June 16, 2025 • 19 mins
Have you heard of Theory of Mind? Even if you haven't heard that phrase, you've likely seen it play out in your interactions with early learners. Cindy and Alison discuss Theory of Mind, how it shows up, and the impact on our interactions with young children.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It. This is Alison Kenttos.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am an early childhood educator.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And this is Cindy tarror Bush. I am an early
childhood consultant.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
This podcast is for parents and early childhood professionals.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Let our experience and research based knowledge become your guide.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, preschool peeps, hie pee.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Last couple of episodes we've been recording us before. We're
recording these episodes just because people seem to be getting
a kickout.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We did it on a whim one day and we
got such positive feedback about it.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
So if you want to see us not recording a
podcast episode, but preparing to record a podcast episode, it's
really not a.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Lot of preparing.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
It's just gabbing and laughing and like randomly looking googling
things up.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, randomly. This is our lives. This is how we are. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
So check our Facebook page where we're posting these and
I forget where else we're hosting it, but definitely our
Facebook page, and you'll get to see the lack of magic.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Us behind the podcast. Yeah, real life house, not that
this isn't real life, no, yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I think that's the more professional real life us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
This is somewhat more professional professional, okaking of.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Which we we are going to behave more professionally because
people are listening to us all.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Over the place. We are people.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
People are listening to us all over the place.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So Allison, what are a couple of places we are
getting listened to? In Saint Lucia so cool, that's cool?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And Fairfield, Connecticut.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And I know we just shouted.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Out Connecticut a couple episodes ago because my cousins live
in the town.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
This is a different time.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
We wanted to have like a little like Connecticut competation.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So in the past I think we shouted out Vernon, Vernon.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yes, Okay, my cousin lives in Vernon High again see
shouting out again.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
See so Vernon, Connecticut was shout out.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
And then we go into the statistics today to figure
out who gets shouted out. Connecticut is number one, and
so I was like, Connecticut's number one. I go into
Connecticut and what we have now is Fairfield, Connecticut in
the number one spot.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
In Connecticut, Vernon number two.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I said, interesting, I wonder if there's a rivalry there,
because I'm pretty sure the people in Vernon are like
the people I know maybe I don't know, maybe not,
maybe not, they're not maybe not.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Their children all grown ups. They have no reason to
look at me.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I mean, you know, this way of thinking reminds me
of our topic today a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Oh okay, that what a good transition.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Yeah, we're here today to talk about something that I
think a lot of people have witnessed to work with
and raise young children, but not everybody knows what it's called.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Or the impact of it.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Really true, right, and ironically, or somewhat ironically, in my
life in the past week, it came up twice in
two different places, by two different people who don't know
each other. It was mentioned twice, so I just sort
of thought that was a little bit ironic, and therefore,
obviously the universe was telling us to talk about it.
(03:19):
So we're going to talk about theory of mind. And
first we're going to give you the formal definition, and
then well, I'll give you an example of what it
looks like in real life, and then Alison has an example.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And I want to encourage you all to think of your.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Own examples of theory of mind, because I know you
have them, and then send them to us either on
that Facebook page or through the contact form on our website,
which we get a lot of contact from, even more
than Facebook. And if Alison would kindly move her head
a little bit, if you're on YouTube either way, if
(03:54):
you're on YouTube, you'll see a QR code.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
You'll see a QR code that you can hold your
camera up to on your device, and that will take
you to what's basically a virtually business virtual business card
for this podcast, where you get the link to our website,
our Facebook page, and all other kinds of goodies.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
There's goodies goodies there. So you can even just go
to YouTube to.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Check that QR code, and you know, if you have
us on on YouTube, you can just listen after that
that if you prefer to listen.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
You don't have to be looking at usized though my
hair does look lovely today. All right, Back to theory
of mind. Back to theory of mind.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
So theory of mind, the definition is it's the ability
to understand and predict the mental state and thinking of
other people. And when when we're talking about young children,
it is I'm looking at another definition, it is when
you have theory of mind, then you understand that other
people have different beliefs, needs, intentions, emotions, and thoughts than yours.
(04:55):
So if you understand other not everyone thinks like me,
then you're good with theory of mind. Yeah, but young
children don't have that. So here's what I think is
a classic example. I heard a colleague give this example,
and I said, oh, I love that example. It's like
the classic example. Here's the classic example. You hand a
young child a box that looks like a crayon box.
(05:18):
You say to the child, what do you think is
in that box? The child says crayons, and then you
ask them to open the box. They open the box
and inside are candles instead. So you then of course
talk with the child of how, oh, it's not crayons,
it's candles, and we look at them and we feel
them right. And then you say to the child, we're
(05:40):
going to close the box and give it to your
classmate Becky. What do you think Becky is going to
say is in this box? And the first child says candles?
Why would Becky think there are candles in there? It
looks like a crayon box. We know that Becky is
going to say crayons, but the first child, who now
(06:03):
knows there's crayons in there, thinks everyone now knows there
are crayons in there, because I know it. Another example
of this that I heard, which was even more I
think illustrative of this, perhaps in a way, because candles
kind of look like crayons, so I'm gonna be even
more illustrative. This was the second person who talked about
(06:25):
this in my life gave this example. You hand a
child a box that looks like crayons, and it always
starts with crayons, because children know what a crayon box
looks like. Right, So you hand a child a box
that looks like crayons, and you say to them what's
in the box, and the child's going to say crayons.
And then you open the box and there is a
toy car inside, and you talk about how there's a
(06:46):
toy car inside, and then you say, let's close the
box and give it to your classmates.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Sam.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
What is Sam is going to say is in the box?
And the first child says a car. There's no way
Sam would think a car is in there. As this
child now knows the car's in there, again, the child
assumes everyone on earth now knows there's a car in
there in that.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Fascinating, pretty fascinating.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
So I think that speaks to something we've talked about
before in this podcast, which is their egocentrism.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
They only see the world through their own eyes and
this idea of.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Cat do other people have other thoughts and opinions and
perceptions than me?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Theory of mind? Right, So, Allison, you had a great example. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
So there's a boy in my class whose family is
from Peru. So they go to visit Peru once a
year and the trip is coming up. So he's been
talking a lot about Peru and he'll come up to
me be like, Hey, do you remember in Peru when
we do this. I'm like, yeah, no, I don't because
guess what, I've never been to Peru.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yes, you haven't. But he does this to me all day.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
He's like, oh, remember when we saw the monkeys on
the road in Peru? Like, no, I don't because I
wasn't there. But he really thinks I was there, even
though I've never been there and I've never.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Traveled with his family.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
He assumes that not just me, everyone in the class
has been to Peru and has experienced the same things
in Peru that he has and that we all remember them.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Okay, this reminds me because you're talking about the monkeys now.
I thought of another example of this.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I was talking to a child once who was had
been to a zoo and came back and was talking
about this visit to the zoo and used the pronoun wei. Right.
So the child said something like, then we saw the giraffes.
And I said, you and your family saw the giraffes
and he said so did you?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
No, No, no, I did, so, I said you.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I remember saying to him, I wasn't at the zoo
with you, and that baffled this child. I said, I
didn't see the giraffes because I wasn't at the zoo
and he was like.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
But you saw the giraffes with me, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
No, no, It's like it's like Peru all over again.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's like, no, I've never been. They really think that
you've been there.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I think he said something like, but you saw the
girafts too, That's what he said, Yeah, but you saw
the girafts too, And I said I didn't see the
girafts right, and he was like, you saw them too,
just kept saying it.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
They yet very because I think in the boy in
my class, he I think because his family is from Peru,
he thinks everyone's family is from Peru.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah, probably, so he doesn't understand that, like never been there,
most people have not been right, so like he doesn't
quite understand.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So when he's even talking to like another child, he's like, oh,
when we go to Peru, Remember when we went to Pru.
They're like, what what are you talking about? Like they
don't even know what Peru is. He knows what it
is because he goes. It's very relevant to his lip.
But they don't, and he gets kind of annoyed, like
what do you mean you don't know where that is?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
He's like, well, we're not all from there, you know,
so and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
But.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Don't we all?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think we all sometimes maintain some of this like right,
like if I have a particular point of view, I
will sometimes make the assumption that other people do too,
But no, they haven't had my life experience.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
They weren't, you know, you know, one of.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Very interesting things I had to learn as a program director.
And if you're listening to us or watching us in
you're a program director, you might relate to this.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I actually had to learn this lesson. I had to
have somebody tell me this.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I would go to conferences, and sometimes my staff came
with me when it was local conferences, but sometimes I
would go far for a conference. So I would go
to a professional conference and then bring back all sorts
of information about like the school and our staff and
what we could be doing. And I used to come
back very very excited about this new information and things
(10:47):
I wanted to change. And we know change is hard
for people, but I would come back like, we're going
to change this. This thing I saw is great, let's
and people would look at me like, what, I really.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Don't want to change that. I'm not agreeing.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I had a colleague once say to me, and it
was so true. I would come back so excited, and
this colleague said to me, you need to remember they
weren't at the conference with you, right, And I was like.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Wait what?
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And my colleagues said, it's important that when you go back,
you remember that they weren't at the conference with you,
so they're not going to be excited about it like you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And you're gonna have to phase this in a little bit.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
At a time, right, I was a grown adult, I know,
but she But I think this happens a lot because like,
if you experience something, you get excited and it motivates
you to want to.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Make these changes.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Right, But if other people didn't experience it, they're like, no,
you're just coming at me with this stuff, and I
don't see the same path because they weren't there with
you to see the path, right, So like you have
to bring them on the path with you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And that's that's why. And they still might not ever
join you on that journey, you know, because they didn't
experience it. Like it's you're right, you know, like.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
It's if so we we somehow and so ways a
little bit have to be reminded. But when I was reminded, Okay,
they weren't there with you. They didn't see this, they're
not as excited about it. When someone reminded me, very
nicely reminded me of that, then I was able to
take that and go, no, you're right, you're right, they
weren't with me, and.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm gonna have to go in slowly with this. But children,
they just can't now, are you No, you were you
know what you saw it too? You saw it too.
You saw too because we I think we have this ability.
Children do not, But sometimes I still think you need to.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Like So, if a child, and here's how it shows
up in our classrooms and at home. If a child
sees a new shiny toy and thinks sort of like
I want to play with that, they think that everyone
(12:49):
else thinks they should play with that, not them. Like
let's say I'm gonna go back to port Becky is
my example today. I don't know what go back to Becky.
So let's say there's a new toy in the room
and Becky sees it and thinks to herself, I really
want to play with that at free play. And then
free play comes and Becky goes over to use it,
(13:09):
but someone else is playing with it. That is frustrating
and baffling to Becky because if Becky thought I really
want to play with that at free play, she thinks
everybody else is thinking Becky should be playing with.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That one to get it, yeah, right, Becky shouldn't get it. Yeah.
And and if Sam, I'll pick on Sam again.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
If Sam is over there, then she doesn't understand because
Sam should have been thinking Becky wants to play with this,
Becky would play with this.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
For when really they're all thinking I want to play
with that, and it's all about that, And they're the
same thought, but it's about them.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
So each child is thinking about themselves, but they're thinking
everyone else thinks it about themselves. Yes, yes, I hope
that makes sense. So you know, let's say it's time
for a meal at home and the child is thinking,
I want pizza and you say, you know, for dinner.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I think I want some meat balls.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
They're gonna be like, no, you want pizza, you want pizza.
Whatever they're thinking, they think everybody thinks. And in today's world,
I think there are plenty of adults and that, folks,
is theory of mind. So what we have to understand
(14:32):
if a child has a thought and they think we're
thinking it right, or that their classmates are thinking it.
I think that helps us understand first their frustration when
people are not and second like how we need to
talk to them in a little more compassionate way because
this is this is so confusing to them. Here's an
(14:54):
example that I think many of you have experienced as well.
You're outside on the playground, right you're outside on the playground,
it's time to go in.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You're thinking time to go in?
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, right, yeah, but another child, there's a child out
there who's thinking, I would love.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
To spend all day on the playground.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I've had this happen too, where I'll say to
the children, Okay, you know it's almost time to let's
put the toys back in the toy cases or bins
or whatever we have out here, because it's almost time
to go in.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And I've had children look at me and say, you
don't want to go in?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yeah, And I'm like, we have to go in our
playground time is over. And they'll be like, but I
know you don't want to go in, and no, I
actually wanted to go in because it's hot and I'm
in the sun and I sunburn, and no, actually.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I want to go in.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So but when we say to them at certain ages,
actually I do want to go in, they can't.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Can It's hard for them?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
And should we be saying actually I was thinking we
should go in.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, I should say that.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The fact that they can't relate to it has to
be understandable, right.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Because I'm sitting here thinking like, how do we develop
this right, And I think possibly the way to develop
it is to be like, actually, no, I don't think that.
So they start to maybe realize like, oh, other people
so have thoughts, but are they able to even wrap
their head around that.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
So I'm looking at a resource online right now and
it talks about how this evolves over time and with experience.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Right, we have to give the children the time and
and that really, when you have theory of mind, they
it's sort of like a form of mind reading.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Yeah, like I can now predict what someone else is
thinking and saying, and that takes time and experience to
be able to do that. And another thing about theory
of mind is that allows us to predict behavior. If
children and don't have that yet, they can't predict the
reactions and behavior of the other people around them. So
(17:06):
that works two ways. Ready, they do something that is
outside the boundaries of rules in your classroom, they can't
predict how you're gonna think about that or react to that.
We as adults act surprised that they don't realize I'm
upset or write but no, they don't yet have the
capacity to predict how you are going to react to it.
(17:28):
So will they do that thing over and over. Yeah,
because then what they're learning is there is a predictability,
but they have to do things over and over to
get that predictability. And the other thing that that impacts
that they can't make predictions about other people's behavior or
feelings is you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Know when a child grabs it towy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
From another child and we're like, you know, that's gonna
make the other child mad. No they don't, No, no, no,
they don't. Oh, here's another example online.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I love this example. To a child.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
It's told that a box contains band aids, but when
the box is opened, it has crayons.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
It's always, always.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
So developing it, folks, is influenced by social interactions, parenting, education,
and practice, and it's dependent on the maturation of several
brain systems, so patience as their brains develop patience. I
(18:34):
hope this gave you a lot of food for thought,
and please do contact us.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
With your examples the theory of mind.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
We will happily share them if you do, if you
give us permission. If you don't give us permission, that's fine.
We know you sometimes have to maintain privacy. You would
go to how preschool teachers do it dot com to
the contact form, or send us a message on Facebook
and that'll pretty much do it. I also have a
professional Instagram and people sometimes message me there on the
Instagram my.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Name hand code. I don't know it is my full name.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
It's like AT, you know, the AT symbol whatever that is, uh,
Cindy terrabush. So yeah, if you're not sure how to
spell my name, you can go to the website or come.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
To YouTube, where it is now displayed so nicely.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Displayed for your viewing pleasure. In fact, my name is
now both on top and a bottom, and I probably
should get rid of the bottom one.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You don't need me twice, that's for sure.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
We don't need to Sindy's no, the world does not
need We will catch you next time on the podcast, folks,
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It. This is Alison Kenttos.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am an early childhood educator.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And this is Cindy tarror Bush. I am an early
childhood consultant.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
This podcast is for parents and early childhood professionals.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Let our experience and research based knowledge become your guide.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, preschool peeps, hie pee.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Last couple of episodes we've been recording us before. We're
recording these episodes just because people seem to be getting
a kickout.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We did it on a whim one day and we
got such positive feedback about it.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
So if you want to see us not recording a
podcast episode, but preparing to record a podcast episode, it's
really not a.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Lot of preparing.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
It's just gabbing and laughing and like randomly looking googling
things up.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, randomly. This is our lives. This is how we are. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
So check our Facebook page where we're posting these and
I forget where else we're hosting it, but definitely our
Facebook page, and you'll get to see the lack of magic.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Us behind the podcast. Yeah, real life house, not that
this isn't real life, no, yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I think that's the more professional real life us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
This is somewhat more professional professional, okaking of.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Which we we are going to behave more professionally because
people are listening to us all.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Over the place. We are people.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
People are listening to us all over the place.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So Allison, what are a couple of places we are
getting listened to? In Saint Lucia so cool, that's cool?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And Fairfield, Connecticut.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And I know we just shouted.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Out Connecticut a couple episodes ago because my cousins live
in the town.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
This is a different time.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
We wanted to have like a little like Connecticut competation.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So in the past I think we shouted out Vernon, Vernon.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yes, Okay, my cousin lives in Vernon High again see
shouting out again.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
See so Vernon, Connecticut was shout out.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
And then we go into the statistics today to figure
out who gets shouted out. Connecticut is number one, and
so I was like, Connecticut's number one. I go into
Connecticut and what we have now is Fairfield, Connecticut in
the number one spot.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
In Connecticut, Vernon number two.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I said, interesting, I wonder if there's a rivalry there,
because I'm pretty sure the people in Vernon are like
the people I know maybe I don't know, maybe not,
maybe not, they're not maybe not.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Their children all grown ups. They have no reason to
look at me.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I mean, you know, this way of thinking reminds me
of our topic today a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Oh okay, that what a good transition.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Yeah, we're here today to talk about something that I
think a lot of people have witnessed to work with
and raise young children, but not everybody knows what it's called.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Or the impact of it.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Really true, right, and ironically, or somewhat ironically, in my
life in the past week, it came up twice in
two different places, by two different people who don't know
each other. It was mentioned twice, so I just sort
of thought that was a little bit ironic, and therefore,
obviously the universe was telling us to talk about it.
(03:19):
So we're going to talk about theory of mind. And
first we're going to give you the formal definition, and
then well, I'll give you an example of what it
looks like in real life, and then Alison has an example.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And I want to encourage you all to think of your.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Own examples of theory of mind, because I know you
have them, and then send them to us either on
that Facebook page or through the contact form on our website,
which we get a lot of contact from, even more
than Facebook. And if Alison would kindly move her head
a little bit, if you're on YouTube either way, if
(03:54):
you're on YouTube, you'll see a QR code.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
You'll see a QR code that you can hold your
camera up to on your device, and that will take
you to what's basically a virtually business virtual business card
for this podcast, where you get the link to our website,
our Facebook page, and all other kinds of goodies.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
There's goodies goodies there. So you can even just go
to YouTube to.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Check that QR code, and you know, if you have
us on on YouTube, you can just listen after that
that if you prefer to listen.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
You don't have to be looking at usized though my
hair does look lovely today. All right, Back to theory
of mind. Back to theory of mind.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
So theory of mind, the definition is it's the ability
to understand and predict the mental state and thinking of
other people. And when when we're talking about young children,
it is I'm looking at another definition, it is when
you have theory of mind, then you understand that other
people have different beliefs, needs, intentions, emotions, and thoughts than yours.
(04:55):
So if you understand other not everyone thinks like me,
then you're good with theory of mind. Yeah, but young
children don't have that. So here's what I think is
a classic example. I heard a colleague give this example,
and I said, oh, I love that example. It's like
the classic example. Here's the classic example. You hand a
young child a box that looks like a crayon box.
(05:18):
You say to the child, what do you think is
in that box? The child says crayons, and then you
ask them to open the box. They open the box
and inside are candles instead. So you then of course
talk with the child of how, oh, it's not crayons,
it's candles, and we look at them and we feel
them right. And then you say to the child, we're
(05:40):
going to close the box and give it to your
classmate Becky. What do you think Becky is going to
say is in this box? And the first child says candles?
Why would Becky think there are candles in there? It
looks like a crayon box. We know that Becky is
going to say crayons, but the first child, who now
(06:03):
knows there's crayons in there, thinks everyone now knows there
are crayons in there, because I know it. Another example
of this that I heard, which was even more I
think illustrative of this, perhaps in a way, because candles
kind of look like crayons, so I'm gonna be even
more illustrative. This was the second person who talked about
(06:25):
this in my life gave this example. You hand a
child a box that looks like crayons, and it always
starts with crayons, because children know what a crayon box
looks like. Right, So you hand a child a box
that looks like crayons, and you say to them what's
in the box, and the child's going to say crayons.
And then you open the box and there is a
toy car inside, and you talk about how there's a
(06:46):
toy car inside, and then you say, let's close the
box and give it to your classmates.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Sam.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
What is Sam is going to say is in the box?
And the first child says a car. There's no way
Sam would think a car is in there. As this
child now knows the car's in there, again, the child
assumes everyone on earth now knows there's a car in
there in that.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Fascinating, pretty fascinating.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
So I think that speaks to something we've talked about
before in this podcast, which is their egocentrism.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
They only see the world through their own eyes and
this idea of.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Cat do other people have other thoughts and opinions and
perceptions than me?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Theory of mind? Right, So, Allison, you had a great example. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
So there's a boy in my class whose family is
from Peru. So they go to visit Peru once a
year and the trip is coming up. So he's been
talking a lot about Peru and he'll come up to
me be like, Hey, do you remember in Peru when
we do this. I'm like, yeah, no, I don't because
guess what, I've never been to Peru.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yes, you haven't. But he does this to me all day.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
He's like, oh, remember when we saw the monkeys on
the road in Peru? Like, no, I don't because I
wasn't there. But he really thinks I was there, even
though I've never been there and I've never.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Traveled with his family.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
He assumes that not just me, everyone in the class
has been to Peru and has experienced the same things
in Peru that he has and that we all remember them.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Okay, this reminds me because you're talking about the monkeys now.
I thought of another example of this.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I was talking to a child once who was had
been to a zoo and came back and was talking
about this visit to the zoo and used the pronoun wei. Right.
So the child said something like, then we saw the giraffes.
And I said, you and your family saw the giraffes
and he said so did you?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
No, No, no, I did, so, I said you.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I remember saying to him, I wasn't at the zoo
with you, and that baffled this child. I said, I
didn't see the giraffes because I wasn't at the zoo
and he was like.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
But you saw the giraffes with me, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
No, no, It's like it's like Peru all over again.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's like, no, I've never been. They really think that
you've been there.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I think he said something like, but you saw the
girafts too, That's what he said, Yeah, but you saw
the girafts too, And I said I didn't see the
girafts right, and he was like, you saw them too,
just kept saying it.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
They yet very because I think in the boy in
my class, he I think because his family is from Peru,
he thinks everyone's family is from Peru.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah, probably, so he doesn't understand that, like never been there,
most people have not been right, so like he doesn't
quite understand.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So when he's even talking to like another child, he's like, oh,
when we go to Peru, Remember when we went to Pru.
They're like, what what are you talking about? Like they
don't even know what Peru is. He knows what it
is because he goes. It's very relevant to his lip.
But they don't, and he gets kind of annoyed, like
what do you mean you don't know where that is?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
He's like, well, we're not all from there, you know,
so and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
But.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Don't we all?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think we all sometimes maintain some of this like right,
like if I have a particular point of view, I
will sometimes make the assumption that other people do too,
But no, they haven't had my life experience.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
They weren't, you know, you know, one of.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Very interesting things I had to learn as a program director.
And if you're listening to us or watching us in
you're a program director, you might relate to this.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I actually had to learn this lesson. I had to
have somebody tell me this.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I would go to conferences, and sometimes my staff came
with me when it was local conferences, but sometimes I
would go far for a conference. So I would go
to a professional conference and then bring back all sorts
of information about like the school and our staff and
what we could be doing. And I used to come
back very very excited about this new information and things
(10:47):
I wanted to change. And we know change is hard
for people, but I would come back like, we're going
to change this. This thing I saw is great, let's
and people would look at me like, what, I really.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Don't want to change that. I'm not agreeing.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I had a colleague once say to me, and it
was so true. I would come back so excited, and
this colleague said to me, you need to remember they
weren't at the conference with you, right, And I was like.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Wait what?
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And my colleagues said, it's important that when you go back,
you remember that they weren't at the conference with you,
so they're not going to be excited about it like you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And you're gonna have to phase this in a little bit.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
At a time, right, I was a grown adult, I know,
but she But I think this happens a lot because like,
if you experience something, you get excited and it motivates
you to want to.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Make these changes.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Right, But if other people didn't experience it, they're like, no,
you're just coming at me with this stuff, and I
don't see the same path because they weren't there with
you to see the path, right, So like you have
to bring them on the path with you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And that's that's why. And they still might not ever
join you on that journey, you know, because they didn't
experience it. Like it's you're right, you know, like.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
It's if so we we somehow and so ways a
little bit have to be reminded. But when I was reminded, Okay,
they weren't there with you. They didn't see this, they're
not as excited about it. When someone reminded me, very
nicely reminded me of that, then I was able to
take that and go, no, you're right, you're right, they
weren't with me, and.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm gonna have to go in slowly with this. But children,
they just can't now, are you No, you were you
know what you saw it too? You saw it too.
You saw too because we I think we have this ability.
Children do not, But sometimes I still think you need to.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Like So, if a child, and here's how it shows
up in our classrooms and at home. If a child
sees a new shiny toy and thinks sort of like
I want to play with that, they think that everyone
(12:49):
else thinks they should play with that, not them. Like
let's say I'm gonna go back to port Becky is
my example today. I don't know what go back to Becky.
So let's say there's a new toy in the room
and Becky sees it and thinks to herself, I really
want to play with that at free play. And then
free play comes and Becky goes over to use it,
(13:09):
but someone else is playing with it. That is frustrating
and baffling to Becky because if Becky thought I really
want to play with that at free play, she thinks
everybody else is thinking Becky should be playing with.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That one to get it, yeah, right, Becky shouldn't get it. Yeah.
And and if Sam, I'll pick on Sam again.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
If Sam is over there, then she doesn't understand because
Sam should have been thinking Becky wants to play with this,
Becky would play with this.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
For when really they're all thinking I want to play
with that, and it's all about that, And they're the
same thought, but it's about them.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
So each child is thinking about themselves, but they're thinking
everyone else thinks it about themselves. Yes, yes, I hope
that makes sense. So you know, let's say it's time
for a meal at home and the child is thinking,
I want pizza and you say, you know, for dinner.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I think I want some meat balls.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
They're gonna be like, no, you want pizza, you want pizza.
Whatever they're thinking, they think everybody thinks. And in today's world,
I think there are plenty of adults and that, folks,
is theory of mind. So what we have to understand
(14:32):
if a child has a thought and they think we're
thinking it right, or that their classmates are thinking it.
I think that helps us understand first their frustration when
people are not and second like how we need to
talk to them in a little more compassionate way because
this is this is so confusing to them. Here's an
(14:54):
example that I think many of you have experienced as well.
You're outside on the playground, right you're outside on the playground,
it's time to go in.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You're thinking time to go in?
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, right, yeah, but another child, there's a child out
there who's thinking, I would love.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
To spend all day on the playground.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I've had this happen too, where I'll say to
the children, Okay, you know it's almost time to let's
put the toys back in the toy cases or bins
or whatever we have out here, because it's almost time
to go in.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And I've had children look at me and say, you
don't want to go in?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yeah, And I'm like, we have to go in our
playground time is over. And they'll be like, but I
know you don't want to go in, and no, I
actually wanted to go in because it's hot and I'm
in the sun and I sunburn, and no, actually.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I want to go in.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So but when we say to them at certain ages,
actually I do want to go in, they can't.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Can It's hard for them?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
And should we be saying actually I was thinking we
should go in.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, I should say that.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The fact that they can't relate to it has to
be understandable, right.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Because I'm sitting here thinking like, how do we develop
this right, And I think possibly the way to develop
it is to be like, actually, no, I don't think that.
So they start to maybe realize like, oh, other people
so have thoughts, but are they able to even wrap
their head around that.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
So I'm looking at a resource online right now and
it talks about how this evolves over time and with experience.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Right, we have to give the children the time and
and that really, when you have theory of mind, they
it's sort of like a form of mind reading.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Yeah, like I can now predict what someone else is
thinking and saying, and that takes time and experience to
be able to do that. And another thing about theory
of mind is that allows us to predict behavior. If
children and don't have that yet, they can't predict the
reactions and behavior of the other people around them. So
(17:06):
that works two ways. Ready, they do something that is
outside the boundaries of rules in your classroom, they can't
predict how you're gonna think about that or react to that.
We as adults act surprised that they don't realize I'm
upset or write but no, they don't yet have the
capacity to predict how you are going to react to it.
(17:28):
So will they do that thing over and over. Yeah,
because then what they're learning is there is a predictability,
but they have to do things over and over to
get that predictability. And the other thing that that impacts
that they can't make predictions about other people's behavior or
feelings is you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Know when a child grabs it towy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
From another child and we're like, you know, that's gonna
make the other child mad. No they don't, No, no, no,
they don't. Oh, here's another example online.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I love this example. To a child.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
It's told that a box contains band aids, but when
the box is opened, it has crayons.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
It's always, always.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
So developing it, folks, is influenced by social interactions, parenting, education,
and practice, and it's dependent on the maturation of several
brain systems, so patience as their brains develop patience. I
(18:34):
hope this gave you a lot of food for thought,
and please do contact us.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
With your examples the theory of mind.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
We will happily share them if you do, if you
give us permission. If you don't give us permission, that's fine.
We know you sometimes have to maintain privacy. You would
go to how preschool teachers do it dot com to
the contact form, or send us a message on Facebook
and that'll pretty much do it. I also have a
professional Instagram and people sometimes message me there on the
Instagram my.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Name hand code. I don't know it is my full name.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
It's like AT, you know, the AT symbol whatever that is, uh,
Cindy terrabush. So yeah, if you're not sure how to
spell my name, you can go to the website or come.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
To YouTube, where it is now displayed so nicely.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Displayed for your viewing pleasure. In fact, my name is
now both on top and a bottom, and I probably
should get rid of the bottom one.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You don't need me twice, that's for sure.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
We don't need to Sindy's no, the world does not
need We will catch you next time on the podcast, folks,
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