May 31, 2022 • 36 mins
This week I’m excited to talk with licensed psychologist, professor, poet, and author of Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole Authentic Self. Dr. Thema shares her favorite snacks, how poetry informs her work, tips for those considering therapy and the inspiration behind her new book. For more information about Dr. Thema, visit https://drthema.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of Her
with Amina Brown. And you know, we've been a little
bit of time of me being here in the living
room with you all, just chatting you and telling y'all
my business. But I am happy to bring guests into
the living room. That's that's what the living room is
for you all. We're here, we're we're guests together, but
(00:54):
we are bringing a guest. And I am so excited, y'all.
We have with us life since psychologist, professor, poet, author,
President elect of the American Psychological Association, and author of
Homecoming Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim your whole, authentic self.
Dr Taima Bryant is here with us. Dr Tama, thank
(01:16):
you so much, Oh thank you. I love the introduction.
I can hear the poetic flow. It never goes away.
You do other things, but it never leaves you. It's
in Dr Tama. I'm so excited that you are joining us, y'all.
This book right here. Sometimes, let me tell y'all, sometimes
(01:37):
a book that can bring healing to you upsets you.
Um and those books also have their place. But sometimes
a book that can bring healing to you like you
start reading it and you already feel like you're you're
breathing a bit easier. And that's that's what your pages
felt like to me, And so I I hope as
we talk about this, Dr Tama, that folks who have
(01:59):
not gotten their copy of Homecoming can make sure that
they do, because it is it is It is a
good it is a good breath for all of us
to take. Thank you. I'm so grateful to hear that,
and that really was the intention. I think some people
have this false idea that like telling people off, we're
dismantling people is what healing looks like. And we we
(02:23):
have enough dismantling. We have enough of the violation and
the assaults. So our healing, you know, should be an
invitation to something deeper and more honoring of who we are,
even as it stretches us but still holds us. Yeah,
I love that. Now I want to start with a
(02:43):
very important question, it's very serious question that we need
to talk about, which is snacks. Dr tamers snacks. It's
very important, um could be a part of our healing journeys. Snacks.
So when I talked to our her with Amana community,
I always say to them. This podcast is sort of
my vision of what my living room has been like,
(03:04):
where my girlfriends and I gathered together and sometimes we
had enough money to chocootie board, and sometimes we just
had enough money to have some unfinished hummus that happened
to be sitting in the fridge, and my girlfriend brought
a bell pepper she had kind of cut a little
bit off of, and we just combined all the things.
(03:25):
You know, So, if you're in this situation with your
friends or your family, whoever you like to gather with,
what what's your snack that you typically bring to the space. Yes,
so first I was thinking individual snacks. So just my
regular snack by myself to myself, our owmens. I am
the almond queen. That's a good one. Green tea is
(03:50):
my soothing blanket. Uh. If I was going some way,
I'm not going to just bring all me so, but
when people love you, you could you. That's that's true,
that's true act and they would appreciate my own bag. Now,
let me ask you a quick question about these all
men's entertamer So is this is this roasted? Unsalted? Are
(04:14):
you roasted? We're not unsalted? Over here? Little flavor. I
like it. I like it, okay. And if you're in
a situation where you had to you had to bring
your snack, but also maybe other people gonna share, then
what would be the vibes? Yes, um so a snack wise,
(04:35):
I think when you said hummas, that often resonates. And
and since I've been living in California, which has been
some time, I've gotten into avocado and guacamole e, so
we could definitely roll with that as well. That's always
a good choice. I'm gonna admit Dr Tamer because I
feel like this is a safe space that um I
really don't get along with avocados, and I have a
(04:56):
few friends that they try to love me in spite
of you know, that's that's all right. I grew up
in Baltimore and Bolstpol we didn't eat avocado, So I'm
good with that. It's just it's a late arrival. It's
like if it's in like guacamole. For some reason, I
can handle it there. But my friends that like slice
it up and they just salt and pepper. Oh yeah,
(05:18):
it's new for me. But now that you say on this,
Dr Tamo, I'm wondering to myself because I live in Atlanta,
So I'm wondering to myself if a part of that
is location. Yeah, it just didn't grow up with it.
And that the avocados where you live might taste better. True,
that is true than what we're getting down here. And
really it really comes down to the seasoning too. You
(05:40):
put your shake on there, Come on, what's your shake
on there? Maybe that's what avocado needs. Maybe when I
had it it wasn't. Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad we have something, so,
Dr Cama. In addition to your work as a psychologist,
you are also a poet. I find that so wonderful
(06:01):
and fascinating and maybe it's also personal for me that
I'm a poet too. But what role has poetry played
in your work and in your life? How do you
how do you see that foundation sort of playing a
role even in what you're doing today. It's so important
because a lot of times, when we're in need of healing,
we have been silenced, right, and so our stories haven't
(06:25):
been told, they've been diluted. We've had to like read
the script of what somebody else wanted us to say.
So a part of our healing is getting my words
back right and reclaiming my voice. And so I have
used poetry to heal both personally and with clients. So
with clients, I can use it individually with people receiving
(06:48):
kind of homework assignments to write on a theme that
came up in session, or writing in session. And I've
also done poetry therapy groups where the entire they re
peutic process is centered around reading poetry, reflecting on poetry,
writing our own, and sharing our own And I can
(07:08):
remember once at a poetry coffee house in Boston where
I used to live, after I shared a piece and
it was the first time someone said to me, I
feel like I was just in therapy. And so I
think it's a wonderful vehicle to bring healing beyond the
walls of like the private practice office. And I will
even say a lot of times in poetry spaces that
(07:31):
healing voice is needed, because sometimes in open mic it
can just be like a series of like horrible experiences
with no breath and no life. And I'm glad people
are getting it out, but for those who are receiving it,
it can be some nights, depending on just who signs up,
(07:51):
it can be a dry space and so um that
combination of speaking truth but true with Brett. Oh, that
breath is so important. And I recall this about the
open mic. You could have some nights where that almost
felt like this church or sort of spiritual space, right,
(08:13):
And you could have some nights where you were kind
of like, Okay, I don't know what I need to
do when I leave here, I gotta do something else.
Southing House was like I just sat through seven terrible
things to get to that one good one, Like it's
only coffee served here? What do I do? I want
(08:33):
to talk about the journey that led to you writing
your book. And I know that we have many listeners
that have dreams in their own hearts of wanting to
write a book and having experienced book writing on on
different levels. For those of us who are authors too,
there's all this journey that leads to what people actually
(08:55):
holding their hands. You know, sometimes the title comes first,
sometimes the theme of maybe what you want to write?
What was what was the journey like that led you
to writing this book? And did you always feel in
your heart that writing books was something you wanted to do? Yes,
So I will credit the seed uh with my mom?
(09:16):
She used to get my brother and my journals very early,
like an elementary school, and you know, would encourage us
to write poetry, to write our thoughts, to write solutions
to world problems. So uh so I've been writing early
and and she is a writer, and a large part
of my professional career, you know, as a professor and
(09:37):
a researcher, has been academic writing. And academic writing is
like the opposite of poetry, right it is kept for me,
feels very restricted and very narrow. And so because I
have really a heart for community, I have always had
the desire to be able to create resources where people
(10:00):
can get the information. And it's not just like full
of jargon. You know, a lot of my prior books
are academic books that are used to train future psychologists.
So because their textbooks, they're very expensive. So I would
never even tell members of the community about them because
I'm not gonna have them pay sixty five. So to
be able to write something that most people can access
(10:23):
for twenty dollars, uh is in alignment with my values.
And um. The other piece that happened in terms of
the pathway here is I started the Homecoming podcast UM
about three years ago, and I started the podcast and
the aftermath. So I post mental health quotes on social media,
(10:45):
and people are always right asking for more information because
you know, a tweet can only be a certain number
of characters. So to deal with people having questions, I said, okay,
let me do the podcast. The podcast is like thirty
minute episode and then people write me after the episode
for the more questions. So you know, it's like I
could keep trying to email people back what at the time,
(11:07):
or I could put all this in a resource and
people could have it in their hands. And also I
was blessed that the publisher approved the audio book as
well for people who prefer to listen UM. And so
it really came from wanting to share knowledge that it
should not just be for the elite or for the wealthy. UM.
(11:31):
But you know that knowledge is power, knowledge is healing,
and so that's that's why I wrote it. Mm hmmm.
I love that. And I'm just always curious to hear
about the journey to book writing and even that you
for yourself as a writer, you've had these different genres
of experience where you've you've written poetry, you've written academic work,
(11:55):
and now writing something that is is for the people,
so to speak, you know, your hope that anyone can
access that. I love that. Uh, there's so much to
say that I loved about your book. First of all,
I personally love that there are homework sections in this
book because I didn't enjoy homework in school. But let
me tell you what I'm when I'm in a healing
(12:16):
space that that kind of question asking and having different
activities I can try to sort of process things. That
is so helpful for me. So when I saw that,
I was like, oh, I love that. You know, like
that gives you something. Sometimes you can read something and
you're you're taking it in, but especially some of what
(12:38):
is in your book that you're really walking people through
with some hard things that people may have experienced in life.
So you can even read the chapter and then at
the end of the chapter feel like, Okay, well I
don't know what to do with myself or with these
feelings or thoughts, you know, so uh, talk to us
more about what the process was of you deciding this
(12:59):
book shouldn't as have sort of traditional chapters, it should
also have these places for application. Yes, absolutely, I personally,
and then I have also witnessed and heard many people
who will say, like a podcast was moving, a sermon
was moving, a book was moving, and nothing has changed. Right.
(13:22):
It was like an emotional high that did not translate
in any way to our real lives or behavior. And
that also shows up in therapy. You know, there are
sometimes I will have clients who and I think I
even say this in the book, who hide behind the
word confused. Right. They'll keep saying I don't know, I
(13:45):
don't know, I'm confused, which is immobilizing, right. I never
have to take action as long as I say I
don't know. So people can spend years in therapy talking
about thinking about change, and here at some point we
have to either shift or be willing to tell yourself
(14:05):
the truth that I have decided to stay where I am,
you know. And I just had a client this past
week who was kind of doing that, talking in circles.
The week before, I said they were gonna change something.
This week it was back to the normal. So I said, so,
your truth is you have decided to stay, right, So
we just have to get to that, because no shift
(14:28):
is also a choosing, and it's a decision, right, So
let's own our lives. I think that importance of agency
and empowerment is important, and I'm also aware I think
the significance of the homework is some people need the steps.
I think sometimes people assume that everybody has access to
(14:51):
the same information or knows what to do. But like
you said, you can come to that and say, well
that's interesting, but what do I do with that? So
the practical part is important. It That's why kind of
my two phrases I often um strive for with it
within my work is inspiration and information. Right, So yes,
I want people to feel capable, right, feel inspired to
(15:14):
do it. But then like, now, like, what's something specific
to do? Yeah, okay, I want to talk about y'all.
I'm just here with like a thousand things, and I'm like,
I have I only have a certain amount of time
to talk to Dr Tamer y'all know, you know we're
not here but two weeks, so I can be like, anyways, girl,
what about this? What about that? Okay, but let me
(15:34):
ask you about this. One of the themes that you
talked about in the book is the idea of disconnection.
And I found that idea and the way you were,
you know, helping the reader kind of unfold what that means.
I found that idea so powerful on a lot of levels.
We are here at the time of this recording, still
currently in a pandemic, while UH sort of feeling the
(15:57):
tensions of decisions that may be made out of our control,
or decisions we have to make regarding how we still
sort of try to air quotes move forward even though
we are still currently here, right, And so it was
really a powerful idea to me because I think the
last two years of living through a pandemic um, particularly
(16:17):
speaking to those of us here in America, but really
globally as well, Right, there's a lot of disconnection that
we either discovered because of the pandemic and how that
changed and switched our lives, or the pandemic itself that experience,
whether that was our change in work, our change in
(16:38):
our family or social life, all these different ways that
affected us. So I wanted to see if you can
give a few of the signs. The rest of the
signs in the book, but I want to see if
you can give a few of the signs how can
we recognize that we may be disconnected? Because one of
the things you're talking about there in the book is
(17:00):
that we could really live our lives disconnected and not
know or not recognize really yeah, talk more absolutely, yeah,
thank you for that and for putting it in the
context of the pandemic, because I think we still really
fully haven't taken in what that means for us emotionally, psychologically,
(17:23):
the cost and the impact. And you know a lot
of people are just trying to go through the motions
or business as usual. Um, but it has been a
major disconnection, disconnection from other people, in a disconnection from ourselves.
So one of the signs that you're disconnected is when
you're numb, So when you don't feel anything one way
(17:45):
or another. Right, we see all of these deaths by
the pandemic, We see all this racial injustice, you know,
we see all of these political dynamics. If nothing moves you,
then uh, you're you're checked out. And we have all
seen people and even experienced times in our lives where
we were present but not present, and so to be
(18:08):
aware like when did I stop feeling? Right? When did
I stop feeling is one of the warning signs. Another
warning sign is when you uh remain in unfulfilling circumstances.
So when I stay on a dead end job, when
I stay in a dead relationship. It requires that back
(18:30):
check out for myself. There's no other way to do that.
And so you know, I've uh and I think I
referenced it in the book the person who was like
at a job they hated, they complained about it all
the time, and when I asked about other options, they
literally said, while I only have ten more years till retirement,
it's like ten a decade, Like you're gonna do this
(18:53):
to yourself for a decade. And you know, I say
that even with my knowledge of like poverty and assism
and all of these things. Uh, But sometimes there are options.
Sometimes sometimes we are not as stuck as we believe.
And that is also being in unfulfilling relationships where people
(19:16):
are more about counting the years and counting the joy
how we did it, And it's like, but how it
was the quality of those years was the quality of
that time. And so I would say, if you if
nothing really moves you anymore, or if you know you're
in an unfulfilling place, you're probably disconnected and in needed
(19:38):
of a homecoming. Yeah, a return. Oh, I love that.
I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of
hearing that word, especially in black community, really across diaspora. Right,
there's a lot of themes of that idea. I remember
going to funerals growing up that were referred to as
home going, right um. And then there were they're sort
(20:02):
of like you know, homecoming in my like black college experience.
And there's also church homecoming when sort of the preacher
from your mama, your grandmama church would be like, y'all,
I know y'all been out there and going to church,
come on back this one. The levels of that were
present for me too, Yes, I love you raising that
(20:26):
it's one of those like cultural winks when like Chris
Roxon's he could say the same joke and like black
people here one joke or white people here, different joke.
So it is like all of the cultural meanings of
home for us, you know, thinking of community, thinking of identity,
thinking of places of belonging, thinking of celebration, thinking about
(20:51):
the collective process. You know, as a friend of mine said,
actually I think I was. It was an interview for
a podcast. They said, you know, do you think we
need like a national homecoming? And a part of this
process is individual, but a part of it is the collective,
as well, yeah, oh I love that when you when
(21:12):
you were talking about the the dead end relationships and
how we can begin to count those by the years,
it made me think about that old and living color
sketch where it was like the older couple they would say,
but we still together. They fought and insulted each other
and all these days, but we still Maybe we don't
(21:37):
have to be That's not what's working about that, right.
It's an important question of like how we measure success,
because sometimes people are loyal to situations that are not
loyal to them, and uh, you know it can be
if my if I how I count success, it's endurance,
(22:02):
But I am enduring with something that is breaking my spirit.
You know, it's not really healthy. That's so good. I
(22:22):
want to talk a little bit about therapy, especially those
who are new to therapy or considering therapy. I know
here in this podcast Living Room Space, we've talked a
lot about the power of therapy and the process of
therapy and how it is good to be able to
remove some of our communities. We have sort of a
sense of shame if we find ourselves feeling like we
(22:45):
we need to see a professional that we are we
are beyond what our friends or our family can do
to help us. So, as a professor as well as
a psychologist, to yourself with the practice, what are the
thoughts tip advice you would give to folks who are
either new to therapy or who are sort of on
that teetering edge considering they're thinking this is something I
(23:08):
need but they feel apprehensions. What thoughts would you give
to those folks? Yeah? Absolutely, I love the question because
it is important for us to know that we are
deserving of healing space. We're deserving of spaces where we
don't have to be on, where we don't have to perform,
where we don't have to be the caretaker, where we
(23:29):
can receive and so UM. Friendship and romantic relationships and
family are all beautiful and have their place, but that
is not the same thing as working through an issue
but a trained professional UM. And so yes, get Auntie's advice,
get your sister friends advice, UM, but then also get
(23:52):
the strategies for the healing UH and the d programming
UH and the shifting of your life and the important
A couple of important things I would say One is UM,
not every therapist is the same. So the same way
you would like shop around for a university or shop
(24:13):
around for a church home. You know, you can chop
around for a therapist. So just because you go to
one session doesn't mean you all are going to hit
it off. And uh, if you don't hit it off,
to not think, oh I tried therapy, it doesn't work
because their therapists have different styles and different personalities. So
(24:34):
you just want to check in with yourself to say, like,
what was it about it that I didn't like? So
that I can know going forward? Um, and so to
be uh empowered about that that you can ask questions.
You know, think about the primary issues of the challenges
you want to work on, and then look at their
website and see do they make any reference to those things,
(24:55):
because they may be brilliant and something that's not your thing.
Right if some one is an addiction specialist and you're
coming there because you're tired of being single, they may
not have that right. Uh. You know many people are generalist,
but you want to think about what are the themes
you want to work on, asking them if they work
with people with those issues, and then uh, if demographics
(25:18):
are important to you, then you can look at that
as well, some people prefer younger, some people prefer old,
or some people have preferences around gender or sexuality or
race and ethnicity. UM And I will say, you know,
if they are not your same demographic, to be comfortable
and empowered asking them questions about that to see if
(25:41):
it can still work, because there are times that it can. Um.
You would just have to uh feel that out right,
if there is a sense of home or safety there
for you. Um. And you know, one of the things
that people often go in who have never been in
therapy the first session, they often want to say, how
(26:01):
long is it gonna take? And like how long before
am healed and transform? And you know, to that, I
would say, unless you have a therapist that's working with
a manual, we can't give you the exact number of weeks. Now.
Sometimes let's say if you go to a college counseling center,
each student is allowed eight sessions and that's it for
(26:22):
the school year. So then that's not necessarily eight sessions
then you're done. But eight sessions and you're done, that's
all they're gonna give you. Um. So there are some
approaches that are you know, like if I run a
trauma recovery group that's a set number of weeks. But
in general, if I'm working with someone individually, I can't
tell you in the beginning how long it's gonna be
(26:43):
a Part of the reason is because most of us
don't come in the first session really revealing everything. So
it continues to unpeel, some because you don't trust the
person yet, some because of shame, and some it's not
in your awareness right. Sometimes we're not thinking about it,
we didn't realize that that we're still carrying that, and
then something will happen a session that will remind you
(27:04):
of like, oh, that's just like whatever that situation is, UM,
but you want to see, like what am I gaming
from it? Do I How do I feel when I'm there,
and how do I feel when I leave? UM? And
what I do say to clients is, you know, some
sessions are harder than others, right, and it is different
(27:26):
than friendship, even for therapists. Have to make this adjustment
when I'm you know, doing training for future therapists, because
when I'm talking to a friend, if like you're upset
about something, like we're gonna stay on the phone for
hours until you're ready to hang up. Or we fall asleep,
or I'm gonna come over your house and we're gonna
be there for hours. So therapy is generally an hour,
(27:47):
which means, um, you know, we're pressing pause, and so
for some people they can feel like, but wait, like
I'm not done. It's not gonna be done today, right,
you know, it's not gonna be all all finished today,
but we're gonna press pause to reflect on what came
up in the hour. We'll continue it next time. So
that sometimes is a part people have to adjust to.
(28:09):
These are such great tips, folks. I hope that y'all
are listening to that. I know there are people listening
right now who are like, ummm, I think it's time.
I think I need you know. So I'm hoping Dr
Tama was able to give you some things to help
the process of going into therapy, especially if it's your
first time or it could be your first time in
a long time. You know that it's okay that you
(28:30):
feel those fears or those nerves and all that. All
of that is normal and good and it is possible
to find someone that feels like a good fit for you.
I love those tips you gave. I want to ask
a few Dr Taima questions. So just gonna give a slight,
a slight personal moment here. I also gravitated to your book,
(28:52):
Dr Tama because I love things that have the theme
of home. I was a kid that grew up military.
I e avarienced both branches of the military and one
childhood Air Force and Army. So I moved around a lot,
and then I grew up to be a person to
travel a lot for work. So there's a lot of that.
Just even in my creative work, that theme of sort
(29:14):
of how we how we make home, how we find home,
how we return to all those themes are always so
interesting to me. So I would love if you can
share with us what is one place or one person
who feels like home to you. Yes. Yeah, So the
example I want to give for this, I think is
so important because it disrupts like these notions of women
(29:37):
not getting along, or women being competitors or petty, or
like all of these kind of sexist myths. I have
a group called the Gathering, and it's a group of
powerful women, uh and we meet monthly, and before the
pandemic we met at my house, and since the pandemic
we meet on zoom um. But the powerful thing, uh,
(30:00):
the enriching thing about this sisterhood circle is um we
the first hour we would like eat and just kind
of cash. We catch up. In the second hour we
each give like a reflection like about five minutes. And
what it allows is that not one person is the
pouring one or not one person has to be the
(30:22):
strong one. Like everybody receives and so yes, I'm gonna
share something, but then I'm getting something from everybody else
in the circle. And uh, it's a whole piece of
iron sharpens iron. So a sisterhood circle is important where
we don't have to be on where um, I don't
(30:43):
feel the weight of like I am here carrying it all,
but really being uh peers and being sisters. And I
definitely feel home the first Sundays of of every month.
I love that. I love that. I love uh the
sense of regularity, you know. I think there's something really
(31:05):
just stabilizing about that as well as especially when I
have friends and my mom is a nurse, I have
friends who are nurses. I have I'M friends who work
in social work. I feel like, particularly when you work
in the cares sort of field or industry, you can
not have a lot of places sometimes where you can
(31:28):
go and also be poured into. And I loved that
sort of collective that there's no one person that has
to have the encouraging word to say, you know, there's
no pressure, you can just whatever your reflection is. I
love that. That like leveling of the emotional playing field
in a way. It's wonderful. Yeah, it's wonderful. I love it.
(31:50):
Now I gotta ask you about food because it's important
to me. So what food reminds you of home? So
the food that most reminds me of home is a
food I cannot eat often, and that is homemade bread.
So good? Yes, yes, just even the way it makes
(32:11):
your house smell. That's gonna say, yeah, make the way
it smells. You're automatically like, yes. Is there a particular
kind of homemade bread? Is its sour dough? Is it
multi grain? What's what's it doing there? Or is it
all the homemade bread? All of that? I see my
face all. I love that. We celebrate bread around here.
(32:36):
We love bread. It's delicious. What is one thing that
is bringing you joy right now? Dr Tama, I'm gonna
say my kids, they are such a delight and and
two very different personalities. So it's just beautiful to see
people as themselves. You know, we show up to the planet.
(32:57):
You know, it's our own little unique beings. So it's
been a it's a pleasure watching them and and getting
to know you know, they're just quirks and their spirit.
And uh, my my daughter is a mini me, very
studious and uh focused, and uh what I say to
(33:19):
people is my son came to teach me humility. He's
a firecracker. And so when I just had my daughter,
I could, uh, you know, I just would say, you know,
we'll go over here, or you know, not to talk loud.
You know, whatever you say, she's gonna do. And so
I was like, parenting, right, Parenting is a piece of cake. Right.
(33:42):
So then when my son is like sit down, sit down,
sit down, so I said, it has given me a
lot more grace and compassion for for myself and for
other parents. Uh, but yeah, I enjoy them. Oh I
love that, Dr Tama. The people are listening. The people
want to know where they can get this book so
(34:03):
that they can begin their own journeys. The people want
to know how they can stay connected to you and
your work. Where would you tell the people to go? Yes,
absolutely so. My website is Dr Tama dot com d
R t h E m A. I would encourage you
to get the Homecoming book, to listen to the Homecoming podcast,
(34:25):
which is one all major platforms. We're up to like
a hundred and forty seven episode, so go catch up.
And Uh. I am in social media, uh the most
on Twitter and Instagram. In March when the book came out,
I joined TikTok so I have love videos there. Yeah,
(34:46):
come Joey, come on, come on and stick took for
the people. Y'all cans to yourselves on TikTok to for
the people for the people. That's where the people are,
the young people aspect at least, so and get over there.
Oh I love that. Oh well, y'all, y'all remember these things.
(35:07):
But even if you don't remember, you can go to
the show notes all the links to where you can
get Homecoming, where you can connect with Dr Tamer will
make sure all the links are there. Dr Tamer, this
has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank
you for taking the time and thank you for giving
the people something that can help us along our healing journeys.
Thank you for putting that work out into the world.
(35:28):
Oh you are welcome. It's been delightful talking to you,
and I'm just grateful for the space. Many blessed things
for you and for your listeners. Her with Amina Brown
(35:51):
is produced by Matt Gowen for Solography Productions as a
part of the Seneco Women Podcast Network and partnership with
my Heart Radio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate,
and review the podcast.
Hey, everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of Her
with Amina Brown. And you know, we've been a little
bit of time of me being here in the living
room with you all, just chatting you and telling y'all
my business. But I am happy to bring guests into
the living room. That's that's what the living room is
for you all. We're here, we're we're guests together, but
(00:54):
we are bringing a guest. And I am so excited, y'all.
We have with us life since psychologist, professor, poet, author,
President elect of the American Psychological Association, and author of
Homecoming Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim your whole, authentic self.
Dr Taima Bryant is here with us. Dr Tama, thank
(01:16):
you so much, Oh thank you. I love the introduction.
I can hear the poetic flow. It never goes away.
You do other things, but it never leaves you. It's
in Dr Tama. I'm so excited that you are joining us, y'all.
This book right here. Sometimes, let me tell y'all, sometimes
(01:37):
a book that can bring healing to you upsets you.
Um and those books also have their place. But sometimes
a book that can bring healing to you like you
start reading it and you already feel like you're you're
breathing a bit easier. And that's that's what your pages
felt like to me, And so I I hope as
we talk about this, Dr Tama, that folks who have
(01:59):
not gotten their copy of Homecoming can make sure that
they do, because it is it is It is a
good it is a good breath for all of us
to take. Thank you. I'm so grateful to hear that,
and that really was the intention. I think some people
have this false idea that like telling people off, we're
dismantling people is what healing looks like. And we we
(02:23):
have enough dismantling. We have enough of the violation and
the assaults. So our healing, you know, should be an
invitation to something deeper and more honoring of who we are,
even as it stretches us but still holds us. Yeah,
I love that. Now I want to start with a
(02:43):
very important question, it's very serious question that we need
to talk about, which is snacks. Dr tamers snacks. It's
very important, um could be a part of our healing journeys. Snacks.
So when I talked to our her with Amana community,
I always say to them. This podcast is sort of
my vision of what my living room has been like,
(03:04):
where my girlfriends and I gathered together and sometimes we
had enough money to chocootie board, and sometimes we just
had enough money to have some unfinished hummus that happened
to be sitting in the fridge, and my girlfriend brought
a bell pepper she had kind of cut a little
bit off of, and we just combined all the things.
(03:25):
You know, So, if you're in this situation with your
friends or your family, whoever you like to gather with,
what what's your snack that you typically bring to the space. Yes,
so first I was thinking individual snacks. So just my
regular snack by myself to myself, our owmens. I am
the almond queen. That's a good one. Green tea is
(03:50):
my soothing blanket. Uh. If I was going some way,
I'm not going to just bring all me so, but
when people love you, you could you. That's that's true,
that's true act and they would appreciate my own bag. Now,
let me ask you a quick question about these all
men's entertamer So is this is this roasted? Unsalted? Are
(04:14):
you roasted? We're not unsalted? Over here? Little flavor. I
like it. I like it, okay. And if you're in
a situation where you had to you had to bring
your snack, but also maybe other people gonna share, then
what would be the vibes? Yes, um so a snack wise,
(04:35):
I think when you said hummas, that often resonates. And
and since I've been living in California, which has been
some time, I've gotten into avocado and guacamole e, so
we could definitely roll with that as well. That's always
a good choice. I'm gonna admit Dr Tamer because I
feel like this is a safe space that um I
really don't get along with avocados, and I have a
(04:56):
few friends that they try to love me in spite
of you know, that's that's all right. I grew up
in Baltimore and Bolstpol we didn't eat avocado, So I'm
good with that. It's just it's a late arrival. It's
like if it's in like guacamole. For some reason, I
can handle it there. But my friends that like slice
it up and they just salt and pepper. Oh yeah,
(05:18):
it's new for me. But now that you say on this,
Dr Tamo, I'm wondering to myself because I live in Atlanta,
So I'm wondering to myself if a part of that
is location. Yeah, it just didn't grow up with it.
And that the avocados where you live might taste better. True,
that is true than what we're getting down here. And
really it really comes down to the seasoning too. You
(05:40):
put your shake on there, Come on, what's your shake
on there? Maybe that's what avocado needs. Maybe when I
had it it wasn't. Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad we have something, so,
Dr Cama. In addition to your work as a psychologist,
you are also a poet. I find that so wonderful
(06:01):
and fascinating and maybe it's also personal for me that
I'm a poet too. But what role has poetry played
in your work and in your life? How do you
how do you see that foundation sort of playing a
role even in what you're doing today. It's so important
because a lot of times, when we're in need of healing,
we have been silenced, right, and so our stories haven't
(06:25):
been told, they've been diluted. We've had to like read
the script of what somebody else wanted us to say.
So a part of our healing is getting my words
back right and reclaiming my voice. And so I have
used poetry to heal both personally and with clients. So
with clients, I can use it individually with people receiving
(06:48):
kind of homework assignments to write on a theme that
came up in session, or writing in session. And I've
also done poetry therapy groups where the entire they re
peutic process is centered around reading poetry, reflecting on poetry,
writing our own, and sharing our own And I can
(07:08):
remember once at a poetry coffee house in Boston where
I used to live, after I shared a piece and
it was the first time someone said to me, I
feel like I was just in therapy. And so I
think it's a wonderful vehicle to bring healing beyond the
walls of like the private practice office. And I will
even say a lot of times in poetry spaces that
(07:31):
healing voice is needed, because sometimes in open mic it
can just be like a series of like horrible experiences
with no breath and no life. And I'm glad people
are getting it out, but for those who are receiving it,
it can be some nights, depending on just who signs up,
(07:51):
it can be a dry space and so um that
combination of speaking truth but true with Brett. Oh, that
breath is so important. And I recall this about the
open mic. You could have some nights where that almost
felt like this church or sort of spiritual space, right,
(08:13):
And you could have some nights where you were kind
of like, Okay, I don't know what I need to
do when I leave here, I gotta do something else.
Southing House was like I just sat through seven terrible
things to get to that one good one, Like it's
only coffee served here? What do I do? I want
(08:33):
to talk about the journey that led to you writing
your book. And I know that we have many listeners
that have dreams in their own hearts of wanting to
write a book and having experienced book writing on on
different levels. For those of us who are authors too,
there's all this journey that leads to what people actually
(08:55):
holding their hands. You know, sometimes the title comes first,
sometimes the theme of maybe what you want to write?
What was what was the journey like that led you
to writing this book? And did you always feel in
your heart that writing books was something you wanted to do? Yes,
So I will credit the seed uh with my mom?
(09:16):
She used to get my brother and my journals very early,
like an elementary school, and you know, would encourage us
to write poetry, to write our thoughts, to write solutions
to world problems. So uh so I've been writing early
and and she is a writer, and a large part
of my professional career, you know, as a professor and
(09:37):
a researcher, has been academic writing. And academic writing is
like the opposite of poetry, right it is kept for me,
feels very restricted and very narrow. And so because I
have really a heart for community, I have always had
the desire to be able to create resources where people
(10:00):
can get the information. And it's not just like full
of jargon. You know, a lot of my prior books
are academic books that are used to train future psychologists.
So because their textbooks, they're very expensive. So I would
never even tell members of the community about them because
I'm not gonna have them pay sixty five. So to
be able to write something that most people can access
(10:23):
for twenty dollars, uh is in alignment with my values.
And um. The other piece that happened in terms of
the pathway here is I started the Homecoming podcast UM
about three years ago, and I started the podcast and
the aftermath. So I post mental health quotes on social media,
(10:45):
and people are always right asking for more information because
you know, a tweet can only be a certain number
of characters. So to deal with people having questions, I said, okay,
let me do the podcast. The podcast is like thirty
minute episode and then people write me after the episode
for the more questions. So you know, it's like I
could keep trying to email people back what at the time,
(11:07):
or I could put all this in a resource and
people could have it in their hands. And also I
was blessed that the publisher approved the audio book as
well for people who prefer to listen UM. And so
it really came from wanting to share knowledge that it
should not just be for the elite or for the wealthy. UM.
(11:31):
But you know that knowledge is power, knowledge is healing,
and so that's that's why I wrote it. Mm hmmm.
I love that. And I'm just always curious to hear
about the journey to book writing and even that you
for yourself as a writer, you've had these different genres
of experience where you've you've written poetry, you've written academic work,
(11:55):
and now writing something that is is for the people,
so to speak, you know, your hope that anyone can
access that. I love that. Uh, there's so much to
say that I loved about your book. First of all,
I personally love that there are homework sections in this
book because I didn't enjoy homework in school. But let
me tell you what I'm when I'm in a healing
(12:16):
space that that kind of question asking and having different
activities I can try to sort of process things. That
is so helpful for me. So when I saw that,
I was like, oh, I love that. You know, like
that gives you something. Sometimes you can read something and
you're you're taking it in, but especially some of what
(12:38):
is in your book that you're really walking people through
with some hard things that people may have experienced in life.
So you can even read the chapter and then at
the end of the chapter feel like, Okay, well I
don't know what to do with myself or with these
feelings or thoughts, you know, so uh, talk to us
more about what the process was of you deciding this
(12:59):
book shouldn't as have sort of traditional chapters, it should
also have these places for application. Yes, absolutely, I personally,
and then I have also witnessed and heard many people
who will say, like a podcast was moving, a sermon
was moving, a book was moving, and nothing has changed. Right.
(13:22):
It was like an emotional high that did not translate
in any way to our real lives or behavior. And
that also shows up in therapy. You know, there are
sometimes I will have clients who and I think I
even say this in the book, who hide behind the
word confused. Right. They'll keep saying I don't know, I
(13:45):
don't know, I'm confused, which is immobilizing, right. I never
have to take action as long as I say I
don't know. So people can spend years in therapy talking
about thinking about change, and here at some point we
have to either shift or be willing to tell yourself
(14:05):
the truth that I have decided to stay where I am,
you know. And I just had a client this past
week who was kind of doing that, talking in circles.
The week before, I said they were gonna change something.
This week it was back to the normal. So I said, so,
your truth is you have decided to stay, right, So
we just have to get to that, because no shift
(14:28):
is also a choosing, and it's a decision, right, So
let's own our lives. I think that importance of agency
and empowerment is important, and I'm also aware I think
the significance of the homework is some people need the steps.
I think sometimes people assume that everybody has access to
(14:51):
the same information or knows what to do. But like
you said, you can come to that and say, well
that's interesting, but what do I do with that? So
the practical part is important. It That's why kind of
my two phrases I often um strive for with it
within my work is inspiration and information. Right, So yes,
I want people to feel capable, right, feel inspired to
(15:14):
do it. But then like, now, like, what's something specific
to do? Yeah, okay, I want to talk about y'all.
I'm just here with like a thousand things, and I'm like,
I have I only have a certain amount of time
to talk to Dr Tamer y'all know, you know we're
not here but two weeks, so I can be like, anyways, girl,
what about this? What about that? Okay, but let me
(15:34):
ask you about this. One of the themes that you
talked about in the book is the idea of disconnection.
And I found that idea and the way you were,
you know, helping the reader kind of unfold what that means.
I found that idea so powerful on a lot of levels.
We are here at the time of this recording, still
currently in a pandemic, while UH sort of feeling the
(15:57):
tensions of decisions that may be made out of our control,
or decisions we have to make regarding how we still
sort of try to air quotes move forward even though
we are still currently here, right, And so it was
really a powerful idea to me because I think the
last two years of living through a pandemic um, particularly
(16:17):
speaking to those of us here in America, but really
globally as well, Right, there's a lot of disconnection that
we either discovered because of the pandemic and how that
changed and switched our lives, or the pandemic itself that experience,
whether that was our change in work, our change in
(16:38):
our family or social life, all these different ways that
affected us. So I wanted to see if you can
give a few of the signs. The rest of the
signs in the book, but I want to see if
you can give a few of the signs how can
we recognize that we may be disconnected? Because one of
the things you're talking about there in the book is
(17:00):
that we could really live our lives disconnected and not
know or not recognize really yeah, talk more absolutely, yeah,
thank you for that and for putting it in the
context of the pandemic, because I think we still really
fully haven't taken in what that means for us emotionally, psychologically,
(17:23):
the cost and the impact. And you know a lot
of people are just trying to go through the motions
or business as usual. Um, but it has been a
major disconnection, disconnection from other people, in a disconnection from ourselves.
So one of the signs that you're disconnected is when
you're numb, So when you don't feel anything one way
(17:45):
or another. Right, we see all of these deaths by
the pandemic, We see all this racial injustice, you know,
we see all of these political dynamics. If nothing moves you,
then uh, you're you're checked out. And we have all
seen people and even experienced times in our lives where
we were present but not present, and so to be
(18:08):
aware like when did I stop feeling? Right? When did
I stop feeling is one of the warning signs. Another
warning sign is when you uh remain in unfulfilling circumstances.
So when I stay on a dead end job, when
I stay in a dead relationship. It requires that back
(18:30):
check out for myself. There's no other way to do that.
And so you know, I've uh and I think I
referenced it in the book the person who was like
at a job they hated, they complained about it all
the time, and when I asked about other options, they
literally said, while I only have ten more years till retirement,
it's like ten a decade, Like you're gonna do this
(18:53):
to yourself for a decade. And you know, I say
that even with my knowledge of like poverty and assism
and all of these things. Uh, But sometimes there are options.
Sometimes sometimes we are not as stuck as we believe.
And that is also being in unfulfilling relationships where people
(19:16):
are more about counting the years and counting the joy
how we did it, And it's like, but how it
was the quality of those years was the quality of
that time. And so I would say, if you if
nothing really moves you anymore, or if you know you're
in an unfulfilling place, you're probably disconnected and in needed
(19:38):
of a homecoming. Yeah, a return. Oh, I love that.
I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of
hearing that word, especially in black community, really across diaspora. Right,
there's a lot of themes of that idea. I remember
going to funerals growing up that were referred to as
home going, right um. And then there were they're sort
(20:02):
of like you know, homecoming in my like black college experience.
And there's also church homecoming when sort of the preacher
from your mama, your grandmama church would be like, y'all,
I know y'all been out there and going to church,
come on back this one. The levels of that were
present for me too, Yes, I love you raising that
(20:26):
it's one of those like cultural winks when like Chris
Roxon's he could say the same joke and like black
people here one joke or white people here, different joke.
So it is like all of the cultural meanings of
home for us, you know, thinking of community, thinking of identity,
thinking of places of belonging, thinking of celebration, thinking about
(20:51):
the collective process. You know, as a friend of mine said,
actually I think I was. It was an interview for
a podcast. They said, you know, do you think we
need like a national homecoming? And a part of this
process is individual, but a part of it is the collective,
as well, yeah, oh I love that when you when
(21:12):
you were talking about the the dead end relationships and
how we can begin to count those by the years,
it made me think about that old and living color
sketch where it was like the older couple they would say,
but we still together. They fought and insulted each other
and all these days, but we still Maybe we don't
(21:37):
have to be That's not what's working about that, right.
It's an important question of like how we measure success,
because sometimes people are loyal to situations that are not
loyal to them, and uh, you know it can be
if my if I how I count success, it's endurance,
(22:02):
But I am enduring with something that is breaking my spirit.
You know, it's not really healthy. That's so good. I
(22:22):
want to talk a little bit about therapy, especially those
who are new to therapy or considering therapy. I know
here in this podcast Living Room Space, we've talked a
lot about the power of therapy and the process of
therapy and how it is good to be able to
remove some of our communities. We have sort of a
sense of shame if we find ourselves feeling like we
(22:45):
we need to see a professional that we are we
are beyond what our friends or our family can do
to help us. So, as a professor as well as
a psychologist, to yourself with the practice, what are the
thoughts tip advice you would give to folks who are
either new to therapy or who are sort of on
that teetering edge considering they're thinking this is something I
(23:08):
need but they feel apprehensions. What thoughts would you give
to those folks? Yeah? Absolutely, I love the question because
it is important for us to know that we are
deserving of healing space. We're deserving of spaces where we
don't have to be on, where we don't have to perform,
where we don't have to be the caretaker, where we
(23:29):
can receive and so UM. Friendship and romantic relationships and
family are all beautiful and have their place, but that
is not the same thing as working through an issue
but a trained professional UM. And so yes, get Auntie's advice,
get your sister friends advice, UM, but then also get
(23:52):
the strategies for the healing UH and the d programming
UH and the shifting of your life and the important
A couple of important things I would say One is UM,
not every therapist is the same. So the same way
you would like shop around for a university or shop
(24:13):
around for a church home. You know, you can chop
around for a therapist. So just because you go to
one session doesn't mean you all are going to hit
it off. And uh, if you don't hit it off,
to not think, oh I tried therapy, it doesn't work
because their therapists have different styles and different personalities. So
(24:34):
you just want to check in with yourself to say, like,
what was it about it that I didn't like? So
that I can know going forward? Um, and so to
be uh empowered about that that you can ask questions.
You know, think about the primary issues of the challenges
you want to work on, and then look at their
website and see do they make any reference to those things,
(24:55):
because they may be brilliant and something that's not your thing.
Right if some one is an addiction specialist and you're
coming there because you're tired of being single, they may
not have that right. Uh. You know many people are generalist,
but you want to think about what are the themes
you want to work on, asking them if they work
with people with those issues, and then uh, if demographics
(25:18):
are important to you, then you can look at that
as well, some people prefer younger, some people prefer old,
or some people have preferences around gender or sexuality or
race and ethnicity. UM And I will say, you know,
if they are not your same demographic, to be comfortable
and empowered asking them questions about that to see if
(25:41):
it can still work, because there are times that it can. Um.
You would just have to uh feel that out right,
if there is a sense of home or safety there
for you. Um. And you know, one of the things
that people often go in who have never been in
therapy the first session, they often want to say, how
(26:01):
long is it gonna take? And like how long before
am healed and transform? And you know, to that, I
would say, unless you have a therapist that's working with
a manual, we can't give you the exact number of weeks. Now.
Sometimes let's say if you go to a college counseling center,
each student is allowed eight sessions and that's it for
(26:22):
the school year. So then that's not necessarily eight sessions
then you're done. But eight sessions and you're done, that's
all they're gonna give you. Um. So there are some
approaches that are you know, like if I run a
trauma recovery group that's a set number of weeks. But
in general, if I'm working with someone individually, I can't
tell you in the beginning how long it's gonna be
(26:43):
a Part of the reason is because most of us
don't come in the first session really revealing everything. So
it continues to unpeel, some because you don't trust the
person yet, some because of shame, and some it's not
in your awareness right. Sometimes we're not thinking about it,
we didn't realize that that we're still carrying that, and
then something will happen a session that will remind you
(27:04):
of like, oh, that's just like whatever that situation is, UM,
but you want to see, like what am I gaming
from it? Do I How do I feel when I'm there,
and how do I feel when I leave? UM? And
what I do say to clients is, you know, some
sessions are harder than others, right, and it is different
(27:26):
than friendship, even for therapists. Have to make this adjustment
when I'm you know, doing training for future therapists, because
when I'm talking to a friend, if like you're upset
about something, like we're gonna stay on the phone for
hours until you're ready to hang up. Or we fall asleep,
or I'm gonna come over your house and we're gonna
be there for hours. So therapy is generally an hour,
(27:47):
which means, um, you know, we're pressing pause, and so
for some people they can feel like, but wait, like
I'm not done. It's not gonna be done today, right,
you know, it's not gonna be all all finished today,
but we're gonna press pause to reflect on what came
up in the hour. We'll continue it next time. So
that sometimes is a part people have to adjust to.
(28:09):
These are such great tips, folks. I hope that y'all
are listening to that. I know there are people listening
right now who are like, ummm, I think it's time.
I think I need you know. So I'm hoping Dr
Tama was able to give you some things to help
the process of going into therapy, especially if it's your
first time or it could be your first time in
a long time. You know that it's okay that you
(28:30):
feel those fears or those nerves and all that. All
of that is normal and good and it is possible
to find someone that feels like a good fit for you.
I love those tips you gave. I want to ask
a few Dr Taima questions. So just gonna give a slight,
a slight personal moment here. I also gravitated to your book,
(28:52):
Dr Tama because I love things that have the theme
of home. I was a kid that grew up military.
I e avarienced both branches of the military and one
childhood Air Force and Army. So I moved around a lot,
and then I grew up to be a person to
travel a lot for work. So there's a lot of that.
Just even in my creative work, that theme of sort
(29:14):
of how we how we make home, how we find home,
how we return to all those themes are always so
interesting to me. So I would love if you can
share with us what is one place or one person
who feels like home to you. Yes. Yeah, So the
example I want to give for this, I think is
so important because it disrupts like these notions of women
(29:37):
not getting along, or women being competitors or petty, or
like all of these kind of sexist myths. I have
a group called the Gathering, and it's a group of
powerful women, uh and we meet monthly, and before the
pandemic we met at my house, and since the pandemic
we meet on zoom um. But the powerful thing, uh,
(30:00):
the enriching thing about this sisterhood circle is um we
the first hour we would like eat and just kind
of cash. We catch up. In the second hour we
each give like a reflection like about five minutes. And
what it allows is that not one person is the
pouring one or not one person has to be the
(30:22):
strong one. Like everybody receives and so yes, I'm gonna
share something, but then I'm getting something from everybody else
in the circle. And uh, it's a whole piece of
iron sharpens iron. So a sisterhood circle is important where
we don't have to be on where um, I don't
(30:43):
feel the weight of like I am here carrying it all,
but really being uh peers and being sisters. And I
definitely feel home the first Sundays of of every month.
I love that. I love that. I love uh the
sense of regularity, you know. I think there's something really
(31:05):
just stabilizing about that as well as especially when I
have friends and my mom is a nurse, I have
friends who are nurses. I have I'M friends who work
in social work. I feel like, particularly when you work
in the cares sort of field or industry, you can
not have a lot of places sometimes where you can
(31:28):
go and also be poured into. And I loved that
sort of collective that there's no one person that has
to have the encouraging word to say, you know, there's
no pressure, you can just whatever your reflection is. I
love that. That like leveling of the emotional playing field
in a way. It's wonderful. Yeah, it's wonderful. I love it.
(31:50):
Now I gotta ask you about food because it's important
to me. So what food reminds you of home? So
the food that most reminds me of home is a
food I cannot eat often, and that is homemade bread.
So good? Yes, yes, just even the way it makes
(32:11):
your house smell. That's gonna say, yeah, make the way
it smells. You're automatically like, yes. Is there a particular
kind of homemade bread? Is its sour dough? Is it
multi grain? What's what's it doing there? Or is it
all the homemade bread? All of that? I see my
face all. I love that. We celebrate bread around here.
(32:36):
We love bread. It's delicious. What is one thing that
is bringing you joy right now? Dr Tama, I'm gonna
say my kids, they are such a delight and and
two very different personalities. So it's just beautiful to see
people as themselves. You know, we show up to the planet.
(32:57):
You know, it's our own little unique beings. So it's
been a it's a pleasure watching them and and getting
to know you know, they're just quirks and their spirit.
And uh, my my daughter is a mini me, very
studious and uh focused, and uh what I say to
(33:19):
people is my son came to teach me humility. He's
a firecracker. And so when I just had my daughter,
I could, uh, you know, I just would say, you know,
we'll go over here, or you know, not to talk loud.
You know, whatever you say, she's gonna do. And so
I was like, parenting, right, Parenting is a piece of cake. Right.
(33:42):
So then when my son is like sit down, sit down,
sit down, so I said, it has given me a
lot more grace and compassion for for myself and for
other parents. Uh, but yeah, I enjoy them. Oh I
love that, Dr Tama. The people are listening. The people
want to know where they can get this book so
(34:03):
that they can begin their own journeys. The people want
to know how they can stay connected to you and
your work. Where would you tell the people to go? Yes,
absolutely so. My website is Dr Tama dot com d
R t h E m A. I would encourage you
to get the Homecoming book, to listen to the Homecoming podcast,
(34:25):
which is one all major platforms. We're up to like
a hundred and forty seven episode, so go catch up.
And Uh. I am in social media, uh the most
on Twitter and Instagram. In March when the book came out,
I joined TikTok so I have love videos there. Yeah,
(34:46):
come Joey, come on, come on and stick took for
the people. Y'all cans to yourselves on TikTok to for
the people for the people. That's where the people are,
the young people aspect at least, so and get over there.
Oh I love that. Oh well, y'all, y'all remember these things.
(35:07):
But even if you don't remember, you can go to
the show notes all the links to where you can
get Homecoming, where you can connect with Dr Tamer will
make sure all the links are there. Dr Tamer, this
has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank
you for taking the time and thank you for giving
the people something that can help us along our healing journeys.
Thank you for putting that work out into the world.
(35:28):
Oh you are welcome. It's been delightful talking to you,
and I'm just grateful for the space. Many blessed things
for you and for your listeners. Her with Amina Brown
(35:51):
is produced by Matt Gowen for Solography Productions as a
part of the Seneco Women Podcast Network and partnership with
my Heart Radio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate,
and review the podcast.
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