February 23, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, we dive into George Clooney's defense of modern journalism and how his recent comments fall flat. Clooney, who is known for his outspoken views, recently attempted to defend the state of journalism in connection with his Broadway revival of "Good Night, and Good Luck." His credibility took a hit after refusing to address President Biden's cognitive decline until the very last moment. We unpack why this contradiction undermines his stance and explore the broader implications for how celebrities and media figures engage with critical issues.
Additionally, we’re joined by dancer, filmmaker, and activist Julie Eicher to discuss her upcoming documentary, The Antidote. Julie takes us behind the scenes of her powerful project, which uncovers the dark undercurrents of the creative community and the systemic issues that stifle true artistic expression. In this candid conversation, Julie explains how exposing these flaws is essential for art to thrive and create real impact.
https://www.theantidotedocumentary.com
Subscribe to HiT's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@HollywoodinToto
Read Hollywood in Toto - https://www.hollywoodintoto.com
Lend a hand: Leave a tip! https://hollywood-in-toto.ck.page/products/hollywood-in-toto-tip-jar
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HollywoodInToto
Read: "Virtue Bombs: How Hollywood Got Woke and Lost Its Soul" https://www.amazon.com/Virtue-Bombs-Hollywood-Woke-Lost/dp/1637580991
Additionally, we’re joined by dancer, filmmaker, and activist Julie Eicher to discuss her upcoming documentary, The Antidote. Julie takes us behind the scenes of her powerful project, which uncovers the dark undercurrents of the creative community and the systemic issues that stifle true artistic expression. In this candid conversation, Julie explains how exposing these flaws is essential for art to thrive and create real impact.
https://www.theantidotedocumentary.com
Subscribe to HiT's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@HollywoodinToto
Read Hollywood in Toto - https://www.hollywoodintoto.com
Lend a hand: Leave a tip! https://hollywood-in-toto.ck.page/products/hollywood-in-toto-tip-jar
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HollywoodInToto
Read: "Virtue Bombs: How Hollywood Got Woke and Lost Its Soul" https://www.amazon.com/Virtue-Bombs-Hollywood-Woke-Lost/dp/1637580991
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week in the Hollywood and Toto Podcast, George Clooney
has the legacy Media's back, and that's a problem for
two reasons. One legacy media is corrupt and two, well,
George Clooney isn't much better. And we talked to dancer
Julie Iiker about her new project. It's a documentary called
The Antidote. And if you thought woke Hollywood went out
(00:22):
of control, wait to hear the behind the scenes stories
she's got to tell.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Hollywood and Toto Podcast. Entertainment news and reviews,
without doubt.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Woke Hollywood, narrative, free speech, free expression.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Now that's entertainment. And here's your host.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Oh Lord.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Winning film critic Christian Toto. I feel a little queasy
dunking on George Clooney. Now, I'm not crushing on the
Oscar winning actor. I'm more of a poll run man myself.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Just kidding. This is Hollywood and Toto, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But when I think about George Clooney, he just seems
to evoke old school clamor, like Hollywood back in the day.
Like I could see him fitting in with the Carried
Grants and the rock Hudsons of the world. He just
has that mistique to him. You know, there are good
looking actors like Brad Pitton. Half the time you see him,
he's got a scruffy beard or he's dressing down, and
George Clooney always looks like a movie star.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I like that, like it was the President of George
Clooney or something.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I also met him briefly during the Perfect Storm junket
back in the day, and this was before he became
a huge movie star. But he was very sweet, very engaging.
Actually caught him as he was going into his trail.
We had a nice quick conversation about the next movie
he was working on, which was Brother or Art thou
So always had a soft spot for George Clooney. He
just seems like an old school hero in the Hollywood community.
(01:50):
Also is the kind of guy who's much more talented,
and you think he does directing, he writes, he acts
obviously as well. So I don't know, I just have
a hard time just dunking on the guy like a
typical Hollywood celebrity. But I'm going to do it anyway,
because he really did bring it on himself. Now Clooney
is bringing his movie good Night and good Luck to Broadway,
which makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
One.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
He really hasn't had a big movie hit no while,
so this is a way to change gears in a way,
revisit an old classic in a sense. The movie, of course,
and the play focus on Edward R. Murrow and the
Hollywood Blacklist. Now, let's push aside the fact that there's
a new Hollywood Blacklist. This one targets conservatives. We've talked
about that a lot on this show. We will again,
(02:33):
but not today again. Want to push that aside. It's
not what I really want to focus on here. But
the play itself lets him opine about journalism.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's what you want the New York Times to hear.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And again, journalism is important. The Fourth of State matters,
for sure, and we don't have a working Fourth State
at the moment, but George Clooney seems to think we do,
and he spoke about the Fourth of State at length
during a conversation with the Late Shows even Colbert. Yeah,
the show is on the air. People do appear in
(03:06):
the show. It is part of a marketing effort. I
don't blame George Clooney for being on the show, but
every time I think about Stephen Colbert in that program,
I just the dancing vaccines just distasteful to say that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Get your shot right.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Now, Come on, people, just get the shot. That is
what he had to say about the media and about
the media's role in events like the blacklist of your
and why it matters today.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Forever we've had this issue, which is power kind of
hates the fourth estate. They hate journalism. And my father's
an anchorman and a newsman, and we've always believed in
the idea of when the other three estates, the judiciary
branch and the executive branch, and you know, when they
all fail you, you really need that fourth estate, right.
It has to be the people that can hold people
(04:01):
to account. And this is one of those. This is
a moment of us at our best. And I always
like to show and I like the idea of seeing.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Ourselves at our best.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think that's always an exciting thing to do. No
More recently, Clooney opened up about life in the show
and much more to The New York Times, and he
said this about how the media treated President Joe Biden.
He said the media dropped the ball when it came
to covering his obvious decline. You think you think they
(04:33):
dropped the ball. Of course, the bigger question is why, George,
Why did they drop the ball? You just don't drop
a ball. There's got to be a reason for it.
Did they have buttery fingers or were they corrupt to
the core and willing to do and say almost anything
to protect a Democrat. I think that's a rhetorical question.
But of course George Clooney is part of the problem here.
(04:55):
George Clooney was with President Biden last year. They attended
a fundraiser together. Each tried to use some of his
celebrity clout to make things happen, to stir up interest,
to get those coffers filled up for the president. And
at the time, of course, he realized, oh man, this
guy is a shadow of a shadow of what he
used to be. It is weekend at Bernie's writ large.
(05:17):
And George saw that, and he's not dumb, and he
kept quiet about it. He kept quiet for weeks and
weeks and weeks until two things happened. One was that
terrible presidential debate where everyone in the world finally saw
up close and personal that President Biden is not well.
And then, of course he saw the poll numbers sink
and sink and sink and sink, and all of a sudden,
(05:39):
George Clooney spoke truth to power. He went to the
pages of the New York Times and wrote an op
ed saying, Joe, It's time to go. Wasn't it time
to go when you saw him that night? Wasn't it
time to go when you realize his brain was what
my friend Joe conscious says is apple sauce. Wasn't at
the time. But no, we had to wait until the debate,
(06:00):
until the sinking poll numbers came in, and then only
then was a time to say, Joe, it's time to go.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Now.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
If I'm a patriotic American, I would be acting a
little bit quicker, like maybe the next day, and using
my clout whatever it was, to let the world know
that the president is not well.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Not old George, he hung in there.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He was a true Democratic warrior, and he didn't speak
truth to power. He didn't share the news. He didn't
alert his fellow Americans what the problem was until it
became politically convenient to do so. Not a good look, George,
trust me, you know what's easy to virtue signal, And
(06:46):
I think we all do it to a certain degree.
I think I've been guilty a time or two, maybe more,
of going on social media and doing just that. It's
much more complicated to speak up for yourself, to stand
true to your principles. And that's what Julie Iiker has
been doing for a while now. She is a professional dancer,
she's worked on Broadway, she has a lot of different credits,
and she has been pushing back against what she's seen
(07:09):
behind the scenes on Broadway in the creative community. It's
not pretty, that's for sure. And she captured some of
these moments in an upcoming documentary. It's called The Antidote,
and it looks at what's going on behind the scenes
with woke, with identity politics, with the George Floyd riots,
and the aftermath with virtue signaling, and what she's discovered
(07:31):
is something that is unfair. It's certainly throttling free expression.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It is not good for the bottom line. Of course,
Broadway has.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Been suffering a bit in recent years, and also it's
just darnright cruel, darnright cruel, and that gets exposed in
so much more in this upcoming project. So it's one
of the reasons why I wanted to have Julie on
the show to talk about her experiences, how she became
a dancer in the first place, the sacrifices that she's
made along the way, and then of course the things
that she's seen that she couldn't hold sign about much longer. Again,
(08:02):
people like Julie, people like Gina Carano, like Tyler Fisher,
when you swim against the tide, when you speak out,
when you say enough is enough. I have to speak
what I've seen. I have to share my stories. There
are repercussions. It's not easy. There is a risk involved,
and that risk means that most people who don't agree
with what's going on behind the scenes, they stay quiet.
(08:23):
They don't want to rock the boat. Well, not Julie.
She's here to rock that boat and to share her
message and to let people know what's going on behind
the scenes.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
That's why I.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Want to have her on the show to talk about
her experiences, the joy that she finds in dancing, and
where she's going next with her career and this particular project,
the Antidote. So hope you enjoy the conversation and let's
applaud people like Julie who are tough and brave and
strong and true to their word. We need them now
more than ever for sure, especially behind the scenes in Hollywood, inc.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Julie, thanks for joining the show.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I want to find out more about your documentary about
your journey in the arts, but I want to maybe
just dial things back at a little bit and find
out how you got involved in the artistic field. You know,
it's always a passion project. It's always the job your
parents that want you to do because they want you
to be a lawyer or a doctor. So how did
you get into this field and what were some early highlights.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
So I, you know, my family has always been pretty artistic.
I grew up around my you know, my grandpa, who
sang in a barbershop quartet, and you know, my sister
and I would kind of sit on the floor and
watch their rehearsals and grade them. And you know, he
played piano and my sister sang, and you know, my
dad played trumpet, and so I it was it was
(09:36):
kind of just part of the part of the family style.
And you know I was I was always in dance classes,
and when I was about, you know, to go into
middle school, I was able to get into a production
of the Nutcracker and it was so wonderful. I turned
to my mom and I was like, I think I
want to do this, and kind of from there it
(09:56):
was off to the races. And so I started off
my career in in classical ballet. I you know, I
had sort of a Hodgepodge training. There are a lot
of dancers who were able to go to one school
that really that really formed them. But I came from
a town that had a you know, like a couple
of okay studios. So I had a kind of diverse
(10:20):
array of training that I was able to pull together
to be able to work in in ballet companies for
a couple of years, which was great. But after a
little while, I felt like I needed to kind of
go where my heart really always had lived, which was
in theater. So growing up, you know, I was in
(10:41):
dance classes, but on the side singing and doing the
school musicals and you know, taking acting classes, and so,
you know, after after a time just purely purely dancing,
I realized, oh, what I really want to do is
is theater. And so it just it felt like it
was kind of in my blood and that's what propelled
(11:04):
me into you know, to move to New York and
you know, study there, train there, do the whole audition circuit,
and really like dedicate my life.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You've had a lot of success there. I'm sure there
were lean times as well, you know, having how many roommates,
you know, trying to spread the expenses around. What were
some of the harder parts of that early trek in
your career.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
So when I moved to New York, I was subletting
a girl's apartment for four hundred and fifty dollars a month.
There were five of us living in a four bedroom apartment.
And the room that I was using was it was
basically a bed, you know, you kind of opened the
door and it was it was just the bed, and
my clothes were sort of like tucked away into one drawer,
(11:50):
like in the corner. And I was able to, through friends,
get a job at a restaurant, and you know, that
was enough to cover you know, my base expenses food
and housing. But then you know, when you're a dancer
and you are, you know, trying to get a job,
you have to keep up your physical training. And so
I was also working at a studio called Steps on Broadway,
(12:13):
which has dance classes, so I was able to do
that in order to you know, get discounted classes so
I could keep up by dance training. And then I
also had to keep up vocal training because I was
sort of behind in that arena. So also on the side,
one of my friends and I swapped. I was giving
him like uncertified pilates lessons while he was giving me
(12:35):
voice lessons. We kind of did a swap because neither
of us could afford, you know, the workouts or the
vocal training. And then also on the side, I was
babysitting and this whole time, you know, you're waking up
early in the morning, and at that time, I, you know,
wasn't a part of the union, which meant that you
had to go to these cattle calls. So you're up
at four in the morning, you have to you know,
(12:57):
do your makeup, go downtown, wait in line in the
cold to maybe get a slot to audition. You get
you know, your fifteen seconds to say here I am,
and they say thank you very much, you know next,
and so it was like it was on like that
for a while, and I ended up booking my first
jobs by actually saving up money to fly to different
(13:20):
theaters around the country, like outside of New York to
you know, get jobs that were gonna you know, offer
me a little bit more money, offering a union status.
But you know, I literally saved up pennies, like stayed
in the hostels, did auditions, and then flew back.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Did your dream ever waiver?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I know this is sort of part of the process,
and many many successful people go through this.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It's just sort of what you have to do. But
did you ever have doubts or was it always this
is it?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
This is just the process that I'm gonna have to
go through this till I make it.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
It was pretty much just this is this is what
I'm doing. And I feel pretty lucky that that was
you know, pretty much my career until until twenty twenty
was I was I was laser focused. I was like,
this is what I love to do, and it was
really difficult. You know, there were there were questions about
how it would take form. You know, there was the
(14:15):
transition from classical ballet to theater. So it's sort of
a shift in the way that you know, my in
the form of my career, and kind of towards the end,
I started to become you know a little bit more interested.
You know, towards twenty twenty, I started to become more
interested in the creative process, but I didn't want to
stop dancing. It was just like what form will this take?
(14:37):
It wasn't do I want to be involved in this industry?
That was That was always, you know, whenever people would
kind of you know, drop out and say, you know,
I'm done with this, I didn't. I never really understood it,
which now you know, now I get it, But at
the time, I never really saw that as an option.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, you have a lot of cool credits.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What is the moment where you realized, not only is
this my plan my dream, I don't have an option
to do anything else, but it's working like this. It
was all worth it because I'm now here. Was it Broadway?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Was there?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
What was there a specific role performance? What's what jumps
out at you at that that kind of transition period.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
There were you know, there were a couple of shows
that were really special to me. But one of them
was an American in Paris. I you know, I got
to do this role opposite and incredibly talented actor, singer,
dancer Clyde Alves and we were in rehearsals for it,
and I was getting to dance ballet and you know,
(15:40):
sing and lead a show and speaking of French accent,
and I was like, these are all of my favorite
things just wrapped up into like one beautiful show. And
I felt like I could have done that forever. That
was the moment where I was like, I can live here,
you know, just just stick a fork in me.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Good, pinch me. This is it now.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Along this whole journey, you're also seeing some cultural changes
within the artistic community late twenty I guess twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen, nineteen, and of course so much change in
twenty twenty. You're on the ground, You're in this community.
What was happening? What were you seeing that was maybe
different than what you expected or maybe different than what
you found earlier in your career.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
So you know, perhaps perhaps some of this was ignorance,
maybe it was just you know, wide i'd optimism, but
I always kind of understood my job as an actor
to be or you know, actor, a dancer, singer or whatever,
to work as hard as I could at my craft.
And you know, if I could make myself as good
(16:45):
as possible as you know, perfected in my craft as
I could, as effective a performer as I could, then
that would lead me to success. And of course, you
know then anybody would come down to stand like the
world is more complicated than that. But what sort of
started to happen in as you said, you know, like
(17:07):
twenty sixteen seventeen were there there were just a couple
of kind of whisperings of these alternative factors that were
beginning to influence casting, that we're beginning to influence shows,
and so you know, there was there was this kind
of influx of sensitivity around race. And you know, I
(17:27):
got back from tour and then there was all of
a sudden, you know, I'm back in the audition circuit.
The show that I was doing, you know, was done,
and I realize that I'm having all these conversations with
friends that are like, oh, well, you know you're not
going to get that part because you're not this color
or you know, they're looking for that color person to
do this role. And I was like, okay, you know,
(17:48):
it's that's kind of annoying, but you're like, I, you know,
I understand the sentiment behind it. You know, we want
we want everybody to have the fair chance. We want
to right past wrongs, and.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
On paper, this is great. I mean, this is you know,
exactly more opportunity. And these weren't roles that were specifically
like a an African American character. This was just more
generically speaking.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It was just like ensemble work. You know, I was
going in for like ensembles of Broadway shows and they
were things that were not you know, culturally specific or
or looked specific. There was just this beginning of implicit
understanding that there were certain requirements that were just a
part of the casting process now and this was just
how you know, the world was, and you know, at
(18:30):
the time, I you know, was politically you know, very
far on the left and was like, yeah, you know,
all of this makes sense. It's all in good faith,
which I do think that that's you know, that's like
where all that began is, you know, with a good
faith effort to make things better. But that was kind
of the beginning of noticing that there were these other
(18:52):
factors of play besides you know, putting on a good show.
There was kind of the introduction of a politicization.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And then along the way I assumed it intensified twenty
twenty with the George Floyd protests. I imagine that was
sort of the kerosene to dump on this cultural fire,
is it or am I yeah, to hyperbolic or how
would you describe it?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
You know, it's it's a little bit. It's interesting to
you know, to kind of look back again and now
kind of understand what was sort of happening underneath the surface.
And then as you're saying, I think it really was,
you know, twenty twenty where everything sort of exploded, you know,
as I as I said, you know, I was like,
(19:35):
you know, very far to the left going into twenty twenty,
and then you know, lockdowns happened, and I, you know,
I figured out basically I saw this as a shift
in perspective and a shift in the industry. And so
my shift in perspective was basically, I I was seeing
everybody in my industry, you know, whose mantra was previously
(19:59):
the show to go on, you know, at all costs,
the show must go on. There there are these glory
these like glorious tales of actors going on despite all odds,
you know, Adina Menzela breaking a rib and going on
stage regardless, or you know, my husband has a story
of being in a show where somebody, you know, hobbles
(20:21):
on stage with a broken ankle, and everybody's so heartened
by it because there's this commitment to the thing that's
greater than any of us individually. And then all of
a sudden that stopped, and everyone said, no, we have to,
we have to the show must not go on absolutely,
and we've all got to shut down. And I, you know,
whether it was me being idiot or whatever, I I
(20:44):
wasn't scared of of COVID, and so I I didn't
want to shut down. I was like, con we can
figure out how to how to keep going, we can
figure out how to keep on, you know, keep on
doing this. And everyone around me had a different opinion.
And so this sort of was the beginning of the
shift in in my, uh my understanding of my sort
(21:09):
of difference from other maybe members of the industry, and
it sort of caused me to observe the goings on
of that next year in a different way where all
of a sudden I was able to sort of see
this this swell of group think in the industry where
like you're saying, there, they're the George Floyd protests, and
(21:31):
there are you know, just these like intense, intense social
movements that are going on, and we're living in this
little apartment on the Upper West Side literally like you know,
watching watching protests go by. We're you know, hearing everybody
banging in New York. Everybody banged pots and pans every
day outside the window for all the healthcare workers. Like
(21:53):
it was a very intense It was a very intense
time and place to be. And you know, I think
that's when this group of people who thrive in creating
things in real time and real space together, you know,
(22:14):
theater people, when all of a sudden, you know, kind
of locked away in their in their apartments alone, really
were able to kind of cling on to this movement
and banded together in a way that I think ended
up being more destructive than it was, you know, helpful.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Now, all this background, in your specific background and this
sort of collective cultural shift is obviously a part in
the driving force behind the antidote your upcoming documentary. You know,
it's one thing to have these thoughts and another to
kind of put them into a documentary form.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
What was the spark for that?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So it was sort of coming off of, you know,
of that intense time in in twenty twenty. There were
all of these really wild things that were coming out
of the theater industry. There was intense bullying of people
who didn't post a black square, and the theater industry
is very small, and so like the power of the
(23:17):
you know, the gang up is intense.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Get there, copy there?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
What is?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
How does that manifest it?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So like, just can you describe I don't know if
you faced it personally or maybe a friend or a colleague,
what what does that mean specifically? Because I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
So there are a couple of you know, iterations that
I saw. You know, I didn't post anything. I have
never really been incredibly active on social media, but I
dare you, I know exactly. But by that point I
was already like, oh, I'm not a part of this
whole movement. And I was confronted by friends and you know,
(23:52):
like reduced to tears over you know, my not having
posted the black square? How how dare you? How dare
you not support these people? You know, you don't understand
your complicity? Things like that, And I also know people
who were attacked in private messages and you know, in
(24:12):
text messages by their agents, by other members of the
industry for not posting the black square.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And again, this is not you posted something that they
found abhorrent. This is you decided not to post a
you know, a standard issue black square, right, That's all
it was. And it could be you're off social media
for the weekend, you don't post a lot. Yeah, you know,
you decided to do less less on your phone. I mean,
there could be a million reasons why you didn't. But
(24:40):
they singled people like you out for that.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Well, and that's not really what it's about. It's about
what it kind of became was this sort of bastardization
of this Broadway community, the theater community, which has historically
been this tight knit group of people that care for
each other, that are radically inclusive, that are loving, that
all do this weird job together that not a lot
(25:05):
of other people understand. You know, you're you're working with
these people, you're living with these people, you're traveling with
these people, you see each other in all these different jobs.
It's a really it's a different way of life. And
so the I think operationally, once once this political expectation
got introduced, it became if you're not with us, you're
(25:29):
against us in a very extreme way.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Wow. Yeah, So all this is obviously great fodder for
a documentary and something that people should see and learn
more about. So talk about the process of getting this
underway and maybe more specifically the focus or the sort
of the pockets of focus within the documentary.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Yeah. Yeah, So again, you know, like kind of coming
up with this the there was all this kind of
crazy documentation coming in from from the theater community. There
were there was a Dear White American Theater you know
post that was that was blasted out, signed by you know,
all these big wigs in the industry. There were all
these shifts in the way that content was being policed
(26:10):
and and changed, and there were all of these articles
that were coming out on Playbill and Broadway dot Com
that we're talking about how, you know, Miss Saigon was
racist and uh Lahoya Playhouse is going to do the
gender queer version of as you Like It and all
these things that I, you know, by this point, thought
(26:31):
like that's crazy. And there had also been some really
extreme cancelations within the theater industry, and I myself had
like a little little run in with cancel culture and
just you know, felt like I had something to say
about this, and it was really clear to me that
(26:51):
everything that was going on within this community was kind
of this perfect microcosm of everything that was going on
across the country politically, and then it was actually kind
of a perfect way to dissect what we were all
experiencing in one way or another, weather involved in theater
or not at all, Like everybody felt that political text.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I mean, you may work at an insurance company and
face similar pressures as well, an no matter where you
are in the culture. Was there ever a point in
this journey for you where you said I'm just going
to keep my head down.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I want to work. I mean, certainly that would be
a rational impulse.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Yeah, No, there there absolutely was. And I think, you know,
I've never necessarily been able to keep my mouth shut
when I have something to say, so I think that
was just me kind of being like, you know, I
kind of just am going to say what I think.
And you know, my husband and we had a lot
(27:50):
of conversations kind of over over those years, being like
are we the crazy ones? Did we totally lose our
minds as everybody else?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Right?
Speaker 4 (27:57):
And we're totally wrong, and over and over we were like,
I know, I think that I think that we're right.
I think that everything that's going on here is not correct,
and I to this day, you know, it's it's difficult
to not have the you know, the access to that
like built in infrastructure. It's really difficult to be like
(28:17):
forging this path that I don't know what it looks like.
I don't know if it's going to work. I don't
know if what I'm saying is going to be received
well at all. I don't know if you know, I'll
be able to make it back to the stage. But
there's something within me that understands this to be important.
And I'm receiving support from other people who you know,
have either removed themselves from the industry or still in
(28:39):
the industry and staying quiet and are generally, you know,
not super happy. So I feel this kind of responsibility
to speak for you know a lot of people who
agree with me, but maybe are not choosing to speak
for very valid reasons.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, like you're talking about what I f in the
last few years of the people who are like yourself,
who are speaking out, who are swimming against the tide
It's often not easy. There are often struggles, there are
often disappointments and setbacks, but often they emerge from this
process stronger and even their careers are in a different place,
but in a very powerful place at times. So for
(29:18):
other artists out there, listen, I'm not in your shoes,
and I understand the economic hardships that this presents, but
there is a there is a better tomorrow for in
many cases, So I'm glad about that. Talk a little
bit about Broadway and the theater suffering potentially as a
result of all these different factors, because you know, the
(29:39):
industry is not thriving at the moment from what I understand.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, cause and effect, how would you describe that?
Speaker 4 (29:46):
So it's been really interesting because there is an acknowledgement
in the theater industry like stuff isn't going great. You know,
it hasn't tanked, but ticket sales are still down almost
twenty percent since pre COVID, and those are the lowest
numbers in over a decade. And you know, basically you
can look at that and you can say, well, people
(30:07):
are sitting on their couches, They've learned different behaviors during COVID,
you know, you've learned that you can be entertained at
home alone, whatever. But there are other industries that aren't
seeing those problems, you know, like pop music events, those
ticket sales are up sixty five percent. People are still
willing to go out pay a lot of money to
(30:28):
see Taylor Swift because she's doing something that people want
to participate in, that people want to see.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You know, ticket prices are insane at the moment. I
don't know as much about the theatrical world, but I
know in concert prices just every time I look at them,
they actually go up as I'm staring at the screen.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Sometimes I know, yeah, well, and so you know, like
that's that's a ticket. Like the NFL sales are up
eleven percent, you know, even even not in those kind
of more popularized cultural events. You know, all the top
ballet companies across the United States there ticket sales are up.
Even classical music ticket sales are up two percent. And
so in looking at that, you think, okay, so there's
(31:06):
there's not necessarily a problem of people not wanting to
go out. But the question then becomes, you know, is
it because broadways, producing mainstream theater, is producing content that
people don't want to see. And in surveys that we're
done of, you know, New York City theatergoers, suburbanites, the
(31:27):
New York City theatergoers are still you know, going at
fairly regular rates, but suburbanites and you know, national international travelers,
you know, all of those ticket sales are down in suburbanites.
Fifty percent of those ticket buyers cited not wanting to
basically content as being a reason why they're not interested
(31:49):
in going back to the theater. And so there's clearly
some sort of a disconnect between the content that's being
put out by that community and what people actually want
to see. And is you know, it's really interesting because
shows are actually costing more than ever now. You know,
there is a show that called Tammy Fay that just
(32:10):
opened and closed in less than a month that costs
twenty five million dollars to put up, and you know
other shows a Beautiful Noise closed, you know, having lost
twenty million dollars, and you know Water for Relevants twenty
five million dollars. These enormous like big ticket shows that
you know, there's there's money going in, but none of
that is being brought back. And so there's there's a
(32:33):
clear there's a clear disconnect in in you know, what's
being put out and what people actually want to see,
And to an extent, that's always been true. You know,
pre COVID, you had a twenty percent chance of seeing
a return on your investment in a Broadway show. You
know it's that's certainly not you know you're you're not
going to do that to make money.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, it's built into the cake e sadly, but.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Post COVID it's about a seven percent chance on seeing
a return on your investment.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Now, this is like a dumb question and an obvious question,
but why is theater still important to us, to the
culture at this point? Like you said, there are million
different things we can do. We can stay at home,
we can netflix and chill, catch the Catch the Giants
game if you live near in New York, and God
bless you be us They're horrible. But what why do
you think it matters? I know this is your life
(33:19):
and you and your passion, But you can speak to
other people and you've seen audiences you know, enjoy the
production that you put on.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
What are we missing here?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
What will we miss if this continues to shrink?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
So I think that there's something that's really you know,
I'm clearly biased, but also I think that there's something
that's really special about theater specifically. You know, it's it's
an ancient method of you know, building community and just
the active storytelling. You know, it's it's today's equivalent of
gathering around a fire and listening to somebody tell a story.
(33:53):
And I think that today it's actually more important than
ever because you know, we're kind of just becoming attuned
to a lot of the real dangers associated with associating
purely with screens. You know, like kids today are spending
seven to ten hours a day on a screen outside
(34:15):
of school, and then you know, we're wondering why there's
one hundred, one hundred and fifty percent increase in anxiety
and depression rates and like these young teen girls, and
you know, there's there's been this discussion that's kind of
cropping up about like, Okay, we need to we need
to work on investing in experiences that are communal in nature,
(34:36):
that happen in real time, in real space, and theater
is where that happens. I think that there is this
enormous push toward isolationism just within you know, person to person.
You know, people can very easily go home, entertain themselves alone,
(34:58):
you know, work alone, study alone, do all that. But
it's it's in our it's in our nature to be together,
and theater is an opportunity for all that to happen
absolutely without tech. And tech is great it you know,
serves us very well. But I think to invest in
(35:19):
these things that again are creative only when we're all
able to work together. I think that that has the
potential to to like help us maintain our sense of
humanity and like help us maintain our spirit of community
in a very real and a very important way. Especially
you know, for these younger generations.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's hard to judge other people when you just went
to the theater and watched a whole bunch of people
from different walks of life all laughing and crying and
singing and enjoying a show and having that communal experience. Obviously,
the Antidote documentary is not ready quite yet.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
It is a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
You know, this is a real looks pretty darn good
as is, but give us a little, uh sort of
look at the process moving forward and how people can help.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
So, so basically, where we are right now is I'm
working with a co director, Jeff Wise, who is you know,
an incredible director, producer who's a Tony Award winner and
kind of like me twenty twenty hit, and he was like,
something's wrong, something's weird here, And so we were able
to sync up and have gotten together to basically be
able to film about fifteen percent of the content that
(36:26):
we need for this piece. But you know, cost money.
We've used the money out of our own pockets to
create this as a real to basically be able to
show to everybody this is what this is what we
want to be able to create. This is a story
that we want to tell. And you know, we've gotten
extraordinary feedback from other people, you know, who say, like
this needs to be told, but you know, we can't
(36:47):
really do it without uh, without help, without funds, and
so what we're trying to do right now is basically
raise the money to get the entire piece you know, filmed,
you know, edited and distributed so that way we can
share it with the world. So the next steps are
just trying to get people to understand what we're doing
(37:07):
and hopefully contribute.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Excellent their campaign and you can go to the Antidote
documentary dot com. You can find all the information there,
the great Sizzle reel, how to donate, how.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To help out.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I mean, independent artists are so important these days. They
are rising up, They are telling the stories that aren't
being told elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
It is so critical.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
So if you want to help out your cause, other causes,
other artists who are kind of rising up or even established.
It's been a great crowdfunding success to see what's happening
across the cultural board.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
So I welcome that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I think it's really changed how the stories that we're
listening to when we're watching. And also before I let
you go, Julie, one of the things I want to
do more of in twenty twenty five is talk to
people about what are we not discussing, What topics are
are important or vital but just are below the surface.
And it could be entertainment, could be politics, could be lifestyle.
It could be your favorite cooking recipe, What's what? What
(38:01):
kind of comes to mind when you think about things
that we should be talking more about in our lives
right now.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
It's it kind of goes back to what I what
I was just talking about with you know, investing, in
in real like in person experiences. I think that that's
something that it's a huge, uh, it's going to be
like a huge kind of puzzle to figure out because
it's so easy and it's so useful, and it's so
efficient to spend all day here. But I think in
(38:28):
order to like you know, maintain our sanity collectively, we've
got to invest in just being with each other without
devices and you know respect. You know all that they
can do for us, you know, and all the ways
you know of communication that are enabled by them. But basically,
you know, what I'm trying to do moving into this
(38:48):
year is you know, like cook meals with family and
friends and like sit around a table without phones and
just like enjoy each other's company and and figure out
how to just help everyone around me.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Part of this piece, kind of like you were saying
about all the independent artists, is you know, I want
to I want to kind of like send up the
flag to say, like, hey, there are people that are
outside of maybe standard field of vision that are trying
to create things in a really exciting way. And I'm
trying to kind of you know, gather all those people
(39:28):
together to say, like we can all do this in
you know, by helping each other. I think that that's
kind of the way that I think we should all
try to approach moving forward, is helping each other instead
of you know, keeping that focus just on the self.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
And you know, just a quick lass note, My teenage
son loves playing video games and he connects with his
friends on these video games. They chat back and forth
and they.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Banter and they bicker.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
But I also know that when he goes out and
they hang out together and they shoot hoops or do
something physically together, there's a special light in his eyes
when he comes home where he just seems invigorated. So
that's even for teenagers who love the video games. The
real life is always better.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
So right, like we have to balance it out. Yeah, excellent.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, Julie, thank you so much for taking the time
to share your story and keep working on this documentary.
It is the Antidote. Go to the Antidote documentary dot
com to look at the sizzle reel, to sign up
for the email list, and maybe just chip in a
few dollars. It just takes five or so dollars. You're
going to make something happen. That's just got into the culture.
Absolutely or more, give more too. But if you can't,
(40:34):
if you're struggling, every little bit certainly helps and just
a few more people and this becomes a reality, so
it's always helpful.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Perfect, Thanks Christian, sure, thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Your character actor of the week is Shay Wigham. Well,
let's say for the show this week, we're a couple
hours late this time around. And my excuse, and it's
a good one, is well, you never forget your first
kidney stone. I had an attack this week and it happened,
of course, in the middle of the night. How to
get rushed off to the er to find out why?
Was I an excruciating pain? Ah, there's a kidney stone,
(41:05):
my little pal. Well, he's still floating in there somehow,
and hopefully I'll be I'll be I'll be saying audios
to him sooner than later, at least, I hope so.
But anyway, again, sorry for the quick delay, but things
will go back to normal next week. And again, of course,
just want to thank Radio America having me as part
of their great podcast lineup. I want to thank you
the listener for checking things out. That's it for the
(41:27):
show this week. Now go out there and have the
best week possible. That is the doctor's orders.
This week in the Hollywood and Toto Podcast, George Clooney
has the legacy Media's back, and that's a problem for
two reasons. One legacy media is corrupt and two, well,
George Clooney isn't much better. And we talked to dancer
Julie Iiker about her new project. It's a documentary called
The Antidote. And if you thought woke Hollywood went out
(00:22):
of control, wait to hear the behind the scenes stories
she's got to tell.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Hollywood and Toto Podcast. Entertainment news and reviews,
without doubt.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Woke Hollywood, narrative, free speech, free expression.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Now that's entertainment. And here's your host.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Oh Lord.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Winning film critic Christian Toto. I feel a little queasy
dunking on George Clooney. Now, I'm not crushing on the
Oscar winning actor. I'm more of a poll run man myself.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Just kidding. This is Hollywood and Toto, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But when I think about George Clooney, he just seems
to evoke old school clamor, like Hollywood back in the day.
Like I could see him fitting in with the Carried
Grants and the rock Hudsons of the world. He just
has that mistique to him. You know, there are good
looking actors like Brad Pitton. Half the time you see him,
he's got a scruffy beard or he's dressing down, and
George Clooney always looks like a movie star.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I like that, like it was the President of George
Clooney or something.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I also met him briefly during the Perfect Storm junket
back in the day, and this was before he became
a huge movie star. But he was very sweet, very engaging.
Actually caught him as he was going into his trail.
We had a nice quick conversation about the next movie
he was working on, which was Brother or Art thou
So always had a soft spot for George Clooney. He
just seems like an old school hero in the Hollywood community.
(01:50):
Also is the kind of guy who's much more talented,
and you think he does directing, he writes, he acts
obviously as well. So I don't know, I just have
a hard time just dunking on the guy like a
typical Hollywood celebrity. But I'm going to do it anyway,
because he really did bring it on himself. Now Clooney
is bringing his movie good Night and good Luck to Broadway,
which makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
One.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
He really hasn't had a big movie hit no while,
so this is a way to change gears in a way,
revisit an old classic in a sense. The movie, of course,
and the play focus on Edward R. Murrow and the
Hollywood Blacklist. Now, let's push aside the fact that there's
a new Hollywood Blacklist. This one targets conservatives. We've talked
about that a lot on this show. We will again,
(02:33):
but not today again. Want to push that aside. It's
not what I really want to focus on here. But
the play itself lets him opine about journalism.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's what you want the New York Times to hear.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And again, journalism is important. The Fourth of State matters,
for sure, and we don't have a working Fourth State
at the moment, but George Clooney seems to think we do,
and he spoke about the Fourth of State at length
during a conversation with the Late Shows even Colbert. Yeah,
the show is on the air. People do appear in
(03:06):
the show. It is part of a marketing effort. I
don't blame George Clooney for being on the show, but
every time I think about Stephen Colbert in that program,
I just the dancing vaccines just distasteful to say that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Get your shot right.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Now, Come on, people, just get the shot. That is
what he had to say about the media and about
the media's role in events like the blacklist of your
and why it matters today.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Forever we've had this issue, which is power kind of
hates the fourth estate. They hate journalism. And my father's
an anchorman and a newsman, and we've always believed in
the idea of when the other three estates, the judiciary
branch and the executive branch, and you know, when they
all fail you, you really need that fourth estate, right.
It has to be the people that can hold people
(04:01):
to account. And this is one of those. This is
a moment of us at our best. And I always
like to show and I like the idea of seeing.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Ourselves at our best.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think that's always an exciting thing to do. No
More recently, Clooney opened up about life in the show
and much more to The New York Times, and he
said this about how the media treated President Joe Biden.
He said the media dropped the ball when it came
to covering his obvious decline. You think you think they
(04:33):
dropped the ball. Of course, the bigger question is why, George,
Why did they drop the ball? You just don't drop
a ball. There's got to be a reason for it.
Did they have buttery fingers or were they corrupt to
the core and willing to do and say almost anything
to protect a Democrat. I think that's a rhetorical question.
But of course George Clooney is part of the problem here.
(04:55):
George Clooney was with President Biden last year. They attended
a fundraiser together. Each tried to use some of his
celebrity clout to make things happen, to stir up interest,
to get those coffers filled up for the president. And
at the time, of course, he realized, oh man, this
guy is a shadow of a shadow of what he
used to be. It is weekend at Bernie's writ large.
(05:17):
And George saw that, and he's not dumb, and he
kept quiet about it. He kept quiet for weeks and
weeks and weeks until two things happened. One was that
terrible presidential debate where everyone in the world finally saw
up close and personal that President Biden is not well.
And then, of course he saw the poll numbers sink
and sink and sink and sink, and all of a sudden,
(05:39):
George Clooney spoke truth to power. He went to the
pages of the New York Times and wrote an op
ed saying, Joe, It's time to go. Wasn't it time
to go when you saw him that night? Wasn't it
time to go when you realize his brain was what
my friend Joe conscious says is apple sauce. Wasn't at
the time. But no, we had to wait until the debate,
(06:00):
until the sinking poll numbers came in, and then only
then was a time to say, Joe, it's time to go.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Now.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
If I'm a patriotic American, I would be acting a
little bit quicker, like maybe the next day, and using
my clout whatever it was, to let the world know
that the president is not well.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Not old George, he hung in there.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He was a true Democratic warrior, and he didn't speak
truth to power. He didn't share the news. He didn't
alert his fellow Americans what the problem was until it
became politically convenient to do so. Not a good look, George,
trust me, you know what's easy to virtue signal, And
(06:46):
I think we all do it to a certain degree.
I think I've been guilty a time or two, maybe more,
of going on social media and doing just that. It's
much more complicated to speak up for yourself, to stand
true to your principles. And that's what Julie Iiker has
been doing for a while now. She is a professional dancer,
she's worked on Broadway, she has a lot of different credits,
and she has been pushing back against what she's seen
(07:09):
behind the scenes on Broadway in the creative community. It's
not pretty, that's for sure. And she captured some of
these moments in an upcoming documentary. It's called The Antidote,
and it looks at what's going on behind the scenes
with woke, with identity politics, with the George Floyd riots,
and the aftermath with virtue signaling, and what she's discovered
(07:31):
is something that is unfair. It's certainly throttling free expression.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It is not good for the bottom line. Of course,
Broadway has.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Been suffering a bit in recent years, and also it's
just darnright cruel, darnright cruel, and that gets exposed in
so much more in this upcoming project. So it's one
of the reasons why I wanted to have Julie on
the show to talk about her experiences, how she became
a dancer in the first place, the sacrifices that she's
made along the way, and then of course the things
that she's seen that she couldn't hold sign about much longer. Again,
(08:02):
people like Julie, people like Gina Carano, like Tyler Fisher,
when you swim against the tide, when you speak out,
when you say enough is enough. I have to speak
what I've seen. I have to share my stories. There
are repercussions. It's not easy. There is a risk involved,
and that risk means that most people who don't agree
with what's going on behind the scenes, they stay quiet.
(08:23):
They don't want to rock the boat. Well, not Julie.
She's here to rock that boat and to share her
message and to let people know what's going on behind
the scenes.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
That's why I.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Want to have her on the show to talk about
her experiences, the joy that she finds in dancing, and
where she's going next with her career and this particular project,
the Antidote. So hope you enjoy the conversation and let's
applaud people like Julie who are tough and brave and
strong and true to their word. We need them now
more than ever for sure, especially behind the scenes in Hollywood, inc.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Julie, thanks for joining the show.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I want to find out more about your documentary about
your journey in the arts, but I want to maybe
just dial things back at a little bit and find
out how you got involved in the artistic field. You know,
it's always a passion project. It's always the job your
parents that want you to do because they want you
to be a lawyer or a doctor. So how did
you get into this field and what were some early highlights.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
So I, you know, my family has always been pretty artistic.
I grew up around my you know, my grandpa, who
sang in a barbershop quartet, and you know, my sister
and I would kind of sit on the floor and
watch their rehearsals and grade them. And you know, he
played piano and my sister sang, and you know, my
dad played trumpet, and so I it was it was
(09:36):
kind of just part of the part of the family style.
And you know I was I was always in dance classes,
and when I was about, you know, to go into
middle school, I was able to get into a production
of the Nutcracker and it was so wonderful. I turned
to my mom and I was like, I think I
want to do this, and kind of from there it
(09:56):
was off to the races. And so I started off
my career in in classical ballet. I you know, I
had sort of a Hodgepodge training. There are a lot
of dancers who were able to go to one school
that really that really formed them. But I came from
a town that had a you know, like a couple
of okay studios. So I had a kind of diverse
(10:20):
array of training that I was able to pull together
to be able to work in in ballet companies for
a couple of years, which was great. But after a
little while, I felt like I needed to kind of
go where my heart really always had lived, which was
in theater. So growing up, you know, I was in
(10:41):
dance classes, but on the side singing and doing the
school musicals and you know, taking acting classes, and so,
you know, after after a time just purely purely dancing,
I realized, oh, what I really want to do is
is theater. And so it just it felt like it
was kind of in my blood and that's what propelled
(11:04):
me into you know, to move to New York and
you know, study there, train there, do the whole audition circuit,
and really like dedicate my life.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You've had a lot of success there. I'm sure there
were lean times as well, you know, having how many roommates,
you know, trying to spread the expenses around. What were
some of the harder parts of that early trek in
your career.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
So when I moved to New York, I was subletting
a girl's apartment for four hundred and fifty dollars a month.
There were five of us living in a four bedroom apartment.
And the room that I was using was it was
basically a bed, you know, you kind of opened the
door and it was it was just the bed, and
my clothes were sort of like tucked away into one drawer,
(11:50):
like in the corner. And I was able to, through friends,
get a job at a restaurant, and you know, that
was enough to cover you know, my base expenses food
and housing. But then you know, when you're a dancer
and you are, you know, trying to get a job,
you have to keep up your physical training. And so
I was also working at a studio called Steps on Broadway,
(12:13):
which has dance classes, so I was able to do
that in order to you know, get discounted classes so
I could keep up by dance training. And then I
also had to keep up vocal training because I was
sort of behind in that arena. So also on the side,
one of my friends and I swapped. I was giving
him like uncertified pilates lessons while he was giving me
(12:35):
voice lessons. We kind of did a swap because neither
of us could afford, you know, the workouts or the
vocal training. And then also on the side, I was
babysitting and this whole time, you know, you're waking up
early in the morning, and at that time, I, you know,
wasn't a part of the union, which meant that you
had to go to these cattle calls. So you're up
at four in the morning, you have to you know,
(12:57):
do your makeup, go downtown, wait in line in the
cold to maybe get a slot to audition. You get
you know, your fifteen seconds to say here I am,
and they say thank you very much, you know next,
and so it was like it was on like that
for a while, and I ended up booking my first
jobs by actually saving up money to fly to different
(13:20):
theaters around the country, like outside of New York to
you know, get jobs that were gonna you know, offer
me a little bit more money, offering a union status.
But you know, I literally saved up pennies, like stayed
in the hostels, did auditions, and then flew back.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Did your dream ever waiver?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I know this is sort of part of the process,
and many many successful people go through this.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It's just sort of what you have to do. But
did you ever have doubts or was it always this
is it?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
This is just the process that I'm gonna have to
go through this till I make it.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
It was pretty much just this is this is what
I'm doing. And I feel pretty lucky that that was
you know, pretty much my career until until twenty twenty
was I was I was laser focused. I was like,
this is what I love to do, and it was
really difficult. You know, there were there were questions about
how it would take form. You know, there was the
(14:15):
transition from classical ballet to theater. So it's sort of
a shift in the way that you know, my in
the form of my career, and kind of towards the end,
I started to become you know a little bit more interested.
You know, towards twenty twenty, I started to become more
interested in the creative process, but I didn't want to
stop dancing. It was just like what form will this take?
(14:37):
It wasn't do I want to be involved in this industry?
That was That was always, you know, whenever people would
kind of you know, drop out and say, you know,
I'm done with this, I didn't. I never really understood it,
which now you know, now I get it, But at
the time, I never really saw that as an option.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, you have a lot of cool credits.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What is the moment where you realized, not only is
this my plan my dream, I don't have an option
to do anything else, but it's working like this. It
was all worth it because I'm now here. Was it Broadway?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Was there?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
What was there a specific role performance? What's what jumps
out at you at that that kind of transition period.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
There were you know, there were a couple of shows
that were really special to me. But one of them
was an American in Paris. I you know, I got
to do this role opposite and incredibly talented actor, singer,
dancer Clyde Alves and we were in rehearsals for it,
and I was getting to dance ballet and you know,
(15:40):
sing and lead a show and speaking of French accent,
and I was like, these are all of my favorite
things just wrapped up into like one beautiful show. And
I felt like I could have done that forever. That
was the moment where I was like, I can live here,
you know, just just stick a fork in me.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Good, pinch me. This is it now.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Along this whole journey, you're also seeing some cultural changes
within the artistic community late twenty I guess twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen, nineteen, and of course so much change in
twenty twenty. You're on the ground, You're in this community.
What was happening? What were you seeing that was maybe
different than what you expected or maybe different than what
you found earlier in your career.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
So you know, perhaps perhaps some of this was ignorance,
maybe it was just you know, wide i'd optimism, but
I always kind of understood my job as an actor
to be or you know, actor, a dancer, singer or whatever,
to work as hard as I could at my craft.
And you know, if I could make myself as good
(16:45):
as possible as you know, perfected in my craft as
I could, as effective a performer as I could, then
that would lead me to success. And of course, you
know then anybody would come down to stand like the
world is more complicated than that. But what sort of
started to happen in as you said, you know, like
(17:07):
twenty sixteen seventeen were there there were just a couple
of kind of whisperings of these alternative factors that were
beginning to influence casting, that we're beginning to influence shows,
and so you know, there was there was this kind
of influx of sensitivity around race. And you know, I
(17:27):
got back from tour and then there was all of
a sudden, you know, I'm back in the audition circuit.
The show that I was doing, you know, was done,
and I realize that I'm having all these conversations with
friends that are like, oh, well, you know you're not
going to get that part because you're not this color
or you know, they're looking for that color person to
do this role. And I was like, okay, you know,
(17:48):
it's that's kind of annoying, but you're like, I, you know,
I understand the sentiment behind it. You know, we want
we want everybody to have the fair chance. We want
to right past wrongs, and.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
On paper, this is great. I mean, this is you know,
exactly more opportunity. And these weren't roles that were specifically
like a an African American character. This was just more
generically speaking.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It was just like ensemble work. You know, I was
going in for like ensembles of Broadway shows and they
were things that were not you know, culturally specific or
or looked specific. There was just this beginning of implicit
understanding that there were certain requirements that were just a
part of the casting process now and this was just
how you know, the world was, and you know, at
(18:30):
the time, I you know, was politically you know, very
far on the left and was like, yeah, you know,
all of this makes sense. It's all in good faith,
which I do think that that's you know, that's like
where all that began is, you know, with a good
faith effort to make things better. But that was kind
of the beginning of noticing that there were these other
(18:52):
factors of play besides you know, putting on a good show.
There was kind of the introduction of a politicization.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And then along the way I assumed it intensified twenty
twenty with the George Floyd protests. I imagine that was
sort of the kerosene to dump on this cultural fire,
is it or am I yeah, to hyperbolic or how
would you describe it?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
You know, it's it's a little bit. It's interesting to
you know, to kind of look back again and now
kind of understand what was sort of happening underneath the surface.
And then as you're saying, I think it really was,
you know, twenty twenty where everything sort of exploded, you know,
as I as I said, you know, I was like,
(19:35):
you know, very far to the left going into twenty twenty,
and then you know, lockdowns happened, and I, you know,
I figured out basically I saw this as a shift
in perspective and a shift in the industry. And so
my shift in perspective was basically, I I was seeing
everybody in my industry, you know, whose mantra was previously
(19:59):
the show to go on, you know, at all costs,
the show must go on. There there are these glory
these like glorious tales of actors going on despite all odds,
you know, Adina Menzela breaking a rib and going on
stage regardless, or you know, my husband has a story
of being in a show where somebody, you know, hobbles
(20:21):
on stage with a broken ankle, and everybody's so heartened
by it because there's this commitment to the thing that's
greater than any of us individually. And then all of
a sudden that stopped, and everyone said, no, we have to,
we have to the show must not go on absolutely,
and we've all got to shut down. And I, you know,
whether it was me being idiot or whatever, I I
(20:44):
wasn't scared of of COVID, and so I I didn't
want to shut down. I was like, con we can
figure out how to how to keep going, we can
figure out how to keep on, you know, keep on
doing this. And everyone around me had a different opinion.
And so this sort of was the beginning of the
shift in in my, uh my understanding of my sort
(21:09):
of difference from other maybe members of the industry, and
it sort of caused me to observe the goings on
of that next year in a different way where all
of a sudden I was able to sort of see
this this swell of group think in the industry where
like you're saying, there, they're the George Floyd protests, and
(21:31):
there are you know, just these like intense, intense social
movements that are going on, and we're living in this
little apartment on the Upper West Side literally like you know,
watching watching protests go by. We're you know, hearing everybody
banging in New York. Everybody banged pots and pans every
day outside the window for all the healthcare workers. Like
(21:53):
it was a very intense It was a very intense
time and place to be. And you know, I think
that's when this group of people who thrive in creating
things in real time and real space together, you know,
(22:14):
theater people, when all of a sudden, you know, kind
of locked away in their in their apartments alone, really
were able to kind of cling on to this movement
and banded together in a way that I think ended
up being more destructive than it was, you know, helpful.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Now, all this background, in your specific background and this
sort of collective cultural shift is obviously a part in
the driving force behind the antidote your upcoming documentary. You know,
it's one thing to have these thoughts and another to
kind of put them into a documentary form.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
What was the spark for that?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So it was sort of coming off of, you know,
of that intense time in in twenty twenty. There were
all of these really wild things that were coming out
of the theater industry. There was intense bullying of people
who didn't post a black square, and the theater industry
is very small, and so like the power of the
(23:17):
you know, the gang up is intense.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Get there, copy there?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
What is?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
How does that manifest it?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So like, just can you describe I don't know if
you faced it personally or maybe a friend or a colleague,
what what does that mean specifically? Because I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
So there are a couple of you know, iterations that
I saw. You know, I didn't post anything. I have
never really been incredibly active on social media, but I
dare you, I know exactly. But by that point I
was already like, oh, I'm not a part of this
whole movement. And I was confronted by friends and you know,
(23:52):
like reduced to tears over you know, my not having
posted the black square? How how dare you? How dare
you not support these people? You know, you don't understand
your complicity? Things like that, And I also know people
who were attacked in private messages and you know, in
(24:12):
text messages by their agents, by other members of the
industry for not posting the black square.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And again, this is not you posted something that they
found abhorrent. This is you decided not to post a
you know, a standard issue black square, right, That's all
it was. And it could be you're off social media
for the weekend, you don't post a lot. Yeah, you know,
you decided to do less less on your phone. I mean,
there could be a million reasons why you didn't. But
(24:40):
they singled people like you out for that.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Well, and that's not really what it's about. It's about
what it kind of became was this sort of bastardization
of this Broadway community, the theater community, which has historically
been this tight knit group of people that care for
each other, that are radically inclusive, that are loving, that
all do this weird job together that not a lot
(25:05):
of other people understand. You know, you're you're working with
these people, you're living with these people, you're traveling with
these people, you see each other in all these different jobs.
It's a really it's a different way of life. And
so the I think operationally, once once this political expectation
got introduced, it became if you're not with us, you're
(25:29):
against us in a very extreme way.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Wow. Yeah, So all this is obviously great fodder for
a documentary and something that people should see and learn
more about. So talk about the process of getting this
underway and maybe more specifically the focus or the sort
of the pockets of focus within the documentary.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Yeah. Yeah, So again, you know, like kind of coming
up with this the there was all this kind of
crazy documentation coming in from from the theater community. There
were there was a Dear White American Theater you know
post that was that was blasted out, signed by you know,
all these big wigs in the industry. There were all
these shifts in the way that content was being policed
(26:10):
and and changed, and there were all of these articles
that were coming out on Playbill and Broadway dot Com
that we're talking about how, you know, Miss Saigon was
racist and uh Lahoya Playhouse is going to do the
gender queer version of as you Like It and all
these things that I, you know, by this point, thought
(26:31):
like that's crazy. And there had also been some really
extreme cancelations within the theater industry, and I myself had
like a little little run in with cancel culture and
just you know, felt like I had something to say
about this, and it was really clear to me that
(26:51):
everything that was going on within this community was kind
of this perfect microcosm of everything that was going on
across the country politically, and then it was actually kind
of a perfect way to dissect what we were all
experiencing in one way or another, weather involved in theater
or not at all, Like everybody felt that political text.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I mean, you may work at an insurance company and
face similar pressures as well, an no matter where you
are in the culture. Was there ever a point in
this journey for you where you said I'm just going
to keep my head down.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I want to work. I mean, certainly that would be
a rational impulse.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Yeah, No, there there absolutely was. And I think, you know,
I've never necessarily been able to keep my mouth shut
when I have something to say, so I think that
was just me kind of being like, you know, I
kind of just am going to say what I think.
And you know, my husband and we had a lot
(27:50):
of conversations kind of over over those years, being like
are we the crazy ones? Did we totally lose our
minds as everybody else?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Right?
Speaker 4 (27:57):
And we're totally wrong, and over and over we were like,
I know, I think that I think that we're right.
I think that everything that's going on here is not correct,
and I to this day, you know, it's it's difficult
to not have the you know, the access to that
like built in infrastructure. It's really difficult to be like
(28:17):
forging this path that I don't know what it looks like.
I don't know if it's going to work. I don't
know if what I'm saying is going to be received
well at all. I don't know if you know, I'll
be able to make it back to the stage. But
there's something within me that understands this to be important.
And I'm receiving support from other people who you know,
have either removed themselves from the industry or still in
(28:39):
the industry and staying quiet and are generally, you know,
not super happy. So I feel this kind of responsibility
to speak for you know a lot of people who
agree with me, but maybe are not choosing to speak
for very valid reasons.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, like you're talking about what I f in the
last few years of the people who are like yourself,
who are speaking out, who are swimming against the tide
It's often not easy. There are often struggles, there are
often disappointments and setbacks, but often they emerge from this
process stronger and even their careers are in a different place,
but in a very powerful place at times. So for
(29:18):
other artists out there, listen, I'm not in your shoes,
and I understand the economic hardships that this presents, but
there is a there is a better tomorrow for in
many cases, So I'm glad about that. Talk a little
bit about Broadway and the theater suffering potentially as a
result of all these different factors, because you know, the
(29:39):
industry is not thriving at the moment from what I understand.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, cause and effect, how would you describe that?
Speaker 4 (29:46):
So it's been really interesting because there is an acknowledgement
in the theater industry like stuff isn't going great. You know,
it hasn't tanked, but ticket sales are still down almost
twenty percent since pre COVID, and those are the lowest
numbers in over a decade. And you know, basically you
can look at that and you can say, well, people
(30:07):
are sitting on their couches, They've learned different behaviors during COVID,
you know, you've learned that you can be entertained at
home alone, whatever. But there are other industries that aren't
seeing those problems, you know, like pop music events, those
ticket sales are up sixty five percent. People are still
willing to go out pay a lot of money to
(30:28):
see Taylor Swift because she's doing something that people want
to participate in, that people want to see.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
You know, ticket prices are insane at the moment. I
don't know as much about the theatrical world, but I
know in concert prices just every time I look at them,
they actually go up as I'm staring at the screen.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Sometimes I know, yeah, well, and so you know, like
that's that's a ticket. Like the NFL sales are up
eleven percent, you know, even even not in those kind
of more popularized cultural events. You know, all the top
ballet companies across the United States there ticket sales are up.
Even classical music ticket sales are up two percent. And
so in looking at that, you think, okay, so there's
(31:06):
there's not necessarily a problem of people not wanting to
go out. But the question then becomes, you know, is
it because broadways, producing mainstream theater, is producing content that
people don't want to see. And in surveys that we're
done of, you know, New York City theatergoers, suburbanites, the
(31:27):
New York City theatergoers are still you know, going at
fairly regular rates, but suburbanites and you know, national international travelers,
you know, all of those ticket sales are down in suburbanites.
Fifty percent of those ticket buyers cited not wanting to
basically content as being a reason why they're not interested
(31:49):
in going back to the theater. And so there's clearly
some sort of a disconnect between the content that's being
put out by that community and what people actually want
to see. And is you know, it's really interesting because
shows are actually costing more than ever now. You know,
there is a show that called Tammy Fay that just
(32:10):
opened and closed in less than a month that costs
twenty five million dollars to put up, and you know
other shows a Beautiful Noise closed, you know, having lost
twenty million dollars, and you know Water for Relevants twenty
five million dollars. These enormous like big ticket shows that
you know, there's there's money going in, but none of
that is being brought back. And so there's there's a
(32:33):
clear there's a clear disconnect in in you know, what's
being put out and what people actually want to see,
And to an extent, that's always been true. You know,
pre COVID, you had a twenty percent chance of seeing
a return on your investment in a Broadway show. You
know it's that's certainly not you know you're you're not
going to do that to make money.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, it's built into the cake e sadly, but.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Post COVID it's about a seven percent chance on seeing
a return on your investment.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Now, this is like a dumb question and an obvious question,
but why is theater still important to us, to the
culture at this point? Like you said, there are million
different things we can do. We can stay at home,
we can netflix and chill, catch the Catch the Giants
game if you live near in New York, and God
bless you be us They're horrible. But what why do
you think it matters? I know this is your life
(33:19):
and you and your passion, But you can speak to
other people and you've seen audiences you know, enjoy the
production that you put on.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
What are we missing here?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
What will we miss if this continues to shrink?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
So I think that there's something that's really you know,
I'm clearly biased, but also I think that there's something
that's really special about theater specifically. You know, it's it's
an ancient method of you know, building community and just
the active storytelling. You know, it's it's today's equivalent of
gathering around a fire and listening to somebody tell a story.
(33:53):
And I think that today it's actually more important than
ever because you know, we're kind of just becoming attuned
to a lot of the real dangers associated with associating
purely with screens. You know, like kids today are spending
seven to ten hours a day on a screen outside
(34:15):
of school, and then you know, we're wondering why there's
one hundred, one hundred and fifty percent increase in anxiety
and depression rates and like these young teen girls, and
you know, there's there's been this discussion that's kind of
cropping up about like, Okay, we need to we need
to work on investing in experiences that are communal in nature,
(34:36):
that happen in real time, in real space, and theater
is where that happens. I think that there is this
enormous push toward isolationism just within you know, person to person.
You know, people can very easily go home, entertain themselves alone,
(34:58):
you know, work alone, study alone, do all that. But
it's it's in our it's in our nature to be together,
and theater is an opportunity for all that to happen
absolutely without tech. And tech is great it you know,
serves us very well. But I think to invest in
(35:19):
these things that again are creative only when we're all
able to work together. I think that that has the
potential to to like help us maintain our sense of
humanity and like help us maintain our spirit of community
in a very real and a very important way. Especially
you know, for these younger generations.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's hard to judge other people when you just went
to the theater and watched a whole bunch of people
from different walks of life all laughing and crying and
singing and enjoying a show and having that communal experience. Obviously,
the Antidote documentary is not ready quite yet.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
It is a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
You know, this is a real looks pretty darn good
as is, but give us a little, uh sort of
look at the process moving forward and how people can help.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
So, so basically, where we are right now is I'm
working with a co director, Jeff Wise, who is you know,
an incredible director, producer who's a Tony Award winner and
kind of like me twenty twenty hit, and he was like,
something's wrong, something's weird here, And so we were able
to sync up and have gotten together to basically be
able to film about fifteen percent of the content that
(36:26):
we need for this piece. But you know, cost money.
We've used the money out of our own pockets to
create this as a real to basically be able to
show to everybody this is what this is what we
want to be able to create. This is a story
that we want to tell. And you know, we've gotten
extraordinary feedback from other people, you know, who say, like
this needs to be told, but you know, we can't
(36:47):
really do it without uh, without help, without funds, and
so what we're trying to do right now is basically
raise the money to get the entire piece you know, filmed,
you know, edited and distributed so that way we can
share it with the world. So the next steps are
just trying to get people to understand what we're doing
(37:07):
and hopefully contribute.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Excellent their campaign and you can go to the Antidote
documentary dot com. You can find all the information there,
the great Sizzle reel, how to donate, how.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To help out.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I mean, independent artists are so important these days. They
are rising up, They are telling the stories that aren't
being told elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
It is so critical.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
So if you want to help out your cause, other causes,
other artists who are kind of rising up or even established.
It's been a great crowdfunding success to see what's happening
across the cultural board.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
So I welcome that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I think it's really changed how the stories that we're
listening to when we're watching. And also before I let
you go, Julie, one of the things I want to
do more of in twenty twenty five is talk to
people about what are we not discussing, What topics are
are important or vital but just are below the surface.
And it could be entertainment, could be politics, could be lifestyle.
It could be your favorite cooking recipe, What's what? What
(38:01):
kind of comes to mind when you think about things
that we should be talking more about in our lives
right now.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
It's it kind of goes back to what I what
I was just talking about with you know, investing, in
in real like in person experiences. I think that that's
something that it's a huge, uh, it's going to be
like a huge kind of puzzle to figure out because
it's so easy and it's so useful, and it's so
efficient to spend all day here. But I think in
(38:28):
order to like you know, maintain our sanity collectively, we've
got to invest in just being with each other without
devices and you know respect. You know all that they
can do for us, you know, and all the ways
you know of communication that are enabled by them. But basically,
you know, what I'm trying to do moving into this
(38:48):
year is you know, like cook meals with family and
friends and like sit around a table without phones and
just like enjoy each other's company and and figure out
how to just help everyone around me.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Part of this piece, kind of like you were saying
about all the independent artists, is you know, I want
to I want to kind of like send up the
flag to say, like, hey, there are people that are
outside of maybe standard field of vision that are trying
to create things in a really exciting way. And I'm
trying to kind of you know, gather all those people
(39:28):
together to say, like we can all do this in
you know, by helping each other. I think that that's
kind of the way that I think we should all
try to approach moving forward, is helping each other instead
of you know, keeping that focus just on the self.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
And you know, just a quick lass note, My teenage
son loves playing video games and he connects with his
friends on these video games. They chat back and forth
and they.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Banter and they bicker.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
But I also know that when he goes out and
they hang out together and they shoot hoops or do
something physically together, there's a special light in his eyes
when he comes home where he just seems invigorated. So
that's even for teenagers who love the video games. The
real life is always better.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
So right, like we have to balance it out. Yeah, excellent.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, Julie, thank you so much for taking the time
to share your story and keep working on this documentary.
It is the Antidote. Go to the Antidote documentary dot
com to look at the sizzle reel, to sign up
for the email list, and maybe just chip in a
few dollars. It just takes five or so dollars. You're
going to make something happen. That's just got into the culture.
Absolutely or more, give more too. But if you can't,
(40:34):
if you're struggling, every little bit certainly helps and just
a few more people and this becomes a reality, so
it's always helpful.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Perfect, Thanks Christian, sure, thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Your character actor of the week is Shay Wigham. Well,
let's say for the show this week, we're a couple
hours late this time around. And my excuse, and it's
a good one, is well, you never forget your first
kidney stone. I had an attack this week and it happened,
of course, in the middle of the night. How to
get rushed off to the er to find out why?
Was I an excruciating pain? Ah, there's a kidney stone,
(41:05):
my little pal. Well, he's still floating in there somehow,
and hopefully I'll be I'll be I'll be saying audios
to him sooner than later, at least, I hope so.
But anyway, again, sorry for the quick delay, but things
will go back to normal next week. And again, of course,
just want to thank Radio America having me as part
of their great podcast lineup. I want to thank you
the listener for checking things out. That's it for the
(41:27):
show this week. Now go out there and have the
best week possible. That is the doctor's orders.
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