to her living room. And let
me tell you, we have a guest in the living room.
But it feels almost weird to call her a guest
because she's part of the reason why this living room
is put together. So I cannot wait to have a
conversation with her. Today. We are talking to author of
(01:01):
a storied life, White Sox fan who loves books and
it's one of my favorite custin friends, Lee Kramer, WHOA
we had to really watch me, like do that? You
have to watch me do that? Just now you know
this is this is like a whole other side of you.
I only only get to hear the recorded versions. Lee.
(01:25):
First of all, thank you so much for being in
the living room as well as helping to put the
living room together. So I was about to say I
couldn't figure out if I was like, y'all, Lee is
our guest in the living room. Also she lives here.
Then I was like, wait, I guess that would make
it sound like we lived together, which you know we could,
but we don't mean in the metaphorical her living room.
(01:45):
I do kind of live there, So I think that's good.
It's a it's it's a home. We're there together, you
and I and Matt. I guess we should explain that
my official title is the administrative and podcast production Assistant. Yes,
because I was about to say that Lee is not
only my good friend, but we also work together, and
(02:06):
we work together in in general ways that Lee fixes
my work life as my assistant and as the production
assistant for this podcast. Lee, Oh my goodness, pretty much
anything that's organized about this y'all is because of Lee.
I just want you all to know that. I just
want you to know that that's true. So Lee, I'm
really excited for us to be on the podcast because
(02:30):
you and I obviously talked through almost every episode. What
am I saying? Every episode of this podcast, you and
I talk about it, whether it's in the before process
or in the after process. And we've been doing quite
a few friend episodes in the last year or so,
and particularly the Internet friends episodes that we've done the
last few months, and Lee and I were laughing because
(02:51):
we too started out as internet friends, and I would
love to just go into that story a little bit, Lee,
of how you and I met. What's our what is
our internet friends story? Well, it's I feel like it's
a little nebulous because we were writing for the same
(03:14):
website and so we connected there. There was some kind
of is it a Facebook group for all of the writers.
I feel like that's how I first came across you,
and then I guess through the group, or maybe just
from reading each other's stuff on that site and then
maybe following each other on Twitter. Yep, I think how
(03:38):
we started getting to know each other better. But I don't.
I don't have like I don't remember like our first
interaction or like, at what point I was like not
my fellow writer Amina, but my internet friend Amina. Just
I don't know, like do you have any early memories.
(04:00):
It's like feel it's like I don't know sometimes what
the internet friends. It's like you don't really know I
at what point you're like this person is cool, to like,
oh I want to be friends with them. It's just
kind of evolves that way. Very magical. It is magical
because I do I do remember that Facebook group, and
I do remember at one point somebody started a social
(04:23):
media thread where it was like, hey, we should all
follow each other, and I do remember following you then
and then being like okay, and like looking at the
tweets and somehow, either through conversations in that group or
through your Twitter. I knew that you were in Nashville then,
(04:44):
and I was coming there quite a bit. But when
we met in person at an event, I I don't know,
it was like when I saw your face and maybe
did you DM me? Why did I not go back
through our d M history to see if they were
still there? Well? That was this was like several years ago,
so it would be a lot of it just to
(05:05):
go through, UM. I may I'm yeah, I may have
DMDU to say that I was going to be there.
That is something that I would do. Like if I
if I knew that someone was going to be in
town UM and I felt like reasonably friendly enough with them,
I would probably say, like you should meet up, or
(05:27):
let's make sure we say hi, or do you have
time to go get coffee or whatever? So that is possible. Yeah,
I feel like I feel like that might have been
at least I feel like there was at least a
message from you that said, Hey, I know you're going
to be in town and I live here. I feel
like there's at least that. But I feel like I
felt so pleasantly surprised when I actually saw you there
(05:50):
at the event. I think we actually walked out of
the event. It was you and I and another friend.
I think we actually walked out of the event like
in the hallway, all the all the giggles and just
oh my gosh, like a like, like, we're real people.
We could see how tall each other was or in
(06:12):
my case not, but I am short. I mean it's
tall theory. That's true. That's true. Um, yeah, it was.
I think it was. It was just fun to actually
put a like a name or an avatar and a face,
like a real face together and to see that we
(06:34):
are real people, and also just enough conversation where you're like, yeah,
I could I really do like this person and they
are who like they are in real life, who they
present themselves to be online. Oh that's a good point
right there, Lee, That's a good point right there, because
I think in making online connections, you sort of get
(06:55):
this comfort online around some of the people that you
enjoy their tweets or maybe you talk to them online
and stuff, and the feeling when you meet them of like, oh,
that same feeling that I have about you online. I
also have that feeling when I see you in person.
Oh you articulated that in such a great way, because
I'm like, that's totally how I felt like, oh, yes,
(07:16):
look at you. Yes, yes, that same I feel like
and I think we I think we only had like
it was a very small amount of time because I
can't remember if I had to go back on stage
to do something. I can't remember that part, but I
remember it was a very quick like my phone, your phone,
you know, kind of Yeah. I feel like we took
we took a selfie and I think I think you
(07:39):
introduced me to your mom here called hem right, I
think my mom and my sister. I think it was
my sister. Like, I feel like you had a few
people that were that were with you, um, and then yeah,
it must have just been like a really quick break
in between stuff, and I think we were all kind
of like, can we just like skip the rest of
(07:59):
the see and just okay, just hang out? Okay. I
really wished I really probably if I This is the
thing about as you know, you get older and more
into your like, um, I don't really care what people
be thinking phase of your life. You know, now that
we're in our forties, I feel like me and my
forties would have been like, I'm done here anyways, do
(08:20):
you want to go get something to eat? Or I
feel like I would have done that now, but then
I sort of felt like, Oh, the session starting, But
now I would have been like, oh, are you hungry,
I'm gonna I'm gonna walk back in there and get
my bag, and then everyone's going to know that I'm leaving,
and I don't. I don't want to be here for
the rest of this. I mean I totally would have
left because I had a free ticket, so I mean
I was literally only there to like see a couple
(08:41):
of friends, and it was not really it was not
really my scene. Please please and thank you. Okay, let
me ask you about this, and you you spoke to
this a little bit. I wanted to ask you, what
is it you're looking for when you meet an online
friend in person? Is it that's that feeling of comfort?
(09:03):
I mean, I know, I feel like when we're if
we were talking about like a dating situation, you'd say
you're looking for this chemistry and maybe it is still chemistry,
but just friendship. Like what is that like for you?
What are you looking to see when you meet someone
in real life that you know online. I yeah, chemistry
is probably still a good way to put it, because
I mean, I guess when you think of friends, maybe
(09:24):
you don't think of chemistry so much, but like do
you vibe with each other? Like are you on the
same wavelength? And um is does the conversation flow as
easily in person as it does when you're just like
texting with them? I think with all of my internet friends,
whether it's online or in real life, I am looking
(09:47):
for that connection, like what are the things that we
have in common? Are we learning from each other? Are
we laughing or supporting each other? And so when I
meet them in real life, I just want to make
sure that at ease is still there. Well, I love
that word, the ease. We love a friendship with ease.
(10:10):
It doesn't always happen like there are There are a
couple of times that I have met someone and the
conversation is more stilted, and I don't I don't always
know what that is. I think in most of those
cases they approached me to hang out instead of the
other way around. Not not always, that's probably not not here.
(10:30):
But I would say like they were people that I
wouldn't have necessarily thought to get together with um, because
there's certainly been internet friends that have asked me to
hang out that I would have totally asked them first
if we had been at the same place. So but yeah,
I think that where they where I felt less connected
to the online friendship, then I think it makes sense
(10:53):
that I would feel less connected once we met face
to face, or they just had a different expectation of
who I was as or wanted. Because I used to
be a social worker, I think sometimes people I think
that they want some free therapy, and I offer that
I do not offer those services, thank you, So that
(11:13):
can be a little awkward to kind of redirect that conversation.
And I feel like, I don't know where you thought
that I was gonna do that for you, But no, okay,
like no, no, thank you, No, we don't want to
provide those services, especially since it's draining to do when
you when when when that's happening to you, when someone
(11:34):
has that expectation of you in a personal type of setting,
that's no, no thank you, right right, And it's not
I mean I feel like they probably think that, like
we're friends, so I'm just gonna share, like what I've
been going through, and I'm like, well we are We're
not really that kind of friend, Okay, okay, Like if
we were real friends, sure, I don't totally want to
(11:57):
know like what someone is going through or what they've
been through. But but I'm also not not going to
give them free therapy either. Like that's very different to
support a friend versus looking for that level of um expertise.
If you want that expertise, I don't not license for
that anymore. But you're gonna have to do more than
(12:18):
pay for my lunch. So okay, okay, please, I'm gonna
tell you what I what I felt like solidified for me,
like Lea's my friend now. Lee reached out to me
and was like, Hey, my birthday is coming up. I
was thinking about making a trip to Atlanta. Can I
(12:39):
stay with y'all? And I like, I think back on
this all the timely because it was like you were
asking me that there was there were a few things
that made me be like yes to all of the
things that Lee's saying in this message. First of all,
it was sort of like you caught me in this
window of time where I want to say, by the
(13:02):
time your birthday had come up. I don't think we'd
been in our house even a year. I think you
were one of the first like house guests that we
ever had, and we'd never had a guest room either
to have house guests. So the thought of being like,
we're in this new home. Sure, and then you said
(13:22):
something about maybe you'll remember this, but there was something
you said about why you wanted to get out of Nashville.
You want you or maybe you did say why you
wanted to get out Nashville. You wanted to go someplace
else for your birthday, and I think you were turning
thirty five. Am I remembering that right? And I have
a lot of like I have a lot of strong
(13:43):
feelings around what can be monumental birthdays in general, Like
I have strong feelings around people celebrating that, and then
I just have strong feelings around birthdays. I just feel like,
you know, you writing and being like like, I don't
know if you had written and just said, you know,
shit is crazy in Nashville and I just want to
weekend in Atlanta, like what I have been equally like, yeah,
(14:06):
come on, maybe I would have, but something about you
saying it was your birthday that you wanted to just
be in like a different environment. All the layers of
that had me like, yes, Lee, come to Atlanta. We
can think of fun things that you can do because
it's your birthday, you know. And so I just said
you asked, and I just said yeah, and you just
(14:26):
came on. Do you remember Do you remember what was
in your mind when you were when you were reaching
out to me to ask that. Yeah, I mean not really.
I I definitely wanted to not be in Nashville for
my birthday. I just wanted a change of pace and
and I think like the year before that birthday had
(14:48):
been kind of disappointing, and so I think I just
was like, I just got to get out of town
for this one for thirty five. And then I was thinking, well,
like where, like what's within driving distance that way be
fun or like who do I know? And then I
was kind of like, well I could, I could go
back to Atlanta and then maybe I can see what
the mean like I don't know, it just it is
(15:12):
kind of wild when I think back, because we've really
just seen each other that brief amount of time at
that conference, and so that's a pretty big jump to
go to can I stay at your house. I also
think I probably gave you a lot of caveats and
being like it's okay if it doesn't work out, or
like you know, yeah, But I'm also someone that it
(15:35):
will just kind of be like, well, I'm just gonna
ask and see, like see what they say. I will
often go visit an internet friend that I've never spent
any time with in person and just kind of be like,
let's see what happens, which hasn't burned me yet, so okay,
(16:13):
I was like sure. And when you came and stayed
with us that weekend, first of all, I mean I
have had a lot of joy getting to know you
because you are a person that has like how can
I describe it, Lee, It's like you have a lot
of um, wonderful layers to you, and even all the
(16:34):
years I've been friends with you, there is always something
that we end up talking about that I'm like, hmm,
I didn't know Lee liked that, or I'm like I
didn't know she'd be into that, or whatever it is.
You know, you have these like you have these wonderful
elements of like surprise. You know that I'm like, oh, so,
like when you came that weekend and we were like,
(16:56):
what do you like to eat? We're trying to think
of some places we can go together, and what do
you like to drink? Matt? Matt was the one because
between the three of us, Matt and Lee handle their
alcohol much better than I do. So Matt was like,
what do you like to drink? What about this? What
about this? He was like naming different things, and Lee
was like, it's gin for me. I was just like,
(17:17):
I am here for everything about this, Like I just
would I mean, I don't know what my mind would
have expected you were gonna say, Lee, but there was
just something so I don't know, it's felt something so
like classy but cussing lady that you were like, it's
gin for me. Who cares about why no one needs champagne?
(17:38):
It's gin for me. I feel like this is the
best description of myself that I've ever I've ever heard.
It was so fantastic. I was like, oh, yes, it's
jin it's gin for her. Go on, Lee, what else?
And we just I mean, we had a lot of
fun that weekend just thinking of places that we enjoyed.
(17:59):
And after you told us, like some types of food
you like or things that you might do, things that
you thought you might like to do, and getting to
like go and do those things, and then because we're
both introverts, also being like, is this the time that
you would rather just sit down and not have anything
to do? Yeah? I remember, it just had It was
a quick visit, but it had a really good flow
(18:21):
to it, and it wasn't like we totally could have
torn it up and done a lot more. But that's
not what I was not what I was looking for.
Just wanted to be in a different place and just
to be able to get to know you and Matt well,
I mean you better, but Matt at all I didn't
write before and now here we are all these years later.
(18:43):
Oh my gosh, because I was thinking about the other
times that you've come to visit us, and of course
since we started working together, some of those were sort
of like we'd have a little bit of work and
then we'd be like, okay, we're done with that. Now
a library, a bookstore, a down'tut or whatever it was,
you know, we could get into. And so I kind
of feel like every time you come to visit it
(19:04):
still has a little bit of the rhythm of what
our first visit together was it's definitely like, what's this
food that we're trying to eat? Also, what's the time
we're gonna have that we're gonna do nothing in case
activities have overstimulated me. Yeah, or just like sitting on
your couch and talking. It's like we don't have to
go out to have a good time. But yeah, I
(19:28):
don't know. Oh man, now I'm really sad that we
haven't been able to see each other. It's normally at
least once a year, I think. So far, we've almost
every year up until the pandemic, of course had that time,
and so we've There have been several moments, y'all personal
moments between Lee and I and professionally where I've been
like Lee, like a professional thing we had, you know,
(19:49):
we had some winds happened professionally that I wanted to
be like, Ah, we're supposed to be able to eat
food together right now, and I hate it that we
get you know. And then sometimes personally I'd be like, oh,
I just want to make you color greens leave and
though I don't even know if you eat color greens,
but I want to make them and sit there with you.
(20:11):
It will always correct me up. That is like that
is your go to um like color greens. It's my
big fix it. It's my like, it's my like, well,
something's going on. I guess I need to make ten
pans of color greens. I don't know. I'm just like
that just feels like a thing that I guess because
it's a dish you make that you kind of have
to stew and you know it cooks for a while
(20:34):
and love and comfort. Yeah, I think maybe that's why
it's in my mind. But y'all, y'all will not believe
the amount of times and I'm like, Lee, I just
wish I could make you some collar greens and we'll
be like, I don't know if that's what I want,
but I hear the sentiment behind what you're saying and
I do receive that. Okay, So Lee, after us being
(20:54):
online friends, then we became friends in real life, then
we started working together. And this is a thing that
we really wanted to center this episode on because I
know some of you may also be in situations where
you work with friends or I've also had people say, oh,
my friend and I are thinking about starting this business together,
or we're in consideration of working together. And I have
(21:16):
to say, I am so proud of both of us
that we have managed to work together, you know, as
as much as we work, as much as we have
to work together, especially on the podcast and the different
projects we have going, that we've worked together and our
working relationship is great, and our friendship is great, and
that is not always the case when friends work together.
(21:40):
So I wanted also to talk about how we started
working together. And basically, I was in a crisis, and
I don't even know if Lee and I on the
friendship end of things, had had a chance to talk
about the fact that I was in a crisis. I
don't even know if we had a chance to talk
about that. Lee had sent out a message to a
few of us on email, right and you were like, Hey,
(22:02):
you know, here's the thing I'm doing, offering, you know,
administrative assistance. Let me know if you all have any
leads for me or if you have you know, any
any work. And I was immediately liked, helloly coma hard return,
hard return, so excited you send me this email because
(22:23):
a girl is sending a crisis and needs some assistance.
So tell me on your side of that story. Where
were you at that point? And how how was that
email when you were sending it. You were sending that
to a few people who were your friends also, right,
so you were opening up the opportunity that you might
have work opportunities to come in from friends, and how
(22:44):
did you process all of that? Yeah, so this was
fall of two thousands. Seventeen was a very difficult year
for me. I don't like to think about it verty
much like that's that's the level of difficulty that we're
talking about. So I was in a state of flux
with work, and I had been looking for full time work.
(23:07):
It hadn't happened. It was living in the Twin Cities
at the time. Um, that move just was not working
out on any at any level. So I had gone
back to becoming a virtual assistant and had like you know,
small clients maybe you know, five hours a month or
(23:27):
whatever here and there, and just trying to cobble things together, um,
just trying to like pay the bills, even at at
a minimum, and things just were not coming together and
I didn't know what else to do. So I was like,
I guess I'm just going to really lean into the
virtual assistant thing and see if I can just build
up more clients and make that work. And so all
(23:52):
of my work up to that point had been word
of mouth. So I was like, I'm just gonna set
out an email to people and let them know that,
like I'm really going to go all in on this
and just see what happens. And so it's just kind
of going through my contact list and I was like,
I could send it to Amina, and I was kind
of like, I don't know, it's just kind of like
I just kind of added you in there. It was
(24:13):
I had I don't think you were on the initial
list of people that I was thinking I was going
to send it to, But as I was going through,
I was like, yeah, just gonna slat her in there,
and and then like I feel like, very quickly you
wrote back, um, and I don't I don't remember if
I'm sure we had talked on boxer, but I don't,
(24:35):
like I can't thinking back, I can't remember if I
knew like what was going on with you at that time. Yeah,
I feel like it had been a while since we'd
been able to like catch up, so yeah, which could
also just be speaking to my mental health at the time,
Like I was I was just I mean, y'all, I
was in a very dark place that year or so. Um.
(24:57):
So I think we found each other at a time
workwise when we need each other, but also just to
be able to connect on that personal level again too,
And and I think it took our friendship even deeper. Um.
I mean, in fact, I know, I know that was
part of it. Of like that we were just going
through hard times and we were able to support each other, um,
(25:20):
even though we were both going through hard times. Yeah, yeah,
oh my goodness. Yes, Like when you said that, I
was like, Damne was a rough year for me to
what was it about that year that just likes like
I just remember emailing you back and being like I
was in such a crisis that I was like, Lee,
even if you can't like keep me as a long
(25:42):
term client just for two weeks, can you check my email? Like,
can you just make sure there's nothing in here? Like
I was in that much of a crisis. Oh my gosh,
like to think back on that, but like you said,
let us not marinate too hard on that because eke
eeke please, But it was like the perfect Um, it
(26:02):
was unfortunate circumstances that had led us both to now
this moment of working together. But then that was very
fortunate that we were able to connect at that moment
because y'all, when I tell y'all, Lee came in there
and just even knowing someone was checking my inbox so
I could just take a break was amazing. And then
I think team came in and I was like, Okay,
(26:25):
things have been in shambles. Now I need to feel
like figure out what is rebuilding gonna look like? And
then I was able to come back to you and go, Okay,
here's what I think things are going to be. This,
this is the thing we can do. And I'm gonna
tell y'all something that I love about Lee Kramer. I
I love this about Lee Kramer until the cows come home,
(26:47):
you know what I'm saying. And I really have never
been in any situation where I understand what it means
when the cows come home, but I assumed by Southern
context that that's forever. So anyways, so the end of time,
when the cows come home, when I tell y'all, um,
Lee Cramer be having a boundary girl. And when I
tell you that, Lee Cramer be communicating the boundaries to you, honey.
(27:09):
So even when we first started working together, we let
me know, like, these are the days and hours I'll
be available. This is how my invoicing process is going
to work. During the days and hours that I have
told you I'm not available, I'm not available, so you
will need to be waiting until the next day that
I tell you that I'm available. Like, she really like
(27:32):
set that up, and I think I'm really thankful for
that because to me, I feel like that is a
big part of why we are able to maintain a
personal relationship and work well together professionally, because you walked
in with like, this is what we're doing. That means
even if you're thinking about a work thing on Saturday,
don't text me about it, And even if you text
(27:52):
me about it, you want to get a response because
I told you those days belong to me. You know.
It was like I walked in sort of understanding your
ex dictations. Do you feel like in times when you're
working with friends that having those conversations up front is
really helpful? Oh? Absolutely so. I part of it is
(28:13):
like that is the conversation that I have with clients,
regardless of how they came to me. Of just being
very upfront of like, these are my work hours. You
can message me outside of that, but I will not
respond to that. I will not look at it like
I don't keep any kind of work email on my phone,
Like I just have very I'm very regimented about that.
(28:34):
And part of that is because a lot of people
in the freelance space don't keep regular hours. But it's
very important for me personally in order to be able
to do the work that I do, to have set
hours and a set availability so that it doesn't bleed
into every other area. And because I think that most
(28:56):
of the time, a lot of what I'm doing is
an urgent, so we can wait until the next business day.
So so it's like my own personal boundaries. But I
also think, or at least I hope that some of
those personal boundaries can also help my clients set better
boundaries around that that work life balance, which can seem
a little mythical, but I don't think that it has
(29:18):
to be mythical. And then I think with the friends
side of it is, I want to be very clear
that like we are friends and we're working together, and
here's how we should can best communicate about the works
side of things, and here's how we can make sure
that we keep the friend side of things going so
it doesn't become lopsided. And just to make sure that
(29:39):
we are communicating well across the board. Um, because I
don't want I don't want working together to sour the
friendship or vice versa. So I would rather just address
it straight up and then and then we can and
then you can kind of fine tune as things go.
(30:00):
But yeah, I just I like to just yeah, I
think it's just like namely elephant in the room, just like,
here's here's what we're working with, and here's what I
think would be best. I love to see it Lee,
because I do feel like sometimes you have conversations with
people and they'll say, you know, if I have a
(30:22):
problem with that, I'll let you know. I'm gonna tell
you something. Lee is really going to let you know.
Some people say they have a problem, they'll let you know,
but really when they have a problem, they're going to
be sort of internally like, I have a problem. No.
If Lee is like, no, that's not gonna work for me,
Lee's actually gonna come back and tell you that's actually
not gonna work for me. That's really helpful. That's really
(30:46):
really helpful. And of course as your friend, as your
friend and in working with you, it's like, as your friend,
I want you to have your time, you know, like
I want you, I want I want all all of
what those boundaries are going to do for you and
how that impacts your life in a healthy way. It's like,
I want that. So I don't want to be the
(31:07):
client or the friend who is overstepping that. I don't
want to do that part. You know. I was going
to ask you what tips would you have for people
who are considering being in a work situation or work
relationship with a friend, because I think sometimes we assume like, oh,
it's my friend, we don't really maybe have to have
(31:29):
those conversations with each other. We've known each other, blah
blah blah, a'mount of years, we've experienced blah blah blah
s uses of life together. So we'll just work together
and it'll be it'll be like, you know, we're just
catching up and then a few work things in between,
and then things get really a mess because we didn't
have those conversations. So I think that's when things go sideways.
As if you assume that it'll all it'll all be
(31:51):
smooth sailing, because even in the closest friendship, like work
changes things. It just so it can be great, but
you have to go in with your eyes wide open.
I would say the first thing to consider is your
personality types, and to really think about the ways that
(32:13):
your personality types get along, and then the points of conflict.
Especially if you've been friends for a while, there probably
has been some kind of conflict or some area where
where you don't see eye to eye, and so to
think about how how will you navigate that conflict and
what it like, what is your own conflict style, what
is there's um and what can you both do to
(32:37):
make sure that that doesn't impede the work that you're
going to do together. Because yeah, I mean, I wouldn't
say that I'm always the first person to handle conflict
head on. I've I've learned, I mean I do. I
definitely have my boundaries, and I've learned to be very
upfront about that. But sometimes in a friendship, I might
(32:58):
be more prone to let things go. But you can't
do that when you're working together, because that's how the
resentments start to pile up and then little things can
become like huge issues and you just don't you don't
want to ruin a friendship over like a work conflict
that really isn't that big of a deal at the
(33:18):
end of the day, you know, it feels like the
largest mountain in the world. Right. I think those are
such good tips lead because I feel like I've had
a few instances where I was working with a friend
and it just got to that point where it was like,
We're about to choose this work or this friendship, and
at the end of the day, I'm going to choose
(33:39):
the friendship, Like the work can be figured out a
different way. I would rather. I would rather walk out
of not working together and still have our friendship then
lose our friendship to working together. But in a lot
of those cases where I mean, of course, sometimes it
just doesn't work well because of maybe the season of
life for you and your friend, and maybe you started
(34:00):
out and things seem like they were going to, you know,
be this certain way, and life comes at you in
this different way. You know, you have some different things
happened to you that sort of change those dynamics. But
I think outside of that, a lot of it is
sometimes two friends that shouldn't be working together is working
together right? You know? And then like it seems like
(34:21):
a good idea, but we didn't really think through the details,
and it's like maybe you should just be that person's friend.
Maybe you're not supposed to be Yeah, well, and I
think it also depends on what are the roles that
people are going to play, Like is one person the
boss and the other person is like freelance employee? Are
you co owners? Like that change like who is going
to be the decision maker? Are you both ideas people?
(34:44):
In which case, how is the actual work going to
be implemented? My mind, So there's a lot of there's
a lot of considerations. Um, and just because you get along,
you know, when you're hanging out, doesn't mean that you're
going to be able to work together well, So there's
I feel like there's a lot to consider. But the
fact that you really like someone and know them well
(35:07):
or at least reasonably well can also be a really
great way to start business relationship. So I don't know
it's worked out for me and me. I mean, I
have enjoyed this so far. I do feel like the
first probably two or three years that you and I
worked together, which I am a proponent of the check in.
(35:30):
I'm sure that I gave Lee a much longer preamble
at the check in then she asked me to give her.
But I am a proponent of if you're working, if
you're working with people in general, but especially if you
have personal relationship to them, of just having a certain
time of the year that you just have that check in,
you know, how is this working for you? Is it
working for me? Kind of thing? And you and I
(35:52):
we do that every year. I'm giving less of a
preamble than I did those first couple of years because
the first couple of years, y'all, we would get to
that it was either like end of year meeting or
sort of top of the new year meeting, and I'd
be like, well, Lee, here we are, and I know
that you may not want to be here working with
(36:12):
me like this always. You may decide one day at
Scotland for you, and I can see that as a
beautiful life for you, and I want you to know
at such time, you know, and Lee would listen to
me go through the whole thing. I mean, this was
taken a while, y'all. I'm like, you know, it's such
time that you may decide you may not even want
to do this anymore. No, I always really like I
was really going in for it, and Lee would listen
(36:35):
and she'd be like, Amina, nothing has changed regarding our
work relationship. Also, as I have stated to you previously,
should that come up, you would know that long before
this meeting, right, But I do. It's really helpful to
have like a big picture meeting like that where we
(36:56):
can just kind of talk about like what's worked well
over the past year, where do we need to you know,
we proved some systems for next year, or what are
the goals for the next year, and like what do
we need to put in place? So it's not even
just like how is our interpersonal working relationship going, but
like what are we going to like put our mind
(37:19):
to next Yeah, which kind of helps us fix some
of the stuff that can make the relationship staticky or
things that you know, Lee and I all the time
are sort of trying to refine processes how we work together,
of what we're doing in UM and Lee and I
working together, you know, it's not like what I do
for a living is cookie cutter, So they'll be like
(37:42):
a lot of moments that Lee's like, oh, I didn't
know we'd be working on something like that, and here
we are doing that, you know, so that could be
kind of fun, but also new things to learn all
the time of different processes that would be needed for
different projects that come across the table. So I do
feel like the communication and is a huge plus for us,
(38:03):
and I agree with you. I think if you are
going to work with a friend, you have to you
have to really. I think to me, working with a
friend is the same as living with one. And I
have a lot of friends that I love, and some
of them you're just like, we love each other and
we could just never live together, like it would just
you know, you have if we don't do this right.
And I feel like you should have those friends considerations.
(38:26):
You know. It's like you have some people you love
that you're like, we can't live together, we don't get
each other's nerves and ruin our friendship, we can't work together.
And then you have some friends that you're like, let's
have a talk. Let's talk about what that would look like.
More conversation, more communication is the best. I think that's right. Yeah, yeah, Lee,
Oh my gosh, I could just talk to you forever.
(38:50):
I have enjoyed this so much, y'all. I hope that
Lee and I have given you some things to think
about consider if you are thinking about working with a friend.
And also I just want to return to the top
of the episode that sometimes it's good to just take
a little step out there, you know, take a little
step out there with a d M. You know, if
(39:10):
you have a chance to meet an online friend in person,
you can take a little step out there and check
the vibes, and if the vibes are good, you could
totally come out of that with a wonderful friend, because
I know I did. Now, Lee can't get rid of me,
So this is always say that you can't get rid
of me. I can't do you and to be my friend.
We love to see it. Lee, thanks for not only
(39:31):
being here in the living room, but I do just
want to give you these flowers. Because Lee and I
have been working together. Some of you are just now
listening to this podcast after this podcast was um sort
of rebranded into a weekly You're hearing this now more
of you because of Syneca Women and I heart but
Lee and I have been working together since the one
point oh of this podcast, when we were just like
(39:54):
building the scaffolding for what this is now. So I
just wanted to say in our living room while the
listeners are here, Lee, just thank you so much that
I appreciate you this podcast, y'all. I'm not even Lana, y'all.
It wouldn't be her with Amina Brown if Lee and
I had not been working together at that time. Lee
really helped like put together all the infrastructure that you
(40:17):
see here. So I thank you for that. Lee. And also,
you know, Lee, if we can close with one of
the affirmations that you have given to me many times
as a friend, y'all. I I go to Lee and
I tell Lee some wild things that have gone on.
I tell her how this person that person crossed this
(40:39):
boundary after I put the boundary up. I tell her
the wild things. Y'all wouldn't even know the wild things
people say to me professionally and personally. And Lee always
has a two word affirmation for me, and I would
love Lee if you can just share this affirmation with
the people so that if they too to remember these
(41:00):
two words, they can hear them from you. What's what's
the affirmation? You know? Tell me do you want, well,
make sure your children aren't listening. Yeah, this is these
are adult words, so they're children in the room. Get
them out of here. But if you listen to this podcast,
I hope you won't to suit with your children, you know, Yes, Lee? Okay,
(41:22):
I always say fuck them, y'all. If I could do embroidery,
that's what I would do. I would just have a
very beautiful embroidery of fuck them, Dash dash, Lee Cramer.
That's what we need. It's a wonderful affirmation. Lee, I
(41:43):
love to see it. Do you remember he told me,
I don't know what a couple of years ago that
if I ever, if I were started a nonprofit, it
should be called suck them dot org because this would
be a very valuable nonprofitly because people like I feel
like as a friend, one of the things that I
(42:04):
just value so much about you is that you were
always about reminding the people in your life that you love,
reminding them like, hey, you're worth more than those people
treating you like that, and you don't have to accept
that treatment from them. You don't have to accept it.
So that's really inherent, you know, in this new nonprofit
(42:26):
that Lee is gonna launch. We'll let you know when
the links are available that you might be able to.
Wouldn't wouldn't you all have so much joy donating to
a nonprofit that was funck them dot org. Wow? Wow,
I think there could be a lot of joy in that. Lee.
Let's we'll discuss. We'll discuss. Thank you so much. Talk
to you all next week. Her with Amina Brown is
(43:01):
produced by Matt Owen for Solografity Productions as a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with I
Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe, rate,
and review the podcast.
Hey, everybody, welcome back to her living room. And let
me tell you, we have a guest in the living room.
But it feels almost weird to call her a guest
because she's part of the reason why this living room
is put together. So I cannot wait to have a
conversation with her. Today. We are talking to author of
(01:01):
a storied life, White Sox fan who loves books and
it's one of my favorite custin friends, Lee Kramer, WHOA
we had to really watch me, like do that? You
have to watch me do that? Just now you know
this is this is like a whole other side of you.
I only only get to hear the recorded versions. Lee.
(01:25):
First of all, thank you so much for being in
the living room as well as helping to put the
living room together. So I was about to say I
couldn't figure out if I was like, y'all, Lee is
our guest in the living room. Also she lives here.
Then I was like, wait, I guess that would make
it sound like we lived together, which you know we could,
but we don't mean in the metaphorical her living room.
(01:45):
I do kind of live there, So I think that's good.
It's a it's it's a home. We're there together, you
and I and Matt. I guess we should explain that
my official title is the administrative and podcast production Assistant. Yes,
because I was about to say that Lee is not
only my good friend, but we also work together, and
(02:06):
we work together in in general ways that Lee fixes
my work life as my assistant and as the production
assistant for this podcast. Lee, Oh my goodness, pretty much
anything that's organized about this y'all is because of Lee.
I just want you all to know that. I just
want you to know that that's true. So Lee, I'm
really excited for us to be on the podcast because
(02:30):
you and I obviously talked through almost every episode. What
am I saying? Every episode of this podcast, you and
I talk about it, whether it's in the before process
or in the after process. And we've been doing quite
a few friend episodes in the last year or so,
and particularly the Internet friends episodes that we've done the
last few months, and Lee and I were laughing because
(02:51):
we too started out as internet friends, and I would
love to just go into that story a little bit, Lee,
of how you and I met. What's our what is
our internet friends story? Well, it's I feel like it's
a little nebulous because we were writing for the same
(03:14):
website and so we connected there. There was some kind
of is it a Facebook group for all of the writers.
I feel like that's how I first came across you,
and then I guess through the group, or maybe just
from reading each other's stuff on that site and then
maybe following each other on Twitter. Yep, I think how
(03:38):
we started getting to know each other better. But I don't.
I don't have like I don't remember like our first
interaction or like, at what point I was like not
my fellow writer Amina, but my internet friend Amina. Just
I don't know, like do you have any early memories.
(04:00):
It's like feel it's like I don't know sometimes what
the internet friends. It's like you don't really know I
at what point you're like this person is cool, to like,
oh I want to be friends with them. It's just
kind of evolves that way. Very magical. It is magical
because I do I do remember that Facebook group, and
I do remember at one point somebody started a social
(04:23):
media thread where it was like, hey, we should all
follow each other, and I do remember following you then
and then being like okay, and like looking at the
tweets and somehow, either through conversations in that group or
through your Twitter. I knew that you were in Nashville then,
(04:44):
and I was coming there quite a bit. But when
we met in person at an event, I I don't know,
it was like when I saw your face and maybe
did you DM me? Why did I not go back
through our d M history to see if they were
still there? Well? That was this was like several years ago,
so it would be a lot of it just to
(05:05):
go through, UM. I may I'm yeah, I may have
DMDU to say that I was going to be there.
That is something that I would do. Like if I
if I knew that someone was going to be in
town UM and I felt like reasonably friendly enough with them,
I would probably say, like you should meet up, or
(05:27):
let's make sure we say hi, or do you have
time to go get coffee or whatever? So that is possible. Yeah,
I feel like I feel like that might have been
at least I feel like there was at least a
message from you that said, Hey, I know you're going
to be in town and I live here. I feel
like there's at least that. But I feel like I
felt so pleasantly surprised when I actually saw you there
(05:50):
at the event. I think we actually walked out of
the event. It was you and I and another friend.
I think we actually walked out of the event like
in the hallway, all the all the giggles and just
oh my gosh, like a like, like, we're real people.
We could see how tall each other was or in
(06:12):
my case not, but I am short. I mean it's
tall theory. That's true. That's true. Um, yeah, it was.
I think it was. It was just fun to actually
put a like a name or an avatar and a face,
like a real face together and to see that we
(06:34):
are real people, and also just enough conversation where you're like, yeah,
I could I really do like this person and they
are who like they are in real life, who they
present themselves to be online. Oh that's a good point
right there, Lee, That's a good point right there, because
I think in making online connections, you sort of get
(06:55):
this comfort online around some of the people that you
enjoy their tweets or maybe you talk to them online
and stuff, and the feeling when you meet them of like, oh,
that same feeling that I have about you online. I
also have that feeling when I see you in person.
Oh you articulated that in such a great way, because
I'm like, that's totally how I felt like, oh, yes,
(07:16):
look at you. Yes, yes, that same I feel like
and I think we I think we only had like
it was a very small amount of time because I
can't remember if I had to go back on stage
to do something. I can't remember that part, but I
remember it was a very quick like my phone, your phone,
you know, kind of Yeah. I feel like we took
we took a selfie and I think I think you
(07:39):
introduced me to your mom here called hem right, I
think my mom and my sister. I think it was
my sister. Like, I feel like you had a few
people that were that were with you, um, and then yeah,
it must have just been like a really quick break
in between stuff, and I think we were all kind
of like, can we just like skip the rest of
(07:59):
the see and just okay, just hang out? Okay. I
really wished I really probably if I This is the
thing about as you know, you get older and more
into your like, um, I don't really care what people
be thinking phase of your life. You know, now that
we're in our forties, I feel like me and my
forties would have been like, I'm done here anyways, do
(08:20):
you want to go get something to eat? Or I
feel like I would have done that now, but then
I sort of felt like, Oh, the session starting, But
now I would have been like, oh, are you hungry,
I'm gonna I'm gonna walk back in there and get
my bag, and then everyone's going to know that I'm leaving,
and I don't. I don't want to be here for
the rest of this. I mean I totally would have
left because I had a free ticket, so I mean
I was literally only there to like see a couple
(08:41):
of friends, and it was not really it was not
really my scene. Please please and thank you. Okay, let
me ask you about this, and you you spoke to
this a little bit. I wanted to ask you, what
is it you're looking for when you meet an online
friend in person? Is it that's that feeling of comfort?
(09:03):
I mean, I know, I feel like when we're if
we were talking about like a dating situation, you'd say
you're looking for this chemistry and maybe it is still chemistry,
but just friendship. Like what is that like for you?
What are you looking to see when you meet someone
in real life that you know online. I yeah, chemistry
is probably still a good way to put it, because
I mean, I guess when you think of friends, maybe
(09:24):
you don't think of chemistry so much, but like do
you vibe with each other? Like are you on the
same wavelength? And um is does the conversation flow as
easily in person as it does when you're just like
texting with them? I think with all of my internet friends,
whether it's online or in real life, I am looking
(09:47):
for that connection, like what are the things that we
have in common? Are we learning from each other? Are
we laughing or supporting each other? And so when I
meet them in real life, I just want to make
sure that at ease is still there. Well, I love
that word, the ease. We love a friendship with ease.
(10:10):
It doesn't always happen like there are There are a
couple of times that I have met someone and the
conversation is more stilted, and I don't I don't always
know what that is. I think in most of those
cases they approached me to hang out instead of the
other way around. Not not always, that's probably not not here.
(10:30):
But I would say like they were people that I
wouldn't have necessarily thought to get together with um, because
there's certainly been internet friends that have asked me to
hang out that I would have totally asked them first
if we had been at the same place. So but yeah,
I think that where they where I felt less connected
to the online friendship, then I think it makes sense
(10:53):
that I would feel less connected once we met face
to face, or they just had a different expectation of
who I was as or wanted. Because I used to
be a social worker, I think sometimes people I think
that they want some free therapy, and I offer that
I do not offer those services, thank you, So that
(11:13):
can be a little awkward to kind of redirect that conversation.
And I feel like, I don't know where you thought
that I was gonna do that for you, But no, okay,
like no, no, thank you, No, we don't want to
provide those services, especially since it's draining to do when
you when when when that's happening to you, when someone
(11:34):
has that expectation of you in a personal type of setting,
that's no, no thank you, right right, And it's not
I mean I feel like they probably think that, like
we're friends, so I'm just gonna share, like what I've
been going through, and I'm like, well we are We're
not really that kind of friend, Okay, okay, Like if
we were real friends, sure, I don't totally want to
(11:57):
know like what someone is going through or what they've
been through. But but I'm also not not going to
give them free therapy either. Like that's very different to
support a friend versus looking for that level of um expertise.
If you want that expertise, I don't not license for
that anymore. But you're gonna have to do more than
(12:18):
pay for my lunch. So okay, okay, please, I'm gonna
tell you what I what I felt like solidified for me,
like Lea's my friend now. Lee reached out to me
and was like, Hey, my birthday is coming up. I
was thinking about making a trip to Atlanta. Can I
(12:39):
stay with y'all? And I like, I think back on
this all the timely because it was like you were
asking me that there was there were a few things
that made me be like yes to all of the
things that Lee's saying in this message. First of all,
it was sort of like you caught me in this
window of time where I want to say, by the
(13:02):
time your birthday had come up. I don't think we'd
been in our house even a year. I think you
were one of the first like house guests that we
ever had, and we'd never had a guest room either
to have house guests. So the thought of being like,
we're in this new home. Sure, and then you said
(13:22):
something about maybe you'll remember this, but there was something
you said about why you wanted to get out of Nashville.
You want you or maybe you did say why you
wanted to get out Nashville. You wanted to go someplace
else for your birthday, and I think you were turning
thirty five. Am I remembering that right? And I have
a lot of like I have a lot of strong
(13:43):
feelings around what can be monumental birthdays in general, Like
I have strong feelings around people celebrating that, and then
I just have strong feelings around birthdays. I just feel like,
you know, you writing and being like like, I don't
know if you had written and just said, you know,
shit is crazy in Nashville and I just want to
weekend in Atlanta, like what I have been equally like, yeah,
(14:06):
come on, maybe I would have, but something about you
saying it was your birthday that you wanted to just
be in like a different environment. All the layers of
that had me like, yes, Lee, come to Atlanta. We
can think of fun things that you can do because
it's your birthday, you know. And so I just said
you asked, and I just said yeah, and you just
(14:26):
came on. Do you remember Do you remember what was
in your mind when you were when you were reaching
out to me to ask that. Yeah, I mean not really.
I I definitely wanted to not be in Nashville for
my birthday. I just wanted a change of pace and
and I think like the year before that birthday had
(14:48):
been kind of disappointing, and so I think I just
was like, I just got to get out of town
for this one for thirty five. And then I was thinking, well,
like where, like what's within driving distance that way be
fun or like who do I know? And then I
was kind of like, well I could, I could go
back to Atlanta and then maybe I can see what
the mean like I don't know, it just it is
(15:12):
kind of wild when I think back, because we've really
just seen each other that brief amount of time at
that conference, and so that's a pretty big jump to
go to can I stay at your house. I also
think I probably gave you a lot of caveats and
being like it's okay if it doesn't work out, or
like you know, yeah, But I'm also someone that it
(15:35):
will just kind of be like, well, I'm just gonna
ask and see, like see what they say. I will
often go visit an internet friend that I've never spent
any time with in person and just kind of be like,
let's see what happens, which hasn't burned me yet, so okay,
(16:13):
I was like sure. And when you came and stayed
with us that weekend, first of all, I mean I
have had a lot of joy getting to know you
because you are a person that has like how can
I describe it, Lee, It's like you have a lot
of um, wonderful layers to you, and even all the
(16:34):
years I've been friends with you, there is always something
that we end up talking about that I'm like, hmm,
I didn't know Lee liked that, or I'm like I
didn't know she'd be into that, or whatever it is.
You know, you have these like you have these wonderful
elements of like surprise. You know that I'm like, oh, so,
like when you came that weekend and we were like,
(16:56):
what do you like to eat? We're trying to think
of some places we can go together, and what do
you like to drink? Matt? Matt was the one because
between the three of us, Matt and Lee handle their
alcohol much better than I do. So Matt was like,
what do you like to drink? What about this? What
about this? He was like naming different things, and Lee
was like, it's gin for me. I was just like,
(17:17):
I am here for everything about this, Like I just
would I mean, I don't know what my mind would
have expected you were gonna say, Lee, but there was
just something so I don't know, it's felt something so
like classy but cussing lady that you were like, it's
gin for me. Who cares about why no one needs champagne?
(17:38):
It's gin for me. I feel like this is the
best description of myself that I've ever I've ever heard.
It was so fantastic. I was like, oh, yes, it's
jin it's gin for her. Go on, Lee, what else?
And we just I mean, we had a lot of
fun that weekend just thinking of places that we enjoyed.
(17:59):
And after you told us, like some types of food
you like or things that you might do, things that
you thought you might like to do, and getting to
like go and do those things, and then because we're
both introverts, also being like, is this the time that
you would rather just sit down and not have anything
to do? Yeah? I remember, it just had It was
a quick visit, but it had a really good flow
(18:21):
to it, and it wasn't like we totally could have
torn it up and done a lot more. But that's
not what I was not what I was looking for.
Just wanted to be in a different place and just
to be able to get to know you and Matt well,
I mean you better, but Matt at all I didn't
write before and now here we are all these years later.
(18:43):
Oh my gosh, because I was thinking about the other
times that you've come to visit us, and of course
since we started working together, some of those were sort
of like we'd have a little bit of work and
then we'd be like, okay, we're done with that. Now
a library, a bookstore, a down'tut or whatever it was,
you know, we could get into. And so I kind
of feel like every time you come to visit it
(19:04):
still has a little bit of the rhythm of what
our first visit together was it's definitely like, what's this
food that we're trying to eat? Also, what's the time
we're gonna have that we're gonna do nothing in case
activities have overstimulated me. Yeah, or just like sitting on
your couch and talking. It's like we don't have to
go out to have a good time. But yeah, I
(19:28):
don't know. Oh man, now I'm really sad that we
haven't been able to see each other. It's normally at
least once a year, I think. So far, we've almost
every year up until the pandemic, of course had that time,
and so we've There have been several moments, y'all personal
moments between Lee and I and professionally where I've been
like Lee, like a professional thing we had, you know,
(19:49):
we had some winds happened professionally that I wanted to
be like, Ah, we're supposed to be able to eat
food together right now, and I hate it that we
get you know. And then sometimes personally I'd be like, oh,
I just want to make you color greens leave and
though I don't even know if you eat color greens,
but I want to make them and sit there with you.
(20:11):
It will always correct me up. That is like that
is your go to um like color greens. It's my
big fix it. It's my like, it's my like, well,
something's going on. I guess I need to make ten
pans of color greens. I don't know. I'm just like
that just feels like a thing that I guess because
it's a dish you make that you kind of have
to stew and you know it cooks for a while
(20:34):
and love and comfort. Yeah, I think maybe that's why
it's in my mind. But y'all, y'all will not believe
the amount of times and I'm like, Lee, I just
wish I could make you some collar greens and we'll
be like, I don't know if that's what I want,
but I hear the sentiment behind what you're saying and
I do receive that. Okay, So Lee, after us being
(20:54):
online friends, then we became friends in real life, then
we started working together. And this is a thing that
we really wanted to center this episode on because I
know some of you may also be in situations where
you work with friends or I've also had people say, oh,
my friend and I are thinking about starting this business together,
or we're in consideration of working together. And I have
(21:16):
to say, I am so proud of both of us
that we have managed to work together, you know, as
as much as we work, as much as we have
to work together, especially on the podcast and the different
projects we have going, that we've worked together and our
working relationship is great, and our friendship is great, and
that is not always the case when friends work together.
(21:40):
So I wanted also to talk about how we started
working together. And basically, I was in a crisis, and
I don't even know if Lee and I on the
friendship end of things, had had a chance to talk
about the fact that I was in a crisis. I
don't even know if we had a chance to talk
about that. Lee had sent out a message to a
few of us on email, right and you were like, Hey,
(22:02):
you know, here's the thing I'm doing, offering, you know,
administrative assistance. Let me know if you all have any
leads for me or if you have you know, any
any work. And I was immediately liked, helloly coma hard return,
hard return, so excited you send me this email because
(22:23):
a girl is sending a crisis and needs some assistance.
So tell me on your side of that story. Where
were you at that point? And how how was that
email when you were sending it. You were sending that
to a few people who were your friends also, right,
so you were opening up the opportunity that you might
have work opportunities to come in from friends, and how
(22:44):
did you process all of that? Yeah, so this was
fall of two thousands. Seventeen was a very difficult year
for me. I don't like to think about it verty
much like that's that's the level of difficulty that we're
talking about. So I was in a state of flux
with work, and I had been looking for full time work.
(23:07):
It hadn't happened. It was living in the Twin Cities
at the time. Um, that move just was not working
out on any at any level. So I had gone
back to becoming a virtual assistant and had like you know,
small clients maybe you know, five hours a month or
(23:27):
whatever here and there, and just trying to cobble things together, um,
just trying to like pay the bills, even at at
a minimum, and things just were not coming together and
I didn't know what else to do. So I was like,
I guess I'm just going to really lean into the
virtual assistant thing and see if I can just build
up more clients and make that work. And so all
(23:52):
of my work up to that point had been word
of mouth. So I was like, I'm just gonna set
out an email to people and let them know that,
like I'm really going to go all in on this
and just see what happens. And so it's just kind
of going through my contact list and I was like,
I could send it to Amina, and I was kind
of like, I don't know, it's just kind of like
I just kind of added you in there. It was
(24:13):
I had I don't think you were on the initial
list of people that I was thinking I was going
to send it to, But as I was going through,
I was like, yeah, just gonna slat her in there,
and and then like I feel like, very quickly you
wrote back, um, and I don't I don't remember if
I'm sure we had talked on boxer, but I don't,
(24:35):
like I can't thinking back, I can't remember if I
knew like what was going on with you at that time. Yeah,
I feel like it had been a while since we'd
been able to like catch up, so yeah, which could
also just be speaking to my mental health at the time,
Like I was I was just I mean, y'all, I
was in a very dark place that year or so. Um.
(24:57):
So I think we found each other at a time
workwise when we need each other, but also just to
be able to connect on that personal level again too,
And and I think it took our friendship even deeper. Um.
I mean, in fact, I know, I know that was
part of it. Of like that we were just going
through hard times and we were able to support each other, um,
(25:20):
even though we were both going through hard times. Yeah, yeah,
oh my goodness. Yes, Like when you said that, I
was like, Damne was a rough year for me to
what was it about that year that just likes like
I just remember emailing you back and being like I
was in such a crisis that I was like, Lee,
even if you can't like keep me as a long
(25:42):
term client just for two weeks, can you check my email? Like,
can you just make sure there's nothing in here? Like
I was in that much of a crisis. Oh my gosh,
like to think back on that, but like you said,
let us not marinate too hard on that because eke
eeke please, But it was like the perfect Um, it
(26:02):
was unfortunate circumstances that had led us both to now
this moment of working together. But then that was very
fortunate that we were able to connect at that moment
because y'all, when I tell y'all, Lee came in there
and just even knowing someone was checking my inbox so
I could just take a break was amazing. And then
I think team came in and I was like, Okay,
(26:25):
things have been in shambles. Now I need to feel
like figure out what is rebuilding gonna look like? And
then I was able to come back to you and go, Okay,
here's what I think things are going to be. This,
this is the thing we can do. And I'm gonna
tell y'all something that I love about Lee Kramer. I
I love this about Lee Kramer until the cows come home,
(26:47):
you know what I'm saying. And I really have never
been in any situation where I understand what it means
when the cows come home, but I assumed by Southern
context that that's forever. So anyways, so the end of time,
when the cows come home, when I tell y'all, um,
Lee Cramer be having a boundary girl. And when I
tell you that, Lee Cramer be communicating the boundaries to you, honey.
(27:09):
So even when we first started working together, we let
me know, like, these are the days and hours I'll
be available. This is how my invoicing process is going
to work. During the days and hours that I have
told you I'm not available, I'm not available, so you
will need to be waiting until the next day that
I tell you that I'm available. Like, she really like
(27:32):
set that up, and I think I'm really thankful for
that because to me, I feel like that is a
big part of why we are able to maintain a
personal relationship and work well together professionally, because you walked
in with like, this is what we're doing. That means
even if you're thinking about a work thing on Saturday,
don't text me about it, And even if you text
(27:52):
me about it, you want to get a response because
I told you those days belong to me. You know.
It was like I walked in sort of understanding your
ex dictations. Do you feel like in times when you're
working with friends that having those conversations up front is
really helpful? Oh? Absolutely so. I part of it is
(28:13):
like that is the conversation that I have with clients,
regardless of how they came to me. Of just being
very upfront of like, these are my work hours. You
can message me outside of that, but I will not
respond to that. I will not look at it like
I don't keep any kind of work email on my phone,
Like I just have very I'm very regimented about that.
(28:34):
And part of that is because a lot of people
in the freelance space don't keep regular hours. But it's
very important for me personally in order to be able
to do the work that I do, to have set
hours and a set availability so that it doesn't bleed
into every other area. And because I think that most
(28:56):
of the time, a lot of what I'm doing is
an urgent, so we can wait until the next business day.
So so it's like my own personal boundaries. But I
also think, or at least I hope that some of
those personal boundaries can also help my clients set better
boundaries around that that work life balance, which can seem
a little mythical, but I don't think that it has
(29:18):
to be mythical. And then I think with the friends
side of it is, I want to be very clear
that like we are friends and we're working together, and
here's how we should can best communicate about the works
side of things, and here's how we can make sure
that we keep the friend side of things going so
it doesn't become lopsided. And just to make sure that
(29:39):
we are communicating well across the board. Um, because I
don't want I don't want working together to sour the
friendship or vice versa. So I would rather just address
it straight up and then and then we can and
then you can kind of fine tune as things go.
(30:00):
But yeah, I just I like to just yeah, I
think it's just like namely elephant in the room, just like,
here's here's what we're working with, and here's what I
think would be best. I love to see it Lee,
because I do feel like sometimes you have conversations with
people and they'll say, you know, if I have a
(30:22):
problem with that, I'll let you know. I'm gonna tell
you something. Lee is really going to let you know.
Some people say they have a problem, they'll let you know,
but really when they have a problem, they're going to
be sort of internally like, I have a problem. No.
If Lee is like, no, that's not gonna work for me,
Lee's actually gonna come back and tell you that's actually
not gonna work for me. That's really helpful. That's really
(30:46):
really helpful. And of course as your friend, as your
friend and in working with you, it's like, as your friend,
I want you to have your time, you know, like
I want you, I want I want all all of
what those boundaries are going to do for you and
how that impacts your life in a healthy way. It's like,
I want that. So I don't want to be the
(31:07):
client or the friend who is overstepping that. I don't
want to do that part. You know. I was going
to ask you what tips would you have for people
who are considering being in a work situation or work
relationship with a friend, because I think sometimes we assume like, oh,
it's my friend, we don't really maybe have to have
(31:29):
those conversations with each other. We've known each other, blah
blah blah, a'mount of years, we've experienced blah blah blah
s uses of life together. So we'll just work together
and it'll be it'll be like, you know, we're just
catching up and then a few work things in between,
and then things get really a mess because we didn't
have those conversations. So I think that's when things go sideways.
As if you assume that it'll all it'll all be
(31:51):
smooth sailing, because even in the closest friendship, like work
changes things. It just so it can be great, but
you have to go in with your eyes wide open.
I would say the first thing to consider is your
personality types, and to really think about the ways that
(32:13):
your personality types get along, and then the points of conflict.
Especially if you've been friends for a while, there probably
has been some kind of conflict or some area where
where you don't see eye to eye, and so to
think about how how will you navigate that conflict and
what it like, what is your own conflict style, what
is there's um and what can you both do to
(32:37):
make sure that that doesn't impede the work that you're
going to do together. Because yeah, I mean, I wouldn't
say that I'm always the first person to handle conflict
head on. I've I've learned, I mean I do. I
definitely have my boundaries, and I've learned to be very
upfront about that. But sometimes in a friendship, I might
(32:58):
be more prone to let things go. But you can't
do that when you're working together, because that's how the
resentments start to pile up and then little things can
become like huge issues and you just don't you don't
want to ruin a friendship over like a work conflict
that really isn't that big of a deal at the
(33:18):
end of the day, you know, it feels like the
largest mountain in the world. Right. I think those are
such good tips lead because I feel like I've had
a few instances where I was working with a friend
and it just got to that point where it was like,
We're about to choose this work or this friendship, and
at the end of the day, I'm going to choose
(33:39):
the friendship, Like the work can be figured out a
different way. I would rather. I would rather walk out
of not working together and still have our friendship then
lose our friendship to working together. But in a lot
of those cases where I mean, of course, sometimes it
just doesn't work well because of maybe the season of
life for you and your friend, and maybe you started
(34:00):
out and things seem like they were going to, you know,
be this certain way, and life comes at you in
this different way. You know, you have some different things
happened to you that sort of change those dynamics. But
I think outside of that, a lot of it is
sometimes two friends that shouldn't be working together is working
together right? You know? And then like it seems like
(34:21):
a good idea, but we didn't really think through the details,
and it's like maybe you should just be that person's friend.
Maybe you're not supposed to be Yeah, well, and I
think it also depends on what are the roles that
people are going to play, Like is one person the
boss and the other person is like freelance employee? Are
you co owners? Like that change like who is going
to be the decision maker? Are you both ideas people?
(34:44):
In which case, how is the actual work going to
be implemented? My mind, So there's a lot of there's
a lot of considerations. Um, and just because you get along,
you know, when you're hanging out, doesn't mean that you're
going to be able to work together well, So there's
I feel like there's a lot to consider. But the
fact that you really like someone and know them well
(35:07):
or at least reasonably well can also be a really
great way to start business relationship. So I don't know
it's worked out for me and me. I mean, I
have enjoyed this so far. I do feel like the
first probably two or three years that you and I
worked together, which I am a proponent of the check in.
(35:30):
I'm sure that I gave Lee a much longer preamble
at the check in then she asked me to give her.
But I am a proponent of if you're working, if
you're working with people in general, but especially if you
have personal relationship to them, of just having a certain
time of the year that you just have that check in,
you know, how is this working for you? Is it
working for me? Kind of thing? And you and I
(35:52):
we do that every year. I'm giving less of a
preamble than I did those first couple of years because
the first couple of years, y'all, we would get to
that it was either like end of year meeting or
sort of top of the new year meeting, and I'd
be like, well, Lee, here we are, and I know
that you may not want to be here working with
(36:12):
me like this always. You may decide one day at
Scotland for you, and I can see that as a
beautiful life for you, and I want you to know
at such time, you know, and Lee would listen to
me go through the whole thing. I mean, this was
taken a while, y'all. I'm like, you know, it's such
time that you may decide you may not even want
to do this anymore. No, I always really like I
was really going in for it, and Lee would listen
(36:35):
and she'd be like, Amina, nothing has changed regarding our
work relationship. Also, as I have stated to you previously,
should that come up, you would know that long before
this meeting, right, But I do. It's really helpful to
have like a big picture meeting like that where we
(36:56):
can just kind of talk about like what's worked well
over the past year, where do we need to you know,
we proved some systems for next year, or what are
the goals for the next year, and like what do
we need to put in place? So it's not even
just like how is our interpersonal working relationship going, but
like what are we going to like put our mind
(37:19):
to next Yeah, which kind of helps us fix some
of the stuff that can make the relationship staticky or
things that you know, Lee and I all the time
are sort of trying to refine processes how we work together,
of what we're doing in UM and Lee and I
working together, you know, it's not like what I do
for a living is cookie cutter, So they'll be like
(37:42):
a lot of moments that Lee's like, oh, I didn't
know we'd be working on something like that, and here
we are doing that, you know, so that could be
kind of fun, but also new things to learn all
the time of different processes that would be needed for
different projects that come across the table. So I do
feel like the communication and is a huge plus for us,
(38:03):
and I agree with you. I think if you are
going to work with a friend, you have to you
have to really. I think to me, working with a
friend is the same as living with one. And I
have a lot of friends that I love, and some
of them you're just like, we love each other and
we could just never live together, like it would just
you know, you have if we don't do this right.
And I feel like you should have those friends considerations.
(38:26):
You know. It's like you have some people you love
that you're like, we can't live together, we don't get
each other's nerves and ruin our friendship, we can't work together.
And then you have some friends that you're like, let's
have a talk. Let's talk about what that would look like.
More conversation, more communication is the best. I think that's right. Yeah, yeah, Lee,
Oh my gosh, I could just talk to you forever.
(38:50):
I have enjoyed this so much, y'all. I hope that
Lee and I have given you some things to think
about consider if you are thinking about working with a friend.
And also I just want to return to the top
of the episode that sometimes it's good to just take
a little step out there, you know, take a little
step out there with a d M. You know, if
(39:10):
you have a chance to meet an online friend in person,
you can take a little step out there and check
the vibes, and if the vibes are good, you could
totally come out of that with a wonderful friend, because
I know I did. Now, Lee can't get rid of me,
So this is always say that you can't get rid
of me. I can't do you and to be my friend.
We love to see it. Lee, thanks for not only
(39:31):
being here in the living room, but I do just
want to give you these flowers. Because Lee and I
have been working together. Some of you are just now
listening to this podcast after this podcast was um sort
of rebranded into a weekly You're hearing this now more
of you because of Syneca Women and I heart but
Lee and I have been working together since the one
point oh of this podcast, when we were just like
(39:54):
building the scaffolding for what this is now. So I
just wanted to say in our living room while the
listeners are here, Lee, just thank you so much that
I appreciate you this podcast, y'all. I'm not even Lana, y'all.
It wouldn't be her with Amina Brown if Lee and
I had not been working together at that time. Lee
really helped like put together all the infrastructure that you
(40:17):
see here. So I thank you for that. Lee. And also,
you know, Lee, if we can close with one of
the affirmations that you have given to me many times
as a friend, y'all. I I go to Lee and
I tell Lee some wild things that have gone on.
I tell her how this person that person crossed this
(40:39):
boundary after I put the boundary up. I tell her
the wild things. Y'all wouldn't even know the wild things
people say to me professionally and personally. And Lee always
has a two word affirmation for me, and I would
love Lee if you can just share this affirmation with
the people so that if they too to remember these
(41:00):
two words, they can hear them from you. What's what's
the affirmation? You know? Tell me do you want, well,
make sure your children aren't listening. Yeah, this is these
are adult words, so they're children in the room. Get
them out of here. But if you listen to this podcast,
I hope you won't to suit with your children, you know, Yes, Lee? Okay,
(41:22):
I always say fuck them, y'all. If I could do embroidery,
that's what I would do. I would just have a
very beautiful embroidery of fuck them, Dash dash, Lee Cramer.
That's what we need. It's a wonderful affirmation. Lee, I
(41:43):
love to see it. Do you remember he told me,
I don't know what a couple of years ago that
if I ever, if I were started a nonprofit, it
should be called suck them dot org because this would
be a very valuable nonprofitly because people like I feel
like as a friend, one of the things that I
(42:04):
just value so much about you is that you were
always about reminding the people in your life that you love,
reminding them like, hey, you're worth more than those people
treating you like that, and you don't have to accept
that treatment from them. You don't have to accept it.
So that's really inherent, you know, in this new nonprofit
(42:26):
that Lee is gonna launch. We'll let you know when
the links are available that you might be able to.
Wouldn't wouldn't you all have so much joy donating to
a nonprofit that was funck them dot org. Wow? Wow,
I think there could be a lot of joy in that. Lee.
Let's we'll discuss. We'll discuss. Thank you so much. Talk
to you all next week. Her with Amina Brown is
(43:01):
produced by Matt Owen for Solografity Productions as a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with I
Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe, rate,
and review the podcast.
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