November 27, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of Houselights, we navigate through Kathryn Bigelow's "K-19: The Widowmaker," focusing on its technical brilliance and narrative challenges. We discuss the film's claustrophobic cinematography, the nuanced performances of Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson, and the historical context that frames this gripping submarine drama. While the film excels in its technical execution, the emotional connection with the characters remains elusive, leaving us with a complex yet compelling cinematic experience.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back to House Lights, our director discussion show here
on the Nerd Party Network. This week, we're continuing to
look at the works of Catherine Bigelow with her only
PG thirteen film two thousand and two's K nineteen, The
Widow Maker, telling the tale of the nineteen sixty one
Soviet submarine reactor failure and the heroic efforts of the crew.
(00:42):
Star Wars heroes Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson lead this
gripping man versus radiation story Beneath the Waves. I'm your
host this evening, Darren New doctor Moser, and I'm joined
again by my friends Tristan ice Cap Riddell and Pipe
Fitting Safety Inspector number three John Mills.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Wait, am I am? I just a block of ice?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
No, that's your nickname, your ice Cap. You're like you
got off the ship and you're in when we're about
to take the photo the last good day of our lives.
You've got a cool nickname. Okay, John, we blame for everything.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I'm sorry, I am the reason that everything went wrong,
which honestly that pretty much tracks with my life and
this podcast, so you know, fitting choice.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
If we ever cover a Paul thirteen. Just know where
you're going to rank.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Okay, Oh, I know, I'm fully aware, I get that,
I get.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I'm actually I know this is completely off topic, but
I'm kind of surprised we haven't done Howard. We haven't
done House of Howard Ron House. There's plenty of them,
that's true. That's another' here no there, Darren, please no, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
But hey, that's how things end up on the list.
And you too can contact us at the nerd party
dot com if you want to let us know what
you think we should record. Maybe we'll listen, maybe we won't,
but it usually the good ideas do end up eventually
down the list. Don't ask how long the list is, listeners,
(02:15):
because it's a it's fairly long. I think we're booked
through mid January right now. But here, there, here, no there, John,
this is your first time going beneath the waves with
K nineteen The Widow Maker. You were not caught up
with apparently the early two thousands submarine vibe that was
(02:36):
going on, because there were quite a few films. We're
gonna just look from eighty nine to two thousand and four.
I have at least a dozen of these. We Hunt
for Red October and ninety, Crimson Tide in ninety five,
down Periscope in ninety six. I'm gonna kind of count
Sphere in ninety eight U five seven to one, which
(02:58):
I think was a lot of people will sometimes confuse
with this one in two thousand and below in two
thousand and two, same year as Widow Maker. And then
maybe we could talk about League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or
The Life Aquatic with Steve's issue. Yeah later, nice choice,
but there so there's a we love our submarines, But
this one again we're looking at a semi historical take
(03:23):
on an actual event that occurred, it said in the sixties,
where it was a little weird for me looking at
the modernness, like I'm so used to like diesel subs
and World War two, this that this was a little
more modern than I was expecting. But John, did you
know anything about this? Did you? Except for the stars
(03:43):
or maybe the poster or this one just passed you by.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Well, you mentioned Hunt for October and Crimson Tide, and
I got to be honest with you that when you're
the old man and you saw both of those in
the movie theater, other submarine movies surface from time to time,
and you're like, that's cute. You stay over there. I've
already seen two of the greatest submarine movies that could
ever be made. You got to really, really, really convince
(04:10):
me to go to the theater and then, I'll be honest.
It was a terrible marketing push. I mean, Number one
is coming out in the summer. Bad choice Number two.
Harrison Ford plays a Russian sub captain in the Cold War.
I'm like, that's a whole bunch of words that just
don't make any sense to me. And the poster was, look,
(04:31):
the poster sucks. The poster is Harrison Ford scowling at me,
looking like he's being a grumpy old man. He's like,
you better not come into theater and see my movie.
I'm like, all right, fine, I won't come see it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
No joke. I was going to start playing. I have
multiple monitors. As I was working, and I had I
was during my lunch, I had K nineteen up, and
I had the menu up, and I was just like, oh,
I get I gotta get to this to this email
real quick, and I keep out of the corner of
my eye. Harrison Ford was just looking at me disapprovingly, like, Judge,
(05:03):
you really need to use that semi colon.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I literally turned it off because I couldn't handle it.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Well, now you know how I felt they were trying
to convince me to go see the movie. No, so yeah,
and I knew, like I think I saw something that
I don't remember if it's on the post or not,
where it's like inspired by true events. And I was like,
all right, that's fine, sure, and it just wasn't enough
to get me in the theater honestly, I mean, but
I mean, seriously, I think releasing this in July of
(05:35):
two thousand and two is basically like release calendar suicide,
because it's like, you know, May of two thousand and two,
there was a little Star Wars movie that came out
that you know, wasn't still all the hotness in July,
But wasn't this the same summer as like like Men
in Black two or something like that, And uh.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, it was a decent summer for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Why on earth would you take a movie like this
and throw it up against competition like that.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That's not I don't understand fall movie.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
This is an award season movie.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I was like, this is a prestige film. Yeah, you know,
why would you put it in the summer?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, this is like you're gonna see a movie with
your dad after Thanksgiving? And this is what you guys
go see.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like that spot that's all they should They should have
on the on the post, on the poster.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The movie you'll see if you're gonna see what movie
with your dad after Thanksgiving? C K nineteen, The Widow Makers.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I'm gonna now two dollars off your ticket if you
bring in a selfie of you and your dad eating
turkey before you go in there, you go.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
You won't have an appetite after the film, So watch
it after Thanksgiving?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Oh my god. Okay, So I work. I work in
my basement, like I work from work from home, like
three days out of the week. And so but you know,
like I'm surrounded by all my kids crap, you know,
and all their toys and everything like that, and so
I normally keep the basement door open, but when it's shut,
it means don't come down. Dad's watching watching something spooky.
(07:09):
And so I was. I told my wife, I was like, hey,
I'm gonna go watch something a little spooky. So just
let the kids know, and she's like, oh, is it
fun spooky? I was like, no, it's Russian young men
dying from radiation poisoning. And she's like, so not fun spooky.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Apparently when researching for this film, like they
toned it way down, Apparently, like they looked up, you know,
radiation exposure and what it does to you, and they
made it much more sanitized than what actually probably would
have happened. Like, it's really bad.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Have either of you Seennobyl on HBO.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I've seen lots of clips of Chernobyl.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I've watched it one hundred percent, Yet you're not the
same after you watch that series.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
That series they shy away from it, like they did
not lessened the effects, especially with one individual in particular.
And for those of you who've watched, you know what
I'm talking about, and it's it's oh my god, it's
it's just gruesome. It's just radiation.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Terrible way to go.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, one has to be one of the worst ways
to go.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Well, I mean considering that it's basically your entire body
just starts decomposing while you're walking around in it, that's
that's a pretty tough road to hoe.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I mean, and the psychological effect of knowing, like, because
I went into that room, I'm going to die, like
but you not instantly, but like it's it's the unseenness
of radiation. It's like just diabolical and how it's yeah,
it's gonna get you, but it's not like a traditional attack.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Is yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it. It's I don't
know that you could show it any more graphically in
this movie without getting like an R rating bordering on
an NC seventeen like this is. And I think that's
the unfortunate thing is they are towing that line, and
(09:11):
I think as a result, it does work to the
detriment of the movie a little bit because of the
fact that when they come out and you see them,
you understand, you know, contextually, I understand why Peter Sarsgar's
character Richenko freaks out and won't go in. It's a
very relatable moment. It's like you don't judge that character.
(09:34):
You're like, yeah, okay, I get why you're freaking out here.
But I think that if they had gone a little
more hardcore with what it looked like, I think it
would have made them even more sympathetic in that moment.
And so I'm not like arguing that like stuff should
have been falling off of them or anything. I just
think it could have gone a little bit harder in
(09:56):
that scene.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, like instead of my coming out and vomiting, you know,
and heap freaking out, it's like, oh, you see the
horror on his face, because there's little horror on their faces. Yeah,
I get that. Yeah, I get that completely. And I'm
really glad that both of you got that. Not that
I thought anything different, but I'm really glad that both
of you guys didn't put him in a box. Because
(10:21):
we all, you know, all of us want to think
that we're the hero of our own story, that we
would rise up and do what's right and do what's
best for us and everyone else and everything like that.
But in that moment, you have no idea what you
would do until you're in that moment.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Oh absolutely. And I think that it's also great that,
whether that's actually part of the true account or not,
I think it's very important to have that character have
that reaction because that shows how heroic these guys were
being in what they were doing. But also there's a
huge payoff for him at the end. Because he does
(10:59):
go in and he knows full well what's about to
happen to him, and it's just it's it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, it's interesting. How for you know Verchenko, it's I'm
not gonna say it's his story, but he's definitely a
major player. Like I would say he's number three as
far as story focus goes, and the choices he makes,
and and like you said, having that setup really enhances
(11:27):
the payoff later when he makes the choice. He's in
there for eighteen like he's in there a long time
basically like to get it done, and we know that
it's you know, he when they're listing that so many died,
I know that he's one of them. Like I don't
even doubt, Like it's not like, oh maybe he lived,
Just no, I know that's not even a plausible solution.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
The only thing that undercut that moment so hard for
me was when Harrison Ford's character when they when like
the timbers are starts going down and like the water
starts going through and everything like that, and Harrison Ford
goes he made himself a hero.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe that delivery wasn't the best
the Lion the delivery of it.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
It was just it's it sucked all the air out
of the room and it's just like I said, it's
just undercut it.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
For me, Ford is the best in this when he
is Kurt and saying very little like and just presence like,
not that he doesn't say anything, because he says a
lot really well in this, but it's definitely a less
is more and you know, we get Radjenko, we get
the soldier who jumps off the boat and is like,
(12:47):
I'm not going back in, you know, And again I
think it was important to show it's not like everybody
fell apart, but there's just enough resistance that you're like, yeah,
they're all having to make that decision. Or even the
end where where the captain asks them and they all
I mean, for me, that was kind of an emotional
(13:08):
part when they're all ticking through the compartments and they're
all saying, you know, we're going to do our duty
and it and it mirrors again, you know, we haven't
talked about directing yet, but I love how it mirrors
the opening sequence of that when they're getting ready to
go down for the first time, as they're getting underway
and it's the exact same sequence of the compartments reporting in,
(13:31):
but there's so much more weight. Yeah, because of what
we've been through.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, I I I. The tough thing for me is
that there were certain moments Traysia. I'm glad you called
out Ford's line there. He made himself a hero. I
think that there is a and this this is gonna
sound weird, but I think like this sort of is
Bigelow's strength and her weakness as a director. It's a
(13:58):
very fine line for her to walk where what this
movie is lacking is that ability to connect with me
so that I'm I'm actually like viscerally rooting for somebody
on the crew where I'm rooting for them in a
very personal sense. If you go to hunt For, if
(14:20):
you go to hunt For at October, it's not even
Sean Connery for me, it's not even really Jack Ryan.
It's Sam Neil's character, the guy that just wants to
go to Montana, that guy and like You're like, you're
you're really emotionally invested in that guy because he's he's
the innocent soul. He's like, uh, I just I just
want to have a good life, man, right. Crimson Tide
(14:41):
Denzel Washington. Beginning to finish, You're like, he's awesome. I
love him as my commander. He's a great dude. I'm
with him the whole way, so that when the conflict
happens at the end, there's not even a question. There's
not a chance I'm on Gene Hackman's side. Even before
that conversation that Tarantino wrote, I'm completely with Denzel from
(15:02):
beginning to finish. There's no character like that that it
latch onto here. I don't know if you guys felt
the same way. The closest I came was Liam Neeson's character.
I think he's supposed to be the most sympathetic character
of the hero characters that you see, where it's like,
you know, you can understand what he's going through the best.
But even that gets undercut because true to life or not.
(15:25):
When he's like, hey, good job with the mutiny, guys,
Now give me the gun and the key. All right,
you guys are under arrest, and then at the end
he even like he's like an ass to the guy
who was like just doing what he thought was right.
I was like, uh, but you all still went for
the like I'm very confused by the ending, I'm like,
I don't know what I'm supposed to feel about these
guys at the end.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, when Liam Neeson, you know, I feel like for
his character, I just made the connection in my mind.
He's kind of like Deckerd in Star Trek the motion picture,
where he's the captain, he has the most nulled and
then you know, Comrade Kirk comes in and just says, Nope,
(16:06):
you know, you're sorry. You have to stay on and
run the ship for me.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
But I'm the captain now, which is even funnier.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Picturing Kirk and like that Chay Gavar T shirt with
their beret, just picturing William Shanner in that.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
But the thing that makes that even funnier for me, Darren,
is that the whole relationship of Kirk and Deckerd is
modeled after a previous Robert Wise movie Run. I think
it's Run Silent, Run Deep, where the same sort of
command structure upheaval happens where the senior guy comes in
and takes the captaincy from a guy. So it's that's
a funny thread to follow all the way through.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I did find that relationship dynamic really interesting because they
went out of their way to show that Nissan took
it like a champ, like he took it as a
true professional, where it was no, this is this is
the job. I'm not losing my rank. I'm just you know,
losing my position. I'm the exo. I'm still on this boat.
I'm still with my guys. It's totally cool. If that's
(17:09):
what the Motherland wants, that's what they're going to get.
But he still felt a responsibility to the ship and
the crew in a way like a captain would. But
at the same time, they didn't show him as a saint.
It wasn't clear that like, oh, Ford is the big
bad because he represents you know, the Soviet and government,
and you know, Nissan is just the guy. He's the
(17:29):
man's man, he's the men of the people. Nothing like that.
It was you know, I felt like they did a
really nice job of showing Ford as like, this is
not the men's fault, this is your fault. This is
the officer's fault for not setting clear expectations for the men.
And also it showed Nissan being way too chummy with
(17:52):
his men and way too laid back, and the fact
that he was trying to defend a man who was
drunk on the job on a sub It goes back
and forth where there is a lot of gray area
where there is no clear antagonist and clear protagonist, and
I felt like normally I would be like, Okay, well
(18:14):
is this protagonist confusion? But it also felt applicable and
where it wasn't like a poorly written novel where you're like, oh,
this is the bad guy, clearly, this is the guy
who's it's gonna screw everybody over in the end.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I mean to speak to that point though, Like what
I never got was a scene where I felt like
Ford had some sort of humanizing moment, real humanizing moment
with Nissan where he's like, just you know, I mean
to go back to Star Trek the motion picture. At
least we got that scene with Kirk was like stop
fighting me, deckerd you know, like that sort of thing.
(18:50):
Like I needed a scene like that to really establish
the dynamic between the two of them, and I don't
think that I got it here.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean I will slightly disagree. I think we didn't
get a one for one of that. But when he
backs forward after the mutiny, I think that is the
essence of that where it is really clearly drawing. It's
later in the game, but it really clear is drawing
the relationship between the two.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It's I am, I am so late in the game.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah it is too late, but yeah, I mean what
you're daring.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
You're not wrong.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Maybe an earlier scene, not with that much weight behind it,
but where he demonstrably backs the captain and then somebody's like, dude,
the hell, like why are you backing this guy? And
he's like because he's the captain and like walks off
or something like you know, like I a stronger just
one stronger scene would have given me a little bit
(19:49):
more to to hold on to.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I love that Joss Ackland, the uh the one of
the big wig Russian guys with that white hair, Yes, sir, Yes,
I love that. He is also in Right October. Yes, and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I really same character.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Basically, and I half expected like it to end with
with somebody coming to him and saying you lost another submarine.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, yeah, he's got the voice like he is. Just
if he plays all the Russian hierarchy in every movie,
I wouldn't even care. I would just be like, this
is the Josh Ackland universe. Of running the Fatherland.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
You know, it's like that one guy who always plays
the Chicago cop.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly, but you know also.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Johnson of Russian leadership.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, it's not even going down that rabbit hole. And
that's a crazy one. Yeah yeah, No, I mean, Ackland
is great in in what little he's given to do.
But I mean, am I, you know, am I the
only one, like I've really had a hard time connecting
with the movie, Like I thought there was so much
like that. One of the things that that I thought
(21:12):
of while I was watching it, this is my first time,
was what we were talking about last week with Strange Days,
where we were talking about the camera being in super
tight spaces and it I will say that this, okay,
the Hunt for in October and Crimson Tide, those sets
are very dramatic, dramatically lit, very you know, very film submarines.
(21:35):
This felt like I was actually on a submarine and
the tight spaces. I found the filming to be amazing
in this because I felt cramped when they were. I
felt like I was trying to squeeze through corridors and
getting through with like a giant you know camera and
you know roll speed you know, like and running through
and everything that had to be just hell in the production.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, I read in research that apparently they developed a
rail system that went down the ceiling and that is
what the camera was hooked on, and then they painted
it out so it blended in and that's how they
because yeah, they it was the size. It wasn't like, oh,
we just swing out this you know this wall and
it's like no, no, we are in a tin can.
(22:21):
It was obviously a set, but it was an actual,
you know, submarine set, and yeah, you feel that claustrophobia.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
You know me.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I think we're all kind of on the same page
as far as when there are certain locations you need
to know where you are. That's kind of important. And
in this one, while I never had a full mental
picture of the sub I could still understand of like, oh,
there's the command room, there's the you know, torpedo room.
(22:52):
Like I knew where, I know what room I was
in at any given time. I just maybe didn't know
what the next room connecting is was.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yes, all right, So okay, Darren, I know you're gonna
laugh at me, but you mentioned diagram No, I like, okay,
So this This movie was shot by Jeff Cronenworth, who
is a fantastic DP. You know, he's known for Fight Club,
(23:21):
Social Network. You know, this guy knows what he's doing
and this this John, like you said, this movie is
really well shot. But Darren, when you were talking about
like geography, like knowing where you are and everything like that, No,
Lie Down Periscope had some of the best geography when
it came to a submarine, like you knew exactly where
(23:42):
you were and where it was placed in the submarine.
And for those of you who were who say like, oh, well,
you know, like it's a you know, it's a modern
movie shot at modern times, Like Nope, they were on
a World War two sub Okay, so it was even
smaller than the K nineteen. But yeah, and I just
needed to throw that out there because it's a movie.
(24:03):
But it's it's shut.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You got the Typhoon class in uh in Crimson or no,
in Hunter ad October, which is like the giant Cadillac
of subs. You know, it's so they're.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Gonna be stationed on a sub you want to be
on the Typhoon Class. I mean, let's be honest. Plenty
of breathing road.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I was thinking no.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
So we talked about the look. We talked about, yeah,
the the kind of rooting for a group rather than
an individual kind of vibe of this movie. Like, except
for a few standouts, it's really the crew is how
we kind of view it, at least how how I.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Rooting for the group instead of the individual. What kind
of red comie talk is that.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
He got into the spirit of the I mean, obviously movie, yes,
it's Soviets Russia movie watches you.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
When? Okay, when when they were watching that film of
like the worst parts of America, and then he said
he's like, he's like, don't He's like, don't let American
propaganda fool you, you know, with everybody you know, like
having their own car, wearing nice clothes and individualism. And
then like part of me, like a real big part
of me as an American, kind of popped perked up,
(25:23):
and I was like, individualism, Yeah, rock on.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
That's pretty great. I think it's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Like I started playing an electric guitar in my head
while a bald eagle was screaming over my head.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I was like, hey, yeah, hey, hey, hey, hey, you know,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
We'll get the Team America World Police in here and
they'll set it all straight.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
And yeah, they'll straight they'll straighten everything out. Now, I
think that I thought it was it was very smart
to include that scene, though because of the fact that
we don't typically get to see how like that. I
don't know that everybody understands the historical perspective of the
idea of the political officer. Yes, he was there on
(26:05):
Hunt For in October as the secret antagonist to stretch
out Act three and stuff like that, but like it
really was a way of life. You had a guy
who went around that was like, oh, no, this is
what you believe, just to remind you. And if you
don't believe that, then I'm gonna report you, you know,
like that the school leg right exactly. And it's I
(26:29):
think it's very good that this movie included it, so,
you know, tip of the hat to the script and
to keeping it in you know, the production, to really
underline how much of a part of life.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
It was for them. Also, I really appreciated what Bigelow
was doing with this because at no point did you
feel like, oh, you know, like so many times in
war movies, even though this wasn't during a time of war.
You know, it was a Cold War, but it was
you have the goodies and the baddies. And even when
you watching something like dust Boot, you know like you're
(27:03):
you're watching it and you're like, Okay, these are clearly
the bad guys. I mean, yeah, these are people conscripted
and they may not believe what they're believing, but they're
still in the bad They're still on the bad side.
You know, like with with this, with this movie and
the way that Bigelow is betraying the crew the ship
and their mission and their purpose. There was no declaration
of good versus evil. It was we're here to protect
(27:27):
the Soviet Union. We're here to show them that we
can advance, we can shoot dismissial and we can be there,
and it's just to show them and it's just like
we're showing a show of strength and this is what
we believe. It was just I'm having a hard time
articulating it, but it was just it was a great
way to show the other side of the fence, or
(27:50):
actually say curtain where it was. It was an interesting
peak behind the curtain, and it was it was not
like oh well there, you know, like it's a bad
cause led by bad people, with bad people on the boat.
It was just here's the other side that you don't
normally see, not glorifying it, not vilifying it. I thought
(28:11):
that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
So you think it would be fair to say there
are heroes on both sides, evil as everywhere. Would you
think that's a fair couple of lines to throw out there?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Maybe, no, I'm not going to say that. You're not
going to say that. I'm not going to say that
you agree. I would agree with a great philosopher who
put that out there, But you know, hey, that's just me. Well,
and the accent is that No, you know what, I'm
glad you brought I'm glad Tristan brought this up. The
accents not really because it they didn't lean into it
(28:41):
really hard. They gave like hint of accent, but so like,
it wasn't egregious, It wasn't Uh, it wasn't Leonardo DiCaprio
attempting an Irish accent in Gangs of New York.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Or even worse, Cameron Diaz attempting an Irish accent in case.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
The thing is, I don't consider that attempting an Irish accent,
because I don't know what she was attempting at Gangs
of New York. Honestly, it's first I've heard somebody actually
call it an Irish accent. So okay, then no, the
little hint of accent was enough for me. I mean,
I'm still of the camp where it's like they don't
(29:24):
they're speaking Russian to each other, none of them have
an accent.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Okay, okay, okay, I've for decades, I've gone back and
forth on this where that is a very solid argument.
That is a very solid argument where you're like, okay, yeah,
I mean, if you're on a Russian boat or Soviet boat,
they're going to be speaking Russian to each other. They're
not going to be speaking English with a Russian accent.
We get it. But at the same time, my brain
(29:52):
needs some sort of otherness, needs some sort of foreign
entity to tell me that this is a different place,
because okay, so I felt like it worked in Valkyrie
because they didn't attempt any accents there, but they did
the Red October thing where like, you know, Tom Cruise
(30:13):
is like writing in his journal or writing a letter
and he's speaking Russian and as he's writing it turns
into English and you hear him narrating his own voice,
and it turns into English, and then everybody's just like
either British or American or whatever, it doesn't matter, it
doesn't matter they're German. But then there was another submarine movie.
I can't remember which one, but it had David ducoveny
and Ed Harris and they're Russian and they didn't have
(30:36):
any accents whatsoever. It was just Ed Harris being Ed
Harris and David Coveney being David d' coveney, and it
felt freaking wrong.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I love both of those actors that you named, but
I would say it's because their vocal range is such
that it's impossible to hear anything but sort of an
American region to how they're speaking, if that makes sense.
They have very uniquely American speech.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
That's true. Dakuny and Harris are very uniquely American, it's true.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Whereas like Harrison Ford has a more neutral and Liam
Neeson you know, is Irish like so it's like it's,
you know, one of those things.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Now.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I think the handling of the dialect was enough
that I didn't even think about it of like, oh yeah,
that's right. They're all speaking in Russian. It's just I
think they leaned into the it's a movie, and understandability
is king if your audience cannot understand what you're saying,
(31:43):
you know, and that's the route you know that she went,
which isn't bad, it's just you know, not one of
the pillars of the of the film. But yeah, I
liked what you were talking about, Tristan as far as
the plot, where it is rare for a war movie,
a submarine war movie, to be like, this is a
(32:06):
disaster movie. It's them versus the situation, Like the Americans
are barely in it, and like there's no there's not
a single torpedo being fired in this whole movie. The torpedo,
I mean technically it rolls over a guy inside the
you know, the.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Submarine ruins the dude's hand.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Hell yeah, yeah, But I like, yeah, like you said,
it's and we've all heard this before and other stories
of no one sees themselves as a villain, you know,
the one writes themselves in the story as that and
and this is just the other side of the curtain.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But but you know, as we're slowly rounding towards ratings.
You know, I felt like we've given this film a
pretty decent once over, you know, as far as story
and characters. But John, you look like so you have
something on your mind.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
Well, we haven't talked about the editing yet, which is
something we have to talk about. Because a legendary editor
worked on this film, Walter freaking Merch worked on this film.
I gotta ask, did this seem like it was legendary editing?
(33:25):
I mean, like, you know, I didn't realize it was
Walter Merch until I revisited the credits and stuff like that,
and I was like, really, Walter Merch. Now. The thing is, like,
I thought the way things were put together was was
well paced. I thought everything worked together, you know, pretty
well in both a micro and a macro. But like,
(33:47):
is it unfair to say that, Wow, Walter Merch worked
on this, But I don't feel like this was a
you know, a tremendous editing work, if that makes sense,
Like are my expectations?
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Why That's why Walter Merch is one of the best
ever is because you didn't have a feeling one way
or the other. True, Like you didn't think, oh, this
is really poor editing, or like oh man, the editing
in that was amazing. Like if you were watching something
like that by Tony Scott or Fincher or something, don't
(34:19):
want to notice it. Merch is the king of not
being noticed. He is a silent hunter. He is the
one that you bring in when you want a well
crafted story and something that is well edited that does
not insist upon itself. It is something that is just
He's so streamlined. He knows exactly how to trick your
(34:41):
brain and trick your eyes into not seeing what you saw.
That's why this was fair to Merch.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Very very fair. I mean, because the thing is, like
I was saying, like when you're moving through the sub
when you have the scenes cutting back and forth, it
is all really strong stuff, but it is I like
the way you put it. He's silent about it. There's
nothing here to draw attention to the edit, like you said,
as opposed to like a Tony Scott movie where it's
(35:12):
like you know that the jet fighters are flying around
in top gun and it's like what wait what what's cool?
This looks awesome? But wait what this is? This is
a very I can tell everything that's going on, and
I understand everything that's going on. I actually think there
were a couple of I applauded this for the fact that,
(35:34):
I mean, you know, especially the era this comes out
underwater CG is the most forgiving CG that you can make.
But I really enjoyed the fact that they did the
thing where they were inside and they would keep going
up and your brain is like, okay, well you have
to stop because that's the ceiling. But then it kept
going and you went through the shell of the sub
(35:56):
to show the difference between the outer hull and the
inner hall, and then go up and go out into
the water after that to see everything larger. I thought
that was a great choice.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Now, when we talk about films, we rarely talk about
sound design. I mean, it is a piece of the
film puzzle. But I found myself in this one specifically,
there was one sound in particular that really stood out
to me, and I don't know if it was the
(36:31):
same for you guys, but the flickering of the radiation
alarm light bulb. There's many scenes when no one's talking,
they're just kind of in the situation, and all you
really hear is that little like click click click of
like you know they've silenced the alarm, but it's still going,
(36:53):
which means there's still a problem. Did that you know,
did you pause in that moment at all, John, or
that kind of just get washed over with all the
other things that are going on when it took a
moment to breathe. No.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
I actually I like you calling the sound design out
because the sound design and specific is I considered it
strong because the sound environment. You know, Tristan just praised
you know, Walter Merch, you don't notice him. There's nothing
that jumped out at me because to my ear, this
(37:27):
all sounded right. This sounded like it should sound inside
the sub while everybody's going around, and when I was
outside the sub, it sounded right as well. There wasn't
an overproduced quality to the sound design. It was simply there.
That ticking in the back about the radiation alarm, I
(37:48):
thought was one of the nicest touches actually, because it's
like that thing where sometimes you'll hear a song or
something else where, if you really listen to it, you
realize there's like a little heart going right, and once
that radiation alarm ticking comes into play's suddenly like oh
like it's tick tick. It reminds you of a clock
(38:11):
the countdown has started. How much time do I have left?
And it's just subtly enough in the background, and they
I think they they really did well with that.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, every every tick is like I'm pumping more radiation
into the sub, Like the problem is not solved. It's
it's you know, mediated for a moment, but it is
still ill there. I mean I think of that. I
think of yeah, like you said, the sound of the
as they're diving or surfacing and you hear the crunch
(38:42):
of the metal as it's kind of reworking itself, or
the surfacing scene, which is fairly early on in the movie.
But when they go down and then they just jet
and go straight into the ice, like, that's a great sequence,
Like I have never seen that a sub do that
in a movie before, with the ice impact. Usually it's
(39:04):
just very slow, like hey, look we're gonna raise just
the tower out, that's all we brought with us to
our filming location. This was more like we're gonna drive
straight into the ice flow. And it was amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, it's really kind of tough because I think that
this gets back to something that Bigelow what we've noticed,
or at least what I've noticed while we've been looking
at her films is that from a technical aspect, it
is always five stars.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Across the board.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
As a technical artist, she is one of the best
out there in my opinion. The camera work that and
it's not even something where she ever gets credit for
any innovation or anything like that. But she takes the
technology that exists and she makes it really strong, and
she gets a crew around her that is going to
(40:03):
help put together something that's really strong from a technical perspective.
The downside is I think that it's almost similar, although
their styles are wildly different to where it can sometimes
go wrong with like a Zack Snyder movie, where the
technical part is there, the emotional part is what winds
(40:26):
up being lost in the shuffle, if that makes sense.
Where it's like, I feel like there should be more
emotional punch to this, But intellectually, I'm satisfied with the
way everything comes together and is constructed. So from an
intellectual perspective, I can look at it, I can say
that is a really well crafted film, but my heart
(40:50):
says eh. And it's tough because I think for film
to really land for a person, it has to have
that heart moment as much as anything technical. You'll forgive
a lot of technical problems if it really connects with
you on an emotional level. I think that's sort of
where this this struggles. And I think this is something
that we've seen happen with Big a Low throughout all
(41:13):
of her movies.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
John, I think I'm with you on that, where like,
this movie is really technically accurate. It has some great sets,
great cinematography, editing, even the music, Like I enjoyed the music,
and normally sometimes that's an afterthought or it's generic, Like
I thought this was actually had a lot of presence,
but there's there's a lot wrong with it. Like, I
(41:35):
feel like we were very gracious towards this movie for
a very big portion of the episode because we wanted
to like it, or at least I wanted to like it.
And I've seen this before. I was kind of like eh,
And then in preparation for this podcast, when I watched
it again, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna give it
a fair shake. And you know, it's been almost twenty
years since I've seen it, you know, like let's you know,
like let me get let me give it another shot,
(41:56):
but at the same time, I was just kind of like, eh,
you know, like the first act is so slow, it
takes so long to get into it, and the bickering
between Nisen and Ford is so repetitive, like you don't
feel like you have any build. It's just like it
almost feels episodic this movie, where it's just like and
(42:19):
then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens,
and it's hard to get connected with everyone because of
those things, and it's you know, like I get it.
The duty to the state versus duty to one's men
is very powerful, but sometimes I feel like it's over
articulated in the dialogue and it's a little simplistic with
(42:45):
how how complex real life can be in my opinion,
and I just I don't know. I feel like we
got a lot of I simultaneously appreciated that we were
we stayed on the boat, but at the same time
we had some sort of it felt like a visual monotony,
and I just could not connect with this movie. I
(43:06):
wanted to like it. I wanted to like this movie
so bad because it has so many people that I
like in it, and it's a great story based on
real events, which in itself makes it more compelling, but
it just does not reach that upper echelon.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I think the fact that, like you said, the story
never leaves the boat. You don't get any third presence,
sumniscient or anything. It's all their point of view. And
that's something where again, you know, it's hard to not
compare it to Red October, but at least but Red
October is we're seeing people on land, we're seeing government officials,
(43:48):
we're seeing other people, and I guess we do get
a tiny bit of that, you know, maybe a one percent,
but yeah, you need that to continue to build the world.
But I could also see going in that direction of no,
we're gonna tell the POV, we're gonna tell the tin
Can and that. So it's not a bad choice, it's
(44:13):
just it makes it harder to connect to the crew,
which I think we've all agreed on that.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah, And just to add on to what you're saying, Darren,
I think that more and maybe this is the you know,
lap Dog of the West speaking from my heart here.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
But American big dog.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Yes, but more of the thing, because there is there
are bits of it where like they encounters like, they
didn't give us radiation suits, they gave us chemical suits.
This is the wrong thing, so I'm trying to fight
radiation poisoning with aspirin. Like that was one of the
things that really contributed to the fall of the Soviets,
was like this bureaucratic nightmare of a life where it
(44:57):
was just like, they gave me the wrong thing. Old
was incorrect, this equipment is wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
It would have been like you gave me a fifty
volt piece of equipment that's supposed to handle seventy volts,
you know, something like that.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
It would have been nice to see more emotional reaction
to that, even if it was to give somebody the
opportunity to be like, shut up, the political officers go
to hear don't say things like that, so that we
could at least get the sense of what the movie establishes.
But I don't ever think lands the connective emotional punch
(45:31):
of this boat is a miracle that had even sailed
because of all of the compromises in construction and outfitting
that happened, which was simply a byproduct of the way
that that place ran. It was like, oh my goodness,
like this should have failed. This should have been a
(45:52):
disaster that potentially set off World War III. We're lucky
as Ella didn't. I didn't have that relief moment to
be like, oh geez, you know, like with the crew
complaining the whole time about like, ah, what, where's supposed
to be a superpower? Why can't I get a decent cracker?
You know, like that sort of vibe to the crew.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
It would be paid for by the lowest bidder.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Yeah, yeah, basically and by people who can't you know,
and determined by people who can't get fired because they
have party connections and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I mean, you know, I mean they are right, you know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well, as we slide into our reviews, Tristan, I want
you to give your thoughts on length and pacing and
run time. That's often something we like to talk about,
and you'd already kind of talked a little about the
first act kind of dragging. I mean overall I felt
(46:48):
that this movie it it had a weird act structor,
Like it did not feel like one two three, It
felt like one no three. You know, So how did
that play out to you? And then go into your rating?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yeah, Like, as I mentioned, the first act really drags,
where you're kind of feeling like, Okay, when is the
movie gonna start? And like you said, it almost felt
like it had a five act structure, but not in
a well defined way where when you don't do a
five act structure properly, it feels like the way that
(47:23):
you just described it, Okay, a weird first act, a
super long second act, and then all of a sudden
hurry up and wait third act with a with a
super koda. Yeah that's what I was gonna say, in
a super weird coda. I was gonna say epilogue. But yes,
like it was just like, oh, okay, we didn't have
to end the movie here, Like we could have ended
(47:46):
the movie with Harrison Ford stripping on the boat and
then just some title cards. I think that would have
been fine. Like I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but yeah,
the the it was like what two hours and nineteen minutes,
but it was actually much shorter than that if you
take away the credits, and so I didn't really feel
like it was too long. It just was structured oddly,
(48:10):
and like I said, it felt like it was episodic
within itself, which is not a good thing to feel
when watching a movie. And so to me because of
all the thing with the structure, with the lack of
emotional connection with a solemnity, and this this visual dourness.
(48:30):
I wanted to like this movie, I really did, but
I'm going to give it a two and a half stars.
This movie's not bad. It's not good. It's just eh h.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah that's the sound I hear.
Speaker 4 (48:45):
Eh, yeah, I could. I I'm vibing with everything you're saying, Tristan,
I really am. I think I'm a little more forgiving
because I think that I still am in awe of
how well the camera moves inside such a tight space.
(49:06):
It really is something that amazed me while I was
watching it, where I think that of all of the
submarine movies that I've watched, this is the first one
since dust Bolt where I felt the claustrophobia where I
really felt like I was trapped in a space that
I didn't want to be in and made me question
(49:30):
why in the hell anybody would do this to themselves.
Relatives in the Navy, some of them did submarine duty,
and I'm like, I don't know how you don't go
crazy in a place like that. I can't even like
an airplane is too cramped for me. Would I would
have lost my mind inside a submarine, like I couldn't
have done it. And I really applaud that camera work.
(49:55):
I think the sound design is, you know, to what
Darren was talking about earlier, Like I thought the sound
as I was very good. A lot of technical high
marks for this, and so I think I wind up
grading it a little generously because will I ever come
back to K nineteen. I don't think so, but I
(50:17):
could see a situation wherein I'm sort of, you know,
on the couch one night, I'm having trouble sleeping, and
I'm like and I'm like just looking through the services
and it's like, oh, K nineteen's eh, okay, sure I'll
turn that on. Just because I enjoy the technical aspects
of it. I think that that stuff flows pretty well.
So I'm going to give it a three. It's sort
(50:39):
of a generous three. I could have gone too, because
again I have no emotional connection. I think the coda
at the end is weird, almost like it's just an
excuse to get Harrison Ford an old person makeup. And
you know, although I think Harrison Ford looks great in
(50:59):
a goatee, and I think he should try to look
more often. But yeah, so that's a generous three for me.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, to that point, I think a Liam Neeson looks
with nineties old man glasses looks great in that, Like
they sold those looks really well in that end shot
in the coda. Yeah. No, I agree with all we've
said the technical aspect. I liked what you were leaning
(51:28):
into John about like when would I watch this again?
And I feel like I would put it in rotation
if I was on a submarine kick, if I was like, oh,
I want to watch a bunch of submarine movies, Like, yeah,
I would put it on the list. I would watch it.
You know. It wasn't engaging enough, it was interesting enough
on its submarineness. You know, I wouldn't watch it going
(51:51):
I really want to watch a movie where I connect
with the characters. No, that's not its strength, but for
shooting in a oh, it definitely does. So I'm giving
it a three as well. I know we're going to
keep going up, but I feel like I'm topped out
a three so far for Catherine Pigelow for the last
(52:11):
couple of films. But yeah, it's as we talk about
her in the greater context. You know, she's nailing the technical,
she's nailing you know, the look, and it's just getting
that right combo of actor and directing and story and
caring that I think we're probably gonna get next week,
(52:34):
as this little thing called the Academy seemed to really
really enjoy it. But yeah, as we move past CA.
Nineteen The Widow Maker, next week we're going to be
talking about two thousand and eight's The hurt Locker.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Here on Houselights, Join the Revolution, Join the Net Party,
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back to House Lights, our director discussion show here
on the Nerd Party Network. This week, we're continuing to
look at the works of Catherine Bigelow with her only
PG thirteen film two thousand and two's K nineteen, The
Widow Maker, telling the tale of the nineteen sixty one
Soviet submarine reactor failure and the heroic efforts of the crew.
(00:42):
Star Wars heroes Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson lead this
gripping man versus radiation story Beneath the Waves. I'm your
host this evening, Darren New doctor Moser, and I'm joined
again by my friends Tristan ice Cap Riddell and Pipe
Fitting Safety Inspector number three John Mills.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Wait, am I am? I just a block of ice?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
No, that's your nickname, your ice Cap. You're like you
got off the ship and you're in when we're about
to take the photo the last good day of our lives.
You've got a cool nickname. Okay, John, we blame for everything.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I'm sorry, I am the reason that everything went wrong,
which honestly that pretty much tracks with my life and
this podcast, so you know, fitting choice.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
If we ever cover a Paul thirteen. Just know where
you're going to rank.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Okay, Oh, I know, I'm fully aware, I get that,
I get.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I'm actually I know this is completely off topic, but
I'm kind of surprised we haven't done Howard. We haven't
done House of Howard Ron House. There's plenty of them,
that's true. That's another' here no there, Darren, please no, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
But hey, that's how things end up on the list.
And you too can contact us at the nerd party
dot com if you want to let us know what
you think we should record. Maybe we'll listen, maybe we won't,
but it usually the good ideas do end up eventually
down the list. Don't ask how long the list is, listeners,
(02:15):
because it's a it's fairly long. I think we're booked
through mid January right now. But here, there, here, no there, John,
this is your first time going beneath the waves with
K nineteen The Widow Maker. You were not caught up
with apparently the early two thousands submarine vibe that was
(02:36):
going on, because there were quite a few films. We're
gonna just look from eighty nine to two thousand and four.
I have at least a dozen of these. We Hunt
for Red October and ninety, Crimson Tide in ninety five,
down Periscope in ninety six. I'm gonna kind of count
Sphere in ninety eight U five seven to one, which
(02:58):
I think was a lot of people will sometimes confuse
with this one in two thousand and below in two
thousand and two, same year as Widow Maker. And then
maybe we could talk about League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or
The Life Aquatic with Steve's issue. Yeah later, nice choice,
but there so there's a we love our submarines, But
this one again we're looking at a semi historical take
(03:23):
on an actual event that occurred, it said in the sixties,
where it was a little weird for me looking at
the modernness, like I'm so used to like diesel subs
and World War two, this that this was a little
more modern than I was expecting. But John, did you
know anything about this? Did you? Except for the stars
(03:43):
or maybe the poster or this one just passed you by.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Well, you mentioned Hunt for October and Crimson Tide, and
I got to be honest with you that when you're
the old man and you saw both of those in
the movie theater, other submarine movies surface from time to time,
and you're like, that's cute. You stay over there. I've
already seen two of the greatest submarine movies that could
ever be made. You got to really, really, really convince
(04:10):
me to go to the theater and then, I'll be honest.
It was a terrible marketing push. I mean, Number one
is coming out in the summer. Bad choice Number two.
Harrison Ford plays a Russian sub captain in the Cold War.
I'm like, that's a whole bunch of words that just
don't make any sense to me. And the poster was, look,
(04:31):
the poster sucks. The poster is Harrison Ford scowling at me,
looking like he's being a grumpy old man. He's like,
you better not come into theater and see my movie.
I'm like, all right, fine, I won't come see it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
No joke. I was going to start playing. I have
multiple monitors. As I was working, and I had I
was during my lunch, I had K nineteen up, and
I had the menu up, and I was just like, oh,
I get I gotta get to this to this email
real quick, and I keep out of the corner of
my eye. Harrison Ford was just looking at me disapprovingly, like, Judge,
(05:03):
you really need to use that semi colon.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I literally turned it off because I couldn't handle it.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Well, now you know how I felt they were trying
to convince me to go see the movie. No, so yeah,
and I knew, like I think I saw something that
I don't remember if it's on the post or not,
where it's like inspired by true events. And I was like,
all right, that's fine, sure, and it just wasn't enough
to get me in the theater honestly, I mean, but
I mean, seriously, I think releasing this in July of
(05:35):
two thousand and two is basically like release calendar suicide,
because it's like, you know, May of two thousand and two,
there was a little Star Wars movie that came out
that you know, wasn't still all the hotness in July,
But wasn't this the same summer as like like Men
in Black two or something like that, And uh.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, it was a decent summer for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Why on earth would you take a movie like this
and throw it up against competition like that.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That's not I don't understand fall movie.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
This is an award season movie.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I was like, this is a prestige film. Yeah, you know,
why would you put it in the summer?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, this is like you're gonna see a movie with
your dad after Thanksgiving? And this is what you guys
go see.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like that spot that's all they should They should have
on the on the post, on the poster.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The movie you'll see if you're gonna see what movie
with your dad after Thanksgiving? C K nineteen, The Widow Makers.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I'm gonna now two dollars off your ticket if you
bring in a selfie of you and your dad eating
turkey before you go in there, you go.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
You won't have an appetite after the film, So watch
it after Thanksgiving?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Oh my god. Okay, So I work. I work in
my basement, like I work from work from home, like
three days out of the week. And so but you know,
like I'm surrounded by all my kids crap, you know,
and all their toys and everything like that, and so
I normally keep the basement door open, but when it's shut,
it means don't come down. Dad's watching watching something spooky.
(07:09):
And so I was. I told my wife, I was like, hey,
I'm gonna go watch something a little spooky. So just
let the kids know, and she's like, oh, is it
fun spooky? I was like, no, it's Russian young men
dying from radiation poisoning. And she's like, so not fun spooky.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Apparently when researching for this film, like they
toned it way down, Apparently, like they looked up, you know,
radiation exposure and what it does to you, and they
made it much more sanitized than what actually probably would
have happened. Like, it's really bad.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Have either of you Seennobyl on HBO.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I've seen lots of clips of Chernobyl.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I've watched it one hundred percent, Yet you're not the
same after you watch that series.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
That series they shy away from it, like they did
not lessened the effects, especially with one individual in particular.
And for those of you who've watched, you know what
I'm talking about, and it's it's oh my god, it's
it's just gruesome. It's just radiation.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Terrible way to go.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, one has to be one of the worst ways
to go.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Well, I mean considering that it's basically your entire body
just starts decomposing while you're walking around in it, that's
that's a pretty tough road to hoe.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I mean, and the psychological effect of knowing, like, because
I went into that room, I'm going to die, like
but you not instantly, but like it's it's the unseenness
of radiation. It's like just diabolical and how it's yeah,
it's gonna get you, but it's not like a traditional attack.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Is yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it. It's I don't
know that you could show it any more graphically in
this movie without getting like an R rating bordering on
an NC seventeen like this is. And I think that's
the unfortunate thing is they are towing that line, and
(09:11):
I think as a result, it does work to the
detriment of the movie a little bit because of the
fact that when they come out and you see them,
you understand, you know, contextually, I understand why Peter Sarsgar's
character Richenko freaks out and won't go in. It's a
very relatable moment. It's like you don't judge that character.
(09:34):
You're like, yeah, okay, I get why you're freaking out here.
But I think that if they had gone a little
more hardcore with what it looked like, I think it
would have made them even more sympathetic in that moment.
And so I'm not like arguing that like stuff should
have been falling off of them or anything. I just
think it could have gone a little bit harder in
(09:56):
that scene.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, like instead of my coming out and vomiting, you know,
and heap freaking out, it's like, oh, you see the
horror on his face, because there's little horror on their faces. Yeah,
I get that. Yeah, I get that completely. And I'm
really glad that both of you got that. Not that
I thought anything different, but I'm really glad that both
of you guys didn't put him in a box. Because
(10:21):
we all, you know, all of us want to think
that we're the hero of our own story, that we
would rise up and do what's right and do what's
best for us and everyone else and everything like that.
But in that moment, you have no idea what you
would do until you're in that moment.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Oh absolutely. And I think that it's also great that,
whether that's actually part of the true account or not,
I think it's very important to have that character have
that reaction because that shows how heroic these guys were
being in what they were doing. But also there's a
huge payoff for him at the end. Because he does
(10:59):
go in and he knows full well what's about to
happen to him, and it's just it's it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, it's interesting. How for you know Verchenko, it's I'm
not gonna say it's his story, but he's definitely a
major player. Like I would say he's number three as
far as story focus goes, and the choices he makes,
and and like you said, having that setup really enhances
(11:27):
the payoff later when he makes the choice. He's in
there for eighteen like he's in there a long time
basically like to get it done, and we know that
it's you know, he when they're listing that so many died,
I know that he's one of them. Like I don't
even doubt, Like it's not like, oh maybe he lived,
Just no, I know that's not even a plausible solution.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
The only thing that undercut that moment so hard for
me was when Harrison Ford's character when they when like
the timbers are starts going down and like the water
starts going through and everything like that, and Harrison Ford
goes he made himself a hero.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe that delivery wasn't the best
the Lion the delivery of it.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
It was just it's it sucked all the air out
of the room and it's just like I said, it's
just undercut it.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
For me, Ford is the best in this when he
is Kurt and saying very little like and just presence like,
not that he doesn't say anything, because he says a
lot really well in this, but it's definitely a less
is more and you know, we get Radjenko, we get
the soldier who jumps off the boat and is like,
(12:47):
I'm not going back in, you know, And again I
think it was important to show it's not like everybody
fell apart, but there's just enough resistance that you're like, yeah,
they're all having to make that decision. Or even the
end where where the captain asks them and they all
I mean, for me, that was kind of an emotional
(13:08):
part when they're all ticking through the compartments and they're
all saying, you know, we're going to do our duty
and it and it mirrors again, you know, we haven't
talked about directing yet, but I love how it mirrors
the opening sequence of that when they're getting ready to
go down for the first time, as they're getting underway
and it's the exact same sequence of the compartments reporting in,
(13:31):
but there's so much more weight. Yeah, because of what
we've been through.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, I I I. The tough thing for me is
that there were certain moments Traysia. I'm glad you called
out Ford's line there. He made himself a hero. I
think that there is a and this this is gonna
sound weird, but I think like this sort of is
Bigelow's strength and her weakness as a director. It's a
(13:58):
very fine line for her to walk where what this
movie is lacking is that ability to connect with me
so that I'm I'm actually like viscerally rooting for somebody
on the crew where I'm rooting for them in a
very personal sense. If you go to hunt For, if
(14:20):
you go to hunt For at October, it's not even
Sean Connery for me, it's not even really Jack Ryan.
It's Sam Neil's character, the guy that just wants to
go to Montana, that guy and like You're like, you're
you're really emotionally invested in that guy because he's he's
the innocent soul. He's like, uh, I just I just
want to have a good life, man, right. Crimson Tide
(14:41):
Denzel Washington. Beginning to finish, You're like, he's awesome. I
love him as my commander. He's a great dude. I'm
with him the whole way, so that when the conflict
happens at the end, there's not even a question. There's
not a chance I'm on Gene Hackman's side. Even before
that conversation that Tarantino wrote, I'm completely with Denzel from
(15:02):
beginning to finish. There's no character like that that it
latch onto here. I don't know if you guys felt
the same way. The closest I came was Liam Neeson's character.
I think he's supposed to be the most sympathetic character
of the hero characters that you see, where it's like,
you know, you can understand what he's going through the best.
But even that gets undercut because true to life or not.
(15:25):
When he's like, hey, good job with the mutiny, guys,
Now give me the gun and the key. All right,
you guys are under arrest, and then at the end
he even like he's like an ass to the guy
who was like just doing what he thought was right.
I was like, uh, but you all still went for
the like I'm very confused by the ending, I'm like,
I don't know what I'm supposed to feel about these
guys at the end.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, when Liam Neeson, you know, I feel like for
his character, I just made the connection in my mind.
He's kind of like Deckerd in Star Trek the motion picture,
where he's the captain, he has the most nulled and
then you know, Comrade Kirk comes in and just says, Nope,
(16:06):
you know, you're sorry. You have to stay on and
run the ship for me.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
But I'm the captain now, which is even funnier.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Picturing Kirk and like that Chay Gavar T shirt with
their beret, just picturing William Shanner in that.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
But the thing that makes that even funnier for me, Darren,
is that the whole relationship of Kirk and Deckerd is
modeled after a previous Robert Wise movie Run. I think
it's Run Silent, Run Deep, where the same sort of
command structure upheaval happens where the senior guy comes in
and takes the captaincy from a guy. So it's that's
a funny thread to follow all the way through.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I did find that relationship dynamic really interesting because they
went out of their way to show that Nissan took
it like a champ, like he took it as a
true professional, where it was no, this is this is
the job. I'm not losing my rank. I'm just you know,
losing my position. I'm the exo. I'm still on this boat.
I'm still with my guys. It's totally cool. If that's
(17:09):
what the Motherland wants, that's what they're going to get.
But he still felt a responsibility to the ship and
the crew in a way like a captain would. But
at the same time, they didn't show him as a saint.
It wasn't clear that like, oh, Ford is the big
bad because he represents you know, the Soviet and government,
and you know, Nissan is just the guy. He's the
(17:29):
man's man, he's the men of the people. Nothing like that.
It was you know, I felt like they did a
really nice job of showing Ford as like, this is
not the men's fault, this is your fault. This is
the officer's fault for not setting clear expectations for the men.
And also it showed Nissan being way too chummy with
(17:52):
his men and way too laid back, and the fact
that he was trying to defend a man who was
drunk on the job on a sub It goes back
and forth where there is a lot of gray area
where there is no clear antagonist and clear protagonist, and
I felt like normally I would be like, Okay, well
(18:14):
is this protagonist confusion? But it also felt applicable and
where it wasn't like a poorly written novel where you're like, oh,
this is the bad guy, clearly, this is the guy
who's it's gonna screw everybody over in the end.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I mean to speak to that point though, Like what
I never got was a scene where I felt like
Ford had some sort of humanizing moment, real humanizing moment
with Nissan where he's like, just you know, I mean
to go back to Star Trek the motion picture. At
least we got that scene with Kirk was like stop
fighting me, deckerd you know, like that sort of thing.
(18:50):
Like I needed a scene like that to really establish
the dynamic between the two of them, and I don't
think that I got it here.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean I will slightly disagree. I think we didn't
get a one for one of that. But when he
backs forward after the mutiny, I think that is the
essence of that where it is really clearly drawing. It's
later in the game, but it really clear is drawing
the relationship between the two.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It's I am, I am so late in the game.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah it is too late, but yeah, I mean what
you're daring.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
You're not wrong.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Maybe an earlier scene, not with that much weight behind it,
but where he demonstrably backs the captain and then somebody's like, dude,
the hell, like why are you backing this guy? And
he's like because he's the captain and like walks off
or something like you know, like I a stronger just
one stronger scene would have given me a little bit
(19:49):
more to to hold on to.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I love that Joss Ackland, the uh the one of
the big wig Russian guys with that white hair, Yes, sir, Yes,
I love that. He is also in Right October. Yes, and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I really same character.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Basically, and I half expected like it to end with
with somebody coming to him and saying you lost another submarine.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, yeah, he's got the voice like he is. Just
if he plays all the Russian hierarchy in every movie,
I wouldn't even care. I would just be like, this
is the Josh Ackland universe. Of running the Fatherland.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
You know, it's like that one guy who always plays
the Chicago cop.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly, but you know also.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Johnson of Russian leadership.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, it's not even going down that rabbit hole. And
that's a crazy one. Yeah yeah, No, I mean, Ackland
is great in in what little he's given to do.
But I mean, am I, you know, am I the
only one, like I've really had a hard time connecting
with the movie, Like I thought there was so much
like that. One of the things that that I thought
(21:12):
of while I was watching it, this is my first time,
was what we were talking about last week with Strange Days,
where we were talking about the camera being in super
tight spaces and it I will say that this, okay,
the Hunt for in October and Crimson Tide, those sets
are very dramatic, dramatically lit, very you know, very film submarines.
(21:35):
This felt like I was actually on a submarine and
the tight spaces. I found the filming to be amazing
in this because I felt cramped when they were. I
felt like I was trying to squeeze through corridors and
getting through with like a giant you know camera and
you know roll speed you know, like and running through
and everything that had to be just hell in the production.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, I read in research that apparently they developed a
rail system that went down the ceiling and that is
what the camera was hooked on, and then they painted
it out so it blended in and that's how they
because yeah, they it was the size. It wasn't like, oh,
we just swing out this you know this wall and
it's like no, no, we are in a tin can.
(22:21):
It was obviously a set, but it was an actual,
you know, submarine set, and yeah, you feel that claustrophobia.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
You know me.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I think we're all kind of on the same page
as far as when there are certain locations you need
to know where you are. That's kind of important. And
in this one, while I never had a full mental
picture of the sub I could still understand of like, oh,
there's the command room, there's the you know, torpedo room.
(22:52):
Like I knew where, I know what room I was
in at any given time. I just maybe didn't know
what the next room connecting is was.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yes, all right, So okay, Darren, I know you're gonna
laugh at me, but you mentioned diagram No, I like, okay,
So this This movie was shot by Jeff Cronenworth, who
is a fantastic DP. You know, he's known for Fight Club,
(23:21):
Social Network. You know, this guy knows what he's doing
and this this John, like you said, this movie is
really well shot. But Darren, when you were talking about
like geography, like knowing where you are and everything like that, No,
Lie Down Periscope had some of the best geography when
it came to a submarine, like you knew exactly where
(23:42):
you were and where it was placed in the submarine.
And for those of you who were who say like, oh, well,
you know, like it's a you know, it's a modern
movie shot at modern times, Like Nope, they were on
a World War two sub Okay, so it was even
smaller than the K nineteen. But yeah, and I just
needed to throw that out there because it's a movie.
(24:03):
But it's it's shut.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You got the Typhoon class in uh in Crimson or no,
in Hunter ad October, which is like the giant Cadillac
of subs. You know, it's so they're.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Gonna be stationed on a sub you want to be
on the Typhoon Class. I mean, let's be honest. Plenty
of breathing road.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I was thinking no.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
So we talked about the look. We talked about, yeah,
the the kind of rooting for a group rather than
an individual kind of vibe of this movie. Like, except
for a few standouts, it's really the crew is how
we kind of view it, at least how how I.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Rooting for the group instead of the individual. What kind
of red comie talk is that.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
He got into the spirit of the I mean, obviously movie, yes,
it's Soviets Russia movie watches you.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
When? Okay, when when they were watching that film of
like the worst parts of America, and then he said
he's like, he's like, don't He's like, don't let American
propaganda fool you, you know, with everybody you know, like
having their own car, wearing nice clothes and individualism. And
then like part of me, like a real big part
of me as an American, kind of popped perked up,
(25:23):
and I was like, individualism, Yeah, rock on.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
That's pretty great. I think it's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Like I started playing an electric guitar in my head
while a bald eagle was screaming over my head.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I was like, hey, yeah, hey, hey, hey, hey, you know,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
We'll get the Team America World Police in here and
they'll set it all straight.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
And yeah, they'll straight they'll straighten everything out. Now, I
think that I thought it was it was very smart
to include that scene, though because of the fact that
we don't typically get to see how like that. I
don't know that everybody understands the historical perspective of the
idea of the political officer. Yes, he was there on
(26:05):
Hunt For in October as the secret antagonist to stretch
out Act three and stuff like that, but like it
really was a way of life. You had a guy
who went around that was like, oh, no, this is
what you believe, just to remind you. And if you
don't believe that, then I'm gonna report you, you know,
like that the school leg right exactly. And it's I
(26:29):
think it's very good that this movie included it, so,
you know, tip of the hat to the script and
to keeping it in you know, the production, to really
underline how much of a part of life.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
It was for them. Also, I really appreciated what Bigelow
was doing with this because at no point did you
feel like, oh, you know, like so many times in
war movies, even though this wasn't during a time of war.
You know, it was a Cold War, but it was
you have the goodies and the baddies. And even when
you watching something like dust Boot, you know like you're
(27:03):
you're watching it and you're like, Okay, these are clearly
the bad guys. I mean, yeah, these are people conscripted
and they may not believe what they're believing, but they're
still in the bad They're still on the bad side.
You know, like with with this, with this movie and
the way that Bigelow is betraying the crew the ship
and their mission and their purpose. There was no declaration
of good versus evil. It was we're here to protect
(27:27):
the Soviet Union. We're here to show them that we
can advance, we can shoot dismissial and we can be there,
and it's just to show them and it's just like
we're showing a show of strength and this is what
we believe. It was just I'm having a hard time
articulating it, but it was just it was a great
way to show the other side of the fence, or
(27:50):
actually say curtain where it was. It was an interesting
peak behind the curtain, and it was it was not
like oh well there, you know, like it's a bad
cause led by bad people, with bad people on the boat.
It was just here's the other side that you don't
normally see, not glorifying it, not vilifying it. I thought
(28:11):
that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
So you think it would be fair to say there
are heroes on both sides, evil as everywhere. Would you
think that's a fair couple of lines to throw out there?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Maybe, no, I'm not going to say that. You're not
going to say that. I'm not going to say that
you agree. I would agree with a great philosopher who
put that out there, But you know, hey, that's just me. Well,
and the accent is that No, you know what, I'm
glad you brought I'm glad Tristan brought this up. The
accents not really because it they didn't lean into it
(28:41):
really hard. They gave like hint of accent, but so like,
it wasn't egregious, It wasn't Uh, it wasn't Leonardo DiCaprio
attempting an Irish accent in Gangs of New York.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Or even worse, Cameron Diaz attempting an Irish accent in case.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
The thing is, I don't consider that attempting an Irish accent,
because I don't know what she was attempting at Gangs
of New York. Honestly, it's first I've heard somebody actually
call it an Irish accent. So okay, then no, the
little hint of accent was enough for me. I mean,
I'm still of the camp where it's like they don't
(29:24):
they're speaking Russian to each other, none of them have
an accent.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Okay, okay, okay, I've for decades, I've gone back and
forth on this where that is a very solid argument.
That is a very solid argument where you're like, okay, yeah,
I mean, if you're on a Russian boat or Soviet boat,
they're going to be speaking Russian to each other. They're
not going to be speaking English with a Russian accent.
We get it. But at the same time, my brain
(29:52):
needs some sort of otherness, needs some sort of foreign
entity to tell me that this is a different place,
because okay, so I felt like it worked in Valkyrie
because they didn't attempt any accents there, but they did
the Red October thing where like, you know, Tom Cruise
(30:13):
is like writing in his journal or writing a letter
and he's speaking Russian and as he's writing it turns
into English and you hear him narrating his own voice,
and it turns into English, and then everybody's just like
either British or American or whatever, it doesn't matter, it
doesn't matter they're German. But then there was another submarine movie.
I can't remember which one, but it had David ducoveny
and Ed Harris and they're Russian and they didn't have
(30:36):
any accents whatsoever. It was just Ed Harris being Ed
Harris and David Coveney being David d' coveney, and it
felt freaking wrong.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I love both of those actors that you named, but
I would say it's because their vocal range is such
that it's impossible to hear anything but sort of an
American region to how they're speaking, if that makes sense.
They have very uniquely American speech.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
That's true. Dakuny and Harris are very uniquely American, it's true.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Whereas like Harrison Ford has a more neutral and Liam
Neeson you know, is Irish like so it's like it's,
you know, one of those things.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Now.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I think the handling of the dialect was enough
that I didn't even think about it of like, oh yeah,
that's right. They're all speaking in Russian. It's just I
think they leaned into the it's a movie, and understandability
is king if your audience cannot understand what you're saying,
(31:43):
you know, and that's the route you know that she went,
which isn't bad, it's just you know, not one of
the pillars of the of the film. But yeah, I
liked what you were talking about, Tristan as far as
the plot, where it is rare for a war movie,
a submarine war movie, to be like, this is a
(32:06):
disaster movie. It's them versus the situation, Like the Americans
are barely in it, and like there's no there's not
a single torpedo being fired in this whole movie. The torpedo,
I mean technically it rolls over a guy inside the
you know, the.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Submarine ruins the dude's hand.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Hell yeah, yeah, But I like, yeah, like you said,
it's and we've all heard this before and other stories
of no one sees themselves as a villain, you know,
the one writes themselves in the story as that and
and this is just the other side of the curtain.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But but you know, as we're slowly rounding towards ratings.
You know, I felt like we've given this film a
pretty decent once over, you know, as far as story
and characters. But John, you look like so you have
something on your mind.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
Well, we haven't talked about the editing yet, which is
something we have to talk about. Because a legendary editor
worked on this film, Walter freaking Merch worked on this film.
I gotta ask, did this seem like it was legendary editing?
(33:25):
I mean, like, you know, I didn't realize it was
Walter Merch until I revisited the credits and stuff like that,
and I was like, really, Walter Merch. Now. The thing is, like,
I thought the way things were put together was was
well paced. I thought everything worked together, you know, pretty
well in both a micro and a macro. But like,
(33:47):
is it unfair to say that, Wow, Walter Merch worked
on this, But I don't feel like this was a
you know, a tremendous editing work, if that makes sense,
Like are my expectations?
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Why That's why Walter Merch is one of the best
ever is because you didn't have a feeling one way
or the other. True, Like you didn't think, oh, this
is really poor editing, or like oh man, the editing
in that was amazing. Like if you were watching something
like that by Tony Scott or Fincher or something, don't
(34:19):
want to notice it. Merch is the king of not
being noticed. He is a silent hunter. He is the
one that you bring in when you want a well
crafted story and something that is well edited that does
not insist upon itself. It is something that is just
He's so streamlined. He knows exactly how to trick your
(34:41):
brain and trick your eyes into not seeing what you saw.
That's why this was fair to Merch.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Very very fair. I mean, because the thing is, like
I was saying, like when you're moving through the sub
when you have the scenes cutting back and forth, it
is all really strong stuff, but it is I like
the way you put it. He's silent about it. There's
nothing here to draw attention to the edit, like you said,
as opposed to like a Tony Scott movie where it's
(35:12):
like you know that the jet fighters are flying around
in top gun and it's like what wait what what's cool?
This looks awesome? But wait what this is? This is
a very I can tell everything that's going on, and
I understand everything that's going on. I actually think there
were a couple of I applauded this for the fact that,
(35:34):
I mean, you know, especially the era this comes out
underwater CG is the most forgiving CG that you can make.
But I really enjoyed the fact that they did the
thing where they were inside and they would keep going
up and your brain is like, okay, well you have
to stop because that's the ceiling. But then it kept
going and you went through the shell of the sub
(35:56):
to show the difference between the outer hull and the
inner hall, and then go up and go out into
the water after that to see everything larger. I thought
that was a great choice.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Now, when we talk about films, we rarely talk about
sound design. I mean, it is a piece of the
film puzzle. But I found myself in this one specifically,
there was one sound in particular that really stood out
to me, and I don't know if it was the
(36:31):
same for you guys, but the flickering of the radiation
alarm light bulb. There's many scenes when no one's talking,
they're just kind of in the situation, and all you
really hear is that little like click click click of
like you know they've silenced the alarm, but it's still going,
(36:53):
which means there's still a problem. Did that you know,
did you pause in that moment at all, John, or
that kind of just get washed over with all the
other things that are going on when it took a
moment to breathe. No.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
I actually I like you calling the sound design out
because the sound design and specific is I considered it
strong because the sound environment. You know, Tristan just praised
you know, Walter Merch, you don't notice him. There's nothing
that jumped out at me because to my ear, this
(37:27):
all sounded right. This sounded like it should sound inside
the sub while everybody's going around, and when I was
outside the sub, it sounded right as well. There wasn't
an overproduced quality to the sound design. It was simply there.
That ticking in the back about the radiation alarm, I
(37:48):
thought was one of the nicest touches actually, because it's
like that thing where sometimes you'll hear a song or
something else where, if you really listen to it, you
realize there's like a little heart going right, and once
that radiation alarm ticking comes into play's suddenly like oh
like it's tick tick. It reminds you of a clock
(38:11):
the countdown has started. How much time do I have left?
And it's just subtly enough in the background, and they
I think they they really did well with that.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, every every tick is like I'm pumping more radiation
into the sub, Like the problem is not solved. It's
it's you know, mediated for a moment, but it is
still ill there. I mean I think of that. I
think of yeah, like you said, the sound of the
as they're diving or surfacing and you hear the crunch
(38:42):
of the metal as it's kind of reworking itself, or
the surfacing scene, which is fairly early on in the movie.
But when they go down and then they just jet
and go straight into the ice, like, that's a great sequence,
Like I have never seen that a sub do that
in a movie before, with the ice impact. Usually it's
(39:04):
just very slow, like hey, look we're gonna raise just
the tower out, that's all we brought with us to
our filming location. This was more like we're gonna drive
straight into the ice flow. And it was amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, it's really kind of tough because I think that
this gets back to something that Bigelow what we've noticed,
or at least what I've noticed while we've been looking
at her films is that from a technical aspect, it
is always five stars.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Across the board.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
As a technical artist, she is one of the best
out there in my opinion. The camera work that and
it's not even something where she ever gets credit for
any innovation or anything like that. But she takes the
technology that exists and she makes it really strong, and
she gets a crew around her that is going to
(40:03):
help put together something that's really strong from a technical perspective.
The downside is I think that it's almost similar, although
their styles are wildly different to where it can sometimes
go wrong with like a Zack Snyder movie, where the
technical part is there, the emotional part is what winds
(40:26):
up being lost in the shuffle, if that makes sense.
Where it's like, I feel like there should be more
emotional punch to this, But intellectually, I'm satisfied with the
way everything comes together and is constructed. So from an
intellectual perspective, I can look at it, I can say
that is a really well crafted film, but my heart
(40:50):
says eh. And it's tough because I think for film
to really land for a person, it has to have
that heart moment as much as anything technical. You'll forgive
a lot of technical problems if it really connects with
you on an emotional level. I think that's sort of
where this this struggles. And I think this is something
that we've seen happen with Big a Low throughout all
(41:13):
of her movies.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
John, I think I'm with you on that, where like,
this movie is really technically accurate. It has some great sets,
great cinematography, editing, even the music, Like I enjoyed the music,
and normally sometimes that's an afterthought or it's generic, Like
I thought this was actually had a lot of presence,
but there's there's a lot wrong with it. Like, I
(41:35):
feel like we were very gracious towards this movie for
a very big portion of the episode because we wanted
to like it, or at least I wanted to like it.
And I've seen this before. I was kind of like eh,
And then in preparation for this podcast, when I watched
it again, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna give it
a fair shake. And you know, it's been almost twenty
years since I've seen it, you know, like let's you know,
like let me get let me give it another shot,
(41:56):
but at the same time, I was just kind of like, eh,
you know, like the first act is so slow, it
takes so long to get into it, and the bickering
between Nisen and Ford is so repetitive, like you don't
feel like you have any build. It's just like it
almost feels episodic this movie, where it's just like and
(42:19):
then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens,
and it's hard to get connected with everyone because of
those things, and it's you know, like I get it.
The duty to the state versus duty to one's men
is very powerful, but sometimes I feel like it's over
articulated in the dialogue and it's a little simplistic with
(42:45):
how how complex real life can be in my opinion,
and I just I don't know. I feel like we
got a lot of I simultaneously appreciated that we were
we stayed on the boat, but at the same time
we had some sort of it felt like a visual monotony,
and I just could not connect with this movie. I
(43:06):
wanted to like it. I wanted to like this movie
so bad because it has so many people that I
like in it, and it's a great story based on
real events, which in itself makes it more compelling, but
it just does not reach that upper echelon.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I think the fact that, like you said, the story
never leaves the boat. You don't get any third presence,
sumniscient or anything. It's all their point of view. And
that's something where again, you know, it's hard to not
compare it to Red October, but at least but Red
October is we're seeing people on land, we're seeing government officials,
(43:48):
we're seeing other people, and I guess we do get
a tiny bit of that, you know, maybe a one percent,
but yeah, you need that to continue to build the world.
But I could also see going in that direction of no,
we're gonna tell the POV, we're gonna tell the tin
Can and that. So it's not a bad choice, it's
(44:13):
just it makes it harder to connect to the crew,
which I think we've all agreed on that.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah, And just to add on to what you're saying, Darren,
I think that more and maybe this is the you know,
lap Dog of the West speaking from my heart here.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
But American big dog.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Yes, but more of the thing, because there is there
are bits of it where like they encounters like, they
didn't give us radiation suits, they gave us chemical suits.
This is the wrong thing, so I'm trying to fight
radiation poisoning with aspirin. Like that was one of the
things that really contributed to the fall of the Soviets,
was like this bureaucratic nightmare of a life where it
(44:57):
was just like, they gave me the wrong thing. Old
was incorrect, this equipment is wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
It would have been like you gave me a fifty
volt piece of equipment that's supposed to handle seventy volts,
you know, something like that.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
It would have been nice to see more emotional reaction
to that, even if it was to give somebody the
opportunity to be like, shut up, the political officers go
to hear don't say things like that, so that we
could at least get the sense of what the movie establishes.
But I don't ever think lands the connective emotional punch
(45:31):
of this boat is a miracle that had even sailed
because of all of the compromises in construction and outfitting
that happened, which was simply a byproduct of the way
that that place ran. It was like, oh my goodness,
like this should have failed. This should have been a
(45:52):
disaster that potentially set off World War III. We're lucky
as Ella didn't. I didn't have that relief moment to
be like, oh geez, you know, like with the crew
complaining the whole time about like, ah, what, where's supposed
to be a superpower? Why can't I get a decent cracker?
You know, like that sort of vibe to the crew.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
It would be paid for by the lowest bidder.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Yeah, yeah, basically and by people who can't you know,
and determined by people who can't get fired because they
have party connections and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I mean, you know, I mean they are right, you know.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well, as we slide into our reviews, Tristan, I want
you to give your thoughts on length and pacing and
run time. That's often something we like to talk about,
and you'd already kind of talked a little about the
first act kind of dragging. I mean overall I felt
(46:48):
that this movie it it had a weird act structor,
Like it did not feel like one two three, It
felt like one no three. You know, So how did
that play out to you? And then go into your rating?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yeah, Like, as I mentioned, the first act really drags,
where you're kind of feeling like, Okay, when is the
movie gonna start? And like you said, it almost felt
like it had a five act structure, but not in
a well defined way where when you don't do a
five act structure properly, it feels like the way that
(47:23):
you just described it, Okay, a weird first act, a
super long second act, and then all of a sudden
hurry up and wait third act with a with a
super koda. Yeah that's what I was gonna say, in
a super weird coda. I was gonna say epilogue. But yes,
like it was just like, oh, okay, we didn't have
to end the movie here, Like we could have ended
(47:46):
the movie with Harrison Ford stripping on the boat and
then just some title cards. I think that would have
been fine. Like I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but yeah,
the the it was like what two hours and nineteen minutes,
but it was actually much shorter than that if you
take away the credits, and so I didn't really feel
like it was too long. It just was structured oddly,
(48:10):
and like I said, it felt like it was episodic
within itself, which is not a good thing to feel
when watching a movie. And so to me because of
all the thing with the structure, with the lack of
emotional connection with a solemnity, and this this visual dourness.
(48:30):
I wanted to like this movie, I really did, but
I'm going to give it a two and a half stars.
This movie's not bad. It's not good. It's just eh h.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah that's the sound I hear.
Speaker 4 (48:45):
Eh, yeah, I could. I I'm vibing with everything you're saying, Tristan,
I really am. I think I'm a little more forgiving
because I think that I still am in awe of
how well the camera moves inside such a tight space.
(49:06):
It really is something that amazed me while I was
watching it, where I think that of all of the
submarine movies that I've watched, this is the first one
since dust Bolt where I felt the claustrophobia where I
really felt like I was trapped in a space that
I didn't want to be in and made me question
(49:30):
why in the hell anybody would do this to themselves.
Relatives in the Navy, some of them did submarine duty,
and I'm like, I don't know how you don't go
crazy in a place like that. I can't even like
an airplane is too cramped for me. Would I would
have lost my mind inside a submarine, like I couldn't
have done it. And I really applaud that camera work.
(49:55):
I think the sound design is, you know, to what
Darren was talking about earlier, Like I thought the sound
as I was very good. A lot of technical high
marks for this, and so I think I wind up
grading it a little generously because will I ever come
back to K nineteen. I don't think so, but I
(50:17):
could see a situation wherein I'm sort of, you know,
on the couch one night, I'm having trouble sleeping, and
I'm like and I'm like just looking through the services
and it's like, oh, K nineteen's eh, okay, sure I'll
turn that on. Just because I enjoy the technical aspects
of it. I think that that stuff flows pretty well.
So I'm going to give it a three. It's sort
(50:39):
of a generous three. I could have gone too, because
again I have no emotional connection. I think the coda
at the end is weird, almost like it's just an
excuse to get Harrison Ford an old person makeup. And
you know, although I think Harrison Ford looks great in
(50:59):
a goatee, and I think he should try to look
more often. But yeah, so that's a generous three for me.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, to that point, I think a Liam Neeson looks
with nineties old man glasses looks great in that, Like
they sold those looks really well in that end shot
in the coda. Yeah. No, I agree with all we've
said the technical aspect. I liked what you were leaning
(51:28):
into John about like when would I watch this again?
And I feel like I would put it in rotation
if I was on a submarine kick, if I was like, oh,
I want to watch a bunch of submarine movies, Like, yeah,
I would put it on the list. I would watch it.
You know. It wasn't engaging enough, it was interesting enough
on its submarineness. You know, I wouldn't watch it going
(51:51):
I really want to watch a movie where I connect
with the characters. No, that's not its strength, but for
shooting in a oh, it definitely does. So I'm giving
it a three as well. I know we're going to
keep going up, but I feel like I'm topped out
a three so far for Catherine Pigelow for the last
(52:11):
couple of films. But yeah, it's as we talk about
her in the greater context. You know, she's nailing the technical,
she's nailing you know, the look, and it's just getting
that right combo of actor and directing and story and
caring that I think we're probably gonna get next week,
(52:34):
as this little thing called the Academy seemed to really
really enjoy it. But yeah, as we move past CA.
Nineteen The Widow Maker, next week we're going to be
talking about two thousand and eight's The hurt Locker.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
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