September 13, 2024 • 27 mins
Join us for a conversation with John Chan, a seasoned entrepreneur and digital marketing expert, as he shares his journey and expertise in scaling e-commerce businesses. From designing effective ad creatives to optimizing campaign performance, John reveals his strategies for driving growth and revenue. He also opens up about his experiences as an immigrant entrepreneur, a husband-wife business team, and a Taekwondo black belt. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, you'll gain valuable insights and practical tips from John's unique blend of entrepreneurial skills, digital marketing expertise, and athletic achievements. Tune in to learn how to take your business to the next level!
John Chan is a multifaceted entrepreneur and user experience design enthusiast. He began his entrepreneurial journey at 19, dropping out of university to start a web design consultancy. This led to work with prominent companies like UBC and Basecamp, ultimately transitioning him into full-time entrepreneurship.
John has founded three businesses, including 2x Growth Agency, a digital marketing agency specializing in e-commerce and DTC brand growth through paid advertising and ad creative development. Under his leadership, the agency has managed over $6M in ad spend and generated over $30M in revenue for clients.
Beyond entrepreneurship, John invests in rental real estate, with a portfolio of four properties, and holds a black belt in Taekwondo, representing Team Canada internationally. His unique blend of skills and achievements makes him a compelling speaker for events and podcasts.
https://2x.agency/
https://x.com/jtcchan
https://linkedin.com/in/jtcchan
https://instagram.com/jtcchan
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
Thank you for tuning in to I Am Refocused Radio. For more inspiring conversations, visit IAmRefocusedRadio.com and stay connected with our community.
Don’t miss new episodes—subscribe now at YouTube.com/@RefocusedRadio
John Chan is a multifaceted entrepreneur and user experience design enthusiast. He began his entrepreneurial journey at 19, dropping out of university to start a web design consultancy. This led to work with prominent companies like UBC and Basecamp, ultimately transitioning him into full-time entrepreneurship.
John has founded three businesses, including 2x Growth Agency, a digital marketing agency specializing in e-commerce and DTC brand growth through paid advertising and ad creative development. Under his leadership, the agency has managed over $6M in ad spend and generated over $30M in revenue for clients.
Beyond entrepreneurship, John invests in rental real estate, with a portfolio of four properties, and holds a black belt in Taekwondo, representing Team Canada internationally. His unique blend of skills and achievements makes him a compelling speaker for events and podcasts.
https://2x.agency/
https://x.com/jtcchan
https://linkedin.com/in/jtcchan
https://instagram.com/jtcchan
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.
Thank you for tuning in to I Am Refocused Radio. For more inspiring conversations, visit IAmRefocusedRadio.com and stay connected with our community.
Don’t miss new episodes—subscribe now at YouTube.com/@RefocusedRadio
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaia Read. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, shama I I read.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey, welcome to I Am Refocused. Ready once again, man,
we are here again. We have another show. We have
a big show today because man, we all hear about
e commerce. We don't always know what that means because
sometimes we're just grow on social media trying to figure
out ourselves. But today we have an expert. Today we
have on there talking to John Chan and today's topic
(00:40):
isc only e commerce businesses through digital marketing. If you
don't know what marketing is, please do on YouTube it
because we have someone who's been doing this for a
good long time and he has a very impressive restum.
So first and foremost, John, I know you swamp, but
thank you for taking time.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Are you doing man, I'm doing great, Shamia, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Me so I appreciate your time. You know about this stuff.
I mean, we all hear about software as a service.
I'm going to ask you a little bit about that
in the beginning what does that actually mean? But before
I do that, kind of give the audience a little
bit part of your portfolio, all the great things you've
been able to do in your world of marketing.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
For sure, man, thanks thanks for that introduction. I mean,
I've been doing this for plost and twenty years now.
So I started coding in high school. I was kind
of a good, dirty kid. But the thing that set
me sort of dis direction was that I dropped to
school when I was nineteen, studying fire and arts. I
was disenchanted. But when I left school, I started freelancing.
I whant to get into business through like a Chat's encounter,
(01:39):
reading this book, which that or that sort of sent
me this direction of like want to start my own business,
But it wasn't really that kind of clear at the time.
I just wanted to be good at what I do,
wanted to learn a lot of different things. And so
when I spent maybe nine months or so building my
first business, I realized very quickly that even if I
had the technical skills, I had a lot of things
in life and in the world that I haven't really learned.
(02:02):
And so through maybe like freelancing for a few months,
I ended up actually being hired at the university that
I left university British Columbia out in Vancouver, Canada, and
from there I really sort of like honed my skill
sets around being a good web developer, a user experience designer,
and I was doing things like setting up research labs
and doing all kinds of things that made the organization better.
(02:25):
But fast forward a few years after I kind of
ran its course doing web design and web development, I
left that university trying to figure out my next thing,
thinking I was going to go back to consulting or freelancing,
because I kind of kept that in my back pocket.
But that didn't last very long as well, because maybe
another few months in econom a few clients I got
(02:45):
hired at a company called thirty seven Signals were the
producers of a software called base Camp, and those guys
within the web development industry are very well known for
two things. One is that they started one of the
earlier sort of software company for selling digital software and
project manch systems back into early two thousands, and they
really pioneered that. But they're also really well known for
(03:08):
being champions of remote work. So right now, you know,
post pandemic, it's a lot more common for people to
work from home or those type of things, but they're
doing the since like the early two thousands, and it's
talked about how to set up company cultures and structures
and those type of things. They really sort of like
spirit the type of thing and wrote books behind it.
But they're also well known. Four third thing, which was
they invented coding language called Ruby on rails. And so
(03:32):
you look at products like Twitter or a lot of
software companies that are built on this sort of backbone layer.
And so I had all this clout and I was
this young kid that just happened to join them, and
that exposed to all kinds of really wonderful experiences along
the way. Fast forward a few years, but that right,
it's of course I came back home from from Chicago
to Vancouver thinking I was going to go back to
(03:52):
other consulting or maybe now with a new set of
coding skills, I was going to start a software company,
only to realize that writings software was actually very hard
to learn on your own for whatever reasons that you
know won't get into. And so one of the clever
things that I was doing as I was building like
a side hustle on doing a software company and trying
to keep yourself out of code was I joined a
(04:14):
local coding boot camp as a THA basically to help
guide new students learning how to code. So coding boot camps,
if you haven't come across them, thirt these programs that
have a fast track somebody that is new to the
tech industry to go from zero coding experience to being
a decent junior programmer within eight twelve weeks, depending on
the structure of the program. And I joined as a
(04:36):
TA largely because I wanted to get access to curriculm.
I didn't want to pay for it, but it exposed
me to the repetition of just the continuous practice of
being a good software developer at these the fundamentals, and
that really set the tone for you know, going back
to building my own product company that also ran for
a few years, and so you know when that runs
course after a few more years, this is twenty sixteen,
(04:57):
twenty seventeen or so, when we build a product that
a lot of people used but we couldn't commercialize. I
at the time thought to myself and my wife I
work with, We thought that we worked really good at
marketing or user acquisition, you know, the field that we
needed and so we started hosting meetup groups and inviting
all these experts to come speak to us and again,
so I can learn and I can can get it connected.
(05:18):
Always to realize that, hey, we actually worked half bad ourselves.
And that kind of turned into like the third arc
sort of the career where I started being a professional marketer.
First started by doing small projects, you know, doing design
optimizations and doing types of like redesigns of web development,
to managing large scale campaigns. And so fast forward to today,
(05:42):
you know, maybe like fifteen, like twenty years into the career,
I've had three major arcs where I spent a good
chunk of the first early years doing web design and
user experience design and research, to writing software for a
bit for a few more years, and then now coming
to the third part, which is running marketing campaigns for
you know, seven to eight figure billion dollar brands that
(06:03):
are uh, you know, selling on digitally online. And it
can free things for ourprox reality to travel to products
that you sell on Shopify online. Things that are are
you know, some for a lot of us, but it
seemed very elusive, but it's very very comfortable for us.
That's kind of the art.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
When you look at the experience that you you took,
I mean starting out young, I mean you took a
non traditional route and you end up still successful. Was
some of the things that you believed that you had
in you that allowed you to sustain every chapter of
(06:44):
your journey being able to seceed forward Because someone who
drops out of college, I mean, we don't always hear about,
you know, those type of stories, and I think that's
very unique for you.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Sure, I mean I appreciate that question a lot, because
you're right, there has to be some driving force behind
each of those transitions, because looking ahead before you make
the transition, you'll feel really scary. And it's been rightfully
so there's a lot of unknowns, but I think you know,
the answer changes for each sort of like period. But
when I was young and when I didn't have a
(07:21):
lot of things going for me, the things I learned
was all the coding skills I had from high school,
which wasn't a lot really, But the biggest question that
kind of kept me going and that kept going me
for many years afterwards, was what's the worst that could happen?
And when you play out sort of the scenarios of
well if things didn't work out, or if things didn't
back out, I would just go back to school, right,
(07:43):
Or if I, you know, were to transition and move
away from a stable job, how how much time do
I have before I have the skill sets to can
and find my next job? And I think kind of
playing out those those risk worst case scenarios, it made
me find solace in that, you know what, the upsides
(08:04):
of not making that tradition, the things that are available
to me was far greater than me staying put. And
you know, that kind of energy helped with risk tolerance,
and it changes throughout the decades, throughout the years, Right,
I don't have the same risk tolerance as I did
in my early you know, in my early twenties. By
the same time, the other thing that kept me going
(08:27):
was when I look at how fast the internet on
the world was moving. Staying put also meant that I
was falling behind. At least I felt a sense of urgency.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
You look at tools today like AI that has been
coming up for the last you know, eighteen twenty months
or so. How and if you look at the add
of it, the internet, you know, being popularized twenty years ago,
what's the cost of not doing something about it right,
And for me, that was always been greater. And so
I've had people tell me that, oh, John, this seems
like a very courageous thing to do, and I'm like, no,
(08:57):
it actually wasn't the couratest thing to do. It didn't
seem like the greatest thing to do. It just seemed
like the least risky thing to do in my head
as I was about to make those jobs, as I
was doing those kind of cost benef analysis, and I
look back of the years, more often than not it
was the right call, but it was very hard to
predict that moving forward. But that's the kind of part
that I think it's important to make that kind of
conviction of making those judgment calls as you're evoluding what
(09:20):
is the cost of stay put?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
And not to be off topic, I just had this
pop in my head, and I thought, because when you
think about how people have that type of reaction on
the outside looking at it like wow, how did you
do this? Or wow, that must be in some deep
spiritual situation that you just man, you nailed it on
the tee. Because we kind of have that reaction, like
if we're on social media and were watching our favorite
(09:44):
basketball team, baseball team, whatever and so on. This does
this top play and they kind of been doing it
for years, and they kind of began championships and they
kind of been breaking records, and we know they're on
the way to somehow Hall of Fame had customer breath.
It's kind of crazy on outs they're looking at it
because we're like, how did that person like do that?
They make it look easy, But what we don't do.
(10:04):
What we're doing right now is peel back the layers
of time. And it's funny we talked about it before
you started to show like where we are in our life.
It is based on how we move, how we are
choosing our next way to move, and I want you
to kind of explore that because it's going to lead
(10:25):
into more into the today's shop is scaling e commerce
business through digital marketing because it's my feeling is kind
of like when we do marketing or add times or
how we get in the word of our brand success,
it's kind of like peel back in those layers of
the early beginnings.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
That's right. And I think if you get into any
field with if it's design or marketing or software or
you know, or sports, everything sort of boils down to
a few fundamentals, and so I think if you do
understand the mechanics or the fundamentals of what it really
means to do X, it's not scared. And so you're
right because when you look at you know, somebody do
(11:04):
something really impressive five years in, ten years in, you're
looking at a finished product ten years in, right, But
ten years ago, when you look back at what they
did to get started, it didn't look that impressive. But
that's how all its start. And so I think if
you recognize, or if you just take the time to
review that, or even just ask, a lot of times
we should spend less time focusing on what it looks
(11:25):
like at year ten, because sometimes that's very daunting. But
if you go back and said, hey, what did it
look like when they're starting out, and you realize how,
you know, amateurish or you know, not daunting of that,
you know the thing that they started, you realize a
lot of us actually have that available to us all along,
but most of us never got started.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And that's how we focus. We're ready to talk to
our guestterday, John Chan. You go following them on social
media LinkedIn at I still call it Twitter because I'm
a millenia and Instagram finow on Instagram is jtc chan
real easy to final today's topic scaling e commerce business
through digital marketing. So let's get into that part where
I know people are like, man, let's get through it.
(12:06):
So when it comes to scaling, someone who out there
kind of knows a little bit about how to run
as or just you know, build that e commerce business
from your experience, man, or some common mistakes that e
commerce businesses out there are making when it comes to
pay advertising, and how can they kind of fine tune
(12:28):
that root problem that could be causing them to not
having in conversions a hund of percent.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So it goes back to what I was saying earlier,
which is fundamentals. And so marketing has two fundamentals, at
least paid advertising is to fundamentals that it's really important
to understand. And the first one is basically, you have
to know how to do basic math in terms of
how do you calculate what's called the unit economics of
what is a successful campaign. And so before we get
(12:53):
into the breakdowns fundamentally running advertising online in any business,
but if it's a software company that you're on a
remote or physical product that you try to sell online
or even offline. If you're running a big and More
store and you try to sell something at a retail store,
every dollar of advertising that you spend has to get
you something back, and there's transitions and things that you
(13:15):
have to do in between. But you're just trying to
find out if I spend a dollar in advertising, can
I make three dollars back? Can I make five dollars back?
Can I make ten dollars back? And if I can't,
can I get information or data or learnings that helps
me transition towards picking at three dollars back of five
dollars back. And some aspect of it is not within
your control, like how much the ad platforms charge you.
(13:36):
That's alside with outside of your control. But the things
that are within your control are being able to measure
things properly, being able to understand within your business, what
is the cost requirements in order for you meet in
order for you to hit a profitability? So basics is,
you know you have to spend a dollar to make
three or spend a dollar to make five. But the
(13:57):
next thing is understanding that's three dollars that were five
sales that you get, not all of it is going
to be net office. So you have to figure out
what is your cost of goods sold, what is your
cost of fillment, what is your cost of your credit
card fees and all those type of things that goes
into a single unit of production. You calculate all that
and then you work backwards and say, Okay, in order
(14:17):
for me to you know, make a make fifty cents
or a dollar for every dollar spend, I need to
make three dollars in total sales or five dollars in
total SIPs. That formally sort of understanding of how to
do marketing is sort of the first fundamentals. And then
the second thing is that when you think about any
form of marketing, doesn't matter if it's digital advertising or
(14:37):
if it's you know, offline advertising that you run, you know,
on the billboard or what have you. Marketing is sales
at scale, meaning if you can't convince somebody one on
one in person why they should buy a particular product
service from you because it's not fundamentally better for the
consumer or the purchaser at the end of the day,
then why are you able to sell anything online? You can't.
(14:59):
But if you can can figure that out, all you
have to do is just figure it out. What made
someone convinced that, you know what, this is such an
amazing product service, I should buy it or I need
to buy it right now. And all you have to
do is take that messaging and have it discoverable or
shown in a form of a Google AD or in
the form of an Instagram AD, or in the form
of a web page to someone. For somebody reads here,
(15:21):
just walking them through the buyer's journey that they had
to go through order for them to be not knowing
anything about a product service to being fully convinced by
the end of it that you know what, I need
this thing right now. We've all experienced that all of
us are consumers in some way, shape or form. So
it's a matter of paying attention to what's happening within
our own psychology that made us tick that we then
(15:41):
translate into a marketing campaign. So between those two things,
the art of understanding how to sell something on mass
sales at scale versus having the basic formulate sort of
understanding that marketing and digital advertising. This job is to
put a dollar in to get through or five or
ten dollars back. Those two things will carry you through
(16:01):
a lot of the groundwork for how to build and
scale any type of business online.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
You having an insider approach knowing what is working and
trending in the ecommerce business world, especially through digital marketing.
What are some of the things that you're seeing as
far as maybe just principles because every brand is different obviously,
but we're set core principles that you feel are separating
(16:31):
the two of brand A that's very successful and scaling
consistently versus brand B that seems to plateau or god forbid,
is sinking sand.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Sure, well, the two things I would say, And it's
not necessarily a trend because those things can come and go.
But there's certain fundamentals again that basically are timeless, which
is you better be selling a product service that people
actually generally want.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
There's no level of marketing or tactics are growth hecks.
They can get around a bad product or bad service.
And so when you start with something that people generally
want and need but just few very know about or
it's not communicated, well, marketing comes in and becomes very
effective because all you're doing is just you're translating and
(17:20):
you're telling this story or narrative better is more people
have to understand it when the otherwise would not have
been able to. And so the number one rule of
marketing has nothing to do with marketing per se. It's
actually just have a great product service because you can't
fix that with marketing. You can't put lipstick on a pig,
so to speak, right, And so I think a lot
of people when they have that and they have conviction
(17:41):
behind that, the next part when they want to know,
when they know that marketing is sort of living factor,
is where they get stuck. And I think that's the
second part to it, which is once you know you
have a product service that people generally want and need,
the next thing is you have to be clear and compelling.
They're concise and compelling, meaning oftentimes especially this happens with
(18:02):
you know, you know, if you run a business on
your own. Note, there's there's some some product services are
very intuitive and easy to understand. Right, you go to
a barber, you know, I mean, we're here to get
a haircut. If you go to you know somewhere else
you're buying, uh, you know, a pair of socks or whatever, Right,
you know what the physical product is, but for a
lot of people, they don't know how to communicate the
(18:25):
whys of why someone will buy. So it's like if
you ask, like, what is it that someone bought a
pair of socks for? Or why? What is it that's?
What are the driving factors behind it? Those can get
a little more confusing for people, and so the best
way to really uncover that is to just peel back
from all the previous customers that have already purchased your
product from what are they really buying?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Are they buying something that because they have, you know,
the direct want to need or is there something behind it?
And so as you can uncover what is behind the motivations,
those becomes the groundwork for the types of angles that
you can develop in your messaging. It can help with
you know, is it that there's an underli like water
need beyond the physical thing that people can physically see
(19:06):
or understand. Driving that message home is usually the second
layer that a lot of people generally miss because they're
not sensitive to it, or that they're too close to
the problem and they don't know how to get rid
of that jargon or language that they're so accustomed to,
but that the end consumer doesn't fully understand.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
When it comes to you having an experience in managing
different clients' needs for you know, revenue, you have a
very strong record that talking about millions of impact dollars there.
So when you see someone that is they be in
(19:44):
the industry for a while, so they're not, you know,
worry about some of the basics, but they're more so
worry about how to continue their and their legacy and
their growth. What are some common ingredients that you see
people who are veterans at this that they seem to
really have polish versus someone who just gets started and
(20:08):
they're extremely frustrated. I have a tempted idea of what
you're going to ask about. I'd just like you to
test that for audience.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Well, for sure, I appreciate that. I think the things
that separates quote unquote the veterans and the people that
are habit industry and have done really well have made
billions for themselves. Sometimes it's because they've got something that
carried them through to building billions. Sometimes it's dumb luck
and it's accidental. And I think that was one of
the surprising things about you know, I mentioned in my
(20:37):
earlier my story that in the first two phases of
us building our businesses, we thought we were good at marketing,
and when we started taking our clients in twenty seventeen
twenty eighteen or so, we noticed that companies that had
billions of dollars behind them, that were doing a lot
of sales sometimes were led by companies that didn't fully
understand marketing themselves. And that was very surprising. And so
(20:58):
going back to the point about picking up product service
that is, you know, very very desperately wanted or needed.
Sometimes being in the right market or catching the right
timing of something it's more crucial than being good alone,
because we thought, you know, it was all about skill
and we want attribute it to the success of the
entrepreneur and all this sort of things. And that's definitely
a factor being in the right time, in the right place,
(21:20):
with the right product, right market, in the right price point.
There are a lot of external factors that's beyond what
the entrepreneur or founder can control, and so I think
that's sometimes misunderstood or overlooked, and that was something that's
very surprising for me. That said, once they do, every
one of them that have built millions of dollars, have
(21:41):
found one thing that worked for them, and they just
kept doing they kept exploiting it. And so for some people,
you know, between let's say twenty twelve to twenty eighteen,
it was a fantastic time to run Facebook ads because
not a lot of competing partners were on Facebook ads,
you know, selling digital products or physical products online, and
so at the time, the options for running advertising campaigns
(22:03):
were fairly sheep. And so if you caught the moment
in time where that worked, you'll see that a lot
of companies through in that sort of big phase and
that sort of get them the initial sort of traction
and then evolve into the next thing, which is, you know,
maybe figuring out a secondary channel or second third option
for how they get that new sales. But every one
(22:24):
of them, let's call it the first bit of five
million dollars or so, they all have found one formula
where they could find new entrants in quotes and leads
for their business and prospects, and they're able to provide
an offer that was very compelling that you know, both
sides was very happy to make that trade. And then
they were able to do that long enough for them
(22:44):
to have oh shoot, like I have like millions of
the bank, Now what to do next? Right, there's usually
some form of that that get in the first phase
before they transition to the next.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And for our listeners there listening, we're going to talking
to our guest John Chan and the topic of scaling
businesses through digital marketing. And I mean this is like
a masterclass for digital marketing brands period. And you as
a former athlete, because I knowing you violence us a
former athlete, you also have the unique perspective of what
(23:17):
was like to basically go the non traditional way. So
many of us have chosen to go to college and
get that education and that's okay, And people like yourself
chose a different route and that's okay. How important is
it for a person to understand that the path they
choose is their unique path and they don't necessarily need
(23:39):
to try to copy someone else's journey.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I love that because a lot of us, as you're
trying to figure out what we should do, especially the
big decisions of life, is we look around, what's what's
that person doing, or what's this person doing, or what's
my mom or dad saying, or what's you know, whatever else.
There's a lot of external pressure and frankly, it's it's
natural to have that kind of pressure because everybody wants
to tell you what you should do. But it's very
(24:04):
hard and it takes a long time for us to
introspect and uncover what I really want, what is really
right for me, And it's it's a very difficult journey,
but it's also a very important journey. And the way
you think about why it's important to uncover that value
for yourself and who you really are largely comes down
to when you think about you know, for example, let's go,
(24:25):
let's go with hiring. Right. Let's say're applying for a job. Right,
you know, you apply for a particular role, there's one
hundred applicants within that, you know, applying for the same rule,
how are you going to stand out? And so when
you look at things like well I have years of
experience or I had this particular education, that might narrow
you down to like the top thirtieth percentile, you know what, Okay,
all the people that you have experience gets tweed up,
and then you have the next you know, section of
(24:47):
people to weed out and mean like, oh, all the
people to have a degree or whatever experience that's another
sort of like group. And then you're wooden down to
like the last five or ten or twelve. Right, it's
like within that group, how do you stand up? And
then you start have to dig d into like, well,
what makes you unique? Why are you? Why is it
that not anyone I can get this job? But why
should it be you specifically? And if you could find
(25:08):
a way to tie all your personal experiences, maybe there's
something about you being you know, the oldest in your family.
You know, may if you're like an older sibling and
you got young ones to take care of, that might
set you in a very unique experience that makes you
unique within that setting. Or if you went through sports, right,
maybe you played team sports, maybe you played music, maybe
you did you know, maybe playing video games grown up, right,
(25:30):
maybe there's some aspects of very obscure sort of like
skill sets that made you think about problems or approached
in a different way. So that on the hiring side,
let's say you're hiring for, you know, a designer, or
you're hiring for an are accountant or whatever. Right, it's
like there's always people that everybody could do and in
a game long enough to have these experiences, then you know,
(25:50):
got the degree, get the credentials whatever, right, But the
ones that have a unique set of you know what,
I bring this Munich thing to the table because I
have this unique strength because I was based in a
certain way, or I come from a different background, or
that I was culturally coming from a certain thing that
may be particularly good at something, or that you know,
I learned these skilled because my mom and dad did
this thing when they were doing with the work, and
(26:12):
I skill up from them. That's uniquely you. And so
the more you can highlight and shine out all the
things that are very easy for you to overlook that
seems normal to you, and you'll realize that it's actually
very compelling for somebody else. Is why it's really important
for you to understand what makes you unique and in
some cases halve your own unique path, because that's where
it all matters at the end.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You know it. Signal Focused Radio tunj I guest today
John Chan. You can find him online on Instagram x
and LinkedIn at JTC Chan and Man, I can believe
time has gone by so fast. But in wrapping up
today's stop is scilling ecommence Businesses through digital marketing. If
someone out there wants to learn more from you, if
you have additional resources or any materials, products, services that
(26:58):
someone can tap into how and the best way find
that out.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
The best way to look for us is look up
our agency. We're at two x dot agency. That's the
U r L So that's two the letter x dot,
the number two letter x dot A G E, N
C Y. You'll find us up and you'll be able
to see all kinds of product services that we sold
in the past, and some example work that we've shown.
And basically, if you if you got a business that
(27:24):
you're running online, just book a call. It's a free
chat and they'll love to talk to you and learn
more about your business and how we can potentially help.
I think that's the best way to want to reach out.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, I'd always want to say to you John, thank
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Man SAMAI thanks for having me us to go up
on
You are listening to I Am Refocused Radio with your
host Shamaia Read. This show is designed to inspire you
to live your purpose and regain your focus. And now
here's your host, shama I I read.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey, welcome to I Am Refocused. Ready once again, man,
we are here again. We have another show. We have
a big show today because man, we all hear about
e commerce. We don't always know what that means because
sometimes we're just grow on social media trying to figure
out ourselves. But today we have an expert. Today we
have on there talking to John Chan and today's topic
(00:40):
isc only e commerce businesses through digital marketing. If you
don't know what marketing is, please do on YouTube it
because we have someone who's been doing this for a
good long time and he has a very impressive restum.
So first and foremost, John, I know you swamp, but
thank you for taking time.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Are you doing man, I'm doing great, Shamia, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Me so I appreciate your time. You know about this stuff.
I mean, we all hear about software as a service.
I'm going to ask you a little bit about that
in the beginning what does that actually mean? But before
I do that, kind of give the audience a little
bit part of your portfolio, all the great things you've
been able to do in your world of marketing.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
For sure, man, thanks thanks for that introduction. I mean,
I've been doing this for plost and twenty years now.
So I started coding in high school. I was kind
of a good, dirty kid. But the thing that set
me sort of dis direction was that I dropped to
school when I was nineteen, studying fire and arts. I
was disenchanted. But when I left school, I started freelancing.
I whant to get into business through like a Chat's encounter,
(01:39):
reading this book, which that or that sort of sent
me this direction of like want to start my own business,
But it wasn't really that kind of clear at the time.
I just wanted to be good at what I do,
wanted to learn a lot of different things. And so
when I spent maybe nine months or so building my
first business, I realized very quickly that even if I
had the technical skills, I had a lot of things
in life and in the world that I haven't really learned.
(02:02):
And so through maybe like freelancing for a few months,
I ended up actually being hired at the university that
I left university British Columbia out in Vancouver, Canada, and
from there I really sort of like honed my skill
sets around being a good web developer, a user experience designer,
and I was doing things like setting up research labs
and doing all kinds of things that made the organization better.
(02:25):
But fast forward a few years after I kind of
ran its course doing web design and web development, I
left that university trying to figure out my next thing,
thinking I was going to go back to consulting or freelancing,
because I kind of kept that in my back pocket.
But that didn't last very long as well, because maybe
another few months in econom a few clients I got
(02:45):
hired at a company called thirty seven Signals were the
producers of a software called base Camp, and those guys
within the web development industry are very well known for
two things. One is that they started one of the
earlier sort of software company for selling digital software and
project manch systems back into early two thousands, and they
really pioneered that. But they're also really well known for
(03:08):
being champions of remote work. So right now, you know,
post pandemic, it's a lot more common for people to
work from home or those type of things, but they're
doing the since like the early two thousands, and it's
talked about how to set up company cultures and structures
and those type of things. They really sort of like
spirit the type of thing and wrote books behind it.
But they're also well known. Four third thing, which was
they invented coding language called Ruby on rails. And so
(03:32):
you look at products like Twitter or a lot of
software companies that are built on this sort of backbone layer.
And so I had all this clout and I was
this young kid that just happened to join them, and
that exposed to all kinds of really wonderful experiences along
the way. Fast forward a few years, but that right,
it's of course I came back home from from Chicago
to Vancouver thinking I was going to go back to
(03:52):
other consulting or maybe now with a new set of
coding skills, I was going to start a software company,
only to realize that writings software was actually very hard
to learn on your own for whatever reasons that you
know won't get into. And so one of the clever
things that I was doing as I was building like
a side hustle on doing a software company and trying
to keep yourself out of code was I joined a
(04:14):
local coding boot camp as a THA basically to help
guide new students learning how to code. So coding boot camps,
if you haven't come across them, thirt these programs that
have a fast track somebody that is new to the
tech industry to go from zero coding experience to being
a decent junior programmer within eight twelve weeks, depending on
the structure of the program. And I joined as a
(04:36):
TA largely because I wanted to get access to curriculm.
I didn't want to pay for it, but it exposed
me to the repetition of just the continuous practice of
being a good software developer at these the fundamentals, and
that really set the tone for you know, going back
to building my own product company that also ran for
a few years, and so you know when that runs
course after a few more years, this is twenty sixteen,
(04:57):
twenty seventeen or so, when we build a product that
a lot of people used but we couldn't commercialize. I
at the time thought to myself and my wife I
work with, We thought that we worked really good at
marketing or user acquisition, you know, the field that we
needed and so we started hosting meetup groups and inviting
all these experts to come speak to us and again,
so I can learn and I can can get it connected.
(05:18):
Always to realize that, hey, we actually worked half bad ourselves.
And that kind of turned into like the third arc
sort of the career where I started being a professional marketer.
First started by doing small projects, you know, doing design
optimizations and doing types of like redesigns of web development,
to managing large scale campaigns. And so fast forward to today,
(05:42):
you know, maybe like fifteen, like twenty years into the career,
I've had three major arcs where I spent a good
chunk of the first early years doing web design and
user experience design and research, to writing software for a
bit for a few more years, and then now coming
to the third part, which is running marketing campaigns for
you know, seven to eight figure billion dollar brands that
(06:03):
are uh, you know, selling on digitally online. And it
can free things for ourprox reality to travel to products
that you sell on Shopify online. Things that are are
you know, some for a lot of us, but it
seemed very elusive, but it's very very comfortable for us.
That's kind of the art.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
When you look at the experience that you you took,
I mean starting out young, I mean you took a
non traditional route and you end up still successful. Was
some of the things that you believed that you had
in you that allowed you to sustain every chapter of
(06:44):
your journey being able to seceed forward Because someone who
drops out of college, I mean, we don't always hear about,
you know, those type of stories, and I think that's
very unique for you.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Sure, I mean I appreciate that question a lot, because
you're right, there has to be some driving force behind
each of those transitions, because looking ahead before you make
the transition, you'll feel really scary. And it's been rightfully
so there's a lot of unknowns, but I think you know,
the answer changes for each sort of like period. But
when I was young and when I didn't have a
(07:21):
lot of things going for me, the things I learned
was all the coding skills I had from high school,
which wasn't a lot really, But the biggest question that
kind of kept me going and that kept going me
for many years afterwards, was what's the worst that could happen?
And when you play out sort of the scenarios of
well if things didn't work out, or if things didn't
back out, I would just go back to school, right,
(07:43):
Or if I, you know, were to transition and move
away from a stable job, how how much time do
I have before I have the skill sets to can
and find my next job? And I think kind of
playing out those those risk worst case scenarios, it made
me find solace in that, you know what, the upsides
(08:04):
of not making that tradition, the things that are available
to me was far greater than me staying put. And
you know, that kind of energy helped with risk tolerance,
and it changes throughout the decades, throughout the years, Right,
I don't have the same risk tolerance as I did
in my early you know, in my early twenties. By
the same time, the other thing that kept me going
(08:27):
was when I look at how fast the internet on
the world was moving. Staying put also meant that I
was falling behind. At least I felt a sense of urgency.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
You look at tools today like AI that has been
coming up for the last you know, eighteen twenty months
or so. How and if you look at the add
of it, the internet, you know, being popularized twenty years ago,
what's the cost of not doing something about it right,
And for me, that was always been greater. And so
I've had people tell me that, oh, John, this seems
like a very courageous thing to do, and I'm like, no,
(08:57):
it actually wasn't the couratest thing to do. It didn't
seem like the greatest thing to do. It just seemed
like the least risky thing to do in my head
as I was about to make those jobs, as I
was doing those kind of cost benef analysis, and I
look back of the years, more often than not it
was the right call, but it was very hard to
predict that moving forward. But that's the kind of part
that I think it's important to make that kind of
conviction of making those judgment calls as you're evoluding what
(09:20):
is the cost of stay put?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
And not to be off topic, I just had this
pop in my head, and I thought, because when you
think about how people have that type of reaction on
the outside looking at it like wow, how did you
do this? Or wow, that must be in some deep
spiritual situation that you just man, you nailed it on
the tee. Because we kind of have that reaction, like
if we're on social media and were watching our favorite
(09:44):
basketball team, baseball team, whatever and so on. This does
this top play and they kind of been doing it
for years, and they kind of began championships and they
kind of been breaking records, and we know they're on
the way to somehow Hall of Fame had customer breath.
It's kind of crazy on outs they're looking at it
because we're like, how did that person like do that?
They make it look easy, But what we don't do.
(10:04):
What we're doing right now is peel back the layers
of time. And it's funny we talked about it before
you started to show like where we are in our life.
It is based on how we move, how we are
choosing our next way to move, and I want you
to kind of explore that because it's going to lead
(10:25):
into more into the today's shop is scaling e commerce
business through digital marketing because it's my feeling is kind
of like when we do marketing or add times or
how we get in the word of our brand success,
it's kind of like peel back in those layers of
the early beginnings.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
That's right. And I think if you get into any
field with if it's design or marketing or software or
you know, or sports, everything sort of boils down to
a few fundamentals, and so I think if you do
understand the mechanics or the fundamentals of what it really
means to do X, it's not scared. And so you're
right because when you look at you know, somebody do
(11:04):
something really impressive five years in, ten years in, you're
looking at a finished product ten years in, right, But
ten years ago, when you look back at what they
did to get started, it didn't look that impressive. But
that's how all its start. And so I think if
you recognize, or if you just take the time to
review that, or even just ask, a lot of times
we should spend less time focusing on what it looks
(11:25):
like at year ten, because sometimes that's very daunting. But
if you go back and said, hey, what did it
look like when they're starting out, and you realize how,
you know, amateurish or you know, not daunting of that,
you know the thing that they started, you realize a
lot of us actually have that available to us all along,
but most of us never got started.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And that's how we focus. We're ready to talk to
our guestterday, John Chan. You go following them on social
media LinkedIn at I still call it Twitter because I'm
a millenia and Instagram finow on Instagram is jtc chan
real easy to final today's topic scaling e commerce business
through digital marketing. So let's get into that part where
I know people are like, man, let's get through it.
(12:06):
So when it comes to scaling, someone who out there
kind of knows a little bit about how to run
as or just you know, build that e commerce business
from your experience, man, or some common mistakes that e
commerce businesses out there are making when it comes to
pay advertising, and how can they kind of fine tune
(12:28):
that root problem that could be causing them to not
having in conversions a hund of percent.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So it goes back to what I was saying earlier,
which is fundamentals. And so marketing has two fundamentals, at
least paid advertising is to fundamentals that it's really important
to understand. And the first one is basically, you have
to know how to do basic math in terms of
how do you calculate what's called the unit economics of
what is a successful campaign. And so before we get
(12:53):
into the breakdowns fundamentally running advertising online in any business,
but if it's a software company that you're on a
remote or physical product that you try to sell online
or even offline. If you're running a big and More
store and you try to sell something at a retail store,
every dollar of advertising that you spend has to get
you something back, and there's transitions and things that you
(13:15):
have to do in between. But you're just trying to
find out if I spend a dollar in advertising, can
I make three dollars back? Can I make five dollars back?
Can I make ten dollars back? And if I can't,
can I get information or data or learnings that helps
me transition towards picking at three dollars back of five
dollars back. And some aspect of it is not within
your control, like how much the ad platforms charge you.
(13:36):
That's alside with outside of your control. But the things
that are within your control are being able to measure
things properly, being able to understand within your business, what
is the cost requirements in order for you meet in
order for you to hit a profitability? So basics is,
you know you have to spend a dollar to make
three or spend a dollar to make five. But the
(13:57):
next thing is understanding that's three dollars that were five
sales that you get, not all of it is going
to be net office. So you have to figure out
what is your cost of goods sold, what is your
cost of fillment, what is your cost of your credit
card fees and all those type of things that goes
into a single unit of production. You calculate all that
and then you work backwards and say, Okay, in order
(14:17):
for me to you know, make a make fifty cents
or a dollar for every dollar spend, I need to
make three dollars in total sales or five dollars in
total SIPs. That formally sort of understanding of how to
do marketing is sort of the first fundamentals. And then
the second thing is that when you think about any
form of marketing, doesn't matter if it's digital advertising or
(14:37):
if it's you know, offline advertising that you run, you know,
on the billboard or what have you. Marketing is sales
at scale, meaning if you can't convince somebody one on
one in person why they should buy a particular product
service from you because it's not fundamentally better for the
consumer or the purchaser at the end of the day,
then why are you able to sell anything online? You can't.
(14:59):
But if you can can figure that out, all you
have to do is just figure it out. What made
someone convinced that, you know what, this is such an
amazing product service, I should buy it or I need
to buy it right now. And all you have to
do is take that messaging and have it discoverable or
shown in a form of a Google AD or in
the form of an Instagram AD, or in the form
of a web page to someone. For somebody reads here,
(15:21):
just walking them through the buyer's journey that they had
to go through order for them to be not knowing
anything about a product service to being fully convinced by
the end of it that you know what, I need
this thing right now. We've all experienced that all of
us are consumers in some way, shape or form. So
it's a matter of paying attention to what's happening within
our own psychology that made us tick that we then
(15:41):
translate into a marketing campaign. So between those two things,
the art of understanding how to sell something on mass
sales at scale versus having the basic formulate sort of
understanding that marketing and digital advertising. This job is to
put a dollar in to get through or five or
ten dollars back. Those two things will carry you through
(16:01):
a lot of the groundwork for how to build and
scale any type of business online.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
You having an insider approach knowing what is working and
trending in the ecommerce business world, especially through digital marketing.
What are some of the things that you're seeing as
far as maybe just principles because every brand is different obviously,
but we're set core principles that you feel are separating
(16:31):
the two of brand A that's very successful and scaling
consistently versus brand B that seems to plateau or god forbid,
is sinking sand.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Sure, well, the two things I would say, And it's
not necessarily a trend because those things can come and go.
But there's certain fundamentals again that basically are timeless, which
is you better be selling a product service that people
actually generally want.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
There's no level of marketing or tactics are growth hecks.
They can get around a bad product or bad service.
And so when you start with something that people generally
want and need but just few very know about or
it's not communicated, well, marketing comes in and becomes very
effective because all you're doing is just you're translating and
(17:20):
you're telling this story or narrative better is more people
have to understand it when the otherwise would not have
been able to. And so the number one rule of
marketing has nothing to do with marketing per se. It's
actually just have a great product service because you can't
fix that with marketing. You can't put lipstick on a pig,
so to speak, right, And so I think a lot
of people when they have that and they have conviction
(17:41):
behind that, the next part when they want to know,
when they know that marketing is sort of living factor,
is where they get stuck. And I think that's the
second part to it, which is once you know you
have a product service that people generally want and need,
the next thing is you have to be clear and compelling.
They're concise and compelling, meaning oftentimes especially this happens with
(18:02):
you know, you know, if you run a business on
your own. Note, there's there's some some product services are
very intuitive and easy to understand. Right, you go to
a barber, you know, I mean, we're here to get
a haircut. If you go to you know somewhere else
you're buying, uh, you know, a pair of socks or whatever, Right,
you know what the physical product is, but for a
lot of people, they don't know how to communicate the
(18:25):
whys of why someone will buy. So it's like if
you ask, like, what is it that someone bought a
pair of socks for? Or why? What is it that's?
What are the driving factors behind it? Those can get
a little more confusing for people, and so the best
way to really uncover that is to just peel back
from all the previous customers that have already purchased your
product from what are they really buying?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Are they buying something that because they have, you know,
the direct want to need or is there something behind it?
And so as you can uncover what is behind the motivations,
those becomes the groundwork for the types of angles that
you can develop in your messaging. It can help with
you know, is it that there's an underli like water
need beyond the physical thing that people can physically see
(19:06):
or understand. Driving that message home is usually the second
layer that a lot of people generally miss because they're
not sensitive to it, or that they're too close to
the problem and they don't know how to get rid
of that jargon or language that they're so accustomed to,
but that the end consumer doesn't fully understand.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
When it comes to you having an experience in managing
different clients' needs for you know, revenue, you have a
very strong record that talking about millions of impact dollars there.
So when you see someone that is they be in
(19:44):
the industry for a while, so they're not, you know,
worry about some of the basics, but they're more so
worry about how to continue their and their legacy and
their growth. What are some common ingredients that you see
people who are veterans at this that they seem to
really have polish versus someone who just gets started and
(20:08):
they're extremely frustrated. I have a tempted idea of what
you're going to ask about. I'd just like you to
test that for audience.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Well, for sure, I appreciate that. I think the things
that separates quote unquote the veterans and the people that
are habit industry and have done really well have made
billions for themselves. Sometimes it's because they've got something that
carried them through to building billions. Sometimes it's dumb luck
and it's accidental. And I think that was one of
the surprising things about you know, I mentioned in my
(20:37):
earlier my story that in the first two phases of
us building our businesses, we thought we were good at marketing,
and when we started taking our clients in twenty seventeen
twenty eighteen or so, we noticed that companies that had
billions of dollars behind them, that were doing a lot
of sales sometimes were led by companies that didn't fully
understand marketing themselves. And that was very surprising. And so
(20:58):
going back to the point about picking up product service
that is, you know, very very desperately wanted or needed.
Sometimes being in the right market or catching the right
timing of something it's more crucial than being good alone,
because we thought, you know, it was all about skill
and we want attribute it to the success of the
entrepreneur and all this sort of things. And that's definitely
a factor being in the right time, in the right place,
(21:20):
with the right product, right market, in the right price point.
There are a lot of external factors that's beyond what
the entrepreneur or founder can control, and so I think
that's sometimes misunderstood or overlooked, and that was something that's
very surprising for me. That said, once they do, every
one of them that have built millions of dollars, have
(21:41):
found one thing that worked for them, and they just
kept doing they kept exploiting it. And so for some people,
you know, between let's say twenty twelve to twenty eighteen,
it was a fantastic time to run Facebook ads because
not a lot of competing partners were on Facebook ads,
you know, selling digital products or physical products online, and
so at the time, the options for running advertising campaigns
(22:03):
were fairly sheep. And so if you caught the moment
in time where that worked, you'll see that a lot
of companies through in that sort of big phase and
that sort of get them the initial sort of traction
and then evolve into the next thing, which is, you know,
maybe figuring out a secondary channel or second third option
for how they get that new sales. But every one
(22:24):
of them, let's call it the first bit of five
million dollars or so, they all have found one formula
where they could find new entrants in quotes and leads
for their business and prospects, and they're able to provide
an offer that was very compelling that you know, both
sides was very happy to make that trade. And then
they were able to do that long enough for them
(22:44):
to have oh shoot, like I have like millions of
the bank, Now what to do next? Right, there's usually
some form of that that get in the first phase
before they transition to the next.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And for our listeners there listening, we're going to talking
to our guest John Chan and the topic of scaling
businesses through digital marketing. And I mean this is like
a masterclass for digital marketing brands period. And you as
a former athlete, because I knowing you violence us a
former athlete, you also have the unique perspective of what
(23:17):
was like to basically go the non traditional way. So
many of us have chosen to go to college and
get that education and that's okay, And people like yourself
chose a different route and that's okay. How important is
it for a person to understand that the path they
choose is their unique path and they don't necessarily need
(23:39):
to try to copy someone else's journey.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I love that because a lot of us, as you're
trying to figure out what we should do, especially the
big decisions of life, is we look around, what's what's
that person doing, or what's this person doing, or what's
my mom or dad saying, or what's you know, whatever else.
There's a lot of external pressure and frankly, it's it's
natural to have that kind of pressure because everybody wants
to tell you what you should do. But it's very
(24:04):
hard and it takes a long time for us to
introspect and uncover what I really want, what is really
right for me, And it's it's a very difficult journey,
but it's also a very important journey. And the way
you think about why it's important to uncover that value
for yourself and who you really are largely comes down
to when you think about you know, for example, let's go,
(24:25):
let's go with hiring. Right. Let's say're applying for a job. Right,
you know, you apply for a particular role, there's one
hundred applicants within that, you know, applying for the same rule,
how are you going to stand out? And so when
you look at things like well I have years of
experience or I had this particular education, that might narrow
you down to like the top thirtieth percentile, you know what, Okay,
all the people that you have experience gets tweed up,
and then you have the next you know, section of
(24:47):
people to weed out and mean like, oh, all the
people to have a degree or whatever experience that's another
sort of like group. And then you're wooden down to
like the last five or ten or twelve. Right, it's
like within that group, how do you stand up? And
then you start have to dig d into like, well,
what makes you unique? Why are you? Why is it
that not anyone I can get this job? But why
should it be you specifically? And if you could find
(25:08):
a way to tie all your personal experiences, maybe there's
something about you being you know, the oldest in your family.
You know, may if you're like an older sibling and
you got young ones to take care of, that might
set you in a very unique experience that makes you
unique within that setting. Or if you went through sports, right,
maybe you played team sports, maybe you played music, maybe
you did you know, maybe playing video games grown up, right,
(25:30):
maybe there's some aspects of very obscure sort of like
skill sets that made you think about problems or approached
in a different way. So that on the hiring side,
let's say you're hiring for, you know, a designer, or
you're hiring for an are accountant or whatever. Right, it's
like there's always people that everybody could do and in
a game long enough to have these experiences, then you know,
(25:50):
got the degree, get the credentials whatever, right, But the
ones that have a unique set of you know what,
I bring this Munich thing to the table because I
have this unique strength because I was based in a
certain way, or I come from a different background, or
that I was culturally coming from a certain thing that
may be particularly good at something, or that you know,
I learned these skilled because my mom and dad did
this thing when they were doing with the work, and
(26:12):
I skill up from them. That's uniquely you. And so
the more you can highlight and shine out all the
things that are very easy for you to overlook that
seems normal to you, and you'll realize that it's actually
very compelling for somebody else. Is why it's really important
for you to understand what makes you unique and in
some cases halve your own unique path, because that's where
it all matters at the end.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You know it. Signal Focused Radio tunj I guest today
John Chan. You can find him online on Instagram x
and LinkedIn at JTC Chan and Man, I can believe
time has gone by so fast. But in wrapping up
today's stop is scilling ecommence Businesses through digital marketing. If
someone out there wants to learn more from you, if
you have additional resources or any materials, products, services that
(26:58):
someone can tap into how and the best way find
that out.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
The best way to look for us is look up
our agency. We're at two x dot agency. That's the
U r L So that's two the letter x dot,
the number two letter x dot A G E, N
C Y. You'll find us up and you'll be able
to see all kinds of product services that we sold
in the past, and some example work that we've shown.
And basically, if you if you got a business that
(27:24):
you're running online, just book a call. It's a free
chat and they'll love to talk to you and learn
more about your business and how we can potentially help.
I think that's the best way to want to reach out.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, I'd always want to say to you John, thank
you for your time.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Man SAMAI thanks for having me us to go up
on
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