November 24, 2025 • 23 mins
When children fight, everyone is struggling. We have been told for years to "attend to the victim," which is one piece of what is needed. The aggressor needs you, too! Join Cindy and Alison for a discussion about how we can care for the aggressor and help them, too.
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- Learn more about Cindy's work, including professional development, family education, and consulting opportunities: https://hihello.com/hi/cindyterebush-RXMBKA
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Cindy, I'm Alison, and we have a combined fifty
five years of experience working with children, families, and experts
in early education.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We are not random influence.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
No, we are not. Whether you are new or have
been our podcast peeps since twenty eighteen, we are thrilled
you found us yet another Monday. Did I start the
last one that way? It's another Monday, Preschool Peeks. Happy Monday,
Happy Monday, everybody, Welcome back to the podcast. This is
(00:35):
sort of a special Monday because in the United States
it is this is releasing on Thanksgiving week. Yes, so
we do want to take this opportunity to say thank
you to all of you, our preschool peeps, for coming
listening recommending us. I have found us recommended on Reddit
to people.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That was so cool. Not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I welco up to that information.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This morning, I was like, oh, yay, there's you know
there sub subreddit subreddits. There's subreddits for ECE professionals, and
I think it was the EC professional subreddit where I
just sort of happened along. Someone asked for recommendations for
podcasts for early learners and I was like, oh, I
wonder what people recommended, and they recommended us. That was
(01:20):
kind of cool cool, So thank you for doing that,
for recommending us. Please go on places and recommend us.
We would love that. Uh. And you know we always
say tell your friends and neighbors, but also apparently you
can tell just random strangers and places like Reddit.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, we also had this whole episode with your son
Michael about how neighborhoods and communities are different now because
you have the whole Internet as your community.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So please it's all connecting.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And please know during this Thanksgiving week in the United States,
how very very thankful we are to still be doing
this podcast, which is unbelievable to us, and to have
so many people either tell me when they meet me
or email us or send us contact messages and support
what we hope is good things we're trying to put
(02:08):
out in the world. We're trying to put out good stuff.
So thank you very much for being our preschool peeps.
We will be thinking about you on Thursday. Yeah, yeah, okay,
And we are also super thankful, especially to two locations
that Allison is going to shout out.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yes, we are shouting out Morocco today, so hello, and
thank you for being here. And also another state that
we have never shouted out before, and I don't know
how that.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Happened, but here it is New Mexico. Hello, thank you
for being here.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Every time you say, never shout out before. I think
we might have in those earlier episodes when we first
started doing this, but if you haven't binged us, you
wouldn't know that. We haven't said it years ago, we
haven't said it in a while. So thank you very
much people in Morocco and people in New Mexico for
being among our preschool peeps. We will especially think of
you on Thursday. How about that and all the other
(02:58):
places we have shouted out And today we have a
topic that it you know, it's sort of related to
something maybe that we started to say in the last episode,
sort of like it's adjacent. It's not fully related. It's
kind of topic adjacent, but a different perspective on when
(03:20):
children are having a social struggle. Right, so, for a
long time and still today, some of the advice that
has been given out is that when you have a
child who has been aggressive with another child, that the
thing to do is ignore the aggressor. Yes, And by
(03:41):
ignoring the aggressor, I mean turn your back on them.
H spend an extended amount of time talking to the
victim first. You are going to attend to the victim
first to see if they are hurt. Okay, I need
to say that. It's disclaimer. I'm not saying don't check
on the victim first. That's not what I'm saying. I'm
saying you need to check on the victim to see
(04:02):
if they are hurt. But then we need to shift
our attention and attend to the aggressor. We should not
be turning our backs. They need to know they're still
in our sight, and we need to go from the
victim to the childhood is aggressive as quickly as possible,
is what the current research is showing. Not going I'm
(04:27):
not going to talk to you until or you need
to go sit over there and disconnecting from them. Not
I'm going to spend ten minutes on this victim when
they really only required four. Yeah, right, not that sort
of advice. And instead we're going to turn and we're
going to attend to the aggressor because ignoring them spending
(04:52):
an extended amount of time with the victim beyond what
they need. Sending them from us does not address the
issue fast enough.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I don't think it addresses the issue at all. Like,
when you're ignoring that issue, how are they supposed to
learn from what happened.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
One of the things they can learn from us about
what happened is a little bit of empathy. And we
need to keep in mind that when there's a situation
where a child has expressed themselves through aggressive behavior, that
that child is also struggling in some way. So you
have a victim who is struggling because they're the victim
(05:32):
and we need to talk to them about that, but
the aggressor is also struggling. They don't use aggression over
and over and over again, especially unless it's filling a need.
The child has a need, and so in order for
me to model empathy, I need to remember that and
(05:54):
remember that that child is struggling, and get to them
as soon as possible too. And you know what happens
when you don't get to them as soon as possible.
Whatever caused them to do what they did aggressively, which
could be anger or frustration. Most of the time, it
just ramps up.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I feel like it makes them angrier.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it ramps up.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right, So like you're ignoring they had an episode, an issue,
something happened to cause them to be aggressive, and now
you're ignoring them.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And so now they're even angrier because now they're being ignored.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And listen, we know there are children who are looking
for attention and it's because they can't figure out how
to get it in a crowd of fifteen children in
your class, they just can't figure out how to get
your attention in better ways. And then once they get
your attention a few times from less desirable behaviors, they
will just continue those behaviors because it worked, right, But
that doesn't mean they're not struggling with something. That child
(06:48):
is struggling. Their behavior should be telling us I couldn't
figure this out there. I had no other tools in
my box to use, and that's why I pushed, hit, shoved, grabbed,
pulled hair, spit right, Because I think.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Going back a couple sentences ago of what you said
is I think there is this misconception that when a
child is acting aggressively, they're doing it only for attention, right,
And if you listen to our previous episode, I think
it's because people are not making their feelings the feelings
(07:26):
of the aggressor be fact right, they're doing it for attention.
Therefore ignore it because then they'll try, you know, they
won't get the attention that way. And I think it's
different than that. You know, they're having a feeling. The
only way they know how to do this feeling or
process it or manage it right now is to be aggressive. Yeah,
(07:47):
and you're not addressing the feeling because you're just assuming
here you wants attention, and that's not that's not necessarily
the reason that they are doing it.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know, we said in the last episode their feelings
are facts. That's the title. If you didn't if you
didn't listen, go listen or watch or what however you
because they do connect with us. I do now even
see a bigger relationship because I think what we do
sometimes is we treat the victims feelings like facts, but
not the aggressor. So both of these children are having
(08:19):
big feelings. Yes, one child's big feelings are not more
legitimate than another child's big feelings. They just expressed them
in different ways. One way more palatable to an adult,
the other way not so much so. As you're talking,
I'm thinking, yeah, we treat the victims feelings like a
fact in that.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Situation are valid and the aggressor's feelings are not, so
let's dismiss it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So I want to give the disclaimer again that I'm
not saying ignore the victim. You go, you check on
the victim, You make sure that whatever needs to be
done for their health and safety is done. Right. You
can be holding the victim and at the same time
turn to the aggressor and talk to them about their
feelings and we said last time, feelings or facts to say,
I know you were frustrated because you wanted what she had.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, And I feel like a lot of times what
I do is I'll talk to them both at the
same time, like I make sure the victims okay. But
the only way to really solve the problem is that
they're all there, all the people who are in that
situation are there, because if I'm talking separately, then it's
almost like a game of telephone like, oh, hey.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Johnny said you did this, Is that true?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Okay, let me go talk to not like if you're
all there, and if you want to teach children to
talk to each other about the problems, either during or
after the fact, or before the incident happens.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You gotta get them together.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Can we talk for a second. It's related, I promise
she's looking at me. Can we talk for a second
about how very much we were taught to ignore? Really, children, ignore?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It was a big part. Ignore.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Ignore this behavior, Ignore the feelings, Ignore the aggressor. Ignore
the child whose behavior you don't approve of. Ignore the
child who's whining. The child is whining because the child
is having an emotion. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, it's a lot of ignoring.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It is, and it makes you feel when you think
about it as an adult, how you feel when people
ignore you. It is so invalidating, isn't it. You know,
even to not acknowledge, you know, a form of ignoring
and ignoring the aggressor is to not acknowledge how they
were feeling. So, you know, even when let's say you
(10:42):
I want to relate it to adults, Even when you
as an adult, let's say you're having a big feeling
and someone basically ignores that feeling and just keeps going
back to but this, but that, but this, you can't
even hear that they may be making sense because your
feelings and ignore it right.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Well, you know what happens when you ignore and continue
to dismiss people's feelings is eventually they stop sharing their
feelings with you, and then they internalize it all and
then all sorts of turmoil could happen, or they don't.
They don't trust you as one of their people anymore
because you're like, well, I can't tell her my feelings,
so what's the point. And you lose friendships over this,
or relationships end or whatever happens because you are not
(11:24):
validating and making sure my feelings are.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Heard as facts, right, So why would I share them
with you?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So let's go back to talking about the aggressor. Yeah,
in a classroom situation, Yeah, the children are getting ready
to go outside. You don't not even know why, but
you see one child kick another child. Yeah, the child
who kicked the other child. That child needs to be
(11:52):
addressed and their feelings need to be addressed, and that
child is struggling and that's why they kick the other child.
And so I'm going to go to the child who
was kicked and I'm gonna say, like we do, Oh
my goodness, are you okay? Let me see your leg right?
I am gonna do that I'm gonna go let me
see your leg. Yes, I might say to someone we
need to get ice, or I'm gonna call for ice,
(12:15):
And then I'm turning right away to the other child
and saying, I see that you are frustrated or mad
because you kicked, and talk about what made them frustrated
or mad and what they should do instead of kicking,
and remind them that we have a promise in this
space to keep each other safe. Right, that's one of
(12:37):
our rules. We have a promise. A rule is like
a promise, We're gonna keep each other safe. So I
think the amount of time we spend on the victim
is often exaggerated, Yes, because I find so many adults
(12:59):
are like the other child. The aggressor needs to see
this isn't going to get my attention, when actually it
must get your attention. Their feelings must get your attention.
If they're looking for your attention, they need your attention.
You just want to give it in better ways when
that's not happening, And how on earth are they going
to learn empathy? The aggressor isn't one of the So
a child behaves in an aggressive manner. Often when I'm
(13:23):
trying to teach that child is empathy for the other people.
Like when you hurt, that hurts her, When you hit
that hurts her skin, when you kick that hurts him
when right, I'm trying to teach them that empathy that
other people have feelings and that their feelings matter. That's empathy.
Other people have feelings and their feelings matter.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I can't teach a child that unless I model it
to them about them, because they have an egocentric point
of view. So if empathy is other people have feelings
and their feelings matter, then you must turn to the
child who exhibited the aggressive behavior acknowledge those feelings because
they matter. Yes, And when you do that, you are
(14:09):
demonstrating what you actually need to teach this child who
behaves aggressively, which is other people have feelings. Right. We
have to acknowledge that other people have feelings and we
have to respect that.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And you have like, if you don't want the aggressor
to continue to be aggressive, then you need to teach
the aggressor how to manage their own feelings, not just
through empathy, but like, if you're feeling frustrated instead of kicking,
(14:45):
this is what you can do instead, and if you're not,
if you're fully ignoring the aggressor, they're never going to
learn what to do.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And no, they're just gonna get more frustrated. And by
the time you talk to them about it, they're not interested.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
They're more interested anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They're just not interested anymore, and so they're not attending
to the conversation. And then that's that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Understand how ignoring is still being taught in several professional
developments that I've been in, you know, so like and
it's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You know, there's a difference sometimes with children so that
they know I'm not ignoring them. Sometimes they have to
calm down. Yeah, right, and I can't address it yet
or whatever. I will do something like if the top
child is okay with it, I will just put my
hand on them, Yes, I'll put my hand on their
armor back, so they know I'm right here. I'm still
with you, right, I'm with you. And sometimes I have
(15:37):
to wait to have the conversation. That's different than ignoring. Yes,
I think we need to redefine ignoring. Maybe maybe take
ignoring out of the vocabulary and just talk about how
we are going to attend to the children yes, because
it is not my job to only spend the most
of the time attending to the children whose behavior I like,
it's my job to attend to everyone's social emotion.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
You're only attending to the children whose feelings you understand.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, Sometimes I can't relate to relate to the aggressive
necessary me neither, I can't.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So let me just ignore it, becuse I don't have
I don't know how to deal with that. But I
understand your victim mentality. I get that, you know, like I.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Get you as a victim it's like to be.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
A victim, but I don't necessarily know what it's like
to be an aggressor. So like, maybe if I just
ignore that look away. Yet, No, that's not how it works.
And like maybe if you want to grow as a
person as a teacher, you'll you'll try to put yourself
in the eyes of the aggressor. Yeah, you know, so
then you can learn more about that child and just
about emotions in general.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
So time on the victim, whatever time they need, really,
but not beyond what they need, because we tend to
go beyond what they need. Yeah, I also have been
in situations and some of you may be thinking this
where I'm right near where the incident happened. So I'll
go over to the victim and say you're okay, let
me see your leg, And then another adult in the
room will come over and say I've got her, so
(17:06):
that I could deal with the childhood behavior was aggressive
or vice versa. But I have had people come over
and say I've got her, and they take the victim
right so that I can have a conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I think that when we pay so much attention to
the victim, that it's teaching children to be victims.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh my god, that's so deep, I know, but they're
getting teaches a victim mentality.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yes, that they're getting so much attention.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
This is a way I can get attention, possibly by
being a victim. And now I'm going to you know,
like and you don't want them to have that vic mentality.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I remember. So I worked one time in an environment
where I worked with children from all ages, preschool through
high school. I remember a teenager once who definitely had
a victim mentality, and when she wasn't a victim, she
was hurt and so like she needed us to always
be feeling bad for her, even if it was just
(18:07):
like like she would cut. She was always hurt, like
she I can't even describe it to you when nothing
was happening, you know. So she would come in with
like an expandage on and we would say, oh, my goodness,
what happened and she would say, oh, you know, I
twisted my arm. Funny. And I remember sometimes saying to
(18:29):
her parents, you know, is she okay? She said she
would tist her arm, and the parents just sort of going, no,
this is just what she does. She's fine. There isn't
even any swelling. So I don't it was very deep
in that child that, yeah, I need everyone's sympathy or empathy.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, Like I don't want to say, like having a
victim mentality is that simple, because I think in this
child's it might have been very deep.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And then in many reasons for it.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But there is also other victim mentalities where you're just
constantly paint yourself as a victim of what everyone around
you is doing. Narcissistic people do that. Does it create
a victim mentality because the children at very young ages
are getting the lion's share of the attention for being
a victim. Yeah, And that's potentially true. And I think
we can all think.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
About it after this vice because if we're saying, oh,
the aggressor always wants attention, right, if that's what the
mentality has been for decades, and that's why professional.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Developments still say ignore them.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But now the children are like, well, wait a minute,
I can get hurt and get a lot of attention
that way, maybe because I'm getting ten minutes of attention
when I only needed one.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We all know that, we all know that there are
children who will act like the victim after they were
actually the perpetrator of the incident. Right. They will do
something that they know is going to irritate another child.
They sometimes they are I often tell people, if you
didn't see the incident with your own eyes, don't take
anybody's word for what happened. Just a deal with the
feelings and the hurt and the injury, because I can't assume,
(20:03):
I can't even assume when I did see it that
something didn't happen before it. That's true because very often
the victim is actually the perpetrate. That is true, right,
that is true. I've seen lots of victim perpetrators in
my time.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, But I think that's why you also have to
attend to the aggressor, because that aggressor might be like.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
She hit me first, Yeah, you know, you would never
know that. Seriously, if you didn't talk to that, like
she pulled my hair, you didn't see that.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I didn't see that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah of course I hit her, you know, like like
you're cann't defend yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So like, let's remember the childhood we think is the
aggressor might not have been the original aggressor even so,
just attend to them or.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Sometimes it's like not physical aggression, like verbal yeah they Hey,
she whispered in my ear that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I was whatever, I can't go to her house. Yeah,
she's not my best friend anymore, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
She's not inviting me to her birthday party.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Right right, so like and it made me that, okay,
so like, but if.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
You're not talking to the aggressor at all, you might
not even realize that there really be very quiet about
it aggressive.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Well, it reminds me there was an old TV game
show which one was it Wait, what's my line? Will
the real so and so please stand up? Sometimes? So
on what's my line? For those of you who don't
know what you can watch it on YouTube by the
way the old old watch the old black and white episodes,
they're the best. So someone would come on, three people
(21:26):
would come on, and they would all claim to be
the same person with the same career, and it was
the panel of celebrities would ask them questions and try
to determine who is the real person.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I think they just redid this show.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They might have, but it's never as good as the
original origin. Go back to the black and white episodes
from like the fifties and sixties. So they would say,
they would question the people and then they had to
name who they thought the real person was, and then
the host of the show would say, would the real
Cindy terror Bush please stand up? And they would all protest,
(22:01):
shuffle and pretend to stand, and then the real person
would stand. And I feel that way about these aggressive
situations sometimes I want to say, with the real aggressor,
please stand up, because I don't necessarily have that right
based on what I saw or heard. Yeah, so we're
going to attend to the victim for as long as necessary,
and then we are going to attend to the aggressor
(22:22):
who we did not send away from us, who we
did not turn our back to who in fact, we
might have a hand on. Yes, while we're talking to
the victim. Yes, if they're okay with that. Yeah, all right, folks,
I hope this gives you thought. I think we all
need to go back and think about that whole victim
mentality thing. If you have thoughts, let us know. You
know how to get to us. We said it at
(22:43):
the end of the last episode, So if you want
to know how to get to us, you can go
to the last episode and listen, or you can go
to YouTube where there's a QR code. Allison's going to
move her head a little bit. There's a QR code
on YouTube at the end of the episode on YouTube
that you can scan with the camera on your mobile
device and then click on the website at names. It'll
(23:03):
take you to all our links. And if you do
go to YouTube, please do like and subscribe. Yes, that
would be great. Comment. We get comments on YouTube sometimes
I get excited. I comment back. I actually do comment back.
So I also and Alison and I both answer people
on Facebook and through our contact form and all that
you will actually interact with us, So please feel free
(23:26):
to do that. Maybe not the hate mail, We could
live without that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's something we do kind of ignore.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, not gonna lie. We do ignore that because we
can't even sit face to face with you and talk
about it. So all right, folks, We will catch you
next time on the How Preschool Teachers Do It Podcast.
Catch you next time, fie peep,
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Cindy, I'm Alison, and we have a combined fifty
five years of experience working with children, families, and experts
in early education.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We are not random influence.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
No, we are not. Whether you are new or have
been our podcast peeps since twenty eighteen, we are thrilled
you found us yet another Monday. Did I start the
last one that way? It's another Monday, Preschool Peeks. Happy Monday,
Happy Monday, everybody, Welcome back to the podcast. This is
(00:35):
sort of a special Monday because in the United States
it is this is releasing on Thanksgiving week. Yes, so
we do want to take this opportunity to say thank
you to all of you, our preschool peeps, for coming
listening recommending us. I have found us recommended on Reddit
to people.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That was so cool. Not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I welco up to that information.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This morning, I was like, oh, yay, there's you know
there sub subreddit subreddits. There's subreddits for ECE professionals, and
I think it was the EC professional subreddit where I
just sort of happened along. Someone asked for recommendations for
podcasts for early learners and I was like, oh, I
wonder what people recommended, and they recommended us. That was
(01:20):
kind of cool cool, So thank you for doing that,
for recommending us. Please go on places and recommend us.
We would love that. Uh. And you know we always
say tell your friends and neighbors, but also apparently you
can tell just random strangers and places like Reddit.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, we also had this whole episode with your son
Michael about how neighborhoods and communities are different now because
you have the whole Internet as your community.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So please it's all connecting.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And please know during this Thanksgiving week in the United States,
how very very thankful we are to still be doing
this podcast, which is unbelievable to us, and to have
so many people either tell me when they meet me
or email us or send us contact messages and support
what we hope is good things we're trying to put
(02:08):
out in the world. We're trying to put out good stuff.
So thank you very much for being our preschool peeps.
We will be thinking about you on Thursday. Yeah, yeah, okay,
And we are also super thankful, especially to two locations
that Allison is going to shout out.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yes, we are shouting out Morocco today, so hello, and
thank you for being here. And also another state that
we have never shouted out before, and I don't know
how that.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Happened, but here it is New Mexico. Hello, thank you
for being here.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Every time you say, never shout out before. I think
we might have in those earlier episodes when we first
started doing this, but if you haven't binged us, you
wouldn't know that. We haven't said it years ago, we
haven't said it in a while. So thank you very
much people in Morocco and people in New Mexico for
being among our preschool peeps. We will especially think of
you on Thursday. How about that and all the other
(02:58):
places we have shouted out And today we have a
topic that it you know, it's sort of related to
something maybe that we started to say in the last episode,
sort of like it's adjacent. It's not fully related. It's
kind of topic adjacent, but a different perspective on when
(03:20):
children are having a social struggle. Right, so, for a
long time and still today, some of the advice that
has been given out is that when you have a
child who has been aggressive with another child, that the
thing to do is ignore the aggressor. Yes, And by
(03:41):
ignoring the aggressor, I mean turn your back on them.
H spend an extended amount of time talking to the
victim first. You are going to attend to the victim
first to see if they are hurt. Okay, I need
to say that. It's disclaimer. I'm not saying don't check
on the victim first. That's not what I'm saying. I'm
saying you need to check on the victim to see
(04:02):
if they are hurt. But then we need to shift
our attention and attend to the aggressor. We should not
be turning our backs. They need to know they're still
in our sight, and we need to go from the
victim to the childhood is aggressive as quickly as possible,
is what the current research is showing. Not going I'm
(04:27):
not going to talk to you until or you need
to go sit over there and disconnecting from them. Not
I'm going to spend ten minutes on this victim when
they really only required four. Yeah, right, not that sort
of advice. And instead we're going to turn and we're
going to attend to the aggressor because ignoring them spending
(04:52):
an extended amount of time with the victim beyond what
they need. Sending them from us does not address the
issue fast enough.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I don't think it addresses the issue at all. Like,
when you're ignoring that issue, how are they supposed to
learn from what happened.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
One of the things they can learn from us about
what happened is a little bit of empathy. And we
need to keep in mind that when there's a situation
where a child has expressed themselves through aggressive behavior, that
that child is also struggling in some way. So you
have a victim who is struggling because they're the victim
(05:32):
and we need to talk to them about that, but
the aggressor is also struggling. They don't use aggression over
and over and over again, especially unless it's filling a need.
The child has a need, and so in order for
me to model empathy, I need to remember that and
(05:54):
remember that that child is struggling, and get to them
as soon as possible too. And you know what happens
when you don't get to them as soon as possible.
Whatever caused them to do what they did aggressively, which
could be anger or frustration. Most of the time, it
just ramps up.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I feel like it makes them angrier.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it ramps up.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right, So like you're ignoring they had an episode, an issue,
something happened to cause them to be aggressive, and now
you're ignoring them.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And so now they're even angrier because now they're being ignored.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And listen, we know there are children who are looking
for attention and it's because they can't figure out how
to get it in a crowd of fifteen children in
your class, they just can't figure out how to get
your attention in better ways. And then once they get
your attention a few times from less desirable behaviors, they
will just continue those behaviors because it worked, right, But
that doesn't mean they're not struggling with something. That child
(06:48):
is struggling. Their behavior should be telling us I couldn't
figure this out there. I had no other tools in
my box to use, and that's why I pushed, hit, shoved, grabbed,
pulled hair, spit right, Because I think.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Going back a couple sentences ago of what you said
is I think there is this misconception that when a
child is acting aggressively, they're doing it only for attention, right,
And if you listen to our previous episode, I think
it's because people are not making their feelings the feelings
(07:26):
of the aggressor be fact right, they're doing it for attention.
Therefore ignore it because then they'll try, you know, they
won't get the attention that way. And I think it's
different than that. You know, they're having a feeling. The
only way they know how to do this feeling or
process it or manage it right now is to be aggressive. Yeah,
(07:47):
and you're not addressing the feeling because you're just assuming
here you wants attention, and that's not that's not necessarily
the reason that they are doing it.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know, we said in the last episode their feelings
are facts. That's the title. If you didn't if you
didn't listen, go listen or watch or what however you
because they do connect with us. I do now even
see a bigger relationship because I think what we do
sometimes is we treat the victims feelings like facts, but
not the aggressor. So both of these children are having
(08:19):
big feelings. Yes, one child's big feelings are not more
legitimate than another child's big feelings. They just expressed them
in different ways. One way more palatable to an adult,
the other way not so much so. As you're talking,
I'm thinking, yeah, we treat the victims feelings like a
fact in that.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Situation are valid and the aggressor's feelings are not, so
let's dismiss it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So I want to give the disclaimer again that I'm
not saying ignore the victim. You go, you check on
the victim, You make sure that whatever needs to be
done for their health and safety is done. Right. You
can be holding the victim and at the same time
turn to the aggressor and talk to them about their
feelings and we said last time, feelings or facts to say,
I know you were frustrated because you wanted what she had.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, And I feel like a lot of times what
I do is I'll talk to them both at the
same time, like I make sure the victims okay. But
the only way to really solve the problem is that
they're all there, all the people who are in that
situation are there, because if I'm talking separately, then it's
almost like a game of telephone like, oh, hey.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Johnny said you did this, Is that true?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Okay, let me go talk to not like if you're
all there, and if you want to teach children to
talk to each other about the problems, either during or
after the fact, or before the incident happens.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You gotta get them together.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Can we talk for a second. It's related, I promise
she's looking at me. Can we talk for a second
about how very much we were taught to ignore? Really, children, ignore?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It was a big part. Ignore.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Ignore this behavior, Ignore the feelings, Ignore the aggressor. Ignore
the child whose behavior you don't approve of. Ignore the
child who's whining. The child is whining because the child
is having an emotion. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, it's a lot of ignoring.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It is, and it makes you feel when you think
about it as an adult, how you feel when people
ignore you. It is so invalidating, isn't it. You know,
even to not acknowledge, you know, a form of ignoring
and ignoring the aggressor is to not acknowledge how they
were feeling. So, you know, even when let's say you
(10:42):
I want to relate it to adults, Even when you
as an adult, let's say you're having a big feeling
and someone basically ignores that feeling and just keeps going
back to but this, but that, but this, you can't
even hear that they may be making sense because your
feelings and ignore it right.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Well, you know what happens when you ignore and continue
to dismiss people's feelings is eventually they stop sharing their
feelings with you, and then they internalize it all and
then all sorts of turmoil could happen, or they don't.
They don't trust you as one of their people anymore
because you're like, well, I can't tell her my feelings,
so what's the point. And you lose friendships over this,
or relationships end or whatever happens because you are not
(11:24):
validating and making sure my feelings are.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Heard as facts, right, So why would I share them
with you?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So let's go back to talking about the aggressor. Yeah,
in a classroom situation, Yeah, the children are getting ready
to go outside. You don't not even know why, but
you see one child kick another child. Yeah, the child
who kicked the other child. That child needs to be
(11:52):
addressed and their feelings need to be addressed, and that
child is struggling and that's why they kick the other child.
And so I'm going to go to the child who
was kicked and I'm gonna say, like we do, Oh
my goodness, are you okay? Let me see your leg right?
I am gonna do that I'm gonna go let me
see your leg. Yes, I might say to someone we
need to get ice, or I'm gonna call for ice,
(12:15):
And then I'm turning right away to the other child
and saying, I see that you are frustrated or mad
because you kicked, and talk about what made them frustrated
or mad and what they should do instead of kicking,
and remind them that we have a promise in this
space to keep each other safe. Right, that's one of
(12:37):
our rules. We have a promise. A rule is like
a promise, We're gonna keep each other safe. So I
think the amount of time we spend on the victim
is often exaggerated, Yes, because I find so many adults
(12:59):
are like the other child. The aggressor needs to see
this isn't going to get my attention, when actually it
must get your attention. Their feelings must get your attention.
If they're looking for your attention, they need your attention.
You just want to give it in better ways when
that's not happening, And how on earth are they going
to learn empathy? The aggressor isn't one of the So
a child behaves in an aggressive manner. Often when I'm
(13:23):
trying to teach that child is empathy for the other people.
Like when you hurt, that hurts her, When you hit
that hurts her skin, when you kick that hurts him
when right, I'm trying to teach them that empathy that
other people have feelings and that their feelings matter. That's empathy.
Other people have feelings and their feelings matter.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I can't teach a child that unless I model it
to them about them, because they have an egocentric point
of view. So if empathy is other people have feelings
and their feelings matter, then you must turn to the
child who exhibited the aggressive behavior acknowledge those feelings because
they matter. Yes, And when you do that, you are
(14:09):
demonstrating what you actually need to teach this child who
behaves aggressively, which is other people have feelings. Right. We
have to acknowledge that other people have feelings and we
have to respect that.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And you have like, if you don't want the aggressor
to continue to be aggressive, then you need to teach
the aggressor how to manage their own feelings, not just
through empathy, but like, if you're feeling frustrated instead of kicking,
(14:45):
this is what you can do instead, and if you're not,
if you're fully ignoring the aggressor, they're never going to
learn what to do.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And no, they're just gonna get more frustrated. And by
the time you talk to them about it, they're not interested.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
They're more interested anymore.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They're just not interested anymore, and so they're not attending
to the conversation. And then that's that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Understand how ignoring is still being taught in several professional
developments that I've been in, you know, so like and
it's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You know, there's a difference sometimes with children so that
they know I'm not ignoring them. Sometimes they have to
calm down. Yeah, right, and I can't address it yet
or whatever. I will do something like if the top
child is okay with it, I will just put my
hand on them, Yes, I'll put my hand on their
armor back, so they know I'm right here. I'm still
with you, right, I'm with you. And sometimes I have
(15:37):
to wait to have the conversation. That's different than ignoring. Yes,
I think we need to redefine ignoring. Maybe maybe take
ignoring out of the vocabulary and just talk about how
we are going to attend to the children yes, because
it is not my job to only spend the most
of the time attending to the children whose behavior I like,
it's my job to attend to everyone's social emotion.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
You're only attending to the children whose feelings you understand.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, Sometimes I can't relate to relate to the aggressive
necessary me neither, I can't.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So let me just ignore it, becuse I don't have
I don't know how to deal with that. But I
understand your victim mentality. I get that, you know, like I.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Get you as a victim it's like to be.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
A victim, but I don't necessarily know what it's like
to be an aggressor. So like, maybe if I just
ignore that look away. Yet, No, that's not how it works.
And like maybe if you want to grow as a
person as a teacher, you'll you'll try to put yourself
in the eyes of the aggressor. Yeah, you know, so
then you can learn more about that child and just
about emotions in general.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
So time on the victim, whatever time they need, really,
but not beyond what they need, because we tend to
go beyond what they need. Yeah, I also have been
in situations and some of you may be thinking this
where I'm right near where the incident happened. So I'll
go over to the victim and say you're okay, let
me see your leg, And then another adult in the
room will come over and say I've got her, so
(17:06):
that I could deal with the childhood behavior was aggressive
or vice versa. But I have had people come over
and say I've got her, and they take the victim
right so that I can have a conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I think that when we pay so much attention to
the victim, that it's teaching children to be victims.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh my god, that's so deep, I know, but they're
getting teaches a victim mentality.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yes, that they're getting so much attention.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
This is a way I can get attention, possibly by
being a victim. And now I'm going to you know,
like and you don't want them to have that vic mentality.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I remember. So I worked one time in an environment
where I worked with children from all ages, preschool through
high school. I remember a teenager once who definitely had
a victim mentality, and when she wasn't a victim, she
was hurt and so like she needed us to always
be feeling bad for her, even if it was just
(18:07):
like like she would cut. She was always hurt, like
she I can't even describe it to you when nothing
was happening, you know. So she would come in with
like an expandage on and we would say, oh, my goodness,
what happened and she would say, oh, you know, I
twisted my arm. Funny. And I remember sometimes saying to
(18:29):
her parents, you know, is she okay? She said she
would tist her arm, and the parents just sort of going, no,
this is just what she does. She's fine. There isn't
even any swelling. So I don't it was very deep
in that child that, yeah, I need everyone's sympathy or empathy.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, Like I don't want to say, like having a
victim mentality is that simple, because I think in this
child's it might have been very deep.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And then in many reasons for it.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But there is also other victim mentalities where you're just
constantly paint yourself as a victim of what everyone around
you is doing. Narcissistic people do that. Does it create
a victim mentality because the children at very young ages
are getting the lion's share of the attention for being
a victim. Yeah, And that's potentially true. And I think
we can all think.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
About it after this vice because if we're saying, oh,
the aggressor always wants attention, right, if that's what the
mentality has been for decades, and that's why professional.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Developments still say ignore them.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But now the children are like, well, wait a minute,
I can get hurt and get a lot of attention
that way, maybe because I'm getting ten minutes of attention
when I only needed one.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We all know that, we all know that there are
children who will act like the victim after they were
actually the perpetrator of the incident. Right. They will do
something that they know is going to irritate another child.
They sometimes they are I often tell people, if you
didn't see the incident with your own eyes, don't take
anybody's word for what happened. Just a deal with the
feelings and the hurt and the injury, because I can't assume,
(20:03):
I can't even assume when I did see it that
something didn't happen before it. That's true because very often
the victim is actually the perpetrate. That is true, right,
that is true. I've seen lots of victim perpetrators in
my time.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, But I think that's why you also have to
attend to the aggressor, because that aggressor might be like.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
She hit me first, Yeah, you know, you would never
know that. Seriously, if you didn't talk to that, like
she pulled my hair, you didn't see that.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I didn't see that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah of course I hit her, you know, like like
you're cann't defend yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So like, let's remember the childhood we think is the
aggressor might not have been the original aggressor even so,
just attend to them or.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Sometimes it's like not physical aggression, like verbal yeah they Hey,
she whispered in my ear that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I was whatever, I can't go to her house. Yeah,
she's not my best friend anymore, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
She's not inviting me to her birthday party.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Right right, so like and it made me that, okay,
so like, but if.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
You're not talking to the aggressor at all, you might
not even realize that there really be very quiet about
it aggressive.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Well, it reminds me there was an old TV game
show which one was it Wait, what's my line? Will
the real so and so please stand up? Sometimes? So
on what's my line? For those of you who don't
know what you can watch it on YouTube by the
way the old old watch the old black and white episodes,
they're the best. So someone would come on, three people
(21:26):
would come on, and they would all claim to be
the same person with the same career, and it was
the panel of celebrities would ask them questions and try
to determine who is the real person.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I think they just redid this show.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They might have, but it's never as good as the
original origin. Go back to the black and white episodes
from like the fifties and sixties. So they would say,
they would question the people and then they had to
name who they thought the real person was, and then
the host of the show would say, would the real
Cindy terror Bush please stand up? And they would all protest,
(22:01):
shuffle and pretend to stand, and then the real person
would stand. And I feel that way about these aggressive
situations sometimes I want to say, with the real aggressor,
please stand up, because I don't necessarily have that right
based on what I saw or heard. Yeah, so we're
going to attend to the victim for as long as necessary,
and then we are going to attend to the aggressor
(22:22):
who we did not send away from us, who we
did not turn our back to who in fact, we
might have a hand on. Yes, while we're talking to
the victim. Yes, if they're okay with that. Yeah, all right, folks,
I hope this gives you thought. I think we all
need to go back and think about that whole victim
mentality thing. If you have thoughts, let us know. You
know how to get to us. We said it at
(22:43):
the end of the last episode, So if you want
to know how to get to us, you can go
to the last episode and listen, or you can go
to YouTube where there's a QR code. Allison's going to
move her head a little bit. There's a QR code
on YouTube at the end of the episode on YouTube
that you can scan with the camera on your mobile
device and then click on the website at names. It'll
(23:03):
take you to all our links. And if you do
go to YouTube, please do like and subscribe. Yes, that
would be great. Comment. We get comments on YouTube sometimes
I get excited. I comment back. I actually do comment back.
So I also and Alison and I both answer people
on Facebook and through our contact form and all that
you will actually interact with us, So please feel free
(23:26):
to do that. Maybe not the hate mail, We could
live without that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's something we do kind of ignore.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, not gonna lie. We do ignore that because we
can't even sit face to face with you and talk
about it. So all right, folks, We will catch you
next time on the How Preschool Teachers Do It Podcast.
Catch you next time, fie peep,
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