May 14, 2025 • 57 mins
One of Civil War history's emerging voices, Evan Portman, joined Bo and Joey to talk about what happened to two Civil War armies after the clash at Gettysburg!
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Want to support the show? Visit buymeacoffee.com/homebrewhistory and become a monthly subscriber to access bonus episodes and exclusive member's only livestreams!
Remember, Home Brew History is brought to you by #civilwartrails! Learn more here: https://www.civilwartrails.org/
Home Brew History is partnered with the Bearded Historian, Jeff Williams. Check out his designs here: https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheBeardedHistorian
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Whole crew, that whole crew, talking about whole brew, everybody,
the whole crew, a history pod past, going back to.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That past when the little best pass.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
It might need you a gass?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Are you biting inspired? But you'll never get tired.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
Of whole crew, that whole crew.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Top Scholars on show with Joey and Boo, that whole crew,
whole crew.
Speaker 6 (01:03):
Doesn't it?
Speaker 7 (01:04):
It?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Does? You know? I mean when, seriously, when, when? When?
When Bill came out with that, I'm like, how do
you do that? I'm just not that great.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
Yeah, I'm I can drop everything else. I'm just not
that great. That's all I got. Sorry, that's it. That's
the end of the that's the end of the show.
Play the again credits. Okay and uh uh so, welcome
back to Humber History. Welcome back, David Greenland. I had
(01:34):
a hat on I don't do Saint Patrick's Day. It's
the Italian.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's that in the angle file, the wrong the wrong eye,
wrong eye word, not not Irish.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
Yesterday everybody was eating corned beef and cabbage and I
was like meat balls and spaghetti. Sure, perhaps I'll go
and have some.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Parmersan duking it out in the culinary world.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
Yeah, yeah, although I regret not being able to get
up to a Saint Jose's alter because you know me,
I always liked an Italian cookie sessions an altered too
well my namesake, so you know.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Good point my middle namesake, I suppose I didn't.
Speaker 6 (02:18):
Even get to have. Didn't even get to have that.
So what have you been up to?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Man?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I hope our listeners had a better weekend than I did.
I found out over the weekend I've been treating a
little bit of strep throat with a max of selling
a little penicillin based antibiotic, and I found out that
I'm one of the lucky ten percent in the world
that might be a little allergic to something like penicillin,
which is arguably one of the greatest medical advancements in
(02:45):
the Western world. Then well that's about right for me.
It sucks, dude, I literally, so I was. I looked
down on my arms and I was like, wait a minute. Oh,
I was like, do I have the measles or the
plain or leprosy. Jesus Christ, it's all over my body.
It's like crazy. I feel like jumping in a cactus
(03:06):
patch right now. I'm just rolling around for funis but
it's finally starting to work its way out, thankfully.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
But that sucks. How about you?
Speaker 6 (03:18):
You know I don't have it that bad. You know,
things are great, They're they're not pennsilan ergic bad. I've
been doing a lot of reading, a lot of painting, yeah,
doing some little projects here and there, doing some commission painting.
And I do being really tired of seeing Winter uniforms
(03:43):
nineteen forty three forty four, kind of like it's starting
to make it where I'm seeing little white spots everywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Now, I bet I did see that you wrote a
little piece for Emerging Civil War on War Game, which
was pretty cool.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
I did, I did? I did you know that? Well,
a little bit of me that likes to game and
pushuldle toy soldiers around. It's like the one thing I
can do in my life that I can control. So,
you know, it makes those lets me.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Have command, It makes those snops is in your brain
just you know, fire off. It tickles the old brain.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
Well, speaking kind of like leadership of Armies and stuff.
I've been actually reading this book for Emerging Civil War
More Important than Good Generals by Jonathan Ingle it's a
study of the junior officers in the Army of the Tennessee.
And it has been it's been eye opening, you know,
(04:38):
because when we think about the war and you and
I we've had so many conversations battles in every battlefield
they go to, is you know, what were the general
officers thinking? You know, what was what was when we
went to Stones River was brag thinking? It was rosecrants thinking.
And what's been really really kind of eye opening about
this book is, no matter how good the army commanders are,
(05:01):
they're not the ones in the rank and file. They're
not on the battlefield directly, at least not they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
They shouldn't be.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
But it's those junior officers, you know, those those generally
younger lieutenants up through majors and you know, like colonels,
lieutenant colonels. But they this book has kind of shown
a lot about them. Because when you think about historiography,
right life of Johnny Red Wife, Billy Yank, the Bell
(05:28):
Wiley books they take it tell you about the private life.
You know, you can read generals and Blue, Generals and
Gray and get the top. So there's this big gap
in the middle that has been sort of touched on
here by by Angele. But anyways, if you're out there
you're looking for a good book to pick up, I
recommend this one and too. You can also find my
book review for Emerging Civil War up. Eventually, I don't know,
(05:53):
I haven't finished it yet, but it's almost done. By
the time you hear this, it will probably be probably finished.
We're gonna talk about We're gonna stick with that talk
a little civil war. But before we even do that,
we should mention that umber history is brought to you
by Civil War Trails. Civil War Trails, the world's largest
(06:13):
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that path, grab yourself a selfie with a Civil War
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the word about the world's largest doctor museum and a
(06:34):
great friend of the show, Civil War Trails. More information
down below in the description.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You know, I also think Civil War Trails is a
really good job, you know too, of telling a more
full story of you know, what goes on and Drew.
The guys over there do a fantastic job and we
love them as a sponsor of our show.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Great guys.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
My favorite civil war trail sign, I think still has
to be the Jewish experience in the Civil War. The
sign that Drew brought to Emerging Civil War last year.
That that was really great speaking. We've been talking a
lot about Emerging Civil War. Its almost like their sponsor
the show.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
But they they could be for a small see they
could be. We have one of the great emerging voices
in the Civil war field. Another writer for Emerging Civil War,
a twenty five year old student at WVU, Evan Portman.
(07:36):
I met him last year at Emerging Civil War alongside
the Unfiltered Historian and got to spend some time with
Tyler and Evan and all the gang there. So to
talk with us today about the armies of the Mead
and the armies in the East post Gettysburg, we have
(07:59):
with us, hey, Evan Portman and Evan in the third
slot there right in the middle. Now he's in a crossfire.
That's a good day. Might have to unmute you, Mike,
Evan Heaven, you have to unmute.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
There we go.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
You'd think you know, as many ZOOM meetings as I've
been on. Uh. Yeah, thanks, it's great to be here.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
Yeah, and uh so a little bit give us a
little bit of background. How'd you get into civil war
studies and into emerging civil war?
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Yeah? So, uh, it started when I was seven years old.
I'm from Pittsburgh originally, so go Pens. I'm sorry, but
uh we went to this my my dad and my
mom and I went to this uh outdoor show near
our our place, and for whatever reason, Gettysburg had a
(08:51):
had a table there and I just happened to pick
up a brochure from the their gift shop and I
could not put down after that. So, you know, a
few months later we watched my dad and I watched
the movie Gettysburg. I remember like the two or three
days in between, you know, part one and part two,
just being like on the edge of my seat, even
(09:14):
though I you know, nowadays you can just look it
up on Wikipedia how how the battle ends. But yeah,
and then and then a few months later after that,
we we took a trip to Gettysburg and it's uh,
the rest was history.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
I guess you could say that was waiting.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It seems it seems that, you know, any historian has
has the affliction to study history at a very early age.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, in a very similar way.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I also got interested in the American Civil War because
my father was also really big into the American Civil War.
We would we would watch the Blue and the Gray together,
and and it's one of those things that you know,
men at age thirty to thirty five, which is coming
up for you, Evan, I've just wanted a new decade
of my life.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I've hit my thirties and.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It doesn't hurt as bad as I thought it would,
despite you know, some of my time, despite my health
issues of being allergic to penicillin, because that blows. But
besides that, men either get you know, real big into
smoking meats or some American conflict, the Civil War, World
War two, World War two more so. And I think
(10:25):
we've hit that age already.
Speaker 6 (10:28):
I started. I got the leap on the thirty year
old crowd. I just figure, I'm not really that I
like to barbecue a little bit, but I could just
go someplace and get good barbecue. I don't even to
do it myself. I'm sure I just read about read
about Montgomery or Patent or Eichelberger or literally anything else
(10:49):
other than reality. So, Evan, we wanted to talk a
little bit about you know, the Army Northern Virginia and
the Army of the Potomac are storied right up to Gettysburg, right,
and that's like the big crescendo moment, and it's me
and it's me, and it's the Army North of Virginia.
It's the high water mark. And then it seems like
we go Gettysburg, okay, and then some other stuff happened, okay,
(11:10):
and then the end of the war.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So what what goes on?
Speaker 6 (11:15):
What's you know, what's the thing that draws us to
these armies post July of eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Yeah, well, I guess I would kind of argue that
it's what doesn't draw us to you know, that that
time between July eighteen sixty three and then you know,
as you said, we usually pick up the story in
May of eighteen sixty four, when when you know, Ulysses S.
Grant comes east to kind of take command of the
(11:44):
Army of the Potomac. Even though you know, a lot
of people don't realize that George Mead is still in
command of the Army of the Potomac even until the
surrender of Appomattox. But you know, there's kind of this lull,
you know, in the nine months or so in between
those two major campaigns where there's not a whole lot
(12:06):
going on. There's a lot of downtime, and there's you know,
there there are attempts made by George Mead to you know,
attack the Army of Northern Virginia in Virginia, but nothing
really comes of it until Ulysses s. Grant, you know,
kind of moves east and starts the overland campaign. So
I would say, you know, this this period is is
(12:29):
not really that exciting to a lot of people, but
you know, it's it's just as important to remember as
as kind of the you know, the storied campaign into
Pennsylvania in June and July of eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So Evan, it's kind of become fashionable almost because you know,
at least previous historians, not of our generation, because you know,
we're all close in age, we're really not that old.
But previous generations have put a lot of emphasis on
on Gettysburg and and a lot of people have you know,
dubbed Gettysburg to be the turning point, and it's kind
(13:05):
of been fashionable to kind of debunk that. What are
your opinions on that?
Speaker 7 (13:09):
I I'm so glad you you asked that question, because
I uh, that's the one of the talks that I've
I've given is I end with with how the the
you know, the Battle of Gettysburg is actually a turning point,
despite at least in my opinion, you know, or interpretation,
I guess you could say, but yeah, I mean, it's
certainly not like Vicksburg or you know, like Atlanta in
(13:32):
the sense that you know, the Mississippi River is captured,
or you know, a great Confederate rail hub is seized
by the Union. But I would I would argue, uh
that Gettysburg is a turning point because you know, it
kind of represents this this almost maybe psychological turning point
(13:56):
in the minds of the members of the Union Army
of the Potomac, where you know, they realize, you know,
on July first, second, and third, eighteen sixty three, that
they can win a stand up, you know, knockout fight
against Roberty Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia, where
before that, I mean, the you know, the Battle of
the Antietam is you know, technically, I guess, right, a
(14:19):
Union victory more or less, but not as maybe not
as straightforward, right, Whereas you know at Gettysburg it's it's
really the first time that they deliver this crushing blow
to Roberty Lee since he's taken command about a year
prior to that. So yeah, I would argue that that
it is a turning point, maybe not as strategically or
(14:44):
tactically you know, important as some of the other ones
that the people point out, but I think if you
if you read the letters and the diaries of you know,
the Union soldiers, they very much recognize that this is,
you know, kind of a turning moment in their service
during the war.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
Now, bo you know, I'm gonna jump all over that, right,
I have no choice. It's the Westerner in me yep.
But so this is kind of my thought on that Eavan, right,
is that there's there's turning points which I think we
could we could classify those in the the operational, strategic
and the tactical levels of warfare. Right, So, operationally and strategically,
(15:29):
Vicksburg is significantly more important than three days of fighting
in Adams County, Pennsylvania. On a morale level, though, which
now penetrates into like a whole other level of warfare
because now we're thinking on the ground the soldiers that
make up the army is a more of a social
history as approach to it. Vicksburg is still important, right
(15:54):
because forty seven days of fighting, it's finally over. It's
a great victory for Grant, It's a great victory in
the West. Lincoln himself is wowed and impressed. I don't
think that takes away at all anything from say a Gettysburg.
I actually find that Gettys, Vicksburg, Atlanta, they all seem
to kind of carry the same weight when it comes
(16:16):
to one of those morale factor kind of wins. Now,
this is where I want to throw my wrench into it.
Any of that really matter, right, because the thing is
to win, right, The thing is to deny supplies, deny
the ability to reinforce an army, to take away munitions,
(16:37):
to deprive supplies, to take away that vital political and
economic lifeline of the rebellion. All those things have to
be tied into that. I just don't like turning points,
but I think that's what it is, right, I like.
I think when we start saying like, oh, this is
a turning point, it makes it seem as though everything
(17:00):
builds to that moment and then all of a sudden,
now something has to be different. It's like we mentioned
in our episode with with Chris mccowski, right is Gettysburg
is a turning point, if only because it's in the
middle of the war, and it's just it's just chronologically
placed in the right spot where you go, oh, yeah,
that's a turning point. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And see, I'm one of those people that I like
when people identify turning points, you know, which is such
an arbitrary We just like putting things in boxes. I
do like putting things in boxes because historians love to
do that. But the thing is is it generates when
it generates a lot of discussion, you know, because my
friends we take outside the box. I'm noting the box away.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, it generates discussion. Because the thing is, if we
agreed on everything, you know, we wouldn't be here. We
wouldn't be discussing this. But I do like that. It's
we sort of have Evan in the east and Joe
in the west. So I'm very very much interested in
this but Evan, though I do agree that Gettysburg is
a turning point, is it the turning point?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I don't know. I doubt it.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And and then of course my opinion, which won't buy
you two cents in anything anywhere. But obviously, and that's
one of the things too that kind of messes with
the historical timeline in your brain, is that Vicksburg and
Gettysburg are going on around the same time.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
Yeah, And I mean that was very much known to
the to the Army the Potomac too, right. How they
they find out, you know, that that Vicksburg falls on
July ninth, and by that time they're pursuing Lee, you know,
through Maryland, and after hearing that, you know, they think
very much think this thing could be over in the
next week or so, you know, if we can can
(18:44):
trap Bobby Lee right up against the Potomac River and
destroy you know, the Confederate Army. So that that's also yeah,
I mean talk about like compartmentalizing things, right, you know,
we talk about, oh, the Western Theater and oh the
Eastern Theater, But where or does that really like where's
that magical line?
Speaker 9 (19:02):
Right?
Speaker 7 (19:02):
I mean there are lines that that they draw on
a map, right, you know that the military military districts
and everything, but they're can you know, they're connected, and
these these soldiers aren't fighting in in these little regions
that we you know, kind of kind of draw out.
So I think it's important to remember too.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
This is arbitrary lines on maps that that give me
things to argue about. You'd be nice to my arbitrary
lines on map.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
I love maps too. I'm a big map guy.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
So July third, around six o'clock in the evening, everything
has kind of died down that its charges over Lee's
Army has been turned around. The high water mark has
come and gone, what what do we see from Lee's
Army in the army Northern Virginia from that point forward
(19:56):
through to let's say, I don't know, bo August August third, fourth.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, at least before at the end of the year.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
So, I mean the other thing that that a lot
of people forget is the the last one of the
last clashes between you know, the Confederate and the Union
Army at Gettysburg is a is a Confederate victory. There's
a cavalry charge on the southern end of the field
by a Brigade under Ellen Ellen Farnsworth under Kilpatrick's division.
(20:29):
That that actually happens after the you know, the pickets
charge is repulsed and uh it's a failure. I mean
Farnsworth is killed and members of the the Texas Brigade
and and some of Law's Alabamians repulse that. So there's
definitely you know, everyone gets on meet. Oh he doesn't
(20:51):
you know, follow up, and well he kind of does,
but it just doesn't really work out. So immediately after
after pickets charge and and uh, you know the the defeat, uh,
Lee is gonna pull most of his his forces back
along Seminary Ridge. He uh he pulls Richard Yule's corps
(21:15):
back from you know, the Colps Hill sector area and
he uh he orders them to Oak Ridge, you know,
up up beyond uh the Lutheran Theological Seminary and they're
actually gonna dig in for the night of July third
and into July fourth.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
And that you know, everyone knows that that famous picture
of the three Confederate prisoners that you know, Getty's Burg,
that Matthew Brady takes and Shelby Foote talks about, you
know that on the on the ken Burns documentary. Well,
in the background, you can see they're kind of leaning
along breastworks, and those are breastworks that are used by
(21:55):
Robert E. Lee's man along Seminary Ridge during you know,
the evening of July third into July fourth, eighteen sixty three,
because they're kind of bracing for a Union assault. Of course,
that doesn't come, so Lee starts to make you know,
arrangements to withdraw his army back to Virginia. And he
(22:17):
he kind of devises this this two pronged approach, and
he he instructs General and Bowden, who is one of
Stewart's cavalry commanders, to take charge of the wagon trains
carry all of the supplies, all of the pigs and
you know, the hogs and the cows and the you know,
food stuffs that that that the Confederates come into Pennsylvania four.
(22:41):
That's one of his objectives. So he's not gonna leave
without any of that stuff. And also the the wagon
train of the wounded that he's going to, you know,
make sure to try and get back to Virginia. And
that's that that wagon train that stretches I think about
forty miles long or so is going to head out
(23:01):
the Chambersburg Pike, so you know, think like what north
west of Gettysburg. Then he's gonna take his army, his
three corps under you know, Ap Hill, James Longstreet, and
Richard Yule, and they're gonna head out the Fairfield Road,
which is more southwest, you know, kind of going back
(23:24):
the way they came. But that's the most direct route
back to the crossing where he wants to cross the
river around Williamsport, Maryland. And that's gonna give George Mead
a little bit of a more difficult time and he's
gonna have to take a more circuitous route to try
and cut Lee off. So that's really the the the
(23:44):
situation that Lee is facing in you know, in mid
July of eighteen sixty three. And of course he gets
to the river, he digs in because it's it's raining
and and and that's that's another you know challenge that's
facing him. Uh, these torrential downpours that are gonna make
things muddy and wagons are going to be you know,
(24:06):
difficult to move. And he gets to the river and
it's it's swallen, it's you know, it's it's overflowing and
the the Pontoon bridges that he's requested are here, so
he's gonna have to buy time for his army to
construct new bridges. And long story short, they do, and
he gets away across the Potomac without without too much
(24:28):
trouble from George Mead and the Army of the Potomac.
But once he gets back to Virginia, you know, he's
lost I think about five, five or six per Gaye
commanders during the you know, the Gettysburg campaign. He's lost
Dorsey Pender, who Lee said he thought would make a
core commander one day. So that's that's really at least,
(24:51):
you know, what I would argue is the uh, the
lasting impact or the legacy of the Gettysburg campaign for
Roberty Lee is losing. You know, Joe was talking about
those you know, those officers that you know aren't aren't
the generals, right, the core commanders, but they're they're not
quite enlisted men either, you know, the junior officers. Lee's
(25:14):
gonna have a tough time replacing those. So that's that's
that's I think what you know that the Battle of
Gettysburg really represents, as far as challenges go, from Roberty.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Lee Evan too. I wanted to ask how would you
how would you assess Lee oh Man? Yeah, yeah, how's that.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
As far as you mean after the battle goes, after.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
The battle after I mean this is this is one
of the situations that I find shows the weaknesses or
the strengths of an army commander. Right is, Okay, you've
been defeated in an open battle. Things clearly have gone
against you. You're in retreat. How do you conduct this retreat?
That's one of the things that you know, again jumping
(26:00):
back to the west, right, I'm going to stay in
my playground. You stay in yours, your arbitrary lines of playgrounds.
People jump all over John bell Hood for his handling
in the Tennessee campaign, But I look at the retreat
from Nashville back down through Alabama and the Mississippian. The
fact that he gets most of the army that he
(26:21):
started with, of the thirty three thousand man he goes
into Tennessee with, he gets eighteen thousand, six hundred of
them down into Mississippian out or down in Mississippi. That doesn't,
you know, account for his casualties along the way. But
still manages to get almost half of the army, if
not more than half of the army to safety, and
(26:41):
then administer it and get it into winter quarters. I
would see that it's a successful retreat and that the
Army of Tennessee wasn't completely destroyed. You could argue the
same thing for Lee earlier on in the war and
then see his kind of his escape strategies towards the
end of the war. But where you put him after Gettysburg.
Speaker 7 (27:02):
Yeah, I mean I would say something similar. You know,
he's he is able to get you know, most of
most of his guys out right back to Virginia. He's
he's able to kind of keep you know, meet at
arm's length and prevent him from attacking. Uh. And I
(27:23):
mean he is he is going to leave some some
of the you know soldiers, the wounded behind. Isaac Trimble
is probably the most well known of them.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (27:32):
He's you know, the Confederate surgeons are gonna have to
kind of determine who who is well enough to move
and who is not. And Isaac Tremble ends up in
a house in Gettysburg, and he's captured by the Union
army who tends to him. Uh, but yeah, I mean
also Lee, you know, by choosing the Fairfield Road, which
(27:52):
goes out of Gettysburg towards the the southwest. He's that's
gonna force uh uh forced me to take more of
a circubitous route to try and cut Lee off. So
you're seeing I mean, even though Lee makes this blunder
of you know, of ordering pickets charge or you know,
(28:14):
some might argue that the battle was lost on the
second day, uh you know, bye by ordering the Frank attacks,
but you're gonna see the same kind of Lee who
is you know, the wily gray fox right, Who's who
is you know, being ambitious but also kind of clever
(28:34):
too by uh you know, trying to make up for
his you know, the casualties that he just incurred, and
also uh you know, being out numbered by the federal force,
which she is for the entire war.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
So I mean, we've talked Bobby Lee, and there's a
lot to talk about, you know, regarding him.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And so I guess now what we have to do
is talk about meat. And I'm not talking honey wine either,
how exactly that which would be actually perfect for something
like this a homebrewer history. But I have an unfortunate
dry spell of Mead. But anyway, let's talk about General Mead.
How do you assess his abilities to command the Army
(29:17):
of the Potomac Afterghettysburg.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Yeah, I mean talk about you said it's it's become
kind of fashionable to say Gettysburg isn't a turning point, right, Well,
I think it's kind of become fashionable to defend Mead
or you know, kind of be a meat apologist or
you know whatnot. And I like, I think, especially in
(29:40):
the post war years, you know, the Mead Sickles affair
and everything, he's kind of h an unfortunate scapegoat. And
I think by you know, by far, Meat is the
best commander of the Army of the Potomac. But I
don't think that necessarily absolves him from you know, making
mistakes or blame. As far as attacking the Confederate Army
(30:05):
at Gettysburg. You know, some critics have said, well, he
should have he should have attacked right after Pickts charge
or something like that. I don't think that's that's reasonable
or practical or you know, at all really, given that,
you know, the Union Army lost a significant portion of
its men as well, as junior officers as well as
(30:26):
core commanders. Right, so, you know, the Army of the
Potomac is really licking its wounds on Cemetery Ridge, just
like the Confederates are too. However, there comes a point
right on on July twelfth, eleventh or twelfth, where he
confronts me or he confronts Lee on the banks of
the Ptomac, and Mead is really unsure as to the
(30:51):
strength of Lee's army, and he holds this Council of
War just like he does at the Lyster Farm, you know,
his headquarters on July second, and only two Corps commanders
vote that he should attack Lee. One of them is
Oliver Otis Howard, and the other one, I believe is
John Newton, who is commanding the first Corps at that time.
(31:13):
And Mead is is hesitant as a result because you know,
all of his his you know, uh, core commanders are
kind of we don't we don't really know the strength
of the Confederate army. So that prompts me to conduct
several reconnaissance and forces like he's you know, kind of
(31:34):
probing the Confederate line. He's also battling rain, so I mean,
he has significant challenges, uh, you know, facing him. But
then you know, the the the Union Army wakes up
the next morning and they see did Robert Lee's gone
from the trenches. So I think there there certainly was
an opportunity there. And of course Lincoln is you know,
(31:57):
is driven nuts about this, right he he cannot believe
that that Mead late Lee escape once again. And even
even the soldiers of the Union Army are are thinking that,
you know, they're they're they're coming off this euphoria victory.
You know, they've finally beaten the Confederate Army in a
stand up fight, and they think, they think that this
(32:19):
war could be over given you know, the fall of
Vicksburg and everything. So they're ready to fight and they're
ready to end it. And uh, Mead, Mead does not
launch any kind of significant attack, uh to at least try.
But that's that's my two cents.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
So no, I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
And I think Mead does, you know, exactly what he's
supposed to and he works with what he has. And
I honestly think, you know, because we we have the
ability of hindsight, right, we we have the maps, we
have the arbitrary lions we have, you know, you know,
effectively one hundred plus years of you know, historiography wrapping
around the American Civil War, Whereas in the time, I
(33:01):
think people have a hard time comprehending that there are,
you know, certain things that happen, whether it be weather,
whether it be supplies, whatever. You know, things are not
always you know, sunshiny and seventy five. You know, soldiers
are not always have their bellies full as they march,
you know, because I always make the argument, I'm like, yeah, physically,
(33:21):
soldiers march on their feet, but you know, metaphorically they
march on their stomach. Get me to march six miles
on an empty stomach, and I'll tell you a few
explicitive words that may not be worth you know, uttering here.
But no, I definitely think Need does exactly what he's
supposed to do. And I understand his ability to be cautious,
you know, because like you said, you know, he has
(33:41):
lost you know, core commanders, he has lost those NCOs,
those junior officers.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
But I also understand Lincoln's frustration.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know, because I mean we have to keep in mind,
this is summer of sixty three, you know, Lincoln knows
that in you know, a calendar year's time, he's going
to have to seek re election, you know, and how
great would it be, you know, for Lincoln to say
I won the American Civil War as the American president
in my first term.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 6 (34:14):
All right, good question for you. I want you to
kind of keep going on that idea to rebuild the
Army at Potomac, because, yeah, John Newton is now in
command of the First Corps. He's replacing John Reynolds, arguably
(34:36):
the most trusted of meads the corps commanders going into
all this, there's the bickering between Hancock and Doubleday in
the Second Corps. You've got Dan Sickles commanding the Third
Corps but wounded. So now that one's kind of up
in the air, there's a lot of friction because what
that's David Belbernie right, is commanding Third Corps at this point.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
Now I believe, I believe.
Speaker 10 (35:00):
So Yeah, so the the loo look at that I
pulled the arm cork commander out of my It's almost
like that reading of fans a couple of years ago
really helped out anyhow, So you're trying to rebuild the
Army of the Potomac in the same.
Speaker 6 (35:18):
Way that Lee has to try and rebuild the army
north of Virginia. And there's differences, right, So me dealing
with a lot of core commanders, a lot of division commanders,
Lee has to try and resource junior officers, regimental commanders,
company commanders. How do you even begin to evaluate the
(35:41):
effectiveness of both, Because I could tell you, you know,
hindsight and and to reading in these armies, it certainly
seems as though the Army of the Potomac was always
set up in a way that would bring it, you know,
those kind of ability to refurbish their losses very very quickly. Uh.
You know, the great criticism of McClellan is that he
(36:02):
didn't fight. But McClellan, all he did was build the army.
And I would my claim here it is, here's the
here's the provocative thing I'm going to say today on
the show bo George McClellan won the war because he
built the army at the Telmac that Meade and Grant
got to use. It's all George McClellan. Drew Grueber listens
(36:23):
to this show, and Drew is going to be really
happy that I'm here singing the praises of George. Okay,
McClellan builds an army. Lee has to try and build
the Army of Northern Virginia back, and you know, much
to his, I guess disadvantage, Joseph Johnston didn't have as
(36:43):
much time to build the army Northern Virginia that McClellan
had to build the army at Potelomac. So what's what
where do you start? What's what's your what's your thoughts?
Speaker 7 (36:54):
Yeah, that's a great, great point, great great question.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (37:00):
I mean it's definitely definitely challenge for both armies to
kind of re consolidated. And this happens, you know, after
after to some extent, right after every campaign, after Chancellorsville,
Lee completely restructures the army, you know, dividing it into
three corps versus the two that he had had with
(37:21):
with Stonewall Jackson. But after Gettysburg. Uh, you know that
the loss of those junior officers really necessitates it in
both armies. And Mead, I mean, some of it, some
of it is out of his control, right, Uh. The
the eleventh Corps and the twelfth Corps ordered to the West. Uh,
(37:43):
you know, the twelfth Corps serving in the Chattanooga campaign.
So you know, some of that is is just what happens, right,
and he kind of has to to make up for that.
And what he ends up doing is he takes the
First Corps that you know is now under John Newton
(38:05):
and the Third Corps that was formerly under Dan Sickles,
and he kind of divides chops them up, divides them up,
and integrates them into the second, fifth, and sixth Corps.
So that's what you're gonna see, you know, going forward
during the overland campaign. No more First Corps, no more
(38:25):
third Cores. But you know, units like the Iron Brigade
are going to still exist even if you know they're
barely you know, kind of existing after after you know,
significant casualties at South Mountain and Antietam and Fredericksbury and Yettysburg.
But those units are going to still kind of retain
(38:48):
their integrity going forward. But the other the other advantage
that that Meat has over Lee is you know, in
Grant even going forward, almost for every casualty that they
that the Army the Potomac takes and this is exaggerating,
but you know, for almost every man that goes down,
he can pull a heavy artillery unit off the line
in Washington, d C. And And supplement his army. Lee
(39:13):
can't do that, right, So going forward, I mean that's
that's a challenge that that Lee is going to, you know,
face and an advantage that the Ulysses, S. Grant and
George Mead are going to have going forward. But I
will agree that that McClellan. Maybe maybe I won't say
(39:35):
that he won the war as a result of that,
but but that's it's definitely something you know, he's got.
Speaker 6 (39:41):
Going for him there. So I just had to be provocative,
that's all.
Speaker 7 (39:45):
That's fair, That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I mean, the thing is, you can't build a good
house without having a decent foundation.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
So shout out McClellan. I'll give credit.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Where credit is do. But you know, it is one
of those things that I think he nailed it. Evan
is is Lee does not have, you know, the reinforcements
that that Mead does.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
This is you know, Bobby Lee is not looking very
good in Northern Territory and Gettysburg is sort of a
gamble because his army needs supplies, you know, and the
fact that the matter is that, you know, really after this,
I mean, yeah, you know, we do have some you know,
Confederate you know victories in the East after Gettysburg. You know,
(40:25):
there are several, you know, instances of this. Of course,
one of the most notorious is the Master at Port Pillow,
you know, with you know, Nathan Bedford Forrest, which of
course is you know, made his legacy, you know what
it is today and still is you know, debated, talked
about and all that.
Speaker 6 (40:42):
You know that I would call that a victory though
it's a slaughterhouse. It wasn't even really a battle. It
was more or less just a capture of a fortification
and then slaughter of its garrison.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Right, you know, But I mean they're there are a
plethora of examples, you know, of veterant victories.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
You know, Knnisa Mountains a great one.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, you know, but the thing is that it just
doesn't hold the weight, you know, like it used to.
You know, It's like, okay, you've won a battle here
and there, but clearly the war is heavily favoring the
Union by this point.
Speaker 7 (41:16):
Yeah, and I mean even even before I mean Gettysburg.
And you know, I guess I'll play in Joe's sandbox
a little bit and you can go over to the west.
But yeah, yeah, I will be. I mean, if you
look at if you look at the you know, the
broad picture in eighteen sixty two, sixty three, sixty four,
you know, Lee's kind of meteoric rise to prominence with
(41:40):
the Army of Northern Virginia and this string of Confederate victories.
You know, it's it's there's success happening, right, But if
you look everywhere else, the Union Army is kind of
slowly winning the war in the background. And even though
Lee is getting all this press coverage right because he's
threatening Washington, DC. See, he's kind of in you know,
(42:02):
the backyard of Washington, d C. I guess it, you
know kind of makes the question what what would have happened?
I mean, that's that gets into you know, counter factuals.
But yeah, there's there's other things going on, right besides
just Robert Lee in the army in Northern Virginia.
Speaker 9 (42:23):
One of our one of our colleagues actually gives a lecture.
He calls it the British are not coming, and you know,
it obviously looks at you know, international relations. You know,
the Confederacy is looking to have, you know, and and
Britain was you know.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
One of them that was considered, but it never would
have you know, worked out in the long run. But
you know, it's it's just one of those things that
you know, we're starting to see the you know, decline of.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
The Confederacy in the West after Gettysburg.
Speaker 6 (42:55):
Yeah, you see the I'm one of those guys that
would argue that the fall, really the end is February
eighteen sixty two. You know, you lose for Henry, you
lose for Donaldson, you give up control of the combo,
and all of a sudden you have an open door
through the Confederate heartland, and you give Albert Sidney Johnston
the largest military district to command, but no resources to
(43:17):
garrison or command. And then to April sixty two, when
you lose the city in New Orleans, you've lost both
ends of the river. You may as well just go
ahead and give up there. But if you're gonna keep fighting,
I mean, November sixty three was a good time to
go ahead and quit two. And if not November sixty three,
well then certainly by July of sixty four, right right,
(43:39):
you would, right certainly no, and then of course not
just keep on keep on going. Now, Evan, we have
this kind of a new segment to the show. We
did this the other day well Bo was off on
on other duties as a sign. We're gonna play a
little word association at a little bit of association here.
(44:01):
So so Evan, we're gonna do just your one word,
one sentence if you need to reaction to a picture
that we throw up, right, uh, and let's just get
your get your thoughts.
Speaker 7 (44:17):
Oh gosh, okay, just just like adjectives, I guess then like.
Speaker 11 (44:22):
I mean, okay, oh man, I would say kind of
the good old boys club of the Army of the Potomac.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
That's I mean, that's that's interesting, right because the the
people in this picture, the most central one naturally is me.
But who else is here?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (44:48):
You have you have French there to meets it would
be meets right, but are left right, you have Governor
Kembell Warren. On the far left, you have uh, Henry Hunt,
the chief of Artillery, who is far underrated in my
opinion as a as an officer. When you have Andrew Humphries,
(45:08):
who need eventually chooses to become his chief of staff.
He keeps Dan Butterfield on for the Battle of Gettysburg. Uh,
just kind of out of not not as a courtesy necessarily,
but he inherits it from from Hooker. So Butterfield has
kind of the best understanding of the logistics and the
(45:29):
and the the setup of the army. So then Mead
chooses his friend Andrew Humphries to take over eventually. And
then on the far right, I think that's George Sykes,
if I'm not mistaken, who commands the Fifth Corps after
need a sense to command the Army of the Potomac.
So all I mean talking about McClellan, these are all
(45:51):
kind of I mean, I guess something that's debatable for some,
but you know, they they are leftovers from you know,
McClellan Army the Potomac of eighteen sixty two.
Speaker 6 (46:03):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (46:03):
And when Grant comes east, you know, he brings a
few people like Philip Sheridan with him. But you kind
of see a meeting of of you know, East meets
West in a sense in eighteen sixty four.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
I think we've got another one pulling up here. Yeah,
there we go.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
Oh man, I would say, miserable.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, war war, war war.
Speaker 6 (46:30):
Yeah, I mean clearly that's you know, the federal troops
that'd see the you know, the army or the Virginia
or ascuse me, the Army of Potomac. And we can
see kind of you know, the toll of war with
the exhaust of the war. And I got one more
for you.
Speaker 7 (46:48):
The stacking of arms at Appomatics.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
I believe that.
Speaker 7 (46:51):
Okay, yeah, I would. I would also say miserable. Miserable
for this it's just but yes, yes, soggy, that's yeah,
that's a good one. But also just I would say
sad in a sense. I just read Carolyn Jeney's Ends
of War, so great book about the you know, the
(47:15):
end of end of the Civil War and and just
kind of how sad it was for both sides. But
also you know, kind of sad in a sense because
you know, it begs the question when did the war
really end? Or you know, if it did, when did
it end?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So it's one of those things that's like, you know,
I guess another word you could use to describe this
pictures awkward, Like yeah, we just beat your ass, you know,
and this is what you have to show for.
Speaker 7 (47:43):
It, for sure.
Speaker 6 (47:46):
Yeah, And I think too, maybe a word like desperate, yeah,
because here's the or disparate, maybe even a better one
because here's the here's the end. You know, this is
what the last really four years it all led to,
and April sixty five, it's over one. Like I said earlier,
(48:06):
we could argue where it should have, could have would
have ended earlier on. But I think when we do
the little word exercise, right, you know, you do our
little word association, we get a chance to kind of,
you know, think about these images, think about these these
the subjects within them, and get a chance to kind
of reflect on the on the events themselves. Bo We've
(48:29):
got that other little a little segment, little tiny one
that's only been in a hallmark of the show forever.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
It's only been the cornerstone of the show for a
long time. So evant again, if you've watched the show
or listened to the show, you know that I'm I'm
terrified of what's up here, and sometimes it comes out
of here. One of those things was Boohicky, Boohicky describe
something and it's absolutely ridiculous, absolutely rubbish, something that has
(48:55):
taken away out of context, that people over inflate, whatever
or just some you know myth of you know, I
mean we obviously we've been talking about armies after Gettysburg.
So what do you find that people you know, misinterpret
or or completely get along about these you know, fighting
armies of the American Civil War, you know, following Gettysburg?
(49:16):
What do people get wrong?
Speaker 7 (49:19):
Good? Good question. Yeah, I guess, I guess I would
say it's not necessarily what people get wrong from a
like a factual standpoint, but maybe maybe more of a
misinterpretation that that this time period receives in that you know,
(49:39):
a lot of people, you know, Gettysburg ends and then
you know, there's nine months nothing really happens, and then
the overland campaign starts. And even though there's not maybe
necessarily a major campaign happening for the Army of the Potomac,
(49:59):
the the soldiers of both sides didn't know that, right,
So it's kind of kind of putting yourself in that
position and thinking, you know, as best you can, how
the soldiers felt. David McCullough would say, maybe, you know,
marinating your mind in that time period, you know, the
(50:20):
nineteenth century or eighteen sixty three, and just trying to
understand how they felt. And how they interpreted the Battle
of Gettysburg and the war at that point, and how
the war was going because a lot of these guys
they didn't I mean, we have hindsight, right, they didn't.
So they didn't know how much longer this war would
go on. They didn't know how much more fighting they
(50:42):
would have to endure. Yeah, I mean, and they they
for all they thought the Bristow Campaign or the or
you know, the mind run campaign.
Speaker 6 (50:51):
Could have been a war for them.
Speaker 7 (50:53):
So that I guess that that would be my answer
to that, not necessarily, you know, something that's flat out wrong,
but just kind of getting that sense of, you know,
they saw the war differently than we do today.
Speaker 6 (51:06):
Mm hmm. That's a great point, a great point.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Oh's So this is probably the first time I've ever
had a boring answer this question. I thankfully not. I
as much as I tried to not see my thirties,
now that I'm here, I'd like to see them through. However,
(51:32):
doctors advised me to abstain from my alcohol abuse at
least for a week until the antibiotics get out of
my system.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
So unfortunately, all I've gone is water.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
If it were up to me and you know, if
I were to break you know, hip hop, you know, confidentiality,
I would definitely have because my I had a wonderful
student for my birthday, which was last last Wednesday. A
student of mine gotten this wonderful Caribbean rum and I
(52:05):
had it last time we were on the show, and
it is probably one of the smoothest RUMs I think
I've ever had. It's a product of Panama's Bumboo bamboo rum.
So if I'm gonna be sick, I may as well
be drunk. But you know, I plan to live to
see thirty five at least. So unfortunately it's just water. Evin,
(52:28):
How about yourself?
Speaker 7 (52:30):
Yeah, I guess mine. I'm a little boring too, just
black coffee. So maybe maybe I don't know, maybe I'm
trying to marinate my mind in nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Yeah, oh you need is hear attack? Yeah? Yeah, there
you go, Joey.
Speaker 6 (52:45):
What you got?
Speaker 3 (52:46):
You know?
Speaker 6 (52:46):
It's green tea, Yeah, green tea and orange slices. That's
that's it. But delicious and always very refreshing, much like
you can refresh your water bottles or say computer tops,
but your laptop cases. By checking out some designs by
the Bearded Historian. You can go on his Etsy page
(53:09):
and look at all the various stickers. Still running a
promotion online, by the way, so check out Jeff Williams's designs.
And when you do that, know that you're helping a
friend of Homebrew History, but also our designer, our logo animator,
and our dear friend, the Bearded History. And I want
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Visit our buy me a coffee. You can find the
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(53:32):
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you haven't noticed already, there's more Homebrew History to be had.
And that means that we're recording episodes like flop Jacks
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are like a pancake factory right now. Bo and I
(53:54):
have been NonStop bringing in guests like Evan and Chris
mccowski and Kevin Levin and uh Andrew Harrison and Matthew Taylor.
Speaker 3 (54:02):
So we've got those Uh that's just growing. By the way,
do what I said we had Jane Low's on as well,
and we.
Speaker 6 (54:10):
Had Jane Lows on last week, so we continue to
bring on guests and everything. So you want to help
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(54:31):
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members only episodes. So check all that out and evan
anything any us words anything.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Uh. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (55:02):
I would just end with a with a quote that really,
I guess kind of sums up how that how the soldiers,
as particularly Union veterans, thought about Gettysburg after the battle
and after the war. And that's by a veteran of
the Eleventh Corps that fought on Cemetery Hill during the battle,
(55:23):
and he said at his monument's dedication, we think and
speak of other fields, but not as we do of Gettysburg.
I think that really sums up or you know, captures
how the members of the Army of the Potomac and
the Army Northern Virginia really felt about Gettysburg going forward
(55:44):
through through the war and and afterwards.
Speaker 6 (55:48):
And people want to get more from you, Evan. Where
can they find any of your articles or talks or anything.
Speaker 7 (55:54):
Yeah, you can find me on Emerging Civil War, it's
one of the contributors. You can also to find me
on the American Battlefield Trust YouTube channel for a few
few episodes or videos. And then I have my own
YouTube channel just my name, Evan Portman, as well as
an Instagram page that I post some history stuff on.
Speaker 6 (56:15):
So there we go. Good deal bo as always.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And one more thing, shout out to all of our
listeners that wish me a happy birthday. My thirties are here.
They're dirty, I think, I don't know, but anyway, thanks
a lot. I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (56:34):
Yeah, yeah, there we go. We're gonna go ahead and
uh play us on the outro go ahead and stay
with us. And if you're listening to us, you're watching us.
We'll catch you next time. Until then, cheers the crew.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
That whole crew, talking about whole crew and reminding the
whole crew a history pod past, going.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
Back to that past with littleness past. It might give
you a gass are.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
You by the spire, but you'll never get tired.
Speaker 5 (57:29):
Of whole crew. That whole grew
Speaker 4 (57:35):
Top scholars on the show with Joey Boo, That Cole Crew,
Whole Crew,
Whole crew, that whole crew, talking about whole brew, everybody,
the whole crew, a history pod past, going back to.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That past when the little best pass.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
It might need you a gass?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Are you biting inspired? But you'll never get tired.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
Of whole crew, that whole crew.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Top Scholars on show with Joey and Boo, that whole crew,
whole crew.
Speaker 6 (01:03):
Doesn't it?
Speaker 7 (01:04):
It?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Does? You know? I mean when, seriously, when, when? When?
When Bill came out with that, I'm like, how do
you do that? I'm just not that great.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
Yeah, I'm I can drop everything else. I'm just not
that great. That's all I got. Sorry, that's it. That's
the end of the that's the end of the show.
Play the again credits. Okay and uh uh so, welcome
back to Humber History. Welcome back, David Greenland. I had
(01:34):
a hat on I don't do Saint Patrick's Day. It's
the Italian.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's that in the angle file, the wrong the wrong eye,
wrong eye word, not not Irish.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
Yesterday everybody was eating corned beef and cabbage and I
was like meat balls and spaghetti. Sure, perhaps I'll go
and have some.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Parmersan duking it out in the culinary world.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
Yeah, yeah, although I regret not being able to get
up to a Saint Jose's alter because you know me,
I always liked an Italian cookie sessions an altered too
well my namesake, so you know.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Good point my middle namesake, I suppose I didn't.
Speaker 6 (02:18):
Even get to have. Didn't even get to have that.
So what have you been up to?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Man?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I hope our listeners had a better weekend than I did.
I found out over the weekend I've been treating a
little bit of strep throat with a max of selling
a little penicillin based antibiotic, and I found out that
I'm one of the lucky ten percent in the world
that might be a little allergic to something like penicillin,
which is arguably one of the greatest medical advancements in
(02:45):
the Western world. Then well that's about right for me.
It sucks, dude, I literally, so I was. I looked
down on my arms and I was like, wait a minute. Oh,
I was like, do I have the measles or the
plain or leprosy. Jesus Christ, it's all over my body.
It's like crazy. I feel like jumping in a cactus
(03:06):
patch right now. I'm just rolling around for funis but
it's finally starting to work its way out, thankfully.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
But that sucks. How about you?
Speaker 6 (03:18):
You know I don't have it that bad. You know,
things are great, They're they're not pennsilan ergic bad. I've
been doing a lot of reading, a lot of painting, yeah,
doing some little projects here and there, doing some commission painting.
And I do being really tired of seeing Winter uniforms
(03:43):
nineteen forty three forty four, kind of like it's starting
to make it where I'm seeing little white spots everywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Now, I bet I did see that you wrote a
little piece for Emerging Civil War on War Game, which
was pretty cool.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
I did, I did? I did you know that? Well,
a little bit of me that likes to game and
pushuldle toy soldiers around. It's like the one thing I
can do in my life that I can control. So,
you know, it makes those lets me.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Have command, It makes those snops is in your brain
just you know, fire off. It tickles the old brain.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
Well, speaking kind of like leadership of Armies and stuff.
I've been actually reading this book for Emerging Civil War
More Important than Good Generals by Jonathan Ingle it's a
study of the junior officers in the Army of the Tennessee.
And it has been it's been eye opening, you know,
(04:38):
because when we think about the war and you and
I we've had so many conversations battles in every battlefield
they go to, is you know, what were the general
officers thinking? You know, what was what was when we
went to Stones River was brag thinking? It was rosecrants thinking.
And what's been really really kind of eye opening about
this book is, no matter how good the army commanders are,
(05:01):
they're not the ones in the rank and file. They're
not on the battlefield directly, at least not they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
They shouldn't be.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
But it's those junior officers, you know, those those generally
younger lieutenants up through majors and you know, like colonels,
lieutenant colonels. But they this book has kind of shown
a lot about them. Because when you think about historiography,
right life of Johnny Red Wife, Billy Yank, the Bell
(05:28):
Wiley books they take it tell you about the private life.
You know, you can read generals and Blue, Generals and
Gray and get the top. So there's this big gap
in the middle that has been sort of touched on
here by by Angele. But anyways, if you're out there
you're looking for a good book to pick up, I
recommend this one and too. You can also find my
book review for Emerging Civil War up. Eventually, I don't know,
(05:53):
I haven't finished it yet, but it's almost done. By
the time you hear this, it will probably be probably finished.
We're gonna talk about We're gonna stick with that talk
a little civil war. But before we even do that,
we should mention that umber history is brought to you
by Civil War Trails. Civil War Trails, the world's largest
(06:13):
outdoor museum. Follow your Civil War journey across sixteen hundred
different sites and signs, and if you see a Civil
War Trails marker sign or a trail boys or follow
that path, grab yourself a selfie with a Civil War
Trail sign. Use the hashtag sign Selfie and help spread
the word about the world's largest doctor museum and a
(06:34):
great friend of the show, Civil War Trails. More information
down below in the description.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You know, I also think Civil War Trails is a
really good job, you know too, of telling a more
full story of you know, what goes on and Drew.
The guys over there do a fantastic job and we
love them as a sponsor of our show.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Great guys.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
My favorite civil war trail sign, I think still has
to be the Jewish experience in the Civil War. The
sign that Drew brought to Emerging Civil War last year.
That that was really great speaking. We've been talking a
lot about Emerging Civil War. Its almost like their sponsor
the show.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
But they they could be for a small see they
could be. We have one of the great emerging voices
in the Civil war field. Another writer for Emerging Civil War,
a twenty five year old student at WVU, Evan Portman.
(07:36):
I met him last year at Emerging Civil War alongside
the Unfiltered Historian and got to spend some time with
Tyler and Evan and all the gang there. So to
talk with us today about the armies of the Mead
and the armies in the East post Gettysburg, we have
(07:59):
with us, hey, Evan Portman and Evan in the third
slot there right in the middle. Now he's in a crossfire.
That's a good day. Might have to unmute you, Mike,
Evan Heaven, you have to unmute.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
There we go.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
You'd think you know, as many ZOOM meetings as I've
been on. Uh. Yeah, thanks, it's great to be here.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
Yeah, and uh so a little bit give us a
little bit of background. How'd you get into civil war
studies and into emerging civil war?
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Yeah? So, uh, it started when I was seven years old.
I'm from Pittsburgh originally, so go Pens. I'm sorry, but
uh we went to this my my dad and my
mom and I went to this uh outdoor show near
our our place, and for whatever reason, Gettysburg had a
(08:51):
had a table there and I just happened to pick
up a brochure from the their gift shop and I
could not put down after that. So, you know, a
few months later we watched my dad and I watched
the movie Gettysburg. I remember like the two or three
days in between, you know, part one and part two,
just being like on the edge of my seat, even
(09:14):
though I you know, nowadays you can just look it
up on Wikipedia how how the battle ends. But yeah,
and then and then a few months later after that,
we we took a trip to Gettysburg and it's uh,
the rest was history.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
I guess you could say that was waiting.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It seems it seems that, you know, any historian has
has the affliction to study history at a very early age.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, in a very similar way.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I also got interested in the American Civil War because
my father was also really big into the American Civil War.
We would we would watch the Blue and the Gray together,
and and it's one of those things that you know,
men at age thirty to thirty five, which is coming
up for you, Evan, I've just wanted a new decade
of my life.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I've hit my thirties and.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It doesn't hurt as bad as I thought it would,
despite you know, some of my time, despite my health
issues of being allergic to penicillin, because that blows. But
besides that, men either get you know, real big into
smoking meats or some American conflict, the Civil War, World
War two, World War two more so. And I think
(10:25):
we've hit that age already.
Speaker 6 (10:28):
I started. I got the leap on the thirty year
old crowd. I just figure, I'm not really that I
like to barbecue a little bit, but I could just
go someplace and get good barbecue. I don't even to
do it myself. I'm sure I just read about read
about Montgomery or Patent or Eichelberger or literally anything else
(10:49):
other than reality. So, Evan, we wanted to talk a
little bit about you know, the Army Northern Virginia and
the Army of the Potomac are storied right up to Gettysburg, right,
and that's like the big crescendo moment, and it's me
and it's me, and it's the Army North of Virginia.
It's the high water mark. And then it seems like
we go Gettysburg, okay, and then some other stuff happened, okay,
(11:10):
and then the end of the war.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So what what goes on?
Speaker 6 (11:15):
What's you know, what's the thing that draws us to
these armies post July of eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Yeah, well, I guess I would kind of argue that
it's what doesn't draw us to you know, that that
time between July eighteen sixty three and then you know,
as you said, we usually pick up the story in
May of eighteen sixty four, when when you know, Ulysses S.
Grant comes east to kind of take command of the
(11:44):
Army of the Potomac. Even though you know, a lot
of people don't realize that George Mead is still in
command of the Army of the Potomac even until the
surrender of Appomattox. But you know, there's kind of this lull,
you know, in the nine months or so in between
those two major campaigns where there's not a whole lot
(12:06):
going on. There's a lot of downtime, and there's you know,
there there are attempts made by George Mead to you know,
attack the Army of Northern Virginia in Virginia, but nothing
really comes of it until Ulysses s. Grant, you know,
kind of moves east and starts the overland campaign. So
I would say, you know, this this period is is
(12:29):
not really that exciting to a lot of people, but
you know, it's it's just as important to remember as
as kind of the you know, the storied campaign into
Pennsylvania in June and July of eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So Evan, it's kind of become fashionable almost because you know,
at least previous historians, not of our generation, because you know,
we're all close in age, we're really not that old.
But previous generations have put a lot of emphasis on
on Gettysburg and and a lot of people have you know,
dubbed Gettysburg to be the turning point, and it's kind
(13:05):
of been fashionable to kind of debunk that. What are
your opinions on that?
Speaker 7 (13:09):
I I'm so glad you you asked that question, because
I uh, that's the one of the talks that I've
I've given is I end with with how the the
you know, the Battle of Gettysburg is actually a turning point,
despite at least in my opinion, you know, or interpretation,
I guess you could say, but yeah, I mean, it's
certainly not like Vicksburg or you know, like Atlanta in
(13:32):
the sense that you know, the Mississippi River is captured,
or you know, a great Confederate rail hub is seized
by the Union. But I would I would argue, uh
that Gettysburg is a turning point because you know, it
kind of represents this this almost maybe psychological turning point
(13:56):
in the minds of the members of the Union Army
of the Potomac, where you know, they realize, you know,
on July first, second, and third, eighteen sixty three, that
they can win a stand up, you know, knockout fight
against Roberty Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia, where
before that, I mean, the you know, the Battle of
the Antietam is you know, technically, I guess, right, a
(14:19):
Union victory more or less, but not as maybe not
as straightforward, right, Whereas you know at Gettysburg it's it's
really the first time that they deliver this crushing blow
to Roberty Lee since he's taken command about a year
prior to that. So yeah, I would argue that that
it is a turning point, maybe not as strategically or
(14:44):
tactically you know, important as some of the other ones
that the people point out, but I think if you
if you read the letters and the diaries of you know,
the Union soldiers, they very much recognize that this is,
you know, kind of a turning moment in their service
during the war.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
Now, bo you know, I'm gonna jump all over that, right,
I have no choice. It's the Westerner in me yep.
But so this is kind of my thought on that Eavan, right,
is that there's there's turning points which I think we
could we could classify those in the the operational, strategic
and the tactical levels of warfare. Right, So, operationally and strategically,
(15:29):
Vicksburg is significantly more important than three days of fighting
in Adams County, Pennsylvania. On a morale level, though, which
now penetrates into like a whole other level of warfare
because now we're thinking on the ground the soldiers that
make up the army is a more of a social
history as approach to it. Vicksburg is still important, right
(15:54):
because forty seven days of fighting, it's finally over. It's
a great victory for Grant, It's a great victory in
the West. Lincoln himself is wowed and impressed. I don't
think that takes away at all anything from say a Gettysburg.
I actually find that Gettys, Vicksburg, Atlanta, they all seem
to kind of carry the same weight when it comes
(16:16):
to one of those morale factor kind of wins. Now,
this is where I want to throw my wrench into it.
Any of that really matter, right, because the thing is
to win, right, The thing is to deny supplies, deny
the ability to reinforce an army, to take away munitions,
(16:37):
to deprive supplies, to take away that vital political and
economic lifeline of the rebellion. All those things have to
be tied into that. I just don't like turning points,
but I think that's what it is, right, I like.
I think when we start saying like, oh, this is
a turning point, it makes it seem as though everything
(17:00):
builds to that moment and then all of a sudden,
now something has to be different. It's like we mentioned
in our episode with with Chris mccowski, right is Gettysburg
is a turning point, if only because it's in the
middle of the war, and it's just it's just chronologically
placed in the right spot where you go, oh, yeah,
that's a turning point. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And see, I'm one of those people that I like
when people identify turning points, you know, which is such
an arbitrary We just like putting things in boxes. I
do like putting things in boxes because historians love to
do that. But the thing is is it generates when
it generates a lot of discussion, you know, because my
friends we take outside the box. I'm noting the box away.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, it generates discussion. Because the thing is, if we
agreed on everything, you know, we wouldn't be here. We
wouldn't be discussing this. But I do like that. It's
we sort of have Evan in the east and Joe
in the west. So I'm very very much interested in
this but Evan, though I do agree that Gettysburg is
a turning point, is it the turning point?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I don't know. I doubt it.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And and then of course my opinion, which won't buy
you two cents in anything anywhere. But obviously, and that's
one of the things too that kind of messes with
the historical timeline in your brain, is that Vicksburg and
Gettysburg are going on around the same time.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
Yeah, And I mean that was very much known to
the to the Army the Potomac too, right. How they
they find out, you know, that that Vicksburg falls on
July ninth, and by that time they're pursuing Lee, you know,
through Maryland, and after hearing that, you know, they think
very much think this thing could be over in the
next week or so, you know, if we can can
(18:44):
trap Bobby Lee right up against the Potomac River and
destroy you know, the Confederate Army. So that that's also yeah,
I mean talk about like compartmentalizing things, right, you know,
we talk about, oh, the Western Theater and oh the
Eastern Theater, But where or does that really like where's
that magical line?
Speaker 9 (19:02):
Right?
Speaker 7 (19:02):
I mean there are lines that that they draw on
a map, right, you know that the military military districts
and everything, but they're can you know, they're connected, and
these these soldiers aren't fighting in in these little regions
that we you know, kind of kind of draw out.
So I think it's important to remember too.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
This is arbitrary lines on maps that that give me
things to argue about. You'd be nice to my arbitrary
lines on map.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
I love maps too. I'm a big map guy.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
So July third, around six o'clock in the evening, everything
has kind of died down that its charges over Lee's
Army has been turned around. The high water mark has
come and gone, what what do we see from Lee's
Army in the army Northern Virginia from that point forward
(19:56):
through to let's say, I don't know, bo August August third, fourth.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, at least before at the end of the year.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
So, I mean the other thing that that a lot
of people forget is the the last one of the
last clashes between you know, the Confederate and the Union
Army at Gettysburg is a is a Confederate victory. There's
a cavalry charge on the southern end of the field
by a Brigade under Ellen Ellen Farnsworth under Kilpatrick's division.
(20:29):
That that actually happens after the you know, the pickets
charge is repulsed and uh it's a failure. I mean
Farnsworth is killed and members of the the Texas Brigade
and and some of Law's Alabamians repulse that. So there's
definitely you know, everyone gets on meet. Oh he doesn't
(20:51):
you know, follow up, and well he kind of does,
but it just doesn't really work out. So immediately after
after pickets charge and and uh, you know the the defeat, uh,
Lee is gonna pull most of his his forces back
along Seminary Ridge. He uh he pulls Richard Yule's corps
(21:15):
back from you know, the Colps Hill sector area and
he uh he orders them to Oak Ridge, you know,
up up beyond uh the Lutheran Theological Seminary and they're
actually gonna dig in for the night of July third
and into July fourth.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
And that you know, everyone knows that that famous picture
of the three Confederate prisoners that you know, Getty's Burg,
that Matthew Brady takes and Shelby Foote talks about, you
know that on the on the ken Burns documentary. Well,
in the background, you can see they're kind of leaning
along breastworks, and those are breastworks that are used by
(21:55):
Robert E. Lee's man along Seminary Ridge during you know,
the evening of July third into July fourth, eighteen sixty three,
because they're kind of bracing for a Union assault. Of course,
that doesn't come, so Lee starts to make you know,
arrangements to withdraw his army back to Virginia. And he
(22:17):
he kind of devises this this two pronged approach, and
he he instructs General and Bowden, who is one of
Stewart's cavalry commanders, to take charge of the wagon trains
carry all of the supplies, all of the pigs and
you know, the hogs and the cows and the you know,
food stuffs that that that the Confederates come into Pennsylvania four.
(22:41):
That's one of his objectives. So he's not gonna leave
without any of that stuff. And also the the wagon
train of the wounded that he's going to, you know,
make sure to try and get back to Virginia. And
that's that that wagon train that stretches I think about
forty miles long or so is going to head out
(23:01):
the Chambersburg Pike, so you know, think like what north
west of Gettysburg. Then he's gonna take his army, his
three corps under you know, Ap Hill, James Longstreet, and
Richard Yule, and they're gonna head out the Fairfield Road,
which is more southwest, you know, kind of going back
(23:24):
the way they came. But that's the most direct route
back to the crossing where he wants to cross the
river around Williamsport, Maryland. And that's gonna give George Mead
a little bit of a more difficult time and he's
gonna have to take a more circuitous route to try
and cut Lee off. So that's really the the the
(23:44):
situation that Lee is facing in you know, in mid
July of eighteen sixty three. And of course he gets
to the river, he digs in because it's it's raining
and and and that's that's another you know challenge that's
facing him. Uh, these torrential downpours that are gonna make
things muddy and wagons are going to be you know,
(24:06):
difficult to move. And he gets to the river and
it's it's swallen, it's you know, it's it's overflowing and
the the Pontoon bridges that he's requested are here, so
he's gonna have to buy time for his army to
construct new bridges. And long story short, they do, and
he gets away across the Potomac without without too much
(24:28):
trouble from George Mead and the Army of the Potomac.
But once he gets back to Virginia, you know, he's
lost I think about five, five or six per Gaye
commanders during the you know, the Gettysburg campaign. He's lost
Dorsey Pender, who Lee said he thought would make a
core commander one day. So that's that's really at least,
(24:51):
you know, what I would argue is the uh, the
lasting impact or the legacy of the Gettysburg campaign for
Roberty Lee is losing. You know, Joe was talking about
those you know, those officers that you know aren't aren't
the generals, right, the core commanders, but they're they're not
quite enlisted men either, you know, the junior officers. Lee's
(25:14):
gonna have a tough time replacing those. So that's that's
that's I think what you know that the Battle of
Gettysburg really represents, as far as challenges go, from Roberty.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Lee Evan too. I wanted to ask how would you
how would you assess Lee oh Man? Yeah, yeah, how's that.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
As far as you mean after the battle goes, after.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
The battle after I mean this is this is one
of the situations that I find shows the weaknesses or
the strengths of an army commander. Right is, Okay, you've
been defeated in an open battle. Things clearly have gone
against you. You're in retreat. How do you conduct this retreat?
That's one of the things that you know, again jumping
(26:00):
back to the west, right, I'm going to stay in
my playground. You stay in yours, your arbitrary lines of playgrounds.
People jump all over John bell Hood for his handling
in the Tennessee campaign, But I look at the retreat
from Nashville back down through Alabama and the Mississippian. The
fact that he gets most of the army that he
(26:21):
started with, of the thirty three thousand man he goes
into Tennessee with, he gets eighteen thousand, six hundred of
them down into Mississippian out or down in Mississippi. That doesn't,
you know, account for his casualties along the way. But
still manages to get almost half of the army, if
not more than half of the army to safety, and
(26:41):
then administer it and get it into winter quarters. I
would see that it's a successful retreat and that the
Army of Tennessee wasn't completely destroyed. You could argue the
same thing for Lee earlier on in the war and
then see his kind of his escape strategies towards the
end of the war. But where you put him after Gettysburg.
Speaker 7 (27:02):
Yeah, I mean I would say something similar. You know,
he's he is able to get you know, most of
most of his guys out right back to Virginia. He's
he's able to kind of keep you know, meet at
arm's length and prevent him from attacking. Uh. And I
(27:23):
mean he is he is going to leave some some
of the you know soldiers, the wounded behind. Isaac Trimble
is probably the most well known of them.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (27:32):
He's you know, the Confederate surgeons are gonna have to
kind of determine who who is well enough to move
and who is not. And Isaac Tremble ends up in
a house in Gettysburg, and he's captured by the Union
army who tends to him. Uh, but yeah, I mean
also Lee, you know, by choosing the Fairfield Road, which
(27:52):
goes out of Gettysburg towards the the southwest. He's that's
gonna force uh uh forced me to take more of
a circubitous route to try and cut Lee off. So
you're seeing I mean, even though Lee makes this blunder
of you know, of ordering pickets charge or you know,
(28:14):
some might argue that the battle was lost on the
second day, uh you know, bye by ordering the Frank attacks,
but you're gonna see the same kind of Lee who
is you know, the wily gray fox right, Who's who
is you know, being ambitious but also kind of clever
(28:34):
too by uh you know, trying to make up for
his you know, the casualties that he just incurred, and
also uh you know, being out numbered by the federal force,
which she is for the entire war.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
So I mean, we've talked Bobby Lee, and there's a
lot to talk about, you know, regarding him.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And so I guess now what we have to do
is talk about meat. And I'm not talking honey wine either,
how exactly that which would be actually perfect for something
like this a homebrewer history. But I have an unfortunate
dry spell of Mead. But anyway, let's talk about General Mead.
How do you assess his abilities to command the Army
(29:17):
of the Potomac Afterghettysburg.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Yeah, I mean talk about you said it's it's become
kind of fashionable to say Gettysburg isn't a turning point, right, Well,
I think it's kind of become fashionable to defend Mead
or you know, kind of be a meat apologist or
you know whatnot. And I like, I think, especially in
(29:40):
the post war years, you know, the Mead Sickles affair
and everything, he's kind of h an unfortunate scapegoat. And
I think by you know, by far, Meat is the
best commander of the Army of the Potomac. But I
don't think that necessarily absolves him from you know, making
mistakes or blame. As far as attacking the Confederate Army
(30:05):
at Gettysburg. You know, some critics have said, well, he
should have he should have attacked right after Pickts charge
or something like that. I don't think that's that's reasonable
or practical or you know, at all really, given that,
you know, the Union Army lost a significant portion of
its men as well, as junior officers as well as
(30:26):
core commanders. Right, so, you know, the Army of the
Potomac is really licking its wounds on Cemetery Ridge, just
like the Confederates are too. However, there comes a point
right on on July twelfth, eleventh or twelfth, where he
confronts me or he confronts Lee on the banks of
the Ptomac, and Mead is really unsure as to the
(30:51):
strength of Lee's army, and he holds this Council of
War just like he does at the Lyster Farm, you know,
his headquarters on July second, and only two Corps commanders
vote that he should attack Lee. One of them is
Oliver Otis Howard, and the other one, I believe is
John Newton, who is commanding the first Corps at that time.
(31:13):
And Mead is is hesitant as a result because you know,
all of his his you know, uh, core commanders are
kind of we don't we don't really know the strength
of the Confederate army. So that prompts me to conduct
several reconnaissance and forces like he's you know, kind of
(31:34):
probing the Confederate line. He's also battling rain, so I mean,
he has significant challenges, uh, you know, facing him. But
then you know, the the the Union Army wakes up
the next morning and they see did Robert Lee's gone
from the trenches. So I think there there certainly was
an opportunity there. And of course Lincoln is you know,
(31:57):
is driven nuts about this, right he he cannot believe
that that Mead late Lee escape once again. And even
even the soldiers of the Union Army are are thinking that,
you know, they're they're they're coming off this euphoria victory.
You know, they've finally beaten the Confederate Army in a
stand up fight, and they think, they think that this
(32:19):
war could be over given you know, the fall of
Vicksburg and everything. So they're ready to fight and they're
ready to end it. And uh, Mead, Mead does not
launch any kind of significant attack, uh to at least try.
But that's that's my two cents.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
So no, I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
And I think Mead does, you know, exactly what he's
supposed to and he works with what he has. And
I honestly think, you know, because we we have the
ability of hindsight, right, we we have the maps, we
have the arbitrary lions we have, you know, you know,
effectively one hundred plus years of you know, historiography wrapping
around the American Civil War, Whereas in the time, I
(33:01):
think people have a hard time comprehending that there are,
you know, certain things that happen, whether it be weather,
whether it be supplies, whatever. You know, things are not
always you know, sunshiny and seventy five. You know, soldiers
are not always have their bellies full as they march,
you know, because I always make the argument, I'm like, yeah, physically,
(33:21):
soldiers march on their feet, but you know, metaphorically they
march on their stomach. Get me to march six miles
on an empty stomach, and I'll tell you a few
explicitive words that may not be worth you know, uttering here.
But no, I definitely think Need does exactly what he's
supposed to do. And I understand his ability to be cautious,
you know, because like you said, you know, he has
(33:41):
lost you know, core commanders, he has lost those NCOs,
those junior officers.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
But I also understand Lincoln's frustration.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know, because I mean we have to keep in mind,
this is summer of sixty three, you know, Lincoln knows
that in you know, a calendar year's time, he's going
to have to seek re election, you know, and how
great would it be, you know, for Lincoln to say
I won the American Civil War as the American president
in my first term.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 6 (34:14):
All right, good question for you. I want you to
kind of keep going on that idea to rebuild the
Army at Potomac, because, yeah, John Newton is now in
command of the First Corps. He's replacing John Reynolds, arguably
(34:36):
the most trusted of meads the corps commanders going into
all this, there's the bickering between Hancock and Doubleday in
the Second Corps. You've got Dan Sickles commanding the Third
Corps but wounded. So now that one's kind of up
in the air, there's a lot of friction because what
that's David Belbernie right, is commanding Third Corps at this point.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
Now I believe, I believe.
Speaker 10 (35:00):
So Yeah, so the the loo look at that I
pulled the arm cork commander out of my It's almost
like that reading of fans a couple of years ago
really helped out anyhow, So you're trying to rebuild the
Army of the Potomac in the same.
Speaker 6 (35:18):
Way that Lee has to try and rebuild the army
north of Virginia. And there's differences, right, So me dealing
with a lot of core commanders, a lot of division commanders,
Lee has to try and resource junior officers, regimental commanders,
company commanders. How do you even begin to evaluate the
(35:41):
effectiveness of both, Because I could tell you, you know,
hindsight and and to reading in these armies, it certainly
seems as though the Army of the Potomac was always
set up in a way that would bring it, you know,
those kind of ability to refurbish their losses very very quickly. Uh.
You know, the great criticism of McClellan is that he
(36:02):
didn't fight. But McClellan, all he did was build the army.
And I would my claim here it is, here's the
here's the provocative thing I'm going to say today on
the show bo George McClellan won the war because he
built the army at the Telmac that Meade and Grant
got to use. It's all George McClellan. Drew Grueber listens
(36:23):
to this show, and Drew is going to be really
happy that I'm here singing the praises of George. Okay,
McClellan builds an army. Lee has to try and build
the Army of Northern Virginia back, and you know, much
to his, I guess disadvantage, Joseph Johnston didn't have as
(36:43):
much time to build the army Northern Virginia that McClellan
had to build the army at Potelomac. So what's what
where do you start? What's what's your what's your thoughts?
Speaker 7 (36:54):
Yeah, that's a great, great point, great great question.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (37:00):
I mean it's definitely definitely challenge for both armies to
kind of re consolidated. And this happens, you know, after
after to some extent, right after every campaign, after Chancellorsville,
Lee completely restructures the army, you know, dividing it into
three corps versus the two that he had had with
(37:21):
with Stonewall Jackson. But after Gettysburg. Uh, you know that
the loss of those junior officers really necessitates it in
both armies. And Mead, I mean, some of it, some
of it is out of his control, right, Uh. The
the eleventh Corps and the twelfth Corps ordered to the West. Uh,
(37:43):
you know, the twelfth Corps serving in the Chattanooga campaign.
So you know, some of that is is just what happens, right,
and he kind of has to to make up for that.
And what he ends up doing is he takes the
First Corps that you know is now under John Newton
(38:05):
and the Third Corps that was formerly under Dan Sickles,
and he kind of divides chops them up, divides them up,
and integrates them into the second, fifth, and sixth Corps.
So that's what you're gonna see, you know, going forward
during the overland campaign. No more First Corps, no more
(38:25):
third Cores. But you know, units like the Iron Brigade
are going to still exist even if you know they're
barely you know, kind of existing after after you know,
significant casualties at South Mountain and Antietam and Fredericksbury and Yettysburg.
But those units are going to still kind of retain
(38:48):
their integrity going forward. But the other the other advantage
that that Meat has over Lee is you know, in
Grant even going forward, almost for every casualty that they
that the Army the Potomac takes and this is exaggerating,
but you know, for almost every man that goes down,
he can pull a heavy artillery unit off the line
in Washington, d C. And And supplement his army. Lee
(39:13):
can't do that, right, So going forward, I mean that's
that's a challenge that that Lee is going to, you know,
face and an advantage that the Ulysses, S. Grant and
George Mead are going to have going forward. But I
will agree that that McClellan. Maybe maybe I won't say
(39:35):
that he won the war as a result of that,
but but that's it's definitely something you know, he's got.
Speaker 6 (39:41):
Going for him there. So I just had to be provocative,
that's all.
Speaker 7 (39:45):
That's fair, That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I mean, the thing is, you can't build a good
house without having a decent foundation.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
So shout out McClellan. I'll give credit.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Where credit is do. But you know, it is one
of those things that I think he nailed it. Evan
is is Lee does not have, you know, the reinforcements
that that Mead does.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
This is you know, Bobby Lee is not looking very
good in Northern Territory and Gettysburg is sort of a
gamble because his army needs supplies, you know, and the
fact that the matter is that, you know, really after this,
I mean, yeah, you know, we do have some you know,
Confederate you know victories in the East after Gettysburg. You know,
(40:25):
there are several, you know, instances of this. Of course,
one of the most notorious is the Master at Port Pillow,
you know, with you know, Nathan Bedford Forrest, which of
course is you know, made his legacy, you know what
it is today and still is you know, debated, talked
about and all that.
Speaker 6 (40:42):
You know that I would call that a victory though
it's a slaughterhouse. It wasn't even really a battle. It
was more or less just a capture of a fortification
and then slaughter of its garrison.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Right, you know, But I mean they're there are a
plethora of examples, you know, of veterant victories.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
You know, Knnisa Mountains a great one.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, you know, but the thing is that it just
doesn't hold the weight, you know, like it used to.
You know, It's like, okay, you've won a battle here
and there, but clearly the war is heavily favoring the
Union by this point.
Speaker 7 (41:16):
Yeah, and I mean even even before I mean Gettysburg.
And you know, I guess I'll play in Joe's sandbox
a little bit and you can go over to the west.
But yeah, yeah, I will be. I mean, if you
look at if you look at the you know, the
broad picture in eighteen sixty two, sixty three, sixty four,
you know, Lee's kind of meteoric rise to prominence with
(41:40):
the Army of Northern Virginia and this string of Confederate victories.
You know, it's it's there's success happening, right, But if
you look everywhere else, the Union Army is kind of
slowly winning the war in the background. And even though
Lee is getting all this press coverage right because he's
threatening Washington, DC. See, he's kind of in you know,
(42:02):
the backyard of Washington, d C. I guess it, you
know kind of makes the question what what would have happened?
I mean, that's that gets into you know, counter factuals.
But yeah, there's there's other things going on, right besides
just Robert Lee in the army in Northern Virginia.
Speaker 9 (42:23):
One of our one of our colleagues actually gives a lecture.
He calls it the British are not coming, and you know,
it obviously looks at you know, international relations. You know,
the Confederacy is looking to have, you know, and and
Britain was you know.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
One of them that was considered, but it never would
have you know, worked out in the long run. But
you know, it's it's just one of those things that
you know, we're starting to see the you know, decline of.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
The Confederacy in the West after Gettysburg.
Speaker 6 (42:55):
Yeah, you see the I'm one of those guys that
would argue that the fall, really the end is February
eighteen sixty two. You know, you lose for Henry, you
lose for Donaldson, you give up control of the combo,
and all of a sudden you have an open door
through the Confederate heartland, and you give Albert Sidney Johnston
the largest military district to command, but no resources to
(43:17):
garrison or command. And then to April sixty two, when
you lose the city in New Orleans, you've lost both
ends of the river. You may as well just go
ahead and give up there. But if you're gonna keep fighting,
I mean, November sixty three was a good time to
go ahead and quit two. And if not November sixty three,
well then certainly by July of sixty four, right right,
(43:39):
you would, right certainly no, and then of course not
just keep on keep on going. Now, Evan, we have
this kind of a new segment to the show. We
did this the other day well Bo was off on
on other duties as a sign. We're gonna play a
little word association at a little bit of association here.
(44:01):
So so Evan, we're gonna do just your one word,
one sentence if you need to reaction to a picture
that we throw up, right, uh, and let's just get
your get your thoughts.
Speaker 7 (44:17):
Oh gosh, okay, just just like adjectives, I guess then like.
Speaker 11 (44:22):
I mean, okay, oh man, I would say kind of
the good old boys club of the Army of the Potomac.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
That's I mean, that's that's interesting, right because the the
people in this picture, the most central one naturally is me.
But who else is here?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (44:48):
You have you have French there to meets it would
be meets right, but are left right, you have Governor
Kembell Warren. On the far left, you have uh, Henry Hunt,
the chief of Artillery, who is far underrated in my
opinion as a as an officer. When you have Andrew Humphries,
(45:08):
who need eventually chooses to become his chief of staff.
He keeps Dan Butterfield on for the Battle of Gettysburg. Uh,
just kind of out of not not as a courtesy necessarily,
but he inherits it from from Hooker. So Butterfield has
kind of the best understanding of the logistics and the
(45:29):
and the the setup of the army. So then Mead
chooses his friend Andrew Humphries to take over eventually. And
then on the far right, I think that's George Sykes,
if I'm not mistaken, who commands the Fifth Corps after
need a sense to command the Army of the Potomac.
So all I mean talking about McClellan, these are all
(45:51):
kind of I mean, I guess something that's debatable for some,
but you know, they they are leftovers from you know,
McClellan Army the Potomac of eighteen sixty two.
Speaker 6 (46:03):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (46:03):
And when Grant comes east, you know, he brings a
few people like Philip Sheridan with him. But you kind
of see a meeting of of you know, East meets
West in a sense in eighteen sixty four.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
I think we've got another one pulling up here. Yeah,
there we go.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
Oh man, I would say, miserable.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, war war, war war.
Speaker 6 (46:30):
Yeah, I mean clearly that's you know, the federal troops
that'd see the you know, the army or the Virginia
or ascuse me, the Army of Potomac. And we can
see kind of you know, the toll of war with
the exhaust of the war. And I got one more
for you.
Speaker 7 (46:48):
The stacking of arms at Appomatics.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
I believe that.
Speaker 7 (46:51):
Okay, yeah, I would. I would also say miserable. Miserable
for this it's just but yes, yes, soggy, that's yeah,
that's a good one. But also just I would say
sad in a sense. I just read Carolyn Jeney's Ends
of War, so great book about the you know, the
(47:15):
end of end of the Civil War and and just
kind of how sad it was for both sides. But
also you know, kind of sad in a sense because
you know, it begs the question when did the war
really end? Or you know, if it did, when did
it end?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So it's one of those things that's like, you know,
I guess another word you could use to describe this
pictures awkward, Like yeah, we just beat your ass, you know,
and this is what you have to show for.
Speaker 7 (47:43):
It, for sure.
Speaker 6 (47:46):
Yeah, And I think too, maybe a word like desperate, yeah,
because here's the or disparate, maybe even a better one
because here's the here's the end. You know, this is
what the last really four years it all led to,
and April sixty five, it's over one. Like I said earlier,
(48:06):
we could argue where it should have, could have would
have ended earlier on. But I think when we do
the little word exercise, right, you know, you do our
little word association, we get a chance to kind of,
you know, think about these images, think about these these
the subjects within them, and get a chance to kind
of reflect on the on the events themselves. Bo We've
(48:29):
got that other little a little segment, little tiny one
that's only been in a hallmark of the show forever.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
It's only been the cornerstone of the show for a
long time. So evant again, if you've watched the show
or listened to the show, you know that I'm I'm
terrified of what's up here, and sometimes it comes out
of here. One of those things was Boohicky, Boohicky describe
something and it's absolutely ridiculous, absolutely rubbish, something that has
(48:55):
taken away out of context, that people over inflate, whatever
or just some you know myth of you know, I
mean we obviously we've been talking about armies after Gettysburg.
So what do you find that people you know, misinterpret
or or completely get along about these you know, fighting
armies of the American Civil War, you know, following Gettysburg?
(49:16):
What do people get wrong?
Speaker 7 (49:19):
Good? Good question. Yeah, I guess, I guess I would
say it's not necessarily what people get wrong from a
like a factual standpoint, but maybe maybe more of a
misinterpretation that that this time period receives in that you know,
(49:39):
a lot of people, you know, Gettysburg ends and then
you know, there's nine months nothing really happens, and then
the overland campaign starts. And even though there's not maybe
necessarily a major campaign happening for the Army of the Potomac,
(49:59):
the the soldiers of both sides didn't know that, right,
So it's kind of kind of putting yourself in that
position and thinking, you know, as best you can, how
the soldiers felt. David McCullough would say, maybe, you know,
marinating your mind in that time period, you know, the
(50:20):
nineteenth century or eighteen sixty three, and just trying to
understand how they felt. And how they interpreted the Battle
of Gettysburg and the war at that point, and how
the war was going because a lot of these guys
they didn't I mean, we have hindsight, right, they didn't.
So they didn't know how much longer this war would
go on. They didn't know how much more fighting they
(50:42):
would have to endure. Yeah, I mean, and they they
for all they thought the Bristow Campaign or the or
you know, the mind run campaign.
Speaker 6 (50:51):
Could have been a war for them.
Speaker 7 (50:53):
So that I guess that that would be my answer
to that, not necessarily, you know, something that's flat out wrong,
but just kind of getting that sense of, you know,
they saw the war differently than we do today.
Speaker 6 (51:06):
Mm hmm. That's a great point, a great point.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Oh's So this is probably the first time I've ever
had a boring answer this question. I thankfully not. I
as much as I tried to not see my thirties,
now that I'm here, I'd like to see them through. However,
(51:32):
doctors advised me to abstain from my alcohol abuse at
least for a week until the antibiotics get out of
my system.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
So unfortunately, all I've gone is water.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
If it were up to me and you know, if
I were to break you know, hip hop, you know, confidentiality,
I would definitely have because my I had a wonderful
student for my birthday, which was last last Wednesday. A
student of mine gotten this wonderful Caribbean rum and I
(52:05):
had it last time we were on the show, and
it is probably one of the smoothest RUMs I think
I've ever had. It's a product of Panama's Bumboo bamboo rum.
So if I'm gonna be sick, I may as well
be drunk. But you know, I plan to live to
see thirty five at least. So unfortunately it's just water. Evin,
(52:28):
How about yourself?
Speaker 7 (52:30):
Yeah, I guess mine. I'm a little boring too, just
black coffee. So maybe maybe I don't know, maybe I'm
trying to marinate my mind in nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Yeah, oh you need is hear attack? Yeah? Yeah, there
you go, Joey.
Speaker 6 (52:45):
What you got?
Speaker 3 (52:46):
You know?
Speaker 6 (52:46):
It's green tea, Yeah, green tea and orange slices. That's
that's it. But delicious and always very refreshing, much like
you can refresh your water bottles or say computer tops,
but your laptop cases. By checking out some designs by
the Bearded Historian. You can go on his Etsy page
(53:09):
and look at all the various stickers. Still running a
promotion online, by the way, so check out Jeff Williams's designs.
And when you do that, know that you're helping a
friend of Homebrew History, but also our designer, our logo animator,
and our dear friend, the Bearded History. And I want
to support the show. I want to help us out.
Visit our buy me a coffee. You can find the
link down below in the description, or if you're listening
(53:32):
to us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts, you can find that in these show notes
and descriptions. And just a little update for you if
you haven't noticed already, there's more Homebrew History to be had.
And that means that we're recording episodes like flop Jacks
right now. I mean we're just we're cranking out. We
are like a pancake factory right now. Bo and I
(53:54):
have been NonStop bringing in guests like Evan and Chris
mccowski and Kevin Levin and uh Andrew Harrison and Matthew Taylor.
Speaker 3 (54:02):
So we've got those Uh that's just growing. By the way,
do what I said we had Jane Low's on as well,
and we.
Speaker 6 (54:10):
Had Jane Lows on last week, so we continue to
bring on guests and everything. So you want to help
us visit the buying me a Coffee. But also, you know,
if you're you know, Penny pension, those five dollars and
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(54:31):
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And if you do go to the buy me a Coffee,
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(54:53):
members only episodes. So check all that out and evan
anything any us words anything.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Uh. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (55:02):
I would just end with a with a quote that really,
I guess kind of sums up how that how the soldiers,
as particularly Union veterans, thought about Gettysburg after the battle
and after the war. And that's by a veteran of
the Eleventh Corps that fought on Cemetery Hill during the battle,
(55:23):
and he said at his monument's dedication, we think and
speak of other fields, but not as we do of Gettysburg.
I think that really sums up or you know, captures
how the members of the Army of the Potomac and
the Army Northern Virginia really felt about Gettysburg going forward
(55:44):
through through the war and and afterwards.
Speaker 6 (55:48):
And people want to get more from you, Evan. Where
can they find any of your articles or talks or anything.
Speaker 7 (55:54):
Yeah, you can find me on Emerging Civil War, it's
one of the contributors. You can also to find me
on the American Battlefield Trust YouTube channel for a few
few episodes or videos. And then I have my own
YouTube channel just my name, Evan Portman, as well as
an Instagram page that I post some history stuff on.
Speaker 6 (56:15):
So there we go. Good deal bo as always.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And one more thing, shout out to all of our
listeners that wish me a happy birthday. My thirties are here.
They're dirty, I think, I don't know, but anyway, thanks
a lot. I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (56:34):
Yeah, yeah, there we go. We're gonna go ahead and
uh play us on the outro go ahead and stay
with us. And if you're listening to us, you're watching us.
We'll catch you next time. Until then, cheers the crew.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
That whole crew, talking about whole crew and reminding the
whole crew a history pod past, going.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
Back to that past with littleness past. It might give
you a gass are.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
You by the spire, but you'll never get tired.
Speaker 5 (57:29):
Of whole crew. That whole grew
Speaker 4 (57:35):
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