January 31, 2023 • 49 mins
This week Dr. Alma Zaragoza-Petty joins us in the HER living room to talk about her new book Chingona: Owning Your Inner Badass! Listen in as Dr. Alma shares why it’s important to her to reclaim the term chingona and discusses some important tools you can use on your own healing journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody. Before we get into this week's episode, please
note that this episode contains brief mentions of sexual abuse.
If this topic may be triggering for you, please take
care of yourself by listening with caution or simply putting
this episode aside for another time. Oh, y'all. By the time,
(00:41):
y'all hear this, it's like a new year. It's a
new year, and I don't know, I don't know how
the people feel. You know, sometimes the new year feels nice.
Sometimes you wanted to kick rocks. I don't know. Just
know however you feel about the new year. We're here
holding space for you. And I'm excited because we are
here in the her living room with author of Chinona
(01:05):
owning your inner badass for healing and justice. Yes, people,
Dr Alma Zargo as a petty is in the building.
Thank you, Thank you. I mean, what are the vibes like?
Are you? Are you a person who wants the people
to give you Dr Almah? Because we love the respect
for the titles here. Just tell me the vibes, Dr Almah.
(01:29):
What do we want to be? Yeah? So my vibes
are for me. Leaders and people with power. I've had,
like some really interesting relationships with slash non relationships, so
and so, you know, it's it's like a really hard
topic for me, even when I teach, like in my
(01:49):
actual like university class, when I'm teaching graduate students I
teach part time at USC, I feel really weird and
gross when people call me doctor, and I think it's
big has of my past history with like authority figures
and is using and abusing their leadership. And so I
don't ever want anyone to call me doctor Alma if
(02:10):
it doesn't feel like genuine for them, you know. But
then I have people that are like, no, I want
to call you doctor Almas because it's amazing, like you're Latina,
You're out here like I want role models and you're one,
and so I'm like, cool, then let me be that
for you, you know. Yeah. So, but I'm not I'm
not picky either way. You can just call me Alma, Okay,
pretty chill about it. I like these differentiations because I'm
(02:34):
I'm for you listeners. I'm going to refer to her
as Alma today, but that means if we was in
a room and it's people there that need to pay
money to Almah, then it's doctor almah zaragos a penny.
Those are those are the vibes if people in the room,
they need to pay all the money. Now it's not Alma,
it's not a first name, it's Dr Alma. That's how
(02:57):
I feel like, when you have people in your life
that who have these types of titles, you need to
you need to hold it within in these ways. It's like,
if I'm at all my house, then okay, that's all
men and amina talking. But if we're in a work
function or some other professional setting, is doctor Zara goes
to penny to y'all, you know, because especially you know,
(03:25):
especially from my friends who are women of color, is
like sis, you know, earn't this doctorate? Like we we
want to go ahead and let the people know. And also,
and you have to tell me if you experience this,
some of my other friends who have titles like this
that they have earned, okay through their work and education,
will get in situations where white folks or men various
(03:49):
as sundry uh discriminatory people will know the title is
there and still not say it. Yes, this is a great,
great point you ring up, because this is why it's
such a really interesting kind of way thing to maneuver
for me in the classroom because the moment I tell
people like, hey, just so you know, I understand, there's like,
(04:13):
you know, there might be some weirdness with like how
power has been misused and abused within your lifetime and
why you may or may not want to call me
that or kind of have reservations. And when I give
permission this group of people that is diverse permission to
call me either doctor Almazo is a petty or or
(04:33):
just Alma. Guess who calls me alma and who feels
weird calling me doctor? Okay, the people. So I get that,
I get that, I get that, um, but I also
I think for me, the class that I teach is
also about diversity, equity and inclusion, and so part of
it is like we can bring that conversation to the
(04:55):
room and be like, oh, this is interesting. Why are
you having in such a hard time as another brown person,
let's say, calling me doctor Alma or calling me just Alma?
I mean, because that's usually who has a hard time. No,
that's because you earned your title and you know, like
I want to take you seriously and this is serious. Well,
whereas like why is it so easy for you to
just refer to me as Alma, you know, and and
(05:18):
not think about, you know, calling me doctor Alma. If
you're like someone who's a little more privileged in my classroom, Wow,
that's how That's not how I tell him. But you know,
I have those conversations like, yeah, have you noticed that, Like,
it's it was very easy for you. Have you noticed
other people it wasn't that easy for them? Okay, Like
definitely been in some rooms where I've watched women of
color have to be like it's doctor, it's doctor, it's
(05:39):
not MS, it's not mrs. It's not just my first name, Like, um,
I'm deserving to be here and worked hard for my
ship just like you did. So yeah, that's I wonder
if that's a South thing. I've never been called ms
or mrs. Like it's very rare to be called that
here in the West. That might be a South thing there.
(06:00):
For my people who are married, for for the women
in my life who are married and have a title.
That also gets strange in Southern environments because they want
to be like, oh, it's Mr. And Mrs. It is Mr.
And doctor she it's doctor. Or how about when they
just don't even address. It's like your name is, yeah,
(06:26):
I don't family of Mr so, and so like, how
about I exist to give my own name. I'm here please,
So today for our conversations listeners, it is Alma. But
if you owe Alma money, it's Dr Alma Zaza petty period. Okay, okay.
(06:47):
I want to talk about this book, Alma, because I
have so many questions for you, because as a person
who has completed post grad education this way and you've
completed this all the way up to your doctor, have
done a lot of writing, and now you've written this
book which also includes your story, and that is different,
(07:09):
right than the type of writing that you have done
in your training, in your professional life. So what was
what was it like to go from writing things that
are related to research and the type of writing you
doing your work to now really thinking about your own
life and the stories there you wanted to share. Yeah,
that's such a good point. It is very different. And
(07:31):
when I first started the process, I was it was
very hard for me to just let myself just be
a person and not a researcher, like not put on
the head of researcher and talk how we like to
talk as researchers. But interestingly enough, there's actually for me
it made more sense so be because if you know
(07:51):
a little bit of my background then it makes sense.
So I've always been into narratives and qualitative data. So
I've always loved a good story. And I've also always
been very critical of the objectivity that some researchers tried
to bring into into their work. And I've always questioned
that I come from a much more like critical feminist
(08:12):
kind of training, and so we always like to we
love disrupting. We just you know, love disrupting that. And
so even in my own more academic work, I always
disrupted that and said, hey, you know, like I would
have a positionality statement about who I am as a
person and what I'm researching, and how like, yes that
is affected by who I am. People who don't say
(08:34):
this are also affected by who they are on what
they're studying. Just because I'm saying it don't make it
more biased. It just makes me more transparent and and honest,
you know. And so I've always approached my work that way,
you know, in the academic setting. So switching to this
wasn't too too difficult once I let myself tell my
own story, because I also was very good at telling
(08:57):
somebody else's narrative and other people's we also has you know,
there's some power dynamics there as the researcher coming into
a setting and asking to be you know, to interview
folks and giving the opportunity for people to say no, Like,
who's really gonna say no when there's this authority figure
coming into your setting, right, Like, it's very rare unless
(09:18):
you're very privileged, wealthy people. They're the least understudied because
they know they're right that part. Yeah, yeah, but you know,
I've always focused on first gen, low income background students
as my participant, you know, the people that I interview
basically for my stories, whether qualitative quantitative stories and so um. Yeah,
(09:40):
it wasn't a really big jump in that way, but
it was in terms of letting myself share with you
all a part of my journey, especially the parts that
are very just have been very very like sad and
hard to get through and to process. Um. And so
it took a lot of therapy to just to be honest,
(10:03):
to just be all right with that, you know, and
and to also know the boundaries that I did want
to have around. Okay, this is what, this is, how
I'm going to share this and the way that I
want to share it without violating like my own boundaries
about my own personhood and what I feel like I
need to keep to myself. Yeah, and I want to
ask a follow up question about that, because the last
(10:24):
time you and I saw each other in person, we
were talking about this, because I always have lots of
curiosities around how people process this when they're writing books,
especially books that are personal. You and I were talking
about this because you know, obviously, let's say in your life,
a hundred things have happened. Well, now you're writing a book,
and you're having to decide of these hundred things that
have happened to me, some of which are really great
(10:46):
and helped form who I am, some of which were
terrible and are things that you may still be healing from.
It's like you now are staring at these hundred things
and having to decide what of this am I ready
to talk about or write about in a public setting.
What of this is to private or personal for various
(11:06):
reasons and should not go in the book. So how
was your process in deciding here are the parts of
my story that I feel comfortable to take here to
this thing. Like I think that what was scariest to
me as an author is like here and I write
a thing that just exists forever, somewhere, just somewhere. It's
(11:30):
not a blog. Even these podcast episodes, y'all, it's like
those of us who are podcasters, if we decide all
of this goes off the internet, we have control over that.
But a book made me feel like here in is
a thing that's just on a tablet somewhere. Some when
I'm an ancestor, some people are gonna find this book. Maybe.
(11:51):
So what was your process in deciding here's what I'm
ready to share, Here's what I know I want to
just hold and keep to myself. Yeah. I also feel
like this is why people write multiple books, because when
you first write a book, you're like, Okay, that was me,
but that's not me no more. Like we grow, we
are you know, we're still growing, We're still you know,
(12:12):
um doing different things. Have healed from some of the
stuff I talked about. Like one of the things that
I think people, um, I feel like was very private
that I share is about my sexual abuse. And I'm like,
oh no, girl, I've been dealing with that since I
was a little kid and have processed that and I
am completely I mean, you know, to the extent that
I can, I feel healed and it is not hard
(12:33):
for me to talk about one because I know the
statistics of how many women have gone through that and
it is not a secret you know that that's happened
to me and two people like me and to like
I think, over the years, I realized the power in
talking about that more openly and how it, like giving
myself permission to talk about that, gives others who haven't
(12:56):
even like confronted that the permission to also talk about
that and so and I saw that probably most powerfully
one time when I was we were holding a workshop
to the par Pair Collective and I was sharing about
it and someone said it out loud for the first
time and they were like, when do I get to
your position when I am no longer like crumbling every
(13:20):
time I say it, you know, And I just thought, like, Wow,
that's so powerful that they were even able to like
realize that was happening and that there's and that they
saw me as an example of like, wow, it does
get better, like there might be a like a you know, um,
a chance for me to heal still or to be
in a different position with my pain. And so you know,
(13:43):
there's that. There's that that really kind of helped me
to open it. There's other things in there that people
probably thought were not a big deal that I shared
that I'm still liked I should share that, right was
that really there's there, you know, And that's the part
where I feel like, well, you know what, I just
have to accept to that, like I can't sure what
people think about what I write, and and if you
(14:03):
really don't know me fully as a person, just know
that that book is just a very small sliver of
who I am as a person. Like I am so
much more than that, right, I don't even talk about
parenting in that book, and that like for sure it's
like my life right now. So so I'm just like,
that's not even me. I don't know who that lady
was now. But one of the things too that also
(14:25):
really helped was making sure that I didn't cross the
boundary between what's my story to tell and what someone
else's story to tell. So making sure that I took
accountability for what I went through, my feelings, my thought
processes and how I understood things versus what people may
have meant slash how they're interpreting things, because I can't
(14:49):
say that that's unequivocally that like how I experienced, this
is exactly how I went down, right, Like that was
just how I was impacted and what we have happened
for me and um, and so I never wanted to
speak for other people. So like I talked about, you know,
some of my mother wounds and just my my relationship
very hostile relationship with my father and I, but I
(15:12):
never talked about like, for instance, my father I kind
of mentioned more in passing, Like I never talked about
his upbringing and how crazy his own story is, because
one is his story to tell, not mine. And also
like sure like that would have contextualized a lot of
my pain, but it was about my pain. It was
about how that moment kind of grew me and how
I learned from that. And so that's that's another thing
(15:35):
that I was very careful to make sure that I
wasn't doing and that I wasn't telling someone else's story.
I was like focusing on me and what my own process. Yeah,
(15:57):
I think that's so powerful to hear you describing because
those of us who are writers, whether that means you know,
like in your experience and my experience becoming authors, even
to people who are sort of content making in some way,
you know, there's there's a lot of conversation going on
around what we're doing with our stories, you know. And
(16:17):
I think there have been different times where, you know,
air quote, society has sort of leaned to like, oh, well,
just everything you owe the people, everything you know, everything
that's happened, you have to share it. That's your way
to help. And maybe sometimes it is. But I think
I love the balance and what you described there, that
(16:39):
there is this way to be empowered to choose what
of your story you want to share, and that your
story doesn't belong to everyone. It's something that you get
to decide if that's something you talk about at a
dinner party, if that's something that ends up in your book,
if that's something you only talk to your family about,
and the other element you brought up about the stories
(17:01):
we have that parts of that story belong to other people. Yo.
I feel that because in both of the books I've written,
I wrote about some family things and it was a
fascinating time trying to really like really be very uh
(17:21):
specific about your your story there, you know, I actually
think one of my chapters, I remember I had to
like write it the messy way first, like knowing like, oh,
I'm never going to actually put this in the public,
but I can't get down to the part I need
to say if I don't just like, yes, I gotta
(17:42):
write it all. You gotta like pee all the layers
so you could get to what you really want to
get to sometimes, Oh for sure. Okay, So I want
to take a step back to when the idea for
Chinkona came to you, and I want to talk about
this Almo, because I know that there are people listening
that have book dreams and I was one of those
people before too. And there's sort of this mystery, right
(18:04):
of like when you dream of becoming an author and
then you meet people who are authors, but you don't
always get to find out like, well, how do you
get from like oh I would love to write a
book to like now I've written one. So how did
the idea for this book arrive to you? When did
it start germinating that you were kind of getting this
is what I want to write about? Mm hmm. Honestly,
(18:27):
I feel like it's been germinating for a really long time.
It was also a very spiritual process for me, um
in that I was kind of like I'm good, I
don't need to write a book. Come on, God, stop
trying to make me write a book, you know, or
like divine entity out there, like why are you putting
these thoughts of my mind? I don't I don't want
this for me, you know, like for a really long time,
(18:49):
it really felt like a struggle with the divine where
I was like, no, I'm not going to talk about
my story, like no one wants to hear that. I
don't want to tell people about that. And then the
other part of me was just like no, you you know,
like this kind of intuition like no, you need to
tell the story, like almost like a more like a
divine kind of intuition of like no, this story has
to be told. I will not leave you alone until
(19:12):
you tell this story. And I know that sounds I
know that sounds crazy, y'all, So I want to step
back for a second and yes, acknowledge that does on
a little cookie. But was what was even like it
just solidified it for me was that there was this
one specific week it was like probably about a year
before I finally started writing down and like actually getting
(19:34):
down to it, like maybe three different people told me, like,
you need to write a book. Like, first of all,
I've heard that for a while, like growing up, Like
you need to write a book. Um. I don't know
if they were like that was their way of telling
me like you got too much to say that time
for you go write a book, or if it was
like there will be like dude, you like love to
storytell go do that somewhere else, you know, or like
(19:55):
be real good at that or whatever. I don't know why,
but people have approached me and had told me like,
need to write a book. But there was a specific
year right before COVID where it was becoming really loud.
Everyone and anywhere would tell me like have you written
a book? Like I feel like this could be a book.
And I was just like, whatever divine entities out there
trying to give me these messages review, get out of here.
(20:20):
I'm not gonna do that. But then it got so
real when one of my um one of my therapists
who had told me that too. But that was some
of the people that had told me that. I was like, yo,
I don't even I don't not only think you should
write a book, I am going to pay you to
write a book, Like I will give you money to
publish a book, because if I had your story, it
(20:40):
would make my job easier. Like I could forward this book.
I could share this book with those folks that I
feel that way, that I think they're the only ones
this way or that like have that type of history
and experience as a first gen you know, immigrant background
community kind of you know, coming from that kind of community.
If I could just have something to give them to
be like, no, you're not the only one. And that
(21:03):
felt real to me, Like I think at that time
when when when they actually were like I'm gonna give
you money for this, I was like, oh, this is real,
Like okay, now I'm tuning into the divine and be
like all right, all right, I see, let's see this
is really going to happen. Okay. I got really excited
about it and decided to talk to like my own
network of support, you know, like Jason, my partner, who
(21:23):
had also was thinking of writing a book or maybe
had already written his by then, um and asked him
for support. He was like, oh no, girl, we don't
get you somebody. That's because we were thinking of maybe
getting self published and they were like, no, somebody's gonna
pay you for this book. One of the biggest lessons
was that it's impossible to write a book as a
woman of color with kids, was a mom without a
(21:47):
really strong support system, Like, it's just hard because we
just have so much going on. Um, I don't have
like I'm not a trust baby, so I couldn't just
take my money. You know that is making money to
go off somewhere and and write a book. Right that
(22:07):
part part you didn't you don't have the cabin you
don't have the extra cabinet. Wow, what a time. Yeah,
I know I don't have that bote sadly. Um so yeah,
I was like, Okay, this is gonna be hard, but
I'm gonna do it. I literally was so inspired by
Gloria and Saldua. She made it. You know, she's one
(22:27):
of the people that I've talked about the books and
and some of the things that she talks about not
in the works, but when she's directing to like women
of color, who right, and they're just like, you have
to like like you like the world is set against
you writing from the gift because there's just so much
going on, so much things that like politically socially, like
(22:50):
in your families, that we'll get in the way of that.
And but it's going to be a gift. Like I
just remember having this thought of like it's going to
be a gift, Like she just gave me so much
life and like being a writer. Um. And then I
read somebody else's book too that was really helpful for
my writing process, the same woman that wrote Eat Love Prey,
(23:13):
Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah, she has a book on writing and
she talks about how you have to treat writing like
your secret lover that you really want to see every
single day. You got to be real, real, sneaky, your
husband don't find out. And I was like, okay, okay,
(23:36):
is this problematic, but I can But I like it's
like okay, because you know, there's gonna be a lot
of work thought into like getting sneaky like that. And
I was like, so I was like, okay, I think
I can. I can do that then, you know, and
someone actually recommended that book while I was in my
writing process, and I mean that that's my community. That's
(23:59):
the people that really believed in me during that time.
We're pouring into me. We're like, yes, you got this,
here's a meal, here's my extra room for the weekend.
Like little things like that that as a mom, like
for me, I needed quiet and silence because I don't
get that as much in my home environment, not because
it's crazy, but because you know, we're busy kids, very
(24:22):
full time job, etcetera. And so that was probably how
my book, I would say that was definitely how my
book happened. Actually, the support that I got and this
nagging feeling that I think was a divine kind of
intervention of me, like you need to write this book
for not for you, for the people that might need
to hear that. Yeah, man, what you said about the
(24:45):
support system is so powerful because writing is lonely. It
can be lonely as far as when you finally have
to get in there by yourself and actually type or
rite or whatever your process is to get the words out.
And if you feel alone, it's like it's already going
(25:05):
to be lonely. You know that's true. But if you
feel alone in the sense of not having the people
around you, that are rooting for you, that are actually
tangibly supporting you in some ways. I mean, you know,
so I think that's such a wonderful note. For those
of you that are interested in book writing or writing
longer projects, you know, think about who are those people
(25:27):
in your life that can babysit? If you have children
that can take your pets out, you know, and handle that,
that can bring you food, so all you have to
do a certain day, however many hours you have. You know,
like you said, we're not of the people who I
know some writers are like, oh, if you know, every
(25:47):
writer needs a cabin. I'm like, who has a cabin?
Who has a separate house? More money for that? What
do you mean? To find some other ways to do this?
That was my other motivation for writing my book. I've
always been a big personal development, self care, self help
(26:07):
book reader because of my own issues that have had
and you know that I've grown from and and I
just remember reading things and I was just like, what,
I don't I don't understand your life experience in general,
Like what do you mean you know, doing these things
like going to your grandparents cabin by the lake? I
(26:29):
don't understand that. So so like the personal like experiences
that some of these amazing writers by the way, who
I've learned so much from, like personally, um, I just
couldn't relate to, and I just wish there was a
story that I could relate to. And that's kind of
what really pumped at me to also be very honest
about my own story, because I wanted others to see
(26:50):
that themselves reflected in my story and that we are
so different, right, like, we can't get tired of telling
the different ways that we have been able to find
joy and healing in this lifetime. Because for every person
that says that, there's someone that doesn't understand that perspective,
somebody else. And so that was really like my I
(27:12):
guess even like my grounding model through it all, like
just my why, like why I was going to do this?
I love it? Okay, describe a Chingona. What's she like?
A Chingona is a badass. She understands that no matter
how scary it is to heal herself and how lonely
(27:34):
it might be, that she needs to go through that
because it is a way of her ancestors, in a
way that her ancestors were able to survive, and it
is a way forward in that it gives her community
and her own descendants that ability to see hope despite
the violence that I'd be surrounding her, despite colonialism and
(27:58):
all of its effects, She's still is this. You can
throw all that. So that's what goings to me. She's
she's just out here breaking generational cycle, sometimes taking an
antidead presence, you know what I'm saying, like sometimes to
me that and also be you know, looking at some
metaphysical kinds of dying, and that's her own ancestors as
a fuel and and just fire for her to keep going.
(28:18):
And so I left. I think women in general arching
going us because there's just so much that we do.
We bring life to this world, not just physically, but
like I think emotionally and communally, Like we just we're
out here, were involved, we try to be to to
to walk along each other and support one another in
(28:40):
those dark times. And I just think that's beautiful. That's
a part of womanhood that I really, really I was
able to finally see and participate in after many years
of I think as a woman of color growing up,
like feeling like I had to be at odds with
other women or just fighting other women in and realizing like, no,
(29:02):
that's all just patriarchal violence on our bodies, like stop that,
you know. So it's just yeah, I've I read this
book now, Like I go back and read my book
and I'm just like, dang, okay, all right, lady, I
wish I had that energy right now. When I was
reading this book. I was in that real I was
(29:23):
in that real, beautiful pocket, I really believing my own stuff.
So I was like, dang, that's it's powerful, Like reading
back now and being like yeah, I need that today, right,
like like yes, this but to yourself. I like that.
I love the theme of reclamation that happens us so
much throughout this book. Alma, and you are specifically reclaiming
(29:46):
the term chingona because you write in your book, how
chingona if that is said to you in your culture,
that that was a negative thing to hear. So why
was it important to you to reclaim the term chingona? Yeah,
so chinguona was often a term used to really silence
women in my family. It was a way to say,
(30:08):
sit down, be quiet, no one wants to hear what
you gotta say. And it was really a very I
grew up in a very much is the household. So
that explains a lot of who I am. I know,
I'm not a surprise there. But chingona, when you know,
that term when directed at my male counterparts, chingon was
always said with such like pride and adoration for that person,
(30:32):
And I was like, I want that, Like what's that about?
You know? And it wasn't until I grew up and
I realized the history of Chinguona and the working going
in general, that I was like, Wow, isn't this interesting? Everybody?
Like it was actually a term, a derogatory term used
for the Machica children, so the you know, the half indigenous,
(30:55):
half Spanish children, the raped women. Wow, and not and
not only Mexico but in you know, in Central America.
And because of that, I really it just broke my
heart that like there was so much just ignorance about
(31:16):
even like the history of it and how we use
it and how and you know, so biased Lee and
then also or how you know it was used very
bias Lee, and then also how it just was really
meant to be like this way to just otherwise these
children and as like unwanted not you know, like not
really um um, you know, almost like the word bastard
(31:37):
in English, and it's kind of a dated term as well,
but you know, just that that feeling of like you
don't belong, you know, your fatherless child, like you're not
claimed as a person. And I think over the years
I ended up, I started to see the reclaiming of
the term by different women of color Latinas across the
world and from different backgrounds, you know, and I realized, like,
(31:59):
this is a using you know, it's like an amazing
way to like for ourselves kind of say like, no,
you know, we can also be the more the part
of chingana that that you know, we we've reclaimed to
really mean more of like badass, something to be to
be proud of, to feel that you're like, you know,
admired that chingana is admired, you know, because they're seen
(32:21):
as this almost like you know, these like older women
or maybe a little you know, just women that are
really coming into their own whether old or not is
what I'm trying to say. So it just became more
of a way of saying like, wow, that person is
really like stepping into their own, you know, and the
fact that that couldn't be captured in this world that
used to be something crazy. I was just like it
(32:43):
just really really moved me. And that part of that
was like, yeah, how do we claim that part, you know,
and how do we reclaim ourselves? And that's what this
book is about. It's really about reclaiming my own identity
as in just from trauma from intergenerational like violence and
the things that I grew up kind of witnessing and
(33:05):
wanting a term to capture that to say like we
could really make this means something different. And so now
it's you know, it's obviously reclaimed. It's also still very
um unpopular and in some ways. Um there's some folks
that have told me that actually here in l A
they wanted me to come talk about my book, but
(33:28):
that there's been some criticism about the term and how
it's like a bad word because some because it is
like teaching God like in many Latin cultures means to
f word, you know, and so and so there's that
connotation because of the history of the world. That's what
it was used for, because it was about I think,
these raping these women, you know, and so it's that
(33:50):
there's that connotation. And so I tend to notice that
a lot of folks from more middle to higher income
like Latinos are very like, I don't like this word,
you know, the kind of have feelings strugger feelings about
the bird. But I grew up, like I said, we
I grew up hearing this word all the all the time.
And I don't know if that was part of my
(34:10):
own positionality as a you know, working class background, you
know women that maybe to me it wasn't that big
a deal. I mean, cussing in general isn't that big
a deal. So there's that, But I can see why
some people are very uncomfortable by that, right, Yeah, No,
it's good to it's I think it's just interesting, especially
(34:31):
talking with other folks of color and from our own backgrounds.
The things that we discover to reclaim, I think is
so powerful because there's a lot of our histories due
to colonization and other as sundry racism and things that
were stolen away, taken away from us, we were made
(34:54):
to look at those things in a certain way instead
of be able to reclaim some things. Is so empowering.
So I was I was very interested to hear you
talk more about that. Um, I love it. I want
to ask a very important question, which is were there
certain snacks that you needed while you were writing this,
because I really need to know about the snacks where
you were you a snack person while writing or not
(35:17):
so much. I was definitely snacking. I don't know that
it's a snack. It's actually a whole food meal that
I would compact. But I really love type food, um one.
I feel like they they gets down with their chilies,
like I respect that. I respect that, and so I
(35:45):
remember when I would go on like my writing retreats
which were really near, like an Airbnb for the weekend
or things like that. Um, I could not wait to
not only get type food, but like not have to
share with anyone, and also get whatever I wanted because
it's for me, that's for the family, from my partner.
(36:07):
That's it. I really now that we're talking about this, Alma,
I really want to encourage any women who are listening,
even if you're not writing a book, tell the people
in your life you are, so that you too can
get access to some Airbnb, some hotel room out there
and just order some food for yourself that you don't
(36:28):
have to share with nobody, Like I feel like that's
that's worth them thinking that they could be asking you
could take you six years to air quotes, write a book,
do whatever you have to. That's what I'm telling you. It
It could be a lifetime project, you know. And they'll
be like, but did you come up with some chapters, mama,
And you'd be like, don't worry about the mind your business.
I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. Yes, okay, So
(36:48):
it was it's high food for you. Did you have
a particular dish that is like your dish or you
just like whatever's on this menu. I'm here for it. No, No,
I definitely have one. So papaya slid if you've ever had, so,
that's it. That's it. So good. Um, I like anything
with a good noodle in there, So I getting anything
(37:10):
noodle with my papaya salad and their chicken. I never
say a right, satie. I'm sure that I'm also not
saying it right. Whoever's listening, you know what we're talking about.
And it's yes, it's that orange chicken. Yes, delicious. It's
not orange chicken. It's like chicken breast on a stick
(37:31):
that has like some kind of peanut sauce on a stick.
So good. But I concur with you about women just
in general needing their own time away. I have motivated
some of my friends and close acquaintances that are not
writing no book, go go away for a weekend and
(37:53):
do you and just eat your food and nourish yourself
and just treat yourself. You know that we can and
oh my gosh, that's to me. That's self care. Listen,
you can miss me with the massage. I will want
some time alone and some good food. That's period. I
have a couple of friends whose partners are like, when
(38:13):
is that person birthday? Their partner be like, don't worry,
I got it. And it's like, it's a hotel. I'm
gonna take you there and drop you off. We're gonna
take you to dinner for your birthday. We'll take you
the next day, but your actual birthday, go to there.
Just here's a robe, order room service, get some food delivered.
(38:35):
Like that's it. I I think this is a treat
that some of us need because it's a lot of caretaking.
Some of us are entering the age where you know,
even if you may not have children, you might be
caring for elderly parents or other elderly family members. You
just have some people you was taken care of. You
need you at least twenty four hours. Get those people together,
(38:57):
Get them together, please please? Yes, okay, let me ask
you about this, Alma, and then I want you to
share with the people how they can stay in touch
with you, how they can buy five copies of Changona,
because those are the rules on her with Amina Brown.
When people come on here with books, I'm not just
suggesting they go and buy one. They buy five. That
(39:20):
way they have one, they have one as a gift,
they could take one to work. It's a lot of
options when you buy five copies at a time. But
we're gonna get to that. I want to talk about
the healing journey because you make reference to this a lot,
which I think is so powerful, because when we have
experienced trauma, when we have experienced deep pain, we think
(39:44):
sometimes that healing is a place will arrive to there,
that we'll get to this point where like oh I'm
here now, like I I no longer blank blank blank,
And really it's this constant journey. But beginning that journey
is hard, you know, when you when you're realizing, like
a painful thing has happened to me, and I don't
(40:06):
want to be stuck in that pain, but sometimes it
can feel equally as painful to begin. If you could
give thoughts to people who might read your book and
say to them, what are some things they can think
about or consider as they begin their healing journey, what
would you say? Yeah, it is definitely hard, especially for me,
(40:33):
and I talk about this in my book. Part of
my healing process was almost like my body just deciding
like nope, I don't I'm not going work anymore correctly
if you don't take care of your mind, body spirit connection,
because it's just not gonna happen. So I literally like
(40:53):
just was not physically feeling well. Um, you know, I
have different kinds of things going on in my body,
panic attacks and just like my art, my my shoulder,
and a lot of that was because I was living
so disembodied from how things that I was, you know,
something like I went through like a lot of like
(41:14):
racial like discrimination in my PhD program, and like I
talked about that too, and then before that, just different
things in my family that compounded on that, and just
how all of that just became so much for me
to like just keep going without pausing and needing like
a pause in my life. And so for me, it
was very difficult to ignore. It was very tangible, and
(41:38):
it just really kind of sat me down and I
had to deal with it. And and it was hard
because if you know anything about overachievers, when they got
to sit down for a little bit, they think the
world's gonna end. But I don't know what they think.
They just they just really worried about everything. Yeah, So
(42:00):
I was just like, I don't I don't like this,
like and and then my sensations, feelings, critical thinking brain,
you know, and then I realized, like, no, that was
just some toxic kind of negative self talk there, you know.
And so so I had to really learn all of that,
and all of that couldn't have happened if I hadn't
just giving like a big pause in my life, and
that's kind of what set me off. And absolutely after
(42:22):
I did that, it just felt like I was going
into avoid that it was getting deeper deeper, deeper deeper,
and I was just getting real scared that I was
going to get stuck there forever. And it wasn't until
I just embraced, like, no, this is just where I am,
that my compassion for myself grew and that, you know,
just all of the different ways of just even engaging
(42:44):
with oneself. It just it just grew so much that
after a while, even even if I were to go
through like a very dark, dark process like that, again,
what I have now in just in terms of healing
is really the way that my brain got reconditioned to
thinking of reacting to those things. And so two years
(43:04):
of just feeling like when am I going to stop crying?
You know, I was like very depressed season just feeling
like just very unreachable almost, And and really what I
learned from that was just like I needed to look
to go through that to find the self compassion to
then be able to move forward, because I couldn't until
I just allowed it, you know. And so it was
(43:26):
one of the biggest lessons even just going through that
really dark time, because the process itself is teaching you things,
which is something that I didn't realize before going into it.
I was resisting because I was like, that sounds like
a big waste of time and I want to do
all that, Like can we just skip to the part
where everything's cool again? And I was like, no, you
(43:46):
kind of have to go through those things to learn
some of these like harder lessons in life and and now,
of course I'm super grateful for that, but when you're
in it, it's so hard. I I think that it
it would have been, you know, catastrophic if I hadn't
had people around me that were noticing and trying to
(44:08):
support me in that process. I mean, I surrounded myself
with the support group and therapy and you know, antidepressants
at one point, because sometimes you just need that extra help,
you know, and and it's okay, and and that's part
of healing. It doesn't have to feel like you're going
to be there forever. It's a it's a it's a
step towards feeling better, and eventually, depending on you know,
(44:32):
your own journey, it might be like months years later,
you don't need all of those things anymore. Like I'm
currently not on antidepressants anymore, for instance, you know, And
and but when I needed them, I needed them. And
so I think that a lot of times, to me,
that was the harder process. Accepting that I needed that
was harder for me. But actually being on it like
(44:55):
was you know, like once I was actually on it,
I was like, oh, Okay, cool, Like the world's not
catching on fire, that's cool, you know, like it just
it just it just helped my brain to start making
some healthier um neuropaths in there because I have just
been stuck for so long. And so yeah, but it
(45:15):
doesn't it doesn't take away from the fact that it
is scary. You do need support. It's hard to do
it alone. Don't do it alone, find somebody. It's it's
it's not a fun Nobody says like, oh, I can't
wait to go seeing a therapist today. Nobody likes that,
you know, nobody wants to cry, like, nobody wants to
show the deep like having that the poor group, for
me has was it was monumental just having that. So
(45:38):
one of the other things that I talked about in
my book is just this car isn't just the wound.
It's like actively healing, but it's also you know, like
a bridge to healing, like you can heal that. And
so you know, I think even having that perspective couldn't
have happened if you know, if we hadn't gone, if
I hadn't gone through like my own growth process, through
(45:59):
all of that pain, and um, I'm just excited that.
You know, when when folks go through those changes, I
feel like I learned so much from them myself, like
in a support group. The ways that they see the world,
the ways that they starting to like reimagine things. It's beautiful,
you know. And so yeah, that's it's definitely hard, though
I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not. I'm not going
to play that down at all, right, big facts, It's
(46:22):
it's a challenge people, it's a challenge, okay. But I
want to say to people who are listening, if you are,
because you can come back and be like Alma said, Nope,
it's okay, all right, I'm gonna tell you all the truth.
And I think that reading Changona is going to be
so good for folks, especially if you are a person
(46:44):
who is realizing now some of the things you may
experience in your life, and sometimes especially those of us
growing up in communities of color, there's a lot we
experience that is totally and completely trauma, but we don't
realize it is until much later, you know, we don't
have that realization that that was actually a traumatic thing
(47:04):
I experienced. It just became normalized as means of survival
and things. And I feel like there's so much you
wrote their alma that I think is going to be
so useful for folks. So if you're at that place
where you're like, um, needing to take some steps for myself,
you know, start with some material that can help you.
Changona is a wonderful resource for you to hear someone
(47:28):
else's story, to hear about how healing is a journey.
None of us have all the way gotten there. We
all just walk in hoping that we can just grow
and heal a little bit as time goes on. So
now to the important things I want to say as well.
When people want to go and buy five copies of
Chinona Alma, where where where should they go to do this?
(47:50):
If they want to follow your work, if people want
to pay Dr Almazar goes a petty, where do they
go to find more information about you to follow you?
Tell me the things? Yeah, so I am most reachable
on Instagram and so you could find me at the
(48:11):
doc ZP th h E d c ZP and I
got all the links there on how to buy my
book click on my bio. I really encourage folks to
buy it on bookshop dot org because it supports local,
your local bookstore as opposed to the cog and the
machines and all that. So you know that's one way.
(48:33):
But I'm also in all the machines and the cogs,
so if you want to buy on Amazon, I'm there too,
so you know, just get your books absolutely by five everyone,
five five, y'all can't see my fingers, but pretending five.
Five copies of Changona. Dr Alma zargoes of Petty. Thank
(48:54):
you not only for joining us in her living room,
but for taking the time that it took to tell
your story that other people can feel found and seen
when they encountered Chingan And thank you so much. Thank
you so much. That's beautiful. It makes me feel like
I really did something out here. Thank you. Arlath Amina
(49:31):
Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Solar Fit Productions
as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in
partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't
forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
Hey, everybody. Before we get into this week's episode, please
note that this episode contains brief mentions of sexual abuse.
If this topic may be triggering for you, please take
care of yourself by listening with caution or simply putting
this episode aside for another time. Oh, y'all. By the time,
(00:41):
y'all hear this, it's like a new year. It's a
new year, and I don't know, I don't know how
the people feel. You know, sometimes the new year feels nice.
Sometimes you wanted to kick rocks. I don't know. Just
know however you feel about the new year. We're here
holding space for you. And I'm excited because we are
here in the her living room with author of Chinona
(01:05):
owning your inner badass for healing and justice. Yes, people,
Dr Alma Zargo as a petty is in the building.
Thank you, Thank you. I mean, what are the vibes like?
Are you? Are you a person who wants the people
to give you Dr Almah? Because we love the respect
for the titles here. Just tell me the vibes, Dr Almah.
(01:29):
What do we want to be? Yeah? So my vibes
are for me. Leaders and people with power. I've had,
like some really interesting relationships with slash non relationships, so
and so, you know, it's it's like a really hard
topic for me, even when I teach, like in my
(01:49):
actual like university class, when I'm teaching graduate students I
teach part time at USC, I feel really weird and
gross when people call me doctor, and I think it's
big has of my past history with like authority figures
and is using and abusing their leadership. And so I
don't ever want anyone to call me doctor Alma if
(02:10):
it doesn't feel like genuine for them, you know. But
then I have people that are like, no, I want
to call you doctor Almas because it's amazing, like you're Latina,
You're out here like I want role models and you're one,
and so I'm like, cool, then let me be that
for you, you know. Yeah. So, but I'm not I'm
not picky either way. You can just call me Alma, Okay,
pretty chill about it. I like these differentiations because I'm
(02:34):
I'm for you listeners. I'm going to refer to her
as Alma today, but that means if we was in
a room and it's people there that need to pay
money to Almah, then it's doctor almah zaragos a penny.
Those are those are the vibes if people in the room,
they need to pay all the money. Now it's not Alma,
it's not a first name, it's Dr Alma. That's how
(02:57):
I feel like, when you have people in your life
that who have these types of titles, you need to
you need to hold it within in these ways. It's like,
if I'm at all my house, then okay, that's all
men and amina talking. But if we're in a work
function or some other professional setting, is doctor Zara goes
to penny to y'all, you know, because especially you know,
(03:25):
especially from my friends who are women of color, is
like sis, you know, earn't this doctorate? Like we we
want to go ahead and let the people know. And also,
and you have to tell me if you experience this,
some of my other friends who have titles like this
that they have earned, okay through their work and education,
will get in situations where white folks or men various
(03:49):
as sundry uh discriminatory people will know the title is
there and still not say it. Yes, this is a great,
great point you ring up, because this is why it's
such a really interesting kind of way thing to maneuver
for me in the classroom because the moment I tell
people like, hey, just so you know, I understand, there's like,
(04:13):
you know, there might be some weirdness with like how
power has been misused and abused within your lifetime and
why you may or may not want to call me
that or kind of have reservations. And when I give
permission this group of people that is diverse permission to
call me either doctor Almazo is a petty or or
(04:33):
just Alma. Guess who calls me alma and who feels
weird calling me doctor? Okay, the people. So I get that,
I get that, I get that, um, but I also
I think for me, the class that I teach is
also about diversity, equity and inclusion, and so part of
it is like we can bring that conversation to the
(04:55):
room and be like, oh, this is interesting. Why are
you having in such a hard time as another brown person,
let's say, calling me doctor Alma or calling me just Alma?
I mean, because that's usually who has a hard time. No,
that's because you earned your title and you know, like
I want to take you seriously and this is serious. Well,
whereas like why is it so easy for you to
just refer to me as Alma, you know, and and
(05:18):
not think about, you know, calling me doctor Alma. If
you're like someone who's a little more privileged in my classroom, Wow,
that's how That's not how I tell him. But you know,
I have those conversations like, yeah, have you noticed that, Like,
it's it was very easy for you. Have you noticed
other people it wasn't that easy for them? Okay, Like
definitely been in some rooms where I've watched women of
color have to be like it's doctor, it's doctor, it's
(05:39):
not MS, it's not mrs. It's not just my first name, Like, um,
I'm deserving to be here and worked hard for my
ship just like you did. So yeah, that's I wonder
if that's a South thing. I've never been called ms
or mrs. Like it's very rare to be called that
here in the West. That might be a South thing there.
(06:00):
For my people who are married, for for the women
in my life who are married and have a title.
That also gets strange in Southern environments because they want
to be like, oh, it's Mr. And Mrs. It is Mr.
And doctor she it's doctor. Or how about when they
just don't even address. It's like your name is, yeah,
(06:26):
I don't family of Mr so, and so like, how
about I exist to give my own name. I'm here please,
So today for our conversations listeners, it is Alma. But
if you owe Alma money, it's Dr Alma Zaza petty period. Okay, okay.
(06:47):
I want to talk about this book, Alma, because I
have so many questions for you, because as a person
who has completed post grad education this way and you've
completed this all the way up to your doctor, have
done a lot of writing, and now you've written this
book which also includes your story, and that is different,
(07:09):
right than the type of writing that you have done
in your training, in your professional life. So what was
what was it like to go from writing things that
are related to research and the type of writing you
doing your work to now really thinking about your own
life and the stories there you wanted to share. Yeah,
that's such a good point. It is very different. And
(07:31):
when I first started the process, I was it was
very hard for me to just let myself just be
a person and not a researcher, like not put on
the head of researcher and talk how we like to
talk as researchers. But interestingly enough, there's actually for me
it made more sense so be because if you know
(07:51):
a little bit of my background then it makes sense.
So I've always been into narratives and qualitative data. So
I've always loved a good story. And I've also always
been very critical of the objectivity that some researchers tried
to bring into into their work. And I've always questioned
that I come from a much more like critical feminist
(08:12):
kind of training, and so we always like to we
love disrupting. We just you know, love disrupting that. And
so even in my own more academic work, I always
disrupted that and said, hey, you know, like I would
have a positionality statement about who I am as a
person and what I'm researching, and how like, yes that
is affected by who I am. People who don't say
(08:34):
this are also affected by who they are on what
they're studying. Just because I'm saying it don't make it
more biased. It just makes me more transparent and and honest,
you know. And so I've always approached my work that way,
you know, in the academic setting. So switching to this
wasn't too too difficult once I let myself tell my
own story, because I also was very good at telling
(08:57):
somebody else's narrative and other people's we also has you know,
there's some power dynamics there as the researcher coming into
a setting and asking to be you know, to interview
folks and giving the opportunity for people to say no, Like,
who's really gonna say no when there's this authority figure
coming into your setting, right, Like, it's very rare unless
(09:18):
you're very privileged, wealthy people. They're the least understudied because
they know they're right that part. Yeah, yeah, but you know,
I've always focused on first gen, low income background students
as my participant, you know, the people that I interview
basically for my stories, whether qualitative quantitative stories and so um. Yeah,
(09:40):
it wasn't a really big jump in that way, but
it was in terms of letting myself share with you
all a part of my journey, especially the parts that
are very just have been very very like sad and
hard to get through and to process. Um. And so
it took a lot of therapy to just to be honest,
(10:03):
to just be all right with that, you know, and
and to also know the boundaries that I did want
to have around. Okay, this is what, this is, how
I'm going to share this and the way that I
want to share it without violating like my own boundaries
about my own personhood and what I feel like I
need to keep to myself. Yeah, and I want to
ask a follow up question about that, because the last
(10:24):
time you and I saw each other in person, we
were talking about this, because I always have lots of
curiosities around how people process this when they're writing books,
especially books that are personal. You and I were talking
about this because you know, obviously, let's say in your life,
a hundred things have happened. Well, now you're writing a book,
and you're having to decide of these hundred things that
have happened to me, some of which are really great
(10:46):
and helped form who I am, some of which were
terrible and are things that you may still be healing from.
It's like you now are staring at these hundred things
and having to decide what of this am I ready
to talk about or write about in a public setting.
What of this is to private or personal for various
(11:06):
reasons and should not go in the book. So how
was your process in deciding here are the parts of
my story that I feel comfortable to take here to
this thing. Like I think that what was scariest to
me as an author is like here and I write
a thing that just exists forever, somewhere, just somewhere. It's
(11:30):
not a blog. Even these podcast episodes, y'all, it's like
those of us who are podcasters, if we decide all
of this goes off the internet, we have control over that.
But a book made me feel like here in is
a thing that's just on a tablet somewhere. Some when
I'm an ancestor, some people are gonna find this book. Maybe.
(11:51):
So what was your process in deciding here's what I'm
ready to share, Here's what I know I want to
just hold and keep to myself. Yeah. I also feel
like this is why people write multiple books, because when
you first write a book, you're like, Okay, that was me,
but that's not me no more. Like we grow, we
are you know, we're still growing, We're still you know,
(12:12):
um doing different things. Have healed from some of the
stuff I talked about. Like one of the things that
I think people, um, I feel like was very private
that I share is about my sexual abuse. And I'm like,
oh no, girl, I've been dealing with that since I
was a little kid and have processed that and I
am completely I mean, you know, to the extent that
I can, I feel healed and it is not hard
(12:33):
for me to talk about one because I know the
statistics of how many women have gone through that and
it is not a secret you know that that's happened
to me and two people like me and to like
I think, over the years, I realized the power in
talking about that more openly and how it, like giving
myself permission to talk about that, gives others who haven't
(12:56):
even like confronted that the permission to also talk about
that and so and I saw that probably most powerfully
one time when I was we were holding a workshop
to the par Pair Collective and I was sharing about
it and someone said it out loud for the first
time and they were like, when do I get to
your position when I am no longer like crumbling every
(13:20):
time I say it, you know, And I just thought, like, Wow,
that's so powerful that they were even able to like
realize that was happening and that there's and that they
saw me as an example of like, wow, it does
get better, like there might be a like a you know, um,
a chance for me to heal still or to be
in a different position with my pain. And so you know,
(13:43):
there's that. There's that that really kind of helped me
to open it. There's other things in there that people
probably thought were not a big deal that I shared
that I'm still liked I should share that, right was
that really there's there, you know, And that's the part
where I feel like, well, you know what, I just
have to accept to that, like I can't sure what
people think about what I write, and and if you
(14:03):
really don't know me fully as a person, just know
that that book is just a very small sliver of
who I am as a person. Like I am so
much more than that, right, I don't even talk about
parenting in that book, and that like for sure it's
like my life right now. So so I'm just like,
that's not even me. I don't know who that lady
was now. But one of the things too that also
(14:25):
really helped was making sure that I didn't cross the
boundary between what's my story to tell and what someone
else's story to tell. So making sure that I took
accountability for what I went through, my feelings, my thought
processes and how I understood things versus what people may
have meant slash how they're interpreting things, because I can't
(14:49):
say that that's unequivocally that like how I experienced, this
is exactly how I went down, right, Like that was
just how I was impacted and what we have happened
for me and um, and so I never wanted to
speak for other people. So like I talked about, you know,
some of my mother wounds and just my my relationship
very hostile relationship with my father and I, but I
(15:12):
never talked about like, for instance, my father I kind
of mentioned more in passing, Like I never talked about
his upbringing and how crazy his own story is, because
one is his story to tell, not mine. And also
like sure like that would have contextualized a lot of
my pain, but it was about my pain. It was
about how that moment kind of grew me and how
I learned from that. And so that's that's another thing
(15:35):
that I was very careful to make sure that I
wasn't doing and that I wasn't telling someone else's story.
I was like focusing on me and what my own process. Yeah,
(15:57):
I think that's so powerful to hear you describing because
those of us who are writers, whether that means you know,
like in your experience and my experience becoming authors, even
to people who are sort of content making in some way,
you know, there's there's a lot of conversation going on
around what we're doing with our stories, you know. And
(16:17):
I think there have been different times where, you know,
air quote, society has sort of leaned to like, oh, well,
just everything you owe the people, everything you know, everything
that's happened, you have to share it. That's your way
to help. And maybe sometimes it is. But I think
I love the balance and what you described there, that
(16:39):
there is this way to be empowered to choose what
of your story you want to share, and that your
story doesn't belong to everyone. It's something that you get
to decide if that's something you talk about at a
dinner party, if that's something that ends up in your book,
if that's something you only talk to your family about,
and the other element you brought up about the stories
(17:01):
we have that parts of that story belong to other people. Yo.
I feel that because in both of the books I've written,
I wrote about some family things and it was a
fascinating time trying to really like really be very uh
(17:21):
specific about your your story there, you know, I actually
think one of my chapters, I remember I had to
like write it the messy way first, like knowing like, oh,
I'm never going to actually put this in the public,
but I can't get down to the part I need
to say if I don't just like, yes, I gotta
(17:42):
write it all. You gotta like pee all the layers
so you could get to what you really want to
get to sometimes, Oh for sure. Okay, So I want
to take a step back to when the idea for
Chinkona came to you, and I want to talk about
this Almo, because I know that there are people listening
that have book dreams and I was one of those
people before too. And there's sort of this mystery, right
(18:04):
of like when you dream of becoming an author and
then you meet people who are authors, but you don't
always get to find out like, well, how do you
get from like oh I would love to write a
book to like now I've written one. So how did
the idea for this book arrive to you? When did
it start germinating that you were kind of getting this
is what I want to write about? Mm hmm. Honestly,
(18:27):
I feel like it's been germinating for a really long time.
It was also a very spiritual process for me, um
in that I was kind of like I'm good, I
don't need to write a book. Come on, God, stop
trying to make me write a book, you know, or
like divine entity out there, like why are you putting
these thoughts of my mind? I don't I don't want
this for me, you know, like for a really long time,
(18:49):
it really felt like a struggle with the divine where
I was like, no, I'm not going to talk about
my story, like no one wants to hear that. I
don't want to tell people about that. And then the
other part of me was just like no, you you know,
like this kind of intuition like no, you need to
tell the story, like almost like a more like a
divine kind of intuition of like no, this story has
to be told. I will not leave you alone until
(19:12):
you tell this story. And I know that sounds I
know that sounds crazy, y'all, So I want to step
back for a second and yes, acknowledge that does on
a little cookie. But was what was even like it
just solidified it for me was that there was this
one specific week it was like probably about a year
before I finally started writing down and like actually getting
(19:34):
down to it, like maybe three different people told me, like,
you need to write a book. Like, first of all,
I've heard that for a while, like growing up, Like
you need to write a book. Um. I don't know
if they were like that was their way of telling
me like you got too much to say that time
for you go write a book, or if it was
like there will be like dude, you like love to
storytell go do that somewhere else, you know, or like
(19:55):
be real good at that or whatever. I don't know why,
but people have approached me and had told me like,
need to write a book. But there was a specific
year right before COVID where it was becoming really loud.
Everyone and anywhere would tell me like have you written
a book? Like I feel like this could be a book.
And I was just like, whatever divine entities out there
trying to give me these messages review, get out of here.
(20:20):
I'm not gonna do that. But then it got so
real when one of my um one of my therapists
who had told me that too. But that was some
of the people that had told me that. I was like, yo,
I don't even I don't not only think you should
write a book, I am going to pay you to
write a book, Like I will give you money to
publish a book, because if I had your story, it
(20:40):
would make my job easier. Like I could forward this book.
I could share this book with those folks that I
feel that way, that I think they're the only ones
this way or that like have that type of history
and experience as a first gen you know, immigrant background
community kind of you know, coming from that kind of community.
If I could just have something to give them to
be like, no, you're not the only one. And that
(21:03):
felt real to me, Like I think at that time
when when when they actually were like I'm gonna give
you money for this, I was like, oh, this is real,
Like okay, now I'm tuning into the divine and be
like all right, all right, I see, let's see this
is really going to happen. Okay. I got really excited
about it and decided to talk to like my own
network of support, you know, like Jason, my partner, who
(21:23):
had also was thinking of writing a book or maybe
had already written his by then, um and asked him
for support. He was like, oh no, girl, we don't
get you somebody. That's because we were thinking of maybe
getting self published and they were like, no, somebody's gonna
pay you for this book. One of the biggest lessons
was that it's impossible to write a book as a
woman of color with kids, was a mom without a
(21:47):
really strong support system, Like, it's just hard because we
just have so much going on. Um, I don't have
like I'm not a trust baby, so I couldn't just
take my money. You know that is making money to
go off somewhere and and write a book. Right that
(22:07):
part part you didn't you don't have the cabin you
don't have the extra cabinet. Wow, what a time. Yeah,
I know I don't have that bote sadly. Um so yeah,
I was like, Okay, this is gonna be hard, but
I'm gonna do it. I literally was so inspired by
Gloria and Saldua. She made it. You know, she's one
(22:27):
of the people that I've talked about the books and
and some of the things that she talks about not
in the works, but when she's directing to like women
of color, who right, and they're just like, you have
to like like you like the world is set against
you writing from the gift because there's just so much
going on, so much things that like politically socially, like
(22:50):
in your families, that we'll get in the way of that.
And but it's going to be a gift. Like I
just remember having this thought of like it's going to
be a gift, Like she just gave me so much
life and like being a writer. Um. And then I
read somebody else's book too that was really helpful for
my writing process, the same woman that wrote Eat Love Prey,
(23:13):
Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah, she has a book on writing and
she talks about how you have to treat writing like
your secret lover that you really want to see every
single day. You got to be real, real, sneaky, your
husband don't find out. And I was like, okay, okay,
(23:36):
is this problematic, but I can But I like it's
like okay, because you know, there's gonna be a lot
of work thought into like getting sneaky like that. And
I was like, so I was like, okay, I think
I can. I can do that then, you know, and
someone actually recommended that book while I was in my
writing process, and I mean that that's my community. That's
(23:59):
the people that really believed in me during that time.
We're pouring into me. We're like, yes, you got this,
here's a meal, here's my extra room for the weekend.
Like little things like that that as a mom, like
for me, I needed quiet and silence because I don't
get that as much in my home environment, not because
it's crazy, but because you know, we're busy kids, very
(24:22):
full time job, etcetera. And so that was probably how
my book, I would say that was definitely how my
book happened. Actually, the support that I got and this
nagging feeling that I think was a divine kind of
intervention of me, like you need to write this book
for not for you, for the people that might need
to hear that. Yeah, man, what you said about the
(24:45):
support system is so powerful because writing is lonely. It
can be lonely as far as when you finally have
to get in there by yourself and actually type or
rite or whatever your process is to get the words out.
And if you feel alone, it's like it's already going
(25:05):
to be lonely. You know that's true. But if you
feel alone in the sense of not having the people
around you, that are rooting for you, that are actually
tangibly supporting you in some ways. I mean, you know,
so I think that's such a wonderful note. For those
of you that are interested in book writing or writing
longer projects, you know, think about who are those people
(25:27):
in your life that can babysit? If you have children
that can take your pets out, you know, and handle that,
that can bring you food, so all you have to
do a certain day, however many hours you have. You know,
like you said, we're not of the people who I
know some writers are like, oh, if you know, every
(25:47):
writer needs a cabin. I'm like, who has a cabin?
Who has a separate house? More money for that? What
do you mean? To find some other ways to do this?
That was my other motivation for writing my book. I've
always been a big personal development, self care, self help
(26:07):
book reader because of my own issues that have had
and you know that I've grown from and and I
just remember reading things and I was just like, what,
I don't I don't understand your life experience in general,
Like what do you mean you know, doing these things
like going to your grandparents cabin by the lake? I
(26:29):
don't understand that. So so like the personal like experiences
that some of these amazing writers by the way, who
I've learned so much from, like personally, um, I just
couldn't relate to, and I just wish there was a
story that I could relate to. And that's kind of
what really pumped at me to also be very honest
about my own story, because I wanted others to see
(26:50):
that themselves reflected in my story and that we are
so different, right, like, we can't get tired of telling
the different ways that we have been able to find
joy and healing in this lifetime. Because for every person
that says that, there's someone that doesn't understand that perspective,
somebody else. And so that was really like my I
(27:12):
guess even like my grounding model through it all, like
just my why, like why I was going to do this?
I love it? Okay, describe a Chingona. What's she like?
A Chingona is a badass. She understands that no matter
how scary it is to heal herself and how lonely
(27:34):
it might be, that she needs to go through that
because it is a way of her ancestors, in a
way that her ancestors were able to survive, and it
is a way forward in that it gives her community
and her own descendants that ability to see hope despite
the violence that I'd be surrounding her, despite colonialism and
(27:58):
all of its effects, She's still is this. You can
throw all that. So that's what goings to me. She's
she's just out here breaking generational cycle, sometimes taking an
antidead presence, you know what I'm saying, like sometimes to
me that and also be you know, looking at some
metaphysical kinds of dying, and that's her own ancestors as
a fuel and and just fire for her to keep going.
(28:18):
And so I left. I think women in general arching
going us because there's just so much that we do.
We bring life to this world, not just physically, but
like I think emotionally and communally, Like we just we're
out here, were involved, we try to be to to
to walk along each other and support one another in
(28:40):
those dark times. And I just think that's beautiful. That's
a part of womanhood that I really, really I was
able to finally see and participate in after many years
of I think as a woman of color growing up,
like feeling like I had to be at odds with
other women or just fighting other women in and realizing like, no,
(29:02):
that's all just patriarchal violence on our bodies, like stop that,
you know. So it's just yeah, I've I read this
book now, Like I go back and read my book
and I'm just like, dang, okay, all right, lady, I
wish I had that energy right now. When I was
reading this book. I was in that real I was
(29:23):
in that real, beautiful pocket, I really believing my own stuff.
So I was like, dang, that's it's powerful, Like reading
back now and being like yeah, I need that today, right,
like like yes, this but to yourself. I like that.
I love the theme of reclamation that happens us so
much throughout this book. Alma, and you are specifically reclaiming
(29:46):
the term chingona because you write in your book, how
chingona if that is said to you in your culture,
that that was a negative thing to hear. So why
was it important to you to reclaim the term chingona? Yeah,
so chinguona was often a term used to really silence
women in my family. It was a way to say,
(30:08):
sit down, be quiet, no one wants to hear what
you gotta say. And it was really a very I
grew up in a very much is the household. So
that explains a lot of who I am. I know,
I'm not a surprise there. But chingona, when you know,
that term when directed at my male counterparts, chingon was
always said with such like pride and adoration for that person,
(30:32):
And I was like, I want that, Like what's that about?
You know? And it wasn't until I grew up and
I realized the history of Chinguona and the working going
in general, that I was like, Wow, isn't this interesting? Everybody?
Like it was actually a term, a derogatory term used
for the Machica children, so the you know, the half indigenous,
(30:55):
half Spanish children, the raped women. Wow, and not and
not only Mexico but in you know, in Central America.
And because of that, I really it just broke my
heart that like there was so much just ignorance about
(31:16):
even like the history of it and how we use
it and how and you know, so biased Lee and
then also or how you know it was used very
bias Lee, and then also how it just was really
meant to be like this way to just otherwise these
children and as like unwanted not you know, like not
really um um, you know, almost like the word bastard
(31:37):
in English, and it's kind of a dated term as well,
but you know, just that that feeling of like you
don't belong, you know, your fatherless child, like you're not
claimed as a person. And I think over the years
I ended up, I started to see the reclaiming of
the term by different women of color Latinas across the
world and from different backgrounds, you know, and I realized, like,
(31:59):
this is a using you know, it's like an amazing
way to like for ourselves kind of say like, no,
you know, we can also be the more the part
of chingana that that you know, we we've reclaimed to
really mean more of like badass, something to be to
be proud of, to feel that you're like, you know,
admired that chingana is admired, you know, because they're seen
(32:21):
as this almost like you know, these like older women
or maybe a little you know, just women that are
really coming into their own whether old or not is
what I'm trying to say. So it just became more
of a way of saying like, wow, that person is
really like stepping into their own, you know, and the
fact that that couldn't be captured in this world that
used to be something crazy. I was just like it
(32:43):
just really really moved me. And that part of that
was like, yeah, how do we claim that part, you know,
and how do we reclaim ourselves? And that's what this
book is about. It's really about reclaiming my own identity
as in just from trauma from intergenerational like violence and
the things that I grew up kind of witnessing and
(33:05):
wanting a term to capture that to say like we
could really make this means something different. And so now
it's you know, it's obviously reclaimed. It's also still very
um unpopular and in some ways. Um there's some folks
that have told me that actually here in l A
they wanted me to come talk about my book, but
(33:28):
that there's been some criticism about the term and how
it's like a bad word because some because it is
like teaching God like in many Latin cultures means to
f word, you know, and so and so there's that
connotation because of the history of the world. That's what
it was used for, because it was about I think,
these raping these women, you know, and so it's that
(33:50):
there's that connotation. And so I tend to notice that
a lot of folks from more middle to higher income
like Latinos are very like, I don't like this word,
you know, the kind of have feelings strugger feelings about
the bird. But I grew up, like I said, we
I grew up hearing this word all the all the time.
And I don't know if that was part of my
(34:10):
own positionality as a you know, working class background, you
know women that maybe to me it wasn't that big
a deal. I mean, cussing in general isn't that big
a deal. So there's that, But I can see why
some people are very uncomfortable by that, right, Yeah, No,
it's good to it's I think it's just interesting, especially
(34:31):
talking with other folks of color and from our own backgrounds.
The things that we discover to reclaim, I think is
so powerful because there's a lot of our histories due
to colonization and other as sundry racism and things that
were stolen away, taken away from us, we were made
(34:54):
to look at those things in a certain way instead
of be able to reclaim some things. Is so empowering.
So I was I was very interested to hear you
talk more about that. Um, I love it. I want
to ask a very important question, which is were there
certain snacks that you needed while you were writing this,
because I really need to know about the snacks where
you were you a snack person while writing or not
(35:17):
so much. I was definitely snacking. I don't know that
it's a snack. It's actually a whole food meal that
I would compact. But I really love type food, um one.
I feel like they they gets down with their chilies,
like I respect that. I respect that, and so I
(35:45):
remember when I would go on like my writing retreats
which were really near, like an Airbnb for the weekend
or things like that. Um, I could not wait to
not only get type food, but like not have to
share with anyone, and also get whatever I wanted because
it's for me, that's for the family, from my partner.
(36:07):
That's it. I really now that we're talking about this, Alma,
I really want to encourage any women who are listening,
even if you're not writing a book, tell the people
in your life you are, so that you too can
get access to some Airbnb, some hotel room out there
and just order some food for yourself that you don't
(36:28):
have to share with nobody, Like I feel like that's
that's worth them thinking that they could be asking you
could take you six years to air quotes, write a book,
do whatever you have to. That's what I'm telling you. It
It could be a lifetime project, you know. And they'll
be like, but did you come up with some chapters, mama,
And you'd be like, don't worry about the mind your business.
I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. Yes, okay, So
(36:48):
it was it's high food for you. Did you have
a particular dish that is like your dish or you
just like whatever's on this menu. I'm here for it. No, No,
I definitely have one. So papaya slid if you've ever had, so,
that's it. That's it. So good. Um, I like anything
with a good noodle in there, So I getting anything
(37:10):
noodle with my papaya salad and their chicken. I never
say a right, satie. I'm sure that I'm also not
saying it right. Whoever's listening, you know what we're talking about.
And it's yes, it's that orange chicken. Yes, delicious. It's
not orange chicken. It's like chicken breast on a stick
(37:31):
that has like some kind of peanut sauce on a stick.
So good. But I concur with you about women just
in general needing their own time away. I have motivated
some of my friends and close acquaintances that are not
writing no book, go go away for a weekend and
(37:53):
do you and just eat your food and nourish yourself
and just treat yourself. You know that we can and
oh my gosh, that's to me. That's self care. Listen,
you can miss me with the massage. I will want
some time alone and some good food. That's period. I
have a couple of friends whose partners are like, when
(38:13):
is that person birthday? Their partner be like, don't worry,
I got it. And it's like, it's a hotel. I'm
gonna take you there and drop you off. We're gonna
take you to dinner for your birthday. We'll take you
the next day, but your actual birthday, go to there.
Just here's a robe, order room service, get some food delivered.
(38:35):
Like that's it. I I think this is a treat
that some of us need because it's a lot of caretaking.
Some of us are entering the age where you know,
even if you may not have children, you might be
caring for elderly parents or other elderly family members. You
just have some people you was taken care of. You
need you at least twenty four hours. Get those people together,
(38:57):
Get them together, please please? Yes, okay, let me ask
you about this, Alma, and then I want you to
share with the people how they can stay in touch
with you, how they can buy five copies of Changona,
because those are the rules on her with Amina Brown.
When people come on here with books, I'm not just
suggesting they go and buy one. They buy five. That
(39:20):
way they have one, they have one as a gift,
they could take one to work. It's a lot of
options when you buy five copies at a time. But
we're gonna get to that. I want to talk about
the healing journey because you make reference to this a lot,
which I think is so powerful, because when we have
experienced trauma, when we have experienced deep pain, we think
(39:44):
sometimes that healing is a place will arrive to there,
that we'll get to this point where like oh I'm
here now, like I I no longer blank blank blank,
And really it's this constant journey. But beginning that journey
is hard, you know, when you when you're realizing, like
a painful thing has happened to me, and I don't
(40:06):
want to be stuck in that pain, but sometimes it
can feel equally as painful to begin. If you could
give thoughts to people who might read your book and
say to them, what are some things they can think
about or consider as they begin their healing journey, what
would you say? Yeah, it is definitely hard, especially for me,
(40:33):
and I talk about this in my book. Part of
my healing process was almost like my body just deciding
like nope, I don't I'm not going work anymore correctly
if you don't take care of your mind, body spirit connection,
because it's just not gonna happen. So I literally like
(40:53):
just was not physically feeling well. Um, you know, I
have different kinds of things going on in my body,
panic attacks and just like my art, my my shoulder,
and a lot of that was because I was living
so disembodied from how things that I was, you know,
something like I went through like a lot of like
(41:14):
racial like discrimination in my PhD program, and like I
talked about that too, and then before that, just different
things in my family that compounded on that, and just
how all of that just became so much for me
to like just keep going without pausing and needing like
a pause in my life. And so for me, it
was very difficult to ignore. It was very tangible, and
(41:38):
it just really kind of sat me down and I
had to deal with it. And and it was hard
because if you know anything about overachievers, when they got
to sit down for a little bit, they think the
world's gonna end. But I don't know what they think.
They just they just really worried about everything. Yeah, So
(42:00):
I was just like, I don't I don't like this,
like and and then my sensations, feelings, critical thinking brain,
you know, and then I realized, like, no, that was
just some toxic kind of negative self talk there, you know.
And so so I had to really learn all of that,
and all of that couldn't have happened if I hadn't
just giving like a big pause in my life, and
that's kind of what set me off. And absolutely after
(42:22):
I did that, it just felt like I was going
into avoid that it was getting deeper deeper, deeper deeper,
and I was just getting real scared that I was
going to get stuck there forever. And it wasn't until
I just embraced, like, no, this is just where I am,
that my compassion for myself grew and that, you know,
just all of the different ways of just even engaging
(42:44):
with oneself. It just it just grew so much that
after a while, even even if I were to go
through like a very dark, dark process like that, again,
what I have now in just in terms of healing
is really the way that my brain got reconditioned to
thinking of reacting to those things. And so two years
(43:04):
of just feeling like when am I going to stop crying?
You know, I was like very depressed season just feeling
like just very unreachable almost, And and really what I
learned from that was just like I needed to look
to go through that to find the self compassion to
then be able to move forward, because I couldn't until
I just allowed it, you know. And so it was
(43:26):
one of the biggest lessons even just going through that
really dark time, because the process itself is teaching you things,
which is something that I didn't realize before going into it.
I was resisting because I was like, that sounds like
a big waste of time and I want to do
all that, Like can we just skip to the part
where everything's cool again? And I was like, no, you
(43:46):
kind of have to go through those things to learn
some of these like harder lessons in life and and now,
of course I'm super grateful for that, but when you're
in it, it's so hard. I I think that it
it would have been, you know, catastrophic if I hadn't
had people around me that were noticing and trying to
(44:08):
support me in that process. I mean, I surrounded myself
with the support group and therapy and you know, antidepressants
at one point, because sometimes you just need that extra help,
you know, and and it's okay, and and that's part
of healing. It doesn't have to feel like you're going
to be there forever. It's a it's a it's a
step towards feeling better, and eventually, depending on you know,
(44:32):
your own journey, it might be like months years later,
you don't need all of those things anymore. Like I'm
currently not on antidepressants anymore, for instance, you know, And
and but when I needed them, I needed them. And
so I think that a lot of times, to me,
that was the harder process. Accepting that I needed that
was harder for me. But actually being on it like
(44:55):
was you know, like once I was actually on it,
I was like, oh, Okay, cool, Like the world's not
catching on fire, that's cool, you know, like it just
it just it just helped my brain to start making
some healthier um neuropaths in there because I have just
been stuck for so long. And so yeah, but it
(45:15):
doesn't it doesn't take away from the fact that it
is scary. You do need support. It's hard to do
it alone. Don't do it alone, find somebody. It's it's
it's not a fun Nobody says like, oh, I can't
wait to go seeing a therapist today. Nobody likes that,
you know, nobody wants to cry, like, nobody wants to
show the deep like having that the poor group, for
me has was it was monumental just having that. So
(45:38):
one of the other things that I talked about in
my book is just this car isn't just the wound.
It's like actively healing, but it's also you know, like
a bridge to healing, like you can heal that. And
so you know, I think even having that perspective couldn't
have happened if you know, if we hadn't gone, if
I hadn't gone through like my own growth process, through
(45:59):
all of that pain, and um, I'm just excited that.
You know, when when folks go through those changes, I
feel like I learned so much from them myself, like
in a support group. The ways that they see the world,
the ways that they starting to like reimagine things. It's beautiful,
you know. And so yeah, that's it's definitely hard, though
I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not. I'm not going
to play that down at all, right, big facts, It's
(46:22):
it's a challenge people, it's a challenge, okay. But I
want to say to people who are listening, if you are,
because you can come back and be like Alma said, Nope,
it's okay, all right, I'm gonna tell you all the truth.
And I think that reading Changona is going to be
so good for folks, especially if you are a person
(46:44):
who is realizing now some of the things you may
experience in your life, and sometimes especially those of us
growing up in communities of color, there's a lot we
experience that is totally and completely trauma, but we don't
realize it is until much later, you know, we don't
have that realization that that was actually a traumatic thing
(47:04):
I experienced. It just became normalized as means of survival
and things. And I feel like there's so much you
wrote their alma that I think is going to be
so useful for folks. So if you're at that place
where you're like, um, needing to take some steps for myself,
you know, start with some material that can help you.
Changona is a wonderful resource for you to hear someone
(47:28):
else's story, to hear about how healing is a journey.
None of us have all the way gotten there. We
all just walk in hoping that we can just grow
and heal a little bit as time goes on. So
now to the important things I want to say as well.
When people want to go and buy five copies of
Chinona Alma, where where where should they go to do this?
(47:50):
If they want to follow your work, if people want
to pay Dr Almazar goes a petty, where do they
go to find more information about you to follow you?
Tell me the things? Yeah, so I am most reachable
on Instagram and so you could find me at the
(48:11):
doc ZP th h E d c ZP and I
got all the links there on how to buy my
book click on my bio. I really encourage folks to
buy it on bookshop dot org because it supports local,
your local bookstore as opposed to the cog and the
machines and all that. So you know that's one way.
(48:33):
But I'm also in all the machines and the cogs,
so if you want to buy on Amazon, I'm there too,
so you know, just get your books absolutely by five everyone,
five five, y'all can't see my fingers, but pretending five.
Five copies of Changona. Dr Alma zargoes of Petty. Thank
(48:54):
you not only for joining us in her living room,
but for taking the time that it took to tell
your story that other people can feel found and seen
when they encountered Chingan And thank you so much. Thank
you so much. That's beautiful. It makes me feel like
I really did something out here. Thank you. Arlath Amina
(49:31):
Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Solar Fit Productions
as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in
partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening and don't
forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
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