August 2, 2022 • 46 mins
I love gathering with y’all each week in our HER Living Room and this week we are gathering around the table for a conversation on food and Arab culture with award-winning Palestinian author and writer Reem Kassis. I only wish we could have eaten the food Reem features in her latest book, The Arabesque Table! Listen in as Reem talks with me about the finding home and the power of preserving and discovering culture through food. Make sure you get The Arabesque Table at your favorite bookseller and follow Reem on Instagram @reem.kassis. Please enjoy this episode from the HER Archives.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome y'all back to another episode of Her with Amina Brown.
And those of you that have been listening to the
podcast for a while, you know that I always talk
about how when we are gathered here listening to the podcast,
we are in our her living room, but in my house,
my living room is actually an open room that opens
(00:22):
into the kitchen. And with today's guest, I feel like
we are we are in our her living room and
we are also adjacent to the kitchen. So I'm so
excited to have all of the conversation. Palestinian author and
(00:48):
writer whose work has won awards from James Beard in
PR and the Guild of Food Writers, I want you
to welcome author of The Palestinian Table and her latest book,
The Arabesque Table, Realm Cassis. Thank you Amina. Oh my gosh. Ream.
First of all, let me tell y'all that are listening
(01:09):
here that Realm and I have a mutual friend who
has regaled me with your amazing nous for a long time.
Ream actually like our friend Lyrics. Shout out to Lyric.
She is a fantastic culture and food journalist, photographer, writer,
She's amazing and she and I also just love to
(01:31):
talk food. She and I love to eat food. It's
like a bonding in our friendship that we're just always
discussing what we're eating. And so she had told me
about you and your work a while ago, and then
when she reached out, like, hey, so Ream's book is
coming out, And as soon you started talking, I was like, yes,
whatever you're about to say, um, yes, I want to interview. Yes,
(01:52):
she knows the most amazing people. And she told me
about you as well. She's been talking about you for
a while and she's like, I have this friend, do
you want to be on her podcast? I was like absolutely,
I mean I don't even need to know anything else.
If you recommend her, it's so I guess we were
both on the same page. They're completely meant to be.
And I'm just y'all. First of all, I have to
tell you, you you know, podcasting is it's a limited situation
(02:15):
because you know, there's no way for REALM and I
to talk and show you how beautiful Realms books are.
I mean gorgeous, okay, Like it is a wonderful combination
of this writing and the recipes are there and the
images are just gorgeous. So even having looked at the images.
(02:36):
I'm like, I really wish that it was not a pandemic,
that I could be like in the kitchen with you. Really.
I also want to just speak out here into the
listeners that I know there are executives who work in
television listening to this podcast, and you need to go
ahead and make a TV show of Realm Cassie. So
I'm just talking out here and I need you to
do it, and mainly selfishly so that I can be
(02:58):
a guest so I can finally cook for you in person. Okay,
I'm gonna be there messing up everything, eating all of it.
I want to talk about some of the themes in
your work, and I just really identified with a lot
of those themes, and I want to talk also about
(03:19):
your latest book because I want people to get a
chance to hear a bit about the inspiration behind it.
I really identify with the fact that you wrote your
first book and then you were like that might be it. Yeah,
pretty much. You were like, I don't know if this
is coming back. So I want to start with that.
Can you talk about what was your journey into book writing?
(03:43):
Did you see yourself ever getting into that where you
you know, I'm using the air quotes you're dragged kicking
and screaming. Were there are other people in your life
that were like ream We would love for you to
write more, share these stories more. I mean, how did
that become a part of the food journey? The writing?
So it's interesting because for those who don't know me,
my background was not in writing orange food at all.
(04:06):
I did grow up in a literary family, if you will.
So my grandfather was a children's author and he was
very well recognized back home. So those always felt like
big shoes to fill, you know. I loved reading, I
loved writing, but it was not something I thought I
would pursue professionally. And then I went to undergrad in
the US, I got my m b A. I worked
in consulting, and it wasn't until my first daughter was
(04:28):
born and I was on maternity leaf for a year
because London is amazing like that, and that's where we
were living at the time that I started working on
this book. And it actually didn't start out as a book.
It started out as my desire to put together my
family's recipes and stories in a medium that she could
have with her wherever she went in the world. And
(04:51):
I think when I saw them all come together, I realized, Okay,
these are my family's recipes, their stories, but taken together
as a whole, they could be the story of any
Palestinian family. And it's a story that is most often
not heard and very different to the one we're used to,
and I felt a sense of responsibility to share that
with the world. And that's how that first book came
(05:14):
to be in a very simplistic way. Obviously the journey
was a lot messier than it sounds in hindsight. But
that's why I always said I thought it would be
my first and last book, because it wasn't something that
I jumped into with the idea that I'm going to
turn this into a career. And then once the book
came out, obviously I did interviews and podcasts and people
would ask questions like what is the difference between Palestinian
(05:36):
cuisine and Lebanese or Syrian? And I started digging into
this whole idea of food history, and I was shocked
at what I realized, which is that the lens through
which we look at cuisine is very distorted because it
only looks back in the range of one hundred to
two hundred years, but cuisine is so much older than that.
The very idea of national cuisine is a relatively recent construct.
(06:00):
So with this new book, I wanted to grasp in
a way or showcase what a modern Arab table looks like.
What do we eat at home today as Palestinians who
live abroad, who have access to certain ingredients, but not
others who have friends from one part of the world
and another. And at the same time, I realized, if
I want to show that with integrity, I have to
(06:22):
trace the history of these dishes. And that's kind of
where the idea for this book came from and how
it evolved into the one that you see today. M
you voiced just now something that really meant a lot
to me in your work, that you didn't want your
writing to be disconnected from history, And I just think
(06:43):
that's so powerful. And I mean, also, I am a
person that's very inspired by old things. But I think
a part of it is because to me it feels
hard to make or right or capture if I'm not
also where or bringing into the space. This is not
(07:03):
a new thing we're doing, even if we are here
now where there are these types of appliances or these
ways our homes may be set up. Now we are
doing a thing that has historically been done as well,
and I love that connection. I mean cuisine in general.
I mean it's also it runs so deep, and if
(07:24):
you look at its past, it is very cross cultural.
It is very integrated, right. You know, you learn from
other people, your circumstances, occupations, wars, empires, They influence it.
So knowing your history and cherishing it is not mutually
exclusive with evolving and changing. And I guess that was
the point I was trying to get across, because you
(07:44):
see so many people who will cook a certain dish
and either attribute it to one cuisine or completely forget
to attribute it to a certain cuisine, as if recognizing
the history detracts from the beauty of what we have today.
And I think it's the opposite. Seeing how much something
has changed and understanding it's rich past makes us appreciate
it all the more, even if that past is not
(08:06):
always a pleasant one, which in many cases it's not
right right. I think the other thing that I want
to talk to you about also in the idea of
how especially when we're talking about food and we can't
talk about culture without talking about food, and then we
can't talk about food without talking about culture. I mean,
they're just so like interconnected that way, but when we're
(08:28):
talking about food and culture sort of inter linked together,
I think in particular. And I don't know if I
don't know if this is an American thing, a West thing,
a colonization thing. I just don't know, But I'm gonna
bring it up here because I'm interested to hear your
thoughts about this, even for me, Like I I love
to cook, but I'm like a home cook. I love
(08:49):
to say, like I might make ugly food, but it's
still tastes amazing. I'm just you know, I don't really plate.
I don't either. I'm just like, here, here is everything.
It's delicious. I don't know what it looks like, but
it's here exactly. And as I've grown as a home
cook and sometimes have desire to cook things from other
(09:10):
countries or other cultures, I've noticed how it can sometimes
take a little more digging to get to the writers
and chefs that are actually native to that culture or
native to that country, where you're actually getting to hear
from them how we make this, What is the history
(09:33):
of this that there are other sites and we'll name
their names here, but other sites that exist there that
you're like, oh, I'm going to find this particular dish,
and then you get there and you know it's somebody
wherever wherever they live in the middle of whatever, and
they're like, here's how I make this. And then when
you actually read that from a writer that's writing about
(09:56):
what they ate of this in their family of origin home,
you know, or growing up in their mother, aunt's, grandmother's kitchen.
And I think that is also really integral to your
work and why I am so glad your voice exists
because we want to hear about this from you. We
(10:17):
don't want to hear about it from someone who this
is not home, this is not family to them. Why
do you think that's important for writers like yourself to
share these stories from your own upbringing, your own cultural experience.
I think it's a couple of things. I mean, you know,
for starters, you can't divorce food from culture because so
(10:39):
much of it is dependent on the context. So many
of the dishes that I will talk about, it's not
just as some of the ingredients and the way the
dish taster looks like it's also what it signifies, What
occasions is it eating on, what history does it tell?
How did it change over time? You know, there are
dishes now which I talk about in the book, made
with rice, but traditionally my on father tells me, you know,
(11:01):
they were so poor that rice was something reserved for
the wealthy. They only ate bulgar grains. And someone coming
from outside the culture trying to tell you a certain
story about a dish, he might cover or she might
cover just the way that dish is cooked today and
forget all that history that brought it to the point
that we're seeing. But also other than that, I mean,
(11:23):
what I noticed sometimes is you look at a certain
dish and you can bring ten Palestinians, and each of
us will tell you, oh, no, no, no, this is
the way it's supposed to be made, and this is
the way my mother makes it, and they're all right,
there's nothing wrong with them, right, you know. Every I
always say this, especially about lube, which is considered one
of the national dishes of Palestine. There are probably as
(11:44):
many versions of it as there are families in the country,
which is totally okay in my mind. And then I
struggle sometimes I think, well, what about if someone wants
to convey that dish to the Western world and that
person is not Palestinian? Is that wronger? Is that right?
And I don't have you know, I wish the answer
was clear cut, black and white. It's wrong, it's right.
(12:05):
I think if you're someone who has immersed yourself in
that culture, if you are a non Palestinian who has
lived in the country it, lived amongst its people, understood
that culture, and you're doing it justice. I don't have
a problem with that. You know, some people disagree with me,
and they will say, no, you have absolutely no right.
But then you start drawing a line where there's no
creativity and there's no interaction in cuisine was not meant
(12:27):
to be that way. It never was. The issue I
have is when someone gives you a dish that does
not a recognize the origin, is not even remotely close
to what the people in the country eat. And then
once you bring in the issue of profit, who's benefiting
from it? And I'm not just talking financially, I'm talking,
you know, publicity wise, who's getting the recognition for it?
(12:50):
If you're getting it at the expense of the people
who have provided you with this, then we start to
have an issue. Yeah, that's such a great point. And
even for people that might to use the example you
gave there, for people who might be non Palestinian that
may want to share this such and such a recipe.
(13:11):
It's like if you were immersed in the culture, if
you have been immersed in a culture that isn't your own,
then the hope would be that you even walk into
whatever that page or writing space is with this sense
of honor which you know, to what you were talking
about in your own writing process, that is still connected
to history, that is still connected to the culture in
(13:31):
which the food is rooted, which I think is so
powerful and so beautiful. I also want to talk about
home because that is this theme that comes up a
lot in your work, and it's also a topic that
fascinates me because I was a kid that moved around
a lot growing up and then I, you know, before
(13:53):
the pandemic anyway, I was traveling mostly became a performing
artist that traveled a lot. So my my home is
very I mean sometimes I look at it and I
think like it's fractured on some levels, because you know,
it wasn't like I grew up in this home from
being born until I got out of high school or something,
(14:13):
and then went into my adulthood and made that place home.
It was sort of like all these different places became
home to me. But I'm always interested in how we
talk about home because there are so many different ways
to define that that sometimes that is a very specific place.
Like I was actually talking with my sister the other
day about how home is very specifically from me my
(14:34):
mother's house, and it's like wherever my mother's house is,
if it's down the street, if it's you know, whatever,
she is in her house. When I step across the threshold,
I am at home. When you think of home, what
are could be one place for you? Could be specific places,
but what are the specific like concrete places. You think, Oh,
(14:58):
that feels like home to me. Oh, it's interesting you
say it's where your mom is, because for me, it's
a combination of location and as well as people. You know,
my mother used to always say for me, home is
where my kids are. My grandmother used to say the
same thing. She would say holidays or when my kids
are together. So there's a sense of home is where
the people that you love and care most for all
(15:20):
with that said, I notice, you know, I live outside
Philadelphia with my husband and two daughters. Do I care
about more than anything in the world. But I constantly
feel uprooted. I don't feel home, and I think in
large part, and I talked to my husband about this
all the time. I say, like, you know, what do
I have? Where is the where are the roots? Where
is the family the history that ties me to this place,
(15:42):
and it's not here. And if I go back to,
you know, my paternal or maternal grandparents villages. I grew
up in Jerusalem, so I didn't grow up in those villages,
but I go there. My grandmother, my great grandmother, her mother.
Everyone is rooted to that place. Everyone knows everyone. You
are born and you die in that place. And I
used to look at that like, oh my god, I
want to get out. I want to see the world,
(16:04):
like this is so claustrophobic. And now that I've left
and I've seen everything, I realize how much value there
is in being in a place that can be traced
so far back, that gives you a sense of place
and meaning. So for me, the places that really mean
home are the people. It's obviously my parents, my brother,
and my husband, my kids. But when I'm back home
(16:25):
in Jerusalem in particular, it's where I grew up, so
in the old city that's associated with so many pleasant
memories for me that it screams home when I go there.
But then also the villages that my grandparents are from,
they're very different, you know, it's very rural, it's very communal.
It's changed over the years. But when I'm there, I
feel a sense of belonging that I don't always feel
(16:46):
in other places. But then the flip side of that is,
having lived so long outside, I also feel like an
outsider when I go home, and I'm constantly straddling this divide,
and it's not an easy place to live in. You know.
People look from the outside and thing, oh, it's glamorous.
You live in one place, you traveled to another, but
it's actually it's almost a burden on sundays. Yeah, I
(17:09):
on a level, I'll say I get that, not not
as much having the international elements of that, but having
sort of grown up visiting where my parents both grew
up in North Carolina, that that was home for them,
but because my grandmother was there, it felt like home
to me. But we were of my of my mom's siblings.
(17:32):
I think we moved around the most, my mom and
my sister and I, so we were sort of like
always rotating around that and there were times where we
would come home and sort of be with our you know,
are what would I guess be like second cousins by
time you get to like your second and third cousins.
We had enough family North Carolina that that's what it
was like there and feeling like, oh, like my voice
(17:54):
sounds very different right right, like from their voices, and like, um,
remember the town that my grandmother was from, and my
parents both are from that same place, you know, where
they would go for fun to like this particular skating rink,
you know, And I was living in bigger cities with
my mom by that time, where it's kind of like, oh,
(18:15):
that's all you have is this little this little skating rink. Oh,
But to my cousins, it's like that skating rinks everything, right,
because that's where everybody of a certain age is going
to have fun on a weekend. And those different aspects
are are so interesting to how we find home, you know.
Hearing you talk about that, just this like duality there
(18:36):
of like there is something about the air there and
the soil there that feels home to me. But there
is this element of like, but this is not where
I grew up or I really went to school. Maybe
one year I went to school. They're living with my grandmother,
but otherwise, you know, I want to also ask, as
we're talking about home, I want to talk about the kitchen.
(18:57):
And I'm riveted by how there is this generation of
womanhood in your writing room. That it is you as
a mother to your daughters the things that you want
them to know, but it is you remembering yourself as
a young girl in these kitchen moments with your mother
(19:20):
and your grandmother's and so on. Can you talk about
what's the scene like in the kitchen with the other
women in your family? Is the kitchen obviously, it's the
place where, like, is the food getting prepared, is the
food getting cooked? It is? Are other womanhood lessons happening
there in the kitchen? And what were some of those
(19:43):
that you remember or that you experience now even with
your own children. So the experience is very different because
I like to have my girls in the kitchen and
I like teaching them and talking to them. For my
mother's generation and my grandmother's generation, it was get out
of the kitchen, really, because they looked at me. You know,
my grandmother was not that way with my mother, but
(20:04):
my mother was that way with me because she looked
at my generation as the one that was going to
get out of the kitchen and was going to do something.
So if I tried to cook, it was leap go study.
This is not your thing, you know. And I mentioned
that I was thinking to write a cookbook or do
something with food. My mother's response was who goes and
gets an mba to end up in the kitchen. Of
course she backtracksic that she never said that, or if
(20:25):
she said it, she didn't mean it that way. And
you know, it's it's the point we talked about all
the time, and I mentioned this in the book. It
wasn't just her, it was everyone in society back then,
someone telling my father why sent her to the US
for university? She's going to end up in the kitchen anyway.
So there was that element of it. But as most
kids will tell you, whatever you're not supposed to do,
(20:46):
you want to do. And so I wanted to be
in the kitchen. I wanted to see what they were cooking.
It's also where you heard all the gossip, right because
that's where the women are, So that's where you learn
about things you're not necessarily supposed to learn that at
certain ages. I remember my grandmother had this um. I
guess you would call it a pantry these days, but
it was a room above her fridge. You have to
climb on a ladder to get to it, and my
(21:08):
cousins and I would hide in there, and of course
you'd listen in onto everything that the women were saying.
And other times, you know, we'd run in and added
the kitchen. We tried to help out, but the women
would show us and whatnot. But once you get older,
they start relying on you a bit more and you
start to learn some of the tips and tricks. Although
for me most of the learning was visual and auditory.
(21:28):
I wasn't actually helping out in the kitchen. I think
the first time I cooked, I was an undergrad and
I wanted to make my little bit in my dorm kitchen.
I don't even know how I pulled it off, but
it was long before zoom and FaceTime, and my mother
goes at one point, it's cheaper for me to get
a ticket and come cook it for you than to
pay your long distance phone stop calling to ask how
to make it so, but I learned along the way.
(21:52):
I mean, it's something that there's this concept in Arabic
called nufus, which it means it's similar to breath or air,
but in the context of cooking. It talks about something
that a cook will impart into the food part of
their spirit, their love, their generosity, and I feel if
someone has that, their food will turn out very good,
(22:14):
even if you don't have that much experience, and obviously
you hone it through time and through cooking. M m
m hmm. I love that. I love that there was
that little nook to hide in it now that I
think about it, because it was like when you're a
little girl and the women and the family are gathering.
I mean, it just feels like that's a place to be,
Like they're going to be in there talking about all
(22:34):
sorts of stuff that yes everything, you know, who did
one and who in the village and what the leaders
gossip is. And it was a simple time but fascinating
them the less. Okay, Reem, you shared a little bit
(22:56):
about this before, but can you talk about what experience
was like for you making the career shift that led
to where you are now as an author. I just
found that part of your story. I found it so fascinating.
But I also think, you know, there are a lot
of people listening that are sort of in this kind
of in between place before that shift happens. So can
(23:21):
you talk about what was what was the shift where?
I feel like in your story there's sort of this
like before time, before this that was like really different.
And then how did you find yourself sort of finding
in a way it seemed from your story and you
can tell me if I'm describing this accurately, but it
seems like you were finding your way back as you
(23:43):
were finding your way forward. So what was that change like?
Were you afraid when you felt the change coming? Absolutely,
I'm still afraid, if we're being honest. And that's one
thing I want to preface my answer with which people
will look at someone who has transitioned and is quote
unquote on the other side or has accomplished something, and
they'll think, Oh, it looks easy or oh it looks great,
(24:05):
but it's this struggle and it still is for a
lot of reasons which I'll get into But like I
told you, I left Jerusalem wanting to prove to anyone
who thought otherwise that a woman's place was not in
the kitchen, that she could achieve professional success and other domains,
that you could be in a males world and do well.
(24:25):
And I was on that track. I mean, I did
my undergrad at PEN, I did my NBA. It warn't
straight out of undergrad, which is very uncommon. I worked
at McKinsey, so I picked every single box. And then
I think it hit me at some point soon after
I started working and consulting that here I am ticking
all these boxes, but there's somebody else's boxes, not mine.
This isn't what makes me happy. And you know, I
(24:48):
was lucky enough for I was able to leave and
transition to something else. But it was very scary when
I first started out because there was no, uh guarantee
that it was going to work out. I was also
by the time that I decided to make this transition,
I was married and the issue of financially supporting myself
on my own wasn't a big thing. And people don't
(25:09):
talk about this, but taking a risk like this, it
requires either a willingness to really tie in, you know,
bootstrap your life or you're gonna have to find a
way to make ends meet if you're not fighting, you know,
if you're financially dependent or not financially independent. Um, So
that was one part of it, which is something that
(25:30):
needs to be talked about. You know, how do you
allow someone who wants to pursue the creative arts to
be able to make a living? And I get really
anger when I think about this that why is it
that someone who's producing let's just call it widgets or
a tech app or whatnot, is able to go out
there and raise insane amounts of money. But someone who's
producing art, which is what I would argue makes life
(25:52):
worth living. Maybe it doesn't move the economy or boost it,
but it's well gives their life meaning and purpose. Why
is that not valued in the same monetary terms? And
when I said to you, it's still difficult for me today.
This is one of the issues where you know, I
look at people I went to school with who remained
in those careers, who've made partner at those firms, which
I could have already been at that point had I stayed.
(26:15):
And obviously, as a food writer, you're not in that
same bracket when it comes to, you know, financially, and
I think I judge myself based on those things because
I was conditioned to do that. For five years. I
was in an environment that equated success with money, and
it's hard to transition to a point where you equate
success with something else, with contribution. And that's what I think,
(26:37):
you know. I think what's helped me is thinking in
fifty years or in a hundred years, when I'm not here,
will there still be a part of me that's remember
that's recognized. And I think when you contribute something to
society in any kind of art, whether it's books, performance,
are painting and music, those are things that can last forever.
(27:00):
You know, if you're not that, the other work is
not important. But there I felt there were a hundred
people who could do the job I was doing professionally,
but not that many people who could be the same
mother to my kids and also produce for my people
and my community. The thing that I signed my hands up.
Sorry that was heavy, and it didn't feel heavy to
(27:20):
me read, but it feels it feels powerful, and it
feels very honest. Because I think when we're having conversations
about you know, insert buzzwords here, about dreams, about passions,
about calling, about what that looks like in our vocations.
It has been really important to me, and particularly on
this podcast, because women of color are here sharing their
(27:42):
own stories and experiences and I'm sharing some of mine too,
that we have some honest talks about what that actually
looks like. You know, I worked in corporate for a
while doing communications for a big fortune five hundred and
I was so excited, like for the first time to
be getting paid eight you know at that time what
felt like paid so well to be writing right, and
(28:04):
then six months in was like, wow, I hate this,
I hate this, and then quitting and going broke. I
did an episode sort of walking through people like you know,
people see you, you know, at the book signing right
or you know, they see your name on whatever the
articles and different awards are. They see your name there
(28:26):
and they're like, oh goodness, and You're like, well, behind
the scenes, what that really means. It's what it looks like.
Some struggles were had. Even the day before said award
was received. I was actually exactly doing these things. So
I think it's I think and hope that it's helpful
for people to hear. It's not to say, don't pursue
(28:49):
this thing that you feel passionate about that may not
have this like equation to how it's going to be,
you know, air quote how other people might define success.
It's not to say don't pursue those things or or
look to make these shifts. It's to say, there's rough
and tumble along the journey. Right, there's rough and tumble
(29:10):
in every path you decide to take. And I think
it's recognizing that there is not a single career path
in this world that you will take that will be
smooth sailing the whole way through. You know, Yeah, Okay,
I have my name on books and I go to
book signings and whatnot. But you know what I do
at home, My wash additions and I you know, I
have to all day long. That's what I do. You know,
(29:32):
I'm cleaning up my stove when I forget a pot,
and it boy like, this is what day to day
life looks like. It's not the glamorous book signings. And
then when you're in corporate America or the corporate world
anywhere you're I was working sixteen hour days. I remember,
like you were saying thinking, oh my god, I'm getting
paid so well, I can afford anything I want to
buy now. But suddenly all those things I thought I
wanted to buy, in the designer clothes and handbags and shoes,
(29:54):
I had no desire to even wear them. I just
my life felt so me meaningless at that point that
that stuff could not fill whatever gap I was feeling.
And if there's one thing I've noticed is it's when
you start doing something that thinks of someone else more
than you are, something that gives back, you find a
sense of meaning much more than when you're pursuing things
(30:16):
that are purely hedonistic just for your own satisfact mm hmm.
I love you brought up the word meaning. I think
that's important. You know, when we're thinking about what do
we want to do, you know, in in the world,
in our communities, I think it is about is it
is it meaningful? You know? And not? And of course
I get it. Not everything we do is going to
(30:37):
be meaningful. Um, even in my you know, current like
writer event life. I mean, I'm sure for all of
us that are in sort of creative space, I mean,
there are all sorts of like gigs and different things
that like you know, you take something so they can
pay the bills. You do that. But I think it's
good for us to think about what are the things
in my life, whether it's my vocation or not, that
I want to do because it's meaningful, because it means
(30:59):
something me, or because I think it would mean something
to my people or to my community. You know, I
think that's so important. Let's talk about the Arabesque Table. Okay,
what was the writing process like for the Arabesque Table?
And I'm just going to tell you I've never I've
never written a cookbook or anything with recipes in it,
(31:21):
so I don't know that part. But I have written
two books and it's a wild time for me. It's like,
I just I feel like I start out eating a
lot of carbohydrates because I'm just like, oh, why did
I do this to my Like there's a lot of stress.
There's a lot of beautiful ideas I had when I
(31:42):
was sketching out the book, and then I get to
actually writing it and it doesn't sound like that at all.
So much better in your head than when you put
it on paper, I know. Yeah, So talk to me,
what was your what was your writing process like after
eve envisioned the Arabsque Table. What was it like when
(32:02):
you actually had to sit down and do the writing.
So here's the funny thing. The arabsk Table was not
the book I initially envisioned, and I'm so glad it wasn't.
Um a lot of the things I'm telling you about
the history and how much of it I integrated in
the book, and also the idea of positioning it as
Arab versus Middle Eastern that came throughout the writing process.
(32:22):
So in a way, you know, not knowing what you're
doing sometimes is a blessing. Okay, Okay, that's that's encouraging everyone.
Remember sometimes not knowing what you're doing can be a blessing.
I'm gonna take that home with me. Okay, yes, at
least I tell myself that. But the day to day process, Look,
it was a little bit harder than the first one
for a couple of reasons. One was the first book
(32:45):
was taking recipes I'd grown up with and I knew
and just testing them, making sure they worked, and getting
exact ingredients for them. Here, it was developing a lot
of recipes, guessing what might or might not work, and
sometimes having to test it multiple times, all while cooking
with kids who are four and six. You know, with
the first book, they were a newborn and two years old.
(33:05):
They ate whatever I told them to eat, or they
had milk, and they were fine, whereas now it was
constant complaint and on top of recipe testing, you're cooking
things that the kids will eat. But that was most
of my day, and then my nights were transcribing all
those recipes and then the actual meat. I kept to
the very end, so that's when all the chapter intros
the introduction, that's when it all came together. And then um,
(33:29):
the introduction to the book did not happen until I
was supposed to go home to Jerusalem in March for
my photo shoot and two days before they issued a
blanket quarantine, had to cancel our flights. Everything was we
didn't even know if the book could come out when
it was scheduled too, And I felt so much during
that time, anger, frustration, just and I was able to
write the introduction through those feelings, and it's not the
(33:52):
introduction I would have imagined at all, but somehow it
came out something so much better than I could have envisioned.
So another hopeful a useful thing is sometimes just accept
those feelings, live through them. It's something beautiful can come
out of it on the other side, if you will.
But the writing mostly happened yet towards the tail end
(34:12):
of it, and a lot of the writing happened when
I was back home in Drewsale. So it's interesting the
recipes are tested abroad in the US, but then the
more narrative part was written back home. And being able
to see it from both angles or both sides, I
guess made the book what it was. It's modern, it's contemporary,
it's cross cultural, but it's also going far back in history.
(34:36):
Would you say location matters to your writing process? Did it?
Did it do something different to you being home in
Jerusalem writing and being just being there the air, you know,
the feeling of being there and then being here in
the U S writing. Does that add a different something
to your writing process? I think so. I mean, it's
(34:56):
hard to sign typically explain how the writing process works, right,
There's so many elements. It's like cooking. Why is it
that if I cook a dish when I'm angry, taste
one way, and if I'm happy, taste another way. And
if I'm doing it in this kitchen, it's like this
in another kitchen. It's like that. And I think writing
is similar. It's not that being there changes the way
I write, but the thoughts I have, the emotions I
(35:18):
experienced are different, and that comes through in the writing.
And yes, smelling the air probably reminds me of certain
memories when I was young that might not have been
triggered in my mind had I been writing it in
you know, my apartment. And in that sense, yes, absolutely does.
I was reading through a couple of the recipes in
(35:39):
this book, and you know, there's all this like funny
talk on the internet right now about when you go
to like a blog to read a recipe, right you're
just like scroll, scroll, scroll, you know, to read. I
just want to get to the recipe. But in reading
your book, both are I mean, in many blogs they're
also equally important, okay, But in your book, uh, they
(36:02):
are equally important. I mean you had one of the
recipes that I was reading through was for a certain
type of salad, and in your intro you were writing about,
you know, where where does the idea for salad come from?
What are the actual roots of that? In in ancient
food and you know, you were giving us that context,
(36:23):
and then you were like, here's why I'm doing what
I'm doing with this recipe now, you know, for these
sort of modern context Can you talk about you've told
us already how it's important to connect history, you know,
to like what you're writing. Could you talk about the
process of these recipes and the stories and history that's
going along there. What was that like and what do
(36:45):
you hope readers gain from getting to have those layers
in this book. So I think the book has about
a hundred and thirty or recipes in it. I started
out with over two hundred, so so the process involved
a lot of elimination and people always ask how did
you figure out which recipes you were going to keep in?
(37:07):
And I think the head notes you alluded to, we're
part of the reasons certain recipes state and certain recipes went.
It's you have two hundred and fifty pages. I mean,
there's a limit to how much history you can convey.
So I guess what I picked and chose were the
stories that charted that journey from past to present. So,
(37:29):
you know, rather than having five recipes whose head notes
talk about the origins of salad, I will pick one
which explains how it's from Roman times and salad is
the Latin word for salt, and that's how vegetables are seasoned,
and so on and so forth. I I think a
lot of it was trying to figure out how do
I tell this story, which snippets of information can showcases
specific points I wanted to get across, and those points
(37:50):
were a lot of the origins that we think are
like that, certain foods we think belong to are actually
completely inaccurate. You know, things like tomatoes. People think Italian food,
they think pasta with tomato sauce, or even Arabic cuisine
they think tomato stews. Tomatoes didn't make their way to
our part of the world till the nineteenth century. Wow,
(38:11):
And they are a result of the Colombian exchange or
inquisition or you know, into the America's Uh. Same with
other ingredients. You know, chilis, they are not native to
India or to Thailand. Coco is not native to Switzerland
or Belgium. And it's fascinating to see the history of
ingredients and crops. And that's why the book is broken
up by ingredients, because those are the ones that really
(38:32):
show you the shift in the history of cuisine. Why
call the book the Arabesque Table. I want to ask
on both words here, on Arabesque and table, why are
both of these words important to the journey of this book.
So I think Arabsque is the most important word in
(38:55):
that title. The table was similar to the first book.
It was this idea that this is where you serve
a meal. Everyone's welcome at the table. It was the
same publisher, so it was a nice way to maintain
the consistency. But Arabsque was very, very important, and I
felt hard to get that title on the book because
I wanted it to come across that this was not
just another quote unquote Middle Eastern cookbook. And I also
(39:18):
had an issue with the term Middle East because Middle
East is a European, a Western imperialistic view of our
part of the world in relation to the easternmost colony
of the British Empire, which was India. So India to
the far East, Europe is Europe, and we're in the
middle between the two. So it became the Middle East.
But it doesn't mean anything, And a lot of terms
(39:38):
in the social sciences don't mean something concrete, but people
use them and in the culinary world, people use Middle
East because it's essentially evocative, and it, you know, alludes
to certain things in certain dishes in your mind. But accurately,
what combines and unites the food of our region is
there a culturation under Arab culture and Islamic rule. So
I very much wanted the book to be air cuisine,
(40:02):
and I wanted that to come in the title. With
that said, it would to call it the Arab Table
would also not be accurate. And here I am preaching about,
you know, telling the truth and acknowledging the history. A
lot of the recipes in this book are the result
of cross cultural interaction. They take inspiration from other cultures,
from travels, they're a modern way of eating. An Arabesque
(40:26):
alludes to the fact that it's Arab, but it's not
a hundred percent Arab. And then there's one other reason,
which I don't talk about in the book because again
limited wordspace. But Arabesque is a dance move in ballet
where you have one ft on the ground with a
hand reaching forward and your other leg up in the air.
And I felt to me this was kind of a
symbol of how you're rooted and you're grounded in history,
(40:48):
but you're still reaching towards the future, trying to you know,
move forward. But it doesn't have to be either, or
you can do both at the same time. Oh that
dance imagery at the end right there, I mean, the
whole thing that you shared there. I hope everyone listening
(41:08):
is really hearing realm and learning on this because when
we are here, for those of you that are listening,
that are that are in the West, you're in the
States or in other parts of the West, there is
so much of how we are being told to view
other cultures, other nations, other parts of the world that
(41:29):
are not actually accurate to what it means to be there,
to be from there. And so I love that correction
of being able to say, let's not say Middle Eastern,
let's say Arabesque. I also just love how the e
s q u E. I mean, you know, it sounds
so sophisticated. If you are it does a thing very
(41:52):
like I don't know how to it sounds like the
banquets that they used to have in the past, and
they really were very elaborate. I love that read what
would you say, people who are listening, they are they
are needing to get this book. Just know that the
outro is coming and I'm going to be in the
book like everybody better take all their money, you know,
(42:14):
I'm going to be in there just like really giving
everyone the information. But what do you hope that readers
receive from the Arabesque Table as they I mean, I
would think a book at the Arabesque Table, some people
will read it cover to cover. Some people might read
(42:34):
through those you know, beginning portions where you're kind of
setting the scene here, and then they'll be going in
and out looking through the different recipes deciding what they
want to cook. Right. Everyone will have different ways that
they approach reading the book. But what do you hope
people are getting from it as they're engaging with it?
You know how we talked about the concept of home
(42:56):
before on the show, and I wrote about this in
the Palestinian Table as well. I think what unites Arab
cultures across the board is the sense of home and
the sense of generosity where if somebody knocks on your
door a minute before you set the table, you will
always have an extra plate and enough to feed them.
And I cannot obviously invite every single reader into my home.
(43:18):
But what I hope that they get while reading through
this book is the sense of generosity, the sense of welcomeness,
that you are welcome into this cuisine. You are welcome
not only to enjoy it, but to try it and
to experiment yourself with it adapted to suit your taste.
You're not committing a crime by doing that. You know
it's better to enjoy it and learn about its history
(43:38):
and then adapt it to yours so that you can
continue to eat from it. And then the other thing
that luss on the emotional side, I hope they realize
just how many misconceptions we have about food and its origins,
and how important these conversations are to be having, and
that we need to look at food through much longer
and deeper lens than the one that we've been looking
(43:59):
at it. That's dream. Thank you so much for being
a guest in our in our her living room, but
I feel like we we ventured into her kitchen a
little bit. And so I just want you to know, realm,
I am dreaming up a time when the pandemic is over,
that someone would just first of all pay you lots
(44:19):
of money to do this on TV, and then Secondly,
I'm dreaming that they would pay me at least a
medium to large amount to be on TV with you
for one of those episodes. I would just be happy
if you can come to my house and eat at
my table, so that would be good enough for me. Yes,
we're gonna do that. Ream. Thank you so much for joining.
(44:41):
This has been awesome. I'm so glad we got to
gather in the living room and around the table with Ream. Cassise.
Make sure you get her latest book, The Arabesque Table
at your favorite bookseller, and you could also follow on
Instagram at reem casis. That's at R E E M
(45:05):
K A S S I S. For this week's edition
of Give Her a Crown, I want to shout out
chef Edna Lewis. I found my way to Edna Lewis
when I was in the process of healing a body
broken by major surgery and weeks of recovery. A friend
came to my house and made me biscuits from Edna
Lewis's recipe. Shout out to my friend Andy, and they
(45:27):
were so much better than the hockey puck of a
biscuit I tried to make myself. I started reading Edna
Lewis is the taste of country cooking. I was transported
to Freetown, Virginia, to the farm and the hearth kitchens
of black women who cooked and planted, and reaped and
sewed according to the season. Over the years I have
(45:48):
cooked my way through Edna Lewis's book. It has returned
me to my Southern roots. She reminds me of the
women I come from. Chef Andedna Lewis is one of
the four mothers of Southern food and soul food. Chef
Edna passed away in two thousand six, but her recipes
and her storytelling will be passed on for years to come.
Chef Edna Lewis give her a crown. Her with Amina
(46:24):
Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Solografity Productions as
a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership
with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't forget
to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
Welcome y'all back to another episode of Her with Amina Brown.
And those of you that have been listening to the
podcast for a while, you know that I always talk
about how when we are gathered here listening to the podcast,
we are in our her living room, but in my house,
my living room is actually an open room that opens
(00:22):
into the kitchen. And with today's guest, I feel like
we are we are in our her living room and
we are also adjacent to the kitchen. So I'm so
excited to have all of the conversation. Palestinian author and
(00:48):
writer whose work has won awards from James Beard in
PR and the Guild of Food Writers, I want you
to welcome author of The Palestinian Table and her latest book,
The Arabesque Table, Realm Cassis. Thank you Amina. Oh my gosh. Ream.
First of all, let me tell y'all that are listening
(01:09):
here that Realm and I have a mutual friend who
has regaled me with your amazing nous for a long time.
Ream actually like our friend Lyrics. Shout out to Lyric.
She is a fantastic culture and food journalist, photographer, writer,
She's amazing and she and I also just love to
(01:31):
talk food. She and I love to eat food. It's
like a bonding in our friendship that we're just always
discussing what we're eating. And so she had told me
about you and your work a while ago, and then
when she reached out, like, hey, so Ream's book is
coming out, And as soon you started talking, I was like, yes,
whatever you're about to say, um, yes, I want to interview. Yes,
(01:52):
she knows the most amazing people. And she told me
about you as well. She's been talking about you for
a while and she's like, I have this friend, do
you want to be on her podcast? I was like absolutely,
I mean I don't even need to know anything else.
If you recommend her, it's so I guess we were
both on the same page. They're completely meant to be.
And I'm just y'all. First of all, I have to
tell you, you you know, podcasting is it's a limited situation
(02:15):
because you know, there's no way for REALM and I
to talk and show you how beautiful Realms books are.
I mean gorgeous, okay, Like it is a wonderful combination
of this writing and the recipes are there and the
images are just gorgeous. So even having looked at the images.
(02:36):
I'm like, I really wish that it was not a pandemic,
that I could be like in the kitchen with you. Really.
I also want to just speak out here into the
listeners that I know there are executives who work in
television listening to this podcast, and you need to go
ahead and make a TV show of Realm Cassie. So
I'm just talking out here and I need you to
do it, and mainly selfishly so that I can be
(02:58):
a guest so I can finally cook for you in person. Okay,
I'm gonna be there messing up everything, eating all of it.
I want to talk about some of the themes in
your work, and I just really identified with a lot
of those themes, and I want to talk also about
(03:19):
your latest book because I want people to get a
chance to hear a bit about the inspiration behind it.
I really identify with the fact that you wrote your
first book and then you were like that might be it. Yeah,
pretty much. You were like, I don't know if this
is coming back. So I want to start with that.
Can you talk about what was your journey into book writing?
(03:43):
Did you see yourself ever getting into that where you
you know, I'm using the air quotes you're dragged kicking
and screaming. Were there are other people in your life
that were like ream We would love for you to
write more, share these stories more. I mean, how did
that become a part of the food journey? The writing?
So it's interesting because for those who don't know me,
my background was not in writing orange food at all.
(04:06):
I did grow up in a literary family, if you will.
So my grandfather was a children's author and he was
very well recognized back home. So those always felt like
big shoes to fill, you know. I loved reading, I
loved writing, but it was not something I thought I
would pursue professionally. And then I went to undergrad in
the US, I got my m b A. I worked
in consulting, and it wasn't until my first daughter was
(04:28):
born and I was on maternity leaf for a year
because London is amazing like that, and that's where we
were living at the time that I started working on
this book. And it actually didn't start out as a book.
It started out as my desire to put together my
family's recipes and stories in a medium that she could
have with her wherever she went in the world. And
(04:51):
I think when I saw them all come together, I realized, Okay,
these are my family's recipes, their stories, but taken together
as a whole, they could be the story of any
Palestinian family. And it's a story that is most often
not heard and very different to the one we're used to,
and I felt a sense of responsibility to share that
with the world. And that's how that first book came
(05:14):
to be in a very simplistic way. Obviously the journey
was a lot messier than it sounds in hindsight. But
that's why I always said I thought it would be
my first and last book, because it wasn't something that
I jumped into with the idea that I'm going to
turn this into a career. And then once the book
came out, obviously I did interviews and podcasts and people
would ask questions like what is the difference between Palestinian
(05:36):
cuisine and Lebanese or Syrian? And I started digging into
this whole idea of food history, and I was shocked
at what I realized, which is that the lens through
which we look at cuisine is very distorted because it
only looks back in the range of one hundred to
two hundred years, but cuisine is so much older than that.
The very idea of national cuisine is a relatively recent construct.
(06:00):
So with this new book, I wanted to grasp in
a way or showcase what a modern Arab table looks like.
What do we eat at home today as Palestinians who
live abroad, who have access to certain ingredients, but not
others who have friends from one part of the world
and another. And at the same time, I realized, if
I want to show that with integrity, I have to
(06:22):
trace the history of these dishes. And that's kind of
where the idea for this book came from and how
it evolved into the one that you see today. M
you voiced just now something that really meant a lot
to me in your work, that you didn't want your
writing to be disconnected from history, And I just think
(06:43):
that's so powerful. And I mean, also, I am a
person that's very inspired by old things. But I think
a part of it is because to me it feels
hard to make or right or capture if I'm not
also where or bringing into the space. This is not
(07:03):
a new thing we're doing, even if we are here
now where there are these types of appliances or these
ways our homes may be set up. Now we are
doing a thing that has historically been done as well,
and I love that connection. I mean cuisine in general.
I mean it's also it runs so deep, and if
(07:24):
you look at its past, it is very cross cultural.
It is very integrated, right. You know, you learn from
other people, your circumstances, occupations, wars, empires, They influence it.
So knowing your history and cherishing it is not mutually
exclusive with evolving and changing. And I guess that was
the point I was trying to get across, because you
(07:44):
see so many people who will cook a certain dish
and either attribute it to one cuisine or completely forget
to attribute it to a certain cuisine, as if recognizing
the history detracts from the beauty of what we have today.
And I think it's the opposite. Seeing how much something
has changed and understanding it's rich past makes us appreciate
it all the more, even if that past is not
(08:06):
always a pleasant one, which in many cases it's not
right right. I think the other thing that I want
to talk to you about also in the idea of
how especially when we're talking about food and we can't
talk about culture without talking about food, and then we
can't talk about food without talking about culture. I mean,
they're just so like interconnected that way, but when we're
(08:28):
talking about food and culture sort of inter linked together,
I think in particular. And I don't know if I
don't know if this is an American thing, a West thing,
a colonization thing. I just don't know, But I'm gonna
bring it up here because I'm interested to hear your
thoughts about this, even for me, Like I I love
to cook, but I'm like a home cook. I love
(08:49):
to say, like I might make ugly food, but it's
still tastes amazing. I'm just you know, I don't really plate.
I don't either. I'm just like, here, here is everything.
It's delicious. I don't know what it looks like, but
it's here exactly. And as I've grown as a home
cook and sometimes have desire to cook things from other
(09:10):
countries or other cultures, I've noticed how it can sometimes
take a little more digging to get to the writers
and chefs that are actually native to that culture or
native to that country, where you're actually getting to hear
from them how we make this, What is the history
(09:33):
of this that there are other sites and we'll name
their names here, but other sites that exist there that
you're like, oh, I'm going to find this particular dish,
and then you get there and you know it's somebody
wherever wherever they live in the middle of whatever, and
they're like, here's how I make this. And then when
you actually read that from a writer that's writing about
(09:56):
what they ate of this in their family of origin home,
you know, or growing up in their mother, aunt's, grandmother's kitchen.
And I think that is also really integral to your
work and why I am so glad your voice exists
because we want to hear about this from you. We
(10:17):
don't want to hear about it from someone who this
is not home, this is not family to them. Why
do you think that's important for writers like yourself to
share these stories from your own upbringing, your own cultural experience.
I think it's a couple of things. I mean, you know,
for starters, you can't divorce food from culture because so
(10:39):
much of it is dependent on the context. So many
of the dishes that I will talk about, it's not
just as some of the ingredients and the way the
dish taster looks like it's also what it signifies, What
occasions is it eating on, what history does it tell?
How did it change over time? You know, there are
dishes now which I talk about in the book, made
with rice, but traditionally my on father tells me, you know,
(11:01):
they were so poor that rice was something reserved for
the wealthy. They only ate bulgar grains. And someone coming
from outside the culture trying to tell you a certain
story about a dish, he might cover or she might
cover just the way that dish is cooked today and
forget all that history that brought it to the point
that we're seeing. But also other than that, I mean,
(11:23):
what I noticed sometimes is you look at a certain
dish and you can bring ten Palestinians, and each of
us will tell you, oh, no, no, no, this is
the way it's supposed to be made, and this is
the way my mother makes it, and they're all right,
there's nothing wrong with them, right, you know. Every I
always say this, especially about lube, which is considered one
of the national dishes of Palestine. There are probably as
(11:44):
many versions of it as there are families in the country,
which is totally okay in my mind. And then I
struggle sometimes I think, well, what about if someone wants
to convey that dish to the Western world and that
person is not Palestinian? Is that wronger? Is that right?
And I don't have you know, I wish the answer
was clear cut, black and white. It's wrong, it's right.
(12:05):
I think if you're someone who has immersed yourself in
that culture, if you are a non Palestinian who has
lived in the country it, lived amongst its people, understood
that culture, and you're doing it justice. I don't have
a problem with that. You know, some people disagree with me,
and they will say, no, you have absolutely no right.
But then you start drawing a line where there's no
creativity and there's no interaction in cuisine was not meant
(12:27):
to be that way. It never was. The issue I
have is when someone gives you a dish that does
not a recognize the origin, is not even remotely close
to what the people in the country eat. And then
once you bring in the issue of profit, who's benefiting
from it? And I'm not just talking financially, I'm talking,
you know, publicity wise, who's getting the recognition for it?
(12:50):
If you're getting it at the expense of the people
who have provided you with this, then we start to
have an issue. Yeah, that's such a great point. And
even for people that might to use the example you
gave there, for people who might be non Palestinian that
may want to share this such and such a recipe.
(13:11):
It's like if you were immersed in the culture, if
you have been immersed in a culture that isn't your own,
then the hope would be that you even walk into
whatever that page or writing space is with this sense
of honor which you know, to what you were talking
about in your own writing process, that is still connected
to history, that is still connected to the culture in
(13:31):
which the food is rooted, which I think is so
powerful and so beautiful. I also want to talk about
home because that is this theme that comes up a
lot in your work, and it's also a topic that
fascinates me because I was a kid that moved around
a lot growing up and then I, you know, before
(13:53):
the pandemic anyway, I was traveling mostly became a performing
artist that traveled a lot. So my my home is
very I mean sometimes I look at it and I
think like it's fractured on some levels, because you know,
it wasn't like I grew up in this home from
being born until I got out of high school or something,
(14:13):
and then went into my adulthood and made that place home.
It was sort of like all these different places became
home to me. But I'm always interested in how we
talk about home because there are so many different ways
to define that that sometimes that is a very specific place.
Like I was actually talking with my sister the other
day about how home is very specifically from me my
(14:34):
mother's house, and it's like wherever my mother's house is,
if it's down the street, if it's you know, whatever,
she is in her house. When I step across the threshold,
I am at home. When you think of home, what
are could be one place for you? Could be specific places,
but what are the specific like concrete places. You think, Oh,
(14:58):
that feels like home to me. Oh, it's interesting you
say it's where your mom is, because for me, it's
a combination of location and as well as people. You know,
my mother used to always say for me, home is
where my kids are. My grandmother used to say the
same thing. She would say holidays or when my kids
are together. So there's a sense of home is where
the people that you love and care most for all
(15:20):
with that said, I notice, you know, I live outside
Philadelphia with my husband and two daughters. Do I care
about more than anything in the world. But I constantly
feel uprooted. I don't feel home, and I think in
large part, and I talked to my husband about this
all the time. I say, like, you know, what do
I have? Where is the where are the roots? Where
is the family the history that ties me to this place,
(15:42):
and it's not here. And if I go back to,
you know, my paternal or maternal grandparents villages. I grew
up in Jerusalem, so I didn't grow up in those villages,
but I go there. My grandmother, my great grandmother, her mother.
Everyone is rooted to that place. Everyone knows everyone. You
are born and you die in that place. And I
used to look at that like, oh my god, I
want to get out. I want to see the world,
(16:04):
like this is so claustrophobic. And now that I've left
and I've seen everything, I realize how much value there
is in being in a place that can be traced
so far back, that gives you a sense of place
and meaning. So for me, the places that really mean
home are the people. It's obviously my parents, my brother,
and my husband, my kids. But when I'm back home
(16:25):
in Jerusalem in particular, it's where I grew up, so
in the old city that's associated with so many pleasant
memories for me that it screams home when I go there.
But then also the villages that my grandparents are from,
they're very different, you know, it's very rural, it's very communal.
It's changed over the years. But when I'm there, I
feel a sense of belonging that I don't always feel
(16:46):
in other places. But then the flip side of that is,
having lived so long outside, I also feel like an
outsider when I go home, and I'm constantly straddling this divide,
and it's not an easy place to live in. You know.
People look from the outside and thing, oh, it's glamorous.
You live in one place, you traveled to another, but
it's actually it's almost a burden on sundays. Yeah, I
(17:09):
on a level, I'll say I get that, not not
as much having the international elements of that, but having
sort of grown up visiting where my parents both grew
up in North Carolina, that that was home for them,
but because my grandmother was there, it felt like home
to me. But we were of my of my mom's siblings.
(17:32):
I think we moved around the most, my mom and
my sister and I, so we were sort of like
always rotating around that and there were times where we
would come home and sort of be with our you know,
are what would I guess be like second cousins by
time you get to like your second and third cousins.
We had enough family North Carolina that that's what it
was like there and feeling like, oh, like my voice
(17:54):
sounds very different right right, like from their voices, and like, um,
remember the town that my grandmother was from, and my
parents both are from that same place, you know, where
they would go for fun to like this particular skating rink,
you know, And I was living in bigger cities with
my mom by that time, where it's kind of like, oh,
(18:15):
that's all you have is this little this little skating rink. Oh,
But to my cousins, it's like that skating rinks everything, right,
because that's where everybody of a certain age is going
to have fun on a weekend. And those different aspects
are are so interesting to how we find home, you know.
Hearing you talk about that, just this like duality there
(18:36):
of like there is something about the air there and
the soil there that feels home to me. But there
is this element of like, but this is not where
I grew up or I really went to school. Maybe
one year I went to school. They're living with my grandmother,
but otherwise, you know, I want to also ask, as
we're talking about home, I want to talk about the kitchen.
(18:57):
And I'm riveted by how there is this generation of
womanhood in your writing room. That it is you as
a mother to your daughters the things that you want
them to know, but it is you remembering yourself as
a young girl in these kitchen moments with your mother
(19:20):
and your grandmother's and so on. Can you talk about
what's the scene like in the kitchen with the other
women in your family? Is the kitchen obviously, it's the
place where, like, is the food getting prepared, is the
food getting cooked? It is? Are other womanhood lessons happening
there in the kitchen? And what were some of those
(19:43):
that you remember or that you experience now even with
your own children. So the experience is very different because
I like to have my girls in the kitchen and
I like teaching them and talking to them. For my
mother's generation and my grandmother's generation, it was get out
of the kitchen, really, because they looked at me. You know,
my grandmother was not that way with my mother, but
(20:04):
my mother was that way with me because she looked
at my generation as the one that was going to
get out of the kitchen and was going to do something.
So if I tried to cook, it was leap go study.
This is not your thing, you know. And I mentioned
that I was thinking to write a cookbook or do
something with food. My mother's response was who goes and
gets an mba to end up in the kitchen. Of
course she backtracksic that she never said that, or if
(20:25):
she said it, she didn't mean it that way. And
you know, it's it's the point we talked about all
the time, and I mentioned this in the book. It
wasn't just her, it was everyone in society back then,
someone telling my father why sent her to the US
for university? She's going to end up in the kitchen anyway.
So there was that element of it. But as most
kids will tell you, whatever you're not supposed to do,
(20:46):
you want to do. And so I wanted to be
in the kitchen. I wanted to see what they were cooking.
It's also where you heard all the gossip, right because
that's where the women are, So that's where you learn
about things you're not necessarily supposed to learn that at
certain ages. I remember my grandmother had this um. I
guess you would call it a pantry these days, but
it was a room above her fridge. You have to
climb on a ladder to get to it, and my
(21:08):
cousins and I would hide in there, and of course
you'd listen in onto everything that the women were saying.
And other times, you know, we'd run in and added
the kitchen. We tried to help out, but the women
would show us and whatnot. But once you get older,
they start relying on you a bit more and you
start to learn some of the tips and tricks. Although
for me most of the learning was visual and auditory.
(21:28):
I wasn't actually helping out in the kitchen. I think
the first time I cooked, I was an undergrad and
I wanted to make my little bit in my dorm kitchen.
I don't even know how I pulled it off, but
it was long before zoom and FaceTime, and my mother
goes at one point, it's cheaper for me to get
a ticket and come cook it for you than to
pay your long distance phone stop calling to ask how
to make it so, but I learned along the way.
(21:52):
I mean, it's something that there's this concept in Arabic
called nufus, which it means it's similar to breath or air,
but in the context of cooking. It talks about something
that a cook will impart into the food part of
their spirit, their love, their generosity, and I feel if
someone has that, their food will turn out very good,
(22:14):
even if you don't have that much experience, and obviously
you hone it through time and through cooking. M m
m hmm. I love that. I love that there was
that little nook to hide in it now that I
think about it, because it was like when you're a
little girl and the women and the family are gathering.
I mean, it just feels like that's a place to be,
Like they're going to be in there talking about all
(22:34):
sorts of stuff that yes everything, you know, who did
one and who in the village and what the leaders
gossip is. And it was a simple time but fascinating
them the less. Okay, Reem, you shared a little bit
(22:56):
about this before, but can you talk about what experience
was like for you making the career shift that led
to where you are now as an author. I just
found that part of your story. I found it so fascinating.
But I also think, you know, there are a lot
of people listening that are sort of in this kind
of in between place before that shift happens. So can
(23:21):
you talk about what was what was the shift where?
I feel like in your story there's sort of this
like before time, before this that was like really different.
And then how did you find yourself sort of finding
in a way it seemed from your story and you
can tell me if I'm describing this accurately, but it
seems like you were finding your way back as you
(23:43):
were finding your way forward. So what was that change like?
Were you afraid when you felt the change coming? Absolutely,
I'm still afraid, if we're being honest. And that's one
thing I want to preface my answer with which people
will look at someone who has transitioned and is quote
unquote on the other side or has accomplished something, and
they'll think, Oh, it looks easy or oh it looks great,
(24:05):
but it's this struggle and it still is for a
lot of reasons which I'll get into But like I
told you, I left Jerusalem wanting to prove to anyone
who thought otherwise that a woman's place was not in
the kitchen, that she could achieve professional success and other domains,
that you could be in a males world and do well.
(24:25):
And I was on that track. I mean, I did
my undergrad at PEN, I did my NBA. It warn't
straight out of undergrad, which is very uncommon. I worked
at McKinsey, so I picked every single box. And then
I think it hit me at some point soon after
I started working and consulting that here I am ticking
all these boxes, but there's somebody else's boxes, not mine.
This isn't what makes me happy. And you know, I
(24:48):
was lucky enough for I was able to leave and
transition to something else. But it was very scary when
I first started out because there was no, uh guarantee
that it was going to work out. I was also
by the time that I decided to make this transition,
I was married and the issue of financially supporting myself
on my own wasn't a big thing. And people don't
(25:09):
talk about this, but taking a risk like this, it
requires either a willingness to really tie in, you know,
bootstrap your life or you're gonna have to find a
way to make ends meet if you're not fighting, you know,
if you're financially dependent or not financially independent. Um, So
that was one part of it, which is something that
(25:30):
needs to be talked about. You know, how do you
allow someone who wants to pursue the creative arts to
be able to make a living? And I get really
anger when I think about this that why is it
that someone who's producing let's just call it widgets or
a tech app or whatnot, is able to go out
there and raise insane amounts of money. But someone who's
producing art, which is what I would argue makes life
(25:52):
worth living. Maybe it doesn't move the economy or boost it,
but it's well gives their life meaning and purpose. Why
is that not valued in the same monetary terms? And
when I said to you, it's still difficult for me today.
This is one of the issues where you know, I
look at people I went to school with who remained
in those careers, who've made partner at those firms, which
I could have already been at that point had I stayed.
(26:15):
And obviously, as a food writer, you're not in that
same bracket when it comes to, you know, financially, and
I think I judge myself based on those things because
I was conditioned to do that. For five years. I
was in an environment that equated success with money, and
it's hard to transition to a point where you equate
success with something else, with contribution. And that's what I think,
(26:37):
you know. I think what's helped me is thinking in
fifty years or in a hundred years, when I'm not here,
will there still be a part of me that's remember
that's recognized. And I think when you contribute something to
society in any kind of art, whether it's books, performance,
are painting and music, those are things that can last forever.
(27:00):
You know, if you're not that, the other work is
not important. But there I felt there were a hundred
people who could do the job I was doing professionally,
but not that many people who could be the same
mother to my kids and also produce for my people
and my community. The thing that I signed my hands up.
Sorry that was heavy, and it didn't feel heavy to
(27:20):
me read, but it feels it feels powerful, and it
feels very honest. Because I think when we're having conversations
about you know, insert buzzwords here, about dreams, about passions,
about calling, about what that looks like in our vocations.
It has been really important to me, and particularly on
this podcast, because women of color are here sharing their
(27:42):
own stories and experiences and I'm sharing some of mine too,
that we have some honest talks about what that actually
looks like. You know, I worked in corporate for a
while doing communications for a big fortune five hundred and
I was so excited, like for the first time to
be getting paid eight you know at that time what
felt like paid so well to be writing right, and
(28:04):
then six months in was like, wow, I hate this,
I hate this, and then quitting and going broke. I
did an episode sort of walking through people like you know,
people see you, you know, at the book signing right
or you know, they see your name on whatever the
articles and different awards are. They see your name there
(28:26):
and they're like, oh goodness, and You're like, well, behind
the scenes, what that really means. It's what it looks like.
Some struggles were had. Even the day before said award
was received. I was actually exactly doing these things. So
I think it's I think and hope that it's helpful
for people to hear. It's not to say, don't pursue
(28:49):
this thing that you feel passionate about that may not
have this like equation to how it's going to be,
you know, air quote how other people might define success.
It's not to say don't pursue those things or or
look to make these shifts. It's to say, there's rough
and tumble along the journey. Right, there's rough and tumble
(29:10):
in every path you decide to take. And I think
it's recognizing that there is not a single career path
in this world that you will take that will be
smooth sailing the whole way through. You know, Yeah, Okay,
I have my name on books and I go to
book signings and whatnot. But you know what I do
at home, My wash additions and I you know, I
have to all day long. That's what I do. You know,
(29:32):
I'm cleaning up my stove when I forget a pot,
and it boy like, this is what day to day
life looks like. It's not the glamorous book signings. And
then when you're in corporate America or the corporate world
anywhere you're I was working sixteen hour days. I remember,
like you were saying thinking, oh my god, I'm getting
paid so well, I can afford anything I want to
buy now. But suddenly all those things I thought I
wanted to buy, in the designer clothes and handbags and shoes,
(29:54):
I had no desire to even wear them. I just
my life felt so me meaningless at that point that
that stuff could not fill whatever gap I was feeling.
And if there's one thing I've noticed is it's when
you start doing something that thinks of someone else more
than you are, something that gives back, you find a
sense of meaning much more than when you're pursuing things
(30:16):
that are purely hedonistic just for your own satisfact mm hmm.
I love you brought up the word meaning. I think
that's important. You know, when we're thinking about what do
we want to do, you know, in in the world,
in our communities, I think it is about is it
is it meaningful? You know? And not? And of course
I get it. Not everything we do is going to
(30:37):
be meaningful. Um, even in my you know, current like
writer event life. I mean, I'm sure for all of
us that are in sort of creative space, I mean,
there are all sorts of like gigs and different things
that like you know, you take something so they can
pay the bills. You do that. But I think it's
good for us to think about what are the things
in my life, whether it's my vocation or not, that
I want to do because it's meaningful, because it means
(30:59):
something me, or because I think it would mean something
to my people or to my community. You know, I
think that's so important. Let's talk about the Arabesque Table. Okay,
what was the writing process like for the Arabesque Table?
And I'm just going to tell you I've never I've
never written a cookbook or anything with recipes in it,
(31:21):
so I don't know that part. But I have written
two books and it's a wild time for me. It's like,
I just I feel like I start out eating a
lot of carbohydrates because I'm just like, oh, why did
I do this to my Like there's a lot of stress.
There's a lot of beautiful ideas I had when I
(31:42):
was sketching out the book, and then I get to
actually writing it and it doesn't sound like that at all.
So much better in your head than when you put
it on paper, I know. Yeah, So talk to me,
what was your what was your writing process like after
eve envisioned the Arabsque Table. What was it like when
(32:02):
you actually had to sit down and do the writing.
So here's the funny thing. The arabsk Table was not
the book I initially envisioned, and I'm so glad it wasn't.
Um a lot of the things I'm telling you about
the history and how much of it I integrated in
the book, and also the idea of positioning it as
Arab versus Middle Eastern that came throughout the writing process.
(32:22):
So in a way, you know, not knowing what you're
doing sometimes is a blessing. Okay, Okay, that's that's encouraging everyone.
Remember sometimes not knowing what you're doing can be a blessing.
I'm gonna take that home with me. Okay, yes, at
least I tell myself that. But the day to day process, Look,
it was a little bit harder than the first one
for a couple of reasons. One was the first book
(32:45):
was taking recipes I'd grown up with and I knew
and just testing them, making sure they worked, and getting
exact ingredients for them. Here, it was developing a lot
of recipes, guessing what might or might not work, and
sometimes having to test it multiple times, all while cooking
with kids who are four and six. You know, with
the first book, they were a newborn and two years old.
(33:05):
They ate whatever I told them to eat, or they
had milk, and they were fine, whereas now it was
constant complaint and on top of recipe testing, you're cooking
things that the kids will eat. But that was most
of my day, and then my nights were transcribing all
those recipes and then the actual meat. I kept to
the very end, so that's when all the chapter intros
the introduction, that's when it all came together. And then um,
(33:29):
the introduction to the book did not happen until I
was supposed to go home to Jerusalem in March for
my photo shoot and two days before they issued a
blanket quarantine, had to cancel our flights. Everything was we
didn't even know if the book could come out when
it was scheduled too, And I felt so much during
that time, anger, frustration, just and I was able to
write the introduction through those feelings, and it's not the
(33:52):
introduction I would have imagined at all, but somehow it
came out something so much better than I could have envisioned.
So another hopeful a useful thing is sometimes just accept
those feelings, live through them. It's something beautiful can come
out of it on the other side, if you will.
But the writing mostly happened yet towards the tail end
(34:12):
of it, and a lot of the writing happened when
I was back home in Drewsale. So it's interesting the
recipes are tested abroad in the US, but then the
more narrative part was written back home. And being able
to see it from both angles or both sides, I
guess made the book what it was. It's modern, it's contemporary,
it's cross cultural, but it's also going far back in history.
(34:36):
Would you say location matters to your writing process? Did it?
Did it do something different to you being home in
Jerusalem writing and being just being there the air, you know,
the feeling of being there and then being here in
the U S writing. Does that add a different something
to your writing process? I think so. I mean, it's
(34:56):
hard to sign typically explain how the writing process works, right,
There's so many elements. It's like cooking. Why is it
that if I cook a dish when I'm angry, taste
one way, and if I'm happy, taste another way. And
if I'm doing it in this kitchen, it's like this
in another kitchen. It's like that. And I think writing
is similar. It's not that being there changes the way
I write, but the thoughts I have, the emotions I
(35:18):
experienced are different, and that comes through in the writing.
And yes, smelling the air probably reminds me of certain
memories when I was young that might not have been
triggered in my mind had I been writing it in
you know, my apartment. And in that sense, yes, absolutely does.
I was reading through a couple of the recipes in
(35:39):
this book, and you know, there's all this like funny
talk on the internet right now about when you go
to like a blog to read a recipe, right you're
just like scroll, scroll, scroll, you know, to read. I
just want to get to the recipe. But in reading
your book, both are I mean, in many blogs they're
also equally important, okay, But in your book, uh, they
(36:02):
are equally important. I mean you had one of the
recipes that I was reading through was for a certain
type of salad, and in your intro you were writing about,
you know, where where does the idea for salad come from?
What are the actual roots of that? In in ancient
food and you know, you were giving us that context,
(36:23):
and then you were like, here's why I'm doing what
I'm doing with this recipe now, you know, for these
sort of modern context Can you talk about you've told
us already how it's important to connect history, you know,
to like what you're writing. Could you talk about the
process of these recipes and the stories and history that's
going along there. What was that like and what do
(36:45):
you hope readers gain from getting to have those layers
in this book. So I think the book has about
a hundred and thirty or recipes in it. I started
out with over two hundred, so so the process involved
a lot of elimination and people always ask how did
you figure out which recipes you were going to keep in?
(37:07):
And I think the head notes you alluded to, we're
part of the reasons certain recipes state and certain recipes went.
It's you have two hundred and fifty pages. I mean,
there's a limit to how much history you can convey.
So I guess what I picked and chose were the
stories that charted that journey from past to present. So,
(37:29):
you know, rather than having five recipes whose head notes
talk about the origins of salad, I will pick one
which explains how it's from Roman times and salad is
the Latin word for salt, and that's how vegetables are seasoned,
and so on and so forth. I I think a
lot of it was trying to figure out how do
I tell this story, which snippets of information can showcases
specific points I wanted to get across, and those points
(37:50):
were a lot of the origins that we think are
like that, certain foods we think belong to are actually
completely inaccurate. You know, things like tomatoes. People think Italian food,
they think pasta with tomato sauce, or even Arabic cuisine
they think tomato stews. Tomatoes didn't make their way to
our part of the world till the nineteenth century. Wow,
(38:11):
And they are a result of the Colombian exchange or
inquisition or you know, into the America's Uh. Same with
other ingredients. You know, chilis, they are not native to
India or to Thailand. Coco is not native to Switzerland
or Belgium. And it's fascinating to see the history of
ingredients and crops. And that's why the book is broken
up by ingredients, because those are the ones that really
(38:32):
show you the shift in the history of cuisine. Why
call the book the Arabesque Table. I want to ask
on both words here, on Arabesque and table, why are
both of these words important to the journey of this book.
So I think Arabsque is the most important word in
(38:55):
that title. The table was similar to the first book.
It was this idea that this is where you serve
a meal. Everyone's welcome at the table. It was the
same publisher, so it was a nice way to maintain
the consistency. But Arabsque was very, very important, and I
felt hard to get that title on the book because
I wanted it to come across that this was not
just another quote unquote Middle Eastern cookbook. And I also
(39:18):
had an issue with the term Middle East because Middle
East is a European, a Western imperialistic view of our
part of the world in relation to the easternmost colony
of the British Empire, which was India. So India to
the far East, Europe is Europe, and we're in the
middle between the two. So it became the Middle East.
But it doesn't mean anything, And a lot of terms
(39:38):
in the social sciences don't mean something concrete, but people
use them and in the culinary world, people use Middle
East because it's essentially evocative, and it, you know, alludes
to certain things in certain dishes in your mind. But accurately,
what combines and unites the food of our region is
there a culturation under Arab culture and Islamic rule. So
I very much wanted the book to be air cuisine,
(40:02):
and I wanted that to come in the title. With
that said, it would to call it the Arab Table
would also not be accurate. And here I am preaching about,
you know, telling the truth and acknowledging the history. A
lot of the recipes in this book are the result
of cross cultural interaction. They take inspiration from other cultures,
from travels, they're a modern way of eating. An Arabesque
(40:26):
alludes to the fact that it's Arab, but it's not
a hundred percent Arab. And then there's one other reason,
which I don't talk about in the book because again
limited wordspace. But Arabesque is a dance move in ballet
where you have one ft on the ground with a
hand reaching forward and your other leg up in the air.
And I felt to me this was kind of a
symbol of how you're rooted and you're grounded in history,
(40:48):
but you're still reaching towards the future, trying to you know,
move forward. But it doesn't have to be either, or
you can do both at the same time. Oh that
dance imagery at the end right there, I mean, the
whole thing that you shared there. I hope everyone listening
(41:08):
is really hearing realm and learning on this because when
we are here, for those of you that are listening,
that are that are in the West, you're in the
States or in other parts of the West, there is
so much of how we are being told to view
other cultures, other nations, other parts of the world that
(41:29):
are not actually accurate to what it means to be there,
to be from there. And so I love that correction
of being able to say, let's not say Middle Eastern,
let's say Arabesque. I also just love how the e
s q u E. I mean, you know, it sounds
so sophisticated. If you are it does a thing very
(41:52):
like I don't know how to it sounds like the
banquets that they used to have in the past, and
they really were very elaborate. I love that read what
would you say, people who are listening, they are they
are needing to get this book. Just know that the
outro is coming and I'm going to be in the
book like everybody better take all their money, you know,
(42:14):
I'm going to be in there just like really giving
everyone the information. But what do you hope that readers
receive from the Arabesque Table as they I mean, I
would think a book at the Arabesque Table, some people
will read it cover to cover. Some people might read
(42:34):
through those you know, beginning portions where you're kind of
setting the scene here, and then they'll be going in
and out looking through the different recipes deciding what they
want to cook. Right. Everyone will have different ways that
they approach reading the book. But what do you hope
people are getting from it as they're engaging with it?
You know how we talked about the concept of home
(42:56):
before on the show, and I wrote about this in
the Palestinian Table as well. I think what unites Arab
cultures across the board is the sense of home and
the sense of generosity where if somebody knocks on your
door a minute before you set the table, you will
always have an extra plate and enough to feed them.
And I cannot obviously invite every single reader into my home.
(43:18):
But what I hope that they get while reading through
this book is the sense of generosity, the sense of welcomeness,
that you are welcome into this cuisine. You are welcome
not only to enjoy it, but to try it and
to experiment yourself with it adapted to suit your taste.
You're not committing a crime by doing that. You know
it's better to enjoy it and learn about its history
(43:38):
and then adapt it to yours so that you can
continue to eat from it. And then the other thing
that luss on the emotional side, I hope they realize
just how many misconceptions we have about food and its origins,
and how important these conversations are to be having, and
that we need to look at food through much longer
and deeper lens than the one that we've been looking
(43:59):
at it. That's dream. Thank you so much for being
a guest in our in our her living room, but
I feel like we we ventured into her kitchen a
little bit. And so I just want you to know, realm,
I am dreaming up a time when the pandemic is over,
that someone would just first of all pay you lots
(44:19):
of money to do this on TV, and then Secondly,
I'm dreaming that they would pay me at least a
medium to large amount to be on TV with you
for one of those episodes. I would just be happy
if you can come to my house and eat at
my table, so that would be good enough for me. Yes,
we're gonna do that. Ream. Thank you so much for joining.
(44:41):
This has been awesome. I'm so glad we got to
gather in the living room and around the table with Ream. Cassise.
Make sure you get her latest book, The Arabesque Table
at your favorite bookseller, and you could also follow on
Instagram at reem casis. That's at R E E M
(45:05):
K A S S I S. For this week's edition
of Give Her a Crown, I want to shout out
chef Edna Lewis. I found my way to Edna Lewis
when I was in the process of healing a body
broken by major surgery and weeks of recovery. A friend
came to my house and made me biscuits from Edna
Lewis's recipe. Shout out to my friend Andy, and they
(45:27):
were so much better than the hockey puck of a
biscuit I tried to make myself. I started reading Edna
Lewis is the taste of country cooking. I was transported
to Freetown, Virginia, to the farm and the hearth kitchens
of black women who cooked and planted, and reaped and
sewed according to the season. Over the years I have
(45:48):
cooked my way through Edna Lewis's book. It has returned
me to my Southern roots. She reminds me of the
women I come from. Chef Andedna Lewis is one of
the four mothers of Southern food and soul food. Chef
Edna passed away in two thousand six, but her recipes
and her storytelling will be passed on for years to come.
Chef Edna Lewis give her a crown. Her with Amina
(46:24):
Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Solografity Productions as
a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership
with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't forget
to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
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