Hall of Ephron - 132 - Sleepless in Seattle

"Sleepless in Seattle" holds a special place in the hearts of many for its endearing performances and unique premise. However, a critical examination reveals a film that falls victim to predictability and lacks depth in its supporting characters. While the chemistry between Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan shines, the narrative fails to break free from romantic comedy conventions, leaving audiences craving more originality. Nevertheless, the enchanting soundtrack and moments of genuine tenderness ensure that "Sleepless in Seattle" still holds some appeal, particularly for fans of the genre.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the nerd Party. Helloeverybody at home, and welcome to Houselights,

(00:24):
specifically the Efron Hallway. We're takinga little bit of a departure this
week and next week because frankly,we wanted to and it's our podcast and
we can do what we want.Last week we talked about When Harry Met
Sally, which was not directed byNora Ephron, but it was written by
her. And so this week weare taking Sleepless in Seattle that came out

(00:47):
in nineteen ninety three, which wasdirected by Nora Efron, and talking about
it, and you know what,we kind of wanted to keep going in
that vein, and so next weekwe're doing You've Got Mail, which wasn't
directed by Ephron, but it waswritten by her, and it's also starring
Tom Hanks and Megrind, just likethis one. So thank you so much

(01:07):
for tuning in, downloading, subscribing. Make sure to go to the nerdputty
dot com for all of our backloggedepisodes and all of our other directors that
we have talked about and all ofour different categories that we've ventured forth into,
and make sure to check out someother shows while you're at the nerdputty
dot com because we've got something foreveryone, something coming out every single day

(01:29):
of the week. And with metonight, as they always are, is
Darren and DC Moser and Insomniac andIdaho Mills. I am so excited to
talk about this tonight because John,this is your first time seeing slippers in
Seattle. Indeed, this was amissing frame for me as well. You've

(01:49):
got mail b one as well.Grammarly things words together go. So when
did you immigrate into this country?Well, I remember the ad campaign for
Sleepless in Seattle. I also rememberthat it was during the time when I
was most active, going out intothe world, having lots of fun and

(02:09):
not getting many dates as a sidenote, and so I wasn't wasn't much
for going to the romantic movies backthen, and it just sort of like
it was always there. Seriously,It's just like this wasn't stacked up against
Batman or anything. So you know, yeah, no, I mean,
ninety three wasn't even a particularly strongyear. As I recall it. Jurassic

(02:30):
Park was probably the biggest one Icould think of. But yeah, but
I mean, like Jurassic Parking shouldso it was like year of Spielberg and
like everything else was like what elsehappened? I struggled to remember. I
mean Philadelphia was ninety three as well, right, wasn't it? I think
it will this Yeah. This wasalso a June release, so it was
a which is kind of seemed tobe a weird time for a summer.

(02:53):
But but you know, it's oneof those ones where you keep hearing about
it and you just I think youwere saying with um with when Harry mets
out, it's like, yeah,I'll get to it. Like I'll get
to it. I'll get to it, and your your queue keeps growing and
then eventually you gotta you know,wait for podcasting to be invented, and
then somebody say, hey, youwant to watch that? You go,
sure, why not? And thereyou go and here we are, Darren.

(03:15):
What's your relationship with this film?Um, i'd seen it before,
but it had been a little while. Oh gosh, I couldn't even tell
you when I first saw it.It was most likely on a date,
just putting in a movie. Uh. You know, it's just one of
those quintessential, you know, chickflicks of you know, it's right it's

(03:37):
mag Run and Tom Hanks. Likeyou could just make a lineup of Meg
Ryan and Tom Hanks and this wouldbe right there in the middle of it.
So, uh yeah, no,it's it's it's very nineties. I
love the looking things up on thecomputer montage as we're like, yes,
you know, it's it's not quitethe Internet. But also it's not like

(04:00):
war games. It's kind of inthe middle. It's very it's very Lexis
Nexus, but it's not the waythings really were back then. Darren sounds
like you've seen it before, hadseen it a long time. John,
You've never seen it before. Iam on the complete opposite side of the
spectrum. I got it in blueray, you got it in four K,
you got like the special collector's poster. That's what I'm expecting you to

(04:24):
say. Photograph lazer disc, Yeah, like taped off a TV, then
a VHS, then a DVD,then a blue ray. You got the
MC clunky version, you got everythingMark Clunky. Yes. No, I
was basically raised on this movie.My entire family loved it, like all
four of us, like not justme and my parents, but also my

(04:46):
sister and which you know, she'skind of the black sheep of the family,
and so it was really important andspecial to us. We would quote
it constantly. There's little things thatwould just like pop up in our lexicon,
Like during Christmas, it's impossible forme not to go, harsisis artist
like sometimes even if it's not Christmas, and it is a memorable moment.

(05:06):
Yeah, I was just seeing itthe way that Meg Ryant did, and
it's just this was it was.It was interesting because you know, uh,
John, you talked about it being, you know, a rom com
and uh, you know, lastweek we talked about when when Harry met
Sally was considered rom com and mepersonally, I was thinking, like,

(05:30):
you know, actually know you,I think we we we quote un like
we were we were talking about howsome people would call it quote unquote at
chick flick and we're like, oh, it's like our people calling it a
chick flick just because it's a romcom. And to me, growing up
with this kind of stuff, thiswas just a comedy. To me,
like, it wasn't a chick flick. It wasn't even a romantic comedy.
It was just a comedy. Itwas a family movie. Like that's that's

(05:54):
what it was to me, andso I enjoyed it as a young lad,
like not looking for something to inspireme to go find my perfect love.
Like I was Jonah's age when Iwas watching this, and it was
this was just a hilarious movie witha lot of heartwarming moments. And so
if you're Jonas's age, does thatmean the best scene was like when he

(06:16):
just books his own plane ticket andjust takes off. Is that every kids,
that's like blank check territory where you'rejust like, yeah, this is
great and just to wait in onthis. While it was a lot easier
to fly in the nineteen nineties,not as easy as this movie might portray.
Just just throwing it out there.Look, look, you just have

(06:36):
to have your best friend's mom bea travel agent and unfettered five minutes of
access to our computer. That's all. That's all. That's all you need.
If it's in the computer, they'llbelieve it. They saw with the
Dark Web. It's the dark Webthe early days. There you go,
yeah, I mean for your younglisteners, pre nine to eleven was a

(06:59):
wild time. It was the wildWest, so different of airline flights.
You could actually show up within fiveminutes of the door. People would just
go and hang out at the airportand go to like the food court like
it's a mall. Yes, likenot even because that scene where he is
meeting is it is it Rita Wilsonor I can't believe who. I can't

(07:21):
remember if it's his date, theone with the funny laugh he but like
his is leaving to go leaving thetight and they're at the gate. They're
out there at the gate like peoplelike young people watch this movie are just
like, what is he doing?How do you get in there? You
still it didn't matter you, Idon't did you even need to show that
you were with someone who was bornin the plane? It was it was

(07:43):
a public building like a library,folks. It was that easy to just
go in. You can walk in, because who else would want to go
to an airport. It's boring,Like there's no real reason to go there
unless you're going somewhere. This couldgo real dark, real fast, So
let's bring it on back. Iwouldn't even thinking that way, and then

(08:03):
we'd all just kind of got quieta little bit. Yeah, So okay,
so we have Tom Hanks, SamBaldwin, may grin any Read and
they share two minutes of screen timetogether. They don't even kiss, they
barely exchange any words together. Whatwere they thinking? How did this movie

(08:28):
get made? You know, like, how how do you pitch this,
Darren? How do you pitch thisto the studio? What do you say
about it? I would start with, what's gonna sound crazy? Because it
is? What if they didn't meetuntil the no I was reading about that
in the Wikipedia and the and thesources on this, and I was like,

(08:50):
wow, yeah, how I'm notsurprised that like six studios turned it
down. And we're like, sowait, you have the chemistry of these
two and you're literally not going toput them in the same scene like almost
ever, Like it doesn't it doesn'tmake a lot of sense on paper.
They showed the script of kim basingher trying to get her as any Read,

(09:11):
and she's like, this premise isabsurd for that reason, and then
you know, turned it down.I would say that I understand where kim
basing her was coming from with that, because I, well, let's wade
into the territory here, right Annie. I made the drive basically between Baltimore
and DC many times, and whileI know that if you get caught between

(09:37):
the Moon and New York City,the only thing you can do is fall
in love. I would have neverthought that Baltimore and DC would have been
too romantic polls like that. Butas she's driving along and she hears on
the radio some sob story and sherearranges her entire life around the idea that
she's going to go off and meetthis person. I want to throw out

(10:00):
to you, gentlemen, that comingat it is somebody viewing it for the
first time. If I were assessingthe screenplay, my problem would probably start
with the fact that we're introduced toBill Pullman's character and he's a decent enough
guy, and then the moment thatshe announces that she's going to get married
to him, all of a sudden, the movie decides, you know what,

(10:22):
we should really work hard to makeit seem like this is a giant
pain in the butt, and youscratch your head and say, why did
she say yes? Because it's notlike these things were news to her when
he started sneezing during the Christmas dinner. So I pose this question to you,
gents, as you watch this,why did Annie say yes to him?

(10:43):
To be his fiance. I don'tthink and you can rephrase, or
you can elaborate a little bit,but I don't think she said no because
he was weird or odd, orbecause he sneezed or was allergic to anything.
I didn't get that at all.I never got that as a read
like. I don't think that theywere showing him as you know, a

(11:07):
pain in the ass or someone tobe embarrassed of, and that's why she
left him. I think it wasjust like, Oh, she wanted that
spark, she wanted that magic,she wanted that fantastical you know sah.
I'm saying the movie overcorrects for him. He's not just bland, he's he's

(11:28):
like she has reaction shots when he'syou know, as the movie goes on
and he's talking about sort of thehurdles, like when they get to dim
some and his first reaction is doesit have wheat in it? And then
she has a moment and you seethat moment on her face. I think

(11:48):
the movie overcorrects and makes I thinkthat it works to make him, make
her eventual departure from him inevitable fromthe beginning, as opposed to showing him
as just he's just you know,instead of just showing him as just a

(12:11):
normal guy, he's like a specialcase in a sense, Like the movie
is trying to do it comically,but it's trying to show that, like,
oh, well, there's no wayshe could ever be happy with this
guy. And so my question becomes, since the movie works so hard to
show that, why would somebody havesaid yes if you know, like there's
no apparent spark between them at allbefore she even hears the radio, And

(12:35):
it's like, I don't get whythey fell in love to begin with.
Yeah, I mean, I agreewith both of you. I agree with
Tristan and the fact that they annienever except for maybe a few wide eyed
moments like she is, She's notbasing her leaving Walter. It's only based
around not having that spark, notactually feeling like she's in love with him

(13:01):
or what love should be or whatevershe's believing it to be. But yeah,
John, you're right, they theyreally be like, hey, look
here's the package deal. This iswhat you're getting, you know, having
to count wheat particles every time youmake food for the rest of your life,
and yeah, they overindulge in Yeah, like why would you even want

(13:22):
to go with this person? Andmaybe I don't. I don't know where
they would have put it in themovie. Well, but like where else
they could have, Like I don'tsee anything of their relationship. We see
the moment he meets the parents andthen like the fallout, so like we
don't get any of the where didthey meet? Why did they like?

(13:46):
Is she settling? Is she notsettling? Is she like what? Like?
We don't know any of that.All we know is that he doesn't
like meat. I would I wouldhave to speak to that point. What
I'm saying is I would have appreciatedeven some sort of conversation with her Rosy
O'Donnell friend, where she's saying,well, I mean we've been going out
together for a number of years,we should get married. We've been together

(14:09):
for so long, so that getsme. He loves bry like I like
poetry or exactly. Then she shedoes have that conversation. She does,
Okay, at what point does shehave she has an exact conversation with o'don
like she has a breakdown, andthen she's like Walter, I of course

(14:31):
I love Walter. I'm a foolnot to marry him that different where where
she's playing uh New York and she'slike, oh, that'll be fine.
I can go to the Empire StateBuilding because I'll be there with Walter and
she's like with Walter, well whatam I doing? Yeah, she has
that kind of Hey, what amI doing that? That's not the conversation
I'm looking for. I know,the conversation you're talking about. I'm talking

(14:52):
about something earlier in the development ofthe script, where she's a Now she's
getting married, and then you haveher co workers saying, oh, wow,
you're engaged, you know, likea surprise sort of thing, like
oh you are and then she says, oh, well, yeah, you
know, we've been going together fortwo years. We might as well,
you know, like where where youget the sense that she's doing it just
because it's what's expected, because theyhaven't broken up by this point, as

(15:16):
opposed to the conversation you're talking about. I mean, I just think it's
missing. She has another conversation withher brother where she talks about getting cold
feet. That's not I think.I know that you love the movie.
I know that you love the movie, but I'm saying this is not that
argument. I like you need tomake the argument. I am making the

(15:39):
argument, but you're just you're missingyour points on the film where no,
I'm not, I'm not Those pointsare not what I'm talking about. I'm
talking about In the movie, itnever presents a reasoning why she's in love
with Walter. There's a conversation whereshe says, of course I should be
with Walter. There's a conversation whereshe has with her brother where she says,

(16:00):
oh, maybe I'm just getting coldfeet. But I don't ever get
the sense from the beginning of themovie. I never understand why she's with
him. To begin with, it'sbeyond any of the any of the stuff
that he has going on with him. It's beyond anything like that. I
never sense. Maybe I'm just sayinglike and trying not to say because I

(16:21):
think it's such a clunky sort ofthing. I never feel any chemistry between
her and Bill Pullman, Like let'scontrast it with when Harry Metz. Bill
Pullman could have been any actor almost, but it's even beyond the any actor
thing I see. I don't getany meat on the bone with these characters
relationship. I don't see anything whereI would see these two people interacting and

(16:42):
say, yes, it makes sensethat they're in a relationship. There's no
affection that I see on I mean, if she had just married him for
a few more years, she wouldhave been the first lady. It could
have been great. She missed itby by that much. By that much.
Yes, it's the point, Tristan. And that's the problem is that
it spends all of this time puttingher in a situation. Again, Let's

(17:06):
contrast it with when Harry met Sally, where the whole thing is the organic
growth of their relationship over time,and we see the hits and the misses
and you know that the spark almostfiring and those sorts of things. Bill
Pullman feels like, just, oh, well, she's got to be in
a relationship in order for us totell you know this movie, Like you

(17:26):
could excise Bill Pullman from this script. You could excise Walter's character and just
have her be somebody who's never metthe spark. And I think the movie's
more charming if she's not in thatrelationship, is what I'm saying, Like
it sets up the relationship. MaybeI'm just reacting to the fact that I
know the minute they introduce Walter.I'm like, well, of course she's

(17:47):
going to discard him, so Inever make any emotional effort to get connected
to him through the movie. Andyou know, maybe it's as simple as
that. It's like, you don'tneed the Walter character. You can just
have her. At the Christmas dinner, everyone's when are you gonna meet a
guy? When are you gonna,you know, find that special spark or
something like that. And then she'sdriving for some reason to go back to
work after the dinner, and thenshe hears on the radio and she goes,

(18:08):
I think I found the guy,and everyone's like, you're nuts.
He's in Seattle, what are youtalking about? Like that's I'm not trying
to rewrite the movie, but I'msaying I honestly think if if I were
sitting there in the story conferences,I mean, like, you know what,
I don't think, Well, it'snecessary, I think, I mean,
I don't think I think that isa solid point. But I feel

(18:30):
like that's more of a condemnation ofromantic comedies in general and film in general
than it is specifically this movie.Because whenever there is some sort of I
don't want to say triangle, butwhenever there's like whenever there's a romantic comedy
and like a man needs to getwith a woman and there's needs to be

(18:53):
obstacles in the way on both sides. There's your the woman is almost oh,
i'd say ninety nine percent of thetime is going to have a man
that you're just like, oh,well, this is the guy that's going
to get dumped by the end ofthe movie to go with the lead.
And so basically the way to salvagethat if you're going to use that trope

(19:15):
to me personally is what I can'tstand in movies and in comedies and things
like that is when they make theguy the biggest asshole in the world,
where they're just like, oh mygosh, like this guy is the complete
opposite of this person. He youknow, he hits children, he kills
animals. You know, he doesn'tput his card away at the super at

(19:37):
the super market, you know,like that kind of stuff, Like like
that's what I can't stand with thiskind of thing. I can totally excuse
a lack of chemistry. I cantotally excuse a lack of backstory because I
have seen dead marriages before, youknow, like I have seen fiances and
husband and wives where you're just like, where did you meet? Holy Frapp?

(20:00):
How why are you guys even together? Like you might as well be
business partners or people who just livedtogether. And so to me, this
doesn't seem like out of left field. Could it have worked without Walter and
with the way that you described it? Yeah, I think so. But
I also really enjoy some of thecomedic moments that Bill Paxton brings Pullman to
the I did it, I didit, you walked right. I swore

(20:23):
to myself that I wouldn't do thattonight, Just like Fry when he drinks
the three hundred cups of coffee.We should have like a little ding on
in the lower right hand corner ofhow many times somebody screws up? And
says Paxton when they meet Pullman,So that's number one ding So I get
that. I don't agree with it. I get it. I think it's

(20:44):
a larger condemnation of romantic comedies andfilm structure in general. But I think
I like the character because of theromantic, because of the comedy that he
brings, because he's an eccentric Ilike that he's not just a cardboard cutout
of a man and who's just thereto fill in some lines. He actually
is funny, Like they're like likethe moments when says like like she's like

(21:07):
somewhere in Duluth and he's like,oh, that's a North Dakota or like
when like in the dim sunthing,when he asked if there's weed in it,
like I laugh at that every singletime, or when he said he's
like I had to have him sizeit down asking for a bottle of don
Delouise, which it's a terrible joke. I get it, will totally get
it. But and you know thatthat waiter was like yes, yes,

(21:30):
sir, thank thank you Sarah forgreat and then like your superior wit.
And then there's moments when like Annieis describing something where she's like, look
what there's that the funniest thing?What what was it? You know?
And she like she's laughing to herself. Where she is in love with them.
She knows that she's in love withthem, at least she thinks she
does, even if her friends don'tunderstand it or get it. So I

(21:53):
get what you're saying about removing Walter, but at the same time I think
that you're glossing over a lot ofstuff. I don't think I'm glossing over
a lot of stuff, but Iwill show a little bit of leg here
that I have a specific distaste for. And this might be my biggest challenge
with romantic movies in general. Idon't like when somebody is emotionally faithless in

(22:21):
a relationship and it bothers me.It bothers me, And maybe that's why
I think Walter should be excised fromthe thing. Because you talk about obstacles.
You have the biggest obstacle of alltwo complete strangers, one of whom
has only ever even heard the other'svoice, separated by three thousand plus miles.
I think speak enough obstacle. Idon't think you need any other obstacles.

(22:42):
But I mean, that's just me. I'm a crazy guy. I'm
marking John down as no go onthe premise right off the bat. Okay,
all right, so it's a problem. So I want one thing I
want to talk about. Um isyou know I mentioned kim basing her earlier,
so apparently who knows if this istrue? This is what we always

(23:03):
mentioned. Who knows if these triviaeffects are true? But the role of
any read was originally offered to JuliaRoberts, who turned it down. Kim
Basinger was also offered the role inthe early script process, but turned it
down because she thought the premise wasridiculous. As mentioned previously, Oscar winner
Kim Basinger and John Mills Simpatico.After Michelle Pheiffer, Jennifer, Jason Lee,

(23:27):
and Jodie Foster declined it, MegRyan landed the role. Is there
anybody on that list that you guysthink could have pulled this movie off besides
Meg Ryan, Roberts, Basinger,Phifer, Jason Lee, Sharon Stone.
I think Sharon Stone. I thinkJennifer Jason Lee could have pulled it off.
Yeah, I do. No.Oh, so this is another thing.

(23:52):
I think Saron Stone could do this. Yeah, I do, man,
I Wolf, I do. Ihardcore don't see Stone in this.
I completely can see Sharon Stone inthis. I really she can be funny,
but I don't think I've ever seenher in this lighthearted, a bubbly,
neurotic kind of thing. Well,then, my friend, you need

(24:14):
to Then you need to see AlanQuartermaine in the Lost City of Gold or
King Solomon's minds. Then you'll understandthat Kim basing Or can deal with.
By the way, just say,in case anybody's wondering, I do say
that ironically because those movies are terrible. But um no, I could see
Sharon Stone in this. Absolutely.I could see Jennifer Jason Lee because I
can see Jennifer Jason Lee just aboutanything. I think she's a wonderful actress,

(24:37):
and like, if you put herin a movie, I'm like,
oh, I'm interested, Like Idon't know. I think that Sharon Stone
might have brought up I don't knowwhy, and maybe she brings a more
serious edge to the character, likeI could maybe maybe that's why I could
see a play. I don't know, but yeah, I could see those
two play in it. Sure,Darren, what about you? Oh gosh,

(25:02):
I just I keep feeling like it'sa Meg Ryan movie. I have
a really hard time separating the rolefrom her. I mean, just this,
there's something about Meg Ryan's roles whatI think of, like interspace,
I think of, you know again, like with Harry met Sally, where
like it not that someone else couldn'tplay the role and not that you're not.

(25:23):
And I think you're right, John, Like some of your suggestions are
like, I could see them inthat role, but once Meg Ryan takes
over something, it just distills intothat, at least for me. So
I have a really hard time.Now I have an easier time kind of
looking at the other of like,well, who is she paired up with,
because I've seen her paired up withmany different you know, leading men,

(25:48):
I mean often Tom Hanks, He'sgot a little higher percentage than you
know, some of the others,not like Bill Paxson, but you know
that was that was actually and alsospeak another correct usage of Bill Paxton is
that apparently for the role for TomHanks roll of Sam Baldwin, Didnis Quaid,
Michael Keaton, John Travilta, JohnRitter, and Bill Paxton were considered

(26:14):
for the role of Sama the samemovie The Universe Explode. Yes, I
could see Quaid, I could seeI think I think Keaton would probably be
my favorite from all of them.I think Keaton could have nailed sim I
have never really seen him in manyromantic roles. I'm not that he hasn't
done it, I just haven't seenit. Person I would have liked Keaton
Moore because I think Keaton would havebeen funnier with the kid. I think

(26:38):
Hanks is a funny, but Ithink he would have been a different kind
of dad. But I think hewould have played it really well. And
I think he can do certain typesof reactions with kids, Like there's a
certain type of reaction shot with Keatonthat I think would have played really really
well with some of those moments theyYeah, why while I have to agree

(27:03):
with you, it's hard for meI can actually have to agree with you
because of the unspoken that we haveamongst us. But the moment that,
like the scene that Tom Hanks andRoss Mallinger Mallinger, I don't know how
Jonah, you know, like whenthey when they share that scene where they

(27:25):
just they both break down and Jonahis just screaming at Sam and he's just
like, Ah, shut up,Jonah. It's like, shut up,
shut up. Mom never told meto shut up. Mom never yelled at
me. And he's just like he'slike, he's like, have you ever
seen fatal attraction? You wouldn't letme. He's like, well, scare

(27:45):
the shit out of me out ofevery man in America. I love that
scene between the two of and Ithink they worked off of each other really
well. Do I think Keaton couldhave done more of that and do it
better. Yes, But at thesame time, I don't want to knock
Hanks in the process. Oh,I wouldn't knock Hanks. The Hanks is
right on the precipice here in ninetythree of transitioning to serious actor Tom Hanks.

(28:10):
And in a sense, it's reallyit's really interesting because I remember this
movie and I remember the I mean, when Philadelphia comes out, everybody has
this whiplash effect like, oh,Tom Hanks, serious actor? What happened?
Oscar nominee? And this feels muchmore like a Tom Hanks sort of

(28:32):
movie and makes it even more puzzlingwhy he turned down when Harry met Sally.
You know, you mentioned when wewere talking about that that he felt
that script was too light, andI, honestly, I look at this
script and I asked myself, what'sthe court. I have to believe that
Hanks came at this and said Imissed when Harry met Sally. I'm not
going that's it. Honestly, Ihonestly think that's it. Yeah, I'm

(28:56):
not going to make the mistake orwhat is um It's like Crystal where he
said, like, I think hewas maybe offered Woody and he turned it
down. And so when Mike Wazowskicame along, he was like he could
turning down Woody was the biggest regretof his career. And he's like,
I'm not turning down anything they giveme. And that's really funny is because

(29:19):
um, Tom Hanks was recording hislines for Woody at the same time that
he was filming this movie. Andthat is just a mind bender of a
time zone. Yeah it is.So this is what Tom Hanks looked like
while he was recording. Yes,this is this is Tom Hanks Woody era,
which is so weird because I thinkthe first one came out in ninety

(29:41):
five, didn't it right, Butobviously you would have recorded all the dialogue
earlier, well before. And theywere actually I think they had him film,
They had him record a lot becausehe basically recorded a completely different movie.
That's when they first come in,Yeah, the more jerk verse of
Woody, and then they're like,oh man, he's too much of an

(30:02):
ass, so let's do the movieagain. I Uh, I want to
go ahead and say that you know, Hanks as the architect and Ryan as
the newspaper writer. It that feelsvery nineties to me. It's like those
were the two most popular professions rightright, Like it's kind of like it

(30:27):
bends my brain because I look atthese jobs and I remember there there was
a book I've read many years agowhere they said that the guy writing a
book was like, oh, younever want to write a script, or
the person just has an intellectual job, or that they don't really do anything
like something like. And I lookat these jobs and I'm like, this

(30:48):
is such a tiny sliver of thepopulation that can relate to what these people
do for a living, Like,couldn't he just have some sort of bland
office job that some one of uswho you know, dead eyed drones could
relate to, to be like oh, yeah, I know what that's like,
you know, as opposed to like, he's an architect. Yeah he
has like a you know, wasit I thought he was a contractor based

(31:11):
on that scene in the house.I thought that was his whatever, it's
the same, Yeah, you know, he's but but he's like he's like
an architect or a designer or somethinglike that, and he's like designing dream
houses for people. And I'm likethat such a weird thing to go for,
Like I don't. I don't.There's a side of me that's like

(31:34):
I would prefer that sort of thingto be a little bit more of to
use the term every man sort ofthing, something that a larger portion of
the population can like a teacher,you know, or something like that.
Yeah, I'll give you a teacher, or like a like a middle school
teacher or something. There was justlike a director at a big company or

(31:55):
something that's like, yeah, youknow, it's that's movie director. Everybody's
a movie director. There was amovie producer crazy. There's a rom com
with um David d'covney and Mini dMini Driver that no one likes but me
called The Heart Transplant, right,Yes, it's called Return to Me.
It's about a heart transplant and mywife's favorite movie. I've seen it so

(32:17):
many times. Love that's so good, so good. I'm so happy to
hear you say that. No,I'm dead serious, Like she loves that
movie. I've seen it dozens oftimes. Yeah. David Kovney, he
is a contractor, that's what heis. Builds with his hands. But
like he's kind of like a toplevel contractor, so he still builds,
builds with his hands, but he'sgot a little mula in his pocket,

(32:40):
you know, he's it's a littlebit more white collar. Mini driver,
waitress. Her father owns the place, but she's a waitress. You know.
These are all things that people canrelate to. His hands on work.
It's not just a drone in theoffice. But at the same time,
it's not like what I do wherelike my grandfather doesn't even know what
I do. You know, Like, that's that's kind of my litmus test.

(33:01):
If my grandfather doesn't understand what thejob is, then you're missing some
of your demographic. That's true.Ad it's that one. And While you
Were Sleeping that's another one of herfavorites, which I think While You're Sleeping
is a is a five star film. That's also Bill Pullman, isn't it
Isn't he in that one? No, it's Paxton. I'm just kidding.

(33:22):
It's Pullman ding. Yes, that'salso Pullman pre President. Okay, So,
Jonah Baldwin, what did you thinkabout Jonah in this movie as part
of the story, as the character, as kind of the the thing that
moves some plot forward. Did youlike the actor, did you like the

(33:43):
character. Did you think it shouldhave been reworked? John, I'm going
to go to you second, Darren, what do you I definitely want to
hear your opinion as well, Tristan, because I know you don't particularly care
for children actors in John don't.But I I liked him. I felt
it was you know, it wasa nice little bite size of a role.

(34:07):
You know. He he had tohe had to sell caring for his
dad and not just like I'm onset this week. Um, And I
think I had read that he wasactually the like an earlier not an earlier
choice, but like he wasn't theoriginal cast and it wasn't working with the
original choice, and they went backto him, which it's like, hey,

(34:27):
if it's not working, it's notlike it's this you has that part
has to be sold. So No, I I liked him. I liked
Ross as as jonah. Um.I mean again, it's it's very blank
check to like and we're just goingto go to New York and you know,
just make it work. I mean, yes, it's the nineties and
we're going to insert these like acronymsthat kids say, which no they don't.

(34:52):
Nobody said that nobody. We neverdo that. But you know what,
I can look past that because there'sother issues that will get to But
no, overall, I liked Iliked Ross. I think he did a
great job as as the kid.And you know, he's and he's a
he's a all has to be isthe kind you'd want to tussle his hair.

(35:15):
He's got that little bit of magic. And you could see Annie,
you know, wanting to be hismom. You know that was it was.
It was cute, John. Whydo you hate children? To let
us know? Oh jeez, that'swhere I had three of them? Is
because I hate them so much.Um Okay, So I don't fault the

(35:37):
actor at all, but I thinkthat the scripts. Wait wait, wait,
that was a punch and it wasa long drawback one best and I
hit it with a south Paul.Here's this so boom? Yeah? I
mean is it a rope a dopeif you see it coming a mile away?

(36:00):
Yes, yes, that makes it. That makes it the worst kind
of ropetote. Um I would Thewriting is by people who don't either have
children or understand how children actually are. Um to speak to the other.
Thing about these acronyms. It's like, Oh, somebody's trying to make fetch

(36:22):
happen. Cool? Cool, allright, I see this, um,
But you know, I would loveto see what they filmed with the original
kid, because Hanks apparently didn't likethat kid and got him fired. And
how would you like to be akid choose career like your parents are like,

(36:42):
this is it. You made yourbig freak movie with Tom Hanks.
Tom Hanks gets you fired. That'sgot for you. Yeah, it does.
I was reading he was being annoying, like kind of off camera,
like in scenes he wasn't in,so it was making it difficult for Hanks
to do the actual other scenes.And I'm like, dude, just go

(37:02):
to your trailer, like you don'thave to be here, like you got
a good thing. You'd think that, but you'd think somebody could say,
hey, what over here, let'sgo to your trailer where we have a
stand up video game. Let's goplay. Hey we got the Nintendo,
you can go over here. Wehave had a ninety three. Yeah you
know that this sunds like a handlerfailed at their job on that way.

(37:24):
Yeah, yeah, it does.But that kid is going to live the
rest of his life with that.That's that's got a sting. That's got
a sting. Um great Icebreaker partiesthough, But I, um, I
don't. I'm sorry. I'm justlike now I have this entire image in
my head, like the glasses,that the ice is clinking against the glass.

(37:45):
He's like, you know, Icould have been somebody. I could
have somebody. I view him asKenner reads his character in the Last Time
I Committed Suicide, which is adelightful little film that nobody in the world
saw but me. Then what agreat pull to relate to the audience.
You know, I'm trying to letpeople know movies to see that they might

(38:07):
want to spend their time watching.It's a charming little movie. It's a
it's about Neil Cassidy, the truefather the Beat movement. But um,
I like the Kid's fine. I'llnever fall to kid for working with what's
given to them. But I don'tthink the script doesn't any favors. Um.

(38:28):
It's it's a kid written by peoplewho are trying to make the kid
too adult. I guess that couldbe why I actually like Jonah is because
he's not He doesn't sound like atypical kid, and he doesn't act like
a typical kid, because when thathappens, I usually can't stand it.

(38:49):
Like with with stand By Me,like those those kids actually acted like kids,
and I knew those kids, andI hated those kids. I don't
want to see those kids on screen, Joe. I would I love seeing
on screen because I think it's funny. And I love the conversation that he
has with Tom when he's just like, so if you like am, like,
if you start dating, I can'tremember exactly I'll goes. But he's

(39:10):
like, if you get married again, you're gonna have sex with each other.
And he's just like, I hope, so like he doesn't he like
it doesn't stop, and he doesn'tsay, like why are you asking me
this question? And then like hesays it's about like screaming and scratching up
her back and stuff like that.He's like what it's like Jed's got cable
and then he just like puts thetowel in front of his face like jet
table. That's a funny, endearingscene, but it's a very pseudo adult

(39:35):
conversation, Like it's the type ofconversation. It's a very scripted scene exactly
exactly, and like when when Jonah'son the phone and the way that he
acts with um doctor marsha uh andum it says like my you know,
oh my dad's been captured by ahoo all fun stuff. Love it,
But John, I can't argue thatit's it's a script written by adults for

(40:02):
a pseudo adult. Yep. Yeah, he's an old souled child because he
has to be for the plot towork. And now we can get on
the plane. I always laugh wheneverI see uh Maggie Baldwin pop up in
his fantasies and I'm just like,oh my god, it's a Bond girl.

(40:22):
Tom Hanks was married to a Bondgay he married. Well, you
know, what can you saying?You married a Bond girl? Congrats,
well done, Okay, good foryou. Um yeah, there's a lot
of there's a lot of fun facesthat that that pop up in here.
I mean, we've got we've gotFrancis Conroy, David Hyde, Pierce,
uh Rita Wilson, Victor Garber.So so what David Hype Pierce shows up.

(40:45):
I'm like, is this all abig elaborate episode of Frasier because it
kind of feels like it like ithas major Frasier vibes. You're you're correct,
because there's a there's an on airecologist who's or psychiatrist whatever, on
air therapists who who is theattle ofthe plot in it's in Seattle. And

(41:07):
he even has a line where hesays, nobody likes Seattle. It rains
all the time. And like Frasiercame out in ninety three, the same
year this film did, and I'mlike, that is just too weird,
you know, obviously, And it'sa therapist himself, right, yeah,
so it's and he's describing the typeof relationship or fairly similar from merists.

(41:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, either we were gonna get
married or we're gonna break up.So we got married. Yeah. And
some would say Cheers was a backdoorpilot for Frasier, but some would say
it was. Some would say it'dbe correct, but some others would be
incorrect, would say it was Sleeplessin Seattle. So Victor Garber Rita Wilson

(41:50):
the dinner scene where they're talking aboutan affair to remember, which you know,
they took a lot of inspiration froman affair to Remember, and then
they're talking about their dirty dozen couldbe one of the greatest dinner scenes.
I laughed so much when they're makingit. The Dirty Doesn't Talk. Oh
my god. I will give thismovie credit for the fact that I've had

(42:12):
conversations like this while in relationships wheremyself and a guy friend mock like that
that whole thing where it's like,you're crying about this and I love I
do love the Dirty Dozen. Andwhen he's saying there's like but Jim Brown's
running through He's throwing the grenades downthe pace, I'm like, yeah,
yeah, that is a pretty coolscene. But I'm like, I love

(42:35):
yeah, stop it. That isactually very funny. That feels like a
conversation pulled from real life. That'sthe sort of thing where I think Efron
as a writer can excel is whenshe pulls that stuff from real life,
or or her co writers or whomever. This this might hurt that epiphany that

(42:57):
you had, because some say thatthis was revised on the take, this
discussion of The Dirty Dozen. Iwish you hadn't told me that. I
mean, but even if it wasimprovised, it very much could have come
from one of the actors having aconversation like this in their real life,
like it's absolutely it's it's so real, like, well, it doesn't feel

(43:22):
out of place. And you givethe director credit for letting the actors contribute
something of worth and saying instead ofbeing like, um, you know in
Rushmore, they're my words. Youknow, you messed with my script saying
oh that was good, we'll keepthat. So that that is a good

(43:42):
thing. Yeah, that that.I think. There's the thing that I
really love about this movie is that, to me, there's so many of
those scenes. There's so many ofthose moments. I didn't even watch this
in preparation for this podcast, becauseI watched it that not that long ago,
just out of pure enjoyment, andI like, the whole thing is
just burned across my brain. Andso like, there's there's so many moments

(44:06):
there's there's just little little moments likewith Jonah playing with a lobster and Sam's
like stepped stepping and then he turnswayne he continues to do it, Or
when the babysitter is with Jonah andthen Sam starts come down the stairs and
the babysitter kind of like kicks Jonahand Jonah picks up the controller and changes
the channel because they're clearly watching somethingthat they're not supposed to be watching.

(44:30):
Or when Sam is waiting in therestaurant and he's building like he's doing a
little building out of sugarcue because he'san architect, you know. I think
those are the That's what really makesthis movie to me is these little little
moments as we move on, Imean, I should say, like as
as as I think back on thismovie, now, one thing that really

(44:54):
struck out stuck out to me wasthe use of popular music. And I
think I think about the score sometimesand I do remember the score, but
the thing that really sticks out tome is the music that they used,
like you know, Hairicnick Junior,and I'm blinking on other names, but

(45:15):
to me, like when Sam iswalking out on the on the on the
dock and Annie is looking out atthe at the sky and we hear Blackbird
playing and it's just like they arenot shying away from the song, like
this song makes the moment. AndJohn, you often ask us about the

(45:37):
music, and so I wanted toask you, like, did the score
stand out to you at all?We don't even have to talk about it
if you don't want to What didyou think about the use of popular music
in this movie? Did you thinkit it made made it meaningful? You
were you bland to it? Talkto me, I thought it was fine.
There wasn't anything see Here's this iswhat's really strange and difficult to me,

(46:01):
because it's one of those things wheremaybe there's some extra textual knowledge that's
coloring my perception of it. Butby this point Tarantino's on the scene,
right, and so in a sensethat like when Harry met Sally, there's
there's a use, there's an adaptationaspect to the music that that works really

(46:22):
well with this. I don't thinkit works as well. I don't think
it's bad, but it's not.It's not that next level sort of thing.
I think that the song choices arefine, but it feels a little
too conscious. It doesn't feel asorganic. I guess it feels like a

(46:43):
nineties romantic comedy which has like thisis what you do? You have music
interjected, not all the time,but like it's not anything new, it's
done well. It feels a littletoo self aware, not like in an
overbearing way, but it feels alittle too conscious, like that there's there's

(47:06):
something where you know, you canwatch a movie and a song plays and
you're like, yep, that Idon't see where It's like when you cast
the right person, you're like,I don't see anything else that could play
in that. But there's there's acertain aspect to this score where it's like,
yeah, I mean, it works, and there's nothing that doesn't work.

(47:27):
But there's nothing that I think isspectacular about the musical choices. That's
my take. That's just my take, Darren. Do you echo that?
Yeah? I think just like Isaid, you know, it feels like
a nineties rom com formula, notin a negative way, just not like

(47:47):
oh man, just whoa. Whatthey did with the music, it like
just took it to the another level. I didn't know romantic comedies could be
like that. No, it's notthat, it's not that it's it's good.
It's it's well used. And Ithink, just like quotes in a
comedy, you know, like whenI hear you know is it? And

(48:13):
when I faone no, which isthe last the last song? Make someone
happy now here? I always thinkof this movie when I hear that song.
It is linked. And usually you'llhave like one or two songs that
are just linked to a movie insuch a way that you will instantly think
of it. So I think ifit does that, then it's doing its
job. So before we you haveit on vinyl and laser. Now we

(48:36):
know all of that, Tristan,you know, I wish I had this
on vinyl. We did have thecassette tape though we had we had the
cassette soundtrack of this and we wouldcrank Blackbird full volume. Oh my mom
would just like stomp her feet andjust like really get into it. So
one thing that we haven't mentioned beforewe give our ratings, we did not

(49:00):
mention that the previous director that wespent so many weeks talking about has It's
not a cameo, like, he'sstraight up supporting character in this movie.
What did you guys think about seeingReyner again in front of the camera.
Did you think it was a goodfriendship with Tom? Do you think he
added something like specifically with that conversationwhen he says, Tira messiou that is

(49:24):
the thing I remember from the adcampaign, Tira messiou became a thing after
this movie, And I yeah,I remember Tira messiou becoming a thing after
this movie. And at least inmy section of the world, it wasn't
a thing before this movie, butafter this movie, Tira Messou was a

(49:45):
thing. And then when I foundout what Tierra Messou was, I was
like, oh cool, okay,that's fine, And everybody felt the need
to order it on their first datesand all of those sorts of things for
a time afterward. Um. Butall that to say, Rob Reiner has

(50:07):
just an easy on screen comic persona, and I think that you could put
him in any scene and it's fineas long as you put him as the
right character. He's not gonna playas Jonah for instance, I can't.
I can, but like he's not. He wouldn't have worked at want you

(50:28):
to get another wife? Else you'reI want you to move out? So
son, how have you balded already? Like That's what I'm unclear on.
But I think that, um,like, he wouldn't have worked his Walt.
He know he works in this rolethough, and I think that he's
funny in this role, and soI I enjoy seeing Ryan. It's always

(50:52):
been Walter, even as Mother's right, everybody calls him Walter. That's right.
I honestly, I had to doubletake him, like, wait,
who's Walt? Oh, Walter muchmore interesting if Walter was Walter White.
And then the movie she takes ona whole other dimension. So so,
all right, so here we go. We're We're, We're, We're here.

(51:16):
We've we've We've had our discussion,We've had our highs, we've had
our lows, we've had our songcues or meat cutes and everything in between.
And Darren, I'm gonna go withyou first. How many uh letters
of neurotic fan mail are you?Are you giving this piece this time?

(51:39):
Yeah, it's I almost feel likeI'm like the counter to Tristan's family watching
it every third Thursday on at atthe Ridell House. But because there's some
things that are hard for me toget. Like Annie's plot is batshit crazy,
like she she literally like like Idon't think I've ever heard Derek cuss

(52:07):
before. This is the greatest thingin the world. But we always have
to laughs at the end of thepodcast. That's what we got to do
now. But no, like seriously, when she she travels there, tracks
him down, watches him leave withhis son in the boat that follows in
the car, it's like I jokeabout that all the time with my with

(52:29):
my wife. Yeah, you're lookingfor if you switch the genders, Oh
my gosh, if the dude doingthis, this is a horror movie.
You put a little bit of likelike you know, a little scary like
trail you know, trail music inthe background. You're like at night,
you know, it's like sundown iscoming, you know, she's check check,

(52:51):
like like it's just shy of her. When he leaves in the boat,
going into his house while he's notthere and like sniffing his owls,
like it's just shy of that.But when she's standing in the in the
road and I'm like, what areyou doing? Like what is going I
was thinking, because again I couldn'tquite remember the whole plot, So I'm

(53:12):
like, is she gonna get hitand then be in the hospital and that's
what they're gonna meet, because likethat wouldn't be kind of interesting, But
no, sad they say hello,yeah, and then she leaves and then
the next shot she's back in Baltimorewith her friend and I'm like, so
like twelve hours later, cut tothe big shot and I'm like, what
what is going on here? Soyeah, man, this is why my

(53:37):
show five percent? No. Yeah, if I was a movie executive at
this time, I would have beenlike, I mean, I'm sure that
wasn't in the script that was beingpresented at the moment, because I know
it had gone through four or fiveit went to a lot of revisions,
which is amazing that it landed onthe box offices that it was, because
it sounds like this movie very easilycould have not been a classic, could

(54:00):
not have been good. And whatwas the return? Do you remember it
was? So it's like a twentymill budget with like a two twenty return,
like two hundred twenty million, sothat's a lot. It made a
lot of money and all those I'mglad that you brought that up there.
I'm not just the money, butlike the whole stalkish thing, and if

(54:21):
you switch the genders, it becomesa horror movie. I think that's the
thing is that if it if itwas somebody else, like I don't know,
let me come up with a name, just out of the blue.
If it was like a Sharon Stonetype of person, you know, like
this person could this easily could havebeen a horror film or like Stokrish or
Fatal attraction or something makes you thinkof like Double Jeopardy, you know where,

(54:45):
like she now she could do whatYes, well, the point being
in in the in Double Jeopardy,she's the short ridgeon. She's accused of
something. She goes to geology,she does her time, and the point
is she can't be re I didfor the same thing that she's already served
for. So she basically has ablank check to do whatever she wants and
be super creepy about it anyway.Yeah, so Annie, I'm like,

(55:08):
you get what I'm saying, likebecause ye, like Meg Ryan makes this
Okay, it works, I thinkagain it maybe it's one of those movies
that on paper does not work ormakes sense at all, and they just
happen to capture that magic by HookerCrook because yeah, she her, I

(55:30):
get the whole Like I'm not.I'm searching for love. Honestly. The
only thing that makes it even payoffis when Hank sees her for the first
time. It has sparks. Ifthere wasn't that shot, I would have
been like, you are a randomlady who listened on the radio and is

(55:50):
interjecting yourself into this guy. Likebut because he's kind of reciprocating, and
he's and she's becoming. It's basicallythe little Mermaid. It's like she sees
him, he sees her, buthe doesn't recognize who it is, and
then they sees her later and he'skind of has this like connection. Anyway,
Anyway, I'm not gonna swear anymore. But so I can't give it

(56:12):
more more than a three. Likeagain, not that is not a good
movie, but it is. Thereare way better rom coms, way better
comedies for me that I would ratherpop in than Sleepless in Seattle. So
I'm giving it three three stars acrossthe American sky. So, John,

(56:36):
how many youthful acronyms are you givingthis film? Now? I want to
go back to last week when wewere talking about romantic comedies and how I
said, I'm very trepidacious about goinginto them because I when I love a
romantic comedy, I love a romanticcomedy. And when I don't, I
really don't. I I have ahard time because it's very easy for me

(57:00):
not to love a romantic comedy becauseof certain factors that go in. There
is a part of me that hatedthis movie, and it is because at
the core of it, A persondoesn't matter whether it's a woman or a
man. Okay, a person decidesto throw away everything. Based on the

(57:28):
drive between Baltimore and DC that I'vemade many times in my life. Never
man has to fall in love witha stranger one time on that drive,
and I think that becomes the firsthurdle for me. I don't think that
Walter is a necessary factor in thestory, and so the time with him

(57:52):
feels a little bit wasted. Idon't feel the chemistry. There are moments
that I enjoy. To your point, Tristan, about Rob Reiner, I
think that his scenes are good.I laughed during his scenes. I think
that there are specific moments that workwith Hanks and the kid. I don't.

(58:14):
I don't care for really any ofthe scenes between Meg Ryan and Rosey
o'donald. I don't. I've neverquite gotten Rosey o'donald's career in the sense
that like anything I've seen her inhas ever really like made me look at
it. And now I've never seena league of her their own, which
is the point at which where everybodyrolls their eyes and goes, what are

(58:36):
you kidding me? But Rosey o'donallleven as a stand up comic. I
was like, yeah, yeah,okay, and she doesn't do a bad
job here, But just like Jonah, I don't think the script does her
any favors. So and I thinkprimarily informed by the idea that I don't

(58:59):
want to be too harsh because I'ma curmudgeonly old square and this is maybe
I didn't see this at the righttime or something like that, And I
just really don't care for the waythat Meg Ryan emotionally abandons her fiance for
no discernibly good reason. Despite myinstincts to rank it even lower, I'm

(59:24):
going to give it a two becauseI'm feeling generous today. So that's a
two. Yeah, dealing with olddead inside men lord, because you're younger
than both of us, tristed bya little listen, you know. Like

(59:45):
that's the thing is, like,I'm sure there are plenty of people who
love this film. Two and twentyseven million dollars worth of people love this
film. Back in nineteen ninety three, I wouldn't have been one of them.
I'm just saying, like I canremember me in nineteen ninety three,
this would have been a one starI'm being generous today, so I'm giving

(01:00:06):
it it too. Oh man,I was not expecting this kind of conversation
tonight, boys. I have tobe honest. I thought it was going
to be much more cordial and alot less swearing. I'm looking at you,
Darren ding Well. I mean obviously, I mean, like I've talked
about what works, I've hinted atwhat I will say could have been done

(01:00:30):
differently. I will not relent andsay what doesn't work. But this is
this is not just a trickle ofnostalgia for me. This is not just
putting on rose colored glasses. Thisis me jumping into a rose colored tub,
you know, like in the Abyss, where I can breathe the liquid.

(01:00:52):
Like that's the kind of nostalgia Ihave for this movie. Like I,
like I said, I have everymoment moment memorized. There's just little
moments all through out that that justcreep into my brain at random moments.
And I think this is a Ithink this is a wonderful romantic comedy.
I think this is extremely funny.I think it's extremely heartwarming, and like,

(01:01:14):
regardless of its monetary gains, thisis on a lot of top ten
and top one hundred lists. Whenit comes to movies that you should see
before you die and for comedy andromance and everything like that, these are
not a lot of lists. I'mnot the only one in that in that
regard, thankfully, however, Iam the only one in this podcast.

(01:01:34):
And so I give this an unabashedfive stars. And because I think this
is firing on all cylinders when itcomes to the cast, the writing,
the direction, the music, everythingabout it. I think the only thing
that's WHA could do is the premise. But I feel like Meg Ryan goes
out of her way to make itokay. And so what did I give

(01:01:58):
when Harry met Sally Darren? Whatdid I give that? You gave that
four point five? So, yep, that sounds right, sticking to it.
When Harry Mazelli is four point five, this is five stars. So,
John, if you can resuscitate yourblack Heart by season enough to tell

(01:02:20):
us what we're doing next week?Can you can you tell us what's what's
up next week? We're going togive Nora Ephron another chance at romance,
and that's gonna be You've got mailfrom nineteen ninety eight. Join the Revolution,
Join the nerd Party,