Canada at War: Canadians in the First World War

Brad St. Croix from OTD Military History joined us to discuss Canada's role in the First World War!

Check out more of Brad's work here:https://www.youtube.com/@UCQZZQKAo8CqUzsUoOhuQdYw

Want to support the show? Visit buymeacoffee.com/homebrewhistory and become a monthly subscriber to access bonus episodes and exclusive member's only livestreams!

Remember, Home Brew History is brought to you by #civilwartrails! Learn more here: https://www.civilwartrails.org/

Home Brew History is partnered with the Bearded Historian, Jeff Williams. Check out his designs here: https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheBeardedHistorian

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Whole crew, That whole crew, talking about whole crew.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Everybody, These whole crew a history.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Pod past, going back to the past with the little
best past.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
It might leave you a gas.

Speaker 4 (00:36):
Are you biting inspired?

Speaker 1 (00:39):
But you'll never get tired up?

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Whole crew, That whole crew.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
Top Scholars on show with Joey and Boo.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
That whole crew.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Whole crew.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hello, Hello, are you it's good doing good. It's good
to see your wonderful face.

Speaker 5 (01:09):
You're the only person that ever said that, not even
my mother.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, you know what's funny. So I know recently you've
had to go do some paperwork in Baton Rouge, uh,
and you stop by the Secretary of State's office to
see someone we both know.

Speaker 5 (01:28):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Kayley told me later that that evening, one of our coworkers, Abony,
she could not believe that we were not related by
any stretch of the imagination.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
She when I walked in, She's like, you must be
Bro's brother.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
And we've been mistaken for that.

Speaker 5 (01:44):
Not the last I don't think, Probably not.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Either. We're both really handsome, we're both really ugly. Either way,
we have solidarity.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
They see it coming. They just know, Oh goodness, gracious,
it's in a busy week and we've gotten a lot
of stuff out. We did our first uh not too
long ago. We did our first using about post, which
is kind of the one thing I get to do
every now and again and just sit down and write
about something I'm reading about as I late it's been
on them. But I got to show you. I got

(02:17):
a cool stack of books. The other day. I went
to a used bookstore, so I couldn't help myself when
paperbacks were wining like two dollars, well, shut up and
take my money. Also, LSU was having a used book
fair at the end of the month and it's I
think it's Friday Saturday, and I was like, yeah, now

(02:40):
know where I'm going. I know where, I know where
my money is. Book number one, Tom Holman's Dominion, The
Making of the Western World. I saw it and was like,
hm hmm, we grab that, easy peasy. Now. The other
ones are pretty much on brand for me. But you know,

(03:04):
I feel like you will instantly recognize this book. I
already yeah, farewell to the Party of Lincoln. My wife
does a really good job. But I got rid of
my copy of it, so it was time to get.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
A new one.

Speaker 5 (03:19):
I used New Use and yet again right, and then
this one I thought was interesting. I just saw it
sitting on the shelf Michael Hitslick's The New Deal, A
New History. Figured what the heck? So thanks to Gary
Haynes of Manuville, Louisiana for dropping this book off at
a bookshop bookstore for me. His name is in there,

(03:42):
soon to be replaced by mine. And then this is
actually one that I've been after for a little while,
but I couldn't find a cheap enough paperback copy of
it because I wanted it to go with my HW
Brands I Trader to his class. But Franklin Roosevelt by
Robert Ballack, Yeah, all right, So everything else feels like

(04:04):
it fits in the right reading about the Great Depression,
reading about FBR and reading about the New Deal. So
what's new?

Speaker 2 (04:13):
What's not?

Speaker 5 (04:15):
And I've been knee deep in Peter Kattock Adams books
as of late because I'm going through thumbing through snow
and steel looking for an obscure World War two unit.
So if any of our listeners just happen to know
anything about the eleven ninety fifth Engineered Depot Based Engineer
Depot Battalion or the two ninety first Engineer Battalion or

(04:38):
the nine eighty ninth Quartermaster Service Company. You know where
to find me. Tune ninety one is easy. They're pretty
much in every book about the Battle of the Bulge
ever written. It's the other two that I'm having a
hard time finding. So anyways, we're not here to talk
about me. We're not here to talk about this. We're
here to talk about Canada, the First co.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Canada. We've been boring Canadian lately.

Speaker 5 (05:04):
We have been. We did we did the World War
two episode with Mike Bechdel, which I think we we'll
release this naturally, you'll hear this one first, and then
you'll hear Mike's episode, which I thought that was really
a lot of fun. Yeah, But as we've already kind
of talked about here and you and I before the

(05:25):
show with our guest to understand Canada in the Second
World War, really need to understand Canada in the First
World War. So we'll do all that in just a minute.
But if you are a member of the Homebrew crew
and you are on our buy Me a Coffee page,
you get to hear both episodes same day on a
Monday release. If not you'll have to wait around until

(05:47):
Wednesday to get World War two. What spoiler? You know
we'll win. But anyways, let's bring on our guests. We'll
go ahead here in just a second, I'm trying to
get this to load up.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
There we go.

Speaker 5 (06:01):
It's go ahead and bring on our guest. Brad Saint Roy.
Brad is the kind of the manager of the on
this day in Military History page one. Well it used
to be Twitter now act, but he's on Blue Sky
and that's where we reunited after my Twitter exodus, running

(06:23):
with my hair on fire away from that garbage can
But anyways, we're glad to have you, Brad.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Thanks for having me on. It's always a good chance
to opportunity to talk about Canada at all, so especially
First World War. I don't get to do it as
much as I would like, so it's always nice to
have a chance.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, And that's I don't know, I think Joe's absolutely right,
you know, without you know, a decent understanding of Canada
war in the First World War, it's almost incomprehensible to
do the same for Canada in the Second World War.
So I stole that from him with that, Yeah, that's fair.
That's true. He's absolutely right, Hammer Meet and neilhead So

(07:06):
I know that today that we're going to kind of
divide this episode into a couple of parts. We're going
to kind of look at the Canadian home front and
some issues there, and of course we're going to look
at Canada abroad. So Brad kind of the you know,
just for for our listener's sake, you know, what does
the Canadian home front look like? Especially in the early

(07:27):
years of the First World War.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
So the home front goes to war not well willingly.
It doesn't technically matter because Canada doesn't have control of
its own foreign policy in nineteen fourteen. That doesn't come
until after the First World War. So when Britain declares war,
Canada is automatically at war, but it's still met with
massive enthusiasm across the country. That's pretty much universal scene there.

(07:55):
I mean, there's a large German, you know, ethnic population
in certain parts of the country, mostly located in what
used to be called Berlin, Ontario. It's now Kitchener, Ontario.
So there's some obviously mixed feelings in places like that.
In some places in the Prairies or you know, you
guys go you know, the Midwest, so there's some pockets
there as well, but it's pretty much a universal excitement.

(08:18):
Again we'll be talking about probably throughout this entire episode,
but Quebec is very different in a lot of ways.
There's not the same sort of excitement amongst the French
speaking population of Quebec, which is the majority in that province,
but they still do enlist and on all that, just
like the rest of the country. But it's going to
come to a head in a different issue that we'll

(08:39):
get to. But at the beginning, it's a very rural country,
not really had urbanized all that much. That doesn't come
again until much later, largely because of this war. Probably
bring this up again as well, but the First World
War has massive impacts on Canada and creates the country
we know today. Obviously Second World War does as well,
but sometimes I like to argue that the First World

(09:00):
War is really that really massively impactful war that sets
modern Canada kind of on the path that it's on. So, yeah,
you have a very largely rural country, very very reliant
for economics on resources. That's pretty much the entire economy.
Things like lumber, minerals, agriculture is massive. There's not really

(09:22):
a large industrial based in Canada really at all. But yeah,
and it's largely a British population. And I use that
word specifically because they would see themselves as Brits. They're British,
they're Canadians, but they're British. They don't they go together,
they don't, you know, they don't conflict with each other.
It's very complicated in that sense. One is kind of

(09:46):
the same when you're in Canada. Use the same flag.
Literally Canada doesn't really have a flag. They do, but
it's not used as much as the Union Jack. Again,
we'll see you see changes with that later, but yeah,
English is very predominant. Outlook is very British, right, the
Royal Navy and all of that. The Empire. Canada sends

(10:07):
troops to fight in South Africa at the beginning of
the twentieth century, so that kind of just really shows
that there is this strong imperial connection. And once war
is declared in August nineteen fourteen, Canada jumps right in. Right.
You see the same pictures and crowds in the streets
of Montreal that you do in London. It's no real
different there. But again, changes will be coming and actually

(10:31):
in Canada gets rather violent, surprisingly in Canada itself, which
is something that most people don't know, even in Canada
doesn't really get talked about a lot. But in nineteen
fourteen it's a very different country than it will be
in say nineteen eighteen, and then to say nineteen thirty nine,
again massive changes are coming.

Speaker 5 (10:50):
So as the Canadian Army British Army at this point
heads off to war in nineteen fourteen, what's their first
sort of look at the war or their first experience
in war. What does it look like.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Well, the British Army is very different than the Canadian
Army at this point. The Canadian Army is, I mean,
it's very very small. It's mostly militia, which has been
you know, argued as a kin to basically social clubs
for those of the elites of the towns. Basically don't
really do much. They don't really train. They kind of

(11:28):
just hang out and drink and then kind of run
around the woods in the back country in summertime, and
that's pretty much. Yeah, Yeah, there's some similarities. Yeah, but
it's it's not very well trained, it's not very well organized,
and it takes a long time for the Canadians to
get up. It's apart and go uh. It's raised as

(11:50):
a first contingent, that's what it's called, which becomes the
first Canadian Division. It's a bit slap dash at the beginning,
not well equipped at all, probably heard funs about the
you know, the infamous Ross rifle. They are quickly trained
at a place that's called El Karchie, still a Canadian
or meet While military base to this day. That camp

(12:11):
is literally built as the war is ramping up, like
it was an empty field. They decide to well, the
Defense minister decides to build this camp to concentrate the
first Contingent. It's a bit of a mess. This minister,
named Sam Hughes, is a bit of a let's say, corrupt.
I mean it's normal for the time in Canada nineteen fourteen,

(12:32):
or really pretty much all the Western democracies, to be honest.
But he's doing things like giving contracts to cronies who
make boots out of paper. Obviously they dissolve in water,
and it doesn't go well. He's just given up contracts
like it's nobody's business. And most of it is done
so poorly that once these Canadians eventually do make it overseas,

(12:54):
it's not for a bit yet, right, because they're still training.
They're not trained for war. They don't really get into
the action until nineteen fifteen. They basically have to be
re equipped by the Brits in most areas that they
don't have heavy artillery, they don't have any of that stuff.
They have again the Ross rifles pretty much all they
have of their own. Everything else has got to come

(13:16):
to the Brits through the British supply lines, which doesn't
really change over the course of the war, and massively
Canadian Corps is supported by British logistics and manufacturing for
a good chunk of the war. So yeah, they're not
really ready. It takes a long time to get into
a state of somewhat readiness, right, and then that goes

(13:37):
into nineteen fifteen, right as we know, the trench warfare
is pretty much solidified by that point. They've kind of
come up with a system of getting new units to
sort of rotate in and get a little experience and
the trenches at first, and then that's kind of how
the Canadians really get their first experiences of combat. It's
very minimal at first, but it's also kind of piecemeal,

(14:03):
kind of hard to explain if you don't really understand
that Canada has the same regimental system that Britain does, right,
So battalions are raised through the regiments, which are basically
like a home organization, and you can raise battalions off
of that. I just like to talk about it because
the skin still a unit today of the regular Canadian
Army is the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. They're the
actual first Canadian unit to go ahead. They go on

(14:25):
their own because they're privately raised with private money. So
it's an interesting way of this is very slapdash all
over the place, and that unit's first. Then they integrate
into the Canadian court much later. Also the same with
the only Canadian regular unit in the time in nineteen
fourteen is sent off to Bermuda to do garrison duty

(14:46):
because the Defense Minister doesn't trust the regular force, doesn't
think they're good soldiers. He wants to rely on the
militia because supposedly the militia are better. They're kind of
just sent off Muna for a while. They don't even
join again until much later as well, So it's can
be a bit confusing with the organization. And also one

(15:07):
thing that I do want to mention as well is
there's a plan in Canada to raise an expeditionary force,
just like there is in Britain at the time. Once
war breaks out, that Minister Sam Hughes throws it out
the window. It's completely destroyed. He takes away all of
the you know, the system that has the local regiments
to raise battalions to send them off. He destroys all

(15:29):
that comes up with this numbered battalion system. So that's
why you'll see like forty fourth battalion and no other
markings like if you're looking on a map of say
like Vimy Ridge or something. So that's how it goes.
Those are usually tied to regiments back in Canada. But
it can be a bit confusing. And then also people
are moving throughout these numbers and all over the place.
He's firing and hiring people at the drop of a hat.

(15:50):
It's a big mess and it comes to kind of
a head in nineteen fifteen. The first experience really a
battle for the Canadian first Division at the Battle of
Second Ep.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Paper boots sound about as useful as concrete swimming shoes
or a jell o'hammer.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah it's bad.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, I was. I was unfamiliar with something that you
could make boots out of paper. But you know there's
a you know, human corruption and innovation as it were.
You know. So you mentioned that, you know, Canada nineteen
fourteen is a mostly small, citizen based army. So in
order to bolster these numbers, which is you know kind
of you know, looking into Canada's war efforts, you know,

(16:33):
prior to getting on the show, and you mentioned a
little bit earlier that Canada sort of experiences an unprecedented
level of patriotic you know, fever, and people are willing
to you know, sign up to you know, do their bit,
so to speak. When it comes to that. You know,
obviously Canada's still got a long way to build a
formidable fighting force. So does Canada incorporate things like conscription?

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Not right away. So so that is the most contentious
part of Canada is First World War is the introduction
of conscription. So just really quickly, you have years nineteen
fifteen through sixteen all volunteer based. It's all volunteer. There
are no conscripts whatsoever, No conscription whatsoever. Things start to

(17:22):
go ahead in nineteen seventeen, the great victory of Vimy Ridge,
in a lot of ways, directly and indirectly, is what
sets off what's called the conscription crisis. The Canadian Corps
takes so many casualties during the fighting at Vimy Ridge,
and numbers of recruitment had dropped off so badly. They
can't get the numbers back up, and the war is

(17:44):
obviously not over right in spring nineteen seventeen, and want
to keep the Canadian Corps up to strength with the four,
well five five divisions. It's another weird story we get
to later, but it's trying to keep it all up
strength and the Prime Minister at the time, Robert Borden,
decides we need conscription for this. So this sets off

(18:07):
the most i would say, most corrupt election in Canadian history,
the nineteen seventeen election. That poster is probably one of
the nicer ones that they release. So what happens is
the same parties of today. You have the Liberal Liberal

(18:27):
Party who's not in power, and you have the Conservative
Power Party that is in power. So once this conscription
has you know, brought up and everything, they decide okay, well,
we'll have a de facto, you know, referendum on this
by having an election. So what happens is the Liberal
Party is split pretty much fifty to fifty of pro conscription,
anti conscription. The pro jump onto what is the Conservative government,

(18:54):
which is on this poster here says Union government. That's
what they call themselves. So that that kind of rips
that party in half at least sort of extremely contentious
election there. Again, like I said, that's a nicer one.
I didn't want to grab anything worse because there's some
nasty stuff out there directed towards French Canadians. They're seemed
not to be doing their bits. The numbers obviously are

(19:17):
not proportional to the population, but they're still pretty high. Again,
this idea of the slacker, those who won't enlist haven't
done their bits. There's some some photos of graffiti or
whatever saying the slacker, it's your turn out to die basically.
So then that kind of brings me to the point
I want to make is it's always assumed that it's

(19:37):
just good back that's not happy about the conscription and
everything like that, and that's not the case. There's a
large urban rule divide in terms of support for conscription.
Like I said, Canada is mostly a rural country, still
is throughout the war, and this is you know, the
early twentieth century. You need people to work the farms, right,

(20:00):
it's not the equipment of today. You need hands to
do this stuff. And there's rules in place that that
stop you know, the sons of farmers from going. So
they're they're okay with conscription until that rule is removed.
My own great grandfather was one of those, lived on
a farm outside Windsor, Ontario, and is conscripted as soon

(20:20):
as that rule is gone, he said off. So it's
it's just an interesting way of looking at this and
it doesn't quite line up to people's perceptions of what's
going on in terms of you know, support and anti
support of conscription. So the Union government wins that election
and they're in power for quite a few years after

(20:41):
that and the war as well. But it gets violent
at points because there are riots, which are fairly common
for well pretty much everywhere this world. Riots are something
to do. I mean, Canada again has this false perception
of we're peaceful all the time. I'm like, up until
like the all of the nineteen thirties. We're rioting like

(21:03):
every other week, like there's always something going on like
this is no different during the war. However, in these riots,
Canadians are shooting at each other. That is really not
seen like this. There is some kind of mixed accounts
of what happens. There's a what becomes a riot in

(21:25):
Quebec in Easter around Easter time. Some of the troops
are sent in, actually their conscripts could chunk of them
from Ontario, which has again that issue. There once of
Englishmen come in to kill us and apparently shots are
fired from the crowd. I've never been able to confirm
that that's the case, but there's like rocks and snow
and bottles and things are thrown, but shots are fire.

(21:47):
Canadians are killed. Four are killed as a result when
the troops up and fire, and it's the closest Canada
has ever come to a civil war. It is really,
really contentious, really really lots of anger. They're still angered
today towards this, and I see it often a lot
of mistrust from certain people towards certain political parties because

(22:12):
of this, because of this sending them off to fight
when they didn't want to. For an empire. They don't
identify with an empire that conquered them previously, so they
don't really see it as their fight. They're not They're okay,
they want to defend Canada, but they don't want to
defend Britain. So it becomes quite a violent, angry time

(22:35):
that doesn't really really kind of resolve itself really at
all until the Second World War. And I'm sure you
guys talked about that with Mike and what that looked
like and how that was handled by McKenzie King in
the Second World War. But in the First World War
it's not handled well. Conscripts do make a difference in
the front line. They're a fair number of them, no
evidence that they don't fight well. Actually a lot of

(22:57):
them are highly decorated, and they do make a difference
towards the end, which we'll get into with one hundred
Days Offensive and things like that. But you have like
this is a protest. There's no photos of that, that
infamous one where anyone's killed that I've ever seen, but
there's many of these, all kinds of protests and all
this kind of stuff, and other people are killed as well.
Labor leaders are imprisoned, and beaten and shot, and it's

(23:22):
it's a very violent time in Canadian history period.

Speaker 5 (23:28):
Well, I think what we should do right now is
let's hop out and take a take a quick, little
commercial break, and then when we come back, we'll, uh,
we'll pick up with Canada on the front line. So
how does that sound? Did you know that Homber History

(23:51):
is brought to you by Civil War Trails. Civil War
Trails is the world's largest outdoor museum with over sixteen
hundred sites to visit, where you can fall along the
halfways of armies on the move or simply sit back
near a restaurant or on your way to Frederick Douglas's
house while you are out on your own family vacation.

(24:11):
Civil War Trails is the ultimate way to get out
there and make some history of your own. Hop out
the car, grab a picture with that sign, be sure
to share it on social media using the hashtag schin
selfie and help spread the word about Civil War Trails.
Want to get involved, want to even support Homebrew history?
Best way to do it is by becoming a member

(24:32):
and you can ask questions of our guests using our
Member Member Questions segment. And then finally, if you want
to find a way to contribute to the show in
another very beneficial way, very substantial way, very appreciated way.
You can support us on Buy Me a Coffee. Simply
visit homber History's page there and become a member of

(24:53):
the homebrew crew for as little as five dollars a month.
You get exclusive bonuses like exclusive episodes, early and advanced
listening and viewership of our upcoming episodes. You also get
a chance there to ask our guests questions and the
leak leading up to their recording, and other things that
you'll get to see on there, the musing about segment,

(25:14):
which is kind of my deal. Now, I guess where
I'll sit back and write about something that I'm reading about.
Get ready for a lot of stuff about your own bears,
I guess until I get around to these FDR books.
But go on to the Buy Me a Coffee page.
Be sure to help us out wherever you can, and
please know that we now are weekly. You can catch

(25:36):
these episodes every single Monday, and exclusive episodes are bonus
episodes dropping on Wednesdays. Designs are by the Better historian
Jeff Williams. You can check out jeff stuff on his
Etsy page, and you can find a link for that
down in the show notes and in the description. But
now I think we'll go ahead and we'll take a
quick break and we'll be right back with more homebrew history.

Speaker 6 (26:00):
Assasssssssssssssssste there we go, all right, Yeah, and we're back

(27:06):
with Canada War with drags and KROI.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
We were just here chilling, you know, but hey, you
know what, We're back.

Speaker 5 (27:16):
We're still here, still there. Sorry, it's awkward because I
don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, what we can I suppose.

Speaker 5 (27:25):
The audio side of it doesn't seem that bad. It's
the visual of two guests that they're going. It looks
like it looks like my daughter when I have her
on the the bar camera and I can't see her,
I can't hear anything. I can just see her doing this.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
And I guess, Brad, we're back talking about Canada and
hopefully not paper boots on the ground. I mean, I
can you imagine the first individual that got a brand new,
fresh pair of boots and they just, you know, literally
just disintegrated off their feet. What that persons got effect you? Like?

(28:10):
I know some people have made like dissolvable clothing items
in the past, which is terrible, terrible idea. Uh you know,
but feet are incredibly important, especially in the First World War.
You know, everyone's always talking about trench foot. Yeah you know,
so paper boots ain't going to fix that.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, it was, it was. It was bad. And that's
before even getting on the boat across the Atlantic. So
I mean, it was, it was. It was not good.
And again it took some well Britain basically pulling them
out of the fire, as they say, to equip these
guys so that they could go fight.

Speaker 5 (28:44):
Right.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
It's just it's not looked at as much as it
should be when we kind of talk about the First
World War here in Canada, a very mythologized view of
it here, so don't really get into the nasty stuff
all that much.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
So Bratt tell our listeners a little bit about the
first sort of contact that Canada has, you know, on
these European battlefields.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
So the first major battle is the Battle of Second
ep in April nineteen fifteen. So the first Battle of
EAPs in nineteen fourteen, right when the so called Race
to the Sea is taking place, trying to maneuver each other,
gained the last flank and kind of hopefully stop them,
which course doesn't happen on either side. So the Canadians
are brought into the line and done, you know, just

(29:30):
a little bit at a time, unit at a time,
to kind of get some experience from those who had
already been fighting. You see a little bit of that,
a little bit of holding the line, not too much,
it's not till second EP. So this is in April fifteen,
is the first ashixiating gas attack on the Western Front

(29:50):
some say in the war, and there's use of I
think tier gas in the Eastern Front, but at the
Western Front, this is affixiating gas. And it's actually to
the left of the Canadians. So the first Canadian division
is holding the line as part of the salient there,
or the Germans trout this new weapon they had been
developing and chaos breaks out. Basically it's a French, Moroccan

(30:15):
Algerian division to their left. Again, mixed opinions, mixed accounts
of what happens. Obviously a lot of the unit's break
and run. I mean, it's not like I blame them.
Nobody knows what this is and it's just causing you know,
mass panic and quick death for some people, so they break.

(30:36):
The Canadians try to hold the line as best as
they can, trying to fill in the gaps. Not going well,
they have to fall back, continually falling back because they
don't want to lose the salient because they had taken
on such a symbolic importance. Right it's this last little
chunk of Belgium, it's still on Allied hands. They want
to hold it. So the Canadians are getting their first

(30:57):
experience of combat. The line is breaking, and then two
days later they're hit with their first attack because the
Germans do again and hit the Canadians dead on this time.
And there's that famous photo, I'm sorry, famous painting of it.
There's no real photos of what happened that comes later.
Canada does a very good job of documenting its experiences

(31:20):
in the First World War in the Western Front, but
nothing yet so we see some of the aftermath and
things like that. But this affixiating gas. There's stories of
you know, the rags that are covered in urine as
being you know, done ahead of time, like being studied
ahead of time, or being done in the spur of
the moment. It is used where the idea comes from

(31:43):
is a bit confused and everything. Another major issue at
second EP is the infamous Ross rifle. I own accounts YouTube.
I don't pretend to be a fan of this rifle.
I think it's a thing of hubris and canadianisms and
it just gets Canadians killed because it doesn't operate properly

(32:03):
in French conditions. So it they call up the Ross
Club because it will just stop firing the it'll jam
and be useless, especially as you know, a horde of
Germans are coming at you behind a wall of gas.
So as second, it's a bit of an issue, and
it's mentioned in multiple sources and war diaries in that nature.
So second, they eventually do sort of stabilize the line.

(32:24):
The salient is reduced because of this, but the Germans
don't get the breakthrough that they're hoping for and the Canadians,
you know, we're rightfully hailed, is holding the line, helping
the French troops re establish the positions. The British Ulple
will come in and help fill the gaps. But that's
the first major one. It's massive news across Canada obviously
because the casualty lists are pluring in, which is going

(32:45):
to become commonplace right for Canada throughout the war of
these massive casualty lists that don't stop until November nineteen
eighteen and beyond. But that's the first real test for
Canada in the war.

Speaker 5 (32:59):
We can hope imagine that having a constant flow of
casualty lists that your doorstep is necessarily feeding or helping
to stave off any of the animosity in any of
the ill feeling that's in Canada already. Yeah, it is
only adding fuel to the fire of some of those protests.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yeah, it definitely gets heavier and weighing on people. The
thing I forgot to mention is Canada's only eight million
people in nineteen fourteen. It's not a lot of people
at all, especially when you know how many people are
contributing to this one hundred thousand or so plus in
uniform just in the army. That's a lot. In sixty

(33:40):
six thousand die and that's a massive number for such
a small country. So and that begins really at second
eap holding that you know, famousailience, which they will come
back to in well many times. But back in nineteen
sixteen and then back in nineteen seventeen again for the
big one, that everybody knows.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah. At second, you know, obviously the infamous use of
chlorine gas, you know, is one of the creations of
you know, doctor Fritz Hobber, you know, which he's He's
such a complex character, you know, because because Hobbor you know,
has a Nobel Peace Prize for for being part of
the Hobber Bosh you know process that you know, and
fixes nitrogen into the ground and helps feed you know,

(34:19):
feed the world changes, you know, agricultural science forever, you know.
But he's also the father of toxic gas, you know,
and and just kind of reading up about, you know,
second eat is that you know, the French are absolutely
you know decimated, you know, by this chlorine gas. And
you know there's always I mean because historians, you know,

(34:39):
have a weird, sick, twisted sense of dark humor. You know,
I always see you know, historical memes that are like,
you know, why is the air so spicy?

Speaker 3 (34:47):
You know, yeah, yeah, and you know it's terrible but
kind of kind it's terribly funny, you know, but not
you mean, the thing. The thing is Canadians, by the
the Canadian Corps comes to use gas NonStop. They really
embrace it and use it effectively.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
For what it is right and the Canadians, you know
what they are, you know, especially able to do at
second EAP is hold the line, you know, because without
them they are you know that, and who knows, you know,
that line could have easily been broken. Uh, And I
think it's in. And I'm curious if you would agree
brand is it at second EP that the Canadians become

(35:28):
the fierce, you know, tenacious fighting force that the Germans
come to fear later in the war.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
I don't know. It's that's a that's a reputation that
it's hard to track. I think it starts there in
some respects. I mean, sometimes the Germans don't really know
the difference between the Canadians, the Brits, the Australians, New Zealanders, even.

Speaker 5 (35:50):
The South Africans, they don't know.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
Some of them don't care. Sometimes they do. Depends right,
because sometimes trench warfare is a lot of sudden around,
so you know who's across from now. But sometimes the
Germans didn't seem to care. Depends again, later on, I'd say, yes,
that is kind of the Germans. Overall opinion of the Canadians,
especially in nineteen eighteen. But yeah, second heap is more

(36:14):
of that, just getting that name right, or these supposedly
unruly colonials who live in the farms in the woods
and nigloos and you know, brawl with each other and
have no ciphixfication and all that kind of stuff, which
is not really the case, but that's how they're seen
in a lot of ways, and that's how they're still
presented today, which is not really true. But yeah, it's

(36:35):
really definitely the start of the reputation of the Canadian
Corps as they've later become termed the shock troops of
the British Army.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
So after well, we could sit here and talk about
trench warfare and all these other things, but I feel
like that's, you know, that's a whole series that we
should do both. It's just the First World War in
the trenches and just be stuck with it.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Grew in the trenches.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
Yeah, let's talk about that's the crew is in the
trenches too, But what comes next for the Canadians at
the front.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
So something I like to keep in mind in all
of this, right, because I mentioned that there's this first
contingent that morphs into the first Division they're raising more
divisions at home, so you have the second divisions also
being raised pretty much right away. Canada is upping its
commitment as the war goes on, eventually reaching five divisions
four in the line. Second division is coming online. They
come later. One battle that really gets no attention unfortunately,

(37:38):
and there's a whole memorial there and everything, just like
all the other memorials for the battles that people know,
is Hill sixty two. This is, I mean a major
hill for Belgium, for Flanders. It's not that massive in
terms of other places in the world, but in the
place and then again this is back in the eep Salien,

(38:00):
it's massively important. Why I like to talk about this
one specifically is a the photos and stuff we have
after math are are just shocking. Right. These are supposedly
taking places in places like kitcheners would there's no trees left.
The artillery is so awful that it just destroys everything.
And again I've read accounts of some soldiers who fought

(38:21):
through the whole war are saying the bombardment they faced
in June nineteen sixteen, So this is right before the
infamous Battle of the Song begins. The Canadians are fighting
against a German limited offensive fears if they say it's
the worst artillery they've ever been under, which is surprising
given what's coming for some of these guys, right, What
they're going to come, what they're going to go through,

(38:43):
and this is one that's stuck in their memory is awful.
I mean a Canadian general is killed because of this.
He's visiting the front line and gets caught in a
bombardment and is killed. It's just it's a back and
forth battle. I have a video about on my own
channel looking at this one because I think it's just
underserved and it's not as well visited as some other

(39:06):
places that get a lot of attention for the Canadians,
and particularly in the salient right because Passion Dale obviously
comes later, it takes a lot of attention away. But
this is really where the Canadian Corp is coming together
as a core, right, because now you have two divisions
that will be working in concert with each other coming
online again. And the third will come as well, that's

(39:28):
coming later. But like I said, Canada does not and
I want to if that's okay, we just jump into
it is the next big one. I wanted to talk
about is the song. Canada is not involved in that
awful first day right of July first, nineteen sixteen. Canadian
Corps is not there. The Newfoundlanders are there there. I'm

(39:48):
going to include them. They're not part of Canada, but
they are now, so I'm going to include them. They're
battalion in the twenty ninth Infantry Division. They go over
the top at Beaumont and mel which is a Canadian
site now, it's the one with the Cariboo. It's one
of the many, but the caribou that you see, it's
a slaughter there there. They are hit really bad and

(40:09):
it has generational effects in Newfoland because there's such a small,
small country. Well dominion later on, it just has a
massive impact on Newfoundland and still today as a residence
and then that part of the country because you know
July versus Canada day right our day of you know
Dominion days it called back in the day, but it's

(40:30):
also a day of remembrance in Newfoundland because of what
happens on the song. So this is this photo is
used all the time for Canada's war. This is troops
coming back from the fighting of the trenches of the song, right,
the Canadians don't come in until later. They're supported actually
by the first tank attack in history. In warfare, the

(40:52):
Canadians are part of that. At Flair's Corselet, Canadians are
fighting around Corselet. This is your typical stereotypical trench warfare, right.
You can see it in the mud. The terrible weather. It's wet,
it's cold NonStop. You know, the weather never seems to
get better. I mean I've been there. I've been there

(41:14):
in June. I was at this spot literally in June
a few years ago and it was snowing. I was like,
am I at home in Canada? Here? It was really
you know, it's just it's this seemingly awful weather all
the time in that part of France. I don't know
what it is.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
All I have to think is like, you know, can
you imagine the first person to see, you know, a
tank and thank you know, what is this angry tractor doing? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Well, lucky for the Germans facing them, they didn't do
too too much. They are they were highly unreliable at
the time, and then most of them don't even make
the front line. Yeah, and so luckily for them. But
some of the Germans do break, but not enough right.
Corselet is a nasty, nasty battle that goes on for
well three tuition a bit months until the final taking

(41:56):
of what's called Regina Trenchion behind Corselet, which really ends
the battle. The song. So the Canadians are there at
the end. This is the third division is now in
the line as part of this fourth division is now
coming online, So the Canadian corps coming together before you know,
as a full core of what it's going to be.
So that's all the infantry battalions, artillery as well. There's

(42:18):
also cavalry, but they are kind of doing their own
thing off with the Brits. They have you know, things
like guarding POW's things like that. They're not used in
the role that they're intended to be used for. That
comes later on filming the line as part of the
Spring offensives and then into the one hundred Days they
you know, filled that more traditional role they have. So

(42:38):
this is predominantly for Canada's fight is an infantry artillery battle,
which it will remain for the priority of the war.
But yeah, I do encourage people to look at you know,
the song from the Canadian perspective and the events beforehand
for nineteen sixteen, specifically because the one talking about next
is Vimy Ridge. It's the the battle. It's the symbol

(43:01):
of not even just Canada's First World War, with Canada's
military history. I've been on the record many times. I
think it's overblown that we use this as a symbol.
It's not Canada's great as victory, not even close. People
are gonna come after me. But whatever, I'm used to it.
You know, it's this first time that all the divisions
fight together. Okay, that's great. This first time they attacked

(43:24):
together on the same day. That's cool. All the divisions
I fought in the line at the same place before.
That's not new. This just happens to be the first offensive.
They're all fighting together. There's a ton of myth around
this thing. I've talked about this at length on my
own channel of what Vimy represented. It seemed to be
as a war winning battle, which it's hants. Look at

(43:48):
the events of the war and we know that this
doesn't really change much. Right, It's part of a much
larger offensive, the eras offensive that it fails. This is
a bright spot, but also something I from the Canadian perspective,
which I'm trying to stay on here without going on tangents,
but from the Canadian perspective, this is the bloodiest day

(44:09):
in history, not just Canadian Canadian history. You know, this
is this great victory. I mean, it takes a few days,
but April ninth, nineteen seventeen is by far the day
with the most Canadians dying. Is that vimy Ridge, this
great victory where all Canada comes together. You hear the
nonsense of we went up the bridge, as you know

(44:31):
Ontarians and Nova Scotians from Saskatchewan. It came down Canadians.
That's said in the sixties, that's not said in nineteen seventeen.
So like this is a whole other thing. A lot
of Canadians are aware of this, but it's used as
a symbol and I don't think it should be in
that way because it just doesn't match the historical record.

(44:52):
I mean, it's impressive sight. I'm not going to take
that away from them. Where the memorial is, and it's
a moving memorial. It has all the names of the
Canadian missing in France who have no known brave or
All the names are inscribed on it, so it's a
moving memorial, it's a moving location. Got this almost like
I don't know, religious like residence to it. But it's

(45:14):
not this war winning, great victory that we like to
present it as. It's very limited and the strategic position
is bettered by it. I mean, the fold you can
see here is the backside of the bridge which they
thought to take and why it's important for them to
hold it and the Germans don't attack it ever. Again,
I don't blame them. This is the worst side to

(45:34):
attack from Canadian attack from quote unquote the easier side.
But why it's it's got such an importance and I
have to talk about this is because we use it
as this marker of our betterness, which is not very
Canadian stereotypically, you know, saying we're better. I mean maybe

(45:55):
that's changing with current events. But you know, things like
the French to take it, they fought for it in
nineteen fifteen and didn't take it. It's always erroneously claimed
that the British tried to take it in nineteen sixteen.
They didn't. They just hold They just held them the line.
So we take it in nineteen seventeen and we're the best.
We took this thing that the big guys couldn't take. Okay, great,

(46:19):
So I just there's gonna be nasty comments, but I
know it's coming. But I just it's so overblown to
me for what it represents. And I think the greatest
moments the Canadian Corps are yet to come, and we
don't talk about them in this country at all, which
is unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I was gonna say, if not, Vimy Ridge, then where
is the cornerstone? Where does you know Canadian Corps lands concrete?

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Well, we'll get there. It's one of the photos. So
I plan this, so so yeah, Vimmy is in April
nineteen seventeen. Like I said, the Ross offensive broadly doesn't
go well. Of course, there's no breakthrough, which leads to
a shift in strategic thinking, which shifts back north, back
to our favorite the salient again again. This offensive kicks

(47:07):
off with the Canadians not in the front line, not
as part of it. They come in later, they close
it out in what becomes kind of the defining part
of the battle and literally the name of what it's
what it's called, right Canadian. The Canadian court takes the well,
I won't even say smashed remnants. There's nothing left of
the village of Passiondale. There's literally nothing left of it.

(47:28):
When they take it, they don't even know they're in it.
When they take it. They think they saw some bricks
sticking out of the mud, and that's how they knew
they were in the center of Passiondale, or what was
the center of Passiondale. It's been rebuilt, beautiful, it's great now.
So yeah, this photo is used all the time for everybody,
right's Canadian photo though of you know, the tank and

(47:50):
the explosion and the mud, and that's come to define
the First World War and a lot of people people's
minds is this, and it is it's no joke that
might I've been there. It's ruined, good pair of shoes
of mine. So it's still it's it's mucky, and you know,
people would just disappear, guns would disappear, like eighteen pounded
guns would just fall below the mud, never be seen again.

(48:12):
So yeah, it's a it's a brutal battle. The Canadian command, sorry,
the commander of the Canadian court at the time it
closes out the war, Arthur Curry, who is Canadian born trained,
doesn't want to go there. He doesn't want to fight
there because he was at Second Heap. He was there
through the fighting at Hill sixty two, and then after

(48:32):
that as well, he was at Vimmy Ridge command in
the first Division. He's seen, you know, all of this.
He doesn't want to go up there. It's a bit
of an issue with the British commanders and all that
kind of thing. But he knows what it's going to take,
and it's gonna take a lot of casualties. And he's
bang on with his estimate. I don't remember the number
off the top of my head, but he's within a
few hundred of the casualties. They end up taking a

(48:53):
Passiondale and it's a lot, right, and this is coming
after the heels of Vimmy Ridge. And then also so
another battle that I failed to mention in August nineteen
seventeen is Hill seventy, which is a success. They use
the Germans, you know, doctrine of constant counter attack against them.
They they know they're going to do this, and then
they take the whole They take the Hill seventy and

(49:15):
then just pummel them as they come in and it's
a great it's a good Canadian victory. In that sense,
and it doesn't get a ton of attention because of
things like Passiondale. So that comes on the heels of
all of this. So again I wanted to keep that
in mind because the manpower issues are becoming really, really bad,
you know, by November nineteen seventeen, when we're looking at

(49:35):
here with the Battle of Passiondale. Again, this ends that
massive you know, thirty eight offensive, which doesn't do what
they hope it'll do, right. They want to reach the
Belgian coast and cut off the U boats, which they
come nowhere close to doing, and a lot of Canadians
die for a chunk of land that's later given up
without a fight. So it's seen a lot of ways,
as you know, futile, and it is I mean, this

(49:58):
is a war of attrition as well. That can never
be forgotten. Yeah, I said, more people than the Germans do.
So that's part of the strategy. You call it whatever
you want, that's that's the nature of warfare, particularly this war.
So the Canadians are you know, filling their part of
it and again getting more accolades. They're they're they're piling
them up as they go along. I mean, they bring

(50:20):
passion Passiondale to an end by taking the village and
somewhat of the high ground beyond again using the high
term high ground for Reo loosely in Flanders, but it's
part of it. But again, yeah, it's abandoned as the
German Spring offensive skin underway in nineteen eighteen.

Speaker 5 (50:38):
So two, because we were kind of talking going back
to the beginning on the home front, things that are
happening there. Actually, we we often overlook the impact of
morale and I know I talked about this a second
ago in my last question where we were talking about
how this isn't helping the anti conscription movement, but they're

(51:00):
has to be a slowing at some point in the
willingness to volunteer, certainly, and then there has to be
an overwhelming resentment to the conscription of troops at home.
But how are the conscripts viewed when they get to
the front around volunteers who've been there maybe for a year,

(51:22):
two years, who have been at places and have been
at Vimy Ridge and are now, you know, faced with
this brand new guy who they had to drag him
out and force him to fight.

Speaker 3 (51:35):
Right and again. To me, it's a fascinating story I
mean I mentioned a personal family connection to this initially,
and I think he lived a look at this in
two parts, right, you have that contentious election and I'm
talking about Gayan troops are voting in that election. They
overwhelmingly vote in favor of the Union government. They want conscription.
They want conscripts at the front line, like guys that

(51:56):
have been wounded multiple times are being sent back to
the front line, which was they were told was not
going to happen. I bring that up because it's an
interesting comparison to the Australians who vote no. The Australian
troops vote no, they don't want the Canadians vote yes.
So it's an interesting thing. I mean, I don't think

(52:17):
a ton of work's been looked on at looking at
those in comparison, but it stands out as a very
massive difference. But once the conscripts get there, they really
come into the line, and you know, spring nineteen eighteen,
they really start to fill into spots in what becomes
known by certain early Nazi of Ludendorf of August eighth,

(52:39):
nineteen eighteen, you know, the Black Day of the German Army.
That's when the conscripts are really starting to come into
the line because the Canadian core, along with the Australians,
is the spear point of the Battle of am Yet right,
the massive breakthrough that happens that starts the end of
Germany's war for them. So it feels an important part

(53:00):
of keeping the Canadian corps up to strength. This might
be a little knitting gritty, but the Canadian structure is
different than the British. They have basically what are termed
oversized units. They want to keep them stronger so they
can have more of a punch, right. They wanted to
thin out the lines. They wanted to create a Canadian army, right,
made of two corps. Curry, the commander says, no, I

(53:24):
want this strong and I need engineers, so we need
bodies in the line. So this is all kind of
trickling down. But once the conscripts get there, I've read
nothing of them not fulfilling their doing well. A lot
of them are decorated, Some get promoted, which you would
not expect, especially in such a short time frame, but

(53:45):
that does happen. I think, you know, promoted a corporal,
some a fewer made sergeants actually, And one thing I
do want to talk about real briefly is the conscription stuff,
because particularly in Canada, it's looked at such a black
and white issue, right, don't want to go? You want
to go? Right? In Canada, it's not quite the well,
I don't think it's ever the case really anywhere, but

(54:05):
in Canada there are those who maybe wanted to fight,
but the family said, no, you're not going. Why would
you go? We need you at home. Like that happened
with my great grandfather. He was kept at home on
the farm saying are you nuts, Like you're not going
to fight, we will starve you know. So this is
there's other stories of people who were following the basically

(54:28):
like the French model or the what the Brits eventually
do of like I'm not going to sign up because
my time is coming anyway, might as well enjoy it
before they pick me up and I go. So it's
just it's a more complicated issue than I would say.
Then people you know, think of it as and this
is no different the Canadians who come into the line. Again,
I heard nothing of them not doing what they do

(54:52):
or doing what they do well and filling the positions
and the performance of the Canadian core through the one
hundred days. I think those that they don't stop from
August eighth, basically they just keep pushing and pushing and pushing,
and coming back to that earlier question of what I
think is the battle again very little known, the Battle

(55:16):
of Canal de Noord. It's named after the canal that
was part of the German line. There you can see
it was dried, used as a part of the Hindenburg
line in a way as the defensive I would say
this is Canada's greatest battle. So this is September, late
September twenty seventh. It's a bit of a crazy plan.

(55:37):
Curry was an amazing strategist and tactician. I mean he
was terrible at things like business. He lost a ton
of money actually in Beazels, a ton of money from
his regiment as a whole to do. I encourage people
to look up at that story because it's a bit wild.
But he was an amazing strategist. So he's cramming basically
two divisions along the three battalion four battalion front that

(55:59):
they can get through this gap that they've basically blasted
in the German line through this canal. Like that's what
you can see, the bridging and the horses and everything
they have to to get the guns up and move
because then they fan out. And to me, it's just
extremely well planned and it's done very quickly because the
Canadians had broken through another part of the line in

(56:20):
early September, so they don't have a ton of time
to plan this one. Like Vimy, which is planned for
six plus months. This thing's planned a couple of weeks
and terrain that they don't know and aren't staring at
every day, right that had been held for years. This
is on the fly. This is the Canadian corp at
its best. I mean it grounds down like eventually all

(56:40):
of them do. But they eventually push up to take
the important center of Cambray, which is a rail center,
and then from there on, oh they don't really stop.
From early October to November eleventh, where they reach moments
in Belgium where the British Expeditionary Forces were begins and ends.

(57:01):
Actually there you have members of well the forty second Battalion,
which regiment is the Black Watch, which is the Royal
Highland Regiments of Canada. We love the most confusing names
possible in the Canadian military. If we can confuse you,
we will do it. And we will even do that
with what the Canadian armies even called. We didn't even

(57:21):
call it the Canadian army until later. It's wild anyway,
if we can confuse you, we will. So yeah, this
is a photo of the war ending, right, This is
why they're sitting down there like it's over, We're done.
They literally just sit there and wait because that's what
they're told to do. And I can't be remiss off
it didn't tell the story of the last Canadian killed.

(57:44):
George Lawrence He's killed. He's a conscript. George Lawrence Price sorry,
is killed a few minutes before eleven. They're not sure
what happened. You just got out of the whatever I
want to say, trench but fox Old Dugat or whatever
and gets hit by a sniper. Not really sure what
he was doing, but he gets killed. And he's the

(58:07):
last British Empire death in the war. He's buried in
the same cemetery as the first. So it's got this
symbolism of the war is ending where it begins for
the British Empire. Obviously stiven people, right, it's Canadians, but
still part of the Empire at the time very strongly,
as we talked about. So, I mean that's a really

(58:28):
rough shot view of Canada's the Canadian Corps war. Of course,
we have the Canadian Navies proticting convoys in the North Atlantic,
and you have Canadians in the Royal Flying Corps and
real Naval Air Service which becomes the area like Joie
Bishop William Barker. These are massive names, but they are
small in comparison to what the Canadian Core is doing.

(58:50):
And many historians have said this is the greatest thing
Canada's ever done, is the Canadian Court in the First
World War as a national effort.

Speaker 5 (58:59):
So where would you place them, Let's think, you know,
in studying memory of the First World War, where do
you put the Canadians And where is place and memory
I guess.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Of the Canadian Corps of one of success and constant success.
Canada doesn't I mean, you can argue, depending on how
you look at it, they don't lose a battle really,
I mean you could say second heat, but they don't
fall back like they could have, and it's a stalemate
from then on out. They don't really lose. They don't

(59:34):
really lose much ground. They're constantly on the push. Like
I said earlier, they called the shock troops. They're used
as a spear point. The Germans know if the Canadians
are in the front line, some dad's about coming their way.
That takes on a bit of you know, mythology, and
you know, we're Canadians, we're badass. There's a lot of
truth to that here though, Like the Canadian Corps is

(59:56):
probably one of the best forces on the Western Front.
I mean, you can argue that about any of these units,
but as a collective effort, I think the Canadians are
doing very very well. People like Arthur Curry, their their
contribution cannot be diminished because it's him keeps them up
that strength. They're strong, right. The Australians, like I mentioned,

(01:00:18):
don't have conscription, so they're by the end they're out
of the line, right because they can't keep up strength.
Whors the Canadians have the conscription. They can keep pushing,
they can keep filling these units, and they can keep going.
So I think it's obviously, like we talked about, it's contentious,
still has resonance today, but that conscription keeps the Canadians

(01:00:38):
fighting and I'd say they are one of the best
fighting forces out there. It's a lot of work, it's
nothing ingrained. I would say, it's nothing about the Canadian
character quote unquote. I think that diminishes a lot of
work that was put into it and a lot of
a spirit of corp as well that went along with
being part of the Canadian core. That really that the

(01:00:59):
veterans did talk about, that they did talk about that,
that is not something that I would diminish because I've
seen the letters, have seen the diaries of all that
good stuff. So we're definitely at the top of the
Allied side for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
I definitely think one of the most unique aspects of
Canada in the First World War is sort of the
mobilization of Canada's first nations. I I truly, I truly
think that a soldier is truly made After Sabatan has
made a song about you, and I'm sure, I'm pretty
sure you know who I'm talking about here, Francis Peger
Gomagabo and tortured his last name, But you know, he

(01:01:35):
becomes a unique scout and sniper for Canada in the
First World War, and you know, I mean, it's it's
an amazing song. I mean, the song's name is a
Ghost in the Trenches. Uh so is that is that?
Is that an accurate title for him?

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
Oh? Yeah, he's Uh, he's just one Canada's best soldiers
in the war. It's actually first Battalion, which was based
around where I'm originally from London, Ontario, but he's from
further up in Northern Ontario, a little bit around Perry Sound.
If anybody knows that where he's from. Yeah, his exploits
are just some things fake, like it's a movie or something,

(01:02:09):
and it's not. It's all what he did. And I'd
be remiss if I didn't mention it. He's, like you said,
he's indigenous, he's from First Nations. He's got no political
rights at the time. Yeah, can't really own property. Everything's
done through what are turned Indian agents. At the time.
He could list. That was pretty much it all he

(01:02:30):
could really do. And he did it, and a lot
of them did. Massive amounts of Indigenous people enlisted when
the country did not support them. They supported the country.
And this doesn't end either. This doesn't This goes onto
the Second World War as well, just in a massive
project actually looking at this, one of the units in
Hong Kong, massive amounts proportionally of indigenous soldiers, even the

(01:02:54):
first Roar. I think actually maybe it's proportionally higher, could
be mistaken, but it's yeah, his his exemplary service. He's
covered in the Canadian War Museum, rightfully, So he really
should have a movie because like, it's just we have
some tales that I'm pretty sure are mostly made up,
but his is not. His is just bonkers, like what

(01:03:17):
he was able to do. Again, we're a country that
didn't support him and he didn't need to be there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
It's just it's just, I mean, you're absolutely right, and
and something I try to stress to my students when
I especially when I talk about, you know, the Second
World War, you know how you know, Native Americans you know,
are the largest minority you know to sign up, you know,
to go to war. They view the Japanese and the
Nazis as a threat to their homeland. And of course

(01:03:45):
the Navajo make a name for themselves is you know,
your co talkers and the Pacific you know, and they
have a very unique history. But Brad, we can talk
about that all day. We could talk about Canadate War
all day, but we do have a segment of this
show that's called Boo Hicky History, And I know that
we kind of brought up something a little earlier, so
I'm kind of curious to if you expand upon some

(01:04:06):
boo Hicky history behind Canada at war in the First
World War, and I guess what boohicky is. Explain that
it is something that is absolutely ridiculous, something absolutely rubbish,
something that people get wrong, something that people misinterpret. Bad history.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Oh G's bad history in canad in the First World War?
How much time you got? Well, jeez, what do I pick? Uh?
Oh Man prepared for this one?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
I was gonna say, what's like, what's like your biggest
you know what do you see on on Twitter?

Speaker 5 (01:04:38):
On boost General.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it again. I already
brought it up. But it's the Ross rifle because it's
such a Canadian thing, Like, how do I explain this?
It was terrible for what it was. It was a
target rifle basically designed before the war. The owner of
the I've literally held the letter in my hand, which

(01:05:02):
is kind of cool. If the guy wasn't kind of nuts,
you know, him to the Defense Minister and him his
correspondence with the Defense Minister Sam Hughes about this rifle
and how it was supposedly this great thing, Like we
hear the stories all the time of Canadians junking this
thing and picking up the lee enfield, like that happened
at second EP. Sam Hughes is literally telling the inventor

(01:05:25):
of the Ross rifle Ross that Brits are throwing away
the lee endfield to pick up the Ross, and I went,
this guy nuts, like that's just never happened. It's like
this guy, this defense we could do a show on
Sam Hughs and is insane, like he was a teacher
and he would like chew the chalk as he's teaching
the class. Like this guy was just bonkers. Yeah he's

(01:05:46):
nuts anyway, So like that one to me, and then
then people will still defend it because it's Canadian. I
think even though it was terrible for the trenches of
a jam, it was not. It was easy ish to
mass produce, but the Brits weren't making it right. The
ammunition didn't work with it well, so we just switched

(01:06:06):
to the British supply and people will now still defend it,
saying eventually I was like, Mark, I don't even know
Heat seven. It's like it finally was good for the trenches,
and I went, great, that's nineteen or whatever, seventeen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Seven. Who cares?

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Yeah, Like, it doesn't really matter at this point. It
wasn't going to do him any good at the time.
We needed this. We just needed to integrate into the
supply chain anyway, you know, which they couldn't have done
without anyway. So what one thing? Who cares? You know,
they still did this stuff. Why do we have to
defend this rifle that is used into the Second World

(01:06:44):
War as Canadian? I mean, I think they delivered a
bunch of the Soviet Union in forty one. I'm like,
this seems mean, but okay, like it, it's got this
weird mythology. People still defend it. People will defend Hughes
as well for the decisions made around it. And I
just I don't buy it's it just got Canadians killed.
I mean it just when they needed this thing to work,

(01:07:05):
it wouldn't, and they just It just drives me a
little crazy that this thing still has defenders because people
like to use it for target practice now, Like well,
right in the trench when you're exhausted, haven't slept in days,
haven't eaten enough, covered in mud, and it's been raining,
and oh yeah, there's Germans coming at you after they've
launched a bombardment with gas. Then we'll talk, you know.

(01:07:25):
It's it's just it kind of drives me nuts. Probably
the most niche thing you get spat on here, but
it's just, I mean, I could pick so many things.
I could have picked the conscription thing, but we talked
about that enough. But the Ross is it's just I
don't know. I think it's like a Canadian pride thing
because we have again okay, yelled that, but so little
when it comes to this unique Canadian miss. The Ross

(01:07:47):
is this weird symbol now and I'm still just never
going to be a fan, no matter how many people
send me emails and trying to send me proof of
how this thing is great. I'm just I'm not buying it.

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
My friend Eric Osen, who is she works with the
William Britten toy company. She's great, She's Canadian. And when
last I was with her, and I think I've actually
talked about this on the show before, but she was
talking about how there was a contest at home in

(01:08:18):
her local paper for a Canadian slogan, it was like,
you know, Canadians maple syrup Canadian?

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Is this?

Speaker 5 (01:08:27):
The winner ended up being Canadian as possible given the circumstances.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Yeah, that was done in the centennial in nineteen sixty seven.
As Canadian as possible under the circumstances.

Speaker 5 (01:08:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
I can't think of a better slogan to come up
with as a Canadian. It's perfect because.

Speaker 5 (01:08:44):
It's true, it works, It's great. Yeah, oh you know
what it's time for. It's time Brad. What is in
your cup?

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Well, unfortunately, not very interesting. Just some of Ottawa's finest
water here because I still have some more to do.
But uh, nothing interesting unfortunately, because it's kind of still
a work day for me. But yeah, just just my
local water.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
Unfortunately, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
So again. My my youngest brother, Brady, works at you know,
Alcohol Heaven, a total wine. If they don't have it,
you don't need it. He brought to my house a
bottle of King's Creek Tennessee whiskey cider, black label, and
that is what I have been sitting on. It's also
a work day for me, but there's no better way

(01:09:34):
to do. State trainings than a little un sober Joey
by yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
I'm back to be wi downer for you. I am
drinking green tea with an orange slice and a little
bit of lemon in there. Teams. Yeah yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
I'd become the corner alcoholic in the show.

Speaker 5 (01:09:56):
You had to be. Yeah, sorry, I'd do what I
can bright side, you know, film better, feeling better. Yeah,
so there's that, Brad. Anyways, we wanted to thank you
for coming on the show, certainly, but also I wanted
to encourage people to find you and find your channel.
So where can we send people? Where can people go

(01:10:18):
and catch up with you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Well, my biggest effort is YouTube, by by far, I
have tons of videos that look at kind of some
of the stuff we talked about today, And I did
a massive I called it Get a Normandy project last year.
That's still kind of ongoing, right because the eightieth was
of D Day and the Normandy campaign was last spring
massive one. But I've looked at all kinds of topics.

(01:10:41):
I mean, I do live streams as well, which I
think are fascinating with all kinds of different people. We've done.
I've done shows about Canadian raised Regiment of the Continental
Army in the American Revolution through to what's the more
recent ones. We've done, Sorry about Monty and con and
we've done. We've done. I've done a whole bunch with

(01:11:04):
a whole bunch of great people and just get to
learn about different topics that are just military related and
give a chance to talk about the people about their
work and connect with my community. Of course I'm biased,
but I think are great people because they're always willing
to learn, which is something I'm very proud of to
be part of.

Speaker 5 (01:11:21):
Awesome. Well, we're gonna drop the link for your YouTube
channel down in the show notes. But BO, I think
I think we've done our part too. I think we've
done all that. I think we've called rude, we have brooed,
we have brooed. Brad. Thanks for coming in joining us
to talk a little bit about Canada in the First
World War Again, Brad Saint Croix. You can find more

(01:11:43):
information down in the in the show notes and the
description of this video. Bo. Until next time, see you later.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
Cheers, everybody, whole crew, that whole crew, talking about whole

(01:12:17):
grew everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
Be told brew a history pods past, going back.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
To the past, when the little best.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Past it might need you a gass.

Speaker 4 (01:12:33):
Are you fighting spired?

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
But you'll never get tired.

Speaker 6 (01:12:39):
Of Whole Crew.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
That whole grew top scholars on show with Joey Boo.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
That's cold brew

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Whole Crew