June 1, 2023 • 48 mins
How can writing, ancient history and modern forensic psychology interact? Let me count the ways...
Guest: Avanti Centrae
—-----------------
Promo: Curious Cat
Disclaimer: Gemma Harris
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
—-----------------
Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Guest: Avanti Centrae
—-----------------
Promo: Curious Cat
Disclaimer: Gemma Harris
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
—-----------------
Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
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(01:34):
the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is eightdouble zero two seven three eight to double
five. You matter, Hey,this is Kate. Were you one of
those kids who always wanted to rate? A lot of us were there is
(01:59):
something that we just revered about thewritten word or about bookstores or libraries.
Maybe it was just me and allmy friends, but I don't think so.
I think a lot of you wholisten to the show fall into that
category as well. That there's justthis reverence for the written word. And
(02:21):
as I've discovered myself, having thatreverence isn't enough to make you able to
do it. Like I've tried,and maybe I'll try again, but I'm
better with the spoken word. Myguest today has released several novels, so
(02:43):
she has found the magic that ittakes to either physically or digitally put pen
to paper and create fully fleshed outstories. Her name is Avanti Centre and
her most recent book is called Cleopatra'sVendetta. As you might expect when you
(03:07):
get two admitted nerds like we justwere, with a lot of varied interests,
this starts talking about her books andthen goes everywhere else. So we
have a bit of time travel,we have a bunch about forensic psychology,
(03:28):
and we'll talk about Cleopatra. Areyou sure you really want to know?
This is ignorance was bliss? Thisis a Vauntie sentree. I'm a I'm
(04:12):
an author. I write thrillers.They're generally full of intrigue, history,
science and mystery. I wrote theVan Ops thriller series. There's three books
in that series, The Lost Power, Solstice, Shadows, and the Dunes
Named Medallion. Just a couple ofmonths ago, Cleopatra's Vendetta was released and
it's a bit of a spinoff fromthe Van Ops series. So readers who
(04:35):
have enjoyed Maddie Baron will will beinterested to see some of the spinoff characters
that make an appearance in Cleopatra's Vendetta. But it's a it's a standalone as
as they all are. And anyway, I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Thank you for having me on yourshow, thank you for coming to play.
(04:56):
And I'm not going to pretend tohave any degree of gravitas or grown
up in about this. Is thatthis is take two for us because I
have children and so as far asanyone out there knows they're still alive.
That's fine. So have you,as an adult always been an author or
(05:18):
have you spent some of your adultlife doing anything else. Spent quite a
bit of time in my adult lifedoing other things. I was one of
those kids that wanted to be anauthor when I grew up, but life
gotten the way quite a bit,and I didn't end up seriously pursuing it
until I was almost fifty, andthat was about ten years ago. So
(05:40):
for the last ten years, I'vebeen pursuing it quite steadily and have produced
the four books that I mentioned earlier, and have another about half done.
And I'm just really pleased to havegarnered, you know, a little bit
of critical acclaim. My books havewon ten different awards, and more importantly
(06:00):
to me, people who read themseem to really respond emotionally, and so
that that makes my little heart,you know, happy, grows three sizes.
Yeah, it's like the Grinch,you know, my heart just has
grown multiple sizes as a result ofmy writing career. And it's it's just
so much fun. I really getinto doing the research. Each of my
(06:25):
books generally has some sort of historicalfigure or something that has to do with
history. I mentioned, you know, and kind of blurbed it out,
you know, intrigue, history,science, and mystery. But often it
revolves around some sort of historical character. So in the case of the book
that we're talking about today, Cleopatrais kind of front and center, and
(06:46):
boy, she was a lot offun to research. I think that our
modern culture has made her out tobe, you know, just sort of
this beautiful seductress who was all aboutMark Anthony and Julius Caesar, and she's
so much more than that. Haveyou ever had any interest in Cleopatra to
an extent? Yeah, I understandthat. I mean, she was effectively
(07:08):
a female political leader when such athing didn't exist, right, and she
decided, yeah, okay, that'slet me tell you where you can put
your expectations. I'm going to dowhat I have to do. And so
because I think certainly my generation grewup and maybe the most a lot of
us knew about Cleopatra was the songwalk Like an Egyptian by the Bengals.
(07:32):
Yeah, that one, which isnot perhaps historically accurate perhaps. So what
did you tell me some things thatyou learned? Yeah? Oh, oh
my gosh. So For one thing, she spoke like nine languages, including
Troglodyte, which I was surprised tolearn as actually a language Ethiopian, I
(07:57):
think, if I'm not mistaken,she was the first Egyptian ruler since the
time of Alexander who spoke Egyptian.For you, history buffs out there.
When Alexander died, some of hisgenerals took over Egypt, the Ptolemy's and
so she was a couple hundred yearslater from that line, and they were
(08:18):
all Macedonian, so she wasn't actuallyEgyptian. She was Macedonian, but she
bothered to take the time to learnGreek, which I thought was pretty cool.
She had coins minted in her image. You know, hey, I'm
the beautiful Cleopatra. Look at meon a coin, which was clever because
in a time without social media orTV, most of her subjects had no
(08:41):
idea who she was or what shelooked like. So I thought that was
pretty clever. Her city, Alexandria, was kind of like the New York
of its time. It was amelting pot, but it was also technologically
advanced. They had things like treadmilland coin operated vending machines. Okay,
(09:03):
and y'all, this is like acouple hundred years before Christ, so several
hundred you know years back then,so thousands of years you know, from
us at this point, right,So pretty cool, the advanced, and
they had just, you know,the main drag in Alexandria. I'm kind
(09:24):
of an architecture geek. It waswide enough that nine chariots could go buy
abreast, you know. So youthink about our little main streets and you
know, you can fit one carboth ways and maybe somebody can park on
each type. No nine chariots abreast, So this huge, you know,
main drag. She had a numberof temples built, and she may not
(09:48):
have died from an ASP bite.Historians think that she was probably far too
clever for that. The the asppoison was probably pretty comfortable and made people
like do spasms and things. SoI used that in the story. A
lot of this stuff that I learnedwhile doing research, I was able to
(10:09):
pull into the story. Things likeshe was a jokester. She and Mark
Anthony would dress up in costume,not just on Halloween, but just on
random nights and they would trump aroundand do like a bar crawl in Alexandria,
dressed in costume. You know,hey, we're just you know,
(10:30):
mom and pop cruising around having abeer at the end of the day.
So she would you be able tofigure out what her constituents were thinking in
disguise. So it's not surprising thatwhen she met Julius Caesar, you know,
she rolled herself up in some sortof sack. But yeah, she
was incredibly smart and charming and wasone of the wealthiest people in the world
(10:54):
at the time. That's why Romewas courting her because Egypt had so much
money, and so between the twoleaders of Rome who were trying to use
that, you know, her coffers, she wielded a lot of power.
So she's probably one of the mostpowerful women in the last several thousand years.
(11:16):
Fascinating all the way around, andnot just by Bengal standards. Yeah,
I follow, and I mean it'show do you choose the historical figures
it do you feel a personal connectionor is it that you wish you felt
a personal connection. It's more aboutwhat fits the story and the theme of
(11:37):
the story, right, So Igenerally have a theme that's kind of one
of the first things that I pick, and it's for me it's like the
frame of a house, but alsothe design of a house. Right,
So with a house, you canhave a ranch, a farmhouse, McMansion,
(11:58):
a cape cod Spanish. Right,You've got all these different types of
homes, Victorian craftsmen, you know, the list goes on. Well,
you're not going to if you're asmart architect, you're not going to take
elements from all of those different stylesand try to glom them together. You're
(12:20):
going to stick with you know,kind of people's expectations. Right, I'm
buying a suburban ranch home or I'mbuying an old Victorian. So the same
thing with how I work the themesof my books. I know, I
kind of picked the theme and forCleopators Vendetta, it was it was just
perfect because we've got some themes inthere around propaganda and truth is one of
(12:46):
the big themes. And one that'sanother thing that I learned while I was
doing all that research is that probablyone of the main reasons why she and
Mark Anthony lost that war is becauseOctavian, who was the nephew of Julius
Caesar, waged a propaganda campaign againstCleopatra and Mark Anthony, calling Cleopatra a
(13:13):
whore, a harlot, you know, daughter of Hades, all this kind
of stuff. And he made statuesof she and Mark Anthony Bleed. I'm
not sure how he did that,but and he would topple their statues,
put up leaflets. So for thoseof us who think that, you know,
(13:35):
the crap that we see on socialmedia is brand new. Propaganda has
been around. It was old evenin her time. I hate to tell
you guys, but it's been aroundfor a really long time. And so
that's one of the themes in thenovel is, you know, the history
of propaganda and how it plays outtoday. We've got some bad guys who
are using deep fake technology, whichis, you know, the modern version
(14:00):
of propaganda. So she fit,you know. And there's another theme about,
you know, women's empowerment. Sowho better than Cleopatra to fit that
theme. So that's kind of howI pick some of the historical elements of
my novels. It's it's a it'sa tough one because there are times,
(14:20):
well let me let me back upand ask first, are your novels set
in current day or are they setin the past. There's generally a prologue
in the past. So in Cleopatra'sVendetta, our first the prologue, so
our first exposure into the story isCleopatra is waiting for her spy to bring
(14:43):
her the poison, and so she'spacing in a balcony, you know,
wondering where he is and if hewas able to get the poison and if
he was able to fulfill another missionthat she had set for him. So
we do have one scene in thepast, and then the rest of the
novel is in present time. Andthat method, although not utilized in the
(15:09):
book that I'm currently writing, eachof the van Ops novels also has a
prologue that's told wait, maybe not, maybe not Solstal Shadows. Actually I
give that prologue away to people whosign up for my newsletter. But The
Lost Power definitely has an interesting prologuethat starts when the current At that time,
(15:37):
the King of Spain is fighting themoors to get Alexander the Great's mysterious
Egyptian weapon. So, to answeryour question, most of my work takes
place in current time. And thereason I ask, and I'm not going
to name drop, I would neverwell, I probably would. It depends
on what kind of them would I'min but I'm not going to now name
drop a different author on your episode. But I recently read a book that
(16:00):
is set in it's fuzzy but basicallycurrent day, okay, and the author
it was it was it was publishedand I want to say twenty seventeen something
like approximately, and the author talksabout a global epidemic that turns into pandemic
(16:22):
right whoops? You know? AndI always wondered, like I I have
not I don't think I have thepoll to have that person on. Even
if I did, I don't knowthat I would have like a honeius to
ask like, did you did youjust hide under a rock for all of
twenty twenty and apologize to everybody yousaw, like I swear I had nothing
to do with this or what youknow what I mean? Or did you
(16:47):
use it as pr to say,look, I'm predicting the future. Right,
that'd be kind of terrifying in itsown way. But like I said,
do you have is that a fearfor you? Or is that I
hope for you that it turns outyou accidentally on purpose predict or identify something
that maybe people weren't prepared for.Oh, that's a great question. So
(17:07):
let's dive a little bit into thethird Van Ops novel called The Doom's Name
Medallion and the historical figure and thatone is Nostradamus, And the whole theme
in that book is about can yousee the future? How far would people
go to the future to see thefuture. And in that book, we've
got a sixteen year old girl whopredicts that China invades an outlying island in
(17:30):
Taiwan. Right, so I reallyhope that that does not happen. So
you know, that's sort of theshort answer to your question. But the
whole topic of being able to seeand tell the future is so fascinating to
me that I wrote a whole bookabout it. The Maddie is the heroine
(17:51):
of the van Ops series and shehas had a couple of situations where she's
had dreams that come true, andone of those was her mother's passing and
her brother Will, who's her twin, they fight all the time, and
he wants her to be able toharness that power, you know, to
be able to see the future oncommand. She's like, oh, Will,
(18:15):
that's just not how it works atall. But yeah, that book
was a lot of fun Nostre Damas. There was a Business Insider article about
the number of things that many peoplebelieve he really did predict, like the
Great Fire of London, for instance, or one of the kings and queens,
(18:37):
the ones that were beheaded. Idon't know if that was Marie,
Antoinette and Louis. Yeah, yeah, thank you, so yeah, pretty
fascinating. Have you ever known anybodythat could see the future? Okay,
so here's the thing. No,but I can make you believe I can
(18:59):
that you can. Okay, makeme make me believe you can. You
have to have a deep understanding ofthe person and of how they see the
world, and of what's important tothem and what they are likely to notice,
which means therefore what they are notlikely to notice. And if you
bring the things that they are nottypically likely to notice into their conscious thought
(19:22):
in a way that fits with theirworldview, and you have a reasonable understanding
of how the world itself rolls,suddenly things happen that feel like you're predicting
the future. And if you speakjust vaguely enough, they lean in,
they buy in. That's you know. So tarot cards, for instance,
(19:45):
if I were to do a tarotspread, which I live in Salem,
Massachusetts, and so I mean it'spart of the like when you buy a
house, they have you sign athousand documents and you get your own tarottack
could just you know, but Ifelt like, you know, there are
a lot of people in Salem whotruly believe in Wicca or their pagan roots
(20:07):
or whatever, and so I feltlike, you know, we're able to
speak intelligently with my literal neighbors orto show respect. I'm going to learn
tarot and so I did. Andthe thing about tara is it's all worded
just vaguely enough that two people livingin like complete opposite lives, with complete
(20:30):
opposite mindsets can walk away going,WHOA, that's creepy. How did you
know? And the answer is Isaid the same words to both people,
but you use a different inflection.You speak to them and include aspects of
their past or ways that you knowthat they see the world and it creates.
(20:52):
And also there's just a simple likeI understand, Like in my case,
I'm not a sociologist, but Iunderstand a fair degree of sociology.
I am a psychologist. I understandhow individuals work within the larger picture,
and so I can say like,yeah, I didn't. Don't you remember
I said that was pretty likely ithappened. And here we are, and
(21:15):
whether we're talking on the micro levelor the macro level, like so,
as far as the pandemic is concerned, I didn't predict it, but a
lot of people did. And that'sjust just playing the odds right, right,
And as long as you're careful notto get too detailed and too specific,
you could be like, look,see nailed it. Yeah exactly.
(21:37):
You don't say there's going to bea great fire of London in nineteen oh
two, you know, you sayin the city in which there's a bridge
there will be a great fire.There are forensic psychologists and another assessment professionals
who will try and cut corners inthat exact way, and we're trained don't
(21:59):
do that. We're to tell youhow to do it so that you are
conscious of it and so that youdon't do it, because you don't want
to be sitting on the stand givingtestimony and having them ask well how did
you know this, and have yousay, well, I just played the
odds, your honor, because thatis exactly how you get yourself kicked out
of the trial, right, Yeah, yeah, So tell me a little
(22:19):
bit more about forensic psychology. Youknow, I read your bio and was
pretty pretty curious. I've never meta forensic psychologist before, So tell me
a little bit about that. I'mgiven a question, is this person competent
to stand trial? Or what istheir diagnosis? Or where would they most
(22:40):
safely for themselves and others be housedafter conviction? That kind of thing,
and I would use a mix ofinterview and structured tests, the raw shok,
the MNPI, that kind of thing, and you come up with an
answer. Yeah. And I meanwhen it comes to like competency to stand
trial, it's really vious when somebody'snot. That's why you don't hear a
(23:02):
lot of not guilty by reason ofinsanity cases because those wash out before they
ever walk into the courtroom. Sothat was what So my job was doing
a lot of one on one timewith this person to figure out here's the
quest and and that's how I wouldapproach it with the persons. Here's the
question I've been told to answer.You know, when I think of forensic
(23:23):
psychology, I think, you know, like delving into the criminal mind,
and you know, what is drivingpeople to be criminals? Right? Or
to join a cult like in Cleopatra'sVendetta. You know what drives people to
do bad things? Are there anyforensic psychologists that do that? You know?
(23:45):
And maybe your jobs were just notthere or is that not part of
the Ballywick of the forensic psychologists.A good forensic psychologist will coach everything in
terms of opinion and in terms ofthe individual. So not everybody will join
a cult for the same reason.A lot of the reasons that we commit
crimes are incredibly mundane. We wantmoney, we want drugs, we want
(24:08):
sex, and so it doesn't it'sit's less, it's a lot less exotic.
There's also a lot by the wayto do the actual job, there's
a lot of waiting. If anybody'sever been to court, they know that.
You just you just it's it's it'slike it's like being on a plane
flight. There's a couple of minutesat the beginning of a couple of minutes
(24:30):
at the end, and sometimes inthe middle where there's a lot of activity,
and otherwise you're just sitting. You'rejust waiting. That's it, and
that's that's really what my job waswas a lot of just hanging out and
waiting, and so, like,some people join a cult because they want
a sense of belonging. Some peoplejoin a cult because they want protection of
other members around them, or they'relonely, or they're looking for meaning in
(24:55):
the world, and you know,and all of those are very different people.
Yeah, and so there's no suchthing as an answer to that.
And whenever I hear people start totalk about, well, this is why
people join cults, and I'm like, shutting, yeah, you know why
again the number of people what makesme even a little crazy. Like I
name my aneurisms, you know,at times just for fun, and one
(25:17):
of them is whenever I hear somebodysay, well, I would never and
I'm like, oh god, youknow, Like a common one is the
I would never confess to something Ididn't do. And that's this anneurism over
here, because I'm like, youknow what, if I get you,
you give me thirty six hours,and I can make you confess that you've
killed someone who's still walking and talkingout in the world. Because if you
(25:38):
get tired enough and you're hungry andyou're scared, and you believe that if
you just say the words I wantto hear. And you're probably on the
lower end of the IQ spectrum,and you're frightened right now of the potential
results. And I haven't let yousmoke. I haven't let you had captine.
(26:00):
I haven't let you talk to yourmom, whatever the case is,
or use the bathroom. You'll sayanything to me. Yeah, I've had
people come up on my show beforewho you know, before I hit record,
I asked, you want to beanonymous, and I've had people this
is adorable, by the way,tell me, oh, I could never
be anonymous because everybody knows my voice. And I'm like, you idiot,
(26:23):
Like, I don't typically say itout loud unless I know them real well.
But the answer is, if Icould be talking to your mother,
and if I tell you to expectto hear my neighbor speaking, you'll be
like, Wow, your neighbor soundsjust like my mom. Crazy. Huh,
(26:44):
Hell, you know what I mean. And so so there's a lot
of like we hear what we expectto hear. And there's electronic filters too
that you could apply. Yeah,but I would never I would rather play
head games than technology games. Youknow. I'm built that way. But
so you know, it's that thatfeeling of could I get you to falsely
confess absolutely? And that's a madeup number, but a whole bunch of
(27:11):
the false confessions that are out therethey reach. We can't. As soon
as they get that bathroom break,as soon as they get that nap,
as soon as they get that drink, whatever it is that they're hoping for,
they're like, wait, what didI just say? I didn't mean
that exactly. I only meant itthen, I don't mean it now.
So yeah, it makes me alittle bit crazy with people like I would
(27:33):
never kill somebody, and I'm like, you know what, in the right
circumstances, all of us would.I just have to find your circumstances self
defense for instance, you know,defense of another if you're high enough,
defense of someone that you love exactly, or just defense on a child,
random stranger, fear the accident,you know, bar fights. Like,
(27:56):
there's lots of ways that it endsup being technically assault or technically murder because
someone is hurt or someone is dead. That's pretty technical. But that yeah,
you know, you sitting here talkingto me, you're probably not gonna
Yeah, I played, I playwith that in The Lost Power. The
(28:18):
theme of that one is non violence. And Maddie starts out she's an akido
expert, and I don't know ifyou know, but akido is all about
non violence, right. So shestarts out, you know, swearing on
a stack of Bibles that she wouldnever you know, hurt a fly,
much less, you know, killsomebody. And at the end of the
book, those things are really challenged. So it's it's an interesting, Uh,
(28:41):
it's interesting to me that you knowyou also like those types of challenges.
I think they make fiction good.But it also makes for a great
conversation. And you know, you'reyou're a student of life, right,
I mean, that's largely what whatpsychology isn't It's also largely what I think
being a decent human being is isstudying other people and paying attention to other
(29:03):
people and seeing other perspectives. Andthat was the thing that I wanted to
ask. Is there things in thecourse of your research? Is a sort
of a twofold question of or havebeen there have been things in your research
that have gone not just been asurprise to you, but have gone against
what you had previously believed. Andwhen you encounter that do you use it
(29:27):
anyway or no? Trying to thinkif there would be an example like that.
I mean, what if Cleopatra wasactually dumb as a turn up and
just had really good advisors, youknow, right then I probably wouldn't have
used it, you know. Frankly, one of the things I like to
(29:48):
do at the end is kind ofdo a fact from fiction kind of thing.
And I one of the things thatjust gives me a huge kick is
when I'm doing my research and Ifind things that really the story right.
And probably if Cleopatra had been doneas a dumb as a turn up,
I would have thrown it out,you know, and found found something else
(30:11):
or someone else to to write about. Yeah, because I do like,
um, there to be some youknow, I write fiction, but I
think it's really fun to throw surprisingfacts in there and then to separate fact
from fiction at the end. Yeah, I enjoy that. Is there anything
(30:33):
that you would just flat out likeif you, let's say you got a
commission from a you know, amysterious patron because we all need them,
Frankly, absolutely, is there anythingyou flat out would not write? Yeah?
I don't like um, So Ithink there's if something serves the story,
(30:56):
you know, I'll do some violence, I'll put children in danger,
but it's something like you know,hey, go write like a graphic torture
scene. No, there's no noneed for that, No, no point
that I can see to that.You know, when Cleopatra's Vendetta, the
(31:21):
commandant who's the head of the cult, he whips one of Angie's friends.
But that happens off camera, becausein my mind, my book is a
movie, right, So it happensoff screen, it happens off page.
You know, it's referenced, butI don't see the need to be in
(31:41):
her perspective while she's being whipped,for instance. So so yeah, so
there's things like that, or youknow, go write a rape scene.
M No, don't think, youknow, or go murder a small child,
you know, and you know,so no, there's things that,
Um, there's a lot of reallyhorrifying things that happen in the world,
(32:07):
and you know, I'm more interestedin writing about the human condition and people
overcoming things. And I think,you know, it's for me. It's
it's enough to allude to sex trafficking, you know, and maybe you know,
like in this case, Angie's kidnapped. Okay, we see that on
(32:30):
screen, so to speak. Youknow, she's bound, she fights the
bad guy, she's in a ship, but we don't see anybody actually being
raped, you know. So wedon't see anybody that's been sold to someone
that is actually, you know,being abused by the person that they're being
sold to. Right. So Itackle a really tough topic there, but
(32:55):
I try to keep it from beingsuper gritty, because I don't think that
serves the purpose, you know,books are. I write books to be
entertaining and to take people on anemotional journey, and so I sometimes have
to think very carefully about what Iput in the book and what I leave
(33:16):
out. But yes, there's absolutelythings that I wouldn't write about if people
gave me money to do it.What about you in what sense in terms
of who would I not have onthe show? Or yeah, like or
you know, if you woke uptomorrow and we're a novelist and you know
(33:38):
the there was you know, arich billionaire who thought you were incredibly talented
and wanted you to write about something. Where where would you draw the line
or would you It would depend onthe context of the writing and on if
it fit, Like, I wouldn'twrite gratuitous violence, but I would absolutely
(34:00):
write fairly graphic violence if the pointis for a reader to understand the depravity
to which we can assault another humanbeing and then from which we can rise.
So like, I could see aplace for it, but there'd have
to be a good reason. Now. The reason that I asked the way
(34:22):
that I did is because on mypodcast when I started out, I'd say
yes to anybody, like, youwant to come on my show? Cool?
And maybe six or eight months inapproximately, I had somebody come on
my show who was like a stepremoved from somebody with a really unsavory reputation
(34:44):
in the podcasting world. Okay,And I woke up the next morning after
releasing that episode to that person withthe unsavory reputation in my DM saying why
do you hate me? And I'mlike, really really like you know exactly
why, and you love it,frankly. And that was when I started
my no list. And so Ido have a no list and it's on
(35:07):
my phone. It's because I'm gearedto yes, and I'm geared to community,
and I'm geared to helping people whetherthey are well established or whether they're
just starting out and need a platform. And sometimes I forget that some people
are just assholes, you know whatI'm saying, Like they just it's part
of their DNA. And so Ihad to start a no list, and
(35:29):
if you are on my no list, the answer is absolutely not, because
sometimes I can't remember. Yeah,it's just look, I put you on
my no list, and so pastme said no, and present me has
to listen. That makes sense.I think boundaries are good, and they're
hard, like it's hard to maintainboundaries, and so you know, I
(35:53):
like asking authors about other things thatyou wouldn't write because sometimes they're pretty straightforward,
you know, no gratuitous violence orsex. Got it cool? Cool?
It makes sense. And I've hadpeople once in a while who'll be
like, well, I will neverwrite a children's book, and I'm like,
it doesn't have to rhyme, yeah, you know, or be cute,
(36:13):
like I think kids can handle grittytopics. It just has to be
handled delicately when you write it sothey can be. And so I'm always
fascinated about how are you going toanswer it? Because if you answer it
in a smart way, then I'mlike well, okay, fine, me
that way. But you when peopleanswer it in a you know, oh,
(36:34):
I just would never write a romance, and I'm like, okay,
so there's my gauntlet. Try it. Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.
I think I think we all havepreferences and things that we enjoy or
are drawn to. For me,it's really weird that I write thrillers.
You know, people that know me, they know that I like to meditate
(36:57):
and have a big heart and youknow, like you, I'm kind.
I believe that, you know,everybody should be neighborly. And and yet
my dreams, okay, so doctor, my dreams are filled with people attacking
me. Right, Um, I'mforever dealing with guns and knives in my
dreams or running or fighting or youknow, all this kind of stuff.
(37:22):
So so I'm you know, workingout some of that, I guess by
writing thrillers. And so it's it'sbizarre because it's not, um, you
know, I don't own a weapon. Uh you know, I've never been
in the military. Um, andyet I'm just really drawn to you know.
(37:43):
Like I was posting some stuff lastweek on social media because we went
to the beach, and I waslike, what do you see with this
beach video. You know, Isee an action scene and so you know
it's it's um, it's funny.So I think for me, you know,
I'm I'm writing to my strengths andmy interests. Um. But you
know, could I write a children'sbook? Sure, you know, have
(38:06):
I thought about it? Yeah,but it doesn't it doesn't hold my interest
long enough. In romance forget aboutit. You know. It's just you
know, my grandma used to readthose romance novels, the dime ones,
you know that I could read inabout twenty minutes and just yeah, yeah,
you know, I like something thatyou know, suction in and keeps
(38:27):
your attention and has some something tothink about in there, something to challenge
you. So I like to writewhat I like to read. Um.
But uh yeah, that's kind ofwhere I'm coming from on that. So
you said something I want to comeback to. You said you You when
you think about your book, yousee it as a movie. Whatever any
of you do. You have theactors picked out. Sometimes, So with
(38:52):
Maddie Marshall in the Van Op series, I could see Gal gadot Um.
You know, Gal has done WonderWoman and was in Red notice, and
so she's she looks like Maddie UM. Maddie's boyfriend lover UM love interest in
(39:12):
the series is a man who inmy mind looks a little bit like Bruce
Willis. You know, He's he'sshorter and stocky, has big, broad
shoulders, you know, that kindof thing UM for Cleipatris Vendetta. I
don't really have UM movie stars pickedout. I'm not a big I'm more
of a book person than I ama film person, so I don't necessarily
(39:37):
know who all the hot young actorsand actresses are. So I don't know.
So, you know, I kindof default to UM people from the
from the eighties when I was watchingmore movies, you know, the eighties
or the nineties. And so oftenwhat I'll do is I'll cruise the internet.
I'll go to Google images and I'llsay, you know, okay,
(39:58):
I am looking for a character who'sgot like ginger hair, you know,
and kind of pale skin. Andthen I'll just flip through the images and
then i'll grab a screenshot at thatand I'll put it in my outline so
that when I want to describe thatperson, you know, my character,
I'll go back and use that picture, you know, because my imagination tends
(40:23):
to work more like at an energeticlevel, if you will. Especially with
characters, you know, I thinkmore about who they are. I've studied
the inneagram quite a bit, andso I think about who they are from
a personality type. You know,are they bossy? Are they a perfectionist?
Are they a drama queen over thetop? Are they you know,
(40:45):
a sort of charming jokester. SoI look for their archetype, and so
I use those pictures if I don'talready have a movie star in mind,
and even if I do so,I've got like a picture of Algado stuck
in the outline for you know,the doomsday medallion for instance. But yeah,
(41:06):
those are some of the little shortcutsthat I use so that I remember
to describe them appropriately. Do youhope to see one of your books made
into a movie someday? And that'stied into would you be on the screenwriting
(41:27):
team? Yes, and yes Iwould love it if my books were made
into movies, and I do thinkI would like to consult. I wrote
a screenplay back in about two thousandand four, kind of as an experiment
because, as I mentioned, earlier, I was that kid who always wanted
to be a writer, but Iwasn't sure what medium I wanted to write
(41:51):
in. So for a while Iwrote poetry, just jotting some stuff down
my brain, tense to work inryan. But I was like, oh,
that's not very good, so Ijust kind of played with that,
and then I wrote a screenplay becauseI thought, oh, I'm not very
good at description, so let mefocus on the dialogue and the action,
and the director can just fill inall those blanks. And I enjoyed writing
(42:15):
that screenplay, but it was somethingthat I don't think was very markable,
so that you know, is sittingon a shelf. And then I discovered
writing novels, and I was reallyintimidated for a long time. There's a
lot of words in those novels,you know, eighty two one hundred thousand
words. And eventually I just said, you know, so I broke it
(42:40):
down into small pieces, right,So I discovered that I'm an outliner,
so I outline the whole thing,and I have for each chapter, I've
got kind of whose point of viewit's going to be and what happens in
that chapter, so that by thetime I get to actually sitting down to
write the chapter, or I'm justadding in description for what's happening in that
(43:04):
chapter, right and the dialogue.And I found that by doing it that
way, it's much easier to swallow. You know, I can sometimes take
a whole day just working on thatchapter. You know, I'm doing research.
I'm not writing fantasy or science fiction, so I'm not making up all
the details of a spaceship or acastle or something. You know. Often,
(43:28):
as we mentioned, my work isgrounded in something that or some place
that usually exists, or as acomposite of places that I've visited. So
I'm able to do some research anddescribe, you know, what that place
is like or what that person isdoing. And because I know my character
so well, I kind of knowwhat they would say and how they would
(43:49):
say it, and some of theactions that they would take. Right.
So, a perfectionist who walks bya piece of trash on the ground is
going to bend over and pick itup, right. Not all characters or
people will pick up a piece oftrash from the ground. So so that's
kind of some of the behind thescenes how I how I got over that
(44:13):
fear or intimidation of writing a wholenovel, and now I really enjoy the
art form, you know, Ilike building in all the red herrings and
the twists and find that it providesa really good outlet for um, you
know, some of those those themesand ideas and social commentary. Yeah,
(44:36):
it's a lot of fun. Thatlast point that of Auntie makes about getting
over the fear of writing a wholenovel and sort of finding ways to get
(44:57):
out of your own way. Iguess that's magical. That's really important,
you know, to me. Iguarantee if I had asked people, Hey,
I'm deaf, and I have alaundry list of medical issues and I'm
(45:19):
pretty isolated to my house. Idon't know the technology, and I don't
know promotion, and I don't knowthe details. There's just so many details
to podcasting. Can I start apodcast? If you put it like that,
the answer is absolutely not. Butit's I guess kind of like how
(45:40):
they say that aerodynamically a bumblebee shouldn'tbe able to fly, and yet it
doesn't know that, so it fliesanyway. That's what I did, is
Okay, I can't do these things. I'm going to do it anyway.
I'm going to find a way thatmy brain can handle to do the things.
So whatever I like. I reallylike the parallels and the variety of
(46:05):
topics we wandered through on this one. Avanti has a website van ops dot
net. You should go check itout. It's got the first six chapters
of The Last Power on there forfree. She does a lot of other
giveaways and that kind of thing,So go see. Go check it out.
(46:28):
It's it's well put together, andI'm telling you it's worth it.
She's got a newsletter all of thethings. Avanti, thank you for coming
to play. It was great toget to know you, and I hope
you'll come back sometime. Thank youguys for listening. I know it's been
(46:50):
a minute since the last episode.I'm okay. I'm just been trying to
catch up with some of the stuffin my actual life. When you're medically
laid out flat and then you startto get a little better, you look
around and you're like, oh,no, I've been ignoring a lot of
(47:10):
things for the past several months.So I'm trying to catch up in those
areas. But I'm doing better,I think, So that's a good start.
I hope you are all doing betterand I'll be back soon. You matter wo
Hey you, yes, you areyou looking for a new podcast that appeals
to your scientific curiosity but is alsoa little bit spooky. Show me how
I died in a past life?Well, look no further, because this
cat is where it's at. Hehad concerns about the ethics surrounding AI,
(00:23):
feeling they had achieved consciousness. CuriousCat Podcast examines the shadowy space where science
and the supernatural collide. Listen everyweek with your host Jennifer Hoats as she
and her guests explore what it meansto be a soul in a meat suit.
We were healing karma together. Theywere all kind of predestined to resolve
(00:46):
something. Listen on all your favoritestreaming apps and continue the conversation on Twitter
at Curious Cat pod CEA, orfind Jennifer and all her links at Jennifer
L. Hopes spelled htes dot com. This podcast involves topics such as violence,
(01:11):
sex, and mental illness. Ifthis might disturb you or those around
you, please reconsider it's okay.Privacy and confidentiality have been protected, with
personal information removed when possible. Ifyou ever feel unsafe or suicidal, please
call your local crisis center emergency servicesor national hotline. In the US,
(01:34):
the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is eightdouble zero two seven three eight to double
five. You matter, Hey,this is Kate. Were you one of
those kids who always wanted to rate? A lot of us were there is
(01:59):
something that we just revered about thewritten word or about bookstores or libraries.
Maybe it was just me and allmy friends, but I don't think so.
I think a lot of you wholisten to the show fall into that
category as well. That there's justthis reverence for the written word. And
(02:21):
as I've discovered myself, having thatreverence isn't enough to make you able to
do it. Like I've tried,and maybe I'll try again, but I'm
better with the spoken word. Myguest today has released several novels, so
(02:43):
she has found the magic that ittakes to either physically or digitally put pen
to paper and create fully fleshed outstories. Her name is Avanti Centre and
her most recent book is called Cleopatra'sVendetta. As you might expect when you
(03:07):
get two admitted nerds like we justwere, with a lot of varied interests,
this starts talking about her books andthen goes everywhere else. So we
have a bit of time travel,we have a bunch about forensic psychology,
(03:28):
and we'll talk about Cleopatra. Areyou sure you really want to know?
This is ignorance was bliss? Thisis a Vauntie sentree. I'm a I'm
(04:12):
an author. I write thrillers.They're generally full of intrigue, history,
science and mystery. I wrote theVan Ops thriller series. There's three books
in that series, The Lost Power, Solstice, Shadows, and the Dunes
Named Medallion. Just a couple ofmonths ago, Cleopatra's Vendetta was released and
it's a bit of a spinoff fromthe Van Ops series. So readers who
(04:35):
have enjoyed Maddie Baron will will beinterested to see some of the spinoff characters
that make an appearance in Cleopatra's Vendetta. But it's a it's a standalone as
as they all are. And anyway, I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Thank you for having me on yourshow, thank you for coming to play.
(04:56):
And I'm not going to pretend tohave any degree of gravitas or grown
up in about this. Is thatthis is take two for us because I
have children and so as far asanyone out there knows they're still alive.
That's fine. So have you,as an adult always been an author or
(05:18):
have you spent some of your adultlife doing anything else. Spent quite a
bit of time in my adult lifedoing other things. I was one of
those kids that wanted to be anauthor when I grew up, but life
gotten the way quite a bit,and I didn't end up seriously pursuing it
until I was almost fifty, andthat was about ten years ago. So
(05:40):
for the last ten years, I'vebeen pursuing it quite steadily and have produced
the four books that I mentioned earlier, and have another about half done.
And I'm just really pleased to havegarnered, you know, a little bit
of critical acclaim. My books havewon ten different awards, and more importantly
(06:00):
to me, people who read themseem to really respond emotionally, and so
that that makes my little heart,you know, happy, grows three sizes.
Yeah, it's like the Grinch,you know, my heart just has
grown multiple sizes as a result ofmy writing career. And it's it's just
so much fun. I really getinto doing the research. Each of my
(06:25):
books generally has some sort of historicalfigure or something that has to do with
history. I mentioned, you know, and kind of blurbed it out,
you know, intrigue, history,science, and mystery. But often it
revolves around some sort of historical character. So in the case of the book
that we're talking about today, Cleopatrais kind of front and center, and
(06:46):
boy, she was a lot offun to research. I think that our
modern culture has made her out tobe, you know, just sort of
this beautiful seductress who was all aboutMark Anthony and Julius Caesar, and she's
so much more than that. Haveyou ever had any interest in Cleopatra to
an extent? Yeah, I understandthat. I mean, she was effectively
(07:08):
a female political leader when such athing didn't exist, right, and she
decided, yeah, okay, that'slet me tell you where you can put
your expectations. I'm going to dowhat I have to do. And so
because I think certainly my generation grewup and maybe the most a lot of
us knew about Cleopatra was the songwalk Like an Egyptian by the Bengals.
(07:32):
Yeah, that one, which isnot perhaps historically accurate perhaps. So what
did you tell me some things thatyou learned? Yeah? Oh, oh
my gosh. So For one thing, she spoke like nine languages, including
Troglodyte, which I was surprised tolearn as actually a language Ethiopian, I
(07:57):
think, if I'm not mistaken,she was the first Egyptian ruler since the
time of Alexander who spoke Egyptian.For you, history buffs out there.
When Alexander died, some of hisgenerals took over Egypt, the Ptolemy's and
so she was a couple hundred yearslater from that line, and they were
(08:18):
all Macedonian, so she wasn't actuallyEgyptian. She was Macedonian, but she
bothered to take the time to learnGreek, which I thought was pretty cool.
She had coins minted in her image. You know, hey, I'm
the beautiful Cleopatra. Look at meon a coin, which was clever because
in a time without social media orTV, most of her subjects had no
(08:41):
idea who she was or what shelooked like. So I thought that was
pretty clever. Her city, Alexandria, was kind of like the New York
of its time. It was amelting pot, but it was also technologically
advanced. They had things like treadmilland coin operated vending machines. Okay,
(09:03):
and y'all, this is like acouple hundred years before Christ, so several
hundred you know years back then,so thousands of years you know, from
us at this point, right,So pretty cool, the advanced, and
they had just, you know,the main drag in Alexandria. I'm kind
(09:24):
of an architecture geek. It waswide enough that nine chariots could go buy
abreast, you know. So youthink about our little main streets and you
know, you can fit one carboth ways and maybe somebody can park on
each type. No nine chariots abreast, So this huge, you know,
main drag. She had a numberof temples built, and she may not
(09:48):
have died from an ASP bite.Historians think that she was probably far too
clever for that. The the asppoison was probably pretty comfortable and made people
like do spasms and things. SoI used that in the story. A
lot of this stuff that I learnedwhile doing research, I was able to
(10:09):
pull into the story. Things likeshe was a jokester. She and Mark
Anthony would dress up in costume,not just on Halloween, but just on
random nights and they would trump aroundand do like a bar crawl in Alexandria,
dressed in costume. You know,hey, we're just you know,
(10:30):
mom and pop cruising around having abeer at the end of the day.
So she would you be able tofigure out what her constituents were thinking in
disguise. So it's not surprising thatwhen she met Julius Caesar, you know,
she rolled herself up in some sortof sack. But yeah, she
was incredibly smart and charming and wasone of the wealthiest people in the world
(10:54):
at the time. That's why Romewas courting her because Egypt had so much
money, and so between the twoleaders of Rome who were trying to use
that, you know, her coffers, she wielded a lot of power.
So she's probably one of the mostpowerful women in the last several thousand years.
(11:16):
Fascinating all the way around, andnot just by Bengal standards. Yeah,
I follow, and I mean it'show do you choose the historical figures
it do you feel a personal connectionor is it that you wish you felt
a personal connection. It's more aboutwhat fits the story and the theme of
(11:37):
the story, right, So Igenerally have a theme that's kind of one
of the first things that I pick, and it's for me it's like the
frame of a house, but alsothe design of a house. Right,
So with a house, you canhave a ranch, a farmhouse, McMansion,
(11:58):
a cape cod Spanish. Right,You've got all these different types of
homes, Victorian craftsmen, you know, the list goes on. Well,
you're not going to if you're asmart architect, you're not going to take
elements from all of those different stylesand try to glom them together. You're
(12:20):
going to stick with you know,kind of people's expectations. Right, I'm
buying a suburban ranch home or I'mbuying an old Victorian. So the same
thing with how I work the themesof my books. I know, I
kind of picked the theme and forCleopators Vendetta, it was it was just
perfect because we've got some themes inthere around propaganda and truth is one of
(12:46):
the big themes. And one that'sanother thing that I learned while I was
doing all that research is that probablyone of the main reasons why she and
Mark Anthony lost that war is becauseOctavian, who was the nephew of Julius
Caesar, waged a propaganda campaign againstCleopatra and Mark Anthony, calling Cleopatra a
(13:13):
whore, a harlot, you know, daughter of Hades, all this kind
of stuff. And he made statuesof she and Mark Anthony Bleed. I'm
not sure how he did that,but and he would topple their statues,
put up leaflets. So for thoseof us who think that, you know,
(13:35):
the crap that we see on socialmedia is brand new. Propaganda has
been around. It was old evenin her time. I hate to tell
you guys, but it's been aroundfor a really long time. And so
that's one of the themes in thenovel is, you know, the history
of propaganda and how it plays outtoday. We've got some bad guys who
are using deep fake technology, whichis, you know, the modern version
(14:00):
of propaganda. So she fit,you know. And there's another theme about,
you know, women's empowerment. Sowho better than Cleopatra to fit that
theme. So that's kind of howI pick some of the historical elements of
my novels. It's it's a it'sa tough one because there are times,
(14:20):
well let me let me back upand ask first, are your novels set
in current day or are they setin the past. There's generally a prologue
in the past. So in Cleopatra'sVendetta, our first the prologue, so
our first exposure into the story isCleopatra is waiting for her spy to bring
(14:43):
her the poison, and so she'spacing in a balcony, you know,
wondering where he is and if hewas able to get the poison and if
he was able to fulfill another missionthat she had set for him. So
we do have one scene in thepast, and then the rest of the
novel is in present time. Andthat method, although not utilized in the
(15:09):
book that I'm currently writing, eachof the van Ops novels also has a
prologue that's told wait, maybe not, maybe not Solstal Shadows. Actually I
give that prologue away to people whosign up for my newsletter. But The
Lost Power definitely has an interesting prologuethat starts when the current At that time,
(15:37):
the King of Spain is fighting themoors to get Alexander the Great's mysterious
Egyptian weapon. So, to answeryour question, most of my work takes
place in current time. And thereason I ask, and I'm not going
to name drop, I would neverwell, I probably would. It depends
on what kind of them would I'min but I'm not going to now name
drop a different author on your episode. But I recently read a book that
(16:00):
is set in it's fuzzy but basicallycurrent day, okay, and the author
it was it was it was publishedand I want to say twenty seventeen something
like approximately, and the author talksabout a global epidemic that turns into pandemic
(16:22):
right whoops? You know? AndI always wondered, like I I have
not I don't think I have thepoll to have that person on. Even
if I did, I don't knowthat I would have like a honeius to
ask like, did you did youjust hide under a rock for all of
twenty twenty and apologize to everybody yousaw, like I swear I had nothing
to do with this or what youknow what I mean? Or did you
(16:47):
use it as pr to say,look, I'm predicting the future. Right,
that'd be kind of terrifying in itsown way. But like I said,
do you have is that a fearfor you? Or is that I
hope for you that it turns outyou accidentally on purpose predict or identify something
that maybe people weren't prepared for.Oh, that's a great question. So
(17:07):
let's dive a little bit into thethird Van Ops novel called The Doom's Name
Medallion and the historical figure and thatone is Nostradamus, And the whole theme
in that book is about can yousee the future? How far would people
go to the future to see thefuture. And in that book, we've
got a sixteen year old girl whopredicts that China invades an outlying island in
(17:30):
Taiwan. Right, so I reallyhope that that does not happen. So
you know, that's sort of theshort answer to your question. But the
whole topic of being able to seeand tell the future is so fascinating to
me that I wrote a whole bookabout it. The Maddie is the heroine
(17:51):
of the van Ops series and shehas had a couple of situations where she's
had dreams that come true, andone of those was her mother's passing and
her brother Will, who's her twin, they fight all the time, and
he wants her to be able toharness that power, you know, to
be able to see the future oncommand. She's like, oh, Will,
(18:15):
that's just not how it works atall. But yeah, that book
was a lot of fun Nostre Damas. There was a Business Insider article about
the number of things that many peoplebelieve he really did predict, like the
Great Fire of London, for instance, or one of the kings and queens,
(18:37):
the ones that were beheaded. Idon't know if that was Marie,
Antoinette and Louis. Yeah, yeah, thank you, so yeah, pretty
fascinating. Have you ever known anybodythat could see the future? Okay,
so here's the thing. No,but I can make you believe I can
(18:59):
that you can. Okay, makeme make me believe you can. You
have to have a deep understanding ofthe person and of how they see the
world, and of what's important tothem and what they are likely to notice,
which means therefore what they are notlikely to notice. And if you
bring the things that they are nottypically likely to notice into their conscious thought
(19:22):
in a way that fits with theirworldview, and you have a reasonable understanding
of how the world itself rolls,suddenly things happen that feel like you're predicting
the future. And if you speakjust vaguely enough, they lean in,
they buy in. That's you know. So tarot cards, for instance,
(19:45):
if I were to do a tarotspread, which I live in Salem,
Massachusetts, and so I mean it'spart of the like when you buy a
house, they have you sign athousand documents and you get your own tarottack
could just you know, but Ifelt like, you know, there are
a lot of people in Salem whotruly believe in Wicca or their pagan roots
(20:07):
or whatever, and so I feltlike, you know, we're able to
speak intelligently with my literal neighbors orto show respect. I'm going to learn
tarot and so I did. Andthe thing about tara is it's all worded
just vaguely enough that two people livingin like complete opposite lives, with complete
(20:30):
opposite mindsets can walk away going,WHOA, that's creepy. How did you
know? And the answer is Isaid the same words to both people,
but you use a different inflection.You speak to them and include aspects of
their past or ways that you knowthat they see the world and it creates.
(20:52):
And also there's just a simple likeI understand, Like in my case,
I'm not a sociologist, but Iunderstand a fair degree of sociology.
I am a psychologist. I understandhow individuals work within the larger picture,
and so I can say like,yeah, I didn't. Don't you remember
I said that was pretty likely ithappened. And here we are, and
(21:15):
whether we're talking on the micro levelor the macro level, like so,
as far as the pandemic is concerned, I didn't predict it, but a
lot of people did. And that'sjust just playing the odds right, right,
And as long as you're careful notto get too detailed and too specific,
you could be like, look,see nailed it. Yeah exactly.
(21:37):
You don't say there's going to bea great fire of London in nineteen oh
two, you know, you sayin the city in which there's a bridge
there will be a great fire.There are forensic psychologists and another assessment professionals
who will try and cut corners inthat exact way, and we're trained don't
(21:59):
do that. We're to tell youhow to do it so that you are
conscious of it and so that youdon't do it, because you don't want
to be sitting on the stand givingtestimony and having them ask well how did
you know this, and have yousay, well, I just played the
odds, your honor, because thatis exactly how you get yourself kicked out
of the trial, right, Yeah, yeah, So tell me a little
(22:19):
bit more about forensic psychology. Youknow, I read your bio and was
pretty pretty curious. I've never meta forensic psychologist before, So tell me
a little bit about that. I'mgiven a question, is this person competent
to stand trial? Or what istheir diagnosis? Or where would they most
(22:40):
safely for themselves and others be housedafter conviction? That kind of thing,
and I would use a mix ofinterview and structured tests, the raw shok,
the MNPI, that kind of thing, and you come up with an
answer. Yeah. And I meanwhen it comes to like competency to stand
trial, it's really vious when somebody'snot. That's why you don't hear a
(23:02):
lot of not guilty by reason ofinsanity cases because those wash out before they
ever walk into the courtroom. Sothat was what So my job was doing
a lot of one on one timewith this person to figure out here's the
quest and and that's how I wouldapproach it with the persons. Here's the
question I've been told to answer.You know, when I think of forensic
(23:23):
psychology, I think, you know, like delving into the criminal mind,
and you know, what is drivingpeople to be criminals? Right? Or
to join a cult like in Cleopatra'sVendetta. You know what drives people to
do bad things? Are there anyforensic psychologists that do that? You know?
(23:45):
And maybe your jobs were just notthere or is that not part of
the Ballywick of the forensic psychologists.A good forensic psychologist will coach everything in
terms of opinion and in terms ofthe individual. So not everybody will join
a cult for the same reason.A lot of the reasons that we commit
crimes are incredibly mundane. We wantmoney, we want drugs, we want
(24:08):
sex, and so it doesn't it'sit's less, it's a lot less exotic.
There's also a lot by the wayto do the actual job, there's
a lot of waiting. If anybody'sever been to court, they know that.
You just you just it's it's it'slike it's like being on a plane
flight. There's a couple of minutesat the beginning of a couple of minutes
(24:30):
at the end, and sometimes inthe middle where there's a lot of activity,
and otherwise you're just sitting. You'rejust waiting. That's it, and
that's that's really what my job waswas a lot of just hanging out and
waiting, and so, like,some people join a cult because they want
a sense of belonging. Some peoplejoin a cult because they want protection of
other members around them, or they'relonely, or they're looking for meaning in
(24:55):
the world, and you know,and all of those are very different people.
Yeah, and so there's no suchthing as an answer to that.
And whenever I hear people start totalk about, well, this is why
people join cults, and I'm like, shutting, yeah, you know why
again the number of people what makesme even a little crazy. Like I
name my aneurisms, you know,at times just for fun, and one
(25:17):
of them is whenever I hear somebodysay, well, I would never and
I'm like, oh god, youknow, Like a common one is the
I would never confess to something Ididn't do. And that's this anneurism over
here, because I'm like, youknow what, if I get you,
you give me thirty six hours,and I can make you confess that you've
killed someone who's still walking and talkingout in the world. Because if you
(25:38):
get tired enough and you're hungry andyou're scared, and you believe that if
you just say the words I wantto hear. And you're probably on the
lower end of the IQ spectrum,and you're frightened right now of the potential
results. And I haven't let yousmoke. I haven't let you had captine.
(26:00):
I haven't let you talk to yourmom, whatever the case is,
or use the bathroom. You'll sayanything to me. Yeah, I've had
people come up on my show beforewho you know, before I hit record,
I asked, you want to beanonymous, and I've had people this
is adorable, by the way,tell me, oh, I could never
be anonymous because everybody knows my voice. And I'm like, you idiot,
(26:23):
Like, I don't typically say itout loud unless I know them real well.
But the answer is, if Icould be talking to your mother,
and if I tell you to expectto hear my neighbor speaking, you'll be
like, Wow, your neighbor soundsjust like my mom. Crazy. Huh,
(26:44):
Hell, you know what I mean. And so so there's a lot
of like we hear what we expectto hear. And there's electronic filters too
that you could apply. Yeah,but I would never I would rather play
head games than technology games. Youknow. I'm built that way. But
so you know, it's that thatfeeling of could I get you to falsely
confess absolutely? And that's a madeup number, but a whole bunch of
(27:11):
the false confessions that are out therethey reach. We can't. As soon
as they get that bathroom break,as soon as they get that nap,
as soon as they get that drink, whatever it is that they're hoping for,
they're like, wait, what didI just say? I didn't mean
that exactly. I only meant itthen, I don't mean it now.
So yeah, it makes me alittle bit crazy with people like I would
(27:33):
never kill somebody, and I'm like, you know what, in the right
circumstances, all of us would.I just have to find your circumstances self
defense for instance, you know,defense of another if you're high enough,
defense of someone that you love exactly, or just defense on a child,
random stranger, fear the accident,you know, bar fights. Like,
(27:56):
there's lots of ways that it endsup being technically assault or technically murder because
someone is hurt or someone is dead. That's pretty technical. But that yeah,
you know, you sitting here talkingto me, you're probably not gonna
Yeah, I played, I playwith that in The Lost Power. The
(28:18):
theme of that one is non violence. And Maddie starts out she's an akido
expert, and I don't know ifyou know, but akido is all about
non violence, right. So shestarts out, you know, swearing on
a stack of Bibles that she wouldnever you know, hurt a fly,
much less, you know, killsomebody. And at the end of the
book, those things are really challenged. So it's it's an interesting, Uh,
(28:41):
it's interesting to me that you knowyou also like those types of challenges.
I think they make fiction good.But it also makes for a great
conversation. And you know, you'reyou're a student of life, right,
I mean, that's largely what whatpsychology isn't It's also largely what I think
being a decent human being is isstudying other people and paying attention to other
(29:03):
people and seeing other perspectives. Andthat was the thing that I wanted to
ask. Is there things in thecourse of your research? Is a sort
of a twofold question of or havebeen there have been things in your research
that have gone not just been asurprise to you, but have gone against
what you had previously believed. Andwhen you encounter that do you use it
(29:27):
anyway or no? Trying to thinkif there would be an example like that.
I mean, what if Cleopatra wasactually dumb as a turn up and
just had really good advisors, youknow, right then I probably wouldn't have
used it, you know. Frankly, one of the things I like to
(29:48):
do at the end is kind ofdo a fact from fiction kind of thing.
And I one of the things thatjust gives me a huge kick is
when I'm doing my research and Ifind things that really the story right.
And probably if Cleopatra had been doneas a dumb as a turn up,
I would have thrown it out,you know, and found found something else
(30:11):
or someone else to to write about. Yeah, because I do like,
um, there to be some youknow, I write fiction, but I
think it's really fun to throw surprisingfacts in there and then to separate fact
from fiction at the end. Yeah, I enjoy that. Is there anything
(30:33):
that you would just flat out likeif you, let's say you got a
commission from a you know, amysterious patron because we all need them,
Frankly, absolutely, is there anythingyou flat out would not write? Yeah?
I don't like um, So Ithink there's if something serves the story,
(30:56):
you know, I'll do some violence, I'll put children in danger,
but it's something like you know,hey, go write like a graphic torture
scene. No, there's no noneed for that, No, no point
that I can see to that.You know, when Cleopatra's Vendetta, the
(31:21):
commandant who's the head of the cult, he whips one of Angie's friends.
But that happens off camera, becausein my mind, my book is a
movie, right, So it happensoff screen, it happens off page.
You know, it's referenced, butI don't see the need to be in
(31:41):
her perspective while she's being whipped,for instance. So so yeah, so
there's things like that, or youknow, go write a rape scene.
M No, don't think, youknow, or go murder a small child,
you know, and you know,so no, there's things that,
Um, there's a lot of reallyhorrifying things that happen in the world,
(32:07):
and you know, I'm more interestedin writing about the human condition and people
overcoming things. And I think,you know, it's for me. It's
it's enough to allude to sex trafficking, you know, and maybe you know,
like in this case, Angie's kidnapped. Okay, we see that on
(32:30):
screen, so to speak. Youknow, she's bound, she fights the
bad guy, she's in a ship, but we don't see anybody actually being
raped, you know. So wedon't see anybody that's been sold to someone
that is actually, you know,being abused by the person that they're being
sold to. Right. So Itackle a really tough topic there, but
(32:55):
I try to keep it from beingsuper gritty, because I don't think that
serves the purpose, you know,books are. I write books to be
entertaining and to take people on anemotional journey, and so I sometimes have
to think very carefully about what Iput in the book and what I leave
(33:16):
out. But yes, there's absolutelythings that I wouldn't write about if people
gave me money to do it.What about you in what sense in terms
of who would I not have onthe show? Or yeah, like or
you know, if you woke uptomorrow and we're a novelist and you know
(33:38):
the there was you know, arich billionaire who thought you were incredibly talented
and wanted you to write about something. Where where would you draw the line
or would you It would depend onthe context of the writing and on if
it fit, Like, I wouldn'twrite gratuitous violence, but I would absolutely
(34:00):
write fairly graphic violence if the pointis for a reader to understand the depravity
to which we can assault another humanbeing and then from which we can rise.
So like, I could see aplace for it, but there'd have
to be a good reason. Now. The reason that I asked the way
(34:22):
that I did is because on mypodcast when I started out, I'd say
yes to anybody, like, youwant to come on my show? Cool?
And maybe six or eight months inapproximately, I had somebody come on
my show who was like a stepremoved from somebody with a really unsavory reputation
(34:44):
in the podcasting world. Okay,And I woke up the next morning after
releasing that episode to that person withthe unsavory reputation in my DM saying why
do you hate me? And I'mlike, really really like you know exactly
why, and you love it,frankly. And that was when I started
my no list. And so Ido have a no list and it's on
(35:07):
my phone. It's because I'm gearedto yes, and I'm geared to community,
and I'm geared to helping people whetherthey are well established or whether they're
just starting out and need a platform. And sometimes I forget that some people
are just assholes, you know whatI'm saying, Like they just it's part
of their DNA. And so Ihad to start a no list, and
(35:29):
if you are on my no list, the answer is absolutely not, because
sometimes I can't remember. Yeah,it's just look, I put you on
my no list, and so pastme said no, and present me has
to listen. That makes sense.I think boundaries are good, and they're
hard, like it's hard to maintainboundaries, and so you know, I
(35:53):
like asking authors about other things thatyou wouldn't write because sometimes they're pretty straightforward,
you know, no gratuitous violence orsex. Got it cool? Cool?
It makes sense. And I've hadpeople once in a while who'll be
like, well, I will neverwrite a children's book, and I'm like,
it doesn't have to rhyme, yeah, you know, or be cute,
(36:13):
like I think kids can handle grittytopics. It just has to be
handled delicately when you write it sothey can be. And so I'm always
fascinated about how are you going toanswer it? Because if you answer it
in a smart way, then I'mlike well, okay, fine, me
that way. But you when peopleanswer it in a you know, oh,
(36:34):
I just would never write a romance, and I'm like, okay,
so there's my gauntlet. Try it. Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.
I think I think we all havepreferences and things that we enjoy or
are drawn to. For me,it's really weird that I write thrillers.
You know, people that know me, they know that I like to meditate
(36:57):
and have a big heart and youknow, like you, I'm kind.
I believe that, you know,everybody should be neighborly. And and yet
my dreams, okay, so doctor, my dreams are filled with people attacking
me. Right, Um, I'mforever dealing with guns and knives in my
dreams or running or fighting or youknow, all this kind of stuff.
(37:22):
So so I'm you know, workingout some of that, I guess by
writing thrillers. And so it's it'sbizarre because it's not, um, you
know, I don't own a weapon. Uh you know, I've never been
in the military. Um, andyet I'm just really drawn to you know.
(37:43):
Like I was posting some stuff lastweek on social media because we went
to the beach, and I waslike, what do you see with this
beach video. You know, Isee an action scene and so you know
it's it's um, it's funny.So I think for me, you know,
I'm I'm writing to my strengths andmy interests. Um. But you
know, could I write a children'sbook? Sure, you know, have
(38:06):
I thought about it? Yeah,but it doesn't it doesn't hold my interest
long enough. In romance forget aboutit. You know. It's just you
know, my grandma used to readthose romance novels, the dime ones,
you know that I could read inabout twenty minutes and just yeah, yeah,
you know, I like something thatyou know, suction in and keeps
(38:27):
your attention and has some something tothink about in there, something to challenge
you. So I like to writewhat I like to read. Um.
But uh yeah, that's kind ofwhere I'm coming from on that. So
you said something I want to comeback to. You said you You when
you think about your book, yousee it as a movie. Whatever any
of you do. You have theactors picked out. Sometimes, So with
(38:52):
Maddie Marshall in the Van Op series, I could see Gal gadot Um.
You know, Gal has done WonderWoman and was in Red notice, and
so she's she looks like Maddie UM. Maddie's boyfriend lover UM love interest in
(39:12):
the series is a man who inmy mind looks a little bit like Bruce
Willis. You know, He's he'sshorter and stocky, has big, broad
shoulders, you know, that kindof thing UM for Cleipatris Vendetta. I
don't really have UM movie stars pickedout. I'm not a big I'm more
of a book person than I ama film person, so I don't necessarily
(39:37):
know who all the hot young actorsand actresses are. So I don't know.
So, you know, I kindof default to UM people from the
from the eighties when I was watchingmore movies, you know, the eighties
or the nineties. And so oftenwhat I'll do is I'll cruise the internet.
I'll go to Google images and I'llsay, you know, okay,
(39:58):
I am looking for a character who'sgot like ginger hair, you know,
and kind of pale skin. Andthen I'll just flip through the images and
then i'll grab a screenshot at thatand I'll put it in my outline so
that when I want to describe thatperson, you know, my character,
I'll go back and use that picture, you know, because my imagination tends
(40:23):
to work more like at an energeticlevel, if you will. Especially with
characters, you know, I thinkmore about who they are. I've studied
the inneagram quite a bit, andso I think about who they are from
a personality type. You know,are they bossy? Are they a perfectionist?
Are they a drama queen over thetop? Are they you know,
(40:45):
a sort of charming jokester. SoI look for their archetype, and so
I use those pictures if I don'talready have a movie star in mind,
and even if I do so,I've got like a picture of Algado stuck
in the outline for you know,the doomsday medallion for instance. But yeah,
(41:06):
those are some of the little shortcutsthat I use so that I remember
to describe them appropriately. Do youhope to see one of your books made
into a movie someday? And that'stied into would you be on the screenwriting
(41:27):
team? Yes, and yes Iwould love it if my books were made
into movies, and I do thinkI would like to consult. I wrote
a screenplay back in about two thousandand four, kind of as an experiment
because, as I mentioned, earlier, I was that kid who always wanted
to be a writer, but Iwasn't sure what medium I wanted to write
(41:51):
in. So for a while Iwrote poetry, just jotting some stuff down
my brain, tense to work inryan. But I was like, oh,
that's not very good, so Ijust kind of played with that,
and then I wrote a screenplay becauseI thought, oh, I'm not very
good at description, so let mefocus on the dialogue and the action,
and the director can just fill inall those blanks. And I enjoyed writing
(42:15):
that screenplay, but it was somethingthat I don't think was very markable,
so that you know, is sittingon a shelf. And then I discovered
writing novels, and I was reallyintimidated for a long time. There's a
lot of words in those novels,you know, eighty two one hundred thousand
words. And eventually I just said, you know, so I broke it
(42:40):
down into small pieces, right,So I discovered that I'm an outliner,
so I outline the whole thing,and I have for each chapter, I've
got kind of whose point of viewit's going to be and what happens in
that chapter, so that by thetime I get to actually sitting down to
write the chapter, or I'm justadding in description for what's happening in that
(43:04):
chapter, right and the dialogue.And I found that by doing it that
way, it's much easier to swallow. You know, I can sometimes take
a whole day just working on thatchapter. You know, I'm doing research.
I'm not writing fantasy or science fiction, so I'm not making up all
the details of a spaceship or acastle or something. You know. Often,
(43:28):
as we mentioned, my work isgrounded in something that or some place
that usually exists, or as acomposite of places that I've visited. So
I'm able to do some research anddescribe, you know, what that place
is like or what that person isdoing. And because I know my character
so well, I kind of knowwhat they would say and how they would
(43:49):
say it, and some of theactions that they would take. Right.
So, a perfectionist who walks bya piece of trash on the ground is
going to bend over and pick itup, right. Not all characters or
people will pick up a piece oftrash from the ground. So so that's
kind of some of the behind thescenes how I how I got over that
(44:13):
fear or intimidation of writing a wholenovel, and now I really enjoy the
art form, you know, Ilike building in all the red herrings and
the twists and find that it providesa really good outlet for um, you
know, some of those those themesand ideas and social commentary. Yeah,
(44:36):
it's a lot of fun. Thatlast point that of Auntie makes about getting
over the fear of writing a wholenovel and sort of finding ways to get
(44:57):
out of your own way. Iguess that's magical. That's really important,
you know, to me. Iguarantee if I had asked people, Hey,
I'm deaf, and I have alaundry list of medical issues and I'm
(45:19):
pretty isolated to my house. Idon't know the technology, and I don't
know promotion, and I don't knowthe details. There's just so many details
to podcasting. Can I start apodcast? If you put it like that,
the answer is absolutely not. Butit's I guess kind of like how
(45:40):
they say that aerodynamically a bumblebee shouldn'tbe able to fly, and yet it
doesn't know that, so it fliesanyway. That's what I did, is
Okay, I can't do these things. I'm going to do it anyway.
I'm going to find a way thatmy brain can handle to do the things.
So whatever I like. I reallylike the parallels and the variety of
(46:05):
topics we wandered through on this one. Avanti has a website van ops dot
net. You should go check itout. It's got the first six chapters
of The Last Power on there forfree. She does a lot of other
giveaways and that kind of thing,So go see. Go check it out.
(46:28):
It's it's well put together, andI'm telling you it's worth it.
She's got a newsletter all of thethings. Avanti, thank you for coming
to play. It was great toget to know you, and I hope
you'll come back sometime. Thank youguys for listening. I know it's been
(46:50):
a minute since the last episode.I'm okay. I'm just been trying to
catch up with some of the stuffin my actual life. When you're medically
laid out flat and then you startto get a little better, you look
around and you're like, oh,no, I've been ignoring a lot of
(47:10):
things for the past several months.So I'm trying to catch up in those
areas. But I'm doing better,I think, So that's a good start.
I hope you are all doing betterand I'll be back soon. You matter wo
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