Thunder Run: Meiktila 1945, with Jack Bowsher

Episode Transcript
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(05:00):
your appetites. What did for this episode? But bo I,
you know, I think you know other than other than
our usual right, We're we're just here catching up at
this point, and we'll bring on Jack Baucher, our guest,
to do a discussion on the Battle of Mick Teela.

Speaker 4 (05:24):
To do to do what he does best.

Speaker 6 (05:28):
Yeah, the guys, there he is. I had to figure
it out for a second. I kind of got lost
on the on the menu there, but there it's there.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Jack, welcome to the show.

Speaker 8 (05:40):
Yeah, thank you very much, guys for having me and
bo It's interesting. You know you're saying your students got
their finals now, and you know, I'm a head of
history at a secondary school, so like a high school
in my in my Necker Woods and again, Mike, guys
have just finished.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
They go, I think we'll study, leave and they get.

Speaker 8 (05:54):
A few weeks off to revise before the actual example start.

Speaker 6 (05:59):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (06:00):
I think my students would love that. Yeah, they are
not praising my name at the point. They are definitely
cursing me out for sure. I do that on a
weekly basis, true, nothing new.

Speaker 6 (06:13):
Sometimes daily, So you can let them know they're in
a good company.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
So Jack you.

Speaker 6 (06:19):
Let's just for everyone's reference, let's just talk a little
bit about what it is you do. Not only are
you a teacher, but you've also written an incredible book
in Forgotten Armor Tank Warfare, And there's a banner right
over your face Forgotten Armor Tank Warfare and Burma, which again,
if the bookshelves were behind me, which they will be soon,
you would see it back there because I picked up

(06:42):
a copy that we have ways fast and you even
signed it, which was great. So now I've just got that.
But you've also got a podcast with friend of the
show and just all around great guy doctor Rob Lyman,
and I know we keep bringing up we have wasice Fest,
but one more time there I was stood in a

(07:04):
field with millions of other war wafflers around me, and
Rob Lyman walks up behind me and goes, why ju Ricky.
As I live and breathe, you instantly that it was
Rob Long. I didn't even need to turn around. I
could just I could sense him. But you've got the
Forgotten War podcast with with Doctor Lyman and you guys

(07:25):
bringing attention to I don't know that I want to
call it forgotten because I feel like we do a
good job on this podcast for how there's your podcast
and now I feel like more so on the popular
memory of the war talking about Burma. But you bring
a kind of attention to an underrated, underappreciated theater of

(07:47):
the war. And now you've got your new book coming
out with June, right, yeah, and that's the topic for today.

Speaker 8 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, so very exciting and yeah, you're absolutely right.
Rob is generally one of the nicest people around. You know,
he's part of the inspiration for my interest in the
Burma theater. Anyway, so to have, you know, a number
of years later, to have sort of partnered up with
him in the podcast, you know, actually has genuinely been
drink and true. But I'm so excited about this particular

(08:21):
book thunder On because it is a passion project, because
it is such an unknown topic. You know, the word
forgotten is thrown around a lot, and you know, I've
you know, I've got a book out of podcast with
it in the title. But you know, forgotten army, forgotten armor.
I couldn't miss that pun for a start. You know,
the guy's called themselves that. So I'm not ashamed necessarily

(08:44):
of doing it. Whereas sometimes you feel like some people
use the word forgotten in ways it's not necessarily merited.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (08:52):
One of the things I appreciated about your discussion that
we have waist Fest and your discussion with Rab on
the podcast is I've learned a lot about a place
that is really difficult to visit, is very very international travel,
not very friendly. I've learned a lot about a place

(09:13):
without ever being able to go there. And it's more
than you can get just from simply reading. You have
the images, you get the maps, you bring everything to
the table. But one thing that I think because of
our mindset right, our depiction of Burma in popular media
and our discussions of it, it feels like it's all
jungle jungle, jungle jungle. And what I've learned just in

(09:34):
reading from some of your material is that it's it's
kind of a varied place, which brings about the ability
to use armored vehicles and tank warfare in this theater,
which is I mean, I think that's probably what we'll
focus on the most.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
But tell us a.

Speaker 6 (09:50):
Little bit about the war, just generally the war in Burma.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah. Cool.

Speaker 8 (09:55):
So, I mean the reason why there is fighting in
Burnin is the fact put wait quite simply is that
that's the route that Lendley supplies get through to China
from the United States. You know, at the end of
the day, that's the main reason why Burmer is fought over,
it says, you know, everyone remembers the Burma Road and
the humpair Lift. The campaign is to keep the humpair

(10:15):
Lift going and in particular to reopen the Burber Road.
You know, there's well over a million Japanese soldiers in
China that no one in the United States or in
Britain particularly wants being able to support operations in the Pacific,
and so China holding down though like China holding down
that many Japanese troops is crucial to everything else that

(10:36):
America is planning. So there is a very strong interest
in keeping Burma going. And the one thing that's often
forgotten about is both the fighting Indian troops. And there's
about one hundred thousand, give or take, British soldiers serve there,
but there's two hundred and seventy seven thousand Americans who
are primarily either logistical services or the United States Air Force.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
But you know, it's nearly three times the amount of Brits.

Speaker 8 (11:00):
And yet you know, it's just it's almost as forgotten
in both places. But you know, many Americans do know
about it because they have those family connections.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
And similar to in Britain, you find is that unless
you have a.

Speaker 8 (11:09):
Family connections Burmer, people don't really necessarily think about it
in the Second World War. But the main point is
that it's to keep those things open. But also the
fact that the Japanese on and off, but by nineteen
forty four very much on have thought that there is
a route to kicking India out of the war, which
THEREFO would keep the British out of Asia, and so

(11:31):
that becomes another dynamic in the fighting and and why
there is fighting in Burma and Joe. You're right to
mention the fact that, you know, Burmer is famous for
its jungles and in particular the infantry struggle in those jungles.
But is really important to understand is that most of
the major battles, in particular in the second half of
the war nineteen forty four to ninety forty five, Slim

(11:53):
is quite quite consciously trying to engineer situations. For example,
pulling back to the Inphile played in nineteen forty four
and in what he does in nineteen forty five, which.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit.

Speaker 8 (12:06):
He is trying to engineer opportunities to get onto relatively
flat ground and accessible ground with shorten supply lines so
that he could use his advantages, which are specifically tanks,
artillery and air power and flat open ground are better
for him than jungle for all three of those.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
So Jack, you know, obviously Burma's not one of those
campaigns that if you take somebody randomly officed her and
you ask them anything about the Second World War, not
very many people are going to know about the Burma campaign. Now,
you said that your second book was a passion project.
What really sparked besides you know your podcast co hosts there,

(12:51):
But what sparked that for you to write this second book?

Speaker 8 (12:55):
Yeah, so you know, Rob's my spark for the interest
in the Burmer campaign. Where to a degree, I'm also
from an area of Britain called Kent, which has done
the closest bit to France, and it's the Royal West Kents.
What would have been my local regiment because I was
from West Kent, so I mean the bottom right hand
corner of Britain.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
The southeast, but right on the edge of London.

Speaker 8 (13:18):
So what if I had been conscripted and went into
my local regimen, you know, I volunteered and gone to
the local regiment and I was infantry, I would have
ended up at Phema with the.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Royal West Kent potentially with the Royal West Kents there.

Speaker 8 (13:30):
So that's part of it, and I'm rob's part of
the inspiration for the campaign in general. But the book
thunder Run is inspired really by you know, and I'm
sure your listeners will realize thunder Run is not a Second.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
World War term by any stretch of the imagination.

Speaker 8 (13:47):
My inspiration for that as a title was because when
I was studying a master's and I did Tank Warfare
in Burma, which was my first book, was out of
the dissertation for my masters. When I was studying this
particular battle, I realized that it was basically a thunder
run because I was studying, you know, I was doing
the planning for my masters, but I was also studying

(14:09):
the two thousand and three invasion of Iraq, and that's
where the famous thunder run where they punch an armored
column through to Baghdad over hundreds of miles and capture
Baghdad to capitate the regime and.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
So on, and obviously there's other there's air power. You know,
it's a very much an all arms operation.

Speaker 8 (14:27):
And so when I was planning my dissertation, you know,
two three years ago, what happened was I was reading
about all of this, and then reading about the two
thousand and three invasion of Iraq of Baghdad. At the
attack on Baghdad, I was reading about Mechtila, which.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Is where the book is based or the battle book
is based on.

Speaker 8 (14:47):
And then rather conveniently, Vladimir Putin intempted to did invade Ukraine,
but he attempted to punch an armored force, an armored
column south from Belarus into Kiev.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
And with that is I was like, well, this is
a thunder run.

Speaker 8 (15:05):
And then a couple of days later as it's completely stalled,
and those tailbacks, those tailbacks people might remember on the
news of all of those lorries, you know, those logistical
supply lorries, you know, bumper to bumper for hundreds of
miles on the roads of northern Ukraine, because the Ukrainians
had defended them, you know, with drones and missiles and salt,

(15:26):
and I just remember seeing that and thinking, you know,
this is a this is a thunder run done badly.
And the thing that sort of ties these three things together.
So two thousand and three Iraq, twenty twenty two, Kiev
or the attack on Kiev and thunder run Mektila nineteen
forty five, is that the Battle of Mechtila is another
thunder run.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
You know, no one calls it that at the time.

Speaker 8 (15:48):
You know, I'm putting that retrospectively based on more recent history,
but effectively, what happens at the end of the war,
Slim does a couple of really important decisions.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
So for those who don't know.

Speaker 8 (15:58):
Bill Slim, General Uncle Bill, you know he is about
to He's won the Battle of in File.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
The Japanese are reeling.

Speaker 8 (16:07):
Their men are starving in the sort of the jungles
withdrawing from this place in File, which is sort of
the in the borderlands on the Indian side of the border.
So Japan had invaded India, but it's in those borderlands
between Burma and India the frontier, I suppose. And what's
happened is is Slim decides even though it's the monsoon,
this horrific rainfall that takes place, so every day it rains.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
For about five months.

Speaker 8 (16:31):
And what he does is slind decides instead of resting
in the monsoon, gather his troops, rest refit, rearm all
these things, which is what's happened in previous couple of years.
He uses the monsoon actually to chase the the Japanese
army out and it's a crucial decision because it's really
really hard work. These are you know, these are mountainous

(16:52):
jungle terrain, especially the further east and southeast he goes, it.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Gets increasingly increasingly jungle, very very quickly the moment he leaves.

Speaker 8 (17:01):
The infile plane and he fights through this and it's horrific,
horrific fighting, and there's a small amount of tank warfare there,
but it's primarily the infantryman's struggle at close quarters. And
over the course of this monsoon, over the summer of
nineteen forty four, that the summer and into the autob
of nineteen forty four, he pushes the Japanese slim does

(17:21):
out of Burma and crosses the Chindwin River, which is
the main river obstacle before you get into or as
you get into Burma. And he now has opened to
him the central plane of Burma.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
And this is, you know, kind of what you were
talking about earlier, Joe, that.

Speaker 8 (17:38):
Burma is jungled on a number of his peripheries, but
it has this very large central dry belt where Mandalay
is the most famous city there. You know, most soldiers
of the time, that's the only place they've heard of.
Maybe they've heard of Rangoon because that's the port that
anyone who goes to Burmer arrives through. He has this

(17:58):
open to him, So he's going to capture of Mandalay.
But then the new Japanese commander Kimera, he withdraws his
forces behind the Irrawady just as Slim tries to clear
the northern part of this central dry belt. And he's
so keen to fight this battle here is because he
has all these tanks, artillery, air power. He knows he

(18:19):
can destroy the Japanese, the Imperial Japanese Army in Burma,
the Burma area Army in central Magtela because he has
those advantages. The Imperial Japanese Army is very much a
light infantry force. Its artillery is antanks are both really
still stuck whilst their high quality artillery in particular they are.

(18:41):
There is no scaping the fact that they're mostly late
nineteen thirties technology in a couple of early forties and
this is nineteen forty five. So their anti tank weapons
are no good against Shermans. They were just about good
enough to take out an M three Stewart earlier in
the war, but by the time you were talking about
Sherman tanks, their anti tank guns aren't good enough on
these open planes. The mobility that the tanks have where

(19:03):
it's almost like desert, and again we could see the
photo that you know, this is not primary jungle. You know,
you can see the desert nature of the track that
they're driving on. He can use all the mobility that
he has to destroy the Japanese, but Kimmerara, the Japanese commander,
is too wise to that, and so he withdraws behind
the Irrawaddy, which cuts the central dry belt in two.

(19:24):
So Slim has to change his entire plan. And so
his new thing is he's going to look like he's
going for Mandalaei. So it looks like his original plan
to capture Mandale is still going ahead, but secretly he diverts,
and you know, this is the beginning of the book,
really he diverts one of his core south and then
east to try and hit the Japanese about eighty miles

(19:46):
ninety miles further south, and then he's going to capture
this town of Mechtila by sending three thousand vehicles, about
one hundred and fifty about ninety of them are tanks
of the two hundred and fifty fifth Indian Tank Brigade.
Is going to push them over the river, which is
a huge operation by the way, you know, it's three

(20:08):
times wider than the Rhine, three times wider, and they
do not have any help from say, the Navy or
the United States, the Royal Navy, the United States Navy.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
They have to do a lot of it for themselves.
They cross over that river.

Speaker 8 (20:22):
And then he punches his tanks and the infantry of
the seventeenth Indian Division eighty miles behind the Japanese lines
and basically takes and hold Maktila, which is a supply
base basically for the rest of Burma, and force the
Japanese to come to him. And he will destroy the
Japanese between Mandalain, Maktila, and in particular at Mactela because

(20:42):
the Japanese will have to counter attack or they will
starve and run out of ammunition and sold in Central Burma.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
And that's what Slim doesn't and that's the topic of
the next book.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
Eva.

Speaker 6 (20:55):
That's really the importance behind mcteela is supplies what is
coming in and out of mcdealer. That makes it so important.
Well for the British character the Japanese to mean team.

Speaker 8 (21:10):
I mean, the only real reason for the British capture
is because they know the Japanese will come to them.
You know, when when Slim has entered the north, the
northern part of the dry Belt, Kimra's withdrawal behind the
Erawaddy is message enough. You know, we're not going to
be able to we can't chase them. We need to
make them stand and fight. Because the last thing, and
this is probably what Kimra should have done, is that

(21:32):
the last thing that Slim would want to do is
to extend his supply lines to southern Burma and the
Japanese then fight in the jungles of southern Burma. That's
absolutely what Slim wants to avoid, So he wants to
destroy the Japanese further north up at the upper Mateina
and also Mandalay and the gap in between there's about
an eighty mile strip of land.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
Between the two of them. The main thing is, and
again if your listeners service in anything like the you know,
the bridge over the river Choir, you know, or the
other's the column.

Speaker 8 (22:03):
Firth Railway, the Burma railway film as well, basically those
films of the Death railway being built from Thailand into Burma.
That railway connects up to Mctela on the way to
Mandalay and so on. When supplies went in by sea
before the American blockade by both an American submarine blockade
and a Royal Navy Indian Navy blockade. In this and Bengal,

(22:27):
they blockade Rangoon effectively, so even then supplies from Rangoon
are often coming through there as well if they got there.
The main thing is that is literally everything. So it
is food, oil for the vehicles, but in particular ammunition
and war fighting stores. And this is an interesting about
the Battle of Mectela actually the initial defense by the Japanese.

(22:48):
Lots of eye weaknesses talk about, you know, British soldiers,
Indian soldiers talk about the unusual prevalence of automatic weapons
and a large amount of artillery for the size of
a garrison, a garrison of about two to three thousand men.
In the initial defense, this is before the counter attack,
they're mostly supplied troops and so on. But Japanese training.

(23:10):
Being Japanese training, they they find completely street street yard
by yard and often hand to hand. But the witnesses
all talk about the amount of machine guns, like the type.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Or forgot the name of it, one of the those
like the bren the bread gun that has the They
even had a bayonet Floyd, the light machine gun type
A nine. I think it is Type nine.

Speaker 8 (23:31):
Stunt the prevalance of these machine guns because.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
It's because they just throw open the warehouses.

Speaker 8 (23:39):
The other really famous thing because it's got an airfield
next to it. The Japanese often do a thing where
with some of their soldiers they dug holes in the ground,
and this is where the famous stories come from, where
they put the aerial bomb between their legs with a
rock or a hammer to strike the detonator when attack
reaches them. You know, this level of dedication by those soldiers,

(24:02):
and it's because they have an over abundance of ordinance,
basically because of it being a supply hub.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Now that's what gives you.

Speaker 8 (24:10):
There's also things like a hospital and you know, about
one hundreds of the men in the hospital are dragged.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Now they do evacuate.

Speaker 8 (24:17):
The seriously wounded, but the walking wounded in the hospital
are basically given weapons and told to fight from their beds,
you know. And at one point, you know, they're shooting
out of their their ward windows at the seventh and
tenth Polution regiment as they're attacking. You know, an eyewitness
that a fight called John Randal. He talks about you
know this and walking through the stinking hospital after it's

(24:37):
been cleared, as well as state of it, you know,
really pre grim. So it's like a horror I always
think having to fight a war through the hospital must be.
That's like it's like a horror film, like horror film
or a game like a you know, I think Brothers
in Arms Hell's Highway there's a scene where you fight
through age when you fight through like an older old

(24:57):
mental hospital, and.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
It just feels like a horror film. It must have
been like that, you know, really really grim.

Speaker 5 (25:03):
I think it's really funny because my two younger brothers
and I we have a group text message, and that's
the that's the group's name as Brothers in Arms Hills Highway.
You know, no, you're absolutely right, and sort of the
level of you know, dedication that you know it is
almost you know, inconceivable to us in the twenty first century,

(25:24):
because I guarantee you that if I have a piece
of explosive ordinance between my legs, the first thought is
not hitting it with a rock, interest it's getting it
between all.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
There's a mad extra to these that.

Speaker 8 (25:38):
There's a couple of guys find a Japanese soldier waiting
for that because he was told to wait for a tank.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
He just sat there, and so the.

Speaker 8 (25:44):
Guy sort of freeze in fear that they're about to
be blown up. The Japanese guy does nothing. They realize
it'sn't gonna do anything, and so they shoot him, you know,
ten seconds later, because he was told to wait for
a tank.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
But you can't, you know, you're looking around me in
the face.

Speaker 8 (26:00):
Because there's also a part there of like it sounds
pretty bad, but like where's his initiative to at least
take those two guys out, because what they're going to
do go away and say, fine, you wait for a tank.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
You wait for it doesn't look it in a way,
it doesn't make.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
Sense Zero's revivability.

Speaker 6 (26:17):
Listeners and fans will remember when we did our episode
on bushido all the way back, the very first episode,
the very first episode was with our friend Jake, and
he talked about Bashido abandoned and this idea of discarding
this ancient sacred honor. But this is, I mean, this

(26:39):
is on display is a push of bushido. This this
idea of a fanatical devotion to strike a bomb with
a rock in a hope to blow up the tank.

Speaker 8 (26:53):
You know, and and charging at tanks with suicide bottoms
and things like that. There's stuff like that going on
as well, you know. And there's a guy in forgot
an armor. I talk about a guy, a Japanese guy
at Mandala. He climbs up the back of an M
three medium lead tank. He climbs on the back of it,
and he kills the British commander of the tank in

(27:13):
the third carabineas he stabs him with his sword, his
Samurai sword.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
He climbs inside the tank.

Speaker 8 (27:22):
He kills the gun first seven minimeters in the turret,
and then the loader is a guy called Trooper Vernon Jenkins,
and he has a hand to hand fight with this
Japanese officer inside the turret of the lead tank and
you know, and he has cuts on his forearm and
stuff afterwards, and he.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Eventually manages it.

Speaker 8 (27:41):
He shoots at the guy six times with his own revolver,
runs out of bullets, and picks up from one of
the two dead guys someone else's revolver basically, and it
still takes another three rounds to kill the Japanese guy
that's attacking him. He's partly helped by the fact the
breach of the third seven millimeters gun is partly between them.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
So the guy contsing his sword particularly well. But like
just to terrify the OCASI of that, and for anyone listening.

Speaker 8 (28:04):
Or gets the chance, if you go to Edinburgh Castle,
that sword is on display in Edinburgh Castle in the
Scotts Drecken guards mu.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
See as well if you're interesting in that way. Yeah,
but but honestly against that thing, like where did you
get that? You climb You're going to climb.

Speaker 8 (28:19):
On the tank and climb inside it with your sword
and win the and you know that's going to contribute
to winning the war somehow.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
He brought a sword to a tank fight.

Speaker 6 (28:29):
Now, I know we we mention them already, but uh,
for listeners, let's try and familiarize ourselves with a little
bit of who are the main figures, and we get
to talk about bowl one of my favorites. I don't
have my Manti mug available, but somewhere out there is
my my Bill Slim silhouette coffee cup, so I do

(28:50):
at least have that. So we know that that the
Viscount is here right uh, and then Kumora on the
other side, But tell us a little bit about them.
And then already down there to Honda and one of
I think the greatest names, punch.

Speaker 8 (29:06):
Cowing legend love punch Cown. So what so Southern the top.
So Bill Slim is probably the most famous character out
of all of the people that we could talk about.
He's completely turned the Army in Burma around. So when
he takes over, it's still called or you know, it's
right on the border between it being renamed from Eastern Army,

(29:28):
which had had a horrific defeat in nineteen forty three,
into becoming the fourteenth Army. Now Slim had been a
core commander. He was appointed He was in Iraq at
the beginning of the Japanese invasion, and he arrives in
March nineteen forty two. Really, when the Japanese invasion of
Burma has kind of already achieved most of its original objectives.
They had captured Rangoon, they'd cut the Burmer Road, and

(29:48):
then really the Japanese were exploiting an opportunity to push
the British all the way out. It wasn't their initial plan.
They were happy to just capture Rangoon and cut the
Burber Road. But because they win such a comprehensive defeat
in the opening two months three months, they keep going
and Slim is brought over.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
He arrives in March, like I.

Speaker 8 (30:07):
Say, and he's his drive and others. It's not just
down to him, you know, Alexander had arrived as well,
with the it's also help out.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
But he's the one at that core level to.

Speaker 8 (30:18):
Rescue the whole army and get them out of Burmer,
which he does successfully and a bit of wrangling in
nineteen forty three. By the middle of nineteen forty three
he's got the job as the army commander, and so
he's now in commander of the newly named fourteenth Army
and his boss is a guy.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
I called it and tempted his boss's boss.

Speaker 8 (30:36):
But the relationship between Slim and Mount Batten is hugely importantly.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
He's basically there.

Speaker 8 (30:42):
He's the Burmer campaigns Ike really, you know, so Burmer
has Slim has a really amazing relationship with Mount Batton,
and Mount Batten is the one that comes up with
the basic idea we should rename it after a numbered
thing like eighth Army and build that ethos of similar
the eighth Army. That identity an Eastern Army had been

(31:03):
tainted anyway by what had happened in nineteen forty three,
the failures there and there's that's a bit of another
story I think from today. And he's now in charge
to the fourteenth Army. He wins the battles in File
and Khema when the Japanese tried to invade, and his
opposite number is fired and is replaced by Kimra. The

(31:25):
other big character in the battle Matela. So his opposite
number in charge of the Burma Army, kim he is
he's new to the Burmer campaign. It's one of the
things why Slim perhaps underestimates him. Maybe that's a bit strong.
He misunderstands him. He assumes Slim assumed that Kimrara would

(31:45):
do what any other Japanese commander up to that point
is done and defend every single inch of Burma to
the last man in the last round. And actually Kimrara doesn't,
you know, I mentioned earlier Kimra withdraws behind the Ira
body really once Slim has got into northern Burma, not
prepared to fritter away his army whilst it's trying to

(32:07):
reorganize after him File and Khimo.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
You know, it's being reinforced.

Speaker 8 (32:11):
The you know, the Japanese lose fifty six thousand, fifty
three thousand.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
No, I'll get more sums from it.

Speaker 8 (32:18):
Yeah, fifty three thousand killed plus fifty three thousand killed
and wounded. After him filing Kohema, they received about thirty
thousand reinforcements, although the quality of reinforcements isn't as good
as those he's lost, and in particular one division forty
nine that he's part of. This division are particularly poorly trained,

(32:39):
you know, not horrifically trained, but there you know, Kimra
felt he was the worst division in his in his
arsenal basically, and so Kimra has come over. He's come over,
he's worked in the Japanese government, he's been one of
the he's been Minister for War since ninety forty three.
He comes over this complete unknown quantity to Slim, and

(32:59):
he he acts differently. He acts more strategically probably than
other Japanese commanders would have done. So that's where it
Slim makes that mistake, and he he decides, I've got
to use the geographical advantage is available to me, you know,
defending the Irawaddy I mentioned earlier, maybe he, like Slim,
was worried about fighting in the jungles of southern Burma,

(33:20):
and that was an option to Kimra.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
But you know, it's not contrary to myself earlier. There
is a very very.

Speaker 8 (33:24):
Understandable reason to defend the Irrawaddy River, this one that
cuts this huge river that cuts Burmer in two.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Really because like you.

Speaker 8 (33:33):
Know, like I said, it's it's over one thousand yards wide,
it's three times the width of the.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
Ryan and Slim will have to cross that. And Kimra
knows that Slim is not going to have loads of naval.

Speaker 8 (33:46):
Resources to do this. You know, they in Europe for
the rhyine crossing. You know, they're trucking, landing craft overland.
You know, here' Slim is building the rafts himself and
tanks acrossing the irawady on bailey bridges, put on pontoos
and even engines, outboard engines, and the soldiers is just
crossing in flimsy canvas collapsible you know, think think of

(34:09):
a bridge too far when they're crossing the var you know,
is that kind of thing, and it's three times wider
than the rhyme. It's so it's it's not surprising that
Kimra chooses to defend that particular place, but it obviously
throws Slim a lot problems. The next important guy down
really is I mean, there's mess of the as important

(34:30):
as the commander of four Corps, who's the core commander
for this operation.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Remember Slim had Bin is.

Speaker 8 (34:35):
The army commander, but I'm going to slightly skip him
a little bit because he's doing other operations at the
same time. You know, he's responsible for holding the bridgehead
when they cross the ibody, and so that brings us
down to messvi's subordinate punch Cowen who commands the thunder
on itself. He's is his operation, is his battle at Mektina,

(34:56):
this supply up and he's another one likes Slim, who
has been through the entire campaign. He's so for those
that don't know or don't know the Burmer campaign very well,
when the Japanese initially invade, after the first month, I mean,
the whole thing is a disaster, but when the Japanese invade,

(35:16):
the biggest disaster by far and is really.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
The major turning point.

Speaker 8 (35:20):
The point of no return is when the previous seventeenth
Indian Division commander he blows up the Sittang Bridge, which
is a bridge over the Sittang River.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
He blows it up, leaving two thirds of his.

Speaker 8 (35:32):
Men on the wrong side, so cut off from friends,
and the Japanese then atap them and some of them
get across the river, but you know, they lose about
five thousand men from the division which had already taken
couch to his previous so two thirds of his division
are basically lost. Now, that guy Jackie Smith, who was
a Victoria Cross from the First World War, so you
know this is not a man who is a coward.

(35:54):
He just makes a bad call and there's lots complicated
REases behind that, but he loses his job for doing
that to his own division, and so this guy Cowan
is promoted into that role. He was brought down as
a brigade sorry, as one of the staff officers smith
and he's promoted into the position of and he rebuilds

(36:15):
the division during the retreat whilst fighting it, you know,
men without shoes and weapons, and he manages to rebuild.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
This division what remains.

Speaker 8 (36:24):
He's part of the fighting retreat and then they fight
at the Battle of Him File and this division has
gone you know, like you know from Phoenix from the Ashes.
They've been a completely mauled in nineteen.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Forty two, and by nineteen forty four they're one of.

Speaker 8 (36:38):
The most aggressive and powerful divisions with real moracles. Their
tails are up to his you know, hunting and energy,
you know, and they are you know, and they are
one of those ones who they refit over the monsoon
of nineteen forty four. While other divisions fight through the
monsoon and push Japanese out, they mechanize, so they go

(37:00):
from being on mule transport, you know, you know, mules
dragging their stuff through the mountains in jungle to now
actually being motorized, you know, and they go with the
tanks of the two hundred and fifty fifth Indian Tank Brigade,
which an independent brigade, but they are attached to Cow
and Cow it's all of this is Karen's battle, and
his sheer aggression in this battle is admirable, you know,

(37:24):
like Slim, he's on the same page of Slim. He
knows he has to destroy the Japanese army. None of
this is about territory. They have to actually destroy the
Japanese military.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
And he's the perfect guy for the job.

Speaker 8 (37:36):
His main opposite number is Honda, although there are actually
a couple of other characters in between, but Honda is
the main one, mostly because Honda is only given responsibility
for the Battle of Makatila in the second half of
the battle. Previous to that, it was other divisional commanders
who neither of whom was actually told you're in command.
And so these two divisions that are attacking Cowen, they

(38:00):
you know, they don't no one knows who's in charge,
and really it should have been there was one of
them in particularly it was more experience and had a
larger force because he was given.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
He was given the entire armies complement of the.

Speaker 8 (38:12):
Burma area armies complement of large artillery called Naganuma Force
one hundred and fifty millimeters houses, one hundred and five
millimeter hollis Is and so on. He should have been
put in command, but they don't. They Kimerara doesn't put
him in charge. And it's half the first couple of
weeks that they Honda rightly grips the battle properly, and

(38:33):
that's when Honda takes over. The final two weeks of
March really is the that's the biggest moment of stress
really for the entire thing, because you know, in the
end they will spend six weeks eighty miles behind Japanese
lines and crucially being supplied exclusively by air. There is
no land link back I think Market Garden to Armam

(38:54):
and they when they do Hell's Highway, they don't bother
holding or defending the salient behind them.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
They just punched that.

Speaker 8 (39:00):
They just punched thirty course straight through to you know,
without faffing with Hell's Higher and behind it and supply
inside by air.

Speaker 6 (39:08):
And that really becomes the topic. I think we'll spend
the few minutes on. Here is just that route from
Yangu to Mechtila, eighty miles.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
And they cover it.

Speaker 6 (39:18):
I mean, if you look at the dates, and I'm
ashamed they don't have a better map to go with it.
But everything happens within like a four and five day
window of the last town that they've crossed through. So
they're just blowing across that eighty mile plane with relative speed.
But then comes what oim.

Speaker 8 (39:40):
Yeah, yeah, So Nyongou's the bridgehead for the crossing of
the year ordin, you know, and the thunder Run. So
seventeen things in division and the two hundred and fifty
fifth Indian Tank Brigade. They set out on the twenty
first of February nineteen forty five, so a week after
the crossing, you know, the crossing, they spent a week

(40:01):
building up and were securing the bridgehead and building up
the thunder run. And then because a different division did
the crossing and the bridgehead building seventeenth that inserted into
an existing bridgehead and they break out on the twenty
first oi in is the twenty sixth of February, so
it's five days later that it's the morning, so I
suppose it's four days later in one sense.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
And it's the first real time.

Speaker 8 (40:24):
Now it's only two Japanese companies, but it's the first
real defended positions on the main road on the way
to make Tiela or the southern route. Because there's so
many of them on they couldn't all go on a
single road, so they take two roads and then meet
up again further to.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
The east, and they have to capture Oion to break through.

Speaker 8 (40:45):
They don't want to leave this size of thing behind
them or to meddle with the you know, because the
spearhead of the thunder rum is obviously tanks. And you
know all the eyewitnesses who are with the tanks on
the tanks, you know, they're all talking about how it
was jolly, great fun, old chap because of course they're.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
All old cavalry offices. That's Johnny, great fun.

Speaker 8 (41:03):
You know, the tanks and the jeeps are leaping up
over the little little earth rounds that divide all the fields.
You know, they talk about it feeling like a hunt
or a point to points and all this stuff.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
You know, the guys describe it as if it's this
amazing thing.

Speaker 8 (41:20):
And then I've got another guy that followed the book
who he's in the Royal Engineers and he's with with
bulldozers on the back of flatbeds to maintain the airstrips
that will feed and supply the entire thing. And obviously
you know he's on a diamond te transport him whist.
Those guys like the front having the time of their life,
charging around like a cavalry thing.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
He's just every time they're having a good cavalry fight.
In their eyes, they're just in a traffic jam.

Speaker 8 (41:49):
Because of the concertina effect of this movement. All the
people at the front, they're acting like he's the best
time ever. Everyone else it's like staring staring at their
watches and you know, like when we're the get moving,
there's board and they're drinking tea like you know, and
all this sort of stuff in forty degree heat and
they're still drinking tea and all that stuff. But they're
pushing south on this thing and some of them are

(42:10):
having the time of life. Some of them are in
traffic japs. But what they don't want is to leave.
You know, two companies of Japanese infantry with access to
those soft skin vehicles in that tailback behind the spearhead
that is charging around.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
They can't leave.

Speaker 8 (42:27):
That vulnerable, so they have to take awe in and
this is where you get the story of the guys,
you know, jumping under the tanks with suicide bombs and
that sort of thing. Because it's a real grim you know,
village village street by village street fight. You know, it's
wooden bamboo huts, you know, with grass sorts of dry grass,
thatched roofs and stuff like that, but lots of shady

(42:50):
trees because you know, you can see in the picture
for example, you know the villages in these area all
have you know, they all have a local water source
called a geal, which is a community pond. It's used
to irrigate the immediate area during the dry seam dry season,
and these very hardy tammering trees grow fairly easily, and
they have to have them in the villages because they

(43:10):
just need the shade, you know, even local people when
it's forty in the forties in the dry season, you
need that shade. But it also means that you know,
these are whenever you have to capture defended location, it's
not just that it's a town or.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
Village, villages in particular. It's also like a.

Speaker 8 (43:26):
Forest, you know, not a dense forest, you know, it's
fairly loose, but it's that strange mixture of forest and
wooden huts. And the way I sometimes describe it to
people is if people have seen The Thin Red Line
and there's that scene where they're charging through the village
of huts on Guadalcanal, and it's quite a moving running battle,
you know, men jumping out of the huts, so it's

(43:47):
whoever fires their weapons first, will you That sort of
thing really quite a good scene in that film. I
think actually the way they put it to music and stuff,
I kind of have that from the witness accounts.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
It's a bit like that.

Speaker 8 (44:00):
It's a running battle through the village, destroying Japanese bunkers
in the foundations of these huts and that sort of thing.
And the tanks are doing. The thing that no film
has ever really managed to get about the water forest
is the way that tanks and infantry work together, that
bunker busting, and that's what's happening here. This is the
tanks are going from building to building, destroying the bunkers, building.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
The base and the infantry.

Speaker 8 (44:21):
Then then sort of mopping up and doing the hand
to hand part once the bunker is suppressed. And so
it takes all day at Audion, you know, and they
take quite a few casualties, the infantry in particular, but
they do manage to clear it successfully and the next
day the whole thing can you know, the whole you know,
the whole train moves on, you know, the thunder on continued.

Speaker 6 (44:42):
Boddy, you see the because this is I was just
doing a quick search for pictures and now all of
a sudden they see it really clearly, the like the
barbed wire and meshing over the top of the Sherman
to stop Japanese soldiers from climbing all over it. Yeah, yeah,
you can actually.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
And you can't see that quick.

Speaker 8 (45:04):
Others as well that they were like rails around the
edges and the rear of the tank as well, so
that you can't really grip onto it. Like it looks
like it's a handrail for infantry to grab, but actually
it's also covered in barbed.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Wire and stuff to stop exactly that.

Speaker 8 (45:21):
You know, this is the fear that they have, you know,
they are defending themselves from from that infantry attack, from
infantry attack and things. Some people have put this down
to stopping grenades, but it's just not the record doesn't
bear that out. And to those in orders to photograph,
because if you look those meshy, that meshing is not
big enough to stop a grenade. Sorry that the coils

(45:42):
aren't tight enough to stop grenades. It's hard to open
for that is completely stop the enemy infantry climbing, you know.
And nothing I've read in reports and so on when
they've talked about making this because remy have to weld
all this.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Stuff there, you know, the light aid detachments and so on.

Speaker 8 (45:57):
You know, they talk about this field innovation for this
the reason nobody mentioned screnades.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
It's not about group.

Speaker 5 (46:03):
Yeah, And then I was gonna say, as asked Jack,
this when it because we've talked on the show a
variety of different operations, uh, from the day the market
Garden to the Burma campaign. Do you find in the
Burma campaign that there are personality clashes especially with these

(46:23):
you know, combined allied forces, especially between the British and
Indian forces as well, but like you mentioned, there was
other you know, American forces there as well. You know,
so are we seeing like you know, sort of personality clashes.
Are we seeing ideological differences or is it a a
truly you know, allied campaign.

Speaker 8 (46:43):
So to one slim and Mount Battle of there, it's
a pretty unified command and everyone's putting in the same street.
And to honest, the whole Forgotten Army thing helps with that.
There's a real sense of together this amongst these soldiers.
And then you know Indian troops for example, something that
has some nonsense written about the motivation of Indian troops
and the fact that they're not really volunteers. It is nonsense,

(47:06):
it should be said. You know, there is obviously on
the home front, there is tension because there are there
are nationalists, Indian nationalists fighting fighting for their own independence.
Independence that's coming and you know, you know, we will
understand that and we definitely sympathize. But Japanese soldiers, sorry,
Indian soldiers who volunteer, are well aware of the rape
of Nanking for example, in nineteen thirty and that's front

(47:29):
page news all over the world. Indian soldiers talk about
those motivations, you know, and while some soldiers joined the
iron A, let's in the surrenders in place like Singapore
and Burner, you know, the Indian National Army, which the
Japanese were mostly creating from Indian soldiers who change sides.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
The overwhelming majority of.

Speaker 8 (47:50):
Indian soldiers are to use an Indian Army phrase, were
worth their salts, the traditional payment going back to the
East India Company. The Japanese are most of the Indian
soldiers did not cross over to join.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
The Japanese Indian National Army.

Speaker 8 (48:05):
You know, they stuck by their original pledge to the
British Empire and also desertion rates by the iron A
when in contact with British Indian units is also quite high,
and they deserve and surrender basically in relatively relatively large numbers,
who certainly compared to the Japanese in terms of within
the forces though so there are massive clashes in nineteen

(48:28):
forty four between the Japanese commander Mataguchi at fifteenth Army
who's doing the entire invasion of India, and his subordinate
in charge of the thirty third Division at Kahema, a
guy called Sato, and there's the famous exchange between the
two of the when Sarto feels Matsuguchi isn't sending him
enough supplies. Sarto gets on the radio. It is basically like,

(48:51):
you know, I'm going to have to withdraw. He puts
it quite flowery, you know, sort of poetic language. Obviously
culture of Japan poetry is and I and he says
things like that with with bitter tears and you know,
flower pedals fall and falling dead from the bard or whatever.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
He said.

Speaker 8 (49:09):
He basically says that I'm withdrawing because you haven't given
me enough Mentecuci says, if you do, I'm going to
call Marshall and you and starta says, do as you wish,
I'll take you down with me, and just turns off
his radios, just turns off the radios and retreats from Khema.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
You know.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
So huge clashes there the British side.

Speaker 8 (49:27):
You know, Slim has a big argument with his previous commander,
Noel Irwin, who's in charge in nineteen forty three. The
sort of disaster I talks about there, and that is
kind of like because there's a British versus Indian Army
thing that Irwin has come over from from Britain and
the British Army and they often looked down their nose
at Indian officers, which is interesting because to get in

(49:49):
the Indian Army was more difficult, you know, and Bernard Montgomery,
for example, tried to get in the Indian Army but
failed because he wasn't deemed good enough.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
Whereas you know.

Speaker 8 (50:00):
But on the flip side is that in British officers
felt well, that's just the Internet.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
And being difficult, not because they're actually better.

Speaker 8 (50:08):
So he kind of has this feeling that Slim is
you know, Slim doesn't know what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
They don't know what modern war is.

Speaker 8 (50:13):
So I'm going to ignore Slim's ideas, which are completely sound.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
And there's a little bit of him probably flying trying
to throw his weight.

Speaker 8 (50:21):
Around because Slim is so popular, you know, stamp his
authority on the whole situation.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
And that ends badly because.

Speaker 8 (50:27):
His operation is a complete failure and this one's fault
and so he's got rid of and finally Slim takes
over the army command. But Jerry speaking of and there
is right at the end of the war, another guy
from eighth arm in lease on of the lease he
comes over to Burmam right at the very end, and
he tries to display Slim and the fourteenth Army almost
goes on strike, commutinies a bit far but almost goes

(50:49):
on strike, and Slim is very clever, if a little
bit mackeiavellian here he lets the whole thing happen. But
it's also reminding people that you know, this is very thing,
but like you know, I couldn't possibly comments but that
kind of thing, you know, I mean, as soon as
a great operator, I think as well, And I think

(51:10):
that's sometimes not thoughts about he knows how to carry
himself and I don't and I don't mean that in bad.
What I'm saying that this makes him an excellent commander.
He knows how to carry himself with the troops. He
knows how to play in the political game with the
c offices and political and the political side of it
as well.

Speaker 6 (51:29):
So I'm just finishing the header here because I want
to talk here about the actual fighting in and around mcteal,
Because we end up with a siege effectively as an entirclement.
There is British very quickly bridge in the army very
quickly capture the city and then counterattacks and all of

(51:49):
a sudden they're in circle. But this is really this
is punch Cowen getting to kind of tick the kid
gloves off and fight to capture the talent itself. So
just walk through kind of in brief because you know,
we're running out of time. It's always the problem with it.
We get started, we talk forever and we could do
this all bit. But yeah, the kind of the give

(52:15):
us the hits.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 8 (52:16):
So there are three distinct phases. There are three distinct
phases to the battle. There's the initial battle, you know,
what I call the Battle for Makatila, which you mentioned.
That's the sort of the four day battle from the
twenty eighth of February to the third March, where the
Japanese are crushed by Cowen's seventeenth Indian Division and the
two hundred and fifty fifth Indian Tank. They encircle the

(52:38):
whole town and basically squeeze it from three sides because
there's lakes. There's only three sides, you see what I mean,
Because there's a series of lakes around it. There's only
three three entrances. They're crossing from the three sides and
overrun it. Now, the interesting thing is that that you know,
and we talk about, you know the way that sometimes
victories aren't the place for major.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Awards for medals for bravery.

Speaker 8 (53:03):
So D Day Famous only has the one Stan Hollis
Victoria Cross, for example, yet Arnham has a number all
that sort of thing. There are two Victoria Crosses the
very beginning, both of which.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 8 (53:17):
I know you said you didn't want to spend too
long in this, but you know, I've got a bit
of time. But the even if you don't, but there
are two amazing Victoria Crosses. Because one guy is charged,
an Indian guy called fazal Din, he charges he's.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
A Japanese bunker. When the Japanese.

Speaker 8 (53:33):
Garrison of this bunker charge out about six of them,
and a hand to hand fight ensues. Fazal Din gets
stabbed in by a Japanese officer's sword, to which people
describe that the point of it comes out of his
back as well. He wrestles the Japanese officer off of
him and then removes the sword from his own body
and kills the Japanese soldier that attacked him, and then

(53:55):
helps his colleague who is also in a hand to
hand fight with another Japanese soldier. And only then does
he then go and reports sick. You know, and this
is all over in a couple of minutes and he
dies a couple of hours later or the next morning.
But it happens right in front of the platoon headquarters,
so there were lots and lots of eyewitnesses. The second

(54:16):
Victoria cross is not a dissimilar situation. Just as they're
mopping up what they thought was a bunker that had
been killed or cleared, suddenly opens fire and Lieutenant Western
of the West Yorks he charges the bunker, takes a
burst of machine gun fire in the chest and basically
falls onto the entrance. Now he's wounded, but he in

(54:38):
a split second thinks he's probably going to die, so
he pulls a grenade off his webbing and then just
rolls himself into the bunker and blows it up from
the inside. You know, two amazing victory across it. And
again both happened right in front of a number of people.
They have to be witnessed anyway, but both have a
surprising amount of eyewitnesses because it's you know, they're not
they're not tucked away in it's quite a bit. It's

(54:59):
very in is this Western story in particular. You know,
they're all just standing around mopping up you know, it's
the battles over. People are milling about and there's tanks
nearby as well that you know, a lot of people
see it. So the clearing of the city itself, sorry,
that's the first phase. Is that kind of bunker to bunker,
hand to hand, street to street and that street. Street's

(55:19):
unusual because Makethilla is a proper town. So it's concrete buildings,
brick buildings, problems of both the heat and the dust
from the buildings, all that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Pretty grim, but it's inevitable. Frankly.

Speaker 8 (55:30):
You know, they do outnumber the Japanese garrison sort of
four or five to one at this point. However, that's
the last time they're going to out number their enemy.
Like we've said before, material is eighty miles from the Irrawaddy,
which is effectively the front line. You know, if you're
going to be nitpicky, maybe it's seventy five because of
the bridgehead instead a hell of a long way.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
You know, it's further than on them is from the.

Speaker 8 (55:53):
Canal where they cross the albut canal whatever is at
the beginning of.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
That's a hell of a long way.

Speaker 8 (56:00):
So when the next stage then is when the Japanese
counter attack. Now, this is a period earlier where the
Japanese don't quite coordinate themselves, so local resort reserves are
sent in the eighteenth Division, which had been fighting with
the They've been fighting right in the very north of
Canada against the American troops Mayor of Marauders and so
on the year before, through Mitchinara and so on. They

(56:23):
have now been sent south because the most important battle
is now taking place in central Burma. So they've come
south as reinforcements, and with them Kimera sends this thing
called Naganuma Force, all those large artillery pieces, basically the
fifteenth Armies reserve artillery goes south. Meanwhile, from Rangoon there's

(56:44):
the forty ninth Division, which is the worst division in
Kimra's opinion.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Eighteenth this is favorite. Forty ninth is least favorite.

Speaker 8 (56:51):
And so he's going to squeeze Mktila from two sides.
I mean, we'll really three. He's going to surround Mctela
with all these troops. So he's got all the extra
heavy artillery. He's got two visions weaker, you know, they
both forty ninth is a bit stronger, probably about twelve
thousand and eight thousand and eighteenth Division, so they're below establishment.
But you know, at this point, how is looking at
three thousand vehicles, He's probably got about fifteen thousand men,

(57:14):
so he is outnumbered and surrounded by.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
You will take.

Speaker 8 (57:21):
And so this period where because Japanese have this sort
of doctrine of don't ever let your enemy settle, you know,
counter attack immediately rather than gathering forces and counter attacking
in a Klausvisian strike with all of you, all of
your effort at the decisive point. And so what this
means is that Cowan can use all those advantages he

(57:43):
has with these mobile troops because, like I said earlier,
the seventeenth Indian Division are fully mechanized. Two hundred and
fifty fifth Tank Brigade Indian Tangragader are also fully mechanized,
being an armored brigade. And so the idea is that
whenever the Japanese arrive, now, whether they're using intelligence from locals,
which they're doing a lot. You know, in thunder Un,
I follow an intelligence officer who goes on to be

(58:05):
like the British Ambassador to the United Nations in the seventies.
He's an intelligence offer just asking locals where are the Japanese,
or or is er reconnaissance or armored car patrols, just
ordinary patrols. And what they do is whenever the Japanese
are then striking across all these different as the Japanese
are approaching, sorry, and the intelligence comes in, you know,

(58:26):
Japanese regiment or battalion has occupied so and so village
five miles to the northeast of the southwest whatever, Cowen
then sends an all arms column of maybe two squadrons
of tanks, a battery of priests, self propelled artillery guns,
and motorized infantry go to that village, clear that village.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
No intention of holding the village they are.

Speaker 8 (58:52):
The incomplete intention is that Kawen will send these columns
out kill as many of the Japanese as you can,
and then come back. And he's doing this simultaneously. There
might be six or seven of these going out every
single day. Sometimes it's less. Sometimes they spend a couple
of days away, so they'll go and camp twenty miles away.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Genuinely, in the middle.

Speaker 8 (59:12):
Of this battle, they're sending columns up to twenty miles
away near a town called pure Boy, which will become
a big battle late after this as well, and they'll
spend two three nights away doing this. And the whole
point is to destroy the Japanese army, to break the
Japanese armies back. It's not about taking territory this, it's
not about advancing any sort of front line. Go out

(59:33):
destroying Japanese, come back, no refit take on, take on
some more, more more ammunition. You know, Fiji guys, get
a good night, a better nice sleep, not good nicely,
that's a bit far, a better nice sleep.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
You know.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
You'll go out in a.

Speaker 8 (59:47):
Two days time and it's all on a slight rotation
depending on how many Japanese there are, And that's sort
of the middle phase of the battle.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
It's at this point that.

Speaker 8 (59:56):
Honda is given the job to actually strike properly. Now,
the important thing about the thunder On as well is
that it is a battle that is supplied completely by
air and Mechtila is also a target because it has
a large airfield that can take Sea forty seven to
code to Sea forty six commandos. So yeah, exactly, there's
a brilliant story behind this photo as well. So what

(01:00:19):
happens is is that Honda knows if we at least
neutralize the airfield, don't necessarily have to capture the airfield,
but neutralize the airfield, that will starve Cowen's thunder run,
will the gap the new garrison in Machtela, And so
he now puts the pressure on the airfield. So all

(01:00:42):
arms columns still go out. You know, there are still
Japanese troops fighting in these areas, and as the guns
of Naganuma Force are very movable, you know, the Japanese
are very good at moving their artillery, you know, shoot
and scoop type operations, you know, a bit like you
get with artillery in the modern day.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
To be honest, you know, our artillery.

Speaker 8 (01:01:00):
Often nowadays with modern the constants, they'll pop out, they'll fire,
and then they'll completely change position after ten rounds. Say,
you know, you hear that going on in Ukraine at
the moment quite a lot, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
The Japanese doing that.

Speaker 8 (01:01:11):
And there's this kind of cat and mouse battle throughout
this period, trying to destroy the guns on these sweeps.
But now the pressure builds on the airfield, so those
sweeps are still going on. It's still sending out his columns,
but now the Japanese are encroaching, so at night they're
sending a company late. On other times there's a battalion
or whatever and they're occupying the runway. And so every

(01:01:34):
single morning, people like the AREF Regiment, which were created
after the Battle of Crete in nineteen forty two. You know,
for the RAF Regiment, Meketila is like one of their
foundation myths, I mean myths, the wrong work, their foundation
legend in that this is where they earn their spurs.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
This is the time when they really show just how important.

Speaker 8 (01:01:52):
They are because whilst they can't do it all on
their own because of how big the operations and how
quickly they need to open the thin but they're the
ones that begin the every single morning of clearing the
Japanese out from whoever's come onto the airfield and it's
being shelled, which you can see in the photograph the
shell hold these guys are in, and so there's sort
of there's that mixture shelling and infantry occupying parts.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Of the airfield. Again, the Japanese know they.

Speaker 8 (01:02:16):
Probably can't capture it, but if they can starve the
British and Indian troops long enough that they might, they
would have to withdraw is the plan, probably the right plan,
but you know, and it's maybe a close run. Thing
is a bit much, but it's very stressful, and there
are whole days where they have to cut off supplies

(01:02:37):
and they end up doing it by a parachute instead,
which is not sufficient obviously, you know, it's harder to
bring bulk in. And the story behind this picture, by
the way, so the guy sitting down on the right
hand side is a guy called Ian Fidess. He's a
medical orderly basically, and his job is when soldiers are
brought onto the Dakota, which and is their Dakota.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
That's the flight crew.

Speaker 8 (01:02:58):
The pilot is the one of them on the left,
and the other one is the navigator, Jack Creech in
the middle of gott a part of his name note
annoyed me. But basically they're trying, they're they're evacuating wounded,
you know, and they've carried a load.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Of guys on board, including an.

Speaker 8 (01:03:12):
Awful one and two awful ones a guy called Bill Armor,
great name, by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Bill are.

Speaker 8 (01:03:19):
But he's he actually has shrapnel take the top of
his scalp off and so his brain is sort of
slightly exposed. He survives the war as well. This isn't editor,
but he's one of the ones that in this he's
been loaded onto the plane. And basically if you're if
your viewers are seeing this, and apologies to audio listeners,

(01:03:40):
but you can see that kind of just above the
engine cowling the back of the engine cowling that it's
been torn open, and basically a Japanese anti tank gun
has fired down the runway as they're preparing to take off.
It's fired down the runway and it's gone through the propeller,
which is amazing, and it's torn open, you know, you know,

(01:04:00):
and first of all, all bullets going through the propellers
like one in a million shot, but an armor piercing
un is torn through that engine.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
It collapses the undercarriage.

Speaker 8 (01:04:10):
So as they're about to take off, it collapses down
to the left and they come under more artillery and
machine gun fire. Basically, the Japanese were effectively ambushing this
aircraft having remained quiet, and so now they have to
unload it. In Fidess, the guy on the right of
the picture with the medical armband on, he's the one.

(01:04:32):
I mean, they all take part, but Fidess is the
one that does most of it. He rescues all of
the guys inside were wound and they don't lose a
single one, and drags them under fire across into an
air an old aircraft pen and basically gets some rescued.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
And there's a bit and you know, there's a bit
more to it.

Speaker 8 (01:04:47):
But you know, I recounted in the book, but he
went to military medal for rescuing all those guys and
getting them off there under fire.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
You know that the plane is shuddered a couple.

Speaker 8 (01:04:59):
Of times by by near misses by artillery as well
as being you know, they're being shot at by Japanese
machine there. It's quite a long range. But you know,
it doesn't matter that he could have done. He could
have underground, which other people did, and he didn't. You know,
plenty of others did help as well, but you know,
he's the guy at the heart of this. But that's
kind of like the story of the airfield battle. Is

(01:05:20):
that desperate battle to keep it open so that the
armor leges can continue elsewhere and keep them at Tina
Garrison fed and the wounded taken out as well. You know,
it's an amazing, amazing battle, really you know, and I said,
with the exception of the airfield where tanks are evolved
from there, we have to remember that, you know, this
is to me the greatest all arms maneuver battle of

(01:05:41):
World War two, simply because it is so comprehensive that
there is so little that goes wrong. Really, there are
stressful moments, but they and there are moments where you know,
it looks like it could all go wrong, but it doesn't,
you know, And it's a hard fight, grim fight at times, but.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
It is, but it is one of these these moments.

Speaker 8 (01:06:05):
Where really everything clicked at just the right moment and
they're able to be victorious and the Japanese end up
withdrawing and within you know, this battle has taken six weeks,
you know, from the thunder run beginning on the twenty
first of February to the end of March, you know,
six and a half seven weeks, sorry, five and a
half six weeks. And from here it's only six weeks

(01:06:29):
until Ranking is captured, so the same amount of time,
and that's five.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
Hundred miles away.

Speaker 8 (01:06:34):
You know, It's is an incredible like the follow up
battle is an incredible one, you know, which which is
I mean a single chapter in the book, but you know,
because the rest of it is that is, you know,
the thunder Run runs from the end of him file
through that monsoon. You know, African soldiers, Indian soldiers, British
soldiers are so on the crossing of earth to Chinduin
and the Irrawody and then the thunder run itself and

(01:06:58):
ending up with a surrender at ranging H.

Speaker 6 (01:07:01):
Well, we did have some member questions, and then go
ahead and bring those up now. And remember, listeners and viewers,
if you want to submittric questions, drop over to the
buyme a Coffee page. Become a member for five dollars
a month. I mean, come on, five bucks.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
That's it.

Speaker 6 (01:07:17):
But the two questions kind of come hand in hand.
The first question is should one read Forgotten Armor first?
And the follow up to that is, I see the
UK is raising a new unit, the King's Gurkha Artillery.
Can one say enough about the Gurkhas in Burma?

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
So no, you don't need to have bought Forgotten Armor beforehand.

Speaker 8 (01:07:37):
These are completely standalone books obviously that they're you know,
the theme that the theme that my covers are. You know,
my publisher Chieselbry has done a fantastic job with the
sort of the covers of both these two books at
that theme.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
But they are standalone.

Speaker 8 (01:07:52):
You know, you do not need to have read Read
and Forgotten Armor before you read Thunder round and in
Forgotten Armor, I do actually have a chapter on Makatina,
but obviously it's a single chapter, you know, And it
was right in that chapter I was like, I've got
to do the story from the entire perspective of everyone involved,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
In Forgotten arm or obviously it's just the tank side
of it.

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
This one, I've you know, in thunder On, I've got
things like, you know, I've got an artillery observation officer,
but he is a pilot, so he's flying Ulster tailorcraft ulsters,
you know, been like an l five stints and I
suppose you know, and he fought against the Italians and
the Germans in North Africa and Italy before going out
and becoming a pilot and then doing the area artillery

(01:08:33):
at Mectina. No, I've got em, and I've got infantry, Indians, British,
African and so on. So I'm telling a much much
more wide story in Thunder and much much more detailed
obviously because it's you know, it's ten times longer than
the chapter in Forgotten Armor.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
But yeah, the artillery one is fascinating.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
Now.

Speaker 8 (01:08:53):
I had a couple of big people and tweet me
about this because a couple of them said to me,
they're saying that the Gurkhas have never had infant before
in the public press release and they get off on
a technicality the British Army media guys, because they do
quite rightly say it's the first time that the Gurkhas.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Have had artillery in the British Army, because.

Speaker 8 (01:09:12):
They have of course had artillery in both Burner and
also in the Victoriana as well. But what's often forgotten
is that the Indian Army is completely administratively budgetary and
so and it is completely distinct from the British Army.
It is related, you know, it is a cousin, for
want of a better way of putting it, but they
are not immediate family, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
They, like we said.

Speaker 8 (01:09:34):
Earlier, if you're in the British Army and you want
to you know, you're a Sandhurst and you want to
go onto the Indian Army, you effectively transfer, you know,
you are leaving one entity and moving to a new one,
and so it's not really right to say that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
The also, it is absolutely right the.

Speaker 8 (01:09:51):
British Army gurk e ing it with artillery, but in
Burma they are I mean, in general, you know, Gurkha
soldiers are amazing soldiers.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
They're hardy, they're incredible dedicated.

Speaker 8 (01:10:00):
You know what's interesting is, you know, this is something
else that came up is that with the Bridgehamer's manpower
problems and especially in the current world, the Gurkhas are
a fantastic source because they turn away so many really
good candidates every single year. Because the Nepalese people want
to have their children become Girkhers and young boys want
to be Girkhas.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
It is a great mark of honor to be a
warrior in that society.

Speaker 8 (01:10:25):
And also to this fantastic pay as well compared to
what they would have if they stayed in the pool.
So you know, there is a lot of talk of
the fact that this might be part of the British rearmament,
and this is the first sign of it that the
Girkers will come in. Because there's also the sort of
the fact that they operate very well for Burma specifically
because they it is not a dissimilar environment, you know,

(01:10:47):
and they're on the edge of the Himalayas, so mountaineering
in particular as a part of you know, as part
of everyday life to them, living at altitude, you know,
and jungle whilst it's it's not primary jungle up in
the pool, but it is forested lots of fair is,
you know. It is more similar to that than say
a desert for example. So they do amazing work in

(01:11:07):
the in the jungles of Burma, and also in the
dry planes and so on, you know, you know, And
again I follow a number of Gurkha units in both
in both books that they come up, you know, and
a few Victoria Cross as well.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
You know. In the Forgotten Armor I mentioned the fact
that the Lama forgot his first name.

Speaker 8 (01:11:25):
Now feel bad about, but yeah, he Lama's Victoria Cross.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:11:31):
He takes up to Japanese type ninety five's memory serves
with ap you know, almost point blank range, you know,
crawls up to them, stalks them and takes that takes
both of them out a place called bish and Poor
in the southern part of the Ephile Plane during that battle, you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Know, and they're just fantastically brave soldiers.

Speaker 8 (01:11:49):
You know, it will be on it would always been
on it for a bridge sort of several times in
the modern day as well, I think.

Speaker 5 (01:11:56):
Will all right, we've made it to a unique part
of our show. What Boohiggy History is, it's it's a
myth that people get wrong. It's something that people, you know,
take away out of proportion, or just something that someone
made up and ran with it one day. So what

(01:12:16):
Boohiggy History looks to do is dispel bad history. And
god knows, we know that there are plenty of bad
history takes out there, like just recently the Department of Defense.
But that May eight was in the war came to
an end to which my you know, I mean they're

(01:12:37):
college age students, but even my college age students knew
better than that. And they were freshmen at that and
it's not even like they're my senior level students. They
knew that May eighth was v e Day, not you know,
victory in all of Europe, so they or victory in
all of the Second World War, you know, But anyway,
they don't listen to us, you know, when anybody ever

(01:12:59):
listen to.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
His story, or whatever. It's a rear.

Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
But now is the time that people can worians. So, Jack,
what do you want to just spell? What is your
favorite myth sort of bugger bust speak.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
Yeah, I mean one of them.

Speaker 8 (01:13:12):
One of them is you saying exactly that you know
that vg VJ day exists.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
That would be a nice one.

Speaker 8 (01:13:18):
So that's the more obvious one, and that's the actual
end of the Second World War realistically.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
So my big one.

Speaker 8 (01:13:26):
Would be what's probably obvious one from something we talked
about earlier. Burma is not just monsoon in jungle. It
is not just infantry slogging through.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:13:34):
That's a big part of the first book Forgotten Armories.
We have to remember that actually there is more than
just guys who are you know, hacking with machetes through
thick jungle, you know, like they're in Predator or something.
That is not what the bugger campaign is like for
all of it. And the crucial thing is that the

(01:13:55):
decisive battles, the two decisive battles, which is not thick jungle.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
It is secondary jungle.

Speaker 8 (01:14:03):
It's scrub and it's fought on the hillsides of mountains
that are there.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Therefore, once you.

Speaker 8 (01:14:09):
Get to above a certain level. It's not saying this
not jungle, but a secondary jungle. The Infile play in particular,
large parts of the Battle of in File are thoughts
on what is effectively an open plane, not even though
it's actually it's technically as a valley, but it's twenty
five miles.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
Across forty five million miles north south. A lot of
the fighting there is like fighting on save the Eastern Front.

Speaker 8 (01:14:31):
You know, it's small wooden villages a lot of the time,
and its movement between them. There is fighting up in
the mountains again, but we go back to my main point.
It's secondary jungle and things like the Royal Engineers are
dragging tanks up the mountains and so on.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
You know, said, actually, I have just remember that. The
day after.

Speaker 8 (01:14:47):
Recording this is the annivers the eighty eighty first anniversary
of the tennis court at Kahima being cleared. And the
only difference between the previous thirty nine days of battle
over the tennis court is on the thirteenth of May,
I was forty four they bring one M three medium
Grant tank and eighteen minutes they clear it. You know,

(01:15:07):
thirty nine days of battle by infantry one tank in
eighty minutes, they take it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Okay, that's the end.

Speaker 8 (01:15:14):
Part to my myth is it is not just wanting
in jungle and how important tanks are. You know, you
get that one tank in, you get a right tank
in the right place in Burma. And it's not all
jungle because in Maketila it's on an open plane that's
almost desert. You get a tank in the right place
in Burma. You have the ultimate difference between the two
armies because you know, the Japanese anti tank capability is

(01:15:37):
so bad. You know, the anti tank guns aren't good enough,
and the suicide attacks at the end of the day,
just that that's not a long term strategy.

Speaker 6 (01:15:44):
That's panic Frankly, Yeah, how to depoint an army in
sixty days?

Speaker 4 (01:15:49):
Realise? Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:15:50):
Yeah, Now, Jack, you've listened to the show bo you
know what time it is. We've got all segment. Here's
what's in your cup? And I think I'm in the
toss to Jack go first.

Speaker 3 (01:16:02):
So I have a confession to make in that.

Speaker 8 (01:16:04):
You know, British people have something of a tendency to
drink a lot, you know, and I was at Uni.
I was one of those guys that you know, drank
a lot with a hockey team. But I played hockey
at university, so you know, doing a boat race and
you know, racing to pin down pints and things like
that was was a part of my upbringing. And so
actually I've actually already drunk my beer over the weekend

(01:16:27):
that I bought especially for tonight. But the thing that
I would that I would have, I think is on brand,
but it's one of my favorite beer is quite strong.
One is called Jaipour India. Pale ale comes like an
orange tin. You know, it's got beautiful sort of markings
on it. But that that that's.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
One of my favorite. That's my goal to beer, and
I drank it over the weekend of.

Speaker 6 (01:16:48):
Go yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
You who like control as well?

Speaker 5 (01:16:51):
Yes, I I oftentimes self control and as the person
which Jack if you ever have the opportunity to come
to the States, if you if you have them already,
I'm not sure avoid a drink called for loco, as
the name might imply it is indeed loco.

Speaker 4 (01:17:11):
Just don't drink four of them like I did. I
went into liver failure. I'm on my second liver.

Speaker 5 (01:17:16):
I'm only kind of that is a joke, but I
am still technically on the clock for the next hour
or so.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
So what's in my cup?

Speaker 5 (01:17:27):
And I hope, I hope Doctor Robin, you know, isn't
listening to this episode because he's gonna be wondering why
his staff is drunk on, you know, But thank god
I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:17:36):
I don't lack that amount of self control.

Speaker 5 (01:17:40):
But instead I have something that could arguably jump start
the heart of an elephant. A little bit of Monsters
Ultra Strawberry dream with one hundred and fifty milligrams of caffeine,
I could seemingly jump start the heart of an elephant.

Speaker 4 (01:17:55):
But it's been wonderful. It's delicious. I hate that I
like them. I really do. They get me through the day.
How about you?

Speaker 6 (01:18:03):
I'm here to be a disappointment as usual. Uh you
saw me drinking my big bottle of water. Here my
various stickers, including some designs by the Bearded historian himself,
Jeff Williams. Dropped down into the comments section and find
out more. And then the other one, my other cup.
Because I'm a man of many cups and bottles.

Speaker 9 (01:18:25):
You'll you'll really, you'll really hate me for this one
boat is a my favorite coffee, which is a honey
out most but I did it with a tea instead,
and I've got to say I was smiling.

Speaker 3 (01:18:43):
I was rescued from Boston Harbor clearly.

Speaker 4 (01:18:49):
As well.

Speaker 8 (01:18:49):
I actually have a mug. So the Burma campaign is
not just in for true in jungle.

Speaker 5 (01:18:57):
It's funny that you brought up Boston Harbor. I wanted
to cry real tears.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
The other day. I asked preemptively.

Speaker 10 (01:19:08):
One of my students, because the student is in a
civilization course with me and we usually end around the
Second World War, and I asked her, I said, what
was the event that brought the United States into the
Second World War?

Speaker 4 (01:19:23):
She goes, thanks real hard on it too, and the answer, well,
it kind of made me say, she said, was that
the Boston Tea party and then and the tea would bombs.

Speaker 8 (01:19:52):
I pretty want a while ago I had. I had
this couple of years ago. But I have a student
who said to me search about time zones. And I
was like yeah, yeah, and she was I never excited.
This in a classic sort of British school kid from
from accent.

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
So so do know about about time times? Yes? Yes,
I know about time zones.

Speaker 8 (01:20:15):
Why didn't Australians warn America about nine eleven?

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
If they're ahead, why didn't they let them know? I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):
A student, but wow, you see when they said that
there are no dumb questions?

Speaker 11 (01:20:34):
Yeah, yeah, no dumb questions until the ones I'm now
writing down for the memoir and years.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
Yeah. I believable.

Speaker 6 (01:20:48):
You guys get it in the classroom. I had it
in like a public facing, like from adults of historic site.
I mean, when you talk about the American Civil War
for an hour and somebody still walked up to you
at the end and goes, so, who won? It's like,
you mean the you mean the battle?

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
No? No, no, no, who won the war?

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
America?

Speaker 4 (01:21:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
Yeah, but America?

Speaker 4 (01:21:13):
All right.

Speaker 6 (01:21:14):
Well, now that he's ragged on society, students and everything else,
Jack is a pleasure listeners. The book is Thunder on
mcteen in nineteen forty five, the greatest combined arms maneuver
battle of World War Two, which I don't think is
saying too much. He is Jack Fauger, and you can
find him on the Forgotten War podcast, and you can

(01:21:36):
follow him on Blue Sky and all those other things.
But on behalf of Homer History bo Joe. I want
to thank you Jack for coming on the show, and
thanks to everybody for listening. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
Cheers everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
Thanks so much for having me Chase places, Whole.

Speaker 1 (01:22:03):
Crew, that Whole Crew, talking about whole crew, and reminding
the total crew a history pod past, going back to
the past with Littlest pass it by.

Speaker 4 (01:22:22):
Ging you a gas.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
Are you bite inspired?

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
But You'll never get tired of Whole Crew, That Whole Crew.
Top scholars on

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
Show with Joey Boo That Whole Crew, Whole Crew,

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