Facilitating Acceptance and Inclusion with Bernardo Ferdman

Why is inclusion important? Because we can't lead people who don't feel included. Listen to Professor Bernardo Ferdman discuss inclusion with Samhita Jayanti. Leadership means being kinder to others and to yourself. Bernardo believes that the foundation for inclusion is created when people feel safe and engaged and explains his methodologies to reduce negative self-talk for both students and leaders. When we can accept ourselves, we learn to accept others. When we include each member of a team, we get to the best performance and outcomes. Listen to Bernardo's top tips for leaders now.

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Episode Transcript

(00:03):
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(01:07):
Thanks for listening and see you nexttime. Hi everyone, Welcome to Coaching
Performance and Wellness by IDMS Coaching.I'm your host Samita Jayanti. Today we
have Bernardo Ferdman joining us. Bernardo'sa seasoned leadership and organizational development consultant with

(01:29):
over thirty five years of experience.He's passionate about creating inclusive workplaces and edits
inclusive leadership and diversity at work.His expertise in coaching, consulting, and
facilitation makes him a sought after advisorin the field. Bernardo, Welcome to
the show. Thank you. It'sso good to be here. Bernardo.

(01:52):
In my introduction I obviously focused onthe obvious things, But what didn't I
say that you'd like our listeners toknow about you? Thank you, Thanks
for that opportunity. I think,as you said, I'm really passionate about
inclusion, really creating a world anda place is to work where more of
us can really bring all of ourenergy, our identities, our power and

(02:14):
do things that are meaningful for usand for the world, do things that
matter together and also a more justworld right as well as more inclusive.
And so to do that, Iwork with leaders and organizations to bring inclusion
to life. To make it realin our mindsets, our interactions and behaviors,
our systems, and doing that meansreally connecting to who we are.

(02:36):
So I think it's so important totalk about ourselves, you know, to
really ground ourselves in our backgrounds,our histories, our identities. So just
a little bit about that. Inrelation to me, I'm originally from Argentina.
I was born in Argentina. AsI like to joke, at the
top of the world, right,it's to shift our mindset about the world
and what's on top and what's inthe bottom. Right. I immigrate to

(03:00):
the United States with my family innineteen sixty six when I was seven years
old, so do the math.I'm almost sixty five, so that's another
identity. And in New York welived in Queens That's where I learned the
English, the Queen's English, Ilike to joke, although that joke doesn't
work anymore, you know, thenthe sink or swim approach at the time.

(03:21):
And then when I was eleven,we moved to Puerto Rico, so
I had to learn a new kindof Spanish, new kind of English.
Also, I'm Jewish. My familywas in Argentina in the eighteen nineties.
So im fourth generation in Argentina,and so I was a minority there,
and then in the United States,I was not only a minority as a
Jewish person, but also among Jews. So I've always been really conscious of

(03:44):
the complexity of identity, the varietiesof any particular identity, what it's like
to be an immigrant, just howlife affects our opportunities and our paths.
I was a beneficiary of the nineteensixty five immigration law in the United States
that allowed people to come basically witha job offer and get a visa as
my father for all of us,and so people who are crossing the riot

(04:09):
are not all that different in someways and their search for opportunity, but
they're living in a different system thatmakes it harder for them than it was
for us at the time. Also, my middle class background made a difference
to the fact that my father wasa professional, you know that kind of
thing. And so in Puerto Rico, I relearned Spanish, but with a

(04:29):
slightly different variety, right, andso a lot of adaptation in my life.
I'm a psychologist by training, havea PhD in psychology from Yale University,
did that in the nineteen eighties.I was a professor for most of
my career, for about thirty they'realmost thirty two years, first at the
University at Albany State University of NewYork, and then at the California School

(04:51):
of Professional Psychology, where I leftat the end of twenty seventeen as a
distinguished Professor Emeritus and went full timeinto consulting, which I've been doing that
in my whole career, but sincethe end of twenty seventeen, I've been
doing full time and I work withall kinds of organizations to really, as

(05:11):
I said, to bring inclusion tolife from a systemic perspective, from a
learning perspective, really at all levelsof the organization, and really to foster
inclusive leadership, which we can talkabout, I'm sure, Hich we'll talk
a lot about. Yeah, fantastic, so Bernardo. To start us off,
I wanted to show our listeners ashort video of yours where you talked

(05:32):
about inclusion from the perspective of theindividual, right, And I love what
you told us about yourself because manytimes I think people just don't take the
time to understand the experiences and thebackground of each individual because they are such
a driver in who we are andhow we behave and how we react to

(05:56):
both people on situations. So let'stake a quick look and I see the
experience of inclusion at the individual levelas the basic element of inclusion. I

(06:17):
experience inclusion when I feel safe andengaged, when I sense that I belong
and that I can make a difference, When I feel trusted, valued,
respected, and supported. When Ibelieve that I can be fully myself and
that I can contribute to my groupand to the organization, and that I'm

(06:38):
empowered and growing into my best selfwithout compromising or losing important aspects of who
I am. And it's not enoughfor me to experience this. I need
to see that other people like meand other people who are part of multiple
identity groups are also experiencing inclusion.But I do. In the video,

(06:59):
you talk talked about the basic elementsof what allows an individual to feel included.
You work with a lot of companiesand individuals. Give us two examples
of environments where individuals do feel included, and what are the facets or features

(07:20):
of that culture that enable that.You know, I think it varies from
person to person. I think youmentioned that how it's individualized, and I
think that's so important. There isn'tone size fits all in this right.
Inclusion, as I try to explain, is constructed in every interaction. Right,

(07:40):
we have to really figure out what'sgoing to work for each person.
You know, I'm left handed,and so what works for a right handed
person is not going to work fora left handed person, just at a
very simplified level, right, Butwe're much more complex than that. We
have so many different identities. Butas I mentioned in my introduction, what
it means to be Jewish for meis different than someone else. What it
means to be Latino is different forme than another Latino. Even though we

(08:03):
share some things, we're also different. And so an environment that foster's inclusion
has to make space for that,not to over categorize people, but also
to honor those identities, to makespace for the different ways in which we
express our connections to our group membershipsand identities and backgrounds. And so I
think making space to inquir into that. Being feeling safe is so important,

(08:26):
right, creating physical and psychological safetyfor the self, but also for members
of one's group as well. It'snot enough for me to feel personally safe,
physically and psychologically. Other people whoI feel are like me in some
way also need to feel that.And I need to have some sense of
involvement in the collective, right,it has to matter to me. I
have to have some influence on decisionmaking, even if things don't go my

(08:50):
way. Does my voice matter?Am I respect it and valued? And
can I be authentic and bring mywhole self to work? And so the
conditions that create that, that's whatwe need to so look at. And
it starts with those conversations that peoplehave with their supervisors, with their colleagues,
and the space that the system createsfor those conversations. Anyway we can
get into that, but those aresort of the basic parts for me.

(09:13):
No, I'm glad you brought thatup, because you know, obviously we're
a coaching company. We're huge believersin the fact that leadership fundamentally has really
shifted over these last ten or fifteenyears, right, And the big shift
is that the obligation and responsibility requirement, you know, whatever word one wants

(09:37):
to use that a leader has ofyou know, any team, at any
level of the organization to take thetime to understand each individual on their team,
build a connection with them, understandwho they are. And this really
gets into you know, for awhile the sort of professional cultural zeitgeist was

(10:01):
work is very separate from the personaland so they shouldn't, you know,
kind of interact in the workplace.But that's just not the case, right,
because we bring our whole selves towork. We don't leave like half
of ourselves at home every day.So tell us a little bit about because
so many of our listeners, Ithink, you know, struggle with this

(10:24):
that the role of a leader fundamentallyhas really shifted and that leader has to
be humanistic and pathetic and take thetime to relate to each individual one on
one. Yeah, I think that'strue. I don't think that's a new
idea. If you think of atheory why versus theory X and that kind
of thing, that you have atransformational leadership. I mean, we've been

(10:45):
on these themes for a long time. In some ways. I think what's
different is paying attention to the connectionto our different identities and to the systems,
systems of oppression or exclusion, waysin which those are covert. Right
in twenty twenty, I think therewas a broader rediscovery for many people of

(11:05):
that process right of you know,when there was a kind of racial reawakening
after George fullyg was killed, manypeople, I mean, some of us
have been in this field for avery long time, and it wasn't new.
It's something we've seen happening and thatwe've worked to address for a long
time. But I think that's theadditional piece that I think is so important

(11:30):
in leadership context. And by theway, you know, we're talking about
leaders people who are perhaps in positionsof authorities, I think what we're referring
to, but I like to talkabout leadership, you know, is it
something that everyone can manifest in someway, to really manifest inclusive leadership,
which is really about, as Isaid, bringing inclusion to life, making
it real at all levels of thesystem, in those interpersonal interactions, in

(11:54):
giving people space to be authentic bymodeling it, by inquiring and being curious
about others, making it not onlyokay but necessary to have a space where
we can have that feeling of notseparating parts of ourselves. Right, there's
still a zone for privacy. Thereare things that maybe we don't necessarily want
to or need to be talking aboutall the time, but we need to

(12:16):
be able to adjust to each other, to the realities of life. As
when we prepared for this today,we checked in with each other. We
got to know each other little bit. Where are we right now, what's
happening in our lives that would helpus really be fully present in this conversation.
So that's the kind of sharing thatI think is so important, sometimes
not the kind that's virustic or exploitative, but the kind that helps people feel

(12:39):
grounded and whole in a way wherethey can connect to their strengths and their
hopes and what they're contributing to thewhole in a way that's connected to who
they are, as opposed to feelinglike there's some stranger or have to adapt,
and that feeling of having to adaptto go into that discomfort is often
stronger for people and groups that havenot been represented or that are considered weird

(13:01):
or exotic or different. Right,And sometimes people look similar to people around
them, but they have differences.Maybe they have a different family situation,
maybe their sexual orientation is different thanothers, Maybe they have a different history,
maybe they went through some trauma intheir past. Maybe they're you know,
have a neurodiverse, neurodiversity. Sothere's many things that are not often

(13:24):
seen. And even if the thingsthat are seen or not, you know,
if you just go with some automaticassumption about what that means, you
could be wrong. And so theleadership imperative is to allow space for that
those differences and that individuality of thatexpression, but without losing sight of the
fact that we are connected to thosemany identities and they are different for people

(13:48):
in some systematic ways that have ledto you know, power differences, even
the ability to express themselves. Youknow, and we've heard from many people
who say, you know, it'sidea of bring your whole self to work.
It's not as easy for some peopleas brothers, because when they do
that, they get shut down,right, And so I love two things
that you just said in particular.You know, one is being a leader

(14:13):
or the word leader is different fromleadership, which everyone can manifest and demonstrate.
And the other is that it isn'talways about the visible but also about
the invisible and the lived experiences thatpeople have which are very instrumental to who
they become and who they are andhow they act. Right. Yeah,

(14:37):
and so you mentioned coaching and Ithink in that context it's particularly important.
I coach a fair number of peopleleaders and this is a big theme.
Right. Whether we're explicitly focusing ondiversity and inclusion or not, it's still
relevant, right. The idea ofbeing an inclusive, exclusive leadership is relevant

(14:58):
even in organizations that don't have aformal diversity and inclusion or equity initiative.
It's this idea of really, asyou mentioned, individualizing our interaction with people
in a way that helps that wherethere's self insight. So part of the
coaching process for me is helping peopleto give them permission to talk about these

(15:18):
things, to make those connections,to not shout out part to themselves,
to go into that vulnerability earlier inour careers rather than late. They know.
For me, it took a longtime to feel more grounded in myself,
to give myself permission to come outmore fully as who I am,
to not feel like there's necessarily adanger in that, or even if there

(15:39):
is, that it's better than hidingout because I spend so much of my
life just trying to fit in rightand to meet other people's expectations, and
that doesn't get my best self andso part of the leadership, part of
coaching is helping people bring that outof themselves and then model that for others.
Right to create that safe and invitingspace for others so important. So

(16:02):
I want to quote a short excerptfor you and for our listeners from an
article in The Guardian that I wasreminded of as I was getting ready for
our conversation today. It dates backto January twenty twenty, and this is
the quote developing human minds are likesponges, and ours were submerged in ever

(16:25):
more individualistic language. Phrases such asunique, personal self, me and mine
were used with increasing frequency in lyrics, TV shows and books, and as
an aside, I would add socialmedia to this. Right, this immersion
took its toll, and analysis ofdata from almost eighty countries shows how the

(16:48):
majority have shown market increases in individualisticattitudes over recent decades. And the study
that they're referencing was a twenty seventeenresearch paper titled Global Increases in Individualism and
it looked at fifty one years ofdata. You know another data point in
the US, when I contrasted toEurope and many other parts of the world,

(17:12):
we have no societal tradition of publicservice. Right. And when I
say public service, I don't meaneverybody needs to go serve in the armed
forces. It could be teaching ata school, it could be working at
a local city office of some kind. Right, any kind of public service,
and the absence of it in theUS is a really marked contrast with

(17:37):
many other parts of the world.I would argue that that builds community,
and builds civic responsibility, and createssome blue and fabric among us. So
I really struggle sometimes with the ideathat inclusion focuses so much on the individual

(18:00):
and their sense of belonging. AndI'm really curious for your views, because
you spend so much of your timesteeped in this, working with people on
this. That is it at allunintentionally? Perhaps? Right? Life is
all about unintended consequences driving us apartin some way. It's an interesting conundrum.

(18:25):
I think it's possible if it's framedthat way, If inclusion is framed
us let me just do whatever Iwant, whenever I want. I think
we're in trouble, not only allof us, including the person who is
doing that. I think inclusion ismore complex than that. It's a systemic
process. It's really it works atdifferent levels. We talked about the individual
experience of inclusion, but we haveto look at both that, what leads

(18:49):
to that and what it leads toAnd I think if we're trying to create
more experiences of inclusion for more people, the paradox is that we have to
adapt to each other, right.I mean, I talk about this in
the context of comfort and discomfort.It's one of the paradoxes that I've written
about and talk about a lot.There's at least three that I've really explained

(19:11):
in detail, but I think ingeneral there's a lot of them. This
idea that there's seemingly contradictory elements thatare really part and parcel of the phenomenon,
even though they feel contradictory. Andso comfort and discomfort is one key
one there, And so we wantto create more comfort for more people.
So I feel free to be myself, to bring that whole self as you

(19:33):
talked about, to feel more integratedas a person, rather than split apart
from parts of myself, to tapinto not only what makes me who I
am, but where my strengths lieand what my hopes and contributions are meant
to be so in that sense,Yes, we need to focus on ourselves.
We need to help people develop intowho they are, not who somebody
else imagines them to be. Rightat the same time, there's two things

(19:56):
that come up with that. Oneis that the more that I do that,
the more that we create that space, and more I'm going to run
into people who are different, whofeel weird to me, who are unique
in some way, who don't fitmy understanding of what you know, the
typical thing is, and who mightfeel deviant, hopefully statistically and not morally.
And so I'm going to have morediscomfort, not less right. And

(20:17):
so I to both how do Ihave both more comfort and more discomfort?
And also how do we spread together? How do we together spread that discomfort
around more equitably? As I saidbefore, those of us who come from
some minoritized identity or who you know, have not don't fit the standard norm
of what's expected or whatever, mayfeel more discomfort than someone who just moves

(20:41):
around blissfully without really thinking about it. Right where they don't have to think
about, Okay, where am Iin today and who am I today?
They just do themselves, whereas forsome people that constantly have to think about
what am I? What am Idressing? What am I wearing? Can
I talk about that or not?So that we want more comfort for those
people, and the people who havebeen so blissful, we want some discomfort

(21:03):
for them. That's a privilege thatwe need to really understand. Right.
The power to sort of define realityis something that we have to spread around,
right, and so it's about balancingthat equation of comfort discomfort. But
it's not it's goods. They're goingto be in constant tens for everyone,
right, And so we have toreally think about that. How do we
become comfortable with the discomfort of inclusion, not just assume that, Okay,

(21:26):
everybody's going to just do whatever theywant, whenever they want. That's the
other piece is that inclusions not aboutanything goes. We really have to think
about what does it mean to bepart of a group, a community,
a society where we are having thosedifferences, where we believe they're important.
Where you know, in the UnitedStates, the motto is a plural busunum
from many one. What does thatreally mean? Does that mean we're all

(21:48):
going to homogenize? I hope notthat's really not how I understand that.
I think what it means is thatwe maintain the many and by strengthening those
many different strands, identities, perspectives, is experiences, we are stronger.
We are a better one, right, which has all these components, like
a quilt or a tapestry. That'sthe metaphor that I really like. You

(22:08):
don't lose the strands or the components, but it makes much more beauty and
strength together, right. I mean, I don't know if that fully addresses
your question about individualism. I thinkthat's a larger conversation because it has to
do with sort of what's happening,you know, sociologically, demographically, so

(22:30):
many other factors, some of whichI'm not an expert on and I'm an
observer, but I think they're importantin this context. Right, when we're
coaching, when we're trying to worktowards strategically or otherwise to create inclusion in
organizations, we have to be awareof that what are people bringing in,
what's the larger culture, what's beingimported, and what's being exported. Oftentimes
it's in the workplace that people learnhow to engage across differences. Right,

(22:53):
We're more likely to encounter differences sometimesthan in our sort of segregated existences,
right or particularized. And so there'sthings that can happen in workplaces. There's
leadership that can occur that will helpthe larger context right to maybe develop more
of that notion of service or atleast collaborativeness, right, co construction and

(23:15):
participation. That's a hard one.It's a big challenge these days, but
I think a lot in the workplace. You can't get anything done without collaborating,
a partnership and complex organizations. It'sa puzzle that we're all putting together.
And if people just think me,me, me, it's not going
to work. Yeah, we can'tdo it all ourselves or know everything ourselves.
We really depend on each other.Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree

(23:38):
more. So. I want toshow our listeners another short video of you
talking about how the role of everyleader is determinative in creating an inclusive culture.
Let's take a quick look and listen. Now, this model illustrates what

(24:08):
I mean by systemic and integrative inclusioninvolves multiple levels of analysis and action.
I've already talked about the individual levelof the experience of inclusion, at the
base of that model. What happensat the higher levels flows down, so
that inclusive ideologies and values in societycan affect how organizations affect address inclusion,

(24:30):
as well as how we incorporate inclusiveclimates and that context. That organizational context
affects how leadership is defined, whatkind of leadership are we striving for,
what kind of leadership is considered worthy, and also how leadership is expressed,
and what leaders do to be inclusive, and that in terms of effects the

(24:51):
norms and behaviors that get manifested inour work groups, and how each of
us demonstrates inclusive behavior or doesn't towardseach other, it also flows back,
so it's down and up. Myindividual experience and my behavior can affect the
norms and the values in the groupsthat I'm part of and how those particular
groups function. So Pertado I mentionedearlier that we define leaders as really anyone

(25:18):
at any level of the org chartthat is managing a team effectively. Right,
and you and I both know thatleadership has never before in our lives
been more important than it is now. Right, the world is in a
very unsettled state, and time andagain we see you know, either good

(25:44):
leadership or the lack thereof affect everyfacet of our society. So I think
it's really important for our listeners tounderstand in terms of the paradox that you
were talking about earlier, which Ilove the comfort and discomfort coexisting and getting
comfortable with that coexistence of those twothings. What are the other two paradoxes

(26:11):
that you mentioned, and I loveyou to tell our listeners about. Sure.
The first one is really about thisidea of whether when we are part
of a collective, do we justlet it all hang out or do we
completely change and adapt? Right?And it's really we have to both more

(26:33):
fully bring ourselves and we also haveto change in some way to be part
of that collective, right, Andso's that's I think the first one.
It's this idea of like belonging,Like what does that really look like?
What does it mean to belong?How do I have to do myself?
And what do we demand of eachother in terms of those changes? Right?
If I you know, I mean, let's say I just love to
hang out in bathrooms all day,but I'm wearing a shirt today, you

(26:56):
know for this UF I mean,that's not the I'm just using that as
an example. But you know,so the question is how can I do
that in a way that feels authenticenough, right? But that's it's related
to what you said earlier about howdo we do stuff together? There's always
mutual adaptation, even to people,even you know, I imagine twins have
to adapt to each other anytime we'rewith a different person. I mean even

(27:19):
maybe sometimes even to ourselves right atdifferent times. But it's just a nature.
Part of human existence is mutual adaptation. The challenge is that when there's
power involved, right, and somepeople have to adapt and others don't,
or when you know, some peoplelose their potential contributions to the group.
So this is not just an individualchallenge, it's a collective challenge. How

(27:41):
do we create a space where wefind that balance right between those two imperatives
that really coexist total you know,assimilation, which I don't think is helpful,
or just totally letting it all hangout no matter what, regardless of
how it affects other people the situationand what it contributes or doesn't. So
those are the extremes that are nothelpful. That connects to the second paradox.

(28:06):
Which has to do with boundaries andnorms. You know, inclusion is
not as I said about letting everythinggo. You need a clear sense of
what is it that people are beingincluded into. You know, in the
United States, I mentioned the mottowhen people come to the United States,
what does it mean to be anAmerican? Right now? If you only
let people who were here before nineteentwenty you know, and historically define that,

(28:30):
I think we lose something. Butif you're constantly changing it every second,
that's also problematical something. So it'sthat tension between adapting to the changes
in ourselves and each other, aswell as the composition of groups, which
needs to happen, but not doingit so often is so much that we
just can't get any work done.So this is an ongoing tension as well.

(28:56):
So if you know, we plansomething for today and we were a
certain way of doing this and suddenlyour conditions change, do we have space
to even talk about it? Andthis is a tension for leaders, you
know, especially in a coaching situation. It's like, Okay, these are
the parameters, let's just address them. You know, too bad, just
fit in right. I had acoaching conversation with a leader the other day,

(29:17):
you know, where there was achallenge. This person is very much
focused on being inclusive and so on, but it's challenged by people who have
ada related accommodations sometimes because sometimes thequestion is like, okay, is it
too much or we have work toget done, right, and so this
person it's a legitimate challenge that peoplehad, Right, So how do we
negotiate that? What are one's obligationsif I have an accommodation, what are

(29:40):
my obligations or requirements to sort ofmanage myself versus requiring my employer or my
manager to take care of me nomatter what. Right, And it's a
constant dance. There isn't a simplesolution to that, right. It means
engaging in dialogue and constructing what thoseboundaries and norms are in a way that
works ideally for as many of usas possible, and also making it very

(30:03):
clear, being very strong about thenorms of inclusion, right in other words,
really creating space for difference to meas a fundamental requirement of an inclusive
team or organization. And so leadershipit has to be very strong about that
thing, you know, And wesaw this tension it's coming to a head
right now in this whole battle overyou know, anti semitism on campuses or

(30:27):
anti Palestinian statements as well, rightwith the congressional hearings recently where university presidents
were challenged around you know what statementsconstitute violations of their policy. And I
don't think there's a simple solution tothat. I mean, I do think
violence is terrible, but I thinkwe need a better way to frame the

(30:48):
conversation that maybe takes account of thistension and really helps people learn how to
be together, because ultimately the issueis how can we be together in this
one world with our differences. Isn'tabout one group suppressing another, Yeah,
I mean part of the problem isthat it isn't a conversation, and it's
become a series of sound bites,right And as a result, those sound

(31:12):
bites can constantly be taken out ofcontext and then you know, sort of
whip up whatever impressions they have theeffect of whipping up. And in the
same way that for leaders to beeffective, or for leadership to be effective,

(31:34):
one has to learn and manifest thepatience and interest to kind of meet
every individual where they are. Ithink in our society. We need to
manifest the patience and the empathy tounderstand situations in a holistic way rather than

(31:56):
just kind of grab onto the soundbite and form a judgment. I think
this sort of tendency to opinion andjudgment and the constant sharing thereof is just
increasingly problematic. Yes, and Ithink you know, as you're speaking,
what I'm thinking about is another elementthat perhaps we haven't fully discussed. We

(32:20):
kind of alluded to it. Butthe idea is that all developing individually and
collectively. This idea of a staticself, I think is part of the
problem, and it also relates tothis tension around individualism that we talked about.
Yeah, so if we can reallythink about ourselves as becoming and really
thinking about where are we going toget influenced? You know, what's going
to influence us to become our bestselves? What is going to who are

(32:46):
my reference points? You know?How do you retain a learning mindset?
Right? Absolutely exactly, And sothat's another part of the imperative. Another
imperative for inclusive leadership is creating thatmindset for oneself in one's team and in
one's organization in a way that isn'tabout me telling you what to do.
That's why I try to avoid theword training. I love the coaching approach

(33:07):
because it's really about people discovering theirown solutions. It's about co creating some
kind of future that is grounded inone's own aspirations, identities, background,
but also being open to new influencesand possibilities. This idea of just these
completely separate groups that are totally different, or this idea every group has been

(33:29):
influenced by others too. Human historyis about those relationships, right, So
this idea that this is this cultureand this is this culture and they have
completely separate is problematic, right,And I think if we can touch and
get in touch with how that istrue for us individually and then how that
plays out in workplaces or collaborative efforts, I think we can address this.

(33:51):
But development is so important. Whatare we growing into as ourselves and in
our work together? And so howdo we co construct a relationship ship,
whether it's temporary or long term orwhatever it is? Right, we're in
relationship with each other with our differences, and so we have to negotiate how
much we adapt to each other,what our boundaries and ORMs are and how

(34:13):
we deal with comfort in discomfort goingback to these tensions or paradoxes. Yeah,
absolutely, supernaro. Last question,our mission as a company is to
activate, accelerate, and elevate peopleusing coaching. And when you think about
your own life and work, whohas been or maybe it's more than one,

(34:39):
but who has been the best coachor set of coaches that you've had
during your life and experience? Wow? Well I wasn't prepared for that.
That's okay, Yeah, yeah,maybe I can tell you the kind of

(35:00):
coach or inspiration as opposed to aspecific person. I think people who have
seen the positive in me, whohave helped me see the positive in myself
right, who have helped me developmore confidence and less self criticism. I
tend to be very self critical andnow to get rid of negative self talk.
Yeah, and which for me isrelated to negative talk about others critique.

(35:24):
Right, As a professor, itwas very hard for me to you
know, when I would read adissertation or a paper. I mean,
I can't tell you how many studentsI tortured, right, I feel bad
about it, but it's also kindof was my style and in some way
still is there in me, andI really have to proactively learn. I've
proactively learned to be more positive,to take an appreciative approach, to find

(35:45):
the strengths in other people and inmyself and say, hey, that was
great. I loved when you didthat. Thank you for that. You
know, I really appreciated that particularthing. That's taken some growth on my
part. So the people that havedone that for me. You know,
a director of my program when Iwas a professor who sat me down and

(36:05):
said, what are your goals inthe future, as opposed to other directors
who just wanted to use me asa token, you know, to achieve
whatever they wanted. That was sorefreshing and helpful. Right, So that
inspired me, you know, tofind to do that for others, to
pass it on. Right. SoI think you know, a colleague of
very close colleague who I want askedthis question of how can I be more

(36:28):
kind to students, and she said, well, be kind to yourself.
I mean that just hit me andin a very powerful way, and it's
stuck with me. I mean,I don't remember the exact quote, but
the feeling just stuck with me foryou know, has been with me for
fifteen twenty years, you know,and it's something I strive for. You
know, when I critique something,it's still hard to do because I immediately
go to what's we're saying? Right, I can't spritique me about that,

(36:51):
And so it's an ongoing process.But also recognizing that so people who are
vulnerable themselves and model it for mebut are still powerful, you know,
to me, that's also been thekind of coach and leader that has really
inspired me and helped me find mystyle. Amazing. That's a great note
to end on. I think weshould all be kinder to ourselves. Absolutely.

(37:12):
Thank you, yes, thank youso much for being with us today.
Thank you, it's been great.Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever
you listen and leave us a review. Find your ideal coach at www dot
viidmix dot com. Special thanks toour producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.