Livestream Recap: 1st Canadian PARA, with Norma Graham

Last week Home Brew went LIVE for the very first time on our YouTube channel. If you missed our chat with the amazing Norma Graham, now is your chance to get caught up on all things 1st Canadian Para. Check it out!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The past with the littlest cast. It might leave you
a guest, are you bide inspired? But you'll never get
tired up.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
To scholars on show.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
With Joey.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
That Oh it says we're live, but I'm looking at
us on the app and it doesn't agree.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
That's all somehow, some way.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Oh yeah, here we are, okay. I don't know how
that happened. I guess maybe the link.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Reaction. We're both delayed here.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Maybe everyone will see that the tab has turned live.
I don't know, I don't know. I'm hopeful. This is
the first time I've ever done this, so you knew
my efficiency with it was going to be kind of
in the sync.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
So be kind as well a little bit of we
should have tried this out first. I don't know. Something
like that good.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Even to James McNeil joining us all the way from Scotland.
I'm not even gonna attempt to say the name of
that town because I will be laughed off the international stage.
This is like that time I showed up in England
and I thought it was Tau Sester and I was
laughing at and they're like, no, you idiot, it's Toaster.
It's like, yeah, because I definitely would have figured that out.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, it's it's kind of like Choppatolas.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
To Cochopolis.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Oh goodness, well, this is exciting, this is fun. We've
got a great guest joining us, and I'm not gonna
waste any time. I'm gonna go ahead and switch us
over to three panel format and bring on our guest,
Norma Graham, to talk first Canadian para.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Hey, guys, how you doing.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
I mean, honestly, Norman is the person there here to
see they see enough of you and I Joey.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Uh we're both parroting.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
No, granted it's first Airborne, but you know, hey, all
it all comes out together, it all comes out.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
They're all the band of brothers after all.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Good guys, so we'll take it. She said it said,
it said the thing, she said, the band of brothers
thing there it is. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Well, we are.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Glad to have you and exciting excited to talk about. Uh.
You know, I think everybody on this podcast bo has
heard me drone on ad nauseum about British Airborne, so
it might fun to talk about an airborne opera and
an airborne unit that isn't British first, and second, what
a great way to close out Canada at War Week.

Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah, well, I just think it's wonderful that you've done
this because, as as you pointed out with Mike Bechtold,
I nag, I nag a lot, but it worked. It
ends to remember the Canadians. We were there. We were
on Juno Beach, were we were everywhere, we were in Burma,

(03:33):
I mean we were we were there for everything. So
I really appreciate you doing this this Canadian Canadians at
War Week.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Absolutely, and it's really fun because I think we get
to stretch our legs on something that we don't really
get to talk a whole lot, which is World War One.
So that was really fascinating, and the Brad's episode was
was really really informative. I felt like I'm earned a lot.

Speaker 6 (04:01):
And it's it's it's funny because right before the episode
went live, Joey inf me that somebody wrote a whole
diatribe of some something.

Speaker 5 (04:10):
But if we've learned anything, especially from G. D. Hewett
over there at the History Underground, sometimes we can make
fun of those, uh those YouTube comments from time to time.
So hopefully that's something that we can do later on.
But normal, let's let's talk about First Canadian Parachute Battalion.

(04:32):
So what are the early days of you know, first
Canadian pair look like?

Speaker 4 (04:37):
Well, before we start, you got a slide show for me, right, yes,
there it is. Before I start talking about it, I
want to say my thank you because I am I
am learning as I go. I'm a retired librarian and
this there was a pretty steep learning curve when you're

(05:00):
trying to become a military historian in your sixties. So
I want to first of all say thank you to
these fine people that have helped me out with this project,
and especially thank you to you guys for letting me
come on and talk about it. So next life. So

(05:24):
First Canadian Parachute Battalion was formed in nineteen forty two.
The idea was first put forward in nineteen forty, but
Canadian National Defense Headquarters refused to consider it. Canada had
been doing little in the interwar period to ensure the
military was capable of fighting a modern war. The horrific

(05:46):
losses of the Great War and the economic desperation of
the Depression were barriers too great to convince the government
to allocate funds to the military. But in nineteen forty
two there was a change of heart. It was I
guess they were catching up with the fact that the
Americans were doing it and the British were doing it,
and you know, maybe it was time we got on board.

(06:11):
So the call went out to currently serving volunteers who
had at least done their basic training to join the
first Canadian Parachute Battalion. And this is a this is
an actual photograph of the call going out, which it's
a little scanty on details, but you know, Sut sainct,

(06:33):
you know, just the screening was very tough. Only about
one in three applicants made it to the battalion, and
the training was even tougher, so about fifty percent of
those that tried to get in and were able to
stay in. Anyone who didn't make the grade was RTUD,

(06:57):
which was returned to unit. The examiners were looking for
men who were aggressive, introverted, and very self confident. So
the man who later led the battalion, Jeff Nicklin, was
a star player for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers football team,
and another Fraser Edie, had been a top notch hockey
player who had turned down a chance to go professional

(07:21):
with the Chicago Blackhawks in order to enlist. Some veterans
recalled that they just they wanted to be with the best.
They wanted this challenge, and others said, well, I saw
a friend of mine that had joined up, and boy,
that uniform would look pretty spiffy. So I joined up too.

(07:42):
But they were very young, you know, so their reasons
for joining buried. So for recruits still in Canada, the
training was to take place at Fort Benning and Georgia,
an agree that was made between between the government of

(08:03):
Canada and Washington, and then later on a training camp
was set up in Shiloh, Manitoba. Recruits that were already
serving in England they trained at Ringway. So the first
campera included Indigenous Canadians, Black Canadians, Asian Canadians, first and

(08:28):
second generation immigrants from all over Europe. And that diversity
was actually one of the greatest strengths, which is why
I put this quote on here from Fraser Edie that
the linguistic diversity actually worked out really well for them.

(08:51):
So next slide. The training was very demanding, both physically
and mentally. One reason for this is that that the
paratroopers needed to be able to achieve their objectives as
a company, as a platoon, small groups, as individuals. With

(09:12):
with parachute battalions, you can you know, you never know
if you're going to be able to go into action
as a group, so you know, you have to be
able to function at any in any sort of configuration.

(09:32):
They also needed to have almost superhuman stamina, as they
discovered during the Battle of Normandy, where they went days
and nights without sleep. If you couldn't keep up, you
or RT.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
You'd normally I was going to ask, is there very
similar to the rest of kind of British or American
which was it more similar to British or American airborne training,
because we know airborne in the US they're flying, you
know what, I think it's five jumps and then they're in.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
They're in.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
They're good, they're they're paratroopers. In the British air there's
a lot of static jumps.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
It depended on where they trained, right, So if they
were training in Fort Benning they trained in the American style,
then when they got to Britain, well that's the next
that's the next slide.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Actually, so that was just good timing.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, it really was so. Since Canada did not have
the extensive infrastructure that would be needed for a parachute battalion,
the Canadian Battalion was offered to and gratefully accepted by
six They're born in England. In the summer of nineteen

(10:53):
forty three they shipped out. They had to do more
jump training at Ringway for men that were coming from
Canada because they've been trained in the American style and
would henceforward need to follow the British standards for jumping.
So they continued weapons and tactics training at their base
in Bulford Carter Barracks in Bulford in Wiltshire. So Windy

(11:18):
Gail Sir Richard Gale, who was the led sixth there born,
said nice things about them. He said, I inspected the
first Canadian parachute battalion today. Any man with two eyes
in his head could not fail to see that here
is a fine battalion with all the makings of something magnificent.

(11:40):
It is, but I kind of winkle out of that statement.
They've got a ways to go. They have the makings,
but they're not quite there yet. And it's true they
needed a lot more training and especially in the in
the British style. So next slide, the just bit of

(12:00):
luck that these Canadian boys had was to be placed
in third Brigade under the command of Brigadier James Hill.
There could not possibly have been a better commanding officer
for a group of Canadians. Hill was tough, but fair.
He was courageous to a fault, and he led from

(12:22):
the front. So he was someone that the Canadians could respect.
With Canadians, you don't get respect automatically, you got to
earn it. Well, he earned it all the time too.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
I wanted to ask, because I'm just going to kind
of fire away with questions as we go.

Speaker 7 (12:42):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, sure, I was.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Going to ask.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
You know, thinking about leadership styles. These are highly trained,
highly motivated soldiers and they need highly trained, highly motivated
officers to need them. You know, you can't have somebody
who wants to be whose ambition in life is to
work behind a desk in command of paratroopers. So what's

(13:07):
the kind of the general morale and leadership style that
we see coming out of Canada and into six Airborne
when the Canadians make it over.

Speaker 8 (13:16):
Well, for James Hill, he loved the Canadians, and they
loved him back, and love is not too strong a
term for it.

Speaker 4 (13:27):
He said himself that, of course I loved the Canadians.
The reason I had a grip on them was that
I loved them. If you love people you're commanding and leading,
they also they always reciprocate. So I mean, there are
some military leaders in the Second World War who commanded

(13:52):
through fear, and you don't get the best out of,
as you say, highly motivated troops by just scaring them
half to death. He was like a father to them,
if your father was somebody who made you jump out
of airplane. But he yeah, he knew that they felt

(14:22):
kind of orphaned because they were away from Canada. They
had very little contact with other Canadians, almost none. They
served with British, and so he knew that other than
other than their pay and their uniforms, they had no
contact with the Canadian High Command or anything they were

(14:45):
part of British. So it was it was brilliant that
that Gail gave them to a man who could handle
them with care and with love but also respect. Yeah,

(15:07):
that's awesome, I answer your question.

Speaker 9 (15:10):
Yeah, that's got to be tough, you know, too, I mean,
especially because you mean, like you've you know, already mentioned,
is that, you know, the first Canadian para has American training,
you know, and they are under the leadership of British Command.

Speaker 5 (15:27):
And also paratroopers are sort of a new concept, you
know in World.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
War two militarism, right, you know, because paratroopers. And which
is It's funny.

Speaker 6 (15:37):
When I was getting ready for for this live episode,
I thought about a buddy of mine.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
A buddy of mine was he's retired now, but he
was part.

Speaker 5 (15:48):
Of an airborne battalion and he said, you know, I
don't know what officer convinced me that jumping out of
a perfectly good airplane, you know, I don't I don't
know who convinced me of that, but he needs to
be you know, broad down a pack because I'm like,
why am I jumping out of this perfectly good airport?

Speaker 8 (16:07):
You know?

Speaker 5 (16:07):
So I can imagine for you know, Brigadier Hill, that
this is because it is tough, you know too, to
lead with love, because that also makes the loss of
you know, his men even more brutal.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yeah, I didn't want to put up this this comment
here from from James. You know, troops need to have
confidence in their leaders and trust them not to waste
their lives. I mean that really strikes right at the
point of an Allied effort.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
In the war.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, through Normandy, through the Ardenne, through Operation Varsity. Brigadier
Hill was always a strong role model and a good
friend to his Canadians. One of the one of the
veterans said later, in the line of attack, you could
always find the Brigadier at your elbow. He was always

(17:00):
at the front. He was totally without fear. He's what
I always imagined as a great leader. So as I
say that was that it was just such a such
a lucky thing, because if they ended up with somebody
who looked down on them, condescended to them, you know,

(17:20):
treated them like they weren't they were just colonials. Uh,
it would not have gone well. They would not have
performed well.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Imagine getting on with like a Hicks or a Hacket
as their as their brigadier.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
So Hill seems to have worked.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Out what else can we what else can we talk about?
Let's keep going, Yeah, kind of rabbit holed here with
with j there's.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
A lot to talk about.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Well, he's he's extraordinary. So the the Airborne part of
Operation Overlord. D day was called Operation Tonga and Uh
as part of sixth Airborn. The Canadians were some of
the very first on the ground on that day. In fact,
some of them actually landed right before midnight on June fifth,

(18:09):
so they were some of the some of the first
boots on the ground. They were given several vital tasks
to achieve around their drop zone east of the Orange River,
and they were the furthest east of anybody the sixth Airborn,
So they were just inland from Sword Beach and they
their job was to basically interdict the Germans that were

(18:33):
inland from coming down to the beach to attack the
men that were coming in on boats, so they were
to blow up bridges. They were supposed to guard the
flank of their ninth Battalion at the Merville Battery and
then taking over German garrison and communications center at Vraville,

(18:55):
and then they were supposed to all rendezvous at l
Manial Crossroads. They were really well organized and ready to
take on the Nazis. Unfortunately, sixth Airborne drop was a
bit of a shit show due to several factors. The
drop was widely scattered, men came down all over the place,

(19:18):
in some cases many miles from their rendezvous point. Some
were dropped in flooded areas, and a few drowned due
to the heavy loads of equipment that they were carrying.
There was one guy, Private W. R. Kelly, came down.
He was wedged in a tree branch over a flooded
area with his head down, so his head was submerged

(19:40):
in the water and he had to keep lifting his
head up out of the water to breathe. And just
as he was running out of energy, it was so
exhausted he was ready to give up. He was discovered
and he was rescued. One of the medical officers, Colin Brebner,
came down in a tree and it was dark, right

(20:02):
in the middle of the night. Thinking he wasn't too
far off the ground, he cut himself loose and fell
about forty feet and broke his pelvis and ended up
being taken prisoner by the enemy. So First CANPARA lost
seventy percent of their very much needed weaponry and equipment.
Remember airborne troops are only able to carry light weapons

(20:25):
right bren guns, mortars, pistols, rifles. When they lost even
most of that due to the leg bags. They had
these leg bags that were supposed to they were supposed
to let them down with a rope. Just before they landed,
these leg bags were tearing open on the descent and
there was there went their guns right down into the dark.

(20:48):
So many were left mostly weaponless and lost in the
dark an unseen enemy.

Speaker 7 (20:55):
Next slide.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
So here's these pictures I just got at the archives.
The one campare archives in Petawawa Air Force Army Base
in northern Ontario just this beginning of this week.

Speaker 8 (21:18):
And so the.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
Battalion's A company was tasked to protect the left lank
of ninth Battalion that was under Colonel Lotway when they
took Meurville Battery. B company was to blow up the
Roebomb bridge and you can see a picture of the
Roebomb Bridge there that was like a reconnaissance photo, aerial

(21:43):
reconnaissance photo and the like. It was I think in
March that they took before D Day. And a C
company was to secure the drop zone and then moved
to a big manor house near Veraville which was an
enemy calm center and barracks. And that picture of the

(22:04):
building there that is the way that that's the gatehouse
of the chateau, so it, you know, looks pretty swanky,
but it's the gatehouse anyway. And then the picture in
the bottom is of the Murville battery before it was

(22:24):
even quite completed, and they had to take that out.
Ninth Battalion was tasked with taking that out. Neil Barber
has written a brilliant book about that the Ninth Battalion's fight,
called The Day the Doubles Dropped in which I highly
recommend if anybody's interested. So next to.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Grab Saul's book because I remembered that there was action
in there about about their actions at D Day. Yeah,
there it is, Dave. But yet again getting a great
shout out on the podcast to get on Homber history
because I keep trying to get in touch with them
and there's no way to do it.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
So I know how to do it. Talk to me later.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
There we go. Now we can do Now we're in business.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
Okay, So next slide. Yes, good. So, despite a determined
and aggressive enemy, the loss of equipment, and having to
achieve objections with objectives with a fraction of the men
that they had planned for, the battalion was able to
fulfill their tasks. In fact, all of the battalions at
Third Brigade were like it's nothing short of miraculous. It

(23:35):
was almost like a loads and fishes moment where you know,
there was supposed to be one hundred and fifty guys
to do something and there was twenty. But they still
pulled it off, which was amazing. They never retreated, abandoned,
or lost ground that they had defended. Major General Windy
Gale said, it was a great day for us when

(23:55):
the Canadian government deemed it fit to place the first
Canadian Pairs Shoot battalion under my command. You know how
magnificently that battalion has done so. These pictures here, the
one of the guy in the he's kind of in
a slit trench is a picture of one of one
of the one Camp Para guys in Normandy looking extremely tired.

(24:20):
The first I don't know, five four or five days
they had no no sleep and it was like really
aggressive counter attacks coming from the Germans, so it was
it was rough. And the one on the right is
the aid post origimental aid post at It was set
up at Lemoniel crossroads. And in the middle is the

(24:46):
monument at Lemonial to the for one Campara the commemorative monument.
They spent the whole summer in Normandy and we're sent
back to England in early September. And of the original
five hundred and forty four Canadians who jumped, only one
hundred and ninety seven returned, eighty three killed, one hundred

(25:11):
and eighty seven wounded, eighty seven taken prisoner of war,
mostly because of the scattered jump and some of them
coming down like miles away. Eight received decorations for courage.
So here we are back in Bulford in September. They

(25:32):
had a couple of weeks to rest up and relax,
and then they were thrown back into training. Their Canadian commander,
Colonel bradbrook was he'd been a really good administrator, but
when it came to fighting in Normandy, he wasn't as

(25:54):
aggressive as what was expected. And he he also was
very rarely at the front, you know, he wasn't up
there with his men, unlike the brigadier who often was
and got grievously wounded on D Day. So he managed
to he refused to be evacuated, but he was hurt.

(26:18):
So Bradbrooke was sent back to Canada. And was replaced
by Colonel Jeff Nicklin and his second in command was
Major Free Fraser Edie. So next slide, they didn't have
a lot of downtime. Nicklin was it was a slave driver,

(26:42):
but he was a slave driver because he wanted them to.
I mean, they've been they've been through it now he
knew what it took to survive that kind of rigor.
So he uh, he was hard on them because he
needed them to be at the top of their game.

(27:03):
But anyway, when they when they did have some downtime,
they like to visit the Rosen Crown Pub in Bulford,
and the pub has placed a plaque on the outside
wall of the building to remind customers to this day
to think of the Canadian boys that fought with the
sixth Airborn. Isn't that lovely? A friend, an Independent Company friend, Joe,

(27:27):
sent me this picture because that's his his pub.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Once again. The bonds of the Independent Company, they grow
stronger and stronger every.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
Day they do. So they do so it's amazing. It's
that somebody could write a PhD thesis about it. I swear, okay.
So the next slide, Now we're going to the Battle
of the.

Speaker 7 (27:49):
Bulge, we.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Want to jump in right here too, Yeah, you know,
you and I we did. We did an episode of
All Back with with Peter and talked about the battle
for two and a half hours home.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
It was two.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Episodes, and even then I still have like the the
Eddie Murphy raw tape of that somewhere else.

Speaker 8 (28:17):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
That was after Peter added a couple of calvinoses and
you know, but then you need even in my own
research on the Bulge that I'm doing as part of
my book on the Stevenson's Own Game Stevenson War, as
I got a little bit further and further into.

Speaker 10 (28:37):
The Bulls, there's this this massive kind of you know,
it's the it's the ideal American battle, right because it
were caught flat footed, ambushed, and and just it's.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Through American grit and determination to hold on. And every
time I read that, I go, yeah, but Montgomery got
command of a first Army and there were British troops
there and I was there, and so like it's an
American battle in memory, and it is an American battle,

(29:12):
I think rightfully so because it is really you know,
we just listened uh to James Holland and al Murray's
podcast series they did on the Ball and I just
finished rereading I want you to get that the they
have re reading Snow and Steel.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, because.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Okay, so so that I did it in under a
year is pretty amazing. Uh. It's kind of like reading
from the Bible. If you're gonna be one of those
people that says I'm gonna read the Bible every day,
you'll eventually get to the end of it. Peter's book
is eventually you'll get to the end of it. Came
away with the same the same feeling, right is a
It's an American battle by identity, it's an American battle

(29:57):
in memory, but it's an Allied f in actuality.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
I think of it kind of like the Alamo, except
you guys won eventually eventually.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Well, you know, hey, so did Hermie Fuller. He thought
it was the Alamo in the In the Ardennes, another
great book by friend of the show John McManis, Oh,
I didn't realize.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
That we're making connections all through Alabia.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
At about there every weekend.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
Anyway. So when when the Germans made their last ditch
effort to win the war Christmas nineteen forty four, in
the Ardennes. It was the Americans, of course, who bore
the brunch of the attacks, but the British. Six they
were born, including one can Para, the only Canadians to
take part, were called upon to assist in driving back
the enemy and protecting their American allies. Due to the

(30:52):
weather problems that precluded flights on December twenty sixth, the
paratroopers were loaded in ships and sent to Belgium. One
disgruntled paratrooper remarked, we were supposed to be paratroopers and
here we are being loaded into a damn boat. Fraser Edie,
who at the time was second in command of the unit,
understood that we were plugging a hole where the enemy

(31:15):
had broken through. Most of what the unit ended up
doing in the bulge was reconnaissance patrols and freezing their
asses off. It was brutally cold, and the urgency of
the situation meant that there wasn't time to get the
men properly kitted out in winter clothing. They were in
the same battle dress as they'd been in Normandy the

(31:36):
previous summer. For the first little while.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Dennison smock anytime.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Sergeant Dennis Lynn said, my prevalent memory of the ar
Den was that it was very cold. It seemed that
wherever we were going was always colder than the place
we just left. But the ever resourceful Canadians scrounged up
some blankets and even a sewing machine and made boot covers, hoods, ponchos,
and they even took sheets and made winter camouflage gear

(32:07):
for their patrols. Now, this is this will be interesting
to you, Joseph, if you're working on something to do
with the bolt. Interestingly, Fraser Edie recalled that, and this
is a quote from him. We were within about fifteen
kilometers of Bastowing, and some of us suggested we go
in and help them, help them out, help the Americans. However,

(32:31):
we were turned down by the Americans because they wanted
an American unit to break in and do the rescue work.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Something.

Speaker 7 (32:40):
Make of that what you will.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
It seems a little shortsighted, but what do I Yeah,
So next.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Line, Amy Amy makes a great point here, ken Eves
know how to work with us with snow and ice.

Speaker 11 (32:56):
Yeah, equipped Amy, it doesn't mean we like it.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Anyone from Tennessee or Louisiana could be with ice.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
So yeah. True.

Speaker 4 (33:09):
Anyway, so one of the things that the veterans of
one Campara all remembered was the shock and the horror
of discovering the massacre of civilians that banned in Belgium.
Thirty seven young boys and old men had been executed
and their bodies thrown in a bond out cellar in

(33:29):
retribution for the townspeople welcoming the Allies. So the Allies
had come in, the townspeople were ecstatic. Then the Allies
got driven out again and the Germans took revenge. Brigadier
Hill and Jeff Nicklin had the men file past the
bodies to imprint on them just what monstrous actions the

(33:50):
enemy was capable of, and they never forgot so James
Hill said, now this is the kind of people you're fighting.
In February of nineteen forty five, the battalion was sent
back to England to prepare for their next role. They
wouldn't have long to wait. Operation Varsity March twenty fourth,

(34:16):
bouncing the Rhine next line. In an unusual trip twist
of the usual story for Operation Varsity, the airborne troops
would be dropped in daytime after the ground troops had
made their first surge across the river. Rhine. The hope
was that the enemy would be distracted by the ground

(34:37):
troops so that the Airborne could land at their rear
and surprise them. Six Airborn's Major General Eric Boles announced, Well, gentlemen,
you'll be glad to know that this time we're not
going to be dropped down as a carrot held out
for the ground forces. Army and Navy are going to
storm across the Rhine, and just when they've gained Jerry's
attention in front Bingo, we dropped down behind them man

(35:00):
and was briefed in detail three times as to what
the plan was and what was expected of each of them.
Brigadier Hill had visited each of his battalions, the eighth,
the ninth, and one Canpara to offer encouragement to his
n CEOs. He said, if by any chance you should
happen to meet one of these huns in person, you
will treat him, gentlemen, with extreme disfavor.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
That's the quote of the night, meet him with extreme prejudice, Yes, Norman.
I got to ask about the quote from from Eric
Bowles that sounds like a pretty pointed criticism of the
airborne plan for Normandy and for Market garden. Yeah, well

(35:48):
this is really on the nose. We're not going to
be the carrot this time. So my question then, is
is this really the way that airborne should be used.

Speaker 12 (36:00):
You use them to exploit the already engaged enemy by
giving them now someone behind them to have to fight,
as opposed to you know, how they operated in Normandy
and how they operated in Holland, where there is effectively
this advanced element.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Now you use them as an exploitation, right, is that
it's certainly?

Speaker 4 (36:23):
I think it probably depends on the circumstances, you know,
because I don't think it would have worked in Normandy
to have dropped them, you know, right.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Because you've got to secure the draws and all the
artillery boundaries.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yeah, so it you know, geography, infrastructure, those kinds of
things play into it, into these kinds of decisions. I
would think it seems.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Like it works. I know there's a bad side to
Operation Varsity, but.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
It feels like it feels like it works.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Yeah. Part of it is that the Germans by this
point were running on fumes, so you know, it's it's
a you're really dealing with a different animal at this point.
I would think anyway, next line. So Brigadier Hill's plan

(37:28):
was to drop the twenty two hundred men of his
brigade in an area only eight hundred by one thousand
yards in six minutes. That's a tall order for an
airborne trot. But the men of one Canpera could not
say enough nice things about the American pilots who pulled

(37:51):
it off. It was mostly American pilots who were flowing
flying them in. They dropped them on a postage stamp
or a parachute battalion version of a postage stand up like.
They all came down what they were supposed to. So
they were to drop at ten hundred hours, and their

(38:12):
drop zone was in a clearing at the north end
of deersporter Wood, So I put a little box around.
I don't know if you can see it there, but
there's a wee little box. I should have made the
line thicker where it's his six Airborne Division l Z's
El's that's where they came down. So their drop zone

(38:36):
was in a clearing the north end of deersporter Wood,
about six miles northwest of Vasel, and it was very
obvious to the enemy as a potential drop zone. But
fortunately earlier in the morning. The German commander, not expecting
that there would ever be a daytime drop, had sent
some of his men to the river to try and
stop the land forces that had been surging over since

(39:00):
the night before, because he assumed there would not be
a daytime drop. So psych gotcha so.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Much, so much for all their tactical flexibility and their
military brilliance, right yeah, yeah, no.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
So eighth Battalion was to clear the enemy out of
the drop zone, and ninth Battalion was to secure the
Schneppenberg Ridge, which was manned by Fauchiemyeger who were you know,
pretty good troops, and one Canpero was to clear the
southwest corner, which was the most densely populated area with

(39:39):
several fortified farmhouses and barns from which the enemy was firing,
and they were also to take and hold a village
and some road junctions in the area. The operation planners
had been hopeful that a preliminary aerial bombardment of the
region would soften up the German defenses so that the

(39:59):
landing would be only weekly opposed. But it didn't work out.
It never does, have you noticed, It never does. Heavy
flag from the ground damaged or destroyed several of the
transport aircraft. There was a lot of American air crews
that jump masters and pilots lost their lives that day.

(40:23):
Major Bob Furlot of one CAMPERA recalled that he was
actually thrown out of the airplane rather than jumped, because
the Dakota he was in was hit by flack and
started burning. Veterans remembered the coolness and courage of the
pilots who were so determined to drop their men accurately

(40:44):
on the drop zone that they took no evasive action.
So here's a quote from Private Hellerude. As we were
approaching the drop zone, we were hit in the right
engine and tail section, killing the American sergeant jump master.
The plane was on and losing altitude fath on the
way down. I was able to see the plane hit
the ground and burst into flames. Yeah. Yeah, So they

(41:09):
always remembered that that felt pretty bad about it. The
battalion descended through heavy fire, with many of the men
recalling seeing bullet holes in their parachutes as they descended.
That'd be a little unnerving. Major Fraser Eadie, with bullets
flying all around him, sagged in his harness, pretending to
be dead, so the German gunners would direct their fire elsewhere.

(41:33):
The landing zone was hot as the Germans or as
the British and Canadians landed squarely on top of stiff opposition,
the Germans still determined to hold their ground. Several men
lay dead or wounded on the drop zone. It was,
as expected, chaotic, a lethal no man's land, but the
training held firm and every man displayed the initiative and

(41:54):
leadership needed regardless of rank. This was the secret weapon
of the pair shoot battalions. Their training was such that
they could function effectively in battle whether they had a
commanding officer giving them orders or not.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Next Norman, boy, I'm going to do that thing where
I make my provocative statement of the night, if that's
all right.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Sometimes I feel like the unsung the people.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Who get the most criticism in any of these airborne
operations that we've talked about, Right, Normandy, it's the air crews.
While they messed up the drops and so everybody ends
up scattered market gardens that they were dropping supplies to
the wrong places. There's problems with with husky and the
toes are being released too early. There's all these problems

(42:41):
nobody ever really I feel like I noticed is that
there's not a lot of credit ever, really given to
the men of Transport Command who are flying these missions
in unarmed aircraft over flat guns in some cases heavy
any aircraft batteries that are just asking away at them,

(43:01):
and they're only I guess they're only real objective is
to safely deliver their their troops to the drop zone
and then that's it. You know. Whatever happens to Air Transport.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Command pilots after that happens to them.

Speaker 7 (43:20):
You know.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
I feel like, you know what tonight boat on homber History,
We're gonna we're gonna dedicate this episode, this live episode
about First Canadian Para to Air Transport Command too, because
I feel like they've been almost completely washed over in
so much of so much of the narrative there we.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Go cheers to them.

Speaker 5 (43:42):
Yeah, and you know, Operation Varsity is one that's you know,
it's not the it's not your d Day, you know,
it's not your market Garden, but this and and norma,
I guess, you know, with the training.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Of you know, First Canadian Para, I mean, because I
can't imagine you know, being dropped in a hot ls
much less you know, in.

Speaker 5 (44:11):
Operation d Day, you know, being you know, landed in
an area that is foreign to you and you are
without weapons. And I think it's incredibly impressive. And I
didn't know this prior to you know, this episode here
is that well, first Nadian Para doesn't give up a
square inch of land, they don't retreat. I mean that

(44:31):
is impressive and it's difficult to you know, instill this
amount of training, you know, in these individuals that allow
them to do so.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
And that's just impressive to me.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Well, they were impressive, there's no notion about that. And
they knew it. Don't worry, they were aware.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
Somebody else who's impressive and knows it as the tattoot Historian.
Just wanted to hop in and and give a shout
out to John Heckman and the tattooed Historian over there
on his YouTube channel tuning in with us tonight. So
yeah him and looks like, looks like you've got a
follower here.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
Oh that's my kid, Hi.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Jason Dureau. And I'm sorry if I did that, Jason. Yeah,
Jason jumps in here to say I was confident that
we were reasonably well prepared. There was an enormous residual
self confidence in a parachute battalion. People don't wonder if
they can do things. And that, of course is from
Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Pike, commanding off your third para three

(45:41):
pair of British army er in the Falcons War in
nineteen eighty two. But he says that it seems as
though the Canadians embodied that at it.

Speaker 7 (45:50):
Hi.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Jason, Jason is a good friend of mine.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Well, we're glad to have Jason along with us.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
He's awesome. If you ever want to do a segment
on urban warfare, he's your guy. He is a specialist
in ur but he teaches it, but he's studied it extensively.
He can give you chapter and verse on Ortona is
brilliant anyway, So next slide, my DearS.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Do that.

Speaker 4 (46:23):
So these are pictures from Operation Varsity. C. Company jump
first and immediately assaulted the road junction and farms and
achieved their objectives in thirty minutes. This was despite losing
their senior leadership. Commander Major John Hanson was injured in
the drop, broke his collarbone, and Captain John Clancy was

(46:46):
taken prisoner almost immediately, but he later escaped captivity and
rejoined the company on April eighteenth, so about three weeks later.
Two sergeants organized the men to secure the objectives that
train and kicked in again that empowers every man to lead.
They then dug in and held off sporadic enemy counter

(47:08):
attacks for the next sixteen hours. B companies drops and
was very hot, but was brought under control quickly as
they overran the buildings that were their objectives and drove
the enemy out. Captain Sam McGowan showed up late to
the rendezvous point. He was bleeding from a head wound.
Fraser Edie saw that there was a hole in the

(47:30):
front of his helmet and a hole at the back
of his helmet, and he was aghast and he said,
He asked McGown, are you all right? And McGown said, well,
it got a bit of a headache. He turns out
gone in the front of his helmet, traveled around the
inside rim of the helmet, gone out back.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Luckiest man in the year award right there.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
Yeah, Yeah, his luck didn't hold sadly, but that he
was lucky. A company landed accurately at the eastern edge
of their drop zone and mounted an immediate attack on
buildings that were to be used as a battalion headquarters.
Enemy resistance was quashed when Company Sergeant Major George Green

(48:16):
led a piet detachment and cleared the houses. He received
a DCM Distinguished Conduct Medal for his courage and his resourcefulness.
Their objectives were all taken and held by early afternoon,
though there was still fighting taken place. Sergeant Andy Anderson
recalls his great relief when at about four thirty pm

(48:38):
he heard the sound of tanks and brend carriers coming
from the direction of the river, the British fifteenth Division
arriving to help with the mopping up. The total casualties
for the battle were twenty eight killed, thirty five wounded,
and four missing. Sadly, one of the killed was the
battalion commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Nicklin, His second in command,

(49:03):
Major Fraser Edie, became a lieutenant colonel and led the
battalion with courage and reserve for the resolve for the
rest of the war. He had previously acted as a
second in command in Normandy. After Nicklin was wounded in
July of forty four, so the men were accustomed to
Edie leading them. Fraser Edi said of his battalion, once

(49:24):
we dropped in on Operation Varsity, the battalion had become
purely a professional unit. In my opinion, there was none better.
Jesus okay, next slide, and this is quite a story.
The only member of six they are born to be
awarded a Victoria Cross. Was a Canadian medical orderly from

(49:48):
Toronto serving with the first Canadian Parachute Battalion at Operation Varsity.
Corporal Fred Topham, called Toppy by his fellow soldiers, was
a gentle giant of a man. Originally with Toronto's forty
eighth Highlanders. Toppy was strong and fit from working in
the mines of northern Ontario before the war. Toppy jumped

(50:11):
with C Company on March twenty fourth and immediately began
clearing casualties off the drop zone. When Toppy saw two
men from the Parachute Field Ambulance Battalion get shot and
killed on their way to pick up a wounded man,
he sprang into action and ran to the casualty. Bullets

(50:31):
were flying around him, and one laid open his cheek
and another hit him in the nose. Can you imagine
how much it hurt?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (50:43):
But Fraser Edie recalled that Toppy refused to be evacuated.
He went back out there again and again and continued
evacuating the drop zone until he had cleared it. It
wasn't until then that he finally agreed to sit down
and listen to reason and let the work on him.
Even then he refused to be evacuated. That in itself

(51:06):
probably would have won him a medal of some kind.
But Toppy wasn't done being a hero that day. On
his way back to the drop zone after being treated
at the aid station, he saw a burning Brend carrier
that had received a direct hit. The carrier was packed
with mortar ammunition that was ready to blow. Enemy mortar

(51:28):
bombs were still dropping all around. There were three badly
wounded men in the burning vehicle. Despite being ordered by
an officer not to approach the carrier top, he climbed
up on it and lifted each of the men out.
Seconds after Toppy leapt off the carrier, it exploded. Although
one of the men died of his injuries, two survived,

(51:50):
and Toppy arranged for their evacuation. He then continued back
to join his company. His reaction when he got the
news that he was to receive the VC was that
he would just lie low and wait for the fuss
to die down. He said that any he just did.
He said he'd just done what any man in his

(52:12):
outfit would have done. So very humble hero. So this picture,
that's the picture of Poppy. What's that?

Speaker 3 (52:22):
That seems to be the type of people that get
the VC. It's never the ones that say I'm out
to try and get a VC.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
To do with it?

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Yeah, Well, Toppy came back to Toronto after the war
and he worked for Toronto Hydro but unfortunately, and he
died in nineteen seventy four of a heart attack. So
he's only in his fifties. And the picture on the

(52:54):
right here was a plaque unveiled in his honor in
two thousand and seven. And the gentleman in the Burgundy
beret there is Yan Debreze, who was one of the
one of the veterans. So yoh yeah. So next slide,

(53:20):
This map is by Mike Bechtold.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
We know him.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
Mike does the best maps of anybody in the world.
I'm pretty sure he makes maps that even I can understand.
They are clear and concise and you can follow them easily.

Speaker 7 (53:41):
You know.

Speaker 4 (53:41):
You look at some maps and I you know, yeah,
this Mike is Mike is just he's so good at
it anyway, So this is this is from Mike. First
Canpara had truly approved itself in Operation Varsity, but there
was more work ahead of them. Before their war was finished.

(54:04):
They were sent eastward across Germany than north towards the Baltic.
This race for the Baltic was not just military, and
it become geopolitical as well. Churchill foresaw that Stalin would
not be held to the Yalta agreements and would seek
to impose Communism on all territory taken in Eastern Europe.

(54:26):
Not to be trusted. In other words, imagine that Churchill
knew a threat of tyranny when he saw it, and
so he sent orders direct to six there born, including
First Campera, directing them to make with all speed to
the Baltic coast city of Vismar. This city had been

(54:47):
allocated to the Soviets at Yalta, but its proximity to
the Danish border might have been too strong a territorial
temptation for Stalin. To withstand. Once the Red Army moved in,
it would be almost impossible to dislodge them, and losing
Denmark to the Soviets was not a desirable outcome, so
that was their objective. They had almost five hundred kilometers

(55:09):
of enemy filled territory to cover. Next slide, A pattern
of movement was established in the final days of March.
In first few weeks of April, Private eh Jackson said,
the routine is advanced as far as possible for the day,
dig in for the night, and hold. We're making about

(55:29):
fifteen miles per day, rotating with other companies and platoons.
For the point. Travel was on foot, on trucks or
riding tanks. There was fighting, but it was mostly easily
handed handled, and it was clear that the Germans were
giving up the ghost. I mentioned Sam McGowan on March
I think it was March thirtieth. They were his company

(55:52):
was walking along the road and there was a sudden
explosion and it it wasn't enemy, it wasn't an enemy attack.
A grenade in Sam's belt had exploded and killed him.
And I think I think that this had a bigger

(56:17):
impact on the men than any other death because it
was just so, it was so tragic and pointless. Anyway,
he's buried in the Holton War Cemetery. So these pictures
are that there are various conveyances to get to get

(56:43):
to their destination. The one in the center and the
bottom there. I don't know if you can see. At
the very bottom of that picture he's frying an egg
on a tank. So yeah, okay, yes, yes, next lie.

(57:03):
As they continued towards their goal, the number of German
POWs they were taking was becoming a problem. They didn't
have the men to needed to guard them, food to
feed them, or time to question them. This became especially
critical when they crossed the Elbe River at the end
of April. Not only German soldiers but German factory workers
and their families were streaming by them heading west. As

(57:26):
the Canadians headed east and the British the men of
First canperare. They just told the soldiers to hand over
their weapons and keep walking. Their orders were to get
to Vismar before the Soviets, and they were determined to
fulfill their orders, especially when Brigadier Hill asked them to
spearhead the advance. So I guess everybody can read that quote.

(57:48):
Yeah there we are, Yeah, no, yet's fine the next one.
The battalion was able to make good time, thanks in
part to the tanks of the Royal Scots, Grays and
the RASC troop carrier. Fraser Edie recalls that his conveyance
was being driven by Major Stan Waters, who's the fellow
with the beret there on that picture. He said, Stan

(58:11):
was a Calgary boy and a bit of a cowboy,
so he was driving his tank pretty fast. One paratrooper joked,
I never realized a Sherman tank could do sixty miles
an hour. That was a bit of an exaggeration. But
they traveled one hundred and twenty kilometers in twelve hours,
meeting little resistance. Lieutenant ALFH. Tucker recalled that they drove

(58:34):
through a German armor unit, right through a German armored unit,
and they passed us without doing a thing because they
were retreating from the Russians. We went through unit after
unit as we drove up. It must have been surreal.
There was a dust up with an American unit before
the journey to the Balkan or to the Baltic ended.
Fraser Edie recalled, we got up to a place called

(58:56):
Gadbush where an American armored regiment decided they were going
to cross our line and take our route up to Vismar.
I had the brigadier with me, so I was fairly
sure of my ground, and I just told the general
in charge of that division he'd better turn them around
or the battle was going to start right there. We
were going on that route. We were going to Vismar.
He was on the wrong route and he should have

(59:17):
been going up the main highway. By god, he back down,
So on we went. Fraser eating when he got old,
had this lovely growling voice, so hearing him say.

Speaker 7 (59:28):
That is just a scream.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Okay, next line one. Ken Perra and the Royal Scots
Grays reached Vismar on May second, just a few hours
ahead of the Red Army, and immediately set up roadblocks
on the eastern and northeastern sides of the town. They

(59:50):
dug in, not knowing how the meeting with the Red
Army was going to go. They'd hoped for the best,
but they were prepared for the worst. There were still
swarms of German troops heading Andy Anderson recalled that the
pile of weapons taken from the German soldiers as they
crossed into Allied held territory. Was twenty five feet long
and ten feet high. At four pm, c company, which

(01:00:13):
was covering the bridges at the east side of town,
met the first Red Army representative, a Soviet officer of
the third Tank Corps of the seventieth Army, commanded by Rokossovski.
A Russian officer arrived in a jeep with his driver,
noted the Battalion war diary. It was quite unofficial because
he had no idea that we were in Vizmar until

(01:00:35):
he came to our barrier. He'd come far in advance
of his own column and was quite put out to
find a sitting on what was the Russian's ultimate objective.
The next day, Sergeant Anderson and a small group that
accompanied him were sent with an interpreter as a patrol
to make a friendlier contact. First, Panpero was blessed with
some members who could speak Russian, one example of how

(01:01:00):
being a nation of immigrants was of great benefit. Once
the Soviets understood who the Canadians were, there was handshaking, hugs,
and the vodka bottles started to appear. Anderson and his
group did their level best to keep up with the
vodka intake, not wanting to give offense, but they ended
up passed out, sick or both. Anderson barely got them

(01:01:21):
back to his own to their own lines before he
was violently ill, which probably saved him from a bad hangover.
The relationship continued to be unstable. The Soviets insisted on
being allowed past Vismar. At one point, an exasperated Colonel
Fraser Edie informed an insistent Russian officer, one of mine

(01:01:41):
can take seven of yours any day of the week,
and if you don't believe me, try it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Good luck.

Speaker 4 (01:01:50):
Yeah. The Canadians did their best follow the divisional directive.
Dealings with the Russians will be, as far as possible,
governed by a spirit of friendliness and tolerance, tempered with firmness.
I guess that Fraser Edie was the firmness that was
easier said than done. Although the Canadians were not allowed
past the armed road block the Red Army had set

(01:02:12):
up a few dozen yards east of their own, except
for one courier jeep a day, the Russians were to
be allowed into the city. Russian access to Vismar created
nothing but trouble for the Canadians, who were appalled by
the behavior and poor discipline of the Soviets. Andy Andersen recalled,
although we had been briefed on what to look for

(01:02:32):
in terms of uniform, ranked discipline and so on, we
quickly found out that these were largely peasant ravel terribly undisciplined,
and determined to get into the city. They at times
appeared to be more our enemy than our ally, which
was a bit of foreshadowing. I think some of the
behavior was atrocious, even criminal. One private recalled that the

(01:02:54):
Russians would rape every female between nine and ninety that
they could get their hands on. There was also the
flood of displaced persons flooding into the Allied lines, which
was another headache for the for the troops. Next slide.
So this picture I loved the picture and the top

(01:03:18):
left corner there it's a Canadian who I guess he's
got a brand gun and I suppose he's supposed to be,
you know, keeping a weather eye out for trouble. But
he was looking pretty relaxed. He was he was chilling.
And the picture underneath is a bunch of of women

(01:03:40):
in that were displaced people that were coming in ahead
of the Russians. I guess, and the there's a a
wagon full of bread uh in front of them. That
it was the food that they were given to eat. Okay,
next slide. Ultimately, the impass had to be broken by

(01:04:05):
those higher up in the chain of command.

Speaker 11 (01:04:07):
There's your buddy there, Joe, it's in the storage unit.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
On May seventh, General Rokasovsky met with Field Marshal Montgomery
and Vismar to discuss a resolution, and Fraser Edie tells
a story about how Montgomery, trying to puff himself up
to look look intimidating, said how many armies do you command?

(01:04:40):
I command too, and Rakasovsky said, I command seven. It
was a bit deflating. I suspect anyway it was. It
was a political decision to default to the Yalta Accords,
and Vismar was to be surrendered the Russians. The war

(01:05:01):
against Germany ended on May eighth, but the friction at
Vismar remained for a few days yet, as the Canadians
were tasked with keeping order in the town. John Feduck
remembers when we were told to leave, the people of
Vismar begged and cried not to leave them with the Russians,
but there was no choice. On May nineteenth, first, Canpera

(01:05:22):
and the rest of the six their born troops left
Wismar forever, landing back in Bulford the next night. A
few weeks later, the Canadians were on their way home.
Next line, Brigadier Hill praised the Canadians for their role
in the fighting trek across Germany, where we more than

(01:05:42):
kept pace with the armored division on our flank, which
ended with our battalion the Canadians entering the town of
Vismar on the Baltic Sea, three hours ahead of the Russians,
as Sir Winston Churchill had personally demanded. So there's a
letter there that James Hill wrote to Fraser Dy just

(01:06:05):
after they embarked for home, and that telegram there is
from Fraser Edy to his wife saying that he's on
his way home, signed it with love and kisses. He
hadn't seen his wife since you know, nineteen forty two. Sogracious.

(01:06:28):
So next slide of the men he called my Canadians.
Brigadier James Hill later wrote, what splendid ambassadors for their
great country. They had proved to be whilst isolated and
serving with the six they were born. Throughout their war
in Europe, they were called upon and paid the full

(01:06:49):
price for freedom and service to their country. I thanked
the Almighty for the privilege of being their brigade commander.
And this picture is of a mountain in the Rocky
Mountains in Western Canada that they've renamed ex Quelus, which
means that that's the slogan I guess of the of

(01:07:12):
the airborne. It means from the sky or from the heavens.
So that that there's that commemorative, uh, naming of a
mountain in their honor. M Yeah, So there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
I'm done, Noma. I mean, first of all, thank you,
and this was great.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
I I do want to go back real quick, you know,
back to back to the man.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
What do you think that meeting was like?

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
Right?

Speaker 7 (01:07:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Said it might have been a little deflating for Monty
little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
I mean, here's a guy Rukasovski. He has outlasted Stalin's purges,
He's fought against the Germans on on the Eastern Front.
And here's Monty equally as determined to destroy the Nazis
and bringing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
The war to an end.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Here's these two guys having a meeting to determine the
geopolitical future of a city it couldn't have been. And
knowing Monty's oh penchant for the dramatic and the theatrical,
what is any good accounts of what the meeting was
actually like?

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
I don't think not that I found. There may have,
there may exist such, but I have not seen seen
anything other than that remark of Fraser eighties. He he
was Fraser Edy was not overly impressed with Montgomery.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
I'm sorry, it's okay. There's a lot of people that aren't.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
But as James McNeil points out, Monty had a bullet
proof vega.

Speaker 4 (01:09:01):
I just want to say to James, thank you so much.
James is in England, so it's like it's going on
for two in the morning, probably it's ten after one
in the morning. James is such a mench he has.
He stays up late to listen to me belather and
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
And get a shout out here from Susan you this
is great research and storytelling, James first class. And Jason
jumps in to say, as a qualified paratrooper military story
and more importantly a friend of Normous, I quite enjoyed
her review of One can Parabat Battalion. Thank you Norma

(01:09:42):
and Homebrew history ex squals.

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
So that's really appreciate you showing up there, my friend.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
Norm We got one question for you. It does come
from Jason. I'm curious if Norma found any evidence discussing
the relationship between first Canadian Pair Battalion and with British
paratroopers in general, good bad that are both damned colonials
were generally liked.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Well. Actually that that letter from James Hill at the
end there he states there that there was never a
moment's friction between the British battalions and the Canadians. They
got along great, he did. He did say that there

(01:10:30):
was there was a noticeable difference between them. I have
a quote from him. He says, this was on June fourth,
nineteen forty four, So that you know, right before D Day.
All day long the Canadians with whom I pitched my
tent were playing games, throwing a ball around, and I thought,

(01:10:50):
what tremendous vitality these Canadians have got. Then in the
afternoon I would visit my English battalions and find half
a dozen chaps kicking of football all and the rest asleep.
I thought to myself, here is the difference between the
old world and the new the Elaine and Jois de
Vive of the new world of Canadians and the maturity

(01:11:12):
and then not worrying, not bothering and having a good
nap while we can of the British. So that. But yeah, Jane,
I mean, I don't know if James Hill was smoothing
over some rough edges, but he he stated that there
was that they got along great. There was a moment

(01:11:35):
that could have flared into a problem on D Day when, uh,
like the couple of guys including Dan Hartigan, Ah, we're
trying to find their way back to where they were
supposed to be from wherever they'd landed, and they kind

(01:11:56):
of washed up with another with a lieutenant from nine
Battalion who was who went to Colonel Otway who was
They were waiting to go up against the Merville battery,
and uh, the lieutenant said to Otway, I've brought a
couple of Canadians, and hot Way said, well, what good

(01:12:20):
are they? They don't what do they know? They don't
know anything. And what he meant was he had trained
his ninth battalion to a fairly well. And you know,
they had had really intense training over what they were
going to do, and the Canadians hadn't been part of
that because that wasn't part of their their you know,

(01:12:40):
remitt for this operation. But and then they took it
rather badly. So the uh uh private Melon that that
Hartigan was with said, we know just as much as
any bloody limey. But and apparently there was dead silence,

(01:13:04):
like they could have gotten a apoplectic, like this guy
would talk back to him. But that's the only sort
of very minor bit of friction that I have discovered.
And it's you know more, they.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
Seem to get along fun now bore before we say
ta ta, you know what it's time for. It's time
for that awkward moment where everybody sits really quiet while
I talked for about forty seconds. But did you know
that Homber History is brought to you by Civil War Trails.
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(01:13:44):
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(01:14:06):
That way you can follow yourself along your own Civil
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(01:14:28):
a month gets you access to wonderful scholars, motile historians
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I'm officially decked out in the British Militaria today. I

(01:14:52):
didn't plan that when I woke up, But here we are.
So go down to the Bearded Historian's website check out
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Hombrew History now here's weekly. You can catch us every Monday,
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we forgot. Yes, every week you will get an episode
of homber History every single week. Now bringing it back

(01:15:16):
to Bo and Norma, who's that patiently and not at
all awkwardly to my side? While I did that for
my favorite Oh no, for Bo's favorite segments.

Speaker 5 (01:15:25):
Yes, normally, I'm excited that she's excited. Okay, So what
boo Higgy is is something that is either misinterpreted, something
that is just absolute rubbish, something that is just completely
wrong that people, you know, have this sort of fascination

(01:15:46):
of mythos that is clearly not founded in any good historiography.
Uh So, what is something that you want to dispel?
What was a myth about first Canadian para that you
want to dispel?

Speaker 8 (01:15:57):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
What's the boo higy?

Speaker 4 (01:15:59):
Well, it's more sort of generally about Canadians. Okay, we're
not that nice. I mean, we're we're nice until we're not.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Until some.

Speaker 4 (01:16:21):
Of the some of the toughest, meanest soldiers in either
of the World Wars were Canadians.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:33):
So, and I have I have a quote. I have
a quote which might dispel some of the the myths
around Canadian politeness.

Speaker 7 (01:16:46):
A couple of a couple of quotes.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
Actually, one is I read recently that a woman was
remembering her grandfather who's was in I guess the probably
the Air Force, and and he was serving, and he
was going down to the pubby always took a Canadian
with him because they were good in the bar fight.

(01:17:09):
And an unnamed American officer, and this is a quote said,
if fuck and frontal were removed from the military vocabulary,
the Canadian Army would have been both speechless and unable
to attack.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
That's the quote of the night. Oh my god, amazing.
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:17:40):
Yeah, that's what that's that's one of my favorites, you know. So,
so when when you hear Canadians dropping F bombs, it's
we have a proud to tradition of dropping F bombs.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Just like a little salt and pepper. You know, you
just kind of use it everywhere. Spice a few things up.

Speaker 4 (01:17:59):
Spy. It's a noun, it's a verb, it's an adjective, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
You know, it's a sentence of flavor and answer.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
But you told me about that, yeah the first time.

Speaker 4 (01:18:13):
All Right, I love bicky. By the way, is my
new favorite word.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
You look at that bough in the gospel.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Just I've told Joey this.

Speaker 6 (01:18:23):
I'm kind of scared of what's in here because sometimes
it comes out of here.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
Uh, I'm glad you like it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
I'm gonna be I'm gonna be polite and throw out
to Norma. This is homeberg history where we've all got
a drink in our hands. So what is in your cup?

Speaker 4 (01:18:42):
Well, it's just water. I'm afraid because I'm old and
I'm trying to nurse along whatever few brain cells I
have left.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Well, I think you did, but I do have.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
It in my damn Buster mug.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
There we go.

Speaker 4 (01:18:59):
Did you know that thirty of the members of the
Dambuster crew the crews were Canadian I do now.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
I knew that only because it's in the book Dambusters.
My friend of the show, James James.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
Yeah, everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
I figured we worked there eventually. Bo. How about yourself?

Speaker 5 (01:19:22):
Yeah, so there's only and Joey knows my problem with
medical doctors.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
You better be drinking Canadian Scotch.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
At this time.

Speaker 5 (01:19:33):
Someone who listens to the show. Should My address is
one four seven. You can send it my way. No,
But unfortunately I actually have something that's kind of close.
Doctor mcgillicutties are a Michigan based company, h and doctor

(01:19:53):
mcgillicutties makes a fine BlackBerry whiskey.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
So that is what I've been sitting on. That is
what it's in my cup. And that was what was
in my cup.

Speaker 5 (01:20:01):
And as you can clearly see, I've been drinking all
evening to First Canadian.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
Paris, so it is now dry, but that was what's
in my cup. How about yourself, Joey?

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
That sounds really good.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
It is really good. Is very good.

Speaker 4 (01:20:19):
You're making me rethink my my non drinking.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
Well, Bo, I will let you down as usual, but norma, Hey,
I'm here to help you out with you know, Hey,
I've had memon ginger and Manuka honey green tea, so
that was that was what was in there.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
There we go.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):
I've let you bow down yet again.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
I'm the resident alcoholic over here. What can I say?

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
Uh, Norma, I I so enjoyed this discussion. I think
it's timely, right with geo political crises the way that
they are today, oh yeah, and at the saying things
about about Canada, and I thought it would be timely
to do a whole series on why you shouldn't screw

(01:21:14):
around with the Canadians World War one, World War two,
and first Canadian para. I feel like we're the great
kind of way to tie all that up. So thank
you for participating in Canada at War Week, and thanks
to all of you who tuned in tonight. James says
that you were channeling your inner Scott, and Susan says,

(01:21:36):
I need Canadian gear. Well you know if you're buying,
but I think we'll finish with that one. Bravo, Norma,
thank you so.

Speaker 4 (01:21:44):
Much, Thanks Susan, Thanks guys, it's been a spice.

Speaker 5 (01:21:50):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
Viewers, you can catch up with us and you can
go back and watch this on the replay starting tomorrow.
BO until next time, You're everybody, Here's everybody.

Speaker 7 (01:22:02):
Here's to you, whole crew, that whole.

Speaker 1 (01:22:25):
Crew talking about whole grew. Everybody needs Total Crew, a history.

Speaker 5 (01:22:34):
Pod past, going back to.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
The past with the little past.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
It might leave you a gas are.

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
You biting inspired?

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
But you'll never get tired of whole crew, that whole.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Top scholars on shows Joey

Speaker 5 (01:23:02):
That's Cords Grow, Cole Grow