July 3, 2023 • 63 mins
While you're busy with picnics or fireworks or side-eyeing Americans, stop and think: does the 4th of July actually hold historical significance? And if it doesn't, what else are we getting wrong?
Guest: David Fleming, author of Who's Your Founding Father?
....................
Promo: Beyond 6 Seconds
Disclaimer: Sarah Rhea Werner
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
....................
Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Sponsor: Horrific Hope Film Festival 2024 (code bliss24 for 15% off submission)
Guest: David Fleming, author of Who's Your Founding Father?
....................
Promo: Beyond 6 Seconds
Disclaimer: Sarah Rhea Werner
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
....................
Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Sponsor: Horrific Hope Film Festival 2024 (code bliss24 for 15% off submission)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
First impressions can take only six secondsto make. But if you're neurodivergent moost
quick judgments about you can be misleading. Because of most people's ignorance around learning
disabilities, people think it means you'reintellectually incapable. I'm not rainmare. Everyone
TOASI person is a rainmare. Ithought I was talking to people who understood
(00:21):
dislike say an ADHD, but theydid not. They freaked out, and
We're like, well, if you'vegot turest, if it's going to be
a problem, then we can justfire you and get someone else. I'm
Carol and Keel and I host Beyondsix Seconds, a podcast where neurodivergent people
share their lives and advocacy. Oneof my goals is making autism not something
(00:42):
that's scary. I really want tohelp people understand this broxy a little bit
better. Get the real life ofthreat syndrome out there. Stop thinking we
or nothing but a joke. Let'sshatter misconceptions and celebrate neurodiversity together. Listen
at Beyond six seconds dot net orwherever you get your podcast. This podcast
(01:02):
involves topics such as violence, sex, and mental illness. If this might
disturb you or those around you,please reconsider it's okay. Privacy and confidentiality
have been protected, with personal informationremoved when possible. If you ever feel
unsafe or suicidal, please call yourlocal crisis center, emergency services, or
(01:26):
national hotline. In the United States, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is one
eight hundred two seven three eight twofive five You matter, Hey, this
(01:47):
is Kate as of time of recordingin day of release. This is July
third, twenty twenty three. Soare you getting along for the fourth?
Do you have plans? Have youalready celebrated the fourth? Are you one
of those people and I use theword people lightly there who thinks they should
(02:15):
stand in the middle of the streetand set off fireworks just for frenzies in
midnight. Don't don't do that.By the way, anyway, if you
are an American or have American friends, you're probably aware of the fourth of
(02:36):
July the birth of independence and timeto get patriotic and let's celebrate in Merca
and so on. Also, it'sone of the holidays where you can reliably
find cotton candy out in public,which is really important to me. But
(03:00):
did you know that it's not actuallythe fourth of July, that we're celebrating
on the wrong date entirely, andthat the US is effectively rewriting history.
Shocker right. My guest today isnamed David Fleming, and he assumed once
(03:23):
upon a time that July fourth,seventeen seventy six had some historic meaning,
and it still does to an extent, and it always will because it has
become cannon. But actually we're celebratingsix weeks late. He learned this accidentally
(03:46):
in the way that the best discoveriesare made, and went down the rabbit
hole. He wrote a book aboutit, and we talk about it.
We also go into some political stuff, but and gentially, the reality is
that what we talk about is theimportance of accuracy and knowing what really happened
(04:15):
before we decide how to spin it. Are you sure you really want to
know? This is ignorance? Wasbliss? Hi? Everybody? My name
(04:58):
is David Fleming. I'm an authorof three books, and I've been a
senior writer at ESPN for the lasttwenty three years or so. Before that,
I was a writer at Sports Illustrated, and I would say the niche
that I've carved out over the lastthree decades as a long form magazine writer,
(05:18):
magazine style writer, now that themagazine has gone, is sort of
the strange, obscure, craziest storiesthat are barely and tangentially only tangentially related
to sports. And I have tosay, it had been probably eight years
since my last book had come out, and I was dropping my oldest daughter,
(05:42):
who happens to be named Kate bythe way, dropping her off at
her elementary school in Davidson, NorthCarolina, which has become sort of our
adopted hometown. And it was justone moment when I saw that the date
on the North Carolina state flag wasMay twentieth, seventeen seventy five, And
(06:05):
immediately I wondered, why would thedate on our state flag be fourteen months
before the actual date of our country'sdeclaration of independence? And oftentimes, as
the best stories, this is theway you find the best stories. You
find one tiny little detail and youpull on one tiny little thread. And
(06:30):
that was years ago, and itsent me down the most epic, incredible,
fun, amazing rabbit hole of historythat led to eventually my third book,
which is called Who's Your Founding Father? One Man's epic quest to uncover
(06:50):
the first true Declaration of Independence,And there are so many different threads we
can pull in this conversation, whetherit's the which I hope you'll help me
with the sort of psychology and thesociology behind why we remember certain parts of
history and who gets to decide whichparts of history we remember. There's another
(07:15):
interesting thread with Thomas Jefferson and whatwe never really were taught about him in
high school history. And then there'sjust the whole incredible story behind what really
is the first true Declaration of Independence, which, as we're coming up on
July, I was able to provethat May twentieth, the day that this
(07:38):
document was signed, really is theday that we should be eating hot dogs
and shooting off fireworks, and we'vehad the wrong Independence day for the last
two hundred and forty eight years orso. So that's what I've been up
to, Isn't that all? Imean? I have to say, I
kind of I would personally benefit slightlymore only May twentieth day because it's closer
(08:01):
to my birthday and I really feellike not enough people celebrate that. So
I'm on board. We could wecould shift it. You know what's funny
is the it's I was born onMay nineteenth, and the men who wrote
this document started writing it and discussingit on May nineteenth, And if they
(08:22):
had just been a little bit quickerand a little bit faster in their writing,
I would have been born on thesame day as our independence. So
I understand what you're saying there.Well, I mean calligraphy takes time.
It does, That's right, itis what it is. I mean,
there's something you started pink for meon I'm talking to somebody very recently,
(08:48):
and I think social media changes has. One of the changes that it has
made for a lot of us isnot for everybody, unfortunately, but it
started made us realize that other peopledon't necessarily share fundamental experiences to us.
And by which I mean, there'sthat there's a meme that goes around every
so often about I have a nointernal monologue, and I don't and without
(09:13):
social media anti doctorate, okay,but for your average personal social media,
I don't think it would ever occurto people that, right, some people
don't have a running monologue in theirheads and some people do. In both
is normal, and that when I'msitting, when I'm at rest, like
there's no, I'm not. It'snot that I can't think. It's just
(09:35):
silence until I want to think something. And a comparison for that, as
I was on social media the otherday talking to somebody who made a comment
to me about, Wow, you'rereally into dates. You really dates really
stick with me because I had justcome through a difficult anniversary, and I
was like, yeah, they don'tmean anything to you, you know,
(09:58):
like we kind of especially because itwas the it was the anniversary of a
death in my family, and soI was like, we kind of literally
carved that in stone. So Ifeel I feel like that's important to a
lot of people. And she waslike, no, no, I don't
think about dates almost at all.I don't even remember my own birthday at
the time. Oh that's well,I'm in I'm in the same boat as
(10:20):
you, right, And I therehave been people along this journey who have
sort of wondered, oh, what'sthe big deal? What what may twentieth,
July fourth, it's all you know, it's all independence at all.
But to me it does matter.Um, uh, these dates are significant.
Uh, and you know we're stillcelebrating July fourth, two hundred and
(10:41):
almost fifty years later. Um,and to me, you know, I
think, especially for better or worsein America when it comes to sort of
the founding of the country and thestory of the of the revolution and our
independence being first matters. Um.Declaring into pendants in writing in May of
(11:01):
seventeen seventy five is completely different thandeclaring it in July of seventeen seventy six.
One is doing it knowing that youare risking your life. You could
be hung for treason. You arethe first to do it, and you
will get attention for that in anegative way. You're risking your life by
(11:22):
putting these words in writing in seventeenseventy six. I think a lot of
people forget, you know. Bythe time Jefferson Jefferson with air quotes writes
the declaration, we're already at war. It's essentially a late piece of paperwork
or homework that he was tasked withgetting all the sort of emotions and sentiment
(11:45):
synthesized into one document so that theycan file it. Because at the time
we were we were we were introuble of losing the war before we had
even formally declared into pendit. Soto me, I think these dates do
matter, and I think it's importantwho was first in this context at least
(12:07):
I think a lot of I mean, I would always prefer sort of awards
in all history and a you knowwhat you talk about dates that what did
was christ born on Christmas? Question? And I'm not myself practicing Christian,
but it's always been important to me, like, okay, what's so important
(12:31):
about the twenty fifth of December?What? Okay? Like somebody show me
where and how am I? BecauseI want to understand the context. And
the context in this case was oldwhite men wanted to co opt pagan holidays.
Okay, got it understood, youknow, And it helps just to
know the whole story and then youabsorb and you keep the pieces that are
(12:54):
important to you. But you can'tdo that if you're not ever shown them
in the first place. If you'rejust told, look here, Declaration of
Independence. There's only one, here'sthe day, and there's no story behind
it. What do you do withthat? Yeah? I think you know
what immediately when you said warts andall history rights, that is that I
(13:18):
kept coming back to that. Ittook me two years from contract to publishing
to do this book and over andover and over again. It was this
warts and all thing, and Irealized, we only know, we've only
been taught. We only remember,oh my gosh, ten percent of the
full story. And a lot oftimes we purposefully once we sort of lock
(13:41):
in the five or six things thatwe know about Thomas Jefferson or the founding
Fathers, or the Declaration of Independenceor the war of the Revolutionary War,
it's like our brain just shuts downand says, that's it. I'm done.
I'm not expending the energy to learnanything more. And again that idea
(14:01):
of like, wow, there's somuch great stuff when you go warts and
all, right, you learn thewhole, the whole story. And it
was layer after layer of Thomas Jefferson. It was just astounding the terrible things
that you learn over and over andover again. But what I found myself
(14:22):
being so mad about was I hadonly been taught ten percent of that,
and I'm sort of like you,I'm like, give me all of it,
warts and all. Again. Sorryto keep using that, but I
love that phrase, like give itall to me and then let me decide
what I think of Thomas Jefferson.But don't sugarcoat it. And then make
me find out thirty years later thatmissus Palazzolo in the seventh grade was keeping
(14:46):
all the good stuff to herself withAmerican history. You know, are you
least she may never have known itto be fair? But yeah, Kenny
Blamer, it's it's fine to me, you know, But I mean absolutely,
I credit there are certain things thatyou just don't think about. So
I when I graduated, I graduatedwith a bachelor's degree in psychology and was
(15:13):
like, okay, now what AndI was I was on this cusp of
do I want to go into criminaljustice or do want to do I want
to go into clinical psychology? AndI almost went to law school because I
almost decided that that was going tobe I can argue all day long.
And what sort of scared me awayfrom it was looking at the what's it
(15:37):
called the course less selections that youhave to do for your first year and
just realizing I don't want to onlyread about old white men, and I
know that I'm going to do thatin psychology as well. But psychology had
a bigger ground swell of women andpeople of color and alternate views, because
(15:58):
that's kind of the point, right, Whereas history felt so static and politics
felt so static, and I justdecided, you know what, no,
I want a more flexibility in mindset. But I realized that that's kind of
where I stopped learning about US historyfor a solid twenty five years. You
(16:19):
know, I just sort of onceI made that decision, everything stopped.
And it wasn't until I started listeningto podcasts, you know, five years
ago that I was like, oh, oh, I didn't know that about
Andrew Jackson being this incredible racist,for instance, Like I feel like I
should have known that, you know, and a lot of the you know,
(16:41):
learning what jerrymandering is, and learninglearning how borders are formed. And
because I have said gotten, peoplehave set with me for this, and
that's okay. I don't mind thatsaying before like, I don't I'm not
patriotic fundamentally, because it's an accidentof birth where you happen to be in
the shape of the place was drawnby people. It wasn't. I wasn't
(17:04):
placed there by the hand of God, you know. And people are like,
what you know, You're not You'renot a strong American. I'm like,
I feel like the fact that Iquestioned things is what makes me more
patriotic than the fact that I simplysay, yes, everything you've told me
is true. Yeah, and I'vegotten some of the feedback I've gotten is
you know, how dare you questionedsomeone like Thomas Jefferson, he's on Mount
(17:26):
Rushmore. Um. But you knowwhat people are discovering as as we sort
of dig a little deeper, isthat all these things need to be questioned.
And to me, the true definitionof patriotism is learning right. Learn
learn you can you can sort ofpick whatever side you want, but but
(17:47):
it's the most patriotic thing you cando is learn right, learn both sides,
learn the flaws behind our founding fathers. Um. You get. It
was a really interesting There are acouple of things that that struck me on
what you were talking about. Numberone was, at first thought it would
be upsetting right to learn that basically, you know the country, you understand
(18:11):
the problems that we still have thatare still systemic to this country, and
you understand them a lot better whenyou go back and you realize, oh
my god, those have existed sincethe very founding and the founding documents of
this country. It makes sense thatwe've they're so ingrained in the founding of
this country and we haven't dealt withthem yet. And it's partly because of
(18:36):
again missus Palazzola, who only taughtme ten percent of the founding story.
But to me, it was kindof at least it's upsetting, right,
but it's also hopeful because it's like, Okay, well, that information's there
if each of us takes the timeto learn it and understand why that's still
such a problem. As shocking asthe behavior of Thomas Jefferson was, at
(19:02):
least it's uncovered now. At leastI know that the whole story, and
you know, it's you go allthe way back to the founding of our
country and it didn't It's it's importantto acknowledge that it didn't include women,
it didn't include blacks and black Americans, it didn't include indigenous people. You
(19:26):
know, it didn't include white menwho didn't own property. It was when
you understand that and you understand thatthose are the men who wrote down all
men are created equal, you kindof get an understanding of how screwed up
we were from the very beginning.And but you also learn at the same
(19:47):
time, you know, I do, it's unset. The rhetoric of today's
politics and the things that are goingon are unsettling and scary and will make
you, you know, lose yourmind. But when you study history,
you understand it's also a little bithelpful when you understand this stuff has been
going on in cycles, literally allthe way back to the birth of our
(20:11):
country, and it almost it happensso often and in such cycles it's almost
reassuring to know, well, we'rejust in another terrible cycle right now.
But part of democracy is this sortof these terrible blow points of these cycles.
Because getting back to the Mecklenburg Declarationof Independence, when John Adams discovered
(20:34):
it in eighteen nineteen and he publiclyaccused Thomas Jefferson of plagiarizing from it,
when those two camps of supporters cameout and started attacking each other, trust
me, it is a million timesworse than the language and the rhetoric and
the anger that's going on today.And again, as strange as it sounds,
(20:55):
learning that was almost reassuring that itwas like, Okay, this is
as bad as this is. It'sit's been going on for two hundred and
fifty years. Well it's that feelingof like, look, I'm a mess,
but my parents were two so it'sokay, right, and they're fine.
Well, no, my parents areabsolutely not fine. But you know,
but but that I know, I'mknow I'm not this free because I
(21:17):
think that's that's the to me.There's two pieces of why I like that
a warts and all philosophy is that, for one, there is this this
reassurance that like, this isn't new, This isn't the worst it's ever been,
This isn't the first time they're different. You know, maybe the recipe
has changed a little bit, theproportions have changed, but we've gotten through
(21:41):
things before, so let's let's trythat. Let's you know, don't give
up, don't don't quit. Thisisn't new. And there's also the other
side of that is that there's anempowerment when you understand the nuance of something.
And I speak better I think inanalogy. So I from a fairly
(22:02):
earlier point in my life, Iwas a victim of a violent climb,
and it was I was twelve yearsold. There was like I was clearly
not at there was no victim blamingto be done there. But from almost
as soon as it was done.I needed to start going over in my
head what happened, How could Ihave changed it? What mistakes did I
(22:26):
make? How could I have doneit differently? Not to blame myself,
I did that too, you know, because I can multitask. But more
about I needed to understand that therewere decision points and that there were choices
along the way that I could haveturned left instead of right. And that
(22:47):
allowed me to feel less terrified andpowerless and broken. And that's what allowed
me to feel like later I couldleave my house again because I felt like,
Okay, no, I thought Ithought it through, and this time,
if something happens, I'm going togo I'm going to react in this
way instead. And you know,then you blow that up to a macro
level, like politically, if wepay attention, we don't have to look
(23:10):
at this like okay, look wehad Reagan and that was bad, and
then we had Trump and that wasbad, and you know, it's just
getting worse and worse. It's likeokay, no, no, no,
no, Look, it's been richold white men from way back. But
there are waves and it does come. You know, there's that ebb and
flow. And if we pay attention. Maybe we can grab it and make
(23:30):
some real changes in the moment,rather than just saying, well, you
know, burn it all to theground. There's nothing we can do.
Yeah. And you know, themost startling thing and the research for this
book, was when I realized ThomasJefferson might have been a worse person than
Donald Trump. And I could describeboth of them. I could describe characteristics
(23:52):
and of both of these presidents,and you would not be able to tell
me who I'm talking about. Andagain, you're right, it's just the
idea of knowing that and knowing that. Okay, So these kinds of characters,
um, that have played a centralrole in this country. That it's
not new, it's it's not We'vesurvived worse, um and we'll we'll probably
(24:17):
survive worse in the future. Andagain I found it reassuring. I found
it it was unsettling to learn thesethings about Thomas Jefferson. I mean,
the things that he wrote, thethings that he did, uh you know,
uh, the things that he stoodfor, the hypocrisy at the center
of his life. And you know, you know what's funny is with he
(24:41):
when it was when when it wasdiscovered that he plagiarized this document to write
his own declaration, and he hadbeen giving himself all this credit for writing
the declaration because he was famous nowfor that um all of his cronies,
Uh, just like another certain typeof mob. They didn't believe any of
the evidence, and all they didwas create misinformation and disinformation. And they
(25:04):
just said, we don't need toknow any of the proof. We just
know that Thomas Jefferson is beyond reproach. And I mean it sounds really scarily
familiar, and I wish I hadput this in the book. But the
Mech Deck was maybe the first documentor group of people, first movement in
(25:26):
history to be a victim of misinformationand disinformation, because despite all the proof,
there are still people who just sayit didn't happen, it's a hoax,
Jefferson didn't plagiarize it. You seethe power you understand in perspective and
context, the power of disinformation todaywhen you realize that the Mech Deck has
(25:49):
been fighting this for two hundred andfifty years and they still can't convince people
that they were first and that theyand that Jefferson stole their document. Yeah,
and it you know, at theend of the day, it does
matter, you know some that thereare legal legal scholars and historians talk about
(26:11):
how the Declaration of Independence but beingone of the most poetically and powerfully written
documents in human existence, and so, okay, credit where credits due,
you know. Oh, and sohere's the thing. And again this is
going to sound really familiar to peoplewho are following politics today. Right,
But Jefferson, if he had justadmitted what they had asked him to do,
(26:34):
which was borrow, synthesize, graball the sentiment of the day,
put it in one document, andit was a rush job. He only
had a couple of weeks to doit, a couple not even a couple
of weeks. And he did itas part of a committee. There was
a group that did it. Itwas heavily edited, and he did borrow
from He borrowed from George Mason.You know, Life, Liberty and the
(26:55):
Pursuit of Happiness was written by GeorgeMason. And there are other there are
about six other phrases that he borrowedfrom the mech Deck or the Mecklemburg Declaration.
And what happens was, it's thelie. It's when he became famous
for writing the declaration. He startedtelling people, I didn't borrow from anyone.
(27:17):
I thought this all up myself.No one helped me write it,
no one edited it. It wasthe it's the it was the ego and
the Huberists and the and the liethat he gets caught in because what happens
is he starts saying that and peoplein North Carolina raised their hand and go,
hello, there are six phrases inyour document that are obviously lifted from
(27:38):
our document. And that's when that'swhen the war of misinformation begins. But
yeah, it wasn't. If hehad just been a normal stand up guy
and said, yeah, I borrowedfrom all these different sources, and I'm
proud of the document, but Idon't take full credit, we would not
be having this conversation right now.Even that means true politician in a lot
(28:00):
of ways, is that politicians wantto act. All of them want to
act like they're blazing trails, andI'm like, let's not blaze trials,
let's fix the ones we already have. But they, you know, there's
just pressure to it. And it'sinteresting. So fifteen years not quite fifteen
years ago, when the Rod Blagoyevitchsituation went down in Chicago where he was
(28:26):
Obama was moving on out and hewas putting the Senate seat sort of up
for sale. Basically, I happenedto be in the audience at the John
Stewart The Daily Show when he wasthe guest there, and psychologically fascinating to
(28:47):
me because at the time I wasworking at the prison as well, and
so I spent a lot of timearound sociopaths, and they're there, they're
they're a common breed. And andlike you want, say you're a neurosurgeon,
to be a sociopath, you don'twant them to be too empathic or
too nervous. You want them tobe cold and flat. Your next door
(29:10):
neighbor maybe not so much. Maybeyou want your next door neighbor to care
about you a little bit more.A lot of politicians are very sociopathic.
They they're very they say the rightthing, and they've got this glibness.
But the next level is what Isaw in Blagueyevitch was that you could watch
him. He believed his own words. He wasn't just telling lies or casting
(29:33):
about like. He was saying thingswith such conviction that I was like,
I could hook that guy up toa lie detector right now and he would
pass with flying colors because he believesit. That's how you you know,
that's the trick of how you passa lie detector is first of all,
you take a blood pressure medication andthen you believe your words. You don't,
you don't lie to it. It'snot about lying it. It's about
(29:56):
speak with conviction and and that Ithink there's something about that, you know,
to be a founding father. Ithink that has such a there's this
cachet to that usually we think aboutlike what we put them up on this
pedestal, up on this mountain,How here we go. We're gonna we're
gonna carve away indigenous lands to putthese these faces on it, and we
(30:21):
we we revere that. But thereality is there's kind of got to be
something wrong with you if you wantto rule the world. Yeah, um,
forgive me right for a Seinfeld reference. But wasn't it George Costanza who
said it's not a lie if youbelieve, if you believe it, Jerry,
I don't know you can take Greateefull credit for it. I don't
(30:41):
remember, but yeah, he wasgoing to take a lie detector test,
and George was a notoriously good liar, and he was trying to teach him,
if you believe it, it's nota lie to the to the machine.
But I almost wish I hadn't saidthat, because your point about it
just made bells and whistles go off, because that's exactly Thomas Jefferson. He's
(31:04):
a he is a He's not apsychopath, but he's a he's a what
did you call book sociopath. They'rethe same thing, a psychopath and aeopath.
It's the same basic thing. Thedifference is that a psychopath cannot hide
it. Okay, So he ThomasJefferson, on top of being a complete
(31:26):
a hole, was a sociopath.And there the pattern of his life is,
it's over and over again, andwhat he does with the mech deck.
He wrote a letter back to JohnAdams saying, well, I don't
know what you're talking about. I'venever heard of these people, I've never
read this document. And everything inthat letter was just a complete bull faced
(31:48):
lie. And Jefferson just had notrouble because he was allowed to say those
things and nobody would ever question him. And in fact, one of the
reasons why the mech deck disappeared andhasn't been more well known is that people
just said how the defense was justhow dare you question Thomas Jefferson. End
of discussion. But I'll tell youI think you'll find this interesting. One
(32:10):
of the most sociopathic episodes with ThomasJefferson. He was at monte Cello and
when the British they got to Charlottesvilleand there was a regiment was dispatched to
Monticello to capture Jefferson for Cornwallis.I think it was for the King's birthday.
(32:30):
They were going to give the KingJefferson for his birthday. Jeff you
do mean right? I you know, I got a barbecue grill for my
birthday. So, but Jefferson takesoff, he manages to escape, like
just a couple of minutes before theBritish the soldiers get there. One of
(32:52):
the one of the British soldiers Cox'spistol points it at one of Jefferson's slaves
and says, tell me which wayhe went, what direction? And the
slave said, go ahead and shoot, like I won't tell you, I
won't tell you where he is.So Jefferson learns that his life was essentially
saved by this slave, and justa few weeks later is when Jefferson sat
(33:17):
down and wrote all that horrific raciststuff in notes on the State of Virginia,
and so he and about how inferiorblack people were and about how you
can't mix the races and just allthis terrible racist stuff that I don't even
want to repeat right now, butpeople should look it up. It's it's
(33:37):
it's horrific. But the fact thathe wrote that days after his life was
just saved by someone who was blacktells you everything you need to know about
this particular sociopath. And you know, and it's it's it's it's like dealing
with kids. You know, Ihave four kids, which is too many,
(33:58):
but I oh, we always tryto explain to them, like,
look, it's not about the screwup. It's everybody skips a class or
breaks a plate, or you know, hits their brother or whatever, like
all of these things happen. You'rewithin Listen, I trust me. I've
dealt without people who are without normalrange. You're within normal range. It's
(34:22):
fine. Just the point is,when she's gotten caught, don't lie because
I won't get mad at you forscrewing up, but I'll get mad at
you for lying because the lie ison purpose. And still, of course,
kids being kids, they have totest it and they have to still
tell lies, and they do terribleat it. I'm like, if you're
gonna lie, at least tell agood lie. You know. No,
(34:44):
I didn't eat that moment, andlike the rapper is right there at your
feet, like, don't just don'tat least be a good liar, you
know something. But there's that thingabout digging in and being so sort of
weak morally and brittle that you can'tadmit. Yeah, no, I'm not
just a genius that wrote this allby myself and had just seen you know,
(35:07):
the war going on. Like Ilook, I did the best of
good with what I had. Ithought it's pretty good at thanks, like
moving on to not be able todo that is when he had every he
had every out there, you know, that makes for a fascinating you know,
and you just I I whenever Ihear bad things about famous people,
(35:29):
whether they are politicians or celebrities orcreators or whatever, it always rolls around
to the I just want to Ijust want to know, I just want
to know who it is that I'mlooking at, who it is that I'm
dealing with, and then then I'lldecide do I want to continue to eat
food from this establishment or listen toa podcast by this person, Because sometimes
(35:53):
the answer is all right, yeah, you know, a big farm.
It is terrible, but I haveto be uncertain prescriptions or I die,
you know. So there's trade upsthere. But then there are other things
where it's like, you know what, there's no chicken sandwich in the world
that's good enough for me to bewilling to go to Chick fil A.
(36:15):
That's my line, you know,is that if if you you want that
chicken sandwich and that's your you drawyour own lines. That's cool, that's
fine. That's just where my lineis there. There are podcasters I know
who are fundamentally terrible human beings.It happens to the best of us.
Some of them will still listen totheir shows because sometimes you're kind of a
(36:38):
twisted person and you come out witha really good show. Still. Yeah,
you know, I just I tryto not you know, I don't
join their Patreon or I don't trynot to support them in other ways.
But it's like, look, thereare it's just about just knowing, just
just be right up front with whoand what you are, and that then
let me decide what I what Ido and don't consume. We I was
(37:00):
just on a trip with my family. My oldest daughter just graduated from college,
and we spent the time in thecar talking about this very topic about
can you enjoy the art if theartist is kind of a terrible person?
And I think you're probably too young. But the example I gave was the
Smiths. I love the Smiths.I mean, anybody my age you went
(37:24):
to college, you know, andand Morrissey has turned out to be the
just the worst human being in theworld. But you know, sometimes I
just got all this. Sometimes thereyou just need some Smiths songs. And
my daughter is a fan of MorganWallen, and you know, he's done
some terrible things. And so Ithink we fell on the side of you
(37:47):
can, to a certain extent enjoythe art separate from the artist. And
I think it's okay to you know, for I'm not trying. In the
book, I don't try, andI do discuss what Thomas Jefferson did write,
you know, the section of theDeclaration of Independence that he wrote about
(38:08):
getting rid of slavery, which wasedited out. It's incredible and it's very
strong and powerful and moving language,and it's too bad it didn't make the
final document. But all credit dueto him for at least writing those words
and supporting it in that way.And and you know, he built the
(38:29):
University of Virginia, and he wasvery you know, his stance about freedom
from religion and freedom separation of churchand state very admirable. So I think,
like a lot of people, youknow, we're not all and our
heroes and our politicians and our foundersand our favorite musicians are not all good
(38:53):
or all bad. Thomas jeff Jeffersonexactly the same way. He's we're all
a little bit of both right onany given day. And I think the
air the mistake and you bring itup right, it's a really good point.
Is um, we put them onthis pedestal where they we think they
have to be perfect, and theyshouldn't be. We should be able to
(39:15):
we should learn everything about somebody andjust sort of understand them in context.
I think that's that's your point isreally really well taken on that well,
and they you know. A morerecent parallel is a couple of years ago,
I was talking to a sadly formerpodcaster. They they had to shut
(39:39):
the showdown, which is terrible becauseI love them. But my friend Jesse
is a defense attorney and she frequentlyrepresents sensitive crimes, right, and this
was all right when R. Kellywas first starting to realize what a a
(40:00):
legitimately terrible person he is. AndI was like, all right, Jesse,
so you tell me, because youknow, clinical forensic psychologists and defense
attorneys often kind of sometimes we're theonly people that are sitting in the courtroom
going wait, this is still ahuman being. Okay, Like, yeah,
he did some really bad stuff,and we need to pay attention to
(40:22):
the bad stuff he did and weneed to adjudicate that. But he's got
a mom and he maybe does origamior he can sing or something, and
so like, let's just keep itall in context and then we decide big
picture, you know. And shesaid, she's like, big picture,
if he's guilty of which since thenwe know, yes, he's been bound
(40:44):
guilty of it. At the time, she was like, if he's guilty
of this stuff, he's he's foundguilty of I'm still going to listen to
Ignition on my way to work outbecause it's a good workout song. And
she's like, I'll just listen toit and I'll swear about it at the
time, and I'm like, that'sthat's totally fair. I feel like that's
a that's a good balance, youknow. It's it's just knowing, you
(41:07):
know. And I don't want toknow everything about everybody, like I would,
I would back off there, becauseI think that's what our social media
world is doing right now, iswe all just have this word vomit in
the moment, reflexively or impulsively,without having time to like hang on and
(41:29):
think two seconds before you hit publish. But no, the big deal is
to be the first one to reply, or the first one to post,
or the first one to announce something. And so I don't want to know
everything about everybody at all times.But if you choose to live a life
in the public eye, be consistentbecause what bothers me is not flaws,
(41:52):
what bothers me is disappointment, youknow. And I talk to a lot
of you know, a lot ofmy my my especially mom friends, but
parent friends who struggle, especially withtheir first kid, about I lost my
temper, I screamed at them today, I swore at them or whatever.
And I had my first kid attwenty two, so I have older children
(42:15):
than most of my compatriots do.And my answer to them has always been,
like, good, let them seeyou have laws, Let them see
you screw up. Let them seemom and dad fight. You just also
then have to let them see youapologize and fix the breakage and recover and
(42:37):
get up again after, Like youhave to let them see the whole thing.
Like that's be consistent because you know, for me, I grew up
in a generation where you know,you didn't know your parents. You didn't
you didn't really get to see.You only saw occasional glimpses of what their
real sense of humor was, orwhat their music was or whatever it's.
(43:00):
It was a very different from me, like the separation, you know,
front seat, back seat the car, and my parents would have a conversation
in the front seat and I'd bein the back seat, and I had
nothing to do with me no matterwhat, you know. And it wasn't
until I was an adult where Ireally looked at each of my parents and
saw some really problematic flaws, andon the one on my dad's side,
(43:23):
it was a mental illness deal,which I wish i'd known. I wish
I had known more of I wishI had known more ways to help or
reach out or just understand him,because I was just terrified of him growing
up. It wasn't until I wasan adult and I was like, oh,
oh, you're not a complete jerk. That's actually a huge relief.
(43:45):
You know, it wasn't me.You didn't hate me. What a relief.
My mother is more toxic, notin a mental illness way, but
just a narcissistic in an unhealthy way. But again, I know that until
I was an adult and I becamean adult and I started to see this
and got out of that mode oflike, well, that's just what moms
(44:07):
do and realized, no, no, that's not how it has to be.
And seeing that, I think,I feel like it was such a
disappointment to realize she had a choiceand didn't have to be that way,
you know, And when I didcall her on it finally a couple of
years ago, of like, look, this has got to stop. Boundaries.
We're going to do some boundaries now, because now she was starting to
(44:29):
be enact similar behaviors to my childrenthat she had done to me, and
I was like, you can beatup on me all day long if you
want, but you don't, youdon't go after my kids. And I
was like, here's the boundaries.And her response was I am not going
to follow those boundaries, so youdon't get to do that. And I
was like, okay, we're betterto know we're done. And so my
children don't know their grandmother and I'mgoing to try really hard to be fair
(44:53):
and remember to tell them the funnystories and the good stories and let them
have happy memories too. But man, warts and all, and this was
a real big war. Is thatyou know, there's some people, some
relationships can't be fixed. But thepoint is just that that that disappointment,
that crash is so much harder.I think if you held somebody on a
(45:15):
pedestal and you thought of them isperfect, and then suddenly you learn like,
oh no, this isn't just thatyou like snore or chew with your
your mouth open. This is thisis not just like you use the wrong
salad for it, Like this isa big flaw and it's so much harder
to learn that I feel, thanto absorb it and make decisions and maintain
(45:38):
balance better. I'm I'm moving ingesturing because you can't quite find the right
word. So it's an audio podcast, and so people at home can just
picture me sort of flailing around alittle. That's that's accurate. Is that
it's just hiding the flaws. Don'tdo that. Yeah, And I think,
oh, the gestures you're making.I think all the Jefferson scholars were
(46:02):
making those up until about two thousand, when the DNA evidence made it absolutely
certain that while telling people not tomix races, he was carrying on an
affair with one of his slaves andhaving six children of mixed race. So
and I think you are right.I think it's interesting when we accept those
(46:27):
I think it's so much it's easierto because I have a parent who was
very similar and a parent who hada very similar reaction when I finally said
enough is enough. So it mustbe some kind of it must be some
characteristic of that kind of personality.When you call their bluff and they have
no other options, that's when theyjust say I'm done. But that's a
(46:51):
different, a different answer. ButI do think and you'd be interesting to
get your take on this is thata lot of people with Jefferson when you
learn about what he did with SallyHemmings, when you learn about um you
know the fact that he kept hisown children enslaved, and that he had
six hundred and seven slaves and heonly freed two of them during his lifetime,
(47:15):
and when he terrorized his friend's wives, and when he plagiarized the Declaration
of Independence. Most people's reactions area little bit like our parents. They
were just like, Nope, Idon't, I don't want don't, I'm
not I don't even I'm not interestedin even learning that stop right now.
Instead of it's really interesting, It'salmost like a defense mechanism, right,
(47:37):
It's like, don't tell me that. I don't want source notes, I
don't want facts. I want tothink of Jefferson the way I think of
him. It's it's I understand nowhow you were connecting these two things,
and it's very similar. People arejust like, Nope, don't tell me,
I don't I don't even want toknow, and I don't know.
How do you reach those people?Like, how do you reach those readers?
(48:00):
You almost can't ast you almost can't. I think that it takes more
strength to be flexible and to bevulnerable than it does to scream, and
so a lot of people go forthe easy way and they're just going to
scream with their yes, no,right wrong approach, and so then all
I can do is offer the information, you know, and that's I feel
(48:24):
like being a forensic psychologist put mein a unique position to be able to
tolerate the screaming and the yelling thathappens online. Now because I worked in
New Hampshire and I was an employeeof the state. So some states you're
hired either by the prosecution or thedefense, and then you got pressure to
(48:45):
come up with certain answers, rightfor is this person competent to stand trial?
Or what is their diagnosis or whatever. In New Hampshire, I was
an employee of the state, andso I didn't care when I went into
testify about a given case, andI would say, this is these are
the steps I took to reach thisdiagnosis, and so this is what I
(49:09):
think about this person's competency now andat the time of the of the event.
And then I got off the standand it was sort of like leave
it at the door, like Idon't. It's not up to me.
I'm paid either way. I didmy job either way. And that allowed
for a flexibility of thought without pressure, you know. So that so that
(49:31):
it allowed me to see the humanityin a criminal and also to look at
a human and be like, youdid some really bad stuff, like please
stay where you like to do both, And I think a lot of us
are. We feel like it's easierto yell and shout and say no than
(49:52):
it is to be flexible and vulnerable. And the biggest vulnerability for most humans,
which is sad, is to sayI don't know, and people won't
want to do that. I don'tconfront me with something that's gonna make me
think there's a that there. Italked to somebody who as a sociologist,
(50:13):
I think about why why people areso once they have Jefferson or other parts
of history locked in, they're sounwilling to sort of open those things up
and learn new things and and uh, you know, and why we only
have capacity for five or six detailsabout these these really important parts of our
(50:35):
country's founding. But I can rememberthe lyrics to every you know, every
hip hop song, from from fromgrowing up, and and it's just,
um it has I thought there wouldbe more confrontation with this book. But
you're right. I mean, Ithink the approaches I'm not taking any great
pleasure in showing you the true fullstory of Thomas Jefferson. I'm not sort
(51:00):
of reveling in it and making funand sort of I think this is hilarious.
It's it's I'm suffering, not suffering. I'm you know, it's this
is as hard for me to learnas it is for the reader. And
I think that's why, Um,there hasn't been more, not backlash,
but um that it's just kind oflike, look, I'm giving you the
information. That's the least I cando, and what you do with it
(51:22):
is is really up to you.Um. But now I'm realizing that from
our earlier conversation that my dad andThomas Jefferson's shared a lot of the same
personality training. It's like, ohno, you can just build me for
the therapy. It's fine, youknow, it's but it's there is something
(51:43):
about it's comforting to say this ismy world, whether it's the political world
or I mean you think about likethere have been there's a there's a I
can't. I can't start statistics exceptto stay that it's is a bizarrely huge
number of acts of violence that happenover the surveys of people's property lines.
(52:09):
And you're talking like six inch difference, you know, is it this side
of the tree or that side ofthe tree, or you know that kind
of thing, and like acts ofviolence between people who have lived peaceably side
by side for twenty years and suddenlythey learned that that foot of grass is
mine, not yours, and theylose it. And I think there's just
(52:32):
something about we want to tell ourselvesthat I only have to learn it once,
and once I've learned it, Ican put it in its little slot
and it sits there and it's onits bookshelf, and we're good. And
the answer is that's not how lifeworks. Like you if you start with
a hundred books and you can putthem in alphabetical order, and that's fine.
(52:52):
Now you get a new book,where do you put it? Because
if you actually put it in thecorrect contextual eye slot, other books are
now in a different place in line. And for some people that's really hard
to flex with. Yeah, andyou're seeing that in the response to the
book, right, I think thepeople with the personality of like my mind's
(53:14):
a sponge, fill it up,just keep you know, I keep filling
it up, and I'll wring itout and fill it up again. And
I want to learn as much asI can. And I think that's a
much more healthy way to approach thesekinds of things. And there have been
people who are like, Nope,don't nope. I've got Jefferson locked in.
He's carved on Mount Rushmore. I'mnot going to change my opinion.
(53:37):
And like you said, it's almostyou just have to almost skip over those
people and try and reach the peoplethat you can. And again, it's
all fascinating, that's the thing.Whether you agree or disagree or don't like
it, it's still fascinating. Andit's incredible how much of our country's history
and are very founding as a democracywe don't know. It's like we access
(54:00):
ten percent of our brain or whatever. It is. The same goes for
American history. And so are youworking on the next thing? We do
we get it hinto the next thing? Or are you just gonna wait for
the next road? Signed to smackyep side the head yeah, I think
(54:22):
I'm still having so much fun,sort of like being in this world.
And yeah, I am slowly crawlingout of this rabbit hole that I've been
in for two years. And Idon't necessarily want to leave because I kind
of live for these kinds of storiesand these kind of crazy adventures. But
yeah, I've got different ideas andthey'll probably it'll probably next time it'll maybe
(54:46):
I'll it'll be more sports related,same kind of crazy, unexplained, bizarre
story that nobody else would dare touch. Those are the perfect stories for me.
But maybe I maybe I'll be donewith the Jeffersonians and move on to
the NFL or something. I havealways been an unabashed nerd. I love
(55:20):
history and science and math. Youknow, I did marry a math guy,
but history specifically. I love learningthings like this. I love fleshing
out the details and yeah, wartsand all. I mean, we're talking
to a forensic psychologist right here.Like I appreciate all facets of humanity,
(55:45):
even when they're weird or darker,incorrect. So it makes me wonder,
you know, what else am Iwrong about? What else are we collectively
wrong about? I think it matters, so David, thank you so much
(56:06):
for coming to play. That wasso fun and so interesting, and you
know, full disclosure, not toolong ago I had somebody come on whose
pitch was political or political adjacent innature as well, and that one was
(56:28):
difficult for me. It wasn't awful, and I released the episode, but
it was harder. It made metentative because I don't vet my guests that
deeply. I don't weed someone elsejust because their politics don't match mine,
(56:50):
even if that's what we're going totalk about. And so when I read
the title of your book and readyour email, I was like, oh,
oh, I hope this is notanother case of someone telling me that
I'm wrong, because you know alot of people do that, and I
(57:14):
don't want it today, not today. And so I was so thrilled that
you and I saw eye to eyeand that was just a delight and absolute
delight. Please come back and play. I'll even talk sports with you.
And I told you I'm a terriblesports wife. So this is saying something.
(57:37):
Thank you guys for listening. Ifyou're listening to this around the time
of release, then what the hellhappened on Twitter this weekend? Right like
I know, I know what happened. It broke even more. More parts
fell off this horrible broken machine,and people are scattering. So I'm going
(58:05):
to say this. I'm still onTwitter and I'm going to stay there until
the bitter end because I cannot resista good train wreck. That being said,
I'm at iWB podcast on all ofthe social medias that I know of
that includes blue Sky and Spoutable,as well as Instagram, Facebook, masted
(58:30):
on post wherever I can think ofto grab the user name. I won't
use Hive. I don't even knowif it's still active, but I have
problems with the developers, not personalproblems, but like you know, otherwise,
I keep grabbing the user name andI'm just sort of in this liminal
(58:54):
space of waiting to see where peoplego and what happens next. I'm super
bitter about it because back in myday, I could use Twitter to promote
the podcast and Facebook to engage withlisteners, and then that was basically it.
(59:15):
And now there's so many different platformsand each of them has their pros
and cons, and just get offmy lawn. This is why we can't
have nice things, you know.Anyway, My point to you the listener
(59:36):
right now is that I'm around.I'm maintaining as much availability as I can
think to maintain, and if youneed to reach me somewhere and I'm not
on that platform, let me know. iWB Podcast at gmail dot com.
(01:00:00):
Mostly I hibernate in my Discord serverevery day, and I still use my
Facebook group several days a week.I just don't like the censorship aspect of
Facebook, so I'm not there asoften as I used to be. But
still I'm maintaining a presence in asmany places as possible until we all figure
(01:00:25):
out what next. I'm even onReddit, but I don't have a subreddit
or anything like that because I'm notgoing to start one and nobody else has.
So whatever the point is iWB podcasteverywhere that I know of, and
just hang in there. We'll findeach other. Okay, I won't stop
(01:00:50):
the podcast, and I'm not deletingaccounts right now. It was wild this
weekend watching people really in legitimate distressas Twitter was down, and they realized
that was a bedrock of their socialcommunity. And that's what people don't understand,
(01:01:14):
Like the cool thing to do isto complain about the downsides of social
media. But the upsides are itprovides a lot of people with a social
outlet they cannot get any other wayin their life. And if you take
it away, it's not like they'resuddenly going to go run around and climb
trees and hang out with their friends. And I'm talking about full grown adults
(01:01:35):
rather than just kids, but kidstoo. There are lots of people of
all ages who have no outlet outsideof social media. Also, creators rely
so heavily on it. This ishow we find people, and when you
take the platform away, we don'tknow what to do. We just want
(01:01:58):
you to hear what we may aid. We just want to share that without
necessarily diving into the complexities and politicsof social media. So anyway, I
am aware that you guys are outthere. I am trying to stay as
available as possible, and even whenthe wheels are falling off, you matter one
First impressions can take only six secondsto make. But if you're neurodivergent moost
quick judgments about you can be misleading. Because of most people's ignorance around learning
disabilities, people think it means you'reintellectually incapable. I'm not rainmare. Everyone
TOASI person is a rainmare. Ithought I was talking to people who understood
(00:21):
dislike say an ADHD, but theydid not. They freaked out, and
We're like, well, if you'vegot turest, if it's going to be
a problem, then we can justfire you and get someone else. I'm
Carol and Keel and I host Beyondsix Seconds, a podcast where neurodivergent people
share their lives and advocacy. Oneof my goals is making autism not something
(00:42):
that's scary. I really want tohelp people understand this broxy a little bit
better. Get the real life ofthreat syndrome out there. Stop thinking we
or nothing but a joke. Let'sshatter misconceptions and celebrate neurodiversity together. Listen
at Beyond six seconds dot net orwherever you get your podcast. This podcast
(01:02):
involves topics such as violence, sex, and mental illness. If this might
disturb you or those around you,please reconsider it's okay. Privacy and confidentiality
have been protected, with personal informationremoved when possible. If you ever feel
unsafe or suicidal, please call yourlocal crisis center, emergency services, or
(01:26):
national hotline. In the United States, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is one
eight hundred two seven three eight twofive five You matter, Hey, this
(01:47):
is Kate as of time of recordingin day of release. This is July
third, twenty twenty three. Soare you getting along for the fourth?
Do you have plans? Have youalready celebrated the fourth? Are you one
of those people and I use theword people lightly there who thinks they should
(02:15):
stand in the middle of the streetand set off fireworks just for frenzies in
midnight. Don't don't do that.By the way, anyway, if you
are an American or have American friends, you're probably aware of the fourth of
(02:36):
July the birth of independence and timeto get patriotic and let's celebrate in Merca
and so on. Also, it'sone of the holidays where you can reliably
find cotton candy out in public,which is really important to me. But
(03:00):
did you know that it's not actuallythe fourth of July, that we're celebrating
on the wrong date entirely, andthat the US is effectively rewriting history.
Shocker right. My guest today isnamed David Fleming, and he assumed once
(03:23):
upon a time that July fourth,seventeen seventy six had some historic meaning,
and it still does to an extent, and it always will because it has
become cannon. But actually we're celebratingsix weeks late. He learned this accidentally
(03:46):
in the way that the best discoveriesare made, and went down the rabbit
hole. He wrote a book aboutit, and we talk about it.
We also go into some political stuff, but and gentially, the reality is
that what we talk about is theimportance of accuracy and knowing what really happened
(04:15):
before we decide how to spin it. Are you sure you really want to
know? This is ignorance? Wasbliss? Hi? Everybody? My name
(04:58):
is David Fleming. I'm an authorof three books, and I've been a
senior writer at ESPN for the lasttwenty three years or so. Before that,
I was a writer at Sports Illustrated, and I would say the niche
that I've carved out over the lastthree decades as a long form magazine writer,
(05:18):
magazine style writer, now that themagazine has gone, is sort of
the strange, obscure, craziest storiesthat are barely and tangentially only tangentially related
to sports. And I have tosay, it had been probably eight years
since my last book had come out, and I was dropping my oldest daughter,
(05:42):
who happens to be named Kate bythe way, dropping her off at
her elementary school in Davidson, NorthCarolina, which has become sort of our
adopted hometown. And it was justone moment when I saw that the date
on the North Carolina state flag wasMay twentieth, seventeen seventy five, And
(06:05):
immediately I wondered, why would thedate on our state flag be fourteen months
before the actual date of our country'sdeclaration of independence? And oftentimes, as
the best stories, this is theway you find the best stories. You
find one tiny little detail and youpull on one tiny little thread. And
(06:30):
that was years ago, and itsent me down the most epic, incredible,
fun, amazing rabbit hole of historythat led to eventually my third book,
which is called Who's Your Founding Father? One Man's epic quest to uncover
(06:50):
the first true Declaration of Independence,And there are so many different threads we
can pull in this conversation, whetherit's the which I hope you'll help me
with the sort of psychology and thesociology behind why we remember certain parts of
history and who gets to decide whichparts of history we remember. There's another
(07:15):
interesting thread with Thomas Jefferson and whatwe never really were taught about him in
high school history. And then there'sjust the whole incredible story behind what really
is the first true Declaration of Independence, which, as we're coming up on
July, I was able to provethat May twentieth, the day that this
(07:38):
document was signed, really is theday that we should be eating hot dogs
and shooting off fireworks, and we'vehad the wrong Independence day for the last
two hundred and forty eight years orso. So that's what I've been up
to, Isn't that all? Imean? I have to say, I
kind of I would personally benefit slightlymore only May twentieth day because it's closer
(08:01):
to my birthday and I really feellike not enough people celebrate that. So
I'm on board. We could wecould shift it. You know what's funny
is the it's I was born onMay nineteenth, and the men who wrote
this document started writing it and discussingit on May nineteenth, And if they
(08:22):
had just been a little bit quickerand a little bit faster in their writing,
I would have been born on thesame day as our independence. So
I understand what you're saying there.Well, I mean calligraphy takes time.
It does, That's right, itis what it is. I mean,
there's something you started pink for meon I'm talking to somebody very recently,
(08:48):
and I think social media changes has. One of the changes that it has
made for a lot of us isnot for everybody, unfortunately, but it
started made us realize that other peopledon't necessarily share fundamental experiences to us.
And by which I mean, there'sthat there's a meme that goes around every
so often about I have a nointernal monologue, and I don't and without
(09:13):
social media anti doctorate, okay,but for your average personal social media,
I don't think it would ever occurto people that, right, some people
don't have a running monologue in theirheads and some people do. In both
is normal, and that when I'msitting, when I'm at rest, like
there's no, I'm not. It'snot that I can't think. It's just
(09:35):
silence until I want to think something. And a comparison for that, as
I was on social media the otherday talking to somebody who made a comment
to me about, Wow, you'rereally into dates. You really dates really
stick with me because I had justcome through a difficult anniversary, and I
was like, yeah, they don'tmean anything to you, you know,
(09:58):
like we kind of especially because itwas the it was the anniversary of a
death in my family, and soI was like, we kind of literally
carved that in stone. So Ifeel I feel like that's important to a
lot of people. And she waslike, no, no, I don't
think about dates almost at all.I don't even remember my own birthday at
the time. Oh that's well,I'm in I'm in the same boat as
(10:20):
you, right, And I therehave been people along this journey who have
sort of wondered, oh, what'sthe big deal? What what may twentieth,
July fourth, it's all you know, it's all independence at all.
But to me it does matter.Um, uh, these dates are significant.
Uh, and you know we're stillcelebrating July fourth, two hundred and
(10:41):
almost fifty years later. Um,and to me, you know, I
think, especially for better or worsein America when it comes to sort of
the founding of the country and thestory of the of the revolution and our
independence being first matters. Um.Declaring into pendants in writing in May of
(11:01):
seventeen seventy five is completely different thandeclaring it in July of seventeen seventy six.
One is doing it knowing that youare risking your life. You could
be hung for treason. You arethe first to do it, and you
will get attention for that in anegative way. You're risking your life by
(11:22):
putting these words in writing in seventeenseventy six. I think a lot of
people forget, you know. Bythe time Jefferson Jefferson with air quotes writes
the declaration, we're already at war. It's essentially a late piece of paperwork
or homework that he was tasked withgetting all the sort of emotions and sentiment
(11:45):
synthesized into one document so that theycan file it. Because at the time
we were we were we were introuble of losing the war before we had
even formally declared into pendit. Soto me, I think these dates do
matter, and I think it's importantwho was first in this context at least
(12:07):
I think a lot of I mean, I would always prefer sort of awards
in all history and a you knowwhat you talk about dates that what did
was christ born on Christmas? Question? And I'm not myself practicing Christian,
but it's always been important to me, like, okay, what's so important
(12:31):
about the twenty fifth of December?What? Okay? Like somebody show me
where and how am I? BecauseI want to understand the context. And
the context in this case was oldwhite men wanted to co opt pagan holidays.
Okay, got it understood, youknow, And it helps just to
know the whole story and then youabsorb and you keep the pieces that are
(12:54):
important to you. But you can'tdo that if you're not ever shown them
in the first place. If you'rejust told, look here, Declaration of
Independence. There's only one, here'sthe day, and there's no story behind
it. What do you do withthat? Yeah? I think you know
what immediately when you said warts andall history rights, that is that I
(13:18):
kept coming back to that. Ittook me two years from contract to publishing
to do this book and over andover and over again. It was this
warts and all thing, and Irealized, we only know, we've only
been taught. We only remember,oh my gosh, ten percent of the
full story. And a lot oftimes we purposefully once we sort of lock
(13:41):
in the five or six things thatwe know about Thomas Jefferson or the founding
Fathers, or the Declaration of Independenceor the war of the Revolutionary War,
it's like our brain just shuts downand says, that's it. I'm done.
I'm not expending the energy to learnanything more. And again that idea
(14:01):
of like, wow, there's somuch great stuff when you go warts and
all, right, you learn thewhole, the whole story. And it
was layer after layer of Thomas Jefferson. It was just astounding the terrible things
that you learn over and over andover again. But what I found myself
(14:22):
being so mad about was I hadonly been taught ten percent of that,
and I'm sort of like you,I'm like, give me all of it,
warts and all. Again. Sorryto keep using that, but I
love that phrase, like give itall to me and then let me decide
what I think of Thomas Jefferson.But don't sugarcoat it. And then make
me find out thirty years later thatmissus Palazzolo in the seventh grade was keeping
(14:46):
all the good stuff to herself withAmerican history. You know, are you
least she may never have known itto be fair? But yeah, Kenny
Blamer, it's it's fine to me, you know, But I mean absolutely,
I credit there are certain things thatyou just don't think about. So
I when I graduated, I graduatedwith a bachelor's degree in psychology and was
(15:13):
like, okay, now what AndI was I was on this cusp of
do I want to go into criminaljustice or do want to do I want
to go into clinical psychology? AndI almost went to law school because I
almost decided that that was going tobe I can argue all day long.
And what sort of scared me awayfrom it was looking at the what's it
(15:37):
called the course less selections that youhave to do for your first year and
just realizing I don't want to onlyread about old white men, and I
know that I'm going to do thatin psychology as well. But psychology had
a bigger ground swell of women andpeople of color and alternate views, because
(15:58):
that's kind of the point, right, Whereas history felt so static and politics
felt so static, and I justdecided, you know what, no,
I want a more flexibility in mindset. But I realized that that's kind of
where I stopped learning about US historyfor a solid twenty five years. You
(16:19):
know, I just sort of onceI made that decision, everything stopped.
And it wasn't until I started listeningto podcasts, you know, five years
ago that I was like, oh, oh, I didn't know that about
Andrew Jackson being this incredible racist,for instance, Like I feel like I
should have known that, you know, and a lot of the you know,
(16:41):
learning what jerrymandering is, and learninglearning how borders are formed. And
because I have said gotten, peoplehave set with me for this, and
that's okay. I don't mind thatsaying before like, I don't I'm not
patriotic fundamentally, because it's an accidentof birth where you happen to be in
the shape of the place was drawnby people. It wasn't. I wasn't
(17:04):
placed there by the hand of God, you know. And people are like,
what you know, You're not You'renot a strong American. I'm like,
I feel like the fact that Iquestioned things is what makes me more
patriotic than the fact that I simplysay, yes, everything you've told me
is true. Yeah, and I'vegotten some of the feedback I've gotten is
you know, how dare you questionedsomeone like Thomas Jefferson, he's on Mount
(17:26):
Rushmore. Um. But you knowwhat people are discovering as as we sort
of dig a little deeper, isthat all these things need to be questioned.
And to me, the true definitionof patriotism is learning right. Learn
learn you can you can sort ofpick whatever side you want, but but
(17:47):
it's the most patriotic thing you cando is learn right, learn both sides,
learn the flaws behind our founding fathers. Um. You get. It
was a really interesting There are acouple of things that that struck me on
what you were talking about. Numberone was, at first thought it would
be upsetting right to learn that basically, you know the country, you understand
(18:11):
the problems that we still have thatare still systemic to this country, and
you understand them a lot better whenyou go back and you realize, oh
my god, those have existed sincethe very founding and the founding documents of
this country. It makes sense thatwe've they're so ingrained in the founding of
this country and we haven't dealt withthem yet. And it's partly because of
(18:36):
again missus Palazzola, who only taughtme ten percent of the founding story.
But to me, it was kindof at least it's upsetting, right,
but it's also hopeful because it's like, Okay, well, that information's there
if each of us takes the timeto learn it and understand why that's still
such a problem. As shocking asthe behavior of Thomas Jefferson was, at
(19:02):
least it's uncovered now. At leastI know that the whole story, and
you know, it's you go allthe way back to the founding of our
country and it didn't It's it's importantto acknowledge that it didn't include women,
it didn't include blacks and black Americans, it didn't include indigenous people. You
(19:26):
know, it didn't include white menwho didn't own property. It was when
you understand that and you understand thatthose are the men who wrote down all
men are created equal, you kindof get an understanding of how screwed up
we were from the very beginning.And but you also learn at the same
(19:47):
time, you know, I do, it's unset. The rhetoric of today's
politics and the things that are goingon are unsettling and scary and will make
you, you know, lose yourmind. But when you study history,
you understand it's also a little bithelpful when you understand this stuff has been
going on in cycles, literally allthe way back to the birth of our
(20:11):
country, and it almost it happensso often and in such cycles it's almost
reassuring to know, well, we'rejust in another terrible cycle right now.
But part of democracy is this sortof these terrible blow points of these cycles.
Because getting back to the Mecklenburg Declarationof Independence, when John Adams discovered
(20:34):
it in eighteen nineteen and he publiclyaccused Thomas Jefferson of plagiarizing from it,
when those two camps of supporters cameout and started attacking each other, trust
me, it is a million timesworse than the language and the rhetoric and
the anger that's going on today.And again, as strange as it sounds,
(20:55):
learning that was almost reassuring that itwas like, Okay, this is
as bad as this is. It'sit's been going on for two hundred and
fifty years. Well it's that feelingof like, look, I'm a mess,
but my parents were two so it'sokay, right, and they're fine.
Well, no, my parents areabsolutely not fine. But you know,
but but that I know, I'mknow I'm not this free because I
(21:17):
think that's that's the to me.There's two pieces of why I like that
a warts and all philosophy is that, for one, there is this this
reassurance that like, this isn't new, This isn't the worst it's ever been,
This isn't the first time they're different. You know, maybe the recipe
has changed a little bit, theproportions have changed, but we've gotten through
(21:41):
things before, so let's let's trythat. Let's you know, don't give
up, don't don't quit. Thisisn't new. And there's also the other
side of that is that there's anempowerment when you understand the nuance of something.
And I speak better I think inanalogy. So I from a fairly
(22:02):
earlier point in my life, Iwas a victim of a violent climb,
and it was I was twelve yearsold. There was like I was clearly
not at there was no victim blamingto be done there. But from almost
as soon as it was done.I needed to start going over in my
head what happened, How could Ihave changed it? What mistakes did I
(22:26):
make? How could I have doneit differently? Not to blame myself,
I did that too, you know, because I can multitask. But more
about I needed to understand that therewere decision points and that there were choices
along the way that I could haveturned left instead of right. And that
(22:47):
allowed me to feel less terrified andpowerless and broken. And that's what allowed
me to feel like later I couldleave my house again because I felt like,
Okay, no, I thought Ithought it through, and this time,
if something happens, I'm going togo I'm going to react in this
way instead. And you know,then you blow that up to a macro
level, like politically, if wepay attention, we don't have to look
(23:10):
at this like okay, look wehad Reagan and that was bad, and
then we had Trump and that wasbad, and you know, it's just
getting worse and worse. It's likeokay, no, no, no,
no, Look, it's been richold white men from way back. But
there are waves and it does come. You know, there's that ebb and
flow. And if we pay attention. Maybe we can grab it and make
(23:30):
some real changes in the moment,rather than just saying, well, you
know, burn it all to theground. There's nothing we can do.
Yeah. And you know, themost startling thing and the research for this
book, was when I realized ThomasJefferson might have been a worse person than
Donald Trump. And I could describeboth of them. I could describe characteristics
(23:52):
and of both of these presidents,and you would not be able to tell
me who I'm talking about. Andagain, you're right, it's just the
idea of knowing that and knowing that. Okay, So these kinds of characters,
um, that have played a centralrole in this country. That it's
not new, it's it's not We'vesurvived worse, um and we'll we'll probably
(24:17):
survive worse in the future. Andagain I found it reassuring. I found
it it was unsettling to learn thesethings about Thomas Jefferson. I mean,
the things that he wrote, thethings that he did, uh you know,
uh, the things that he stoodfor, the hypocrisy at the center
of his life. And you know, you know what's funny is with he
(24:41):
when it was when when it wasdiscovered that he plagiarized this document to write
his own declaration, and he hadbeen giving himself all this credit for writing
the declaration because he was famous nowfor that um all of his cronies,
Uh, just like another certain typeof mob. They didn't believe any of
the evidence, and all they didwas create misinformation and disinformation. And they
(25:04):
just said, we don't need toknow any of the proof. We just
know that Thomas Jefferson is beyond reproach. And I mean it sounds really scarily
familiar, and I wish I hadput this in the book. But the
Mech Deck was maybe the first documentor group of people, first movement in
(25:26):
history to be a victim of misinformationand disinformation, because despite all the proof,
there are still people who just sayit didn't happen, it's a hoax,
Jefferson didn't plagiarize it. You seethe power you understand in perspective and
context, the power of disinformation todaywhen you realize that the Mech Deck has
(25:49):
been fighting this for two hundred andfifty years and they still can't convince people
that they were first and that theyand that Jefferson stole their document. Yeah,
and it you know, at theend of the day, it does
matter, you know some that thereare legal legal scholars and historians talk about
(26:11):
how the Declaration of Independence but beingone of the most poetically and powerfully written
documents in human existence, and so, okay, credit where credits due,
you know. Oh, and sohere's the thing. And again this is
going to sound really familiar to peoplewho are following politics today. Right,
But Jefferson, if he had justadmitted what they had asked him to do,
(26:34):
which was borrow, synthesize, graball the sentiment of the day,
put it in one document, andit was a rush job. He only
had a couple of weeks to doit, a couple not even a couple
of weeks. And he did itas part of a committee. There was
a group that did it. Itwas heavily edited, and he did borrow
from He borrowed from George Mason.You know, Life, Liberty and the
(26:55):
Pursuit of Happiness was written by GeorgeMason. And there are other there are
about six other phrases that he borrowedfrom the mech Deck or the Mecklemburg Declaration.
And what happens was, it's thelie. It's when he became famous
for writing the declaration. He startedtelling people, I didn't borrow from anyone.
(27:17):
I thought this all up myself.No one helped me write it,
no one edited it. It wasthe it's the it was the ego and
the Huberists and the and the liethat he gets caught in because what happens
is he starts saying that and peoplein North Carolina raised their hand and go,
hello, there are six phrases inyour document that are obviously lifted from
(27:38):
our document. And that's when that'swhen the war of misinformation begins. But
yeah, it wasn't. If hehad just been a normal stand up guy
and said, yeah, I borrowedfrom all these different sources, and I'm
proud of the document, but Idon't take full credit, we would not
be having this conversation right now.Even that means true politician in a lot
(28:00):
of ways, is that politicians wantto act. All of them want to
act like they're blazing trails, andI'm like, let's not blaze trials,
let's fix the ones we already have. But they, you know, there's
just pressure to it. And it'sinteresting. So fifteen years not quite fifteen
years ago, when the Rod Blagoyevitchsituation went down in Chicago where he was
(28:26):
Obama was moving on out and hewas putting the Senate seat sort of up
for sale. Basically, I happenedto be in the audience at the John
Stewart The Daily Show when he wasthe guest there, and psychologically fascinating to
(28:47):
me because at the time I wasworking at the prison as well, and
so I spent a lot of timearound sociopaths, and they're there, they're
they're a common breed. And andlike you want, say you're a neurosurgeon,
to be a sociopath, you don'twant them to be too empathic or
too nervous. You want them tobe cold and flat. Your next door
(29:10):
neighbor maybe not so much. Maybeyou want your next door neighbor to care
about you a little bit more.A lot of politicians are very sociopathic.
They they're very they say the rightthing, and they've got this glibness.
But the next level is what Isaw in Blagueyevitch was that you could watch
him. He believed his own words. He wasn't just telling lies or casting
(29:33):
about like. He was saying thingswith such conviction that I was like,
I could hook that guy up toa lie detector right now and he would
pass with flying colors because he believesit. That's how you you know,
that's the trick of how you passa lie detector is first of all,
you take a blood pressure medication andthen you believe your words. You don't,
you don't lie to it. It'snot about lying it. It's about
(29:56):
speak with conviction and and that Ithink there's something about that, you know,
to be a founding father. Ithink that has such a there's this
cachet to that usually we think aboutlike what we put them up on this
pedestal, up on this mountain,How here we go. We're gonna we're
gonna carve away indigenous lands to putthese these faces on it, and we
(30:21):
we we revere that. But thereality is there's kind of got to be
something wrong with you if you wantto rule the world. Yeah, um,
forgive me right for a Seinfeld reference. But wasn't it George Costanza who
said it's not a lie if youbelieve, if you believe it, Jerry,
I don't know you can take Greateefull credit for it. I don't
(30:41):
remember, but yeah, he wasgoing to take a lie detector test,
and George was a notoriously good liar, and he was trying to teach him,
if you believe it, it's nota lie to the to the machine.
But I almost wish I hadn't saidthat, because your point about it
just made bells and whistles go off, because that's exactly Thomas Jefferson. He's
(31:04):
a he is a He's not apsychopath, but he's a he's a what
did you call book sociopath. They'rethe same thing, a psychopath and aeopath.
It's the same basic thing. Thedifference is that a psychopath cannot hide
it. Okay, So he ThomasJefferson, on top of being a complete
(31:26):
a hole, was a sociopath.And there the pattern of his life is,
it's over and over again, andwhat he does with the mech deck.
He wrote a letter back to JohnAdams saying, well, I don't
know what you're talking about. I'venever heard of these people, I've never
read this document. And everything inthat letter was just a complete bull faced
(31:48):
lie. And Jefferson just had notrouble because he was allowed to say those
things and nobody would ever question him. And in fact, one of the
reasons why the mech deck disappeared andhasn't been more well known is that people
just said how the defense was justhow dare you question Thomas Jefferson. End
of discussion. But I'll tell youI think you'll find this interesting. One
(32:10):
of the most sociopathic episodes with ThomasJefferson. He was at monte Cello and
when the British they got to Charlottesvilleand there was a regiment was dispatched to
Monticello to capture Jefferson for Cornwallis.I think it was for the King's birthday.
(32:30):
They were going to give the KingJefferson for his birthday. Jeff you
do mean right? I you know, I got a barbecue grill for my
birthday. So, but Jefferson takesoff, he manages to escape, like
just a couple of minutes before theBritish the soldiers get there. One of
(32:52):
the one of the British soldiers Cox'spistol points it at one of Jefferson's slaves
and says, tell me which wayhe went, what direction? And the
slave said, go ahead and shoot, like I won't tell you, I
won't tell you where he is.So Jefferson learns that his life was essentially
saved by this slave, and justa few weeks later is when Jefferson sat
(33:17):
down and wrote all that horrific raciststuff in notes on the State of Virginia,
and so he and about how inferiorblack people were and about how you
can't mix the races and just allthis terrible racist stuff that I don't even
want to repeat right now, butpeople should look it up. It's it's
(33:37):
it's horrific. But the fact thathe wrote that days after his life was
just saved by someone who was blacktells you everything you need to know about
this particular sociopath. And you know, and it's it's it's it's like dealing
with kids. You know, Ihave four kids, which is too many,
(33:58):
but I oh, we always tryto explain to them, like,
look, it's not about the screwup. It's everybody skips a class or
breaks a plate, or you know, hits their brother or whatever, like
all of these things happen. You'rewithin Listen, I trust me. I've
dealt without people who are without normalrange. You're within normal range. It's
(34:22):
fine. Just the point is,when she's gotten caught, don't lie because
I won't get mad at you forscrewing up, but I'll get mad at
you for lying because the lie ison purpose. And still, of course,
kids being kids, they have totest it and they have to still
tell lies, and they do terribleat it. I'm like, if you're
gonna lie, at least tell agood lie. You know. No,
(34:44):
I didn't eat that moment, andlike the rapper is right there at your
feet, like, don't just don'tat least be a good liar, you
know something. But there's that thingabout digging in and being so sort of
weak morally and brittle that you can'tadmit. Yeah, no, I'm not
just a genius that wrote this allby myself and had just seen you know,
(35:07):
the war going on. Like Ilook, I did the best of
good with what I had. Ithought it's pretty good at thanks, like
moving on to not be able todo that is when he had every he
had every out there, you know, that makes for a fascinating you know,
and you just I I whenever Ihear bad things about famous people,
(35:29):
whether they are politicians or celebrities orcreators or whatever, it always rolls around
to the I just want to Ijust want to know, I just want
to know who it is that I'mlooking at, who it is that I'm
dealing with, and then then I'lldecide do I want to continue to eat
food from this establishment or listen toa podcast by this person, Because sometimes
(35:53):
the answer is all right, yeah, you know, a big farm.
It is terrible, but I haveto be uncertain prescriptions or I die,
you know. So there's trade upsthere. But then there are other things
where it's like, you know what, there's no chicken sandwich in the world
that's good enough for me to bewilling to go to Chick fil A.
(36:15):
That's my line, you know,is that if if you you want that
chicken sandwich and that's your you drawyour own lines. That's cool, that's
fine. That's just where my lineis there. There are podcasters I know
who are fundamentally terrible human beings.It happens to the best of us.
Some of them will still listen totheir shows because sometimes you're kind of a
(36:38):
twisted person and you come out witha really good show. Still. Yeah,
you know, I just I tryto not you know, I don't
join their Patreon or I don't trynot to support them in other ways.
But it's like, look, thereare it's just about just knowing, just
just be right up front with whoand what you are, and that then
let me decide what I what Ido and don't consume. We I was
(37:00):
just on a trip with my family. My oldest daughter just graduated from college,
and we spent the time in thecar talking about this very topic about
can you enjoy the art if theartist is kind of a terrible person?
And I think you're probably too young. But the example I gave was the
Smiths. I love the Smiths.I mean, anybody my age you went
(37:24):
to college, you know, andand Morrissey has turned out to be the
just the worst human being in theworld. But you know, sometimes I
just got all this. Sometimes thereyou just need some Smiths songs. And
my daughter is a fan of MorganWallen, and you know, he's done
some terrible things. And so Ithink we fell on the side of you
(37:47):
can, to a certain extent enjoythe art separate from the artist. And
I think it's okay to you know, for I'm not trying. In the
book, I don't try, andI do discuss what Thomas Jefferson did write,
you know, the section of theDeclaration of Independence that he wrote about
(38:08):
getting rid of slavery, which wasedited out. It's incredible and it's very
strong and powerful and moving language,and it's too bad it didn't make the
final document. But all credit dueto him for at least writing those words
and supporting it in that way.And and you know, he built the
(38:29):
University of Virginia, and he wasvery you know, his stance about freedom
from religion and freedom separation of churchand state very admirable. So I think,
like a lot of people, youknow, we're not all and our
heroes and our politicians and our foundersand our favorite musicians are not all good
(38:53):
or all bad. Thomas jeff Jeffersonexactly the same way. He's we're all
a little bit of both right onany given day. And I think the
air the mistake and you bring itup right, it's a really good point.
Is um, we put them onthis pedestal where they we think they
have to be perfect, and theyshouldn't be. We should be able to
(39:15):
we should learn everything about somebody andjust sort of understand them in context.
I think that's that's your point isreally really well taken on that well,
and they you know. A morerecent parallel is a couple of years ago,
I was talking to a sadly formerpodcaster. They they had to shut
(39:39):
the showdown, which is terrible becauseI love them. But my friend Jesse
is a defense attorney and she frequentlyrepresents sensitive crimes, right, and this
was all right when R. Kellywas first starting to realize what a a
(40:00):
legitimately terrible person he is. AndI was like, all right, Jesse,
so you tell me, because youknow, clinical forensic psychologists and defense
attorneys often kind of sometimes we're theonly people that are sitting in the courtroom
going wait, this is still ahuman being. Okay, Like, yeah,
he did some really bad stuff,and we need to pay attention to
(40:22):
the bad stuff he did and weneed to adjudicate that. But he's got
a mom and he maybe does origamior he can sing or something, and
so like, let's just keep itall in context and then we decide big
picture, you know. And shesaid, she's like, big picture,
if he's guilty of which since thenwe know, yes, he's been bound
(40:44):
guilty of it. At the time, she was like, if he's guilty
of this stuff, he's he's foundguilty of I'm still going to listen to
Ignition on my way to work outbecause it's a good workout song. And
she's like, I'll just listen toit and I'll swear about it at the
time, and I'm like, that'sthat's totally fair. I feel like that's
a that's a good balance, youknow. It's it's just knowing, you
(41:07):
know. And I don't want toknow everything about everybody, like I would,
I would back off there, becauseI think that's what our social media
world is doing right now, iswe all just have this word vomit in
the moment, reflexively or impulsively,without having time to like hang on and
(41:29):
think two seconds before you hit publish. But no, the big deal is
to be the first one to reply, or the first one to post,
or the first one to announce something. And so I don't want to know
everything about everybody at all times.But if you choose to live a life
in the public eye, be consistentbecause what bothers me is not flaws,
(41:52):
what bothers me is disappointment, youknow. And I talk to a lot
of you know, a lot ofmy my my especially mom friends, but
parent friends who struggle, especially withtheir first kid, about I lost my
temper, I screamed at them today, I swore at them or whatever.
And I had my first kid attwenty two, so I have older children
(42:15):
than most of my compatriots do.And my answer to them has always been,
like, good, let them seeyou have laws, Let them see
you screw up. Let them seemom and dad fight. You just also
then have to let them see youapologize and fix the breakage and recover and
(42:37):
get up again after, Like youhave to let them see the whole thing.
Like that's be consistent because you know, for me, I grew up
in a generation where you know,you didn't know your parents. You didn't
you didn't really get to see.You only saw occasional glimpses of what their
real sense of humor was, orwhat their music was or whatever it's.
(43:00):
It was a very different from me, like the separation, you know,
front seat, back seat the car, and my parents would have a conversation
in the front seat and I'd bein the back seat, and I had
nothing to do with me no matterwhat, you know. And it wasn't
until I was an adult where Ireally looked at each of my parents and
saw some really problematic flaws, andon the one on my dad's side,
(43:23):
it was a mental illness deal,which I wish i'd known. I wish
I had known more of I wishI had known more ways to help or
reach out or just understand him,because I was just terrified of him growing
up. It wasn't until I wasan adult and I was like, oh,
oh, you're not a complete jerk. That's actually a huge relief.
(43:45):
You know, it wasn't me.You didn't hate me. What a relief.
My mother is more toxic, notin a mental illness way, but
just a narcissistic in an unhealthy way. But again, I know that until
I was an adult and I becamean adult and I started to see this
and got out of that mode oflike, well, that's just what moms
(44:07):
do and realized, no, no, that's not how it has to be.
And seeing that, I think,I feel like it was such a
disappointment to realize she had a choiceand didn't have to be that way,
you know, And when I didcall her on it finally a couple of
years ago, of like, look, this has got to stop. Boundaries.
We're going to do some boundaries now, because now she was starting to
(44:29):
be enact similar behaviors to my childrenthat she had done to me, and
I was like, you can beatup on me all day long if you
want, but you don't, youdon't go after my kids. And I
was like, here's the boundaries.And her response was I am not going
to follow those boundaries, so youdon't get to do that. And I
was like, okay, we're betterto know we're done. And so my
children don't know their grandmother and I'mgoing to try really hard to be fair
(44:53):
and remember to tell them the funnystories and the good stories and let them
have happy memories too. But man, warts and all, and this was
a real big war. Is thatyou know, there's some people, some
relationships can't be fixed. But thepoint is just that that that disappointment,
that crash is so much harder.I think if you held somebody on a
(45:15):
pedestal and you thought of them isperfect, and then suddenly you learn like,
oh no, this isn't just thatyou like snore or chew with your
your mouth open. This is thisis not just like you use the wrong
salad for it, Like this isa big flaw and it's so much harder
to learn that I feel, thanto absorb it and make decisions and maintain
(45:38):
balance better. I'm I'm moving ingesturing because you can't quite find the right
word. So it's an audio podcast, and so people at home can just
picture me sort of flailing around alittle. That's that's accurate. Is that
it's just hiding the flaws. Don'tdo that. Yeah, And I think,
oh, the gestures you're making.I think all the Jefferson scholars were
(46:02):
making those up until about two thousand, when the DNA evidence made it absolutely
certain that while telling people not tomix races, he was carrying on an
affair with one of his slaves andhaving six children of mixed race. So
and I think you are right.I think it's interesting when we accept those
(46:27):
I think it's so much it's easierto because I have a parent who was
very similar and a parent who hada very similar reaction when I finally said
enough is enough. So it mustbe some kind of it must be some
characteristic of that kind of personality.When you call their bluff and they have
no other options, that's when theyjust say I'm done. But that's a
(46:51):
different, a different answer. ButI do think and you'd be interesting to
get your take on this is thata lot of people with Jefferson when you
learn about what he did with SallyHemmings, when you learn about um you
know the fact that he kept hisown children enslaved, and that he had
six hundred and seven slaves and heonly freed two of them during his lifetime,
(47:15):
and when he terrorized his friend's wives, and when he plagiarized the Declaration
of Independence. Most people's reactions area little bit like our parents. They
were just like, Nope, Idon't, I don't want don't, I'm
not I don't even I'm not interestedin even learning that stop right now.
Instead of it's really interesting, It'salmost like a defense mechanism, right,
(47:37):
It's like, don't tell me that. I don't want source notes, I
don't want facts. I want tothink of Jefferson the way I think of
him. It's it's I understand nowhow you were connecting these two things,
and it's very similar. People arejust like, Nope, don't tell me,
I don't I don't even want toknow, and I don't know.
How do you reach those people?Like, how do you reach those readers?
(48:00):
You almost can't ast you almost can't. I think that it takes more
strength to be flexible and to bevulnerable than it does to scream, and
so a lot of people go forthe easy way and they're just going to
scream with their yes, no,right wrong approach, and so then all
I can do is offer the information, you know, and that's I feel
(48:24):
like being a forensic psychologist put mein a unique position to be able to
tolerate the screaming and the yelling thathappens online. Now because I worked in
New Hampshire and I was an employeeof the state. So some states you're
hired either by the prosecution or thedefense, and then you got pressure to
(48:45):
come up with certain answers, rightfor is this person competent to stand trial?
Or what is their diagnosis or whatever. In New Hampshire, I was
an employee of the state, andso I didn't care when I went into
testify about a given case, andI would say, this is these are
the steps I took to reach thisdiagnosis, and so this is what I
(49:09):
think about this person's competency now andat the time of the of the event.
And then I got off the standand it was sort of like leave
it at the door, like Idon't. It's not up to me.
I'm paid either way. I didmy job either way. And that allowed
for a flexibility of thought without pressure, you know. So that so that
(49:31):
it allowed me to see the humanityin a criminal and also to look at
a human and be like, youdid some really bad stuff, like please
stay where you like to do both, And I think a lot of us
are. We feel like it's easierto yell and shout and say no than
(49:52):
it is to be flexible and vulnerable. And the biggest vulnerability for most humans,
which is sad, is to sayI don't know, and people won't
want to do that. I don'tconfront me with something that's gonna make me
think there's a that there. Italked to somebody who as a sociologist,
(50:13):
I think about why why people areso once they have Jefferson or other parts
of history locked in, they're sounwilling to sort of open those things up
and learn new things and and uh, you know, and why we only
have capacity for five or six detailsabout these these really important parts of our
(50:35):
country's founding. But I can rememberthe lyrics to every you know, every
hip hop song, from from fromgrowing up, and and it's just,
um it has I thought there wouldbe more confrontation with this book. But
you're right. I mean, Ithink the approaches I'm not taking any great
pleasure in showing you the true fullstory of Thomas Jefferson. I'm not sort
(51:00):
of reveling in it and making funand sort of I think this is hilarious.
It's it's I'm suffering, not suffering. I'm you know, it's this
is as hard for me to learnas it is for the reader. And
I think that's why, Um,there hasn't been more, not backlash,
but um that it's just kind oflike, look, I'm giving you the
information. That's the least I cando, and what you do with it
(51:22):
is is really up to you.Um. But now I'm realizing that from
our earlier conversation that my dad andThomas Jefferson's shared a lot of the same
personality training. It's like, ohno, you can just build me for
the therapy. It's fine, youknow, it's but it's there is something
(51:43):
about it's comforting to say this ismy world, whether it's the political world
or I mean you think about likethere have been there's a there's a I
can't. I can't start statistics exceptto stay that it's is a bizarrely huge
number of acts of violence that happenover the surveys of people's property lines.
(52:09):
And you're talking like six inch difference, you know, is it this side
of the tree or that side ofthe tree, or you know that kind
of thing, and like acts ofviolence between people who have lived peaceably side
by side for twenty years and suddenlythey learned that that foot of grass is
mine, not yours, and theylose it. And I think there's just
(52:32):
something about we want to tell ourselvesthat I only have to learn it once,
and once I've learned it, Ican put it in its little slot
and it sits there and it's onits bookshelf, and we're good. And
the answer is that's not how lifeworks. Like you if you start with
a hundred books and you can putthem in alphabetical order, and that's fine.
(52:52):
Now you get a new book,where do you put it? Because
if you actually put it in thecorrect contextual eye slot, other books are
now in a different place in line. And for some people that's really hard
to flex with. Yeah, andyou're seeing that in the response to the
book, right, I think thepeople with the personality of like my mind's
(53:14):
a sponge, fill it up,just keep you know, I keep filling
it up, and I'll wring itout and fill it up again. And
I want to learn as much asI can. And I think that's a
much more healthy way to approach thesekinds of things. And there have been
people who are like, Nope,don't nope. I've got Jefferson locked in.
He's carved on Mount Rushmore. I'mnot going to change my opinion.
(53:37):
And like you said, it's almostyou just have to almost skip over those
people and try and reach the peoplethat you can. And again, it's
all fascinating, that's the thing.Whether you agree or disagree or don't like
it, it's still fascinating. Andit's incredible how much of our country's history
and are very founding as a democracywe don't know. It's like we access
(54:00):
ten percent of our brain or whatever. It is. The same goes for
American history. And so are youworking on the next thing? We do
we get it hinto the next thing? Or are you just gonna wait for
the next road? Signed to smackyep side the head yeah, I think
(54:22):
I'm still having so much fun,sort of like being in this world.
And yeah, I am slowly crawlingout of this rabbit hole that I've been
in for two years. And Idon't necessarily want to leave because I kind
of live for these kinds of storiesand these kind of crazy adventures. But
yeah, I've got different ideas andthey'll probably it'll probably next time it'll maybe
(54:46):
I'll it'll be more sports related,same kind of crazy, unexplained, bizarre
story that nobody else would dare touch. Those are the perfect stories for me.
But maybe I maybe I'll be donewith the Jeffersonians and move on to
the NFL or something. I havealways been an unabashed nerd. I love
(55:20):
history and science and math. Youknow, I did marry a math guy,
but history specifically. I love learningthings like this. I love fleshing
out the details and yeah, wartsand all. I mean, we're talking
to a forensic psychologist right here.Like I appreciate all facets of humanity,
(55:45):
even when they're weird or darker,incorrect. So it makes me wonder,
you know, what else am Iwrong about? What else are we collectively
wrong about? I think it matters, so David, thank you so much
(56:06):
for coming to play. That wasso fun and so interesting, and you
know, full disclosure, not toolong ago I had somebody come on whose
pitch was political or political adjacent innature as well, and that one was
(56:28):
difficult for me. It wasn't awful, and I released the episode, but
it was harder. It made metentative because I don't vet my guests that
deeply. I don't weed someone elsejust because their politics don't match mine,
(56:50):
even if that's what we're going totalk about. And so when I read
the title of your book and readyour email, I was like, oh,
oh, I hope this is notanother case of someone telling me that
I'm wrong, because you know alot of people do that, and I
(57:14):
don't want it today, not today. And so I was so thrilled that
you and I saw eye to eyeand that was just a delight and absolute
delight. Please come back and play. I'll even talk sports with you.
And I told you I'm a terriblesports wife. So this is saying something.
(57:37):
Thank you guys for listening. Ifyou're listening to this around the time
of release, then what the hellhappened on Twitter this weekend? Right like
I know, I know what happened. It broke even more. More parts
fell off this horrible broken machine,and people are scattering. So I'm going
(58:05):
to say this. I'm still onTwitter and I'm going to stay there until
the bitter end because I cannot resista good train wreck. That being said,
I'm at iWB podcast on all ofthe social medias that I know of
that includes blue Sky and Spoutable,as well as Instagram, Facebook, masted
(58:30):
on post wherever I can think ofto grab the user name. I won't
use Hive. I don't even knowif it's still active, but I have
problems with the developers, not personalproblems, but like you know, otherwise,
I keep grabbing the user name andI'm just sort of in this liminal
(58:54):
space of waiting to see where peoplego and what happens next. I'm super
bitter about it because back in myday, I could use Twitter to promote
the podcast and Facebook to engage withlisteners, and then that was basically it.
(59:15):
And now there's so many different platformsand each of them has their pros
and cons, and just get offmy lawn. This is why we can't
have nice things, you know.Anyway, My point to you the listener
(59:36):
right now is that I'm around.I'm maintaining as much availability as I can
think to maintain, and if youneed to reach me somewhere and I'm not
on that platform, let me know. iWB Podcast at gmail dot com.
(01:00:00):
Mostly I hibernate in my Discord serverevery day, and I still use my
Facebook group several days a week.I just don't like the censorship aspect of
Facebook, so I'm not there asoften as I used to be. But
still I'm maintaining a presence in asmany places as possible until we all figure
(01:00:25):
out what next. I'm even onReddit, but I don't have a subreddit
or anything like that because I'm notgoing to start one and nobody else has.
So whatever the point is iWB podcasteverywhere that I know of, and
just hang in there. We'll findeach other. Okay, I won't stop
(01:00:50):
the podcast, and I'm not deletingaccounts right now. It was wild this
weekend watching people really in legitimate distressas Twitter was down, and they realized
that was a bedrock of their socialcommunity. And that's what people don't understand,
(01:01:14):
Like the cool thing to do isto complain about the downsides of social
media. But the upsides are itprovides a lot of people with a social
outlet they cannot get any other wayin their life. And if you take
it away, it's not like they'resuddenly going to go run around and climb
trees and hang out with their friends. And I'm talking about full grown adults
(01:01:35):
rather than just kids, but kidstoo. There are lots of people of
all ages who have no outlet outsideof social media. Also, creators rely
so heavily on it. This ishow we find people, and when you
take the platform away, we don'tknow what to do. We just want
(01:01:58):
you to hear what we may aid. We just want to share that without
necessarily diving into the complexities and politicsof social media. So anyway, I
am aware that you guys are outthere. I am trying to stay as
available as possible, and even whenthe wheels are falling off, you matter one
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!