July 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Willie Handler has worn many hats — hospital administrator, policy expert, consultant — but none as personal as his latest: author and witness to generational pain. What began as a gift for humor and fiction eventually led him to a deeper calling — writing a memoir that unlocked decades of buried trauma and forced him to confront what was never fully spoken.
After years of writing fiction and humor, he released Out From the Shadows, a memoir that pulled back the curtain on his childhood as the son of Holocaust survivors and unearthed decades of unspoken trauma.
In this powerful conversation, Willie shares how writing the book led him to unexpected places — including therapy, reflection, and a deeper understanding of intergenerational pain. Now, he’s taking on his next challenge with The Hidden Victims, an oral history project documenting the experiences of descendants of Holocaust survivors across the world.
https://williehandler.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
After years of writing fiction and humor, he released Out From the Shadows, a memoir that pulled back the curtain on his childhood as the son of Holocaust survivors and unearthed decades of unspoken trauma.
In this powerful conversation, Willie shares how writing the book led him to unexpected places — including therapy, reflection, and a deeper understanding of intergenerational pain. Now, he’s taking on his next challenge with The Hidden Victims, an oral history project documenting the experiences of descendants of Holocaust survivors across the world.
https://williehandler.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaiah Reid. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, Shamaiah read.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome Tom, we focus ready once again, you're here today
and today we have our special guest today with us.
His name is Willie Handler. He has lived multiple lives
and one from hospital administrator to government policy expert, to
publish author and also a active voice in the Holocaust
survivor community. Really is someone that is going to share
(00:38):
not just amazing stories, but also is life journey. I
want to say to you, won't appreciate you taking time
talking to us today. We're going to also get into
your book, Out from the Shadows, but before do that,
we welcome to the show and say, man, how you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Thank you very much? Nice, nice being here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We had to make it happen a lot of battles
trying to get there, and you've done so right. It
must be a powerful story that I'm about to hear.
So let's start your personal life before we get into
your book. Tell us a little bit some of the
things that you do. Now people know that you are
active Holocaust survivor activism in the community.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Okay, well, and I'm active in the sort of the
descendant communities.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Survivor of community is kind of dwindling off.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I'm a volunteer at the Toronto Holocaust Museum and spend
time showing around school children because that's our predominant client.
I have an active blog on sub stack where I
(01:55):
write on all kinds of Holocaust related.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Issues.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
I've done a lot of speaking, especially around Holocaust Remembrance
Day and and in fact, I'm doing a program later
this year on the Holocaust Remembrance sorry, Holocaust Education Week
in Toronto where I'm going to be doing a program
in Holocaust denial. So it's a lot of different things
(02:25):
going on, including another book about.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Holocaust.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Out from the Shadows actually came out November of twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, and so that's my memoir, but it deals with also.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
The history of my family, and it's really it's written
for I wrote it for non Jewish people, so it
kind of tells us my family story while telling the
story about the Holocaust. It's sort of like seemlessly kind
of uh moves in that way. So it helps people
(03:06):
who haven't you know, are aware about the Holocaust, but
don't know a lot about it, So it's it's very informative,
but it also talks about my childhood and the kind
of trauma I.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Experienced growing up.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
My next book, which is I think where you know,
is called The hiden Victim and it is about uh
trauma experienced by the sentence of holocausts of ivors, but
not myself but other people. And I've interviewed one hundred
people for the book, and about about a halfway through.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You've been able to speak at different schools and museums
and other events. What kind of reactions have you received
from students or admissary that has stuck with you.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Well, I'd say that it's it's really the museum doesn't
delve heavily into the Holocaust. It's very much like an overview,
and it's it's really there's not a lot of graphic
material there because it's it's really geared towards students, and
(04:23):
so it's for many it's a bit of an eye opener,
and for a lot of students, I uh, some maybe
don't care that much because students are you know, students,
and what.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
They have, what they're interested, but some it kind of generates.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Sort of an interest in that historical period and a
search for more information.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Radio talking to our guests today really Handler and go
to his website Really handler dot com. When you think
about you wearing multiple ads in retirement, you said, I'm
gonna keep writing, I'm published books. Well, has been your
favorite process from not just getting out there but receiving
(05:11):
actual feedback if you're writing, what's your favorite part of.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Just being able to soak it all day.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's kind of a strange experience for me. I worked
in UH, I worked in government where I had relatively
important positions, but you're kind of in the background.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You're not in the spotlight.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
And because you're a you're a bureaucraft and suddenly you
began to publish books and people are reaching out to
you all, you know, And the most the most unusual
thing happened to me that earlier this year, I was
with friends launched some some deli and this person comes
(06:01):
running up to me and holds up his phone and
there's a photo of me.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
He says, is this you reading? So you know sort
of that you know, and you know.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I'm constantly getting messages from people I read your book
and I was really moved, and you know, I just
wanted to tell you things like that.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So it's very different. It's something sort of to get
used to.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
What do you believe is the biggest difference for you
between writing fiction and writing nonfiction?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Like you meanwhile, Well, the interesting thing, of course is
what my career. You know, my during my professional career,
I did an awful lot of writing. It was all
non fiction, supposed to non fiction. It was government, so
maybe sometimes we embellished anyways, and so you know, I
(07:04):
took a stab at writing fiction and I kind of
flourished at that, and I just thought.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
It was the right time for me to tell my family.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Story, and so I really I approached it kind of
the same way I was writing a novel. But it
didn't work out that way because you're dealing with a
real story and you can't kind of divert.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
From the truth.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And so I became very much obsessed with being accurate.
And that's a fundamental difference. And still this day, it's
been out for eight or nine months, and I so
worry about maybe there's something that's actually not right in there.
(08:02):
But it certainly did due diligence. That's a big difference. Well,
and the other, of course, is because it's it's not
just a nonfiction book. It's a nonfiction book about me, and.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
That's very very different.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
And you know, the whole idea of opening up and
telling your inner secrets and your feelings and emotions and
things like that so different, so very very different.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Speaking on that, that's an interesting doog because I can
only imagine where you. Did you have any times when
you're writing the process and you're like, oh, we're not
going there, I'm gonna shut.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
The lid on that one. Or did you just let
it all out?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It was a gradual process.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I remember the first time I showed the booked.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Someone, it was it was an editor, and it came
back and he said, I thought you were writing a memoir.
He says, well, what do you mean, And he goes, well,
you know, the reads like a biography but not quite
a memoir. And so I took it back and I
(09:25):
did some kind of heavy thinking and started editing and
inserting myself more in it. And it took really several
drafts until I fully.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Opened up, and.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Did I one hundred percent open up pretty you know,
maybe ninety five percent. I guess there are probably things
that I wasn't prepared to talk about in the book,
but not very many.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
At the end of the day, and for our audience,
I know we're only ten minutes in, but before we
get too deep into the weeds, it sounds a little
bit about your parents. What were some of your earliest
memories growing up with your parents who were other calls survivors.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Yes, so I've known. I feel I've known about the
Holocaust my whole life, partly because it's probably partly genetics,
and I just just about hearing about it.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
My earliest memory.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It's like you don't have one, because it seems like
I've always known about it. Though it's quite interesting. My
father did talk about it, but not in a great
detail and not all to get there are more bits
(11:01):
and pizza pieces. Because he was so traumatized, he had
a really difficulty speaking about it. But he would raise
it at times for one, you know, perhaps to make
a point.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Or something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
But if you sort of tried to press them and
ask questions, he would just he would get very emotional
and just kind of break down. And so my mother
was not like that. So one of the things you
can learn as a child is don't ask because you
don't want to cause pain to your parent, and so
(11:43):
you never really ask questions. But I've always knew about
the Holocaust, read so many books, but World War two
in the Holocaust, so I was always very totally aware,
even at a very young age.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
What do you think about trauma in the community of
others who.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Have had parents who were in a Holocaust survivor.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Are there ways that you see that you all.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
Talk about that, because as a heavy that's a heavy
thing to discuss as far as how people survive, how
to deal with trauma afterwards.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
So I interviewed one hundred people and they were all
either children or grandchildren of Holocaust survivors, and everybody's story
was different, how they reacted was different, but there were.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Very common threads. And one is parents.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
The parents who were survivors, even if they were open
about it, and I think the majority were not. Those
that did were very I think, very careful in what
they told their children. Want to protect them, but you know,
(13:24):
and that's why some of them didn't talk about it
at all, but as well also to protect themselves because
it was so triggering and traumatizing for them.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And then.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
What I observed as they got older survivors and near
the end of life, they.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Were start opening up.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
And I guess part of it is desistance from the
events and the trauma, but as well, I think there
was this realization that they needed to get their story
out or it would be lost, and so there was
a flurry of.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
A lot of.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Memoirs being written by survivors later in their life. To
be honest, they were also very focused early on their
life and restoring their life and making a living, amazing
families and things like that. So the Holocaust was kind
of like pushed in the background.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
I know, in Toronto.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
It was in nineteen eighty five that a bunch of
survivors got together and decided to build sort of and
build a collect money to build a Holocaust center. And
that's forty years after the end of the war, and
that's when this group of survivors began talking about it.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
And so, you know, and that's.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think very reflected the community. As far as the
children go, they didn't talk about it either. When they
were growing up. They didn't talk about with their friends,
even if their friends were also other children's survivors. It
was all It wasn't so much as a taboo subject.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
It was just too uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's a good listening to refocus the radio and watching
this online and talking to our guest today, really handler
and go to this website.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Really handlered dot com.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
My last question before we wrap up for today is,
I mean, think about the role of education and storytelling.
How do you believe that can play in finding against
ignorance and hate.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I think it's almost a losing battle right now, the
way the world is, and and.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
It seems to be more hate than ever.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Part of it is it's our education system. And also
it's the role of the internet and how people get information.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
People are actually reading history books these days, it seems
like not too many, and and people are more interested
in learning from a YouTube or TikTok video h then
from then from history, you know, from historical books and
(16:35):
things like that, And so reaching people needs.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Kind of a different strategy.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
And uh, and I think sort of the anti hate
community and that's not.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Just Jewish people, but.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Other races and and other groups that are are discriminated against.
They need to find better strategies to reach people and
make them understand and.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Pass on the truth.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
And so far, I think we're not doing well enough.
And I'm very much against hate. I don't hate people.
I don't hate groups. And I try and listen.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
To people and.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
If they're open and they're open minded, and I will
tell them my perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
If they're not, then you're waste good time. But it's
a real struggle these days and.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Becoming more and more so. And I don't have all
the answers, but I think that community leaders, politicians, religious leaders, whatever, whoever,
need to get together and find.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
A better way.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
If someone listened to this and watching us, what would
you hope the future would look like if that could happen.
I mean, it seems like you talk about this on
and on and on, but what do you think people
can do to actually step up and be that mirror
(18:26):
of working together?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think it's it's just about listening to people, and
there is not there's simes if you hate too, but.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And you know, I've had times a sort of a
loss as well. But people need to listen to each
other and understand where they're coming from and be more
tolerant of people who are different.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Than them and this is a.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Big planted with over eight billion people now and we
are not so people are sometimes asking.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Too tribal, but we're not tribes anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
It's a big you know, the world itself is a
big melting pot, and people traveling around the world many
people and see different cultures that you need to you
need to be much more open minded. And that's kind
of the world that I want to see that listens,
that's open minded, that's not afraid of people who are
(19:44):
different than them and welcome them and try to share perspectives.
And you know, I hope one day we can be there,
but I don't.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
It's not happening yet.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
And my last question would be for you is what
that said.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And with the resources you have it's available for the public.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
With your books, what do you hope your books can.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Accomplish and towards that goal of not just educating but
informing people where most likely they ignored or it just
wasn't aware else.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Well, so.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
My family story or other family stories really illustrated well
how hate can happen and how damaging it can be
the humanity, And so in a very plain way, I've
(20:50):
described it in my books about how it happened and
the impact it have, and one we need to step
back and make sure it doesn't happen again. And my writing,
my stylid writing, is such that it malcolma is very digestible.
(21:11):
And I do that on purpose. I learned that as
a pure crat how to how to write non bureacutees
and actually because I was doing what I was doing,
writing for the for the outside world. And I continue
to do that so that people will get the message
(21:32):
and we'll finish what I write.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
I know it's the last question, but I'm squeeze one more.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Am okay as an accomplished UH writer and published author,
what we give words of wisdom to any author out there?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
And it feels like maybe they'd be.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
In the game for a while and they just you know,
want to teach something or their nubie and they don't
know where to start. Basically, you some experience getting your
work out there films, share with other oundrs with something
that they can take away from your experience.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Well, one thing I can say is that the only
way to learn how to be a good writer is
to keep writing.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
That I started off as.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
A not a very good writer and it just got
better and better and better. It's it never stops getting better.
And so that's an important thing for people to understand,
is that, And if they're getting negative feedback about their writing,
don't give up. Go back and rewrite, and rewrite, and rewrite,
(22:45):
and you.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Will get better.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
And listen to people and read read because reading reading
good material teaches you how to structure your writing properly,
to rescribe things, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
So that's an important thing. But if you because I
switched from fiction to.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Nonfiction, if you're into nonfiction, even in fiction a little
bit but not the.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Same stent, you really have to do your homework. You
have to do a lot of research.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
And that's an important aspect of writing, is that even
if you're writing fiction, if you want, if you want
to if you want some realism. And I give an example.
I wrote a book about dairy farming and a dairy
farmer who who when he decided to switch to growing marijuana.
(23:44):
So I basically had to do all this research on
how to you know how to run a dairy farm as.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Well as the other part of it.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
And I remember once getting a feedback from somebody says,
I grew up on a dairy farm and I read
your book and it's obvious.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Set you you did as well.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
That's probably the biggest complicate compliment you can get because
they basically spend a half a day on a dairy farm.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Well, that's awesome. We appreciate you be on the show today.
We got it done. It was a battle to get
this done. Now I'm glad we did because it's always
worth the way, and I want to say to you
thank you for your telling me on the show today there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Thank you very well, Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
I know the technology was not was not cooperating with us.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That's the powerful tools of editing man, but appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
As always me I'm a good one.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Well, thank you very much. It was my pleasure.
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaiah Reid. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, Shamaiah read.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome Tom, we focus ready once again, you're here today
and today we have our special guest today with us.
His name is Willie Handler. He has lived multiple lives
and one from hospital administrator to government policy expert, to
publish author and also a active voice in the Holocaust
survivor community. Really is someone that is going to share
(00:38):
not just amazing stories, but also is life journey. I
want to say to you, won't appreciate you taking time
talking to us today. We're going to also get into
your book, Out from the Shadows, but before do that,
we welcome to the show and say, man, how you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Thank you very much? Nice, nice being here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We had to make it happen a lot of battles
trying to get there, and you've done so right. It
must be a powerful story that I'm about to hear.
So let's start your personal life before we get into
your book. Tell us a little bit some of the
things that you do. Now people know that you are
active Holocaust survivor activism in the community.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Okay, well, and I'm active in the sort of the
descendant communities.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Survivor of community is kind of dwindling off.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I'm a volunteer at the Toronto Holocaust Museum and spend
time showing around school children because that's our predominant client.
I have an active blog on sub stack where I
(01:55):
write on all kinds of Holocaust related.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Issues.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
I've done a lot of speaking, especially around Holocaust Remembrance
Day and and in fact, I'm doing a program later
this year on the Holocaust Remembrance sorry, Holocaust Education Week
in Toronto where I'm going to be doing a program
in Holocaust denial. So it's a lot of different things
(02:25):
going on, including another book about.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Holocaust.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Out from the Shadows actually came out November of twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, and so that's my memoir, but it deals with also.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
The history of my family, and it's really it's written
for I wrote it for non Jewish people, so it
kind of tells us my family story while telling the
story about the Holocaust. It's sort of like seemlessly kind
of uh moves in that way. So it helps people
(03:06):
who haven't you know, are aware about the Holocaust, but
don't know a lot about it, So it's it's very informative,
but it also talks about my childhood and the kind
of trauma I.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Experienced growing up.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
My next book, which is I think where you know,
is called The hiden Victim and it is about uh
trauma experienced by the sentence of holocausts of ivors, but
not myself but other people. And I've interviewed one hundred
people for the book, and about about a halfway through.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You've been able to speak at different schools and museums
and other events. What kind of reactions have you received
from students or admissary that has stuck with you.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Well, I'd say that it's it's really the museum doesn't
delve heavily into the Holocaust. It's very much like an overview,
and it's it's really there's not a lot of graphic
material there because it's it's really geared towards students, and
(04:23):
so it's for many it's a bit of an eye opener,
and for a lot of students, I uh, some maybe
don't care that much because students are you know, students,
and what.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
They have, what they're interested, but some it kind of generates.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Sort of an interest in that historical period and a
search for more information.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Radio talking to our guests today really Handler and go
to his website Really handler dot com. When you think
about you wearing multiple ads in retirement, you said, I'm
gonna keep writing, I'm published books. Well, has been your
favorite process from not just getting out there but receiving
(05:11):
actual feedback if you're writing, what's your favorite part of.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Just being able to soak it all day.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
It's kind of a strange experience for me. I worked
in UH, I worked in government where I had relatively
important positions, but you're kind of in the background.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You're not in the spotlight.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
And because you're a you're a bureaucraft and suddenly you
began to publish books and people are reaching out to
you all, you know, And the most the most unusual
thing happened to me that earlier this year, I was
with friends launched some some deli and this person comes
(06:01):
running up to me and holds up his phone and
there's a photo of me.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
He says, is this you reading? So you know sort
of that you know, and you know.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I'm constantly getting messages from people I read your book
and I was really moved, and you know, I just
wanted to tell you things like that.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So it's very different. It's something sort of to get
used to.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
What do you believe is the biggest difference for you
between writing fiction and writing nonfiction?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Like you meanwhile, Well, the interesting thing, of course is
what my career. You know, my during my professional career,
I did an awful lot of writing. It was all
non fiction, supposed to non fiction. It was government, so
maybe sometimes we embellished anyways, and so you know, I
(07:04):
took a stab at writing fiction and I kind of
flourished at that, and I just thought.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
It was the right time for me to tell my family.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Story, and so I really I approached it kind of
the same way I was writing a novel. But it
didn't work out that way because you're dealing with a
real story and you can't kind of divert.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
From the truth.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And so I became very much obsessed with being accurate.
And that's a fundamental difference. And still this day, it's
been out for eight or nine months, and I so
worry about maybe there's something that's actually not right in there.
(08:02):
But it certainly did due diligence. That's a big difference. Well,
and the other, of course, is because it's it's not
just a nonfiction book. It's a nonfiction book about me, and.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
That's very very different.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
And you know, the whole idea of opening up and
telling your inner secrets and your feelings and emotions and
things like that so different, so very very different.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Speaking on that, that's an interesting doog because I can
only imagine where you. Did you have any times when
you're writing the process and you're like, oh, we're not
going there, I'm gonna shut.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
The lid on that one. Or did you just let
it all out?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It was a gradual process.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I remember the first time I showed the booked.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Someone, it was it was an editor, and it came
back and he said, I thought you were writing a memoir.
He says, well, what do you mean, And he goes, well,
you know, the reads like a biography but not quite
a memoir. And so I took it back and I
(09:25):
did some kind of heavy thinking and started editing and
inserting myself more in it. And it took really several
drafts until I fully.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Opened up, and.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Did I one hundred percent open up pretty you know,
maybe ninety five percent. I guess there are probably things
that I wasn't prepared to talk about in the book,
but not very many.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
At the end of the day, and for our audience,
I know we're only ten minutes in, but before we
get too deep into the weeds, it sounds a little
bit about your parents. What were some of your earliest
memories growing up with your parents who were other calls survivors.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Yes, so I've known. I feel I've known about the
Holocaust my whole life, partly because it's probably partly genetics,
and I just just about hearing about it.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
My earliest memory.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It's like you don't have one, because it seems like
I've always known about it. Though it's quite interesting. My
father did talk about it, but not in a great
detail and not all to get there are more bits
(11:01):
and pizza pieces. Because he was so traumatized, he had
a really difficulty speaking about it. But he would raise
it at times for one, you know, perhaps to make
a point.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Or something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
But if you sort of tried to press them and
ask questions, he would just he would get very emotional
and just kind of break down. And so my mother
was not like that. So one of the things you
can learn as a child is don't ask because you
don't want to cause pain to your parent, and so
(11:43):
you never really ask questions. But I've always knew about
the Holocaust, read so many books, but World War two
in the Holocaust, so I was always very totally aware,
even at a very young age.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
What do you think about trauma in the community of
others who.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Have had parents who were in a Holocaust survivor.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Are there ways that you see that you all.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
Talk about that, because as a heavy that's a heavy
thing to discuss as far as how people survive, how
to deal with trauma afterwards.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
So I interviewed one hundred people and they were all
either children or grandchildren of Holocaust survivors, and everybody's story
was different, how they reacted was different, but there were.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Very common threads. And one is parents.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
The parents who were survivors, even if they were open
about it, and I think the majority were not. Those
that did were very I think, very careful in what
they told their children. Want to protect them, but you know,
(13:24):
and that's why some of them didn't talk about it
at all, but as well also to protect themselves because
it was so triggering and traumatizing for them.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And then.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
What I observed as they got older survivors and near
the end of life, they.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Were start opening up.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
And I guess part of it is desistance from the
events and the trauma, but as well, I think there
was this realization that they needed to get their story
out or it would be lost, and so there was
a flurry of.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
A lot of.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Memoirs being written by survivors later in their life. To
be honest, they were also very focused early on their
life and restoring their life and making a living, amazing
families and things like that. So the Holocaust was kind
of like pushed in the background.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
I know, in Toronto.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
It was in nineteen eighty five that a bunch of
survivors got together and decided to build sort of and
build a collect money to build a Holocaust center. And
that's forty years after the end of the war, and
that's when this group of survivors began talking about it.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
And so, you know, and that's.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think very reflected the community. As far as the
children go, they didn't talk about it either. When they
were growing up. They didn't talk about with their friends,
even if their friends were also other children's survivors. It
was all It wasn't so much as a taboo subject.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
It was just too uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's a good listening to refocus the radio and watching
this online and talking to our guest today, really handler
and go to this website.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Really handlered dot com.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
My last question before we wrap up for today is,
I mean, think about the role of education and storytelling.
How do you believe that can play in finding against
ignorance and hate.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I think it's almost a losing battle right now, the
way the world is, and and.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
It seems to be more hate than ever.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Part of it is it's our education system. And also
it's the role of the internet and how people get information.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
People are actually reading history books these days, it seems
like not too many, and and people are more interested
in learning from a YouTube or TikTok video h then
from then from history, you know, from historical books and
(16:35):
things like that, And so reaching people needs.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Kind of a different strategy.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
And uh, and I think sort of the anti hate
community and that's not.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Just Jewish people, but.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Other races and and other groups that are are discriminated against.
They need to find better strategies to reach people and
make them understand and.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Pass on the truth.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
And so far, I think we're not doing well enough.
And I'm very much against hate. I don't hate people.
I don't hate groups. And I try and listen.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
To people and.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
If they're open and they're open minded, and I will
tell them my perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
If they're not, then you're waste good time. But it's
a real struggle these days and.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Becoming more and more so. And I don't have all
the answers, but I think that community leaders, politicians, religious leaders, whatever, whoever,
need to get together and find.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
A better way.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
If someone listened to this and watching us, what would
you hope the future would look like if that could happen.
I mean, it seems like you talk about this on
and on and on, but what do you think people
can do to actually step up and be that mirror
(18:26):
of working together?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think it's it's just about listening to people, and
there is not there's simes if you hate too, but.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And you know, I've had times a sort of a
loss as well. But people need to listen to each
other and understand where they're coming from and be more
tolerant of people who are different.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Than them and this is a.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Big planted with over eight billion people now and we
are not so people are sometimes asking.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Too tribal, but we're not tribes anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
It's a big you know, the world itself is a
big melting pot, and people traveling around the world many
people and see different cultures that you need to you
need to be much more open minded. And that's kind
of the world that I want to see that listens,
that's open minded, that's not afraid of people who are
(19:44):
different than them and welcome them and try to share perspectives.
And you know, I hope one day we can be there,
but I don't.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
It's not happening yet.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
And my last question would be for you is what
that said.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And with the resources you have it's available for the public.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
With your books, what do you hope your books can.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Accomplish and towards that goal of not just educating but
informing people where most likely they ignored or it just
wasn't aware else.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Well, so.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
My family story or other family stories really illustrated well
how hate can happen and how damaging it can be
the humanity, And so in a very plain way, I've
(20:50):
described it in my books about how it happened and
the impact it have, and one we need to step
back and make sure it doesn't happen again. And my writing,
my stylid writing, is such that it malcolma is very digestible.
(21:11):
And I do that on purpose. I learned that as
a pure crat how to how to write non bureacutees
and actually because I was doing what I was doing,
writing for the for the outside world. And I continue
to do that so that people will get the message
(21:32):
and we'll finish what I write.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
I know it's the last question, but I'm squeeze one more.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Am okay as an accomplished UH writer and published author,
what we give words of wisdom to any author out there?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
And it feels like maybe they'd be.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
In the game for a while and they just you know,
want to teach something or their nubie and they don't
know where to start. Basically, you some experience getting your
work out there films, share with other oundrs with something
that they can take away from your experience.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Well, one thing I can say is that the only
way to learn how to be a good writer is
to keep writing.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
That I started off as.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
A not a very good writer and it just got
better and better and better. It's it never stops getting better.
And so that's an important thing for people to understand,
is that, And if they're getting negative feedback about their writing,
don't give up. Go back and rewrite, and rewrite, and rewrite,
(22:45):
and you.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Will get better.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
And listen to people and read read because reading reading
good material teaches you how to structure your writing properly,
to rescribe things, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
So that's an important thing. But if you because I
switched from fiction to.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Nonfiction, if you're into nonfiction, even in fiction a little
bit but not the.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Same stent, you really have to do your homework. You
have to do a lot of research.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
And that's an important aspect of writing, is that even
if you're writing fiction, if you want, if you want
to if you want some realism. And I give an example.
I wrote a book about dairy farming and a dairy
farmer who who when he decided to switch to growing marijuana.
(23:44):
So I basically had to do all this research on
how to you know how to run a dairy farm as.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Well as the other part of it.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
And I remember once getting a feedback from somebody says,
I grew up on a dairy farm and I read
your book and it's obvious.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Set you you did as well.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
That's probably the biggest complicate compliment you can get because
they basically spend a half a day on a dairy farm.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Well, that's awesome. We appreciate you be on the show today.
We got it done. It was a battle to get
this done. Now I'm glad we did because it's always
worth the way, and I want to say to you
thank you for your telling me on the show today there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Thank you very well, Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
I know the technology was not was not cooperating with us.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That's the powerful tools of editing man, but appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
As always me I'm a good one.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Well, thank you very much. It was my pleasure.
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