May 10, 2022 • 45 mins
This week New York Times’ Bestselling author of This Here Flesh, Cole Arthur Riley, is in our HER living room sharing a few of her favorite things! Tune in as Cole and I talk about Philly food, the spirituality of Toni Morrison’s work, favorite cuss words and what spiritual practice looks like for Cole today. To learn more about Cole’s work, visit http://colearthurriley.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of Her
with Amina Brown. And I've just had a lot of
like strange schedule things going on, y'all, so I haven't
been able to bring guests back into the living room.
But it is that time. It is that time today,
and I'm very excited about the guests who will be
here with us in our living room. Creator and writer
(00:52):
of Black Liturgies, a project that integrates spiritual practice with
black emotion, black literature, and the Black Body, New York
Times best selling author of This Here, Flesh, Spirituality, Liberation,
and the Stories that make Us Welcome to her living room,
Cole Arthur Riley, thanks for having me. I know the
(01:15):
people are clapping too, Cole. I mean some of them
are driving so they can't. But the other people that
aren't driving, they just clapped too. I know they didn't. Well, Cole,
thank you so much for joining me, y'all. I am
so excited. Cole and I are just like meeting, meeting,
like getting a chance to talk in real time for
the first time. But I was very honored to be
(01:35):
one of the folks who had the opportunity to get
an early read on this here flesh and had the
honor of being one of the folks to get to
write some words of an endorsement about this book. So
New York Times the best selling author Cole, how does
it feel? It still feels like a dream. Honestly, it's
it's it's when you know people like you say it
(01:56):
that I'm like, oh, that that happened, that was that
was But yeah, it feels good and scary, and but yeah,
I'm happy. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm so excited for
you and excited for the readers as well. I mean,
I know many of us, many of you listening, have
probably already been enjoying Cole's writing in your essays and articles,
(02:21):
and for those of us who are followers of black liturgies,
we've been enjoying, uh, some pieces of the things that
you write. But to get a chance to sort of
see in this book, there is this sort of fullness
that when you have encountered a writer in other short
forms of writing and then you get a chance to
read their book, you know you're sort of getting more
(02:41):
of the story of them, the story of their process,
in more of a fullness. Even though I know about
book writing, there are many things we have to leave
out of that, out of that process, but how exciting.
So I have to start with something that's very important,
which is snacks. And I'm starting with snacks cole as
the question that I want to ask you about because
(03:03):
this this is leading into Philly food and I do
need to be honest about that, but I just want
to start in general with snacks because what I think
about this podcast. I always think about what I do
with my girlfriends, and we typically get together in one
another's living rooms and we're always sort of piecing together
some type of snacks. If we're having a night that
(03:23):
we're like, I don't want to go out, I don't
want to see other people. I don't wanna I don't
want to do that restaurant like, I just want to
come to your house and tell you us up. I
want to cuss, I want to watch TV, whatever it is,
and we typically sort of bring our little piece meal
snack situations together. So when you get together with your girlfriends,
what is your favorite snack to bring? Okay, in the
(03:45):
past two years, this is what I'm bringing. Flaming hot dorritos,
not the cheetos. The doritos and if you can find
the like super flaming hot doritos that just hurt on
the way down. That's what I'm bringing, so good twizzlers usually,
and then I know this isn't really like. People don't
(04:06):
consider this like snack food so much. But crazins to me,
crazins tastes like candy and I will stick beside them.
I love crazins. It's like a sweet kind of like tart,
you know. Addition, I thank you for bringing crazins into
the chat because they are not spoken of enough in
(04:27):
my opinion. I I have done my own sort of
impromptu trail mix situation in a crazings bag, just through
some peanuts up in there, through an almond or two,
a sunflower seats shook that up, and I'm there already.
I don't even have to try to find a trail
mix that has the mix of things I like. Crazins
are where it's at, people boy on a salad sprinkle
(04:50):
some crazy people. Yeah, it does the work, makes everything
go down easier. Crazy that like sweet tart situation. I
want to thank you for bringing that to the table. Well,
this is my segue. We know from reading this year,
Flesh that you have sort of a rootedness there in
Pennsylvania and mainly in Pittsburgh, Right, but you do have
(05:10):
some roots in Philly as well, right, Yeah, Yeah, I
lived in Philly for a number of years. I need
to talk to you about Philly food for a moment here,
because I went to Philly and I am a person
who enjoys a city for its food. I am into that,
and I went to Philly and I really was there.
I mean, maybe this is touristy of me, but I
(05:32):
really am there just trying to get this authentic cheese
steak and I did that. It was great. But I
really need to tell you what really changed my life
about Philly is the HOGI like I I have a
lot of emotional feelings about the hogies that I have
enjoyed there. And there's some kind of a First of all,
(05:52):
I think the bread is not available where I live
in Atlanta. I don't think people say they're making hogies
down here. I'm not sure they are because I don't
think the bread's right. And then there's some sort of
an herb oil. There's something going on with some oil
and some vinegar that when I try to buy those
ingredients at the store and make a sandwich at my house.
It's not doing what the Hogi is doing in Philly.
(06:17):
So I would like to hear your thoughts about hogs
and then I would like to hear if you could
recommend like the food people should eat in Philly. What
would you say? Please discuss? Okay, I love a HOGI.
I think Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania we love a HOGI. Like you,
you order pizza, but you can't order pizza without ordering
(06:40):
a Hogi where I'm from and in Philly, I think
it's all in the bread. We're not at like New
York City level with our breads, but we're trying. I
can't remember the place we used to go. I want
to say Geno's, but that doesn't sound right. Maybe I'll
send it to you after and you can include a
Hogi shop in the show notes. I'm a big fan
(07:02):
of dim Sum. Speak a word about dim Sum today.
Love dim Sum. I love the community. I mean COVID
times have kind of change things a little bit, but
it's this communal feeling. You know, you can have a
little bit of everything for people who have buyers remorse,
you know, are afraid it's low risk, you know, because
(07:22):
there's always something else that's being rotated. So love dim Sum.
There's a place called dim Sum Garden on Race Street
in Philly. Best soup dumplings I've ever had anywhere, including
New York City. Don't come for me, don't come to seek,
but best. I went to New York City, I was like, Oh,
I can't wait for these soup dumplings. They were good,
(07:44):
but I was fantasizing about dim Sum Garden on Ray
Street in Philly. You have to go. The line sometimes
is out of control, but bring cash. They don't accept cards,
So fast your place for dumplings dim Sum. There's a
Pakistani restaurant and West Philly called Woggy Wall. I've never
in my life had Pakistani food for in my life
(08:07):
before moving to Philly. This is the only Pakistani food
I've ever had. So if it's not, I mean the
people they are from Pakistan, I assume it's authentic. But
it is so good. It's like a different kind of non,
like the non they serve. Its slightly different than like
an an Indian non and definitely different than like a roadie,
(08:28):
but it's so good. They give you like a whole
like round. It's like a pizza round of their non
which is good. I get the chicken tika masala. Wow.
Those are like the two big places that I have
during the pandemic because I live in upstate New York
now and our food scene in Ithaca is just not
(08:48):
it's it's just not where it needs to be. During
the pandemic, we can't go anywhere, you know, our our
shops are shut down and our restaurants are shut down
anyways for dining indoors take out. You know, if the
food's already subpart takeout, it's going to be even worse.
So we drove three and a half hours to Philly
(09:10):
twice in the past two years just to get dim
Sum Garden and Woggy Wall take out. Drive it back home,
heat it up, and eat it. No, lie, that's how
good this food is. So yeah, yo, I can't knock
the hustle. I respect that choice because during the pandemic,
I have thought several times about the food in Philly,
(09:31):
and now you've given me additional food to think about.
I have a friend in my phone. I text her
sometimes just to be like, boy, that herb oil situation
on those hogies, and she'll be like what Why is
that what I'm getting here? Why am I? Why are
we doing this? And I'm like it's important and I
don't know what you want from me. I'm just letting
you know. Is there a way you could get like
(09:52):
a bottle of that and send it to me down
here because it's not it's not computing here. So I
thank you for that because I was like, I feel
like Cole is going to know the vibes, and you
did know the vibes. Thank you, Cole for them. I too,
Philly want to take a tour there. I too, It
would be a longer drive for me, Cole. But when
you said that, I was kind of like, it's like
(10:14):
a little bit of consideration, a little bit of consideration, Cole.
What is your favorite black movie? Oh, Moonlight. It's not
even just my favorite black movie. It's just my favorite
movie Moonlight. I don't know what critique you can give
that film. It's beautiful art nuance. I mean talk about
(10:35):
nuance black characters instead of caricatures. There are some nuanced
characters in that and that film that will stay with
me until I die. You can see in light. Today
is the day, Tonight is the night. Oh Chet y'all
have to see it. It's it's kind of like I think,
and I remember I watched this before the pandemic, but
(10:56):
I watched it at home. I didn't watch it in
the theater. And there are some movies that I'm like, man,
that's a movie you should see in the theater, and
I'm I'm certain I would have enjoyed Moonlight in the theater.
But there was something about being at home taking in
that film, taking in the cinematography. I loved how gorgeous
(11:17):
the skin of the characters. Um, there were so many
scenes where the light on the skin was just so beautiful,
and so many layers to that story. Uh, Like I
don't There was something some some sort of sense of
like comfort or the way I took that in at
home that I don't know if I would have taken
it in exactly that way the same if I had
(11:40):
watched it um in a theater. So shout out to that.
I recommend y'all tonight to your night get involved with Moonlight.
It is everything beautiful. What is your favorite? It could
be a black girl hairstyle as far as a hairstyle
you loved when you were a little girl, or it
could be currently your favorite black woman hairstyle that you
(12:00):
love to wear. It's got to be Senegalese twist for me.
I mean, I know it might only be a few
weeks that they actually stay stay in, but I just
feel regal. I feel so regal when I have twist
or braids, and I feel more mature. I feel like,
I don't know, I just this seems weird to say,
(12:21):
but like twists braids have a way of like making
me take myself more seriously. I don't know if it's
because the woman I admired growing up would have their
hair and braided styles, but yeah, I like the way
the twist look, but they just don't they just don't last.
Then the last all the time. But yeah, that's my
favorite favorite hairstyle when I can get it done. Times
(12:44):
being what they are, it's hard to get my hair
downe the way I want right, No, that's a fair point.
I feel like the pandemic has sort of I think
it's given me more dreams of styles I wish I
could try that I might not have access to at
the moment. And then there are a few things I've
learned how to I learned how to do better myself
because that was the option what to do at my house.
(13:08):
So I learned how to flat twist a lot better.
Those flat twists were a struggle before the pandemic, but
here we are, I just had time to practice. So
I did talk to me about your favorite song to
get the party started, Like if you were at a party,
what's the song that the DJ plays that you're like
(13:30):
and now the party has started. Okay, this is an
interesting question for me because I'm I'm not a party person.
I mean, someone call me boring, but let me really
try to take it back to like my college years.
Maybe was there something in me? Probably not, I'll tell you,
(13:53):
Like when I'm in the car, what's like some pump
up music so stretch? Because I only listened to like
sad like. I mean, it could be a different type
of party, Cole. Maybe it's not the type of party
that people you know are raising the roof or whatever.
Maybe your party is more of a of a contemplative nature.
(14:15):
That's fine, that's true. That's my party. We're sitting. It's
candle a candlelit living room. We're putting on hotels at
the time. That's what we're putting on. That's a good choice.
Shout out to Jasmin Sullivan. I want to give a
big shout out to that. Also, I want to give
a shout out to this grammy that Jasmine Sullivan just
(14:39):
wan for hotels and the way the way she got okay, okay.
First of all, finally, thank you Cole because yes, and
the way she held this space for black women when
she got up there to make her acceptance speech, like yes,
I just had to touch my hands to my heart
(14:59):
for a few minutes. I was like, come on, I
was like I was. I was having that moment of like, oh, Jasmine,
I'm looking at you. I'm so happy to see you winning,
you know, like I'm just happy for you. Congrats to you.
And then that she sort of turned that moment back
to us and said like black women, this is for you.
I was like, this is so congratulaceous to me. I
(15:22):
love to see that. Yeah, beautiful. Oh that's a great
one that I I do think Number one, I do
think that gets the party started. And I love envisioning
various ascentray types of party and coal It doesn't all
have to look the same. And I like, I like
that you brought this into the living room. You can
(15:43):
have a party to to to contemplate some things, you know,
to sit in the room with the people, hold space
with them. I get it. I feel it. M Yes,
thank you for liberating me into that that that kind
of that's the kind of party vibe. I'm her. I
feel it. Okay, now I'm gonna ask you this. You're
(16:04):
welcome to pass, but if you're willing to share. Do
you have a favorite cuss word? I don't have a favorite.
I'm the one I probably say the most. It's probably
damn No, it's probably ship. I probably say ship the most. Yeah,
you can draw it out, you know, she come oh, Michael. Yes,
(16:29):
it lends itself to like to poetry, you know, to Yeah,
it's it is its own answer. It's like somehow someone
could be asking a question and she could be the answer.
The people who know no, when they hear that answer,
(16:50):
they're like, and I think you you have told me
everything I need to know. You could be asking that
person about a store they went to, about if they
know so and so about if they went to the
it that was last week, and if they say she,
which typically to me is followed with followed with or
preceded by some sort of mouth noise. It's like A
(17:13):
or she. It's a little mixed like that. Cole like, yes,
what what gravity that word has? I like it. That's
a good woman, that's a good choice. Thank you. I
(17:34):
want to talk a little bit about Tony Morrison, and
the work of Tony Morrison comes up in black liturgies.
We're also seeing this here in the book. I want
to talk about her work and how her work is
a spiritual influence with you. Talk to me more about that, sure,
(17:55):
Tony Morrison. So I first encountered her work in college.
I'm trying to figure out a book I had read
by a black author before college. I'm currently trying to
revisit some memories and trying to figure out did I
even read Black Office before college? But I encountered her
work for the first time in college. Of course knew
who she was, but I had never actually read anything.
(18:17):
And that was around the time that I was first
really experiencing a Christian spaces for the first time, or
overtly Christian spaces. And this is the first time I
was going to church regularly on my own, and it
was a very wide evangelical space. I should say. And
(18:37):
to me, everything about college was just new, like people
in my family didn't go to college, and it was
just very different from the place I was coming from.
And so I kind of just looped everything that happened
to me into like this one big box of like
this is the unknown, this is new. So it was
(18:58):
very difficult for me to kind of distinguish what I
was learning in the classroom, you know, from the first time,
to separate that from what I was experiencing and learning
in church for the first time. I just couldn't compartmentalize
those things, like the compartment was college, um. And so
I found myself bringing black I studied English literature. In
(19:23):
the end, I found myself bringing black authors into the
pew with me, and I mean, thank god I had
them to help me interrogate some of the things I
was hearing or the kind of binaries that were being presented.
I just didn't find those spiritual binaries in black literature,
and I certainly didn't find them in more sins work.
(19:44):
To explain that, I think Black literature, especially Morrison, there's
something about how she was able to articulate the spiritual
that wasn't about certainty and it wasn't about clarity. It
was a out conveying, conveying the human experience and including
(20:04):
the spiritual in that human experience as opposed to this
is what this means and and ex equals this and
and I just love that and gravitated toward that kind
of mystery. So beloved, Yeah, it's the most terrifying Morrison
book I I would say, but it's closest to me
and closest to my spiritual formation. And beloved, there's this
(20:28):
kind of famous clearing. This Tony Morrison gives us the
space of the clearing where if you if you haven't
read it, that the matriarch baby sub she gathers her people.
She sits into the in the middle of the clearing
on this rock, and that the women and the men
and the children and the people are are kind of
(20:48):
waiting on the perimeter. And she says, you know, children,
let the children come and and and she says, let
your mother's hear you laugh, and and the kids break
out laughing. And then she said, men, you know, come,
let let your wives and children see you dance. And
then the you know, the men start dancing. And then
she calls the woman to the center and says, cry
(21:11):
for the living and the dead, just cry, and the
woman let loose, and and she describes the scene where,
you know, the the women start laughing in the end,
and the men sit down and start crying, and the
children start dancing, and they all get tangled up in
each other and then exhausted, they just kind of lay
there together. And then she gives her sermon, and Morrison
(21:34):
very specifically says she didn't she didn't tell them to
go and sin no more, which is like the typical
maybe white evangelical message, you know, go and send that's
the gospel, you know. She says she didn't tell them that.
She called them to awaken to grace. And then she
delivers the sermon that's all about the body. Like um
(21:55):
in this year place, we flesh, flesh that weeps, laughs,
flesh that dances on bare feet and grass love it.
And it's this message of loving the body, loving the flesh.
And anyways, all that to say that moment of the clearing,
it's intergenerational, you know, it's storied, it's emotional. It's not
a practice of the mind. It's emotional. It's embodied. And
(22:19):
whenever I think about what I want my spirituality to
be that's where I go. That's the kind of spirituality
I want to possess. So was Beloved your your gateway
into Tony Morrison's work? Was that the first book of
hers that you remember encountering? Yes, it was, that was
the first. Yeah, she didn't scare me away, but I mean, yeah,
(22:43):
that was that was the first. And it's hard, it's
it's hard to wait there. There's a real disorientation in
the beginning of a lot of her work, and a
lot of in a similar way kind of to like
Octavia Butler, there's this beginning that is just so disorienting
that you're trying to figure out what's up, what's down,
What's who's this, who's that? You know, you have the
(23:04):
matriarch being called baby babies. You know, there's so much
distorted and you could talk for ages about that, the
beauty and that, but there's something about the beginning of
Beloved that's just the slow connections. And she's not quick
to resolve, and I think people like things that resolve
right now, people want things to resolve and more thin,
(23:26):
it's really disinterested in that, which challenged me. Yeah. Still,
I mean I love the idea that you were carrying
some of this work into a church setting. I just
love that, because so many of Tony Morrison's books feel
so much like a spiritual text. I think that's such
(23:49):
a powerful thing to think about. I'm like, let's see
what Tony more some books I have downstairs. Next time
I'll go in the church, Johnny, let me let me
grab one of those. And they'll be like, somebody be
sitting next to me, like what is this? This is
not I'm turned to a page and we're not on
the same the same, and I'm like, you mind your
business and let me do what I'm doing here. I
(24:10):
think my initial gateway into Tony's work was Our Baby.
My mom had that book for some reason in her library,
and I remember taking it out and opening up the
first couple of pages, and I was young enough to
know that I was reading something amazing, and I did
not understand a word of you. I was like, this
(24:34):
is amazing. What is she talking about? I don't know?
And then I think I tried Beloved at twelve, and
it was all manner of confusions. It was all manner
of who's alive and who died and who died? But
(24:54):
it's still like all of them. I mean, now Cole,
I have which which is something that I really loved
about this here, Flesh. I loved this about your book.
It had this, It had this sense of feeling so grounded,
so rooted, rooted in people in place. I loved that,
(25:17):
And I loved that there was this way you sort
of left a lot of space out there for us
as the reader. You left a lot of space for
us to not come into the text of your book
and feel like you were there to give us answers.
You were there to sort of be this in some ways,
(25:38):
you sometimes felt like you were author but also observing,
and that you were sort of encouraging us as the reader.
We step back and sort of we look, we see,
we think about what we perceive, right, And then there
were times you're sort of inviting us into stories that
happened to you or happened to members of your family.
And then there were times that in that you were
(25:59):
sort of there at the center of the story because
it is happening to you, or as the stories being
told to you, you know. And I loved that sort
of breathing room that you left in there. And I
think that is something. As a writer, I always admired
about authors like Tony Morrison that it was not to
(26:20):
write a story to say, and here we derive an
answer that that was never the point that it was
to say, and here we are being, We're present in
a space. We'll laugh, will cry, we will wonder. The
page may end and we still don't know what happened
to so and so, And maybe you need to think
(26:41):
about that, reader, you know, Um, I really really loved that.
Do you have a favorite of Tony Morrison's work that
you love or is beloved that favorite for you? Belove
it is definitely that favorite. I mean, it's traumatizing trauma
(27:02):
on those pages, but there's so much beauty and I
just think it's so complicated. Maybe in a similar for
for similar reasons, is why I love Moonlight. Yeah, it's
like it's it's such a such a complicated story where
you know a person's motives are never completely clear. You know,
(27:23):
no one is completely good, no one's completely evil. I
think it's yeah, I mean you see that in a
lot of her work, but Belove it's definitely definitely my favorite.
I was thinking when you were talking about that clearing scene,
and I was like, what of Tony Morrison's work makes
me feel that feeling? I think for me, it's the
(27:45):
character of Pilot and Song of Solomon. I have actually
mentioned this too a couple of friends to say, as
I think about my black woman's spirituality at this season
of my life, I sort of imagine myself in certain
ways how Pilot appears in that story. For those of
you that haven't read it, I mean everything that Tony
(28:08):
Morrison writes, just go just go read it. But in
Song of Solomon, I, if I'm remembering right, I would
love to reread this again. Now. I also sort of
entered Tony Morrison's work really in college. I had those
initial encounters when I was younger, but when you're in college,
you're now getting to read these texts and sort of
(28:28):
pull certain things out of that and think about the themes.
And you have other historical texts that may be sitting
around that, or other fictional text sitting around that, which
is something that, um, I don't want to go back
to some of how college was, but that part I
did love, you know. I'm like, I wouldn't want to
write all the essays again. Maybe not that part, but
(28:49):
the part where the books got to be in conversation
with each other. Really loved that. And there was this
sense in Song of Solomon that Pilot and her daughters,
who are technically aunt and cousin to these other male
characters that we're hearing about, that they're sort of existing
on the periphery of what is considered acceptable in the
(29:14):
society of their town. They to me seemed like these
black women with harry legs and who will not shave
an under arm, and who will dress however, they will
dress and it doesn't matter or whatever is in fashion
in the department store down there. We're here growing cabbage
and growing collars outside of our house vibes, you know.
(29:36):
And I was like, the older I get, the more
and more I feel a little like that. I feel
a little like I's starting to like. But I guess
it a way cold spiritually, you know, sort of looking
at some of these characters in the same way that
you were talking about this character and Beloved. There's something
about Pilot being this black woman with no belly button
(29:57):
Tony Morrison, and we have this question and of remember,
does she birth herself? Is that why she has no
belly button? And we're not given any explanation as to why.
It is not really addressed pretty much at any point
later in the book. There's a lot of other things
(30:17):
going on, but I just gravitated to her and just thought, spiritually,
what does that mean? What does it mean? What are
the ways a black woman gives birth to herself? What
does that look like? Uh? That a writer could make
you contemplate those things. It's amazing what I was just
reading you writing about Beloved and this year Flesh and
(30:40):
even some of that terminology of this year Flesh sort
of coming back to us from Tony Morrison. I just thought,
I resonate with that, Cole, I resonate with how to
meet your book and what you were talking about their
and Beloved are in conversation. Did you feel that way too? Yes,
I mean I was hoping I was. It's a tall order.
It's hard to kind of approach her work because for
(31:03):
so many of us she's just hero. But I knew,
if I'm going to write a book that contains Christianity,
I need to really be faithful to the way black
literature spiritually formed me. You know, I wanted to be
faithful to my the entirety of my spiritual formation which
exists in and outside of a Christian tradition. And it
(31:26):
included black literature. It included you know, my family who
aren't overtly religious, and so I needed to pull in,
you know, things like storytelling and things like myth even
so that it felt true that, you know, my dad,
he's such a big part of the book. He wouldn't
say he's a Christian. So how could I write a
book that contains so many of his stories and these precious,
(31:49):
these sacred artifacts and have the book contained by Christianity alone.
It just didn't feel right. I needed to incorporate these
other things. And in that way I was able to
kind of approach people like Morrison and really figure out, Man,
what did this do to me? You know? How is
this a sacred text to me? And who are people
(32:11):
in my life who are going to be terrified to
hear that this is a sacred text to me? You know?
And do I care? Do I want them? Do I
want them in the writing room with me? You know?
So yeah, I brought up a lot of good questions.
Mm hmmm mmm, I love that I want to ask. Also,
I guess I have a question that sort of comes
with a comment or a reflection on something. I also
(32:35):
loved about the way you chose to approach spirituality and
spiritual practice in this book. I really loved that it
seemed like there was this space for the reader, like,
if you're here, reader, and Christian tradition is what you
ascribe to your welcome if you're here reader, and you
(32:55):
don't ascribe to that at all, You're welcome if you're
here reader, and used to ascribe to that, and now
you've got lots of questions and tensions here you're welcome
to And I think that's a wonderful gift in a
book that wants to bring sort of questions and beauty
(33:18):
and tensions of spirituality to the table, to be that
welcoming that in a text people would feel like they
can come to the page there wherever they are. Was
that something that as you were writing felt like contentional
on your part or did you feel as you were
bringing your family stories, your own stories affirmation that that
(33:41):
was just a present theme for you as well? It
was intentional because I've read books by authors who are
a Christian not kind of are trying very hard to
teach you what to think and what to believe. And
I think, you know, maybe Christianity didn't have the history
(34:02):
that it did that would feel less problematic, but because
it's been so perverted in and through white supremacy, Yeah,
I had to. I I really wanted to push myself
to to be honest about all of my uncertainties. The
thing about what how how whiteness moves in in in
spiritual spaces, specifically in Christianity, is you know, that supremacy
(34:25):
that it craves in terms of politics, in terms of
socio economic power. It also craves in terms of religion.
It doesn't just want to, you know, have a spirituality.
It's spirituality needs to be supreme, it needs to be
the best thing. It needs to be the right thing.
And so so much of our so much of christian
formation in certain spaces, is about convincing you that you
(34:48):
are right, this is right, and these other things aren't right.
And I think that's completely you know, a symptom of
white supremacy and mostly that and I just resist that.
I reject that. I don't want that to be my
spiritual formation. It's hard, that's hard, conditioning that that a
lot of us have endured that your your spiritual belief
(35:08):
system has to be above in order for it to be,
in order for it to matter, in order for it
to be meaningful. I've always been a skeptic. My you know,
the thing that my family says about me is will say,
Nicole was born a skeptic. You came out as a
skeptic um from the time I was a child. And
I've always been a very uncertain person, a very like
(35:28):
you know, maybe maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And
to be honest about that in writing this first book
was really important because you know, ultimately I'm gonna have
to answer to myself, my fifty year old self, my
six year old self. I want to be able to
look back and say I told the truth. You know,
I m I probably said some things that were wrong.
(35:50):
I probably I probably said things that I, you know,
won't believe anymore by the time I'm sixty. But did
I tell the truth? And that became the lens through
which I wrote, like, are you telling the truth about
you with the information that you have and the experiences
that you've had to this point. And as long as
I did that, I had that kind of fidelity to self.
(36:12):
I feel like I was able to write very compassionately
towards readers who really don't know what they think. You know,
we really don't know what they believe, but they're they've
been trained to think that they're supposed to know exact
all these things with certainty. Do you have a favorite
spiritual practice right now or in this season of your life? Yes,
(36:33):
I have complicated feelings about this spiritual practice that I've
criticized it. Actually it's silence. Um, yeah, I think there
are a lot of valid critiques that I share about
silence is spiritual practice, especially you know, for those of
us who have been silenced by the societies that were
being brought up in my whiteness. And so I have
(36:55):
a complicated relationship with silence because I I was not
very verbal child. I talked about that in the books.
Some I had something called selective mutism, which is, you know,
a childhood anxiety disorder essentially just makes it very difficult
to speak around strangers. So I've always had a very
(37:17):
tricky relationship with silence, like it always felt like something
I needed to overcome and conquer. But in this season,
it's been really healing for me to try to find
some good was there something. Was there something special in
those moments of silence that I shared with myself as
a little girl. You know, maybe there was something that
(37:38):
was all about insecurity and anxiety, but also was there
something else there, something I was listening to and myself that,
you know, a way that I became nearer to myself.
So anyways, I've been trying to practice a kind of
redemptive silence and it feels really empowering. M hmm. I
love that. I love adding the word redemptive to that,
or redemptive silence, the just sort of finding sometimes a
(38:02):
fresh way or a different way, and maybe a different
way than maybe what we were taught of how we
use silence or how we're supposed to embrace that or not,
you know, all the things. I love the idea that
even finding new or different ways to do that can
be redemptive. I want to read a quote from your book.
You wrote, joy, which once felt as frivolous as love
(38:24):
to me, has become essential virtue in my spirituality. I
am convinced that if we are to survive the weight
of justice and liberation, we must become people capable of
delight and people who have been delighted in. I love that.
What's bringing you joy right now? Well, reading usually brings
(38:48):
me joy, but specifically I'm reading two books. I'm reading
Pleasure Activism and I'm reading Black Joy by Tracy Lewis Giggets.
There's m in there. I think I'm reading Black Joy anyway.
It's a bright yellow book, red and black lettering, and
everyone should go out and buy it at a local bookstore.
(39:11):
And it's bringing I mean that book in particular. Both
of those books in different ways of bringing me joy,
because they're really giving me permission to experience joy in
the ways that feel right to me, as opposed to
mimicking the joy around me. And I think, just like
many emotions, although I think joy is something bigger than
an emotion, but I think, like many other emotions in
(39:33):
my life, I contend to mirror them and other people
as opposed to actually having them originate in me and
like emany out. Instead, it's like they come to me
and they kind of rest on my skin, but they
don't ever really get in. And I think that's what
joy has been for so long. And you know, both
of those books is just telling me it's okay, what
(39:54):
does this look like for you? And for me it
might not look like you know, my sister or who's
very very verbal and very charismatic and just so fun.
And for me, it looks like more peace. It looks
like you know, sitting and you know, staring at something
beautiful and trying to find some sense of peace and
(40:17):
trying to be honest about the things that I delight
in as opposed to hiding from them. Mm hmm. I
also want to ask you this question related to joy
as well. As people read this year Flesh, what do
you hope they understand about the connection between joy and liberation.
I hope that they would understand that the journey towards
(40:41):
liberation and deeper liberation, it doesn't need your Your liberation
isn't isn't bigger, It's not deeper, you know, the deeper
your trauma is, or something like that, which I think
we we never articulate that necessarily, but I think that
you know, those are the stories were given. You know
that the end ding, the ending is better because of
(41:02):
the depth of the pain. I used to think that, Um, Sadly,
I don't think that anymore. I think you're we will
not get there. We I don't think we'll get there.
And I'm not talking about liberation as linear. I mean
I won't get there on a day to day basis.
I won't. I can't approach it if I don't have
some kind of habits and systems set up in my
(41:24):
life that will keep me from despair. Because I think
liberation demands that we've become very honest about the pain
and about the terrors, you know, demands kind of an
unflinching awareness of all those things. I'm not if you're
really if you're really telling the truth, if you're really
paying attention to the pain, I find it very difficult
(41:45):
to believe that you can approach liberation without first becoming
succumb by despair. And I think, you know, joy keeps
us from that. And I think we're seeing that, you know,
this explosion in the past few years of literature, art
of content, if you want to call it that online,
that is kind of just pulling. You know that you
(42:06):
see something different that's pulling on black people. You know,
in the wake of the summer, for example, and what
was pulling at other people. You know, there was this
sinister kind of hunger for pain awakened in some people.
But then I saw and like my black friends, there
was this appetite for joy and people didn't understand it.
(42:29):
They didn't know what to do with the memes and
the videos and the like, how could you do this now?
You know? And it's like you don't know. This is
how we this is how we've survived, and we have
we have inherited this, We haven't inherited this very rich
system of joy as a means not for just survival
but also thriving, you know, and and flourishing. So anyways,
(42:52):
that was a rant. That was a bit of a rant.
But unless someone was like demeaned joy for so long,
I feel like I'm speaking to myself, you know. Yeah, yeah,
I love a good rankle. So you know, anytime you
have a rant, you know, I'm always I'm always here
for that. I keep a little rant in my pocket
just because you never know what you need. One need
(43:15):
a little rant sometimes, that's all Cole, How can the
people stay connected to you and your New York Times
bestselling book and your work? Tell me where the people
should go? This here flash. It's available anywhere books are sold,
but preferably um a local block owned bookstore. You could
(43:38):
buy it there. That just yeah, does extra work really,
And then you can find me at cool Arthur Riley
dot com and there will lead you to any social
media that you have that you want to follow. But
you can also sign up for my newsletter where I'll
share you know, if I have articles published places, so
go to their people, go to there and do those things. Cole,
(44:02):
what an honor to get to speak with you today.
It's been so great, my honor. Like, I'm so excited.
I'm so excited. So thank you for being here with
us in the her living room. I cannot handle the
spice of those flaming hot doritos, but I would be
with you while you had some while we're here in
(44:24):
the lib Yes, I would do that. I would be
here with you. So thank you so much for joining me.
Her with Amina Brown is produced by Matt Owen for
(44:46):
Slogarfiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast
Network and partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening
and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
Hey, everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of Her
with Amina Brown. And I've just had a lot of
like strange schedule things going on, y'all, so I haven't
been able to bring guests back into the living room.
But it is that time. It is that time today,
and I'm very excited about the guests who will be
here with us in our living room. Creator and writer
(00:52):
of Black Liturgies, a project that integrates spiritual practice with
black emotion, black literature, and the Black Body, New York
Times best selling author of This Here, Flesh, Spirituality, Liberation,
and the Stories that make Us Welcome to her living room,
Cole Arthur Riley, thanks for having me. I know the
(01:15):
people are clapping too, Cole. I mean some of them
are driving so they can't. But the other people that
aren't driving, they just clapped too. I know they didn't. Well, Cole,
thank you so much for joining me, y'all. I am
so excited. Cole and I are just like meeting, meeting,
like getting a chance to talk in real time for
the first time. But I was very honored to be
(01:35):
one of the folks who had the opportunity to get
an early read on this here flesh and had the
honor of being one of the folks to get to
write some words of an endorsement about this book. So
New York Times the best selling author Cole, how does
it feel? It still feels like a dream. Honestly, it's
it's it's when you know people like you say it
(01:56):
that I'm like, oh, that that happened, that was that
was But yeah, it feels good and scary, and but yeah,
I'm happy. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm so excited for
you and excited for the readers as well. I mean,
I know many of us, many of you listening, have
probably already been enjoying Cole's writing in your essays and articles,
(02:21):
and for those of us who are followers of black liturgies,
we've been enjoying, uh, some pieces of the things that
you write. But to get a chance to sort of
see in this book, there is this sort of fullness
that when you have encountered a writer in other short
forms of writing and then you get a chance to
read their book, you know you're sort of getting more
(02:41):
of the story of them, the story of their process,
in more of a fullness. Even though I know about
book writing, there are many things we have to leave
out of that, out of that process, but how exciting.
So I have to start with something that's very important,
which is snacks. And I'm starting with snacks cole as
the question that I want to ask you about because
(03:03):
this this is leading into Philly food and I do
need to be honest about that, but I just want
to start in general with snacks because what I think
about this podcast. I always think about what I do
with my girlfriends, and we typically get together in one
another's living rooms and we're always sort of piecing together
some type of snacks. If we're having a night that
(03:23):
we're like, I don't want to go out, I don't
want to see other people. I don't wanna I don't
want to do that restaurant like, I just want to
come to your house and tell you us up. I
want to cuss, I want to watch TV, whatever it is,
and we typically sort of bring our little piece meal
snack situations together. So when you get together with your girlfriends,
what is your favorite snack to bring? Okay, in the
(03:45):
past two years, this is what I'm bringing. Flaming hot dorritos,
not the cheetos. The doritos and if you can find
the like super flaming hot doritos that just hurt on
the way down. That's what I'm bringing, so good twizzlers usually,
and then I know this isn't really like. People don't
(04:06):
consider this like snack food so much. But crazins to me,
crazins tastes like candy and I will stick beside them.
I love crazins. It's like a sweet kind of like tart,
you know. Addition, I thank you for bringing crazins into
the chat because they are not spoken of enough in
(04:27):
my opinion. I I have done my own sort of
impromptu trail mix situation in a crazings bag, just through
some peanuts up in there, through an almond or two,
a sunflower seats shook that up, and I'm there already.
I don't even have to try to find a trail
mix that has the mix of things I like. Crazins
are where it's at, people boy on a salad sprinkle
(04:50):
some crazy people. Yeah, it does the work, makes everything
go down easier. Crazy that like sweet tart situation. I
want to thank you for bringing that to the table. Well,
this is my segue. We know from reading this year,
Flesh that you have sort of a rootedness there in
Pennsylvania and mainly in Pittsburgh, Right, but you do have
(05:10):
some roots in Philly as well, right, Yeah, Yeah, I
lived in Philly for a number of years. I need
to talk to you about Philly food for a moment here,
because I went to Philly and I am a person
who enjoys a city for its food. I am into that,
and I went to Philly and I really was there.
I mean, maybe this is touristy of me, but I
(05:32):
really am there just trying to get this authentic cheese
steak and I did that. It was great. But I
really need to tell you what really changed my life
about Philly is the HOGI like I I have a
lot of emotional feelings about the hogies that I have
enjoyed there. And there's some kind of a First of all,
(05:52):
I think the bread is not available where I live
in Atlanta. I don't think people say they're making hogies
down here. I'm not sure they are because I don't
think the bread's right. And then there's some sort of
an herb oil. There's something going on with some oil
and some vinegar that when I try to buy those
ingredients at the store and make a sandwich at my house.
It's not doing what the Hogi is doing in Philly.
(06:17):
So I would like to hear your thoughts about hogs
and then I would like to hear if you could
recommend like the food people should eat in Philly. What
would you say? Please discuss? Okay, I love a HOGI.
I think Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania we love a HOGI. Like you,
you order pizza, but you can't order pizza without ordering
(06:40):
a Hogi where I'm from and in Philly, I think
it's all in the bread. We're not at like New
York City level with our breads, but we're trying. I
can't remember the place we used to go. I want
to say Geno's, but that doesn't sound right. Maybe I'll
send it to you after and you can include a
Hogi shop in the show notes. I'm a big fan
(07:02):
of dim Sum. Speak a word about dim Sum today.
Love dim Sum. I love the community. I mean COVID
times have kind of change things a little bit, but
it's this communal feeling. You know, you can have a
little bit of everything for people who have buyers remorse,
you know, are afraid it's low risk, you know, because
(07:22):
there's always something else that's being rotated. So love dim Sum.
There's a place called dim Sum Garden on Race Street
in Philly. Best soup dumplings I've ever had anywhere, including
New York City. Don't come for me, don't come to seek,
but best. I went to New York City, I was like, Oh,
I can't wait for these soup dumplings. They were good,
(07:44):
but I was fantasizing about dim Sum Garden on Ray
Street in Philly. You have to go. The line sometimes
is out of control, but bring cash. They don't accept cards,
So fast your place for dumplings dim Sum. There's a
Pakistani restaurant and West Philly called Woggy Wall. I've never
in my life had Pakistani food for in my life
(08:07):
before moving to Philly. This is the only Pakistani food
I've ever had. So if it's not, I mean the
people they are from Pakistan, I assume it's authentic. But
it is so good. It's like a different kind of non,
like the non they serve. Its slightly different than like
an an Indian non and definitely different than like a roadie,
(08:28):
but it's so good. They give you like a whole
like round. It's like a pizza round of their non
which is good. I get the chicken tika masala. Wow.
Those are like the two big places that I have
during the pandemic because I live in upstate New York
now and our food scene in Ithaca is just not
(08:48):
it's it's just not where it needs to be. During
the pandemic, we can't go anywhere, you know, our our
shops are shut down and our restaurants are shut down
anyways for dining indoors take out. You know, if the
food's already subpart takeout, it's going to be even worse.
So we drove three and a half hours to Philly
(09:10):
twice in the past two years just to get dim
Sum Garden and Woggy Wall take out. Drive it back home,
heat it up, and eat it. No, lie, that's how
good this food is. So yeah, yo, I can't knock
the hustle. I respect that choice because during the pandemic,
I have thought several times about the food in Philly,
(09:31):
and now you've given me additional food to think about.
I have a friend in my phone. I text her
sometimes just to be like, boy, that herb oil situation
on those hogies, and she'll be like what Why is
that what I'm getting here? Why am I? Why are
we doing this? And I'm like it's important and I
don't know what you want from me. I'm just letting
you know. Is there a way you could get like
(09:52):
a bottle of that and send it to me down
here because it's not it's not computing here. So I
thank you for that because I was like, I feel
like Cole is going to know the vibes, and you
did know the vibes. Thank you, Cole for them. I too,
Philly want to take a tour there. I too, It
would be a longer drive for me, Cole. But when
you said that, I was kind of like, it's like
(10:14):
a little bit of consideration, a little bit of consideration, Cole.
What is your favorite black movie? Oh, Moonlight. It's not
even just my favorite black movie. It's just my favorite
movie Moonlight. I don't know what critique you can give
that film. It's beautiful art nuance. I mean talk about
(10:35):
nuance black characters instead of caricatures. There are some nuanced
characters in that and that film that will stay with
me until I die. You can see in light. Today
is the day, Tonight is the night. Oh Chet y'all
have to see it. It's it's kind of like I think,
and I remember I watched this before the pandemic, but
(10:56):
I watched it at home. I didn't watch it in
the theater. And there are some movies that I'm like, man,
that's a movie you should see in the theater, and
I'm I'm certain I would have enjoyed Moonlight in the theater.
But there was something about being at home taking in
that film, taking in the cinematography. I loved how gorgeous
(11:17):
the skin of the characters. Um, there were so many
scenes where the light on the skin was just so beautiful,
and so many layers to that story. Uh, Like I
don't There was something some some sort of sense of
like comfort or the way I took that in at
home that I don't know if I would have taken
it in exactly that way the same if I had
(11:40):
watched it um in a theater. So shout out to that.
I recommend y'all tonight to your night get involved with Moonlight.
It is everything beautiful. What is your favorite? It could
be a black girl hairstyle as far as a hairstyle
you loved when you were a little girl, or it
could be currently your favorite black woman hairstyle that you
(12:00):
love to wear. It's got to be Senegalese twist for me.
I mean, I know it might only be a few
weeks that they actually stay stay in, but I just
feel regal. I feel so regal when I have twist
or braids, and I feel more mature. I feel like,
I don't know, I just this seems weird to say,
(12:21):
but like twists braids have a way of like making
me take myself more seriously. I don't know if it's
because the woman I admired growing up would have their
hair and braided styles, but yeah, I like the way
the twist look, but they just don't they just don't last.
Then the last all the time. But yeah, that's my
favorite favorite hairstyle when I can get it done. Times
(12:44):
being what they are, it's hard to get my hair
downe the way I want right, No, that's a fair point.
I feel like the pandemic has sort of I think
it's given me more dreams of styles I wish I
could try that I might not have access to at
the moment. And then there are a few things I've
learned how to I learned how to do better myself
because that was the option what to do at my house.
(13:08):
So I learned how to flat twist a lot better.
Those flat twists were a struggle before the pandemic, but
here we are, I just had time to practice. So
I did talk to me about your favorite song to
get the party started, Like if you were at a party,
what's the song that the DJ plays that you're like
(13:30):
and now the party has started. Okay, this is an
interesting question for me because I'm I'm not a party person.
I mean, someone call me boring, but let me really
try to take it back to like my college years.
Maybe was there something in me? Probably not, I'll tell you,
(13:53):
Like when I'm in the car, what's like some pump
up music so stretch? Because I only listened to like
sad like. I mean, it could be a different type
of party, Cole. Maybe it's not the type of party
that people you know are raising the roof or whatever.
Maybe your party is more of a of a contemplative nature.
(14:15):
That's fine, that's true. That's my party. We're sitting. It's
candle a candlelit living room. We're putting on hotels at
the time. That's what we're putting on. That's a good choice.
Shout out to Jasmin Sullivan. I want to give a
big shout out to that. Also, I want to give
a shout out to this grammy that Jasmine Sullivan just
(14:39):
wan for hotels and the way the way she got okay, okay.
First of all, finally, thank you Cole because yes, and
the way she held this space for black women when
she got up there to make her acceptance speech, like yes,
I just had to touch my hands to my heart
(14:59):
for a few minutes. I was like, come on, I
was like I was. I was having that moment of like, oh, Jasmine,
I'm looking at you. I'm so happy to see you winning,
you know, like I'm just happy for you. Congrats to you.
And then that she sort of turned that moment back
to us and said like black women, this is for you.
I was like, this is so congratulaceous to me. I
(15:22):
love to see that. Yeah, beautiful. Oh that's a great
one that I I do think Number one, I do
think that gets the party started. And I love envisioning
various ascentray types of party and coal It doesn't all
have to look the same. And I like, I like
that you brought this into the living room. You can
(15:43):
have a party to to to contemplate some things, you know,
to sit in the room with the people, hold space
with them. I get it. I feel it. M Yes,
thank you for liberating me into that that that kind
of that's the kind of party vibe. I'm her. I
feel it. Okay, now I'm gonna ask you this. You're
(16:04):
welcome to pass, but if you're willing to share. Do
you have a favorite cuss word? I don't have a favorite.
I'm the one I probably say the most. It's probably
damn No, it's probably ship. I probably say ship the most. Yeah,
you can draw it out, you know, she come oh, Michael. Yes,
(16:29):
it lends itself to like to poetry, you know, to Yeah,
it's it is its own answer. It's like somehow someone
could be asking a question and she could be the answer.
The people who know no, when they hear that answer,
(16:50):
they're like, and I think you you have told me
everything I need to know. You could be asking that
person about a store they went to, about if they
know so and so about if they went to the
it that was last week, and if they say she,
which typically to me is followed with followed with or
preceded by some sort of mouth noise. It's like A
(17:13):
or she. It's a little mixed like that. Cole like, yes,
what what gravity that word has? I like it. That's
a good woman, that's a good choice. Thank you. I
(17:34):
want to talk a little bit about Tony Morrison, and
the work of Tony Morrison comes up in black liturgies.
We're also seeing this here in the book. I want
to talk about her work and how her work is
a spiritual influence with you. Talk to me more about that, sure,
(17:55):
Tony Morrison. So I first encountered her work in college.
I'm trying to figure out a book I had read
by a black author before college. I'm currently trying to
revisit some memories and trying to figure out did I
even read Black Office before college? But I encountered her
work for the first time in college. Of course knew
who she was, but I had never actually read anything.
(18:17):
And that was around the time that I was first
really experiencing a Christian spaces for the first time, or
overtly Christian spaces. And this is the first time I
was going to church regularly on my own, and it
was a very wide evangelical space. I should say. And
(18:37):
to me, everything about college was just new, like people
in my family didn't go to college, and it was
just very different from the place I was coming from.
And so I kind of just looped everything that happened
to me into like this one big box of like
this is the unknown, this is new. So it was
(18:58):
very difficult for me to kind of distinguish what I
was learning in the classroom, you know, from the first time,
to separate that from what I was experiencing and learning
in church for the first time. I just couldn't compartmentalize
those things, like the compartment was college, um. And so
I found myself bringing black I studied English literature. In
(19:23):
the end, I found myself bringing black authors into the
pew with me, and I mean, thank god I had
them to help me interrogate some of the things I
was hearing or the kind of binaries that were being presented.
I just didn't find those spiritual binaries in black literature,
and I certainly didn't find them in more sins work.
(19:44):
To explain that, I think Black literature, especially Morrison, there's
something about how she was able to articulate the spiritual
that wasn't about certainty and it wasn't about clarity. It
was a out conveying, conveying the human experience and including
(20:04):
the spiritual in that human experience as opposed to this
is what this means and and ex equals this and
and I just love that and gravitated toward that kind
of mystery. So beloved, Yeah, it's the most terrifying Morrison
book I I would say, but it's closest to me
and closest to my spiritual formation. And beloved, there's this
(20:28):
kind of famous clearing. This Tony Morrison gives us the
space of the clearing where if you if you haven't
read it, that the matriarch baby sub she gathers her people.
She sits into the in the middle of the clearing
on this rock, and that the women and the men
and the children and the people are are kind of
(20:48):
waiting on the perimeter. And she says, you know, children,
let the children come and and and she says, let
your mother's hear you laugh, and and the kids break
out laughing. And then she said, men, you know, come,
let let your wives and children see you dance. And
then the you know, the men start dancing. And then
she calls the woman to the center and says, cry
(21:11):
for the living and the dead, just cry, and the
woman let loose, and and she describes the scene where,
you know, the the women start laughing in the end,
and the men sit down and start crying, and the
children start dancing, and they all get tangled up in
each other and then exhausted, they just kind of lay
there together. And then she gives her sermon, and Morrison
(21:34):
very specifically says she didn't she didn't tell them to
go and sin no more, which is like the typical
maybe white evangelical message, you know, go and send that's
the gospel, you know. She says she didn't tell them that.
She called them to awaken to grace. And then she
delivers the sermon that's all about the body. Like um
(21:55):
in this year place, we flesh, flesh that weeps, laughs,
flesh that dances on bare feet and grass love it.
And it's this message of loving the body, loving the flesh.
And anyways, all that to say that moment of the clearing,
it's intergenerational, you know, it's storied, it's emotional. It's not
a practice of the mind. It's emotional. It's embodied. And
(22:19):
whenever I think about what I want my spirituality to
be that's where I go. That's the kind of spirituality
I want to possess. So was Beloved your your gateway
into Tony Morrison's work? Was that the first book of
hers that you remember encountering? Yes, it was, that was
the first. Yeah, she didn't scare me away, but I mean, yeah,
(22:43):
that was that was the first. And it's hard, it's
it's hard to wait there. There's a real disorientation in
the beginning of a lot of her work, and a
lot of in a similar way kind of to like
Octavia Butler, there's this beginning that is just so disorienting
that you're trying to figure out what's up, what's down,
What's who's this, who's that? You know, you have the
(23:04):
matriarch being called baby babies. You know, there's so much
distorted and you could talk for ages about that, the
beauty and that, but there's something about the beginning of
Beloved that's just the slow connections. And she's not quick
to resolve, and I think people like things that resolve
right now, people want things to resolve and more thin,
(23:26):
it's really disinterested in that, which challenged me. Yeah. Still,
I mean I love the idea that you were carrying
some of this work into a church setting. I just
love that, because so many of Tony Morrison's books feel
so much like a spiritual text. I think that's such
(23:49):
a powerful thing to think about. I'm like, let's see
what Tony more some books I have downstairs. Next time
I'll go in the church, Johnny, let me let me
grab one of those. And they'll be like, somebody be
sitting next to me, like what is this? This is
not I'm turned to a page and we're not on
the same the same, and I'm like, you mind your
business and let me do what I'm doing here. I
(24:10):
think my initial gateway into Tony's work was Our Baby.
My mom had that book for some reason in her library,
and I remember taking it out and opening up the
first couple of pages, and I was young enough to
know that I was reading something amazing, and I did
not understand a word of you. I was like, this
(24:34):
is amazing. What is she talking about? I don't know?
And then I think I tried Beloved at twelve, and
it was all manner of confusions. It was all manner
of who's alive and who died and who died? But
(24:54):
it's still like all of them. I mean, now Cole,
I have which which is something that I really loved
about this here, Flesh. I loved this about your book.
It had this, It had this sense of feeling so grounded,
so rooted, rooted in people in place. I loved that,
(25:17):
And I loved that there was this way you sort
of left a lot of space out there for us
as the reader. You left a lot of space for
us to not come into the text of your book
and feel like you were there to give us answers.
You were there to sort of be this in some ways,
(25:38):
you sometimes felt like you were author but also observing,
and that you were sort of encouraging us as the reader.
We step back and sort of we look, we see,
we think about what we perceive, right, And then there
were times you're sort of inviting us into stories that
happened to you or happened to members of your family.
And then there were times that in that you were
(25:59):
sort of there at the center of the story because
it is happening to you, or as the stories being
told to you, you know. And I loved that sort
of breathing room that you left in there. And I
think that is something. As a writer, I always admired
about authors like Tony Morrison that it was not to
(26:20):
write a story to say, and here we derive an
answer that that was never the point that it was
to say, and here we are being, We're present in
a space. We'll laugh, will cry, we will wonder. The
page may end and we still don't know what happened
to so and so, And maybe you need to think
(26:41):
about that, reader, you know, Um, I really really loved that.
Do you have a favorite of Tony Morrison's work that
you love or is beloved that favorite for you? Belove
it is definitely that favorite. I mean, it's traumatizing trauma
(27:02):
on those pages, but there's so much beauty and I
just think it's so complicated. Maybe in a similar for
for similar reasons, is why I love Moonlight. Yeah, it's
like it's it's such a such a complicated story where
you know a person's motives are never completely clear. You know,
(27:23):
no one is completely good, no one's completely evil. I
think it's yeah, I mean you see that in a
lot of her work, but Belove it's definitely definitely my favorite.
I was thinking when you were talking about that clearing scene,
and I was like, what of Tony Morrison's work makes
me feel that feeling? I think for me, it's the
(27:45):
character of Pilot and Song of Solomon. I have actually
mentioned this too a couple of friends to say, as
I think about my black woman's spirituality at this season
of my life, I sort of imagine myself in certain
ways how Pilot appears in that story. For those of
you that haven't read it, I mean everything that Tony
(28:08):
Morrison writes, just go just go read it. But in
Song of Solomon, I, if I'm remembering right, I would
love to reread this again. Now. I also sort of
entered Tony Morrison's work really in college. I had those
initial encounters when I was younger, but when you're in college,
you're now getting to read these texts and sort of
(28:28):
pull certain things out of that and think about the themes.
And you have other historical texts that may be sitting
around that, or other fictional text sitting around that, which
is something that, um, I don't want to go back
to some of how college was, but that part I
did love, you know. I'm like, I wouldn't want to
write all the essays again. Maybe not that part, but
(28:49):
the part where the books got to be in conversation
with each other. Really loved that. And there was this
sense in Song of Solomon that Pilot and her daughters,
who are technically aunt and cousin to these other male
characters that we're hearing about, that they're sort of existing
on the periphery of what is considered acceptable in the
(29:14):
society of their town. They to me seemed like these
black women with harry legs and who will not shave
an under arm, and who will dress however, they will
dress and it doesn't matter or whatever is in fashion
in the department store down there. We're here growing cabbage
and growing collars outside of our house vibes, you know.
(29:36):
And I was like, the older I get, the more
and more I feel a little like that. I feel
a little like I's starting to like. But I guess
it a way cold spiritually, you know, sort of looking
at some of these characters in the same way that
you were talking about this character and Beloved. There's something
about Pilot being this black woman with no belly button
(29:57):
Tony Morrison, and we have this question and of remember,
does she birth herself? Is that why she has no
belly button? And we're not given any explanation as to why.
It is not really addressed pretty much at any point
later in the book. There's a lot of other things
(30:17):
going on, but I just gravitated to her and just thought, spiritually,
what does that mean? What does it mean? What are
the ways a black woman gives birth to herself? What
does that look like? Uh? That a writer could make
you contemplate those things. It's amazing what I was just
reading you writing about Beloved and this year Flesh and
(30:40):
even some of that terminology of this year Flesh sort
of coming back to us from Tony Morrison. I just thought,
I resonate with that, Cole, I resonate with how to
meet your book and what you were talking about their
and Beloved are in conversation. Did you feel that way too? Yes,
I mean I was hoping I was. It's a tall order.
It's hard to kind of approach her work because for
(31:03):
so many of us she's just hero. But I knew,
if I'm going to write a book that contains Christianity,
I need to really be faithful to the way black
literature spiritually formed me. You know, I wanted to be
faithful to my the entirety of my spiritual formation which
exists in and outside of a Christian tradition. And it
(31:26):
included black literature. It included you know, my family who
aren't overtly religious, and so I needed to pull in,
you know, things like storytelling and things like myth even
so that it felt true that, you know, my dad,
he's such a big part of the book. He wouldn't
say he's a Christian. So how could I write a
book that contains so many of his stories and these precious,
(31:49):
these sacred artifacts and have the book contained by Christianity alone.
It just didn't feel right. I needed to incorporate these
other things. And in that way I was able to
kind of approach people like Morrison and really figure out, Man,
what did this do to me? You know? How is
this a sacred text to me? And who are people
(32:11):
in my life who are going to be terrified to
hear that this is a sacred text to me? You know?
And do I care? Do I want them? Do I
want them in the writing room with me? You know?
So yeah, I brought up a lot of good questions.
Mm hmmm mmm, I love that I want to ask. Also,
I guess I have a question that sort of comes
with a comment or a reflection on something. I also
(32:35):
loved about the way you chose to approach spirituality and
spiritual practice in this book. I really loved that it
seemed like there was this space for the reader, like,
if you're here, reader, and Christian tradition is what you
ascribe to your welcome if you're here reader, and you
(32:55):
don't ascribe to that at all, You're welcome if you're
here reader, and used to ascribe to that, and now
you've got lots of questions and tensions here you're welcome
to And I think that's a wonderful gift in a
book that wants to bring sort of questions and beauty
(33:18):
and tensions of spirituality to the table, to be that
welcoming that in a text people would feel like they
can come to the page there wherever they are. Was
that something that as you were writing felt like contentional
on your part or did you feel as you were
bringing your family stories, your own stories affirmation that that
(33:41):
was just a present theme for you as well? It
was intentional because I've read books by authors who are
a Christian not kind of are trying very hard to
teach you what to think and what to believe. And
I think, you know, maybe Christianity didn't have the history
(34:02):
that it did that would feel less problematic, but because
it's been so perverted in and through white supremacy, Yeah,
I had to. I I really wanted to push myself
to to be honest about all of my uncertainties. The
thing about what how how whiteness moves in in in
spiritual spaces, specifically in Christianity, is you know, that supremacy
(34:25):
that it craves in terms of politics, in terms of
socio economic power. It also craves in terms of religion.
It doesn't just want to, you know, have a spirituality.
It's spirituality needs to be supreme, it needs to be
the best thing. It needs to be the right thing.
And so so much of our so much of christian
formation in certain spaces, is about convincing you that you
(34:48):
are right, this is right, and these other things aren't right.
And I think that's completely you know, a symptom of
white supremacy and mostly that and I just resist that.
I reject that. I don't want that to be my
spiritual formation. It's hard, that's hard, conditioning that that a
lot of us have endured that your your spiritual belief
(35:08):
system has to be above in order for it to be,
in order for it to matter, in order for it
to be meaningful. I've always been a skeptic. My you know,
the thing that my family says about me is will say,
Nicole was born a skeptic. You came out as a
skeptic um from the time I was a child. And
I've always been a very uncertain person, a very like
(35:28):
you know, maybe maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And
to be honest about that in writing this first book
was really important because you know, ultimately I'm gonna have
to answer to myself, my fifty year old self, my
six year old self. I want to be able to
look back and say I told the truth. You know,
I m I probably said some things that were wrong.
(35:50):
I probably I probably said things that I, you know,
won't believe anymore by the time I'm sixty. But did
I tell the truth? And that became the lens through
which I wrote, like, are you telling the truth about
you with the information that you have and the experiences
that you've had to this point. And as long as
I did that, I had that kind of fidelity to self.
(36:12):
I feel like I was able to write very compassionately
towards readers who really don't know what they think. You know,
we really don't know what they believe, but they're they've
been trained to think that they're supposed to know exact
all these things with certainty. Do you have a favorite
spiritual practice right now or in this season of your life? Yes,
(36:33):
I have complicated feelings about this spiritual practice that I've
criticized it. Actually it's silence. Um, yeah, I think there
are a lot of valid critiques that I share about
silence is spiritual practice, especially you know, for those of
us who have been silenced by the societies that were
being brought up in my whiteness. And so I have
(36:55):
a complicated relationship with silence because I I was not
very verbal child. I talked about that in the books.
Some I had something called selective mutism, which is, you know,
a childhood anxiety disorder essentially just makes it very difficult
to speak around strangers. So I've always had a very
(37:17):
tricky relationship with silence, like it always felt like something
I needed to overcome and conquer. But in this season,
it's been really healing for me to try to find
some good was there something. Was there something special in
those moments of silence that I shared with myself as
a little girl. You know, maybe there was something that
(37:38):
was all about insecurity and anxiety, but also was there
something else there, something I was listening to and myself that,
you know, a way that I became nearer to myself.
So anyways, I've been trying to practice a kind of
redemptive silence and it feels really empowering. M hmm. I
love that. I love adding the word redemptive to that,
or redemptive silence, the just sort of finding sometimes a
(38:02):
fresh way or a different way, and maybe a different
way than maybe what we were taught of how we
use silence or how we're supposed to embrace that or not,
you know, all the things. I love the idea that
even finding new or different ways to do that can
be redemptive. I want to read a quote from your book.
You wrote, joy, which once felt as frivolous as love
(38:24):
to me, has become essential virtue in my spirituality. I
am convinced that if we are to survive the weight
of justice and liberation, we must become people capable of
delight and people who have been delighted in. I love that.
What's bringing you joy right now? Well, reading usually brings
(38:48):
me joy, but specifically I'm reading two books. I'm reading
Pleasure Activism and I'm reading Black Joy by Tracy Lewis Giggets.
There's m in there. I think I'm reading Black Joy anyway.
It's a bright yellow book, red and black lettering, and
everyone should go out and buy it at a local bookstore.
(39:11):
And it's bringing I mean that book in particular. Both
of those books in different ways of bringing me joy,
because they're really giving me permission to experience joy in
the ways that feel right to me, as opposed to
mimicking the joy around me. And I think, just like
many emotions, although I think joy is something bigger than
an emotion, but I think, like many other emotions in
(39:33):
my life, I contend to mirror them and other people
as opposed to actually having them originate in me and
like emany out. Instead, it's like they come to me
and they kind of rest on my skin, but they
don't ever really get in. And I think that's what
joy has been for so long. And you know, both
of those books is just telling me it's okay, what
(39:54):
does this look like for you? And for me it
might not look like you know, my sister or who's
very very verbal and very charismatic and just so fun.
And for me, it looks like more peace. It looks
like you know, sitting and you know, staring at something
beautiful and trying to find some sense of peace and
(40:17):
trying to be honest about the things that I delight
in as opposed to hiding from them. Mm hmm. I
also want to ask you this question related to joy
as well. As people read this year Flesh, what do
you hope they understand about the connection between joy and liberation.
I hope that they would understand that the journey towards
(40:41):
liberation and deeper liberation, it doesn't need your Your liberation
isn't isn't bigger, It's not deeper, you know, the deeper
your trauma is, or something like that, which I think
we we never articulate that necessarily, but I think that
you know, those are the stories were given. You know
that the end ding, the ending is better because of
(41:02):
the depth of the pain. I used to think that, Um, Sadly,
I don't think that anymore. I think you're we will
not get there. We I don't think we'll get there.
And I'm not talking about liberation as linear. I mean
I won't get there on a day to day basis.
I won't. I can't approach it if I don't have
some kind of habits and systems set up in my
(41:24):
life that will keep me from despair. Because I think
liberation demands that we've become very honest about the pain
and about the terrors, you know, demands kind of an
unflinching awareness of all those things. I'm not if you're
really if you're really telling the truth, if you're really
paying attention to the pain, I find it very difficult
(41:45):
to believe that you can approach liberation without first becoming
succumb by despair. And I think, you know, joy keeps
us from that. And I think we're seeing that, you know,
this explosion in the past few years of literature, art
of content, if you want to call it that online,
that is kind of just pulling. You know that you
(42:06):
see something different that's pulling on black people. You know,
in the wake of the summer, for example, and what
was pulling at other people. You know, there was this
sinister kind of hunger for pain awakened in some people.
But then I saw and like my black friends, there
was this appetite for joy and people didn't understand it.
(42:29):
They didn't know what to do with the memes and
the videos and the like, how could you do this now?
You know? And it's like you don't know. This is
how we this is how we've survived, and we have
we have inherited this, We haven't inherited this very rich
system of joy as a means not for just survival
but also thriving, you know, and and flourishing. So anyways,
(42:52):
that was a rant. That was a bit of a rant.
But unless someone was like demeaned joy for so long,
I feel like I'm speaking to myself, you know. Yeah, yeah,
I love a good rankle. So you know, anytime you
have a rant, you know, I'm always I'm always here
for that. I keep a little rant in my pocket
just because you never know what you need. One need
(43:15):
a little rant sometimes, that's all Cole, How can the
people stay connected to you and your New York Times
bestselling book and your work? Tell me where the people
should go? This here flash. It's available anywhere books are sold,
but preferably um a local block owned bookstore. You could
(43:38):
buy it there. That just yeah, does extra work really,
And then you can find me at cool Arthur Riley
dot com and there will lead you to any social
media that you have that you want to follow. But
you can also sign up for my newsletter where I'll
share you know, if I have articles published places, so
go to their people, go to there and do those things. Cole,
(44:02):
what an honor to get to speak with you today.
It's been so great, my honor. Like, I'm so excited.
I'm so excited. So thank you for being here with
us in the her living room. I cannot handle the
spice of those flaming hot doritos, but I would be
with you while you had some while we're here in
(44:24):
the lib Yes, I would do that. I would be
here with you. So thank you so much for joining me.
Her with Amina Brown is produced by Matt Owen for
(44:46):
Slogarfiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast
Network and partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening
and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
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