March 27, 2025 • 52 mins
"Before Sunset," directed by Richard Linklater, is a remarkable film that beautifully captures the complexities of love, time, and the human experience. As the second installment in Linklater's "Before" trilogy, this film goes beyond the typical romantic narrative, offering a profound exploration of connection and the passage of time.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to house Lights, specifically the House of Link Later,
or at least we're building a small addition. Maybe this
is a summer house of Link later, or like a
guesthouse of Link later out in the backyard. That's what
he's in the Cato Calin suite of house lights, and
we are house Lights, and we are bringing you this
look at two thousand and four's before sunset, not before sunrise,
(00:44):
before sunset, a lot of time of day shift here
are going on. And I am joined by two wonderful conversationalists,
Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser, and me I'm the grumpy
man smoking a cigarette behind them in a Parisian cafe,
John Mills, and we are delighted to have you along
here for what could be considered the Empire strikes Back
(01:05):
of Romantic film trilogies. Or is it. I don't know.
We'll find out because it's Darren's first time seeing it.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Bold words, How you got shn bold words?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
There you go? There you go. And Tristan and I
we have witnessed the journey with before sunset previously. And
I'm going to do two things right here before I
kick it to Darren, because Darren, since you're the newbie
with viewing these films, obviously it's going to get kicked
over to you. But the first thing I want to
say is that we will minimize as three married men
(01:38):
with children, exactly how terrible Ethan Hawk really is for
what he does in this film, for Jesse as a character,
because you know, look, it's a movie. We're not going
to get too deep in the real world stuff. So
we'll save that, we'll table it, we'll walk away. We'll
all say I don't think any of the three of
us would have done the same thing, and leave it
at that. So Darren, this is your first time here,
(01:59):
and you went into Before Sunrise Cold and you're coming
into Before Sunset. You know there's a third movie coming in,
so there's a little bit of a spoiler there. This
was a bit of a surprise, I guess, and Ethan
Hawk's own words, nobody asked them to make this movie.
They did it because they wanted to. First impression coming
in when the movie starts, not the whole film, but
(02:22):
the movie stars first couple of minutes was your sense
of good we're coming back, and this feels authentic again
or was it? Did it take more time to warm
up to you, to get you to come back into
the story.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Uh, No, it slid right back in, primarily because I mean,
this movie's only eighty minutes, so you say the first
few minutes, like that's a good chunk of the movie. Anyway,
it is a percentage yes, and yeah, pretty much right away.
You know, we're setting up the bookstore and the signing,
and you can tell he wrote about, you know, the
previous movie, which I just watched last week, so I'm
(02:56):
all caught up. And then and then he sees her,
and that's really the moment of like, oh, she's here,
she's in she's she's actually here in front of me.
And then we start like a single shot of them
walking throughout the rest of the movie. I know they're cuts,
but it feels very singular focused from then on. So yeah,
I didn't know was this going to be the six
(03:19):
months later when they got together? Uh, And it wasn't.
It's been real time ish, it's been at least a
decade or so. He's got nine years nine years. Yeah,
so he has a little kid, and we'll talk about marriage. Yeah,
a little later about that. But yeah, it it's interesting
where on its surface, I think this was a worthy
(03:42):
story to tell, but it also had aspects of checking
the boxes, like did we find out who actually went
six months later?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
We did, check, you know, did we find out, you know,
if they actually slept together?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Check?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
You know, like kind of those those questions that bubble
up from the end of the first one. We answered
all those. So maybe that's what sequels are supposed to do.
But we still were left on a little bit of
a cliffhanger. So yeah, I didn't know really what to expect.
But this was a great helping of this particular story.
This is a very interesting concept of diving back in
(04:19):
every ten or so years.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So were you surprised by the disposition of the characters?
Was there was it surprising that Jesse was married? Was
it surprising that she didn't show but he did? Were
there were there any surprises along the way that you
didn't see? Telegraphs in any way, or rather a better
way to say it, that that truly took an unexpected
turn for you, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Not particularly, it's hard. I mean, do you mean telegraph
throughout this movie? Or tell you no, I don't movie
Telegraph was bad. That's why I was trying to like
walk that back. Was like, were there any story points?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Though? Sometimes you watch a movie and it's going along
and a character says something or does something and you go, oh,
I didn't. I didn't see that. And it seemed a surprise,
Like was it a surprise that Jesse actually went back
six months later and has sort of been nursing that
ache ever since. Was it a surprise that he was married?
Was it a surprise that Celine wasn't.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I don't think surprise is the right word, because again,
there's no there's very little frame of reference for this
story except for the one night they've had, so I
I kind of have no expectations. The thing that surprised
me the most was there.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
What's the word?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
They're kind of joking mannerisms of false truths and haha,
just kiddings, which very much we saw on the first one,
especially with with Ease and Hawk's character. Will He'll be like, oh, yeah,
I'm married, Oh just kidding. Oh, but we actually I
actually did show up. No, I didn't, And I started
it started almost great where I'm like, can we just
(05:52):
say what we mean instead of because I'm pretty sure
every time you talk you are speaking the truth. But
I'm starting to wonder because they're popping in more and
more as this story is unfolding. So yeah, it you know,
like even for her, she was like, oh, yeah, I
totally remember us having sex, even though for a chunk
of the movie She's like, no, we didn't, and I'm
(06:13):
like okay. So it felt like that was a through
thread from the first movie of this way they communicate
with kind of jokes and yeah, I'm I'm just kidding
in backtracks, which was an interesting thing to bring through, Like,
I wasn't expecting that, so that was kind of the
only surprise I got Atrician. That's an interesting thread to
(06:34):
pull on there is do you think that the casual
dishonesty that the characters have with each other at certain moments,
do you think that that adds any layer of realism
to two people who are trying to figure out each
other again after I mean, they were only together for
one night and they spend roughly an hour and a
half together here. Do you think that casual dishonesty is
(06:56):
more authentic because they're being more defensive, or do you
think that it's you know, is it just something we're
used to people stating their feelings more plainly in film.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
It's like that makes me angry, right, No, I totally
get what Darren is saying. And Darren, I think if
I saw this for the first time after watching the
first one for the first time, I would probably feel
more like you do now, because I think you have
a solid point. But for me, I think like, if
you look at the first one, if you look at Sunrise,
(07:28):
they spent all night together walking around, having several different
kinds of conversations. They got to know each other over
the course of what you know, like twelve hours something
like that, and with this one, it's just ninety minutes,
and it's after nine years of an adult's lifetime is
a very long time. And so to me, I think
it's the like Sunrise was an experiment for both of them,
(07:52):
Like they both went into it with complete honesty, Like
you could tell that they were having that moment where like,
I have a real connection with this person, and so
why would I bs my way through a conversation just
trying to get him into bed or like putting on
like a persona just to like show how cool you are.
Like this one was just the first one was brute
(08:14):
and honesty, and this one there was there's much more trepidation.
There was much more like where are we? What is this?
Who are we to each other? Are we in love?
Were we ever in love? Like we got a lot
of baggage coming into this, and so I feel like
we get a peek into Jesse's defense mechanism where he
(08:34):
wants to be that brutally honest person that he was
in the nineties in Vienna, you know, so much so
that he wrote about it, and he's worried, Like he's like, oh, man,
I wrote a book about this, and now I'm with you,
and you know, I wrote a book about it, and
I wrote a book about it so that you read
it and maybe reach out to me, and so you know,
I'm taking this very seriously. But he has no idea
(08:57):
if she's taking it as seriously as he is. And
so I feel like that, like, oh, yeah, no, totally,
I'm married. Haha. I'm just kidding. It's fine, you know,
Like it's I think it's it's a much older Jesse,
but I don't think it's necessarily a more mature Jesse.
And I think he's trying to figure things out with
with Selene. That's how I took it.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, I mean that that's I think a question that
I think is there throughout the film, is this idea
that they I'll throw this out on the floor. I
take a lot of this, and just from my first viewing,
this viewing other viewings that in a sense, their experiment
in Before Sunrise kind of ruined them for the next
(09:42):
stage of their life because it left them with and
the fact that they never got together again in that
time period. They didn't meet that six months later. That's
what ruined them, because they never had a reason not to,
like unresolved love, idealize, fedish and romanticize what had happened
(10:03):
that night. They are left to stew on it. And
I think that's a very honest sort of thing to
look at, how human beings can take a moment in
time and idealize it and make it so much in
their mind like it's a very special night, it's a
great night. But they obviously both never really moved on
(10:24):
from it, and I think that is what makes a
lot of it very interesting because you see this, I
think with Jesse, what's interesting about his character in this film,
is you see that he became the cynic he never
wanted to be. Why did I get married? Well, she
got pregnant, so I'm supposed to get married and I didn't.
(10:45):
You know, This isn't what he wanted his life to be.
And so he's having his midlife crisis basically, and the
book is an attempt to exercise that demon while at
the same time tempting fate to take him back there
again sort of thing. And I mean, Darren, just to
go with that, do you think that there is something
true about the human condition, about the the predilection that
(11:09):
people have for romanticizing the past, like glossing over it
and looking at it. Do you think that that is
the core truth of this movie or do you think
that it's getting in another message?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
No, I can see that. I think. Yeah, for these
two characters, them not meeting six months later totally mess
them up. But it's an interesting thing with this story
because yeah, like you said, they're slowly revealing to each
other over these eighty minutes. They're very guarded as they're
releasing little bits of information like Oh, I am married,
(11:42):
Oh I have a kid, Oh but we're not happy. Oh,
but I'm married too, but he's always away and they're
only really real with each other at the very end.
I would almost rather I know this changes the whole story,
but I which Almos rather have had it been they
(12:02):
have this super spark of a moment when they first
see each other, and we get more of that total honesty.
It's almost like they're so if. In the very beginning
they're both like, hey, what if we just changed our
lives to be together? And then the rest of the
movie is about why would or wouldn't that work? As
the other dominoes fall into place as they're picking up
(12:24):
the rest of their life of how you can't just
unspool a life that you've already lived. But instead we
get that moment and I'm not saying it's wrong. We
just get that moment at the end of this segment
as we're slowly building of like, well, what's going to
happen now? And obviously we'll find that out in a decade,
But I know that completely changes the premise of this movie,
(12:47):
but it's an interesting thought of I want to see
that conversation. I want to see them being like, well,
we could get a place together, but I want to
see my son. Oh, and there's so many good stories
that are told with I want to do this, but this,
and then we could do this, but that, Like that
ebb and flow of narrative structure. I want to see
(13:08):
these two characters kind of battle it out in their
minds of trying to make this relationship work.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But that's obviously not what we get.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
We get that that is the conversation that could happen
after the credits roll, but instead it's you know, the
guarded tidbits of life. And then there's some parts of
it that starts to stew of feeling like a movie
as so far as like, yeah, we aren't liking Jesse.
Jesse's kind of you know, why is he kind of
(13:39):
going down this road and he's like a married person
with a kid, And then they throw in that line
of oh, but we're not happy and I don't really
love her like I should love her, and it totally
feels like, oh, we put this in here so that
you emotionally as a viewer have a little bit of
an out to kind of like Jesse again, Oh but
they're not happy. So everything he's contemplating and doing right
(14:03):
now is a different lens.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I know we're you know, no, I think no, no,
I think that's very fair. Tristy, you go ahead, Well,
I think that is absolutely fair. I think that it's
one hundred percent what they were doing. Yeah, but at
the same at the same token, you know, a person
who is happy in his marriage, someone who is very
much in love and loves his spouse and has a
(14:29):
happy life with a happy child and a happy home
and a happy fence, all those kind of things wouldn't
be having this kind of conversation with another woman anyway,
regardless of how great a past event was. Like say that,
say that I all of a sudden like, no, but
I don't. I don't have a Selene in my life, you.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Know, like so like I so like if I ran
into like I don't know someone who had an amazing
day with or an amazing date with someone that was
just like really passionate we were going to meet together
and everything like that, Like say, but I was happily married,
you know, I wouldn't be. There wouldn't be any tension there,
we wouldn't have a drama. It would be like, oh,
it's nice to meet you. I'm glad, we're reconnecting. You know,
(15:13):
it would be boring, It would be boring. But to
have the character of Jesse be in a crap marriage
and have him repeat the mistakes of his own parents
of getting pregnant, having to get married, feeling like you
have to get married, and then you know, like flirting
with divorce and everything like that, Like that allows this
movie to happen. That allows this conversation to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It does they do to be fair, it's not just
a one line. He talks about the fact that they've
been to marriage counseling, he's tried to do all of
these things. But we are only getting Jesse's perspective in
that moment, which there's there's all of those sorts of
layers that go along with it. I think that it's
it's an interesting lens on a When I was saying
(15:55):
this earlier, it's an interesting lens on a midlife crisis
sort of guy who is realizing that life is about
obligation and commitments that you've made sometimes and everybody can
agree on that sort of thing, like they're you know,
I don't you know, do you want to work forty
two eighty hours a week? No, I do not however,
(16:16):
I must and those sorts of things. That's just part
of life. I mean, if anything, Jesse's in the catbird
seat because he's an author who's traveling the globe promoting
a book that's a best seller in the United States.
It's kind of like it'd be very easy for somebody
to look at that and be like, bro, what do
you what do you complain about your Your life's okay
compared to the average person in the world. You know,
it's not so bad, but people will see and I
(16:37):
think he acknowledges this at one point. But like my
big question then is Darren, at what point during all
of their conversation do you first pick up that Jesse
is realizing that he's still in love with Selene because
he is defensive at first. At what point do you
see Jesse crack And it's not necessarily that he says
(17:01):
anything to her, it's that he is there something that
in Hawk's mannerisms or in a look that he gives
that says to you, oh, he's figuring out he is
still in love with her.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, I would say when he takes her phone to
call at the driver, because by that point he is
then starting to elongate the time together. And this movie
does it really great where it's like and then I'm
gonna oh, and then we'll take a cab and then
I'll walk you to your door, and then we'll have
some tea. And it's like you could tell he's you know,
(17:34):
he has no intent. By the end, you're like, oh,
he has no intention of catching that plane, like he
wants to continue this time together. So I in my
head canon, he sent himself a text from her phone
as soon as he was given her phone because he
was never going to lose the ability to contact her again.
We don't show that, and we don't see that. It's
not elluded at all. But I'm like, I was in
(17:57):
this weird situation, like I would not risk that at all.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
But so that's my moment.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I would say, but I do want to give credit
to the story. This is a good story being told.
If the story had been oh, yeah, neither of us
are married and we don't have kids, and we both
have jobs that let us travel and we actually live
in the same country, and oh I just happened to
not run into you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's boring.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
That's then it's basically the December meetup just nine years later,
but instead having life, having lived and roots put down,
and you notice these kind of few moments that they
could have maybe by chance, have had seen each other.
But yeah, it's a very interesting tale. But yeah, so
(18:43):
I that's my hit canon. All to say is that
as he starts to elongate their time together and starts
to consider his next steps, especially.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
With the phone, Tristan, where do you see it?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Well, actually, one thing I do want to talk about,
if I if I could shift gears just a little.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Bit, sure is Darren? Are we gonna let the shift?
Gears said?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, totally shiftift heres mid sentence all the time. What
you're talk about? That?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
All right? Well we'll both.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I think it is fine because we you know, we're
ragging on Jesse a lot, which is fine. He deserves
to be ragged on. There was one moment in particular
where they're running around and then he sits down on
a bench and then like grabs her and then makes
her sit on his lap, and I'm like, how old
are you? Like when I was when I was watching,
(19:30):
like watching that in two thousand and three, I was
in high school and I was like, I don't even
know if I could get away with that, like as
a high schooler as it was like seventeen or eighteen.
But it's just I think it just gave a peek
into them, like a portion of the immaturity of Jesse.
But at the same token, I think if you look
at Selene, you know, like there there are times when
(19:51):
she's not the same person either that she was in Vienna.
You know, like she she's lived life too, like she's
she's gone in you know, when she was talking about
trying to get pencils, or when she was talking about
the cop you know, saying that she needed to buy
a gun, which was a true story by the way,
that actually happened to Julie Delpy, the whole cop and
a gun thing. It just like you can tell that
she she gets angrier. She you know, I don't want
(20:13):
to say flies off the handle, but like she she
gets she gets bigger in her emotions than she did
in the nineties. Like in the nineties it was just
kind she was just kind of wry and you know,
sardonic and things like that. Here, like you can see
that she has legitimate frustrations anger that kind of have
amplified over the past nine years. And so they both
have lived, they both have changed, and so they're both
(20:33):
asking each other that question of do I want to
be with this person? You know, Selene is asking the question.
He's married, he has a kid, so he's off limits.
But then as he keeps talking, she's like, does he
not think he's off limits to me? You know? And
he's questioning his entire life, saying like she's off limits
because I'm married. But what if I leave her? You know,
what if I leave her, I'll take Henry with me.
(20:55):
You know, I'll figure it out. I'll get a good lawyer.
You can tell you can see the wheels spinning in
his head. But then, like there are certain times when
he's just kind of like, you know, like he kind
of makes fun of her in the taxi cab talking
about how she got crazy. There was some truth in
that joke. To him, I'm saying, and from his perspective,
I'm not saying that she is crazy. I'm saying that
like for a guy to make that joke, it's usually
because there's a kernel of truth to it. So John,
(21:17):
I wanted to know, Like Darren, you talked about how
you would have liked to have seen a movie where
they talked about how they would get together. I think
we watched that movie personally. I feel like we saw
that kind of develop over the course of the entire movie.
It just wasn't explicit in my opinion. And John, I
want to know from your perspective, do you feel like
you got a good look at the inner workings of
(21:37):
their minds or was it really just Jesse we got
to see frustrated, or like, what.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Do you know? No, I'll just jump right in there.
I think we did get a good glimpse at their minds.
I'll answer a couple of things here where For me,
I think Jesse realizes he's still in love with her
when they sit down in the cafe and the conversation
it's as if they never stopped. They just that's the
moment at which the conversation becomes comfortable again. And I
(22:04):
think is specifically in that scene. If you look at
the way that it is edited, it spends a lot
of time focused on Jesse's facial reactions to her talking,
and I think that's a conscious choice to show Jesse.
We get to see his face soften and his eyes
brighten a little bit as he realizes, oh, we do
(22:25):
still have a thing. It was an authentic thing that
happened back like it's almost like a validation of his
idealization of the night. But I think we did see
the inner workings of both of these people and Tristan.
I think it's something where there's a point in their
conversation where they talk about whether people change over time,
and Jesse says something along the lines of there are
(22:48):
certain guide points to a personality, and he talks about
people winning the lottery and suffering a terrible physical accident.
He says, and that after six months they essentially revert
back to the type of person they always were.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And I thought that was a real study, by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And he cites that, and I think that's there. You know,
that's their way of saying, these are the same basic
people and so we have seen them. They're allowing us
just to pick up and understand that. And I think
the complicated thing is I have a very I typically
have a real dislike of movies that indulge making it
(23:27):
okay to break a trust like a marriage. But I
think that what's really deft about the way this movie
is put together and the way that it's performed. Is
it's the same type of ror shark test At the end,
do you presume that they immediately have a passionate love
making session or is this just when the credits roll
(23:49):
the conversation continues and they don't necessarily do that. Maybe
they do, maybe they don't, but it continues along the
lines where they then have it, Like I think it's
what you're talking about, Darren. Where at the end do
you believe that the conversation continued and then they had
the deeper mechanics of it. Look, this is obviously working.
I need to leave, you know, Jesse saying I need
(24:11):
to leave my wife no matter what. It doesn't matter
whether we're together or not. You've made me realize the
type of love I need in my life. And she, conversely,
can say I suddenly realized that I need some sort
of way to express myself openly. Because what we learned
through the course of this is she doesn't feel the
ability to express herself as openly to another human being
(24:35):
the way that she does to Jesse. It's not that
she needs another person, she says herself, I'm an independent,
strong woman. I don't need somebody else. But we can
see her obviously feel better about having somebody she can
at least speak to openly and honestly. All of that
said Darren, as they go along, have we been glancing
over one of the more poignant questions, which is how
(25:00):
how did the driver get out of the driveway that
had the bar on it? Because this jerk of affair
of his went upstairs and left him stuck in a
dead end that he would have had to back out
of and didn't seem like it was an easy thing.
Is that the worst crime emotionally of the movie.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Emotionally, man, I don't really have any answer for that.
I was just reading about Ethan Hawk's divorce, so let's
bring that up for a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Just Yeah, he got a divorce from um with herman, Yeah,
which he.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Wrote about in a fictional account called Light in the
Darkness or something like that. I cannot remember exactly, and it's.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
It was right before this movie was made, I believe.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yeah, he cheated on her before the movie was made,
and then she found out about it after the movie
was made and filed for divorce. He screwed up royally, Yes, yes,
he did, hardcore screwed up, And like the book that
he wrote about it. He does not pull any punches
on like on the like the fictional character that's going
(25:57):
through what he went through is very much portray as
one of the biggest idiots in the world, rightfully, So.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, you know, it's but the thing is this fine.
This found a lot of resonance with critics. This was
embraced very warmly. You know, Tristan, we're we're sitting here
and you know, sort of tongue in cheek at certain points,
we've we've been ragging on Jesse and stuff like that.
But there was a very warm reception that people had
(26:23):
to this film, and some people received it more warmly
even than the first. So obviously there's something about this
that works for everyone. Even though we're often told you
can't have a movie just with two people talking to
each other. They have to be doing things and stuff
has to happen, and it's it's really a vibe movie
in a lot of ways. So in terms of that resonance, though,
(26:47):
is there an aspect of this film that you think
is in any way experimental, that is, anything that is
unexpected in the way that it is shot or put together.
Because basically, obviously everybody loves the performances and everything. I'm
just trying to get at. Do you see anything that
would make somebody react to this and say, oh, this
(27:08):
is so fresh and different the way they're approaching, the
way it's put together.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
No, I wouldn't really say that it's fresh or different
or anything like that. I'd say it's classic indie, you know,
it's something that we saw a lot of in the nineties,
Like it's a successor to something that existed in the nineties,
that thrived in the nineties, and this is that type
of indie film where that's all you need. It's conversation based.
I feel like there are more movies exist like this
(27:34):
than don't, and I think they just don't get publicized.
They don't they the award circuit. They don't have Ethan
Hawk and Julie Delpy and Link letter as a driving
force behind them, and I think that definitely helps in
this situation. So no, I wouldn't say this no opposite
of experimental. This is very mainstream in terms of how
it approaches a story, Like even though it's just two
(27:54):
people talking, it has a very clear defined beginning, middle,
and end and chopped up basically in the thirty minute
increments of first meeting, getting comfortable and just letting loose
and like pouring out emotionally.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And wait, so that means so, John, you would rather
they chop this into three episodes streamed and then you
watch them in like.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Back to back. But yeah, no, yeah, this should be
released on Disney Plus's three separate episodes half hour episodes
then that I could watch out of sequence if I.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Want to two Deep fade to black in the middle.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
No, they absolutely would be wonderful, you know, But Tristan,
you know, I agree with you. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking
with the photography or anything like that. Do you think, though,
that it advances any of the visual language of the
first one? Do you see a more refined link later
in Daniels.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think it absolutely It does something different where, you know,
like in the first one, it takes the course over
twelve hours and it's very voyeuristic and you feel like
a tourist and in a good way. And with this one,
it almost takes place in real time, pretty much in
real time, Like ninety minutes of the movie is ninety
(29:07):
minutes in real life, which is crazy. And it was
all shot in the afternoon because they had to shoot
it in the afternoon, like everything was in that magical
glow glowy yellow and orange and everything like that, and
that was a challenge, but they did it in fifteen days.
They shot all of this in fifteen days, only shooting
in the afternoons. That's awesome, And that means that they
(29:28):
had nothing but preparation and practice and rehearsal time and
just like they did with the first one.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And no surprise rainstorms.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
And no surprise rainstorm and so like to me, I
feel like that in itself, that like they did, they
had less money to work with less time, but they
were able to get it done and they got If
you look on Rotten Tomatoes, I know Rotten Tomatoes isn't
a great indicator for movies that existed before Rotten Tomatoes,
but this one is up in the mid nineties for
critics as well as audience. It got a Criterion release,
(29:57):
and it's so I think that and itself advanced it.
But one thing I do want to talk about is,
you know, like we're all kind of talking about the
fact about how Jesse's married and it should be acting
like this, you know, as a married man, which is
one hundred percent truth. However, what's funny is, as audience members,
what we forgive is on screen is something that we
would never forgive in real life. How often do we
(30:20):
as audience members say out loud, why don't they just
kill him?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yes, very true. I think that is a right.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I don't be hanging here like. There's so many times
when like I will say, like, oh God, if they
just killed him, you know, like life would be easier,
And that's not something you would ever say in real life.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
The character has more morals than you do. In that moment,
you're like, but it's a movie, so it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
It doesn't matter. But the thing is, I think that
what it is is it's a basic manipulation tactic of
you know, of a filmmaker, or of a playwright, or
of anybody else who puts a dramatic work together. Is
essentially it's like arguing before a jury. We're the jury
and so the case instead of getting the case in
(31:02):
court where the lawyer has to come up and try
to say yay, yeah, yeah, okay, I understand that they
broke the rules, but you have to consider all of
this stuff that happened beforehand. You could come on and
they try to build a sympathetic case. We get the
sympathetic case first, so that when we arrive at the
point of judgment, we're predisposed to say, well, yeah, but
I know Jesse's a good person, and I know that
(31:23):
he didn't really mean it. I think he's unhappy in
his marriage. I don't want the guy to be unhappy.
I mean, he even says he doesn't want to be
fifty two and wake up and realize one day that
he's trapped in his marriage and this terrible thing. If anything,
people would say, I would argue, well, yes, he should
get out of his marriage. He's going about it the
incorrect way because he should put the cart, you know,
(31:45):
he's putting the cart before the horse here. He should
instead first go to his wife at the time and say,
I am, this is unresolvable. We need to get a
lawyer involved, we need to blah blah blah blah blah,
and whatever, you know, whatever other sort of stuff happen
go on, and we would say that is the right
way to do it. So he does it the wrong way,
but we're able to say, well, Okay, he went about
(32:06):
it wrong, but he's for him he's living his truth
and doing the right thing for him, right that sort
of thing, oh you know, I hate, I know, and
that ladies and gentlemen, is why I specifically use the
phrase because this is our walk around Paris and I
love to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Yes, well, and there's yeah, it's not the right way.
But and again it's all like I mentioned before, we
all knew that line when he's saying, oh, but I'm
not happy, Like we know why that's in there. We
know how that's meant to manipulate us as an audience,
Just like there's no scene of him having to take
(32:46):
a phone call and chat with his son who misses
him to put.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Like the story.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
You could put that in there. It could be right
in there, but there wasn't you know, that wasn't there
That his.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Cell phones were a lot harder to come by, And okay, true, true,
this is previo.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But one thing that's interesting from an audience perspective, since
we're kind of on that right now, is when you
look at it from another person's perspective, say that you
are Julie Delpy's parents, I'm sorry, Selene's parents, or say
that you are Jesse's wife or friend, or something like that,
like Selene is telling them about Jesse and about that
(33:22):
night in Vienna, Jesse is telling his wife about Selene
and that night in Vienna and everything like that, and
so they have to convince other people about the magic
of that night, but they don't have to convince us,
because there was three people there in Vienna. There was Selene,
there was Jesse, and there was us, and so they
already know we are a.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Sympathetic audience every moment we were there.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
And so the link letter knows he has us, he
knows that we're invested. Is like if you've saw before Sunrise,
you are invested in these people and you want them
to be together. So you're going to forgive a lot
of things. And that gets tested hard in the next one.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yes it does, it does.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Don't be spoiling the next one for me, guys.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
But see what with this being there are I think
one of the shots in here lasts eleven minutes, which
is that that's a long shot.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Over three days. I don't know how they did it.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
But what I what I want to say is that
I think that something that gets overlooked with this film
is the sound, because that's not easy in a you know,
a Parisian street as you're strolling through to get clean
enough sound, and so obviously there's other you know, there's
there's recording you gotta do later, there's got to you
(34:37):
to pick up stuff, and all of those sorts of things.
I think that the that there is a real accomplishment here,
that there's nothing that sounds later. Studio added, there's nothing
that sounds poorly recorded or anything like that, Like I
expect that of a film like this, especially knowing the
production history and basically it's gorilla filmmaking for them to
(34:58):
get the clean sound. I mean, I don't work in
the industry obviously, but I have seen enough movies to
say that seems like something of an accomplishment. I mean,
am I off base there?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
A good movie can do replacement without you knowing it.
And when you're doing a tracking shot like that, more
often than not it's it's fake sound. Hawk and Delpy
are wearing lapels and then you have, you know, nat
sound captured by a shotgun. Well I'm not I mean,
I know to minimize.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That, I know, I know the how, but I'm like
it for it not to sound like the authentic sound
at any point I found to be Yes, a true achievement.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Absolutely, and I'm not trying to minimize that whatsoever it is.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Is it impossible to minimizing him, Tristan.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
This is his revenge for me saying live your truth.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I couldn't place the scene, but I do remember having
a moment in watching this where I noticed the sound
in a good way where I was like, maybe she
was making tea or something was happening on the screen,
and I was like, wow, that I'm hearing exactly what
I'm expecting to hear. It's very and it didn't pull
me out. But when you mentioned that, John, it made
(36:07):
me think that I did have that moment during this
movie of just good sound.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So I I mean, I have to also say that
Julie Delpy wrote two of the three songs we hear,
including the one that plays over the credits, and I
think that they you know, I think the music was wonderful,
But this is in some ways a lot like I
would say Dog Day Afternoon, where you know, Darren, did
(36:32):
you notice the lack of soundtrack throughout the course of
the film, Like there's no like heavy musical hits or anything.
Did it or did you have any moment where you're like,
oh wait, there's there's there's no like score here, like
what wow? Okay, No, it didn't really occur to me.
But it's such a out and about natural that.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I mean, yeah, if they had maybe a little more
diagetic music of like going by someone, well, actually I
do recall in the very beginning, they don't they walk
by someone who's like playing in accordion. It's like, really
really obvious. I remember, I remember that moment. But yeah, no,
they're right, there is no score in that regard. But
I didn't think it needed it. I didn't feel like.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I agree, I agree completely, but I just think it's
sens a refresha on the waltz.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I think that, yeah, building to that, and that actually
is the music part. I think that. Not to say
that if you had music the waltz wouldn't be as impactful,
but not having music did help underscore the waltz.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I am just from one other aspect. As warmly received
as this film was, it obviously wasn't like a huge
blockbuster sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
But I however, yes, however, okay, it had a budget
of two to two point seven million, and it earned
back sixteen million.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yes, sixteen million, which so is successful.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Return of investment. It's very good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
But I'm saying that for or a film that didn't
have that sort of obviously one hundred million dollar box
office or anything like that. Do you think that part
of the charm of this movie is getting to be
a fan of it and spread the news as Sean
Eastridge from Missing Frames got to do with me where
he brought me along for this ride, And do you
(38:20):
think that part of the joy of this film is
getting to share it with people? Is this one of those, uh,
one of those movies that has found its life because
people love to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
I think it is mainly because of the first one, though,
Like I'm not going to go around and say like, hey,
have you seen Before Sunrise? And they go no, And
I'm like, well, let's watch before Sunset?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Good point. So I feel like I.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Want to say yes, but mainly because of Sunset, I
mean Sunrise.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Geez, this is hard? It does it is difficult?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Yeah, because like I was very much the person like
where I had my DVD copy of the first one
and I was walking around, I'm like, have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
No, let's watch it? Together.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Have you seen this? No, you're pretty Let's watch this.
And then I'm like, did you know that there is
a second one? Let's watch it. So it's very much
like did you like the first one, Let's watch the
second one? And so yeah. So I can't really say
this is because of it, but I do want to
ask you guys a question now that we're talking about
the first and second at the same time.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yes, it should be so old Sunrise strike back. Okay,
I'm sorry, that's just what it should be.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
This is what Roger Ebert wrote about the second one.
Before Sunrise was a remarkable celebration of the fascination of
good dialogue. But Before Sunset is better, perhaps because the
characters are older and wiser, perhaps because they have more
to lose or win, perhaps, and perhaps because Hawkendelpi wrote
the dialogue themselves. And Manola Dargas said Sunset is deeper,
(39:44):
truer work of art than the first and praised link
Letter for his filmmaking, saying it keeps faith with American
cinema at its finest. Darren, how do you feel about that?
How do you feel about Sunset compared to Sunrise in
that regard? Because this this is like, this is on
top one hundred lists. This is this this this movie
(40:06):
is beloved by critics and audiences alike. But I'm getting
the sense that you didn't like it as much as
the first one.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, I mean, not that we're getting the ratings. We're
kind of getting the ratings. I'm kind of inclined to
give this a four. Like it's still really good, but
I enjoyed Before Sunrise more. And it's I think it's
a some of its parts kind of vibe. It's not like, oh, well, yeah,
they had that scene and or I just didn't like
the story overall. It's just I like more about what
(40:37):
the first movie did in general in this one, you know,
it's a shorter amount of time they're spaying together. It's
like I kind of kind of called out. I didn't
really like the aspects of the less truthfulness of the characters,
and and that kind of slowed it down a bit.
You know, obviously the infidelity talk is but at its core,
(41:00):
it is a story about the one that got away
came back into your life. What would you do? Like,
that's an interesting story. Nothing in this movie. And I've
like you had said, Tristan, I had read little bits
or I think I had heard that this one had
been regarded equal, if not better than the first, but
it just didn't didn't really come across like that to me.
I don't think again, not a negative, negative, but I
(41:23):
think I'm giving this a four.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know everything that you're saying, Darren, I truly do,
and I don't discount it. I won't be like Tristan
with me and just dismiss it out of hand and
just move on. I however, agree with Ebert that part
of what makes this work is while the framing is
roughly the same and these are the same characters, these
(41:47):
the stakes are are more interesting. I guess because when
they're kids and they're going around and they're having this
crazy night, that's the impetuousness of youth. That is something
that fades very quickly when you have your different responsibilities
come into your life and everything like that. I think
that I think that Sunset is a film that resonates
(42:11):
more when you are you know, when you can relate
somewhat to Jesse and Selene talking about their frustrations with
the this is the pain feels like too big a
word about. Let's go ahead and use it. This feels
like the pain of people who never want to let
go of that innocence and idealism of youth and were
forced to. And they're sitting here talking to the one
(42:35):
other person that truly understood what that meant to them.
But it's it's Jesse and Selene even more than finding
out that they are in love with each other from
back then. I think that Jesse and Selene, what they
discover in this film is that they're in love with
who they were and they don't like who they've become necessarily,
(42:55):
and this, this relationship here that happens in this film
are two people giving themselves permission to say, maybe I
can be that person again. Does it work? I'm not
coming down on that. I'm not saying anything there. I'm
saying like, and I'm not saying it's a good idea. Yeah,
the usual disclaimers and everything like that. I'm saying That's
(43:17):
what I think makes this film work so well, is
this is two people who are trying to find themselves again.
The debate more is about whether trying to find it
through somebody else. I mean, ironically Selene saying I don't
need anybody else, but she's finding herself by reaching out
to someone else, and Jesse's sort of doing the same
thing here, and I think that's probably what makes it
(43:41):
such a rich experience, at least from my perspective. I mean, Tristan,
where do you fall with it? You're the one that
asked the question. For Pete's sake, you sit here silent,
just listen to us talk. Feel well cheated right now.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
I have actually been silent for most of this episode
because I've been really enjoying what you guys have been saying.
And Darren, I want to I want to read you
another another thing from a This one was from The
New York Times by Aoscott, and he says that it
was sometimes maddening but also enthralling, precisely because of its
casual disregard for the usual imperatives of screenwriting. He says,
can't they just say what they mean?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Can you?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
Language? After all, is not just about points and meanings.
It is a medium of communication, yes, but also of avoidance, misdirection,
self protection, and plain confusion, all of which are among
the themes of this movie, which captures a deep truth
seldom acknowledged on screen or in books. So Ao Scott
is telling you why you are wrong, yes, and how
(44:36):
you're feeling and is invalidating you And I just wanted
to make that clear.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
No, like yeah, no, no, I get that, and I like, yeah,
a lot of the key points he said, because you're right,
they are. I mean, it really starts when she shows up.
It's like, why did she go there? Why did she
And it was because he didn't well he couldn't search
her out and that regard. But and then I totally
(45:01):
get the aspect of the defenses slowly being lowered and
the questions and as they're talking about, you know, where
they are in their lives and they talk about you know,
I mean in the beginning when he says everything in
the world's actually getting better and she's like, you're absolutely wrong,
and let me tell you why. Like, and I think
all those scenes are very important because yeah, you want
(45:24):
to hear about how these characters have grown and their
opinions and what are what's the same, and what's different.
I guess at its core, I cannot give them a
pass for how things turned out because they are the
ones who made such poor choices on the lack of
communication in the first movie, Like they could have avoided this.
(45:47):
I get the romance of one night, oh and we'll
never see each other again, but they could have done
more to actually be able to contact each other. So
four stars standing firm.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
No, and that's fair.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Let me quote you another review.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
From the trick here is that something that I think
is unavoidable for me. I'm not saying for everybody, but
something that I think is unavoidable for me is I
look at Before Sunset and it's a snapshot in time
of the sort of almost like a last moment, a
last hurrah before online connection, stalking of people you knew
(46:26):
in college and high school and at previous jobs and
all that stuff became a way of life. And this
is not me saying social media bad. I'm saying that
what it did in a sense is you look at
this movie coming out in two thousand and four. This
is an odd thing. Now I look at this and
I say, well, Jesse would have just looked her up
(46:47):
on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, all of these different things.
He'd a founder, Maybe we make contact, maybe he wouldn't,
and he would go search her out and all of
those sorts of things, Like there's a really odd moment
in time here because it literally is right before that breaks,
and I just think it's fascinating because of that, Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
Looking for hot French chick.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
No, tristed, don't hit enter, don't hit enter.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
God No, the grandma dead, Grandma. No. It makes me
think of You're right, it's a moment in time that
there's also a nostalgia four as well, Like I've heard
the joke of what cell phones would completely like get
rid of any plot drama in any Seinfeld episode, because
half of an episode is like, Oh, we were going
to meet up over here, but then we didn't, and
(47:37):
then I missed you, and then I came over here,
and it's like, yeah, if we all had cell phones
like this would literally not be a plot.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
And conversely, the show twenty four wouldn't have been able
to exist without cell phones.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
You know, it's just kind of interesting how storytelling can change.
I'm going to give my rating four and a half
because I love this movie. I think it's fantastic, I
think it's great, and I'm giving it a four and
a half because it just it would feel wrong to
give it five stars because to me personally, because the
first one put me in awe. I'm an evangelist for
(48:10):
that movie. I can feel it in my bones and
I love it, and I just didn't feel the same
way but before Sunset. And I'm not saying I felt less,
it just felt very different. And yeah, I guess I
am kind of saying less Tisan because.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
A different movie made him feel differently.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Yes, that's essentially that's my review, and I'm sticking with it. No,
so I'm giving I'm giving it four and a half
just because I'm just giving that little half starred difference
because I just feel like it could have been a
little bit longer. We could have had. I don't see, man,
I just feel like I'm I'm picking things up. You
are I'm giving I'm giving it four and a half
because I want to give it four and a half.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I can't really justify it other than it did not
hit me as hard as the first one. That's the
only reason I'm giving, and that's that's fine. I will
ascend above the two of you and give it a five.
And the reason I will give it a five is
because I think that while we definitely indulged, you know,
very carefully saying we would never do a thing like
(49:10):
it's a movie and I don't want Jesse behaving the
way I would. This is a that's not as interesting
because I know how the way I behave this movie
never happens, and that's that's not very interesting.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
But in terms of character study, this movie recognizes you're
here because of the first one. You are, Like you said, Tristan,
you're already invested. And at the end of this movie
and this is gonna be weird, and I feel weird
even saying it. I ache for these characters because, like
I was saying, I don't think they're even looking for
(49:45):
each other in this they're looking for themselves. And then
at the end what I ache for is, no are
they Like at the end of Before Sunrise, I'm saying, gosh,
I hope they get back together, and in this one,
I'm terrible if they do, and I'm terrified if they don't.
But it doesn't leave me hanging in an awful way.
(50:06):
It leaves me hanging in that discussion way which a
movie like this, if I don't walk out of it
able to have a discussion like this with my two friends,
like the movie's a waste. This movie is not a
waste because I've seen it multiple times and I have
a conversation like this every time, just like I do
with the first one. So five stars from me on this.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
One last question to both of you because it just
struck me and they obviously reference and talk quite a
bit about that night. But could this movie be watched
on its own? Like if someone I think I didn't
know that the first one existed, they went to Blockbuster,
and Blockbuster didn't have their A game on and it
didn't have all three right next to each other for
(50:51):
some reason. Do you think you could just watch this
as its own movie? Does it have enough glue and foundation?
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I think so. I would never have given it five
if I didn't think that because it catches you catches
you are a stickler for that, big stickler for that.
Speaker 4 (51:07):
I don't think that you aren't always fair with that
in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Oh yes, I'm certain I'm a perfect arbiter. I'm the judge.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
The sequel is a reward for long time fans, just
throwing that.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
I think something's broken, John, because I'm looking at the stats.
In the last four movies you've all given five. So
is the five keys stuck on your computer?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
I'll tell you what's going to be stuck is something
I don't want to and so but I can. I
can say that I fully embrace this stretch of fives
because I think that the last four are exactly I mean,
what I think could be a very fascinating discussion point
(51:47):
is how different these four movies are. Well, I mean
not the last two obviously, but like you know, it's
a learning journey for all of us.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Once upon a time in Hollywood before sunrise and before sunset.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah, So tune in next week, folks and see
whether the five streak remains. And Darren, what is it
that we're going to be covering next week.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Well, they go away from the tests alliteration, But next
week we're going to be talking about twenty thirteen's Before Midnight,
the at the time conclusion of the Richard Linkletter before Trilogy.
Here on, House Lights, Join
Speaker 1 (52:23):
The Revolution, Join the ned Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to house Lights, specifically the House of Link Later,
or at least we're building a small addition. Maybe this
is a summer house of Link later, or like a
guesthouse of Link later out in the backyard. That's what
he's in the Cato Calin suite of house lights, and
we are house Lights, and we are bringing you this
look at two thousand and four's before sunset, not before sunrise,
(00:44):
before sunset, a lot of time of day shift here
are going on. And I am joined by two wonderful conversationalists,
Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser, and me I'm the grumpy
man smoking a cigarette behind them in a Parisian cafe,
John Mills, and we are delighted to have you along
here for what could be considered the Empire strikes Back
(01:05):
of Romantic film trilogies. Or is it. I don't know.
We'll find out because it's Darren's first time seeing it.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Bold words, How you got shn bold words?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
There you go? There you go. And Tristan and I
we have witnessed the journey with before sunset previously. And
I'm going to do two things right here before I
kick it to Darren, because Darren, since you're the newbie
with viewing these films, obviously it's going to get kicked
over to you. But the first thing I want to
say is that we will minimize as three married men
(01:38):
with children, exactly how terrible Ethan Hawk really is for
what he does in this film, for Jesse as a character,
because you know, look, it's a movie. We're not going
to get too deep in the real world stuff. So
we'll save that, we'll table it, we'll walk away. We'll
all say I don't think any of the three of
us would have done the same thing, and leave it
at that. So Darren, this is your first time here,
(01:59):
and you went into Before Sunrise Cold and you're coming
into Before Sunset. You know there's a third movie coming in,
so there's a little bit of a spoiler there. This
was a bit of a surprise, I guess, and Ethan
Hawk's own words, nobody asked them to make this movie.
They did it because they wanted to. First impression coming
in when the movie starts, not the whole film, but
(02:22):
the movie stars first couple of minutes was your sense
of good we're coming back, and this feels authentic again
or was it? Did it take more time to warm
up to you, to get you to come back into
the story.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Uh, No, it slid right back in, primarily because I mean,
this movie's only eighty minutes, so you say the first
few minutes, like that's a good chunk of the movie. Anyway,
it is a percentage yes, and yeah, pretty much right away.
You know, we're setting up the bookstore and the signing,
and you can tell he wrote about, you know, the
previous movie, which I just watched last week, so I'm
(02:56):
all caught up. And then and then he sees her,
and that's really the moment of like, oh, she's here,
she's in she's she's actually here in front of me.
And then we start like a single shot of them
walking throughout the rest of the movie. I know they're cuts,
but it feels very singular focused from then on. So yeah,
I didn't know was this going to be the six
(03:19):
months later when they got together? Uh, And it wasn't.
It's been real time ish, it's been at least a
decade or so. He's got nine years nine years. Yeah,
so he has a little kid, and we'll talk about marriage. Yeah,
a little later about that. But yeah, it it's interesting
where on its surface, I think this was a worthy
(03:42):
story to tell, but it also had aspects of checking
the boxes, like did we find out who actually went
six months later?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
We did, check, you know, did we find out, you know,
if they actually slept together?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Check?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
You know, like kind of those those questions that bubble
up from the end of the first one. We answered
all those. So maybe that's what sequels are supposed to do.
But we still were left on a little bit of
a cliffhanger. So yeah, I didn't know really what to expect.
But this was a great helping of this particular story.
This is a very interesting concept of diving back in
(04:19):
every ten or so years.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So were you surprised by the disposition of the characters?
Was there was it surprising that Jesse was married? Was
it surprising that she didn't show but he did? Were
there were there any surprises along the way that you
didn't see? Telegraphs in any way, or rather a better
way to say it, that that truly took an unexpected
turn for you, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Not particularly, it's hard. I mean, do you mean telegraph
throughout this movie? Or tell you no, I don't movie
Telegraph was bad. That's why I was trying to like
walk that back. Was like, were there any story points?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Though? Sometimes you watch a movie and it's going along
and a character says something or does something and you go, oh,
I didn't. I didn't see that. And it seemed a surprise,
Like was it a surprise that Jesse actually went back
six months later and has sort of been nursing that
ache ever since. Was it a surprise that he was married?
Was it a surprise that Celine wasn't.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I don't think surprise is the right word, because again,
there's no there's very little frame of reference for this
story except for the one night they've had, so I
I kind of have no expectations. The thing that surprised
me the most was there.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
What's the word?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
They're kind of joking mannerisms of false truths and haha,
just kiddings, which very much we saw on the first one,
especially with with Ease and Hawk's character. Will He'll be like, oh, yeah,
I'm married, Oh just kidding. Oh, but we actually I
actually did show up. No, I didn't, And I started
it started almost great where I'm like, can we just
(05:52):
say what we mean instead of because I'm pretty sure
every time you talk you are speaking the truth. But
I'm starting to wonder because they're popping in more and
more as this story is unfolding. So yeah, it you know,
like even for her, she was like, oh, yeah, I
totally remember us having sex, even though for a chunk
of the movie She's like, no, we didn't, and I'm
(06:13):
like okay. So it felt like that was a through
thread from the first movie of this way they communicate
with kind of jokes and yeah, I'm I'm just kidding
in backtracks, which was an interesting thing to bring through, Like,
I wasn't expecting that, so that was kind of the
only surprise I got Atrician. That's an interesting thread to
(06:34):
pull on there is do you think that the casual
dishonesty that the characters have with each other at certain moments,
do you think that that adds any layer of realism
to two people who are trying to figure out each
other again after I mean, they were only together for
one night and they spend roughly an hour and a
half together here. Do you think that casual dishonesty is
(06:56):
more authentic because they're being more defensive, or do you
think that it's you know, is it just something we're
used to people stating their feelings more plainly in film.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
It's like that makes me angry, right, No, I totally
get what Darren is saying. And Darren, I think if
I saw this for the first time after watching the
first one for the first time, I would probably feel
more like you do now, because I think you have
a solid point. But for me, I think like, if
you look at the first one, if you look at Sunrise,
(07:28):
they spent all night together walking around, having several different
kinds of conversations. They got to know each other over
the course of what you know, like twelve hours something
like that, and with this one, it's just ninety minutes,
and it's after nine years of an adult's lifetime is
a very long time. And so to me, I think
it's the like Sunrise was an experiment for both of them,
(07:52):
Like they both went into it with complete honesty, Like
you could tell that they were having that moment where like,
I have a real connection with this person, and so
why would I bs my way through a conversation just
trying to get him into bed or like putting on
like a persona just to like show how cool you are.
Like this one was just the first one was brute
(08:14):
and honesty, and this one there was there's much more trepidation.
There was much more like where are we? What is this?
Who are we to each other? Are we in love?
Were we ever in love? Like we got a lot
of baggage coming into this, and so I feel like
we get a peek into Jesse's defense mechanism where he
(08:34):
wants to be that brutally honest person that he was
in the nineties in Vienna, you know, so much so
that he wrote about it, and he's worried, Like he's like, oh, man,
I wrote a book about this, and now I'm with you,
and you know, I wrote a book about it, and
I wrote a book about it so that you read
it and maybe reach out to me, and so you know,
I'm taking this very seriously. But he has no idea
(08:57):
if she's taking it as seriously as he is. And
so I feel like that, like, oh, yeah, no, totally,
I'm married. Haha. I'm just kidding. It's fine, you know,
Like it's I think it's it's a much older Jesse,
but I don't think it's necessarily a more mature Jesse.
And I think he's trying to figure things out with
with Selene. That's how I took it.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, I mean that that's I think a question that
I think is there throughout the film, is this idea
that they I'll throw this out on the floor. I
take a lot of this, and just from my first viewing,
this viewing other viewings that in a sense, their experiment
in Before Sunrise kind of ruined them for the next
(09:42):
stage of their life because it left them with and
the fact that they never got together again in that
time period. They didn't meet that six months later. That's
what ruined them, because they never had a reason not to,
like unresolved love, idealize, fedish and romanticize what had happened
(10:03):
that night. They are left to stew on it. And
I think that's a very honest sort of thing to
look at, how human beings can take a moment in
time and idealize it and make it so much in
their mind like it's a very special night, it's a
great night. But they obviously both never really moved on
(10:24):
from it, and I think that is what makes a
lot of it very interesting because you see this, I
think with Jesse, what's interesting about his character in this film,
is you see that he became the cynic he never
wanted to be. Why did I get married? Well, she
got pregnant, so I'm supposed to get married and I didn't.
(10:45):
You know, This isn't what he wanted his life to be.
And so he's having his midlife crisis basically, and the
book is an attempt to exercise that demon while at
the same time tempting fate to take him back there
again sort of thing. And I mean, Darren, just to
go with that, do you think that there is something
true about the human condition, about the the predilection that
(11:09):
people have for romanticizing the past, like glossing over it
and looking at it. Do you think that that is
the core truth of this movie or do you think
that it's getting in another message?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
No, I can see that. I think. Yeah, for these
two characters, them not meeting six months later totally mess
them up. But it's an interesting thing with this story
because yeah, like you said, they're slowly revealing to each
other over these eighty minutes. They're very guarded as they're
releasing little bits of information like Oh, I am married,
(11:42):
Oh I have a kid, Oh but we're not happy. Oh,
but I'm married too, but he's always away and they're
only really real with each other at the very end.
I would almost rather I know this changes the whole story,
but I which Almos rather have had it been they
(12:02):
have this super spark of a moment when they first
see each other, and we get more of that total honesty.
It's almost like they're so if. In the very beginning
they're both like, hey, what if we just changed our
lives to be together? And then the rest of the
movie is about why would or wouldn't that work? As
the other dominoes fall into place as they're picking up
(12:24):
the rest of their life of how you can't just
unspool a life that you've already lived. But instead we
get that moment and I'm not saying it's wrong. We
just get that moment at the end of this segment
as we're slowly building of like, well, what's going to
happen now? And obviously we'll find that out in a decade,
But I know that completely changes the premise of this movie,
(12:47):
but it's an interesting thought of I want to see
that conversation. I want to see them being like, well,
we could get a place together, but I want to
see my son. Oh, and there's so many good stories
that are told with I want to do this, but this,
and then we could do this, but that, Like that
ebb and flow of narrative structure. I want to see
(13:08):
these two characters kind of battle it out in their
minds of trying to make this relationship work.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But that's obviously not what we get.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
We get that that is the conversation that could happen
after the credits roll, but instead it's you know, the
guarded tidbits of life. And then there's some parts of
it that starts to stew of feeling like a movie
as so far as like, yeah, we aren't liking Jesse.
Jesse's kind of you know, why is he kind of
(13:39):
going down this road and he's like a married person
with a kid, And then they throw in that line
of oh, but we're not happy and I don't really
love her like I should love her, and it totally
feels like, oh, we put this in here so that
you emotionally as a viewer have a little bit of
an out to kind of like Jesse again, Oh but
they're not happy. So everything he's contemplating and doing right
(14:03):
now is a different lens.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I know we're you know, no, I think no, no,
I think that's very fair. Tristy, you go ahead, Well,
I think that is absolutely fair. I think that it's
one hundred percent what they were doing. Yeah, but at
the same at the same token, you know, a person
who is happy in his marriage, someone who is very
much in love and loves his spouse and has a
(14:29):
happy life with a happy child and a happy home
and a happy fence, all those kind of things wouldn't
be having this kind of conversation with another woman anyway,
regardless of how great a past event was. Like say that,
say that I all of a sudden like, no, but
I don't. I don't have a Selene in my life, you.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Know, like so like I so like if I ran
into like I don't know someone who had an amazing
day with or an amazing date with someone that was
just like really passionate we were going to meet together
and everything like that, Like say, but I was happily married,
you know, I wouldn't be. There wouldn't be any tension there,
we wouldn't have a drama. It would be like, oh,
it's nice to meet you. I'm glad, we're reconnecting. You know,
(15:13):
it would be boring, It would be boring. But to
have the character of Jesse be in a crap marriage
and have him repeat the mistakes of his own parents
of getting pregnant, having to get married, feeling like you
have to get married, and then you know, like flirting
with divorce and everything like that, Like that allows this
movie to happen. That allows this conversation to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It does they do to be fair, it's not just
a one line. He talks about the fact that they've
been to marriage counseling, he's tried to do all of
these things. But we are only getting Jesse's perspective in
that moment, which there's there's all of those sorts of
layers that go along with it. I think that it's
it's an interesting lens on a When I was saying
(15:55):
this earlier, it's an interesting lens on a midlife crisis
sort of guy who is realizing that life is about
obligation and commitments that you've made sometimes and everybody can
agree on that sort of thing, like they're you know,
I don't you know, do you want to work forty
two eighty hours a week? No, I do not however,
(16:16):
I must and those sorts of things. That's just part
of life. I mean, if anything, Jesse's in the catbird
seat because he's an author who's traveling the globe promoting
a book that's a best seller in the United States.
It's kind of like it'd be very easy for somebody
to look at that and be like, bro, what do
you what do you complain about your Your life's okay
compared to the average person in the world. You know,
it's not so bad, but people will see and I
(16:37):
think he acknowledges this at one point. But like my
big question then is Darren, at what point during all
of their conversation do you first pick up that Jesse
is realizing that he's still in love with Selene because
he is defensive at first. At what point do you
see Jesse crack And it's not necessarily that he says
(17:01):
anything to her, it's that he is there something that
in Hawk's mannerisms or in a look that he gives
that says to you, oh, he's figuring out he is
still in love with her.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, I would say when he takes her phone to
call at the driver, because by that point he is
then starting to elongate the time together. And this movie
does it really great where it's like and then I'm
gonna oh, and then we'll take a cab and then
I'll walk you to your door, and then we'll have
some tea. And it's like you could tell he's you know,
(17:34):
he has no intent. By the end, you're like, oh,
he has no intention of catching that plane, like he
wants to continue this time together. So I in my
head canon, he sent himself a text from her phone
as soon as he was given her phone because he
was never going to lose the ability to contact her again.
We don't show that, and we don't see that. It's
not elluded at all. But I'm like, I was in
(17:57):
this weird situation, like I would not risk that at all.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
But so that's my moment.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I would say, but I do want to give credit
to the story. This is a good story being told.
If the story had been oh, yeah, neither of us
are married and we don't have kids, and we both
have jobs that let us travel and we actually live
in the same country, and oh I just happened to
not run into you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's boring.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
That's then it's basically the December meetup just nine years later,
but instead having life, having lived and roots put down,
and you notice these kind of few moments that they
could have maybe by chance, have had seen each other.
But yeah, it's a very interesting tale. But yeah, so
(18:43):
I that's my hit canon. All to say is that
as he starts to elongate their time together and starts
to consider his next steps, especially.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
With the phone, Tristan, where do you see it?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Well, actually, one thing I do want to talk about,
if I if I could shift gears just a little.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Bit, sure is Darren? Are we gonna let the shift?
Gears said?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, totally shiftift heres mid sentence all the time. What
you're talk about? That?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
All right? Well we'll both.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I think it is fine because we you know, we're
ragging on Jesse a lot, which is fine. He deserves
to be ragged on. There was one moment in particular
where they're running around and then he sits down on
a bench and then like grabs her and then makes
her sit on his lap, and I'm like, how old
are you? Like when I was when I was watching,
(19:30):
like watching that in two thousand and three, I was
in high school and I was like, I don't even
know if I could get away with that, like as
a high schooler as it was like seventeen or eighteen.
But it's just I think it just gave a peek
into them, like a portion of the immaturity of Jesse.
But at the same token, I think if you look
at Selene, you know, like there there are times when
(19:51):
she's not the same person either that she was in Vienna.
You know, like she she's lived life too, like she's
she's gone in you know, when she was talking about
trying to get pencils, or when she was talking about
the cop you know, saying that she needed to buy
a gun, which was a true story by the way,
that actually happened to Julie Delpy, the whole cop and
a gun thing. It just like you can tell that
she she gets angrier. She you know, I don't want
(20:13):
to say flies off the handle, but like she she
gets she gets bigger in her emotions than she did
in the nineties. Like in the nineties it was just
kind she was just kind of wry and you know,
sardonic and things like that. Here, like you can see
that she has legitimate frustrations anger that kind of have
amplified over the past nine years. And so they both
have lived, they both have changed, and so they're both
(20:33):
asking each other that question of do I want to
be with this person? You know, Selene is asking the question.
He's married, he has a kid, so he's off limits.
But then as he keeps talking, she's like, does he
not think he's off limits to me? You know? And
he's questioning his entire life, saying like she's off limits
because I'm married. But what if I leave her? You know,
what if I leave her, I'll take Henry with me.
(20:55):
You know, I'll figure it out. I'll get a good lawyer.
You can tell you can see the wheels spinning in
his head. But then, like there are certain times when
he's just kind of like, you know, like he kind
of makes fun of her in the taxi cab talking
about how she got crazy. There was some truth in
that joke. To him, I'm saying, and from his perspective,
I'm not saying that she is crazy. I'm saying that
like for a guy to make that joke, it's usually
because there's a kernel of truth to it. So John,
(21:17):
I wanted to know, Like Darren, you talked about how
you would have liked to have seen a movie where
they talked about how they would get together. I think
we watched that movie personally. I feel like we saw
that kind of develop over the course of the entire movie.
It just wasn't explicit in my opinion. And John, I
want to know from your perspective, do you feel like
you got a good look at the inner workings of
(21:37):
their minds or was it really just Jesse we got
to see frustrated, or like, what.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Do you know? No, I'll just jump right in there.
I think we did get a good glimpse at their minds.
I'll answer a couple of things here where For me,
I think Jesse realizes he's still in love with her
when they sit down in the cafe and the conversation
it's as if they never stopped. They just that's the
moment at which the conversation becomes comfortable again. And I
(22:04):
think is specifically in that scene. If you look at
the way that it is edited, it spends a lot
of time focused on Jesse's facial reactions to her talking,
and I think that's a conscious choice to show Jesse.
We get to see his face soften and his eyes
brighten a little bit as he realizes, oh, we do
(22:25):
still have a thing. It was an authentic thing that
happened back like it's almost like a validation of his
idealization of the night. But I think we did see
the inner workings of both of these people and Tristan.
I think it's something where there's a point in their
conversation where they talk about whether people change over time,
and Jesse says something along the lines of there are
(22:48):
certain guide points to a personality, and he talks about
people winning the lottery and suffering a terrible physical accident.
He says, and that after six months they essentially revert
back to the type of person they always were.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And I thought that was a real study, by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And he cites that, and I think that's there. You know,
that's their way of saying, these are the same basic
people and so we have seen them. They're allowing us
just to pick up and understand that. And I think
the complicated thing is I have a very I typically
have a real dislike of movies that indulge making it
(23:27):
okay to break a trust like a marriage. But I
think that what's really deft about the way this movie
is put together and the way that it's performed. Is
it's the same type of ror shark test At the end,
do you presume that they immediately have a passionate love
making session or is this just when the credits roll
(23:49):
the conversation continues and they don't necessarily do that. Maybe
they do, maybe they don't, but it continues along the
lines where they then have it, Like I think it's
what you're talking about, Darren. Where at the end do
you believe that the conversation continued and then they had
the deeper mechanics of it. Look, this is obviously working.
I need to leave, you know, Jesse saying I need
(24:11):
to leave my wife no matter what. It doesn't matter
whether we're together or not. You've made me realize the
type of love I need in my life. And she, conversely,
can say I suddenly realized that I need some sort
of way to express myself openly. Because what we learned
through the course of this is she doesn't feel the
ability to express herself as openly to another human being
(24:35):
the way that she does to Jesse. It's not that
she needs another person, she says herself, I'm an independent,
strong woman. I don't need somebody else. But we can
see her obviously feel better about having somebody she can
at least speak to openly and honestly. All of that
said Darren, as they go along, have we been glancing
over one of the more poignant questions, which is how
(25:00):
how did the driver get out of the driveway that
had the bar on it? Because this jerk of affair
of his went upstairs and left him stuck in a
dead end that he would have had to back out
of and didn't seem like it was an easy thing.
Is that the worst crime emotionally of the movie.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Emotionally, man, I don't really have any answer for that.
I was just reading about Ethan Hawk's divorce, so let's
bring that up for a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Just Yeah, he got a divorce from um with herman, Yeah,
which he.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Wrote about in a fictional account called Light in the
Darkness or something like that. I cannot remember exactly, and it's.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
It was right before this movie was made, I believe.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yeah, he cheated on her before the movie was made,
and then she found out about it after the movie
was made and filed for divorce. He screwed up royally, Yes, yes,
he did, hardcore screwed up, And like the book that
he wrote about it. He does not pull any punches
on like on the like the fictional character that's going
(25:57):
through what he went through is very much portray as
one of the biggest idiots in the world, rightfully, So.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, you know, it's but the thing is this fine.
This found a lot of resonance with critics. This was
embraced very warmly. You know, Tristan, we're we're sitting here
and you know, sort of tongue in cheek at certain points,
we've we've been ragging on Jesse and stuff like that.
But there was a very warm reception that people had
(26:23):
to this film, and some people received it more warmly
even than the first. So obviously there's something about this
that works for everyone. Even though we're often told you
can't have a movie just with two people talking to
each other. They have to be doing things and stuff
has to happen, and it's it's really a vibe movie
in a lot of ways. So in terms of that resonance, though,
(26:47):
is there an aspect of this film that you think
is in any way experimental, that is, anything that is
unexpected in the way that it is shot or put together.
Because basically, obviously everybody loves the performances and everything. I'm
just trying to get at. Do you see anything that
would make somebody react to this and say, oh, this
(27:08):
is so fresh and different the way they're approaching, the
way it's put together.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
No, I wouldn't really say that it's fresh or different
or anything like that. I'd say it's classic indie, you know,
it's something that we saw a lot of in the nineties,
Like it's a successor to something that existed in the nineties,
that thrived in the nineties, and this is that type
of indie film where that's all you need. It's conversation based.
I feel like there are more movies exist like this
(27:34):
than don't, and I think they just don't get publicized.
They don't they the award circuit. They don't have Ethan
Hawk and Julie Delpy and Link letter as a driving
force behind them, and I think that definitely helps in
this situation. So no, I wouldn't say this no opposite
of experimental. This is very mainstream in terms of how
it approaches a story, Like even though it's just two
(27:54):
people talking, it has a very clear defined beginning, middle,
and end and chopped up basically in the thirty minute
increments of first meeting, getting comfortable and just letting loose
and like pouring out emotionally.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And wait, so that means so, John, you would rather
they chop this into three episodes streamed and then you
watch them in like.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Back to back. But yeah, no, yeah, this should be
released on Disney Plus's three separate episodes half hour episodes
then that I could watch out of sequence if I.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Want to two Deep fade to black in the middle.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
No, they absolutely would be wonderful, you know, But Tristan,
you know, I agree with you. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking
with the photography or anything like that. Do you think, though,
that it advances any of the visual language of the
first one? Do you see a more refined link later
in Daniels.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think it absolutely It does something different where, you know,
like in the first one, it takes the course over
twelve hours and it's very voyeuristic and you feel like
a tourist and in a good way. And with this one,
it almost takes place in real time, pretty much in
real time, Like ninety minutes of the movie is ninety
(29:07):
minutes in real life, which is crazy. And it was
all shot in the afternoon because they had to shoot
it in the afternoon, like everything was in that magical
glow glowy yellow and orange and everything like that, and
that was a challenge, but they did it in fifteen days.
They shot all of this in fifteen days, only shooting
in the afternoons. That's awesome, And that means that they
(29:28):
had nothing but preparation and practice and rehearsal time and
just like they did with the first one.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And no surprise rainstorms.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
And no surprise rainstorm and so like to me, I
feel like that in itself, that like they did, they
had less money to work with less time, but they
were able to get it done and they got If
you look on Rotten Tomatoes, I know Rotten Tomatoes isn't
a great indicator for movies that existed before Rotten Tomatoes,
but this one is up in the mid nineties for
critics as well as audience. It got a Criterion release,
(29:57):
and it's so I think that and itself advanced it.
But one thing I do want to talk about is,
you know, like we're all kind of talking about the
fact about how Jesse's married and it should be acting
like this, you know, as a married man, which is
one hundred percent truth. However, what's funny is, as audience members,
what we forgive is on screen is something that we
would never forgive in real life. How often do we
(30:20):
as audience members say out loud, why don't they just
kill him?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yes, very true. I think that is a right.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I don't be hanging here like. There's so many times
when like I will say, like, oh God, if they
just killed him, you know, like life would be easier,
And that's not something you would ever say in real life.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
The character has more morals than you do. In that moment,
you're like, but it's a movie, so it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
It doesn't matter. But the thing is, I think that
what it is is it's a basic manipulation tactic of
you know, of a filmmaker, or of a playwright, or
of anybody else who puts a dramatic work together. Is
essentially it's like arguing before a jury. We're the jury
and so the case instead of getting the case in
(31:02):
court where the lawyer has to come up and try
to say yay, yeah, yeah, okay, I understand that they
broke the rules, but you have to consider all of
this stuff that happened beforehand. You could come on and
they try to build a sympathetic case. We get the
sympathetic case first, so that when we arrive at the
point of judgment, we're predisposed to say, well, yeah, but
I know Jesse's a good person, and I know that
(31:23):
he didn't really mean it. I think he's unhappy in
his marriage. I don't want the guy to be unhappy.
I mean, he even says he doesn't want to be
fifty two and wake up and realize one day that
he's trapped in his marriage and this terrible thing. If anything,
people would say, I would argue, well, yes, he should
get out of his marriage. He's going about it the
incorrect way because he should put the cart, you know,
(31:45):
he's putting the cart before the horse here. He should
instead first go to his wife at the time and say,
I am, this is unresolvable. We need to get a
lawyer involved, we need to blah blah blah blah blah,
and whatever, you know, whatever other sort of stuff happen
go on, and we would say that is the right
way to do it. So he does it the wrong way,
but we're able to say, well, Okay, he went about
(32:06):
it wrong, but he's for him he's living his truth
and doing the right thing for him, right that sort
of thing, oh you know, I hate, I know, and
that ladies and gentlemen, is why I specifically use the
phrase because this is our walk around Paris and I
love to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Yes, well, and there's yeah, it's not the right way.
But and again it's all like I mentioned before, we
all knew that line when he's saying, oh, but I'm
not happy, Like we know why that's in there. We
know how that's meant to manipulate us as an audience,
Just like there's no scene of him having to take
(32:46):
a phone call and chat with his son who misses
him to put.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Like the story.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
You could put that in there. It could be right
in there, but there wasn't you know, that wasn't there
That his.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Cell phones were a lot harder to come by, And okay, true, true,
this is previo.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But one thing that's interesting from an audience perspective, since
we're kind of on that right now, is when you
look at it from another person's perspective, say that you
are Julie Delpy's parents, I'm sorry, Selene's parents, or say
that you are Jesse's wife or friend, or something like that,
like Selene is telling them about Jesse and about that
(33:22):
night in Vienna, Jesse is telling his wife about Selene
and that night in Vienna and everything like that, and
so they have to convince other people about the magic
of that night, but they don't have to convince us,
because there was three people there in Vienna. There was Selene,
there was Jesse, and there was us, and so they
already know we are a.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Sympathetic audience every moment we were there.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
And so the link letter knows he has us, he
knows that we're invested. Is like if you've saw before Sunrise,
you are invested in these people and you want them
to be together. So you're going to forgive a lot
of things. And that gets tested hard in the next one.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yes it does, it does.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Don't be spoiling the next one for me, guys.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
But see what with this being there are I think
one of the shots in here lasts eleven minutes, which
is that that's a long shot.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Over three days. I don't know how they did it.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
But what I what I want to say is that
I think that something that gets overlooked with this film
is the sound, because that's not easy in a you know,
a Parisian street as you're strolling through to get clean
enough sound, and so obviously there's other you know, there's
there's recording you gotta do later, there's got to you
(34:37):
to pick up stuff, and all of those sorts of things.
I think that the that there is a real accomplishment here,
that there's nothing that sounds later. Studio added, there's nothing
that sounds poorly recorded or anything like that, Like I
expect that of a film like this, especially knowing the
production history and basically it's gorilla filmmaking for them to
(34:58):
get the clean sound. I mean, I don't work in
the industry obviously, but I have seen enough movies to
say that seems like something of an accomplishment. I mean,
am I off base there?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
A good movie can do replacement without you knowing it.
And when you're doing a tracking shot like that, more
often than not it's it's fake sound. Hawk and Delpy
are wearing lapels and then you have, you know, nat
sound captured by a shotgun. Well I'm not I mean,
I know to minimize.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That, I know, I know the how, but I'm like
it for it not to sound like the authentic sound
at any point I found to be Yes, a true achievement.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Absolutely, and I'm not trying to minimize that whatsoever it is.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Is it impossible to minimizing him, Tristan.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
This is his revenge for me saying live your truth.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I couldn't place the scene, but I do remember having
a moment in watching this where I noticed the sound
in a good way where I was like, maybe she
was making tea or something was happening on the screen,
and I was like, wow, that I'm hearing exactly what
I'm expecting to hear. It's very and it didn't pull
me out. But when you mentioned that, John, it made
(36:07):
me think that I did have that moment during this
movie of just good sound.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So I I mean, I have to also say that
Julie Delpy wrote two of the three songs we hear,
including the one that plays over the credits, and I
think that they you know, I think the music was wonderful,
But this is in some ways a lot like I
would say Dog Day Afternoon, where you know, Darren, did
(36:32):
you notice the lack of soundtrack throughout the course of
the film, Like there's no like heavy musical hits or anything.
Did it or did you have any moment where you're like,
oh wait, there's there's there's no like score here, like
what wow? Okay, No, it didn't really occur to me.
But it's such a out and about natural that.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I mean, yeah, if they had maybe a little more
diagetic music of like going by someone, well, actually I
do recall in the very beginning, they don't they walk
by someone who's like playing in accordion. It's like, really
really obvious. I remember, I remember that moment. But yeah, no,
they're right, there is no score in that regard. But
I didn't think it needed it. I didn't feel like.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I agree, I agree completely, but I just think it's
sens a refresha on the waltz.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I think that, yeah, building to that, and that actually
is the music part. I think that. Not to say
that if you had music the waltz wouldn't be as impactful,
but not having music did help underscore the waltz.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I am just from one other aspect. As warmly received
as this film was, it obviously wasn't like a huge
blockbuster sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
But I however, yes, however, okay, it had a budget
of two to two point seven million, and it earned
back sixteen million.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yes, sixteen million, which so is successful.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Return of investment. It's very good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
But I'm saying that for or a film that didn't
have that sort of obviously one hundred million dollar box
office or anything like that. Do you think that part
of the charm of this movie is getting to be
a fan of it and spread the news as Sean
Eastridge from Missing Frames got to do with me where
he brought me along for this ride, And do you
(38:20):
think that part of the joy of this film is
getting to share it with people? Is this one of those, uh,
one of those movies that has found its life because
people love to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
I think it is mainly because of the first one, though,
Like I'm not going to go around and say like, hey,
have you seen Before Sunrise? And they go no, And
I'm like, well, let's watch before Sunset?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Good point. So I feel like I.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Want to say yes, but mainly because of Sunset, I
mean Sunrise.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Geez, this is hard? It does it is difficult?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Yeah, because like I was very much the person like
where I had my DVD copy of the first one
and I was walking around, I'm like, have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
No, let's watch it? Together.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Have you seen this? No, you're pretty Let's watch this.
And then I'm like, did you know that there is
a second one? Let's watch it. So it's very much
like did you like the first one, Let's watch the
second one? And so yeah. So I can't really say
this is because of it, but I do want to
ask you guys a question now that we're talking about
the first and second at the same time.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yes, it should be so old Sunrise strike back. Okay,
I'm sorry, that's just what it should be.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
This is what Roger Ebert wrote about the second one.
Before Sunrise was a remarkable celebration of the fascination of
good dialogue. But Before Sunset is better, perhaps because the
characters are older and wiser, perhaps because they have more
to lose or win, perhaps, and perhaps because Hawkendelpi wrote
the dialogue themselves. And Manola Dargas said Sunset is deeper,
(39:44):
truer work of art than the first and praised link
Letter for his filmmaking, saying it keeps faith with American
cinema at its finest. Darren, how do you feel about that?
How do you feel about Sunset compared to Sunrise in
that regard? Because this this is like, this is on
top one hundred lists. This is this this this movie
(40:06):
is beloved by critics and audiences alike. But I'm getting
the sense that you didn't like it as much as
the first one.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, I mean, not that we're getting the ratings. We're
kind of getting the ratings. I'm kind of inclined to
give this a four. Like it's still really good, but
I enjoyed Before Sunrise more. And it's I think it's
a some of its parts kind of vibe. It's not like, oh, well, yeah,
they had that scene and or I just didn't like
the story overall. It's just I like more about what
(40:37):
the first movie did in general in this one, you know,
it's a shorter amount of time they're spaying together. It's
like I kind of kind of called out. I didn't
really like the aspects of the less truthfulness of the characters,
and and that kind of slowed it down a bit.
You know, obviously the infidelity talk is but at its core,
(41:00):
it is a story about the one that got away
came back into your life. What would you do? Like,
that's an interesting story. Nothing in this movie. And I've
like you had said, Tristan, I had read little bits
or I think I had heard that this one had
been regarded equal, if not better than the first, but
it just didn't didn't really come across like that to me.
I don't think again, not a negative, negative, but I
(41:23):
think I'm giving this a four.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know everything that you're saying, Darren, I truly do,
and I don't discount it. I won't be like Tristan
with me and just dismiss it out of hand and
just move on. I however, agree with Ebert that part
of what makes this work is while the framing is
roughly the same and these are the same characters, these
(41:47):
the stakes are are more interesting. I guess because when
they're kids and they're going around and they're having this
crazy night, that's the impetuousness of youth. That is something
that fades very quickly when you have your different responsibilities
come into your life and everything like that. I think
that I think that Sunset is a film that resonates
(42:11):
more when you are you know, when you can relate
somewhat to Jesse and Selene talking about their frustrations with
the this is the pain feels like too big a
word about. Let's go ahead and use it. This feels
like the pain of people who never want to let
go of that innocence and idealism of youth and were
forced to. And they're sitting here talking to the one
(42:35):
other person that truly understood what that meant to them.
But it's it's Jesse and Selene even more than finding
out that they are in love with each other from
back then. I think that Jesse and Selene, what they
discover in this film is that they're in love with
who they were and they don't like who they've become necessarily,
(42:55):
and this, this relationship here that happens in this film
are two people giving themselves permission to say, maybe I
can be that person again. Does it work? I'm not
coming down on that. I'm not saying anything there. I'm
saying like, and I'm not saying it's a good idea. Yeah,
the usual disclaimers and everything like that. I'm saying That's
(43:17):
what I think makes this film work so well, is
this is two people who are trying to find themselves again.
The debate more is about whether trying to find it
through somebody else. I mean, ironically Selene saying I don't
need anybody else, but she's finding herself by reaching out
to someone else, and Jesse's sort of doing the same
thing here, and I think that's probably what makes it
(43:41):
such a rich experience, at least from my perspective. I mean, Tristan,
where do you fall with it? You're the one that
asked the question. For Pete's sake, you sit here silent,
just listen to us talk. Feel well cheated right now.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
I have actually been silent for most of this episode
because I've been really enjoying what you guys have been saying.
And Darren, I want to I want to read you
another another thing from a This one was from The
New York Times by Aoscott, and he says that it
was sometimes maddening but also enthralling, precisely because of its
casual disregard for the usual imperatives of screenwriting. He says,
can't they just say what they mean?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Can you?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
Language? After all, is not just about points and meanings.
It is a medium of communication, yes, but also of avoidance, misdirection,
self protection, and plain confusion, all of which are among
the themes of this movie, which captures a deep truth
seldom acknowledged on screen or in books. So Ao Scott
is telling you why you are wrong, yes, and how
(44:36):
you're feeling and is invalidating you And I just wanted
to make that clear.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
No, like yeah, no, no, I get that, and I like, yeah,
a lot of the key points he said, because you're right,
they are. I mean, it really starts when she shows up.
It's like, why did she go there? Why did she
And it was because he didn't well he couldn't search
her out and that regard. But and then I totally
(45:01):
get the aspect of the defenses slowly being lowered and
the questions and as they're talking about, you know, where
they are in their lives and they talk about you know,
I mean in the beginning when he says everything in
the world's actually getting better and she's like, you're absolutely wrong,
and let me tell you why. Like, and I think
all those scenes are very important because yeah, you want
(45:24):
to hear about how these characters have grown and their
opinions and what are what's the same, and what's different.
I guess at its core, I cannot give them a
pass for how things turned out because they are the
ones who made such poor choices on the lack of
communication in the first movie, Like they could have avoided this.
(45:47):
I get the romance of one night, oh and we'll
never see each other again, but they could have done
more to actually be able to contact each other. So
four stars standing firm.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
No, and that's fair.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Let me quote you another review.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
From the trick here is that something that I think
is unavoidable for me. I'm not saying for everybody, but
something that I think is unavoidable for me is I
look at Before Sunset and it's a snapshot in time
of the sort of almost like a last moment, a
last hurrah before online connection, stalking of people you knew
(46:26):
in college and high school and at previous jobs and
all that stuff became a way of life. And this
is not me saying social media bad. I'm saying that
what it did in a sense is you look at
this movie coming out in two thousand and four. This
is an odd thing. Now I look at this and
I say, well, Jesse would have just looked her up
(46:47):
on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, all of these different things.
He'd a founder, Maybe we make contact, maybe he wouldn't,
and he would go search her out and all of
those sorts of things, Like there's a really odd moment
in time here because it literally is right before that breaks,
and I just think it's fascinating because of that, Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
Looking for hot French chick.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
No, tristed, don't hit enter, don't hit enter.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
God No, the grandma dead, Grandma. No. It makes me
think of You're right, it's a moment in time that
there's also a nostalgia four as well, Like I've heard
the joke of what cell phones would completely like get
rid of any plot drama in any Seinfeld episode, because
half of an episode is like, Oh, we were going
to meet up over here, but then we didn't, and
(47:37):
then I missed you, and then I came over here,
and it's like, yeah, if we all had cell phones
like this would literally not be a plot.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
And conversely, the show twenty four wouldn't have been able
to exist without cell phones.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
You know, it's just kind of interesting how storytelling can change.
I'm going to give my rating four and a half
because I love this movie. I think it's fantastic, I
think it's great, and I'm giving it a four and
a half because it just it would feel wrong to
give it five stars because to me personally, because the
first one put me in awe. I'm an evangelist for
(48:10):
that movie. I can feel it in my bones and
I love it, and I just didn't feel the same
way but before Sunset. And I'm not saying I felt less,
it just felt very different. And yeah, I guess I
am kind of saying less Tisan because.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
A different movie made him feel differently.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Yes, that's essentially that's my review, and I'm sticking with it. No,
so I'm giving I'm giving it four and a half
just because I'm just giving that little half starred difference
because I just feel like it could have been a
little bit longer. We could have had. I don't see, man,
I just feel like I'm I'm picking things up. You
are I'm giving I'm giving it four and a half
because I want to give it four and a half.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I can't really justify it other than it did not
hit me as hard as the first one. That's the
only reason I'm giving, and that's that's fine. I will
ascend above the two of you and give it a five.
And the reason I will give it a five is
because I think that while we definitely indulged, you know,
very carefully saying we would never do a thing like
(49:10):
it's a movie and I don't want Jesse behaving the
way I would. This is a that's not as interesting
because I know how the way I behave this movie
never happens, and that's that's not very interesting.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
But in terms of character study, this movie recognizes you're
here because of the first one. You are, Like you said, Tristan,
you're already invested. And at the end of this movie
and this is gonna be weird, and I feel weird
even saying it. I ache for these characters because, like
I was saying, I don't think they're even looking for
(49:45):
each other in this they're looking for themselves. And then
at the end what I ache for is, no are
they Like at the end of Before Sunrise, I'm saying, gosh,
I hope they get back together, and in this one,
I'm terrible if they do, and I'm terrified if they don't.
But it doesn't leave me hanging in an awful way.
(50:06):
It leaves me hanging in that discussion way which a
movie like this, if I don't walk out of it
able to have a discussion like this with my two friends,
like the movie's a waste. This movie is not a
waste because I've seen it multiple times and I have
a conversation like this every time, just like I do
with the first one. So five stars from me on this.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
One last question to both of you because it just
struck me and they obviously reference and talk quite a
bit about that night. But could this movie be watched
on its own? Like if someone I think I didn't
know that the first one existed, they went to Blockbuster,
and Blockbuster didn't have their A game on and it
didn't have all three right next to each other for
(50:51):
some reason. Do you think you could just watch this
as its own movie? Does it have enough glue and foundation?
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I think so. I would never have given it five
if I didn't think that because it catches you catches
you are a stickler for that, big stickler for that.
Speaker 4 (51:07):
I don't think that you aren't always fair with that
in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Oh yes, I'm certain I'm a perfect arbiter. I'm the judge.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
The sequel is a reward for long time fans, just
throwing that.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
I think something's broken, John, because I'm looking at the stats.
In the last four movies you've all given five. So
is the five keys stuck on your computer?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
I'll tell you what's going to be stuck is something
I don't want to and so but I can. I
can say that I fully embrace this stretch of fives
because I think that the last four are exactly I mean,
what I think could be a very fascinating discussion point
(51:47):
is how different these four movies are. Well, I mean
not the last two obviously, but like you know, it's
a learning journey for all of us.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Once upon a time in Hollywood before sunrise and before sunset.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah, So tune in next week, folks and see
whether the five streak remains. And Darren, what is it
that we're going to be covering next week.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Well, they go away from the tests alliteration, But next
week we're going to be talking about twenty thirteen's Before Midnight,
the at the time conclusion of the Richard Linkletter before Trilogy.
Here on, House Lights, Join
Speaker 1 (52:23):
The Revolution, Join the ned Party.
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