April 23, 2025 • 8 mins
ABOUT DEBORAH ARCHER AND DIVIDING LINES
From an eminent legal scholar and the president of the ACLU, an essential account of how transportation infrastructure-from highways and roads to sidewalks and buses-became a means of protecting segregation and inequality after the fall of Jim Crow.
Our nation's transportation system is crumbling: highways are collapsing, roads are pockmarked, and commuter trains are unreliable. But as acclaimed scholar and ACLU president Deborah Archer warns in Dividing Lines, before we can think about rebuilding and repairing, we must consider the role race has played in transportation infrastructure, from the early twentieth century and into the present day.
As Archer demonstrates, the success of the Civil Rights movement and the fall of Jim Crow in the 1960s did not mean the end of segregation. The status quo would not be so easily dismantled. With state-sanctioned racism no longer legal, officials across the country-not just in the South-turned to transportation infrastructure to keep Americans divided. A wealthy white neighborhood could no longer be "protected" by racial covenants and segregated shops, but a multilane road, with no pedestrian crossings, could be built along its border to make it difficult for people from a lower-income community to visit. Highways could not be routed through Black neighborhoods based on the race of their residents, but those neighborhoods' lower property values-a legacy of racial exclusion-could justify their destruction. A new suburb could not be for "whites only," but planners could refuse to extend sidewalks from Black communities into white ones.
Drawing on a wealth of sources, including interviews with people who now live in the shadow of highways and other major infrastructure projects, Archer presents a sweeping, national account-from Atlanta and Houston to Indianapolis and New York City-of our persistent divisions. With immense authority, she examines the limits of current Civil Rights laws, which can be used against overtly racist officials but are less effective in addressing deeper, more enduring, structural challenges. But Archer remains hopeful, and in the final count describes what a just system would look like and how we can achieve it.
ABOUT DEBORAH ARCHER
Deborah N. Archer is president of the ACLU, where she serves as chair of the Board of Directors and Executive Committee. She is a tenured professor and associate dean at New York University School of Law and the faculty director of the Community Equity Initiative at NYU Law. She lives in New York with her husband and two children.
Get the book: https://a.co/d/3Gw8unf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
From an eminent legal scholar and the president of the ACLU, an essential account of how transportation infrastructure-from highways and roads to sidewalks and buses-became a means of protecting segregation and inequality after the fall of Jim Crow.
Our nation's transportation system is crumbling: highways are collapsing, roads are pockmarked, and commuter trains are unreliable. But as acclaimed scholar and ACLU president Deborah Archer warns in Dividing Lines, before we can think about rebuilding and repairing, we must consider the role race has played in transportation infrastructure, from the early twentieth century and into the present day.
As Archer demonstrates, the success of the Civil Rights movement and the fall of Jim Crow in the 1960s did not mean the end of segregation. The status quo would not be so easily dismantled. With state-sanctioned racism no longer legal, officials across the country-not just in the South-turned to transportation infrastructure to keep Americans divided. A wealthy white neighborhood could no longer be "protected" by racial covenants and segregated shops, but a multilane road, with no pedestrian crossings, could be built along its border to make it difficult for people from a lower-income community to visit. Highways could not be routed through Black neighborhoods based on the race of their residents, but those neighborhoods' lower property values-a legacy of racial exclusion-could justify their destruction. A new suburb could not be for "whites only," but planners could refuse to extend sidewalks from Black communities into white ones.
Drawing on a wealth of sources, including interviews with people who now live in the shadow of highways and other major infrastructure projects, Archer presents a sweeping, national account-from Atlanta and Houston to Indianapolis and New York City-of our persistent divisions. With immense authority, she examines the limits of current Civil Rights laws, which can be used against overtly racist officials but are less effective in addressing deeper, more enduring, structural challenges. But Archer remains hopeful, and in the final count describes what a just system would look like and how we can achieve it.
ABOUT DEBORAH ARCHER
Deborah N. Archer is president of the ACLU, where she serves as chair of the Board of Directors and Executive Committee. She is a tenured professor and associate dean at New York University School of Law and the faculty director of the Community Equity Initiative at NYU Law. She lives in New York with her husband and two children.
Get the book: https://a.co/d/3Gw8unf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaiah Read. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, Shamaiah Read.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, welcome to we Focus. Ready when you're here once again?
And today, man, we have a big power house. Today
we have to honor talking to the one and only
Debora Archer. She is the President of the ac LU
and we're gonna be talking about her new book, Dividing
Lines Our transportation Infrastructure reinforces Racial inequality. First and foremost,
good morning. I know your s guestles tight, So how
you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Good morning, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for making
time for me.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, ma'am, appreciate you talking about this important topic. First
and foremost, what inspires you to start researching and putting
this book together? Because it's very well put together. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So. I've been a civiriti twenty four thirty years and
central to my work has been challenged the inequality at
the intersection of race and space. I think about all
the ways that we have used tools to segregate and
impress black communities and other communities of color, and what's
been missing from this conversation is the way that we
(01:14):
have used physical tools like transportation infrastructure to create these
dividing lines that segregate, separate, and oppress our communities.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You say that we can't fix our infrastructure without addressing
it is racist. Pass in the book. Give us a teacher,
how you tackled that point.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, I think it's important for us to understand the
full nature of transportation. Transportation in America is a bit
of a paradox. We often think of roads and highways
and public transit as symbols of progress and connection, but
the story I try to tell in Dividing Lines is
about how these same systems have been used as tools
(01:57):
of exclusion and displacement, specially in black communities. So one
example is the transportation, of course, has long been a
tool for enforcing white supremacy, but as legal segregation began
to crumble during the Civil Rights movement in the fifties
and sixties, cities across America started turning to our highways
(02:18):
and roads and transit systems that were being built up
and fortified as a more permanent, more visible way to
enforce racial hierarchy. And I try to take readers through
the way. We've done that with our highways, with our
roads and street grids, with our transit system, and even
with our progestinal infrastructure sidewalks.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And also in the book you use examples from cities
like Atlanta, Houston, and New York wor some on the patterns.
If you saw any common patterns or common threads of
what you saw were some issues.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
So there's lots of common threads. And this is not
a story just about the South. This is a story
about basically every state in the country that did this.
So one example was after Brown versus Board of Education
was passed in nineteen fifty four adopted by the Supreme
Court and said that segregation in public education was illegal.
(03:17):
We saw that communities that saw Brown as a sign
that segregation more broadly was going to fall wanted to
find new tools, and they turned to the highways as
one way to lock it in segregation. So in Birmingham, Alabama,
I talk about the way that they had racial zoning laws,
and when they had to get rid of their racial
zoning laws, the highways in many places were built on
(03:39):
the same exact boundaries. Similarly, in Atlanta, I twenty was
built on mirroring some of the racial zoning boundaries. And
I also talk about the way some of the highways
around the country, including in Indianapolis, mirror the red lining maps.
Redlining destroyed black and brown community through under investment by
(04:02):
telling people that there was no reason to invest in them.
You couldn't get mortgages, you couldn't get loans for your businesses,
and then we use that economic deprivation and the result
of it to target those communities to be destroyed and
removed by highways.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Once again, talking to the one and only Deborah Archer
and her new book, they can get right now dividing
lines how transportation infrastructure reinforces racial equality. My last question
would be hopeful for the future. What would you see
would have to take place in order for improvement for
transportation systems and how can we take those steps?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, I think we need some fundamental shifts in how
we view the relationship between transportation and black and brown
communities and recognizing how important transportation is to connecting us
to opportunity, for being the infrastructure for good health and happiness.
And so I think we need to focus on an
(05:00):
anti racist design or community equity focused whatever it means
to make sure that black and brown communities are not
housing all of the negatives of our transportation infrastructure, the isolation,
the devastation, the pollution, but allowed to enjoy fewer of
the benefits. And in writing the book, I visited communities
(05:20):
all around the country, including with some folks in San
Antonio and other communities throughout the South. And what is
beautiful and inspiring is the way that they have spent
decades supporting and building their communities in the shadow of
these infrastructure projects that displaced and destroyed so many beautiful
(05:41):
aspects of those communities, and they're fighting using every tool
that they have. And I think it's important for us
to join those communities in the fight to make sure
that we are building back better for everyone, that we
are reconnecting those communities, and that we are providing for
economic investment in those communities.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Every person has their own unique opinion on this issue,
but when we talk about accountability and leadership, what roles
do you see our leaders having opportunity to take place?
If they want to address this.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I think most importantly they need to understand this history
and make sure that as we move forward, racial equity,
racial justice, and not further destroying black and brown communities
is central to the decision making process. That they have
a responsibility to ensure that the most marginalized communities have
a seat at the table, that their houses, their homes,
(06:35):
their communities, and their lives are valued in the same
way that other lives, communities, and homes are valued. We
have a responsibility, our leaders have a responsibility to make
sure that black and brown communities their transportation system is modernized,
that they have investment in transportation. We focus on often
(06:56):
trying to build twenty first century transportation for the country,
when we really haven't brought everyone up to the same
point yet. So before we all can move forward together
to a brighter future, we have to make sure that
we're all at an equal starting point. And that's the
responsibility of our leaders.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And one last question for you after readers finish reading
the book, what we say will be the responsibilities for
individuals in their own community, how they can get involved.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, I think that that's just it. We all have
a responsibility to get involved. I have a friend who
often says that we all can be a part of
the circle of human concern, and I hope that people
will read this book and recognize all of us have
a responsibility to be better, to do differently, to build
our transportation infrastructure in a way that really supports the health,
(07:48):
economic opportunity, and vitality of every community. I hope that
we can also see and celebrate the strength in these
communities that have been historically target and the strength that
they've showed, and the resilience they've showed, and the fight
that they have showed.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Once again, I've been talking to a Deborah Artre in
her book Dividing Lines. You can get it right now
once again, like I always want to say to you,
thank you for your time, Thank you so much for
having me
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaiah Read. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, Shamaiah Read.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, welcome to we Focus. Ready when you're here once again?
And today, man, we have a big power house. Today
we have to honor talking to the one and only
Debora Archer. She is the President of the ac LU
and we're gonna be talking about her new book, Dividing
Lines Our transportation Infrastructure reinforces Racial inequality. First and foremost,
good morning. I know your s guestles tight, So how
you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Good morning, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for making
time for me.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, ma'am, appreciate you talking about this important topic. First
and foremost, what inspires you to start researching and putting
this book together? Because it's very well put together. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So. I've been a civiriti twenty four thirty years and
central to my work has been challenged the inequality at
the intersection of race and space. I think about all
the ways that we have used tools to segregate and
impress black communities and other communities of color, and what's
been missing from this conversation is the way that we
(01:14):
have used physical tools like transportation infrastructure to create these
dividing lines that segregate, separate, and oppress our communities.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You say that we can't fix our infrastructure without addressing
it is racist. Pass in the book. Give us a teacher,
how you tackled that point.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, I think it's important for us to understand the
full nature of transportation. Transportation in America is a bit
of a paradox. We often think of roads and highways
and public transit as symbols of progress and connection, but
the story I try to tell in Dividing Lines is
about how these same systems have been used as tools
(01:57):
of exclusion and displacement, specially in black communities. So one
example is the transportation, of course, has long been a
tool for enforcing white supremacy, but as legal segregation began
to crumble during the Civil Rights movement in the fifties
and sixties, cities across America started turning to our highways
(02:18):
and roads and transit systems that were being built up
and fortified as a more permanent, more visible way to
enforce racial hierarchy. And I try to take readers through
the way. We've done that with our highways, with our
roads and street grids, with our transit system, and even
with our progestinal infrastructure sidewalks.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And also in the book you use examples from cities
like Atlanta, Houston, and New York wor some on the patterns.
If you saw any common patterns or common threads of
what you saw were some issues.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
So there's lots of common threads. And this is not
a story just about the South. This is a story
about basically every state in the country that did this.
So one example was after Brown versus Board of Education
was passed in nineteen fifty four adopted by the Supreme
Court and said that segregation in public education was illegal.
(03:17):
We saw that communities that saw Brown as a sign
that segregation more broadly was going to fall wanted to
find new tools, and they turned to the highways as
one way to lock it in segregation. So in Birmingham, Alabama,
I talk about the way that they had racial zoning laws,
and when they had to get rid of their racial
zoning laws, the highways in many places were built on
(03:39):
the same exact boundaries. Similarly, in Atlanta, I twenty was
built on mirroring some of the racial zoning boundaries. And
I also talk about the way some of the highways
around the country, including in Indianapolis, mirror the red lining maps.
Redlining destroyed black and brown community through under investment by
(04:02):
telling people that there was no reason to invest in them.
You couldn't get mortgages, you couldn't get loans for your businesses,
and then we use that economic deprivation and the result
of it to target those communities to be destroyed and
removed by highways.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Once again, talking to the one and only Deborah Archer
and her new book, they can get right now dividing
lines how transportation infrastructure reinforces racial equality. My last question
would be hopeful for the future. What would you see
would have to take place in order for improvement for
transportation systems and how can we take those steps?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, I think we need some fundamental shifts in how
we view the relationship between transportation and black and brown
communities and recognizing how important transportation is to connecting us
to opportunity, for being the infrastructure for good health and happiness.
And so I think we need to focus on an
(05:00):
anti racist design or community equity focused whatever it means
to make sure that black and brown communities are not
housing all of the negatives of our transportation infrastructure, the isolation,
the devastation, the pollution, but allowed to enjoy fewer of
the benefits. And in writing the book, I visited communities
(05:20):
all around the country, including with some folks in San
Antonio and other communities throughout the South. And what is
beautiful and inspiring is the way that they have spent
decades supporting and building their communities in the shadow of
these infrastructure projects that displaced and destroyed so many beautiful
(05:41):
aspects of those communities, and they're fighting using every tool
that they have. And I think it's important for us
to join those communities in the fight to make sure
that we are building back better for everyone, that we
are reconnecting those communities, and that we are providing for
economic investment in those communities.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Every person has their own unique opinion on this issue,
but when we talk about accountability and leadership, what roles
do you see our leaders having opportunity to take place?
If they want to address this.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I think most importantly they need to understand this history
and make sure that as we move forward, racial equity,
racial justice, and not further destroying black and brown communities
is central to the decision making process. That they have
a responsibility to ensure that the most marginalized communities have
a seat at the table, that their houses, their homes,
(06:35):
their communities, and their lives are valued in the same
way that other lives, communities, and homes are valued. We
have a responsibility, our leaders have a responsibility to make
sure that black and brown communities their transportation system is modernized,
that they have investment in transportation. We focus on often
(06:56):
trying to build twenty first century transportation for the country,
when we really haven't brought everyone up to the same
point yet. So before we all can move forward together
to a brighter future, we have to make sure that
we're all at an equal starting point. And that's the
responsibility of our leaders.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And one last question for you after readers finish reading
the book, what we say will be the responsibilities for
individuals in their own community, how they can get involved.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, I think that that's just it. We all have
a responsibility to get involved. I have a friend who
often says that we all can be a part of
the circle of human concern, and I hope that people
will read this book and recognize all of us have
a responsibility to be better, to do differently, to build
our transportation infrastructure in a way that really supports the health,
(07:48):
economic opportunity, and vitality of every community. I hope that
we can also see and celebrate the strength in these
communities that have been historically target and the strength that
they've showed, and the resilience they've showed, and the fight
that they have showed.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Once again, I've been talking to a Deborah Artre in
her book Dividing Lines. You can get it right now
once again, like I always want to say to you,
thank you for your time, Thank you so much for
having me
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