July 7, 2023 • 57 mins
Sometimes the things we think will be the easiest -- relationships, communication, empathy -- actually take a lot of work.
Guest: Figs O'Sullivan, empathi.com
....................
Promo: Don't Wreck Yourself
Disclaimer: E.T.
Art: Julia
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
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Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Sponsor: Horrific Hope Film Festival 2024 (code bliss24 for 15% off submission)
Guest: Figs O'Sullivan, empathi.com
....................
Promo: Don't Wreck Yourself
Disclaimer: E.T.
Art: Julia
Music: Jake Pierle -- https://jakepierle.bandcamp.com/
....................
Ignorance Was Bliss online: https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast
Sponsor: Bath By Bex (code CBDkate for 25% off)
Sponsor: Komuso Design (code bliss15 for 15% off)
Sponsor: Horrific Hope Film Festival 2024 (code bliss24 for 15% off submission)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:20):
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(00:43):
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seven three eight two five five.You matter, Hey, this is Kate.
(01:14):
How do you get good at somethingand then how do you let yourself
admit that you're good at it?It's harder than you think, Like,
I don't know if you're a mediocrewhite guy maybe everything comes easy to you,
but for the rest of us itcan be a struggle. When we
(01:36):
have ideas and goals and hobbies anddreams, whether it's career based or hobby
based, whatever, it can bereally hard to get good at it.
And sometimes it doesn't matter all thatmuch. You know, I'm not good
(01:59):
at gymnastics, never have been.My whole life, never turned to cartwheel.
That's okay. I've never lost ajob over it or whatever. I've
absorbed with that about myself and wemove on. And it's just as well
now because medically I'm not supposed todo that kind of thing. But I
was really good at being a forensicpsychologist doing assessments, at connecting with people.
(02:31):
I'm really good at connecting with peoplestill. Now I'm really good at
knitting. I've created some stuff I'mreally proud of. I can say that
now I'm pretty solid in it.But that took practice all by itself.
(02:51):
Just saying I'm good at things tookpractice because in our society, women aren't
especially encouraged to admit when we're goodat things or to take compliments. But
next level is I wasn't a goodpsychologist upfront. It took work my first
(03:14):
knitting project we still have. Wecall it the Ugly Blanket, and we
call it that for a reason.So sometimes it matters more than others,
right, And if you work,as say, for instance, a therapist,
(03:35):
it matters a lot. You reallyneed to put your heart and soul
into it. I'm not great attherapy, but if I had to,
if someone said you can no longerdo assessments, you can no longer work
in the er, you have todo therapy, then the type of therapy
(03:59):
I was the best stat was couplestherapy. I'm good at dealing with the
dynamic between two people rather than tryingto climb inside one person's head. And
then this was the hard part forme, being patient while they worked their
stuff out. My guest today isa practicing couples therapist, also a podcaster.
(04:27):
His show is called Come Here toMe. His name is Figgs O'Sullivan,
and this is one of those sortof nerd out episodes where we had
just enough in common that we geteach other's vibe and lingo and jargon when
it comes up, that sort ofthing. But he is really good at
(04:53):
couples therapy and has stayed there andfocused his efforts and his skills there.
For me, I did it becauseI had to get my degree and then
I moved on. So it givesus some dynamics to talk about and some
perspectives to examine and see, Okay, what do we have in common and
(05:18):
what are we not? Are yousure you really want to know? This
is ignorance? Was bliss? Myname is Figs O'Sullivan. I am primarily
(06:02):
a psychotherapist and I specialize in couplestherapy and I run a group psychotherapy practice
and coaching practice for individuals and coupleswith my wife. Teal is her name.
And yeah, so everything we dowith between an app, We built
(06:23):
a podcast, we have offering counselingand coaching online courses and we just try
and help people love each other.What is the name of the app on
the podcast? Well, our mainbusiness on the website is empathy with an
eye on the end, not aY on the end dot com. I
always tell people we couldn't afford empathywith a y on the end dot com.
(06:46):
Empathy is expensive. Empathy Empathy isexpensive, exactly. Um so,
so yeah, so empathy dot comis where everything is and our podcast is
called come here to Me podcast,which is an Irish expression. Compared to
me, we use a lot.And you said before I record that your
(07:08):
I mean you make your podcast superpersonal. Yes, we do. Yeah,
the first fourteen episodes or so ofthe show, my wife and I
are actually sharing our own personal we'rea couple of therapists, but we also
have shared our own personal couples therapysessions with us as the clients, and
(07:33):
you know, we would do thecouple of therapy session, watch it back,
work out what the learnings were forus, what we think would be
valuable for the audience, clip thepart of the therapy session, and put
the intro and outro. It wasa lot of work, you know,
but so so now we usually justtalk to each other and we use the
(07:58):
you know, the camera and themic and as the therapist, like you
know, because it was taking itwas two We would love to have kept
producing the podcast that particular way,but each episode was like twenty or thirty
hours of work. It was toomuch, right you know. Um,
(08:18):
well yeah, but we still westill you know, release episodes and it's
wonderful for our relationship, and youknow, the whole point of it is
to normalize, like even couples therapistssupposed experts, relationship takes work, and
you know, we have feelings andwe get in conflict with each other and
we have to repair and you know, just to actually model versus just you
(08:41):
know, tell people what to do, which I think is super important.
I mean, you know, I'ma forensic psychologist by trade, largely because
I'm terrible as a therapist. Likeas an individual therapist, you're not patient,
and you know, there's a patiencethat is required to set the pain
that pulls the client along, maybea little farther or faster than they were
(09:05):
going to but not so fast thatit makes them uncomfortable. And I don't
do that. Like I'm very sortof driven, and I like going into
work and not knowing what's going tohappen today. I like not setting benchmarks.
I don't want to say goals,because I think everybody needs goals,
but I like not setting benchmarks andmeaning like, Okay, this is what
(09:28):
I want to aim for today,and instead, you know, with forensic
work as well as I later didcrisis work, you never have any idea
what they're going to hit you upsidethe head with that day, and so
that was my thing. But Idid enjoy, out of all of the
types of therapy you have to dowhen you're going through your doctorate and you
have to do you different practica andinternships, I did enjoy couples therapy the
(09:48):
most because you're no longer operating forme inside the person's head, but you're
operating in this space between the twopeople and everyone can see it and everyone
can hear it, and there's noIt's not that there's no secrets, because
we all have them and they stillexist. But if at any point there's
(10:09):
a question of did you see whatI just saw it? Did did I
see that correctly? You can askthat in a different way, whereas when
it's individual you can say did Imisunderstand you? And they can say no,
that's it, and you're kind ofat the end, yeah, yeah,
well that's I like couples canceling formany of the reasons you just said
you don't like being an individual therapistis so always different. You can't have
(10:33):
an agenda, right The couple aregoing to, you know, take you
where they're going to take you,and you have to be able to be
present too and be willing to becomeall of the systems in the session.
And so there's you as an individual, there's each client as an individual,
(10:54):
there's the two clients together, there'syou and each individual client, and there's
the three of you together, andso you know, it's it's just a
lot to track and be present too. And it's usually activating because you know,
couples are usually in what would youcall it, you know, they're
(11:15):
feeling threatened with each other, andso it's activating we all we kind of
say, and the type of workI do with couples, all couples work
as trauma work, so there's alwaystrauma in the room. So you know,
I often compare it to I'm afirefighter that runs into five or six
burning buildings a day, and thenwhen I get into the burning building,
(11:37):
the two people that I'm trying tohelp get out of there are like they
actually want to keep pouring fire onthemselves and each other and they don't want
to leave, right, So soyeah, it's always exciting, and you
know there's just you and you cannever dial it in, right. What
part of I often compare it to, which is very I think I quite
different from a lot of therapists.I think of what I do as a
(11:58):
perform art or like being a professionalathlete, that once the bell rings or
the curtain comes up on Broadway,it doesn't matter how tired I am.
It doesn't matter how I feel like. I have to show up like a
thousand percent. And that's exhilarating.I love it, so yeah, I
(12:20):
mean it is. It is.You know. One of the things that
I like about couples therapy as wellis with an individual firstal with groups,
that's tough. I have a hardtime with groups, mostly because the people
who most often seek groups may notseek it for therapeutic reasons. They may
(12:41):
be seeking friendship, they may beseeking connection in the community, and by
definition, group therapy is not aboutthat in general. It's that you're not
supposed to go home with these peopleand check in with them because they're separate
things. This is a healing place, and maybe you learn skills to pick
(13:03):
up friends and learn social skills,but group therapy isn't it, And in
explaining that to people seems tough.It seems hard, especially because a lot
of the things that they they beingInsurance approve group for things like eating disorders
and substance abuse, and those arepotentially dangerous things to have ideas pulled together
(13:28):
about. So that was always alittle iffy, and I did and there
were some that were like you know, parenting groups. Those can be great,
very educational in nature, conflict resolutionkinds of situations where they're short term.
Those were flying. I didn't haveany problem doing those. But when
people just sort of show up likeI just want to be in therapy,
(13:52):
like, oh, oh no,you don't. You want friends. I
understand it. I want friends too, but this is not But with individual
therapy as well, to me,it always took a little while to figure
out what do we really here forand is therapy really Am I the right
(14:13):
therapist? And is therapy really theright thing for you right now at this
time in your life. But withcouples therapy, everything is very clear.
There's usually an event or an issue. I don't like the word issue because
it's sort of vanilla, but there'ssomething, there's some identical, identifiable,
(14:35):
if not tangible, then at leastclear, demonstrable thing that these people are
looking at saying that's not cool.We need help here, And that's just
a really great sort of starting place. Plus it's very clear. I always
told the people that I worked with, the couples that I work with,
specifically our first session and maybe evenour session second session. The goal is
(14:58):
not to start working on the identifiedproblem. The goal is to decide if
we should work on the identified problemat all. Because not all couples should
be together, not all relationships shouldlast forever. And let's talk about that.
Let's talk about that possibility that maybewhat we are doing is learning how
(15:20):
to safely end this relationship. Notbecause I think it's I don't have anything
preconstructed in my head that this ishow it's going to be, but just
to sort of put that on thetable for people, that this is an
option that we don't like to talkabout. And it's a lot of people
when they show up for a coupleof therapy, they're saying, no,
no, I'm here to fix everything. I want to be together forever.
(15:41):
And it's like, well, okay, I accept that as a that's a
valid goal, but let's talk aboutthe fact that some relationships are not safe
to be in and some can't sustainAnd I just I like the clarity and
the openness of that. And thenyou kind of go from there, let
me see from there. And sothat's just I don't know if that's a
(16:06):
thing for everybody, but I likethe ability to be very clear and very
open and very direct and to havethat immediate feedback loop. I hear you,
Yeah, I mean you know itwouldn't be you know, I hear
what you're saying. To leave it. Oh, like, make sure people
know that not being together as anoption. You know. What I would
(16:30):
say is in an idea world,I try not to be the person that
brings in, you know, likethat as a potential outcome. Right at
last, the people first, whatis it that you know, the couple,
what is it that they would liketo achieve or accomplish? And it's
not for me to actually direct themtowards, you know, an outcome like
(16:59):
one of you know what, whyI look at my role as a couple
OF's therapist as I'm a process consultant, So I am a process to I'm
a consultant to their process, butI'm not a creator of their process.
I would fully agree with I mean, i'd have said it correctly that it's
never about my agenda with the couple, But I always felt like it was
(17:25):
important and unique within couples therapy thatI could say this is on the table
as well. You know this elephantthat's in the room that we don't talk
about in many other situations. Youknow that is a possibility. And if
we reach a consensus that that's thedirection this needs to head in, I
can still be a part of that. I can still help safely end as
(17:51):
amicably as possible a relationship that isn'tworking. It's not up to me one
way or another, because we allknow they're gonna go home and they're gonna
do what they want to do.And so it's more about the just the
opportunity to be maybe more transparent thanI can be one on one. I
hear you. That makes sense whatyou're saying. Do you get feedback from
(18:14):
people along the lines of what doyou mean you had to go to therapy?
Aren't you a therapist? Why wouldyou need to go to therapy?
No? I don't. I haven'theard that, but I could imagine some
people could think like that. Butthis is where like it's a good you
know, there's a instead of thinkingabout therapy is just something inside the medical
(18:38):
model that people do because there's somethingwrong. I like to think of therapy
is a vehicle that brings people intotheir aliveness. Right, It's just one
vehicle. Well, like dance wouldbring people into their aliveness poetry, I
don't know whatever inspires you, andtherapy is just a way to be curious
(19:03):
about yourself, notice what you're feeling, thinking what you're sensing, and actually
be present to it and alive insideof that. And then of course with
a couple that they both could bepresent to their own moment to moment experience
inside of themselves, but also whatthat experiences that they're co creating with each
other. And like that in andof itself has inherent value. To become
(19:29):
more of yourself, to know moreof your partner, and to become more
of who you are together. It'sjust inherently valuable, right. It's not
because there's something wrong with you ortrying to fix something. It's like why
make a pot and pottery class?Right, Like, sure you could do
(19:49):
it so that you could pour milkin it, but it might be just
inherently valuable to get to be youand create a posh even if it has
it's never used again. Right,So I look at there like I think
of myself as a crassperson. I'man artist and that my medium is I
(20:10):
help people have experiences, transformational experienceswhere they get to become more truly themselves
and in that process they yeah,they grow as a person. But I
don't see sick people. It won'tbe very clear. I don't think of
myself, I don't think of myclients as patients. So so, yeah,
(20:33):
I get it. If someone thinksthat therapy is something that's sick.
People do write people that they havea problem and they need to go see
someone inside the medical model for help, which of course that exists, then
the question would make sense. Whywould you need therapy but doesn't know what
therapy means to me or the way. Yeah. Again, like I see
(20:56):
anybody that comes to see me,right, they're not sick, They're just
regular people like my human Yeah,exactly, exactly. Has there been times
during your marriage that you have notbeen in therapy? Yeah? Yeah,
I mean, oh absolutely, Yeah, so sort of an anora and the
reason that I asked that. SoI've been I've been married twenty two and
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change years now, and we've hadboth we've had times where we're not therapy
and times where we are, andnot all of the times that we have
been like I can think of twospecifically that come to mind, and one
where there was a problem and wehad kind of fallen into some habits that
weren't real healthy for each other andwe just we needed to talk it out.
(21:44):
And it was never a hey,this is over kind of feeling.
It would a hey, let's notlet this get to the point where it's
over kind of feeling. So thatto me feels like what most people think
of when they think of therapy islike something is either broken or on the
job. Let's let's fix it.And there was a time where that's what
we needed and that was a reallyshort term for us. We were only
(22:08):
maybe maybe three months about in thetherapy because really it was sort of just
a realignment and it was a comingback together and reidentifying what our priorities were,
you know, because if you know, I've said to my husband many
times, I'm not the person youmarried, and nor should I be.
(22:30):
You know, he married a twentytwo year old girl kid basically, and
now I'm forty five. There shouldbe things that are different. We've we've
had a lot of life in betweennow and then and so it's like a
tune up that one another time thatwe were in therapy. Nothing between us
(22:52):
had gone wrong. My husband andI were no actually was. It was
about two weeks after the of ourthird child, and so there was a
lot to celebrate, and there wasa lot of good going on, except
I had spent eight ten of thosedays in a comma. I had a
near death experience after the birth ofour child. And when I came out
of the comma, I had almostcomplete word aphasia, so I couldn't identify
(23:18):
simple obviously. I couldn't speak.I didn't remember people's names. I didn't
remember my own name. I hadinitially complete, almost complete amnesia. I
still have a retrograde amnesia for theyear leading up to the birth. I
just don't I've read my old blog, I've seen photos. I'm like,
oh, yeah, that was atrip to Paris that I took. Looks
like fun. I wish I wasthere, you know. And I was
(23:42):
still in the ICU. I hadcome out of the comma kind of against
all odds, and they had justtaken out the feeding tube and the ventilator,
and I remember one of the firstsentences that I said to my husband
as we need therapy. I couldn'teven articulate why at that point, but
what I could understand on a fundamentallevel was this everything has changed, and
(24:04):
not necessarily in a bad way,but we could use some help rather than
it being just us figuring all ofthis out all by ourselves. And I'm
still deeply grateful that he got itand he didn't take it personally and that
was sort of his job because Iwas in the hospital for another six weeks
so it was a while before wewere able to start. But he didn't
(24:26):
take that as me saying like I'mbroken, You're broken, everybody's broken.
Everything sucks and we're done. Hegot it is yeah, yeah, I
don't know what to do either.Let's try that. So I just I
feel like, and I know thatI had people at the time kind of
look look askew at me a littlebit about well, but you're you're you're
(24:48):
a psychologist, can't you just fixit? And I'm like, well,
doctors get sick, right, andthey know just they see doctors. So
it's like, I don't understand whyI'm supposed to be able to hand everything
completely. Then the reason I becamea psychologist because I believe in it,
because I believe in the concept ofbeing a better human being, and I
(25:11):
believe in the idea of tapping inwhether you feel unwell or not. We
go for annual physicals, why don'twe go for frequent checkups on therapy to
make sure? Right, Yeah,that makes sense. What kind of referrals
do you get typically when you sayreferrals, what do you mean? Just
(25:32):
to make sure I understand the question. How when people walk into your office,
under what circumstances do they do?So? Yeah, so we again,
like we primarily see couples, andwe primarily see couples, you know,
professional typically professional couples, and soyou know, they're they're working on
(25:53):
trying how to make a busy lifeschedule work, and how to stay connected
to each other. Had to behad to keep attending to the relationship while
also being parents, for example,or one person has to work eighty hours
a week. How does the otherperson in the relationship, You know,
(26:15):
they're not particularly happy that they don'treally have a spouse, right, so,
just like they would be examples.Sometimes there's been an affair of course,
you know, or other type ofbetrayal, like that, you know,
for people who are thinking, ohmaybe maybe we could go to therapy,
you know what kind of time commitmentand what's it like. Well,
(26:37):
so we typically see you know,we'd usually to see someone once a week
for sixty minutes a session. Andin an ideal world, the person would
be done within six months. Theperson in the couple would be done within
six months. And when I saydone, like they've gone through a process
(27:00):
of being able to understand what theirsystem is that they co create with each
other, be able to de escalatetheir nervous system limbic systems when they get
in conflict, and they be ableto feel more connected to each other and
ask after that very important, afterthat, be able to ask vulnerably for
(27:25):
one's needs to be met and showup and meet the needs of another.
And then once we've kind of gonethrough all of that, and a couple
can do all of that, thenthey can pretty much handle whatever life throws
at them. Are you still intherapy? When you say am I in
therapy? You mean me personally?You and your wife? Are you still?
Know? You are not? So? Nor are my husband and I.
(27:51):
Now, how did you know thatyou could fly solo? Well?
Look let me. Just like youknow when you ask how do we know
we could fly solo? I guessthis is where like, look, we
could have flien solo beforehand? Letme in some ways you could think about
what I do in therapy and whatmy wife and I try and do is
(28:15):
that we want to be more conscious. And what does that mean? More
conscious? Is that the simplest definitionof conscious is it's like something to be
something that is conscious, right.It is not like something to be the
table. It is like something tobe a human being. And I want
(28:36):
to be as close as possible tobeing a human being and as far away
as possible from being a table.And it's very simple. The better you
can answer that question what is itlike to be me? And the better
I can know what is it liketo be you? What is it like
to be us? And what therapyis? It's just a gym that you
(29:00):
go to to get even better atbeing able to answer just this one simple
question, what is it like tobe me? Right? And then of
course we can expand that question.Then if you get good, if you
get really good at answering the questionwhat is it like to be me?
You will have everything you need toactually understand and hopefully experience, right,
(29:22):
what is it like to be otherpeople? And then you combine those two
things together, you should have allthe material then to expand again into what
is it like to be the systemthat me and this other person co create
with each other. So so look, that's an ongoing process, right,
there's so much. You know,anyone that told you they know what it's
(29:47):
like to be them at any momentin time is having a laugh, right,
Like I have certain things I've accessto and I'm conscious of. But
so yeah, again, so that'slike there be just to expand one's ability
to be to answer that one question, what's it like to be me?
What's it like to be you?What's it like to be us together?
(30:08):
And then look we have we're attachmentfocused therapist, so we see absolutely everything
through the lens of attachment. Rightthat you know the most famous quota bet
attachment. We're all subjected. Itneeds to be attached slash emotionally bonded from
the cradle to the grave. Sowe're trying to help people fundamentally become more
(30:30):
conscious, but then help them understandwhat is attachment theory and then be able
to see their own feelings, thoughts, and actions and those of other people
in the world, especially they're significantother, you know, in themselves through
an attachment lens. Because once westart to understand attachment and we see what
(30:52):
we feel, do and think throughan attachment lens, everybody makes sense.
Everybody always makes sense. And thenthat changes everything, right, because then
we open up these pathways to haveempathy and compassion for ourself, our partner,
and dare I say it everybody inthe world, it's it's a practice,
(31:14):
right, rather than as a practiceexactly. Yeah, we practice therapy
in the way that people say practicemedicine in the say it's never done,
you're learning your whatever. They're justvery different things because medicine is a medical
model and a model of breakage anda model of something's wrong, and therapy
is more about we're going to practicefeeling more censured or more grounded, or
(31:40):
more yourself or whatever, you know, whatever sort of vocabulary works if people
come to therapy, because most ofyeah, look, most of the people
are going to come to a coupleof canceling because they think something is wrong.
But the thing that they think iswrong is actually a doorway or a
pathway to something that is incredibly right. Right. So, when a couple
is having a harder time with eachother, the reason they're having a hard
(32:02):
time with each other is their bodelonging for getting their deepest love needs,
emotional bonding needs met. It's nota woo woo thing. It's like when
you were born. If there wasn'ta good enough other on the other side
of your death, you'd be dead. Our bodies are built to detect is
my person there, and if they'renot there, you're facing an existential threat.
(32:27):
Now you may think you're not ababy anymore. You don't cry out
because your partner isn't here. You'renot crying out because it looks like they're
disappointed in you. But whether youhave conscious access to it or not,
your body is still really distressed.When it looks like your person no longer
your mother or you're you know,whoever looked after you growing up, but
you're primary romantic partner, significant other. When it looks like they're not there
(32:52):
for you, you're actually facing ahuge biological, physiological moment of distress.
And you protest because you're a humanbeing. We all protest. Whether you're
a blamer shut or downer, explainer, minimizer, defender, joker, you
know, run away or everybody doessomething, but of course your thing that
(33:15):
you do will now tell your significantother that they're not being loved the way
they long to be. And sonow they're about to experience an existential threat.
Whether they're conscious of it or not, that's the way their body will
take it. And now they're goingto hurt, feel threatened, and they'll
protest, and of course their protestswill confirm for you you're not being loved
(33:37):
the way you need to. Andso now you'll definitely protest the more,
which of course is going to threatenyour significant others some more. They're going
to be hurt, slash threatened,and they're going to have even more grounds
to double down or triple down ontheir type of protest. And that is
what happens between all systems of peoplethat love each other right, love each
(34:00):
other slash are important to each otherright that they both actually get threatened when
it looks like let's say a systemof two people, they get threatened when
it looks like we're not there foreach other the way we long for each
other to be there for each other'sthreatening, and then we bothe protests and
ways that threatens each other even more. And so the most important thing to
(34:22):
do when I work with a coupleis to help them see the system right
that they're bode co creating with eachother. And if we can help them
see that system and see that it'sreally happening because each other's love is so
important to each other. Now wego from being two threatened organisms to two
(34:43):
sad organisms, but two sad organismsthat aren't a threat to each other,
and then they can love, comfortand suit each other. In your I
don't know whether it's experience, youropinion, you can decide. Are all
relationships salvageable? No, I don't. I think they're all salvageable, But
I think the best way to discoverif it is salable. I think ninety
(35:06):
nine percent of them are salvageable.I think the person you're with is no
accident that you chose the person you'rewith. It's no accident they chose you.
You're trying to resolve something, andyour conflict is just the mat the
outward painful manifestation of both of youtrying to complete a missing experience, and
your organisms want to complete this missingexperience. Well, let's try and complete
(35:29):
the missing experience. If we doit in the best way we know with
science and the best psychotherapeutic models thatwe have available, and we fail,
that's brilliant data to now make yourdecision about whether we're going to actually be
able to salvage this relationship or not. But again, just like, how
(35:49):
do we know your car is goingto be able to run? Again?
What we try and make it run? And again if we fail to make
it run? Yeah, hey,listen, you can go to another mechanic.
But look, you read the use. You saw the methods I use,
Like, I don't know, youdecide, Like, I'm going to
give them the data to then decide. But I always say, I'm like
(36:10):
a pit bull with a lockjaw.I'm going to make sure that there's no
way they could leave all. Let'ssay they weren't able to salvage it in
their minds, it's not going tobe because we didn't try every single thing
to make it work. So I'mgoing to keep trying. What are things
(36:32):
that you would try? Well,again, you know the most important thing
is we have to be able tobe like three scientists and understand what is
the system we're both co creating witheach other that takes the two of us.
We both get hurt, we bothhave love needs, we both have
ways of protesting. We both thinkthe way we protest is actually our character
(36:53):
or personality. It's not what itis, but it's a secondary creation to
protect and help the most vulnerable partof you survive in the world. Both
of you are at it so asevery other human being. And if we
can help them firstly see and seethe logic of their system and then really
really get that there are two incrediblyvulnerable human beings here that are just protesting,
(37:17):
fighting for their life to try notto get hurt. And then we
can actually drop them into the experienceof that where they have a lot of
empathy and compassion for each other.The same problem exists, but they both
are so completely changed as individuals thatthey are either I'm going to march them
to the threshold of that experience wherethey it would be safe to share their
(37:43):
vulnerability with each other and to actuallycomfort and suit each other. Now,
then we'll come back to whatever thetopic is, and that's the most resource
they could be to deal whatever thetopic is. That was a big problem.
Right, So this is the problemsnever the problem. The way we
talk about the problem is the problemfully understood that you know, there's there
(38:07):
were times one of the one ofthe first couples I worked with, spoke
to each other in ways that feltjarring to me. A lot of swearing,
a lot of literal finger pointing,a lot of raised voices, that
kind of thing. And I wastwenty five at the time, twenty six
(38:29):
something like that, and so Ididn't have the full sort of ability to
realize that maybe this is just youknow, that my I hadn't worked through
my own distress at being in thepresence of raised voices and swearing and and
that kind of thing, and isto separate that out from therapy itself.
(38:50):
But so I just sort of letthem, you know, for the first
couple of sessions, let them speakhow they were going to speak. And
then you know, made tracks tomy supervisor and went, clearly, I'm
doing something wrong because these people arejust screaming at each other. And she's
like, maybe they're just screamers,Like maybe that's how they function. Listen
to what they're saying and then getto how they're saying it. Secondary,
(39:14):
like those are two Those are twoparallel situations. Both there's the what they're
saying and then there's how they're sayingit, and sort of over time realizing
that, you know, some couplesjust communicate in ways that I don't understand
or that I wouldn't be able toeffectively communicate if I was in that relationship.
But that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Well yeah, but let's just
(39:35):
say like there aren't there aren't reallyscreamers. There are people that scream when
they're not feeling mad in a particularway, And what's really happening underneath where
their look angry and they appear tobe a screamer, is there's some primary
love need that's not being mad,and they're in a lot of primary vo
(40:00):
unerable pain, and the only thingthey know to do is when when they're
being that feel that un met thatmuch on love, is to protest to
screaming and being angry. So insteadof thinking there's one person inside mister or
missus screamer and there's actually two peoplewho you see screaming is just the way
(40:24):
they've learned to protest and survive inthe world. I'm sure I'm going to
honor. I gotta honor mister ormissus screamer, right as in, like
you know, except that they areangry. This is what they do.
But I do that because I wantto earn the right to one day get
to know what is it you're notgetting and how does it hurt? Because
(40:47):
ultimately, the one that we needto help inside mister or missus screamer is
the one that I am still feelingabandoned. I'm still not a priority.
How is this happening again? Andthey're really hurting. They're having a really
hard time, right, that's theonly reason they're screaming. There are no
(41:07):
bad people in the world. Thereare no They're just doing the only thing
they know what to do. Sothis couple, I will reflect. Let's
imagine you have this couple, rightthat are both screaming at each other.
Right, Well, got to dois work out? Will help them when
I'll reflected to them at first?Right is what is try and work out
(41:30):
what are they both not getting?How is it hurt? And what is
it they do when they're hurting whenthey don't feel loved? So you scream,
you scream it hurts your partner thisway, then they scream at you.
It hurts you you scream at them. Would you look how tragic this
is for both of you. Soboth of you felt on love to begin
(41:50):
with, and both of the wayyou protest feeling unloved means that your boat
can continue feeling unloved. How sadfor both of you, And that punchline
and is really important. How sad? So I'm trying to get them to
transition from being angry screamers. Weagain, the we is really important,
right, we are sad. Thisis really tragic that we are both HEARDing,
(42:16):
and no matter what we both tryand do to get out of it,
we both make things worse. Thatshift from both of them being an
eye consciousness to we consciousness, Andthis is actually really sad for both of
us. That literally changes their wholebiology, that takes them from a threatened
(42:36):
limbic system to a like a softenedlimbic system that is actually in the pain
of not being loved. So that'sthe crazy thing, is the most like
it seems so simple. It doesn'treally matter what the couple's fighting about or
how they fight. It just mattersif you can get them to go from
(42:57):
these two separate stories of their bothnot getting the love they need to and
they're pissed about it too. We'reboth not getting the love we need and
not just two separate sadness, butwe are in shared sadness for how disconnected
we are, and both are Theways we try and make things better just
makes things worse. That that's actuallythe first key transformational experience that I have
(43:22):
to get. When I say Ihave to get that, I'm gonna,
you know, be a pit bullwith a lockjaw to try and have a
couple experience. Do you find youbring your therapeautic mindset or your your your
your mental health psychological mindset everywhere withyou through other parts of life, you
(43:45):
know, whether it's the drive throughthe grocery store or dealing with family or
whatever. Or are you able tosort of comprom compartmentalize here I am a
therapist. In everywhere else I amsimply a human. Well, so I
get like I don't know, welllike in one way, yes, right,
The clearest way yes, is Idon't have a right to talk to
(44:06):
anyone. I think if a therapistswere similar to vampires, right, if
you're familiar with vampire mythology, right, you have to invite a vampire into
your house otherwise they can't come in. And so like in everyday light,
like I'm not I'm not like goinginside people. I'm not becoming them and
(44:28):
then re enacting who I think theyare. Right, Um, you know,
no, I'm not doing any ofthat stuff with people now if someone
is having it again, like thekey transformational thing that I do is I
empathize with people. Right, Solike if I'm like recently I met some
felon a parking lot that someone triedto fight with him, and I had
(44:50):
a similar canoe to the person thattried to fight with him, So he
was all pissed and angry with me, and so yeah, like what am
I gonna do? I'm going toempathize with that person, right. But
that's like, Look, I don'tthink when I'm in the therapy room,
I'm not any different than the wayI am in the world, because again,
(45:10):
I think of myself as you knowwhat's called a wounded healer, you
know, the wounded healer archetype.If I want to have people have access
to their healing part, their owninternal healing parts, then I have to
have as much access to my ownwounded parts, because if I'm only a
healer, there's nothing but the clientto be but a wounded person because I've
(45:30):
sucked up all the healer energy inthe conversation. So I'm I'm just not
very different as a therapist and ahuman outside of the therapy room. The
only difference would be, like Isaid, like therapy is easy because I
(45:52):
have a right. These people actuallyask me to be a consultant to their
process and they want to guide andhave some inputum whereas in everyday life,
like I just don't. I'm notgoing to insert myself in people's process,
(46:13):
right. I learned that pretty earlyon. If there's a couple of fighting
in a restaurant, it's not I'mnot going to be like, oh you
guys, your boat, hurting yourboot, not feeling mad. Look how
tragic this is for both of you. Even if it's right that you know,
you know it would be it couldhelp them tremendously. You know,
I haven't been invited to like participatein their in their life, right,
(46:35):
So um yeah, so yeah,So I really don't think of myself as
any different between the therapy room andwho I am as a person and the
rest of life. I mean rightthere, like I don't know how to
becoming First the therapist and then anassessment clinician changed things about me, changed
(46:58):
how I see the world, howI function in the world for the better,
and I can. I can andhave sat in a room with a
serial killer chit chatting and trading dadjokes and seeing a different facet of this
person. That doesn't make us friends, and it doesn't make us it's not
(47:19):
it's not an even relationship because thereare still roles inherent in it. But
it allows me, you know,you tap into that empathy. That word
empathy that we start at the showis that there is still a human here
and there's ways to tap into thehumanness of someone. And ever it's not
often on the outside. It's notlike I don't wear a shirt that says
(47:40):
like a psychologist here I am,you know. But but once in a
while, if people know who Iam and what I've done for work or
what I do, they'll be like, oh, you are you diagnosing me?
And my answers, well, Imight now, but no, no,
that's not like you're not paying metoo. That's a that's a transactional
into consent based right position that No, I'm just trying to live my life.
(48:05):
And so when I've needed a therapy, I've hired a therapist. When
my kids have needed therapy, ormy husband and I or whatever, you
hire someone else, you don't cometo me for it. And so it
does change how I live through theworld, how I move through the world.
I'm less blamey and judge. Ithink because I'm able to sort of
understand that there's something going on thatI'm missing that I'm not seeing. And
(48:29):
so I'm seeing a certain behavior ina person, that doesn't mean I'm seeing
the whole picture. And that's importantand I cultivate that and I want to
carry that with me. But I'mI'm always me. I'm not always a
therapist, right, if you werenot a therapist, what would you do
for work? I mean, that'sthe thing. I don't know if I'm
(48:52):
good enough at anything else. Luckily, you know, I always say I
had to be I had to findsomething I was good enough good at,
and just a couple's therapy seems tobe something I'm good at. But I
would like to being a professional rugbyplayer. I'd like to perform on Broadway.
(49:15):
The other thing I'm most passionate aboutpersonally is bitcoin. Like bitcoin,
so I often, you know,you know, help communicate the wisdom of
bitcoin, which I'm I'm not atechnology person, so I'm not qualified too.
But but these would be the youknow, they're the other things I
(49:36):
love. Ocean canoeing, that's mypassion my daily life. I do twenty
hours a week of you know,training for competitive at rigor canoe racing here
in Hawaii. I could do that. It's interesting, did you say,
though, that you're not good enoughat them to do them? Were you
good enough at being a therapist rightfrom the start? Well, my journey
(50:00):
he is probably a little bit differentthan lots right that. You know,
So my mum's a therapist, mydad's a therapist, my sister's a therapist,
and I always kind of knew Iwas probably gonna end up in a
therapist, but I went a differentpath, like I was like the dark
sheep of the family. I becamea stockbroker, became a stock option specialist,
(50:21):
and then eventually in my mid thirties, I moved to Esselyn And if
you're familiar with essel and Esla it'slike the Harvard the self development movement.
It's where all the greatest you know, existential experiential psychotherapists and Eastern philosophy and
dance and improv teachers from around theworld would go and big sir, and
(50:45):
I got to live there for ayear and a half and I studied and
practiced experiential psychotherapy and improvisation for tenyear years, you know, with the
greatest teachers in the world. BeforeI ever sat as a therapist with a
(51:07):
client. So like, I don'twant to sound obnoxis and I say this
right, like, yeah, itwas very good from the very beginning.
But again, but don't get mewrong, because before I sat with clients,
Like I'm a little obsessive as aperson, and right now I'm obsessed
with ocean paddling. But you know, for I was obsessed with understanding how
(51:29):
to be an experiential psychotherapist. Butthis is what's interesting, you know,
you're like, I did it incommunity, Like if if any of your
listeners are familiar with Esselin, likeit was a way of life the whole
premise. You lived in this communityon the cliffs and big Serve with natural
hot springs, and we live justshul Therapy twenty four seven. Right,
(51:55):
so, um just complete emerged intostudy of self and relationship with others and
then true you know, improve likeart, singing, dancing, music,
then being able to express yourself effectively. It's to me, there's just there's
(52:17):
something about there are a lot ofthings that I'm not good enough to do
professionally right now, but I believeI could get there if I wanted to.
Yeah, I just don't always wantto, yeah, you know.
And so it's it's helpful to havea couple of things in the back pocket
that i've Yeah, let's let's trythat. Let's let's do this thing.
(52:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.Well, look I love I love.
I love all those things I said. I get to do because I'm passionate
about them. I'm very fortunate,you know, like as a I practice
couples therapy because I am passionate aboutit. I love it, and the
process improves every session. I getto grow as the person. So yeah,
(53:05):
I'm you know, I the factthat giving couples therapy just is it
adds so much value to the world, right, like one couple at a
time. Right, It's um.And then it helps me be a better
person, you know, it helpsre I learned so much about myself and
my own relationship. I get intouch with so much gratitude for my life.
(53:30):
I sit with other people, Ialways think it's it's unbelievable that I
get paid to do something that isso good for me. Right, it's
just incredible, Like it's just sonourishing on so many levels, it's pretty
amazing. Every episode, I pullthe title from something the guest has said,
(53:59):
so during the process of recording,I have a notebook in front of
me, and I write down boththe time stamps of when people make noises
in the background here when we talkover each other, and ideas for the
title. And I went with theone that I went with about something that
is incredibly right, because I feltlike that better encapsulated the feeling of the
(54:25):
full episode. But I almost wentwith the phrase that he used early in
the recording. Empathy is expensive,because man, it is. It is
sometimes financially expensive. We don't valuetherapy enough in our society, and so
(54:51):
there are some huge roadblocks for peopleto access it, and sometimes the people
who need it the most can affordit the least, and that's that's not
great. It's not good, butit's also expensive in terms of expenditure of
(55:13):
effort and focus and time and practice. And I like that that Figs really
acknowledges that about how much effort ittook to get good at the thing he's
good at. Like that's really important. So Figgs, thank you so much
(55:37):
for coming to play. It wasgreat to me, and thank you guys
for listening. It's been a thousanddegrees and Muggie, but do you know
what. I'm so excited about beingable to notice heavy, difficult recording setup
(56:00):
rather than oh God, guys,I'm so sick, because it means I'm
less sick than I was. I'mstill on the pick line. I'm still
not able to reliably maintain enough caloriesand hydration on my own, but I'm
getting there. There's there's significant progressthat is happening, and I physically feel
(56:28):
better, which means I'm mentally feelingbetter. So thank you for hanging out
with me through this journey. Andlet's just cross the fingers and toes and
eyes and everything, cross everything thatI continue to improve because I miss you,
guys, and I miss doing this. I hope you're taking good care
(56:51):
of yourselves as well, and I'llbe back as soon as i'm able to.
You matter, m h st
Before you click the share button.Get the Facts from a comedy podcast for
information enthusiasts and don't wreck Yourself.Mad and Ryan look into claims they find
online, answer your questions and saybad words. Keep in mind our target
audience, So if you're driving bya middle school and you see a bunch
of kids outside, look for theones smoking cigarettes under the bleachers and tell
(00:20):
them about our podcasts. New episodesgo up every Tuesday. Wherever you find
podcasts, be sure to check yourself. Don't wreck yourself. This podcast involves
topics such as violence, sex,and mental illness. If this might disturb
you or those around you, pleasereconsider it's okay. Privacy and confidentiality have
(00:43):
been protected, with personal information removedwhen possible. If you ever feel unsafe
or suicidal, please call your localcrisis center, emergency services, or a
national hotline. In the US,the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is eight hundred
seven three eight two five five.You matter, Hey, this is Kate.
(01:14):
How do you get good at somethingand then how do you let yourself
admit that you're good at it?It's harder than you think, Like,
I don't know if you're a mediocrewhite guy maybe everything comes easy to you,
but for the rest of us itcan be a struggle. When we
(01:36):
have ideas and goals and hobbies anddreams, whether it's career based or hobby
based, whatever, it can bereally hard to get good at it.
And sometimes it doesn't matter all thatmuch. You know, I'm not good
(01:59):
at gymnastics, never have been.My whole life, never turned to cartwheel.
That's okay. I've never lost ajob over it or whatever. I've
absorbed with that about myself and wemove on. And it's just as well
now because medically I'm not supposed todo that kind of thing. But I
was really good at being a forensicpsychologist doing assessments, at connecting with people.
(02:31):
I'm really good at connecting with peoplestill. Now I'm really good at
knitting. I've created some stuff I'mreally proud of. I can say that
now I'm pretty solid in it.But that took practice all by itself.
(02:51):
Just saying I'm good at things tookpractice because in our society, women aren't
especially encouraged to admit when we're goodat things or to take compliments. But
next level is I wasn't a goodpsychologist upfront. It took work my first
(03:14):
knitting project we still have. Wecall it the Ugly Blanket, and we
call it that for a reason.So sometimes it matters more than others,
right, And if you work,as say, for instance, a therapist,
(03:35):
it matters a lot. You reallyneed to put your heart and soul
into it. I'm not great attherapy, but if I had to,
if someone said you can no longerdo assessments, you can no longer work
in the er, you have todo therapy, then the type of therapy
(03:59):
I was the best stat was couplestherapy. I'm good at dealing with the
dynamic between two people rather than tryingto climb inside one person's head. And
then this was the hard part forme, being patient while they worked their
stuff out. My guest today isa practicing couples therapist, also a podcaster.
(04:27):
His show is called Come Here toMe. His name is Figgs O'Sullivan,
and this is one of those sortof nerd out episodes where we had
just enough in common that we geteach other's vibe and lingo and jargon when
it comes up, that sort ofthing. But he is really good at
(04:53):
couples therapy and has stayed there andfocused his efforts and his skills there.
For me, I did it becauseI had to get my degree and then
I moved on. So it givesus some dynamics to talk about and some
perspectives to examine and see, Okay, what do we have in common and
(05:18):
what are we not? Are yousure you really want to know? This
is ignorance? Was bliss? Myname is Figs O'Sullivan. I am primarily
(06:02):
a psychotherapist and I specialize in couplestherapy and I run a group psychotherapy practice
and coaching practice for individuals and coupleswith my wife. Teal is her name.
And yeah, so everything we dowith between an app, We built
(06:23):
a podcast, we have offering counselingand coaching online courses and we just try
and help people love each other.What is the name of the app on
the podcast? Well, our mainbusiness on the website is empathy with an
eye on the end, not aY on the end dot com. I
always tell people we couldn't afford empathywith a y on the end dot com.
(06:46):
Empathy is expensive. Empathy Empathy isexpensive, exactly. Um so,
so yeah, so empathy dot comis where everything is and our podcast is
called come here to Me podcast,which is an Irish expression. Compared to
me, we use a lot.And you said before I record that your
(07:08):
I mean you make your podcast superpersonal. Yes, we do. Yeah,
the first fourteen episodes or so ofthe show, my wife and I
are actually sharing our own personal we'rea couple of therapists, but we also
have shared our own personal couples therapysessions with us as the clients, and
(07:33):
you know, we would do thecouple of therapy session, watch it back,
work out what the learnings were forus, what we think would be
valuable for the audience, clip thepart of the therapy session, and put
the intro and outro. It wasa lot of work, you know,
but so so now we usually justtalk to each other and we use the
(07:58):
you know, the camera and themic and as the therapist, like you
know, because it was taking itwas two We would love to have kept
producing the podcast that particular way,but each episode was like twenty or thirty
hours of work. It was toomuch, right you know. Um,
(08:18):
well yeah, but we still westill you know, release episodes and it's
wonderful for our relationship, and youknow, the whole point of it is
to normalize, like even couples therapistssupposed experts, relationship takes work, and
you know, we have feelings andwe get in conflict with each other and
we have to repair and you know, just to actually model versus just you
(08:41):
know, tell people what to do, which I think is super important.
I mean, you know, I'ma forensic psychologist by trade, largely because
I'm terrible as a therapist. Likeas an individual therapist, you're not patient,
and you know, there's a patiencethat is required to set the pain
that pulls the client along, maybea little farther or faster than they were
(09:05):
going to but not so fast thatit makes them uncomfortable. And I don't
do that. Like I'm very sortof driven, and I like going into
work and not knowing what's going tohappen today. I like not setting benchmarks.
I don't want to say goals,because I think everybody needs goals,
but I like not setting benchmarks andmeaning like, Okay, this is what
(09:28):
I want to aim for today,and instead, you know, with forensic
work as well as I later didcrisis work, you never have any idea
what they're going to hit you upsidethe head with that day, and so
that was my thing. But Idid enjoy, out of all of the
types of therapy you have to dowhen you're going through your doctorate and you
have to do you different practica andinternships, I did enjoy couples therapy the
(09:48):
most because you're no longer operating forme inside the person's head, but you're
operating in this space between the twopeople and everyone can see it and everyone
can hear it, and there's noIt's not that there's no secrets, because
we all have them and they stillexist. But if at any point there's
(10:09):
a question of did you see whatI just saw it? Did did I
see that correctly? You can askthat in a different way, whereas when
it's individual you can say did Imisunderstand you? And they can say no,
that's it, and you're kind ofat the end, yeah, yeah,
well that's I like couples canceling formany of the reasons you just said
you don't like being an individual therapistis so always different. You can't have
(10:33):
an agenda, right The couple aregoing to, you know, take you
where they're going to take you,and you have to be able to be
present too and be willing to becomeall of the systems in the session.
And so there's you as an individual, there's each client as an individual,
(10:54):
there's the two clients together, there'syou and each individual client, and there's
the three of you together, andso you know, it's it's just a
lot to track and be present too. And it's usually activating because you know,
couples are usually in what would youcall it, you know, they're
(11:15):
feeling threatened with each other, andso it's activating we all we kind of
say, and the type of workI do with couples, all couples work
as trauma work, so there's alwaystrauma in the room. So you know,
I often compare it to I'm afirefighter that runs into five or six
burning buildings a day, and thenwhen I get into the burning building,
(11:37):
the two people that I'm trying tohelp get out of there are like they
actually want to keep pouring fire onthemselves and each other and they don't want
to leave, right, So soyeah, it's always exciting, and you
know there's just you and you cannever dial it in, right. What
part of I often compare it to, which is very I think I quite
different from a lot of therapists.I think of what I do as a
(11:58):
perform art or like being a professionalathlete, that once the bell rings or
the curtain comes up on Broadway,it doesn't matter how tired I am.
It doesn't matter how I feel like. I have to show up like a
thousand percent. And that's exhilarating.I love it, so yeah, I
(12:20):
mean it is. It is.You know. One of the things that
I like about couples therapy as wellis with an individual firstal with groups,
that's tough. I have a hardtime with groups, mostly because the people
who most often seek groups may notseek it for therapeutic reasons. They may
(12:41):
be seeking friendship, they may beseeking connection in the community, and by
definition, group therapy is not aboutthat in general. It's that you're not
supposed to go home with these peopleand check in with them because they're separate
things. This is a healing place, and maybe you learn skills to pick
(13:03):
up friends and learn social skills,but group therapy isn't it, And in
explaining that to people seems tough.It seems hard, especially because a lot
of the things that they they beingInsurance approve group for things like eating disorders
and substance abuse, and those arepotentially dangerous things to have ideas pulled together
(13:28):
about. So that was always alittle iffy, and I did and there
were some that were like you know, parenting groups. Those can be great,
very educational in nature, conflict resolutionkinds of situations where they're short term.
Those were flying. I didn't haveany problem doing those. But when
people just sort of show up likeI just want to be in therapy,
(13:52):
like, oh, oh no,you don't. You want friends. I
understand it. I want friends too, but this is not But with individual
therapy as well, to me,it always took a little while to figure
out what do we really here forand is therapy really Am I the right
(14:13):
therapist? And is therapy really theright thing for you right now at this
time in your life. But withcouples therapy, everything is very clear.
There's usually an event or an issue. I don't like the word issue because
it's sort of vanilla, but there'ssomething, there's some identical, identifiable,
(14:35):
if not tangible, then at leastclear, demonstrable thing that these people are
looking at saying that's not cool.We need help here, And that's just
a really great sort of starting place. Plus it's very clear. I always
told the people that I worked with, the couples that I work with,
specifically our first session and maybe evenour session second session. The goal is
(14:58):
not to start working on the identifiedproblem. The goal is to decide if
we should work on the identified problemat all. Because not all couples should
be together, not all relationships shouldlast forever. And let's talk about that.
Let's talk about that possibility that maybewhat we are doing is learning how
(15:20):
to safely end this relationship. Notbecause I think it's I don't have anything
preconstructed in my head that this ishow it's going to be, but just
to sort of put that on thetable for people, that this is an
option that we don't like to talkabout. And it's a lot of people
when they show up for a coupleof therapy, they're saying, no,
no, I'm here to fix everything. I want to be together forever.
(15:41):
And it's like, well, okay, I accept that as a that's a
valid goal, but let's talk aboutthe fact that some relationships are not safe
to be in and some can't sustainAnd I just I like the clarity and
the openness of that. And thenyou kind of go from there, let
me see from there. And sothat's just I don't know if that's a
(16:06):
thing for everybody, but I likethe ability to be very clear and very
open and very direct and to havethat immediate feedback loop. I hear you,
Yeah, I mean you know itwouldn't be you know, I hear
what you're saying. To leave it. Oh, like, make sure people
know that not being together as anoption. You know. What I would
(16:30):
say is in an idea world,I try not to be the person that
brings in, you know, likethat as a potential outcome. Right at
last, the people first, whatis it that you know, the couple,
what is it that they would liketo achieve or accomplish? And it's
not for me to actually direct themtowards, you know, an outcome like
(16:59):
one of you know what, whyI look at my role as a couple
OF's therapist as I'm a process consultant, So I am a process to I'm
a consultant to their process, butI'm not a creator of their process.
I would fully agree with I mean, i'd have said it correctly that it's
never about my agenda with the couple, But I always felt like it was
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important and unique within couples therapy thatI could say this is on the table
as well. You know this elephantthat's in the room that we don't talk
about in many other situations. Youknow that is a possibility. And if
we reach a consensus that that's thedirection this needs to head in, I
can still be a part of that. I can still help safely end as
(17:51):
amicably as possible a relationship that isn'tworking. It's not up to me one
way or another, because we allknow they're gonna go home and they're gonna
do what they want to do.And so it's more about the just the
opportunity to be maybe more transparent thanI can be one on one. I
hear you. That makes sense whatyou're saying. Do you get feedback from
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people along the lines of what doyou mean you had to go to therapy?
Aren't you a therapist? Why wouldyou need to go to therapy?
No? I don't. I haven'theard that, but I could imagine some
people could think like that. Butthis is where like it's a good you
know, there's a instead of thinkingabout therapy is just something inside the medical
(18:38):
model that people do because there's somethingwrong. I like to think of therapy
is a vehicle that brings people intotheir aliveness. Right, It's just one
vehicle. Well, like dance wouldbring people into their aliveness poetry, I
don't know whatever inspires you, andtherapy is just a way to be curious
(19:03):
about yourself, notice what you're feeling, thinking what you're sensing, and actually
be present to it and alive insideof that. And then of course with
a couple that they both could bepresent to their own moment to moment experience
inside of themselves, but also whatthat experiences that they're co creating with each
other. And like that in andof itself has inherent value. To become
(19:29):
more of yourself, to know moreof your partner, and to become more
of who you are together. It'sjust inherently valuable, right. It's not
because there's something wrong with you ortrying to fix something. It's like why
make a pot and pottery class?Right, Like, sure you could do
(19:49):
it so that you could pour milkin it, but it might be just
inherently valuable to get to be youand create a posh even if it has
it's never used again. Right,So I look at there like I think
of myself as a crassperson. I'man artist and that my medium is I
(20:10):
help people have experiences, transformational experienceswhere they get to become more truly themselves
and in that process they yeah,they grow as a person. But I
don't see sick people. It won'tbe very clear. I don't think of
myself, I don't think of myclients as patients. So so, yeah,
(20:33):
I get it. If someone thinksthat therapy is something that's sick.
People do write people that they havea problem and they need to go see
someone inside the medical model for help, which of course that exists, then
the question would make sense. Whywould you need therapy but doesn't know what
therapy means to me or the way. Yeah. Again, like I see
(20:56):
anybody that comes to see me,right, they're not sick, They're just
regular people like my human Yeah,exactly, exactly. Has there been times
during your marriage that you have notbeen in therapy? Yeah? Yeah,
I mean, oh absolutely, Yeah, so sort of an anora and the
reason that I asked that. SoI've been I've been married twenty two and
(21:21):
change years now, and we've hadboth we've had times where we're not therapy
and times where we are, andnot all of the times that we have
been like I can think of twospecifically that come to mind, and one
where there was a problem and wehad kind of fallen into some habits that
weren't real healthy for each other andwe just we needed to talk it out.
(21:44):
And it was never a hey,this is over kind of feeling.
It would a hey, let's notlet this get to the point where it's
over kind of feeling. So thatto me feels like what most people think
of when they think of therapy islike something is either broken or on the
job. Let's let's fix it.And there was a time where that's what
we needed and that was a reallyshort term for us. We were only
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maybe maybe three months about in thetherapy because really it was sort of just
a realignment and it was a comingback together and reidentifying what our priorities were,
you know, because if you know, I've said to my husband many
times, I'm not the person youmarried, and nor should I be.
(22:30):
You know, he married a twentytwo year old girl kid basically, and
now I'm forty five. There shouldbe things that are different. We've we've
had a lot of life in betweennow and then and so it's like a
tune up that one another time thatwe were in therapy. Nothing between us
(22:52):
had gone wrong. My husband andI were no actually was. It was
about two weeks after the of ourthird child, and so there was a
lot to celebrate, and there wasa lot of good going on, except
I had spent eight ten of thosedays in a comma. I had a
near death experience after the birth ofour child. And when I came out
of the comma, I had almostcomplete word aphasia, so I couldn't identify
(23:18):
simple obviously. I couldn't speak.I didn't remember people's names. I didn't
remember my own name. I hadinitially complete, almost complete amnesia. I
still have a retrograde amnesia for theyear leading up to the birth. I
just don't I've read my old blog, I've seen photos. I'm like,
oh, yeah, that was atrip to Paris that I took. Looks
like fun. I wish I wasthere, you know. And I was
(23:42):
still in the ICU. I hadcome out of the comma kind of against
all odds, and they had justtaken out the feeding tube and the ventilator,
and I remember one of the firstsentences that I said to my husband
as we need therapy. I couldn'teven articulate why at that point, but
what I could understand on a fundamentallevel was this everything has changed, and
(24:04):
not necessarily in a bad way,but we could use some help rather than
it being just us figuring all ofthis out all by ourselves. And I'm
still deeply grateful that he got itand he didn't take it personally and that
was sort of his job because Iwas in the hospital for another six weeks
so it was a while before wewere able to start. But he didn't
(24:26):
take that as me saying like I'mbroken, You're broken, everybody's broken.
Everything sucks and we're done. Hegot it is yeah, yeah, I
don't know what to do either.Let's try that. So I just I
feel like, and I know thatI had people at the time kind of
look look askew at me a littlebit about well, but you're you're you're
(24:48):
a psychologist, can't you just fixit? And I'm like, well,
doctors get sick, right, andthey know just they see doctors. So
it's like, I don't understand whyI'm supposed to be able to hand everything
completely. Then the reason I becamea psychologist because I believe in it,
because I believe in the concept ofbeing a better human being, and I
(25:11):
believe in the idea of tapping inwhether you feel unwell or not. We
go for annual physicals, why don'twe go for frequent checkups on therapy to
make sure? Right, Yeah,that makes sense. What kind of referrals
do you get typically when you sayreferrals, what do you mean? Just
(25:32):
to make sure I understand the question. How when people walk into your office,
under what circumstances do they do?So? Yeah, so we again,
like we primarily see couples, andwe primarily see couples, you know,
professional typically professional couples, and soyou know, they're they're working on
(25:53):
trying how to make a busy lifeschedule work, and how to stay connected
to each other. Had to behad to keep attending to the relationship while
also being parents, for example,or one person has to work eighty hours
a week. How does the otherperson in the relationship, You know,
(26:15):
they're not particularly happy that they don'treally have a spouse, right, so,
just like they would be examples.Sometimes there's been an affair of course,
you know, or other type ofbetrayal, like that, you know,
for people who are thinking, ohmaybe maybe we could go to therapy,
you know what kind of time commitmentand what's it like. Well,
(26:37):
so we typically see you know,we'd usually to see someone once a week
for sixty minutes a session. Andin an ideal world, the person would
be done within six months. Theperson in the couple would be done within
six months. And when I saydone, like they've gone through a process
(27:00):
of being able to understand what theirsystem is that they co create with each
other, be able to de escalatetheir nervous system limbic systems when they get
in conflict, and they be ableto feel more connected to each other and
ask after that very important, afterthat, be able to ask vulnerably for
(27:25):
one's needs to be met and showup and meet the needs of another.
And then once we've kind of gonethrough all of that, and a couple
can do all of that, thenthey can pretty much handle whatever life throws
at them. Are you still intherapy? When you say am I in
therapy? You mean me personally?You and your wife? Are you still?
Know? You are not? So? Nor are my husband and I.
(27:51):
Now, how did you know thatyou could fly solo? Well?
Look let me. Just like youknow when you ask how do we know
we could fly solo? I guessthis is where like, look, we
could have flien solo beforehand? Letme in some ways you could think about
what I do in therapy and whatmy wife and I try and do is
(28:15):
that we want to be more conscious. And what does that mean? More
conscious? Is that the simplest definitionof conscious is it's like something to be
something that is conscious, right.It is not like something to be the
table. It is like something tobe a human being. And I want
(28:36):
to be as close as possible tobeing a human being and as far away
as possible from being a table.And it's very simple. The better you
can answer that question what is itlike to be me? And the better
I can know what is it liketo be you? What is it like
to be us? And what therapyis? It's just a gym that you
(29:00):
go to to get even better atbeing able to answer just this one simple
question, what is it like tobe me? Right? And then of
course we can expand that question.Then if you get good, if you
get really good at answering the questionwhat is it like to be me?
You will have everything you need toactually understand and hopefully experience, right,
(29:22):
what is it like to be otherpeople? And then you combine those two
things together, you should have allthe material then to expand again into what
is it like to be the systemthat me and this other person co create
with each other. So so look, that's an ongoing process, right,
there's so much. You know,anyone that told you they know what it's
(29:47):
like to be them at any momentin time is having a laugh, right,
Like I have certain things I've accessto and I'm conscious of. But
so yeah, again, so that'slike there be just to expand one's ability
to be to answer that one question, what's it like to be me?
What's it like to be you?What's it like to be us together?
(30:08):
And then look we have we're attachmentfocused therapist, so we see absolutely everything
through the lens of attachment. Rightthat you know the most famous quota bet
attachment. We're all subjected. Itneeds to be attached slash emotionally bonded from
the cradle to the grave. Sowe're trying to help people fundamentally become more
(30:30):
conscious, but then help them understandwhat is attachment theory and then be able
to see their own feelings, thoughts, and actions and those of other people
in the world, especially they're significantother, you know, in themselves through
an attachment lens. Because once westart to understand attachment and we see what
(30:52):
we feel, do and think throughan attachment lens, everybody makes sense.
Everybody always makes sense. And thenthat changes everything, right, because then
we open up these pathways to haveempathy and compassion for ourself, our partner,
and dare I say it everybody inthe world, it's it's a practice,
(31:14):
right, rather than as a practiceexactly. Yeah, we practice therapy
in the way that people say practicemedicine in the say it's never done,
you're learning your whatever. They're justvery different things because medicine is a medical
model and a model of breakage anda model of something's wrong, and therapy
is more about we're going to practicefeeling more censured or more grounded, or
(31:40):
more yourself or whatever, you know, whatever sort of vocabulary works if people
come to therapy, because most ofyeah, look, most of the people
are going to come to a coupleof canceling because they think something is wrong.
But the thing that they think iswrong is actually a doorway or a
pathway to something that is incredibly right. Right. So, when a couple
is having a harder time with eachother, the reason they're having a hard
(32:02):
time with each other is their bodelonging for getting their deepest love needs,
emotional bonding needs met. It's nota woo woo thing. It's like when
you were born. If there wasn'ta good enough other on the other side
of your death, you'd be dead. Our bodies are built to detect is
my person there, and if they'renot there, you're facing an existential threat.
(32:27):
Now you may think you're not ababy anymore. You don't cry out
because your partner isn't here. You'renot crying out because it looks like they're
disappointed in you. But whether youhave conscious access to it or not,
your body is still really distressed.When it looks like your person no longer
your mother or you're you know,whoever looked after you growing up, but
you're primary romantic partner, significant other. When it looks like they're not there
(32:52):
for you, you're actually facing ahuge biological, physiological moment of distress.
And you protest because you're a humanbeing. We all protest. Whether you're
a blamer shut or downer, explainer, minimizer, defender, joker, you
know, run away or everybody doessomething, but of course your thing that
(33:15):
you do will now tell your significantother that they're not being loved the way
they long to be. And sonow they're about to experience an existential threat.
Whether they're conscious of it or not, that's the way their body will
take it. And now they're goingto hurt, feel threatened, and they'll
protest, and of course their protestswill confirm for you you're not being loved
(33:37):
the way you need to. Andso now you'll definitely protest the more,
which of course is going to threatenyour significant others some more. They're going
to be hurt, slash threatened,and they're going to have even more grounds
to double down or triple down ontheir type of protest. And that is
what happens between all systems of peoplethat love each other right, love each
(34:00):
other slash are important to each otherright that they both actually get threatened when
it looks like let's say a systemof two people, they get threatened when
it looks like we're not there foreach other the way we long for each
other to be there for each other'sthreatening, and then we bothe protests and
ways that threatens each other even more. And so the most important thing to
(34:22):
do when I work with a coupleis to help them see the system right
that they're bode co creating with eachother. And if we can help them
see that system and see that it'sreally happening because each other's love is so
important to each other. Now wego from being two threatened organisms to two
(34:43):
sad organisms, but two sad organismsthat aren't a threat to each other,
and then they can love, comfortand suit each other. In your I
don't know whether it's experience, youropinion, you can decide. Are all
relationships salvageable? No, I don't. I think they're all salvageable, But
I think the best way to discoverif it is salable. I think ninety
(35:06):
nine percent of them are salvageable.I think the person you're with is no
accident that you chose the person you'rewith. It's no accident they chose you.
You're trying to resolve something, andyour conflict is just the mat the
outward painful manifestation of both of youtrying to complete a missing experience, and
your organisms want to complete this missingexperience. Well, let's try and complete
(35:29):
the missing experience. If we doit in the best way we know with
science and the best psychotherapeutic models thatwe have available, and we fail,
that's brilliant data to now make yourdecision about whether we're going to actually be
able to salvage this relationship or not. But again, just like, how
(35:49):
do we know your car is goingto be able to run? Again?
What we try and make it run? And again if we fail to make
it run? Yeah, hey,listen, you can go to another mechanic.
But look, you read the use. You saw the methods I use,
Like, I don't know, youdecide, Like, I'm going to
give them the data to then decide. But I always say, I'm like
(36:10):
a pit bull with a lockjaw.I'm going to make sure that there's no
way they could leave all. Let'ssay they weren't able to salvage it in
their minds, it's not going tobe because we didn't try every single thing
to make it work. So I'mgoing to keep trying. What are things
(36:32):
that you would try? Well,again, you know the most important thing
is we have to be able tobe like three scientists and understand what is
the system we're both co creating witheach other that takes the two of us.
We both get hurt, we bothhave love needs, we both have
ways of protesting. We both thinkthe way we protest is actually our character
(36:53):
or personality. It's not what itis, but it's a secondary creation to
protect and help the most vulnerable partof you survive in the world. Both
of you are at it so asevery other human being. And if we
can help them firstly see and seethe logic of their system and then really
really get that there are two incrediblyvulnerable human beings here that are just protesting,
(37:17):
fighting for their life to try notto get hurt. And then we
can actually drop them into the experienceof that where they have a lot of
empathy and compassion for each other.The same problem exists, but they both
are so completely changed as individuals thatthey are either I'm going to march them
to the threshold of that experience wherethey it would be safe to share their
(37:43):
vulnerability with each other and to actuallycomfort and suit each other. Now,
then we'll come back to whatever thetopic is, and that's the most resource
they could be to deal whatever thetopic is. That was a big problem.
Right, So this is the problemsnever the problem. The way we
talk about the problem is the problemfully understood that you know, there's there
(38:07):
were times one of the one ofthe first couples I worked with, spoke
to each other in ways that feltjarring to me. A lot of swearing,
a lot of literal finger pointing,a lot of raised voices, that
kind of thing. And I wastwenty five at the time, twenty six
(38:29):
something like that, and so Ididn't have the full sort of ability to
realize that maybe this is just youknow, that my I hadn't worked through
my own distress at being in thepresence of raised voices and swearing and and
that kind of thing, and isto separate that out from therapy itself.
(38:50):
But so I just sort of letthem, you know, for the first
couple of sessions, let them speakhow they were going to speak. And
then you know, made tracks tomy supervisor and went, clearly, I'm
doing something wrong because these people arejust screaming at each other. And she's
like, maybe they're just screamers,Like maybe that's how they function. Listen
to what they're saying and then getto how they're saying it. Secondary,
(39:14):
like those are two Those are twoparallel situations. Both there's the what they're
saying and then there's how they're sayingit, and sort of over time realizing
that, you know, some couplesjust communicate in ways that I don't understand
or that I wouldn't be able toeffectively communicate if I was in that relationship.
But that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Well yeah, but let's just
(39:35):
say like there aren't there aren't reallyscreamers. There are people that scream when
they're not feeling mad in a particularway, And what's really happening underneath where
their look angry and they appear tobe a screamer, is there's some primary
love need that's not being mad,and they're in a lot of primary vo
(40:00):
unerable pain, and the only thingthey know to do is when when they're
being that feel that un met thatmuch on love, is to protest to
screaming and being angry. So insteadof thinking there's one person inside mister or
missus screamer and there's actually two peoplewho you see screaming is just the way
(40:24):
they've learned to protest and survive inthe world. I'm sure I'm going to
honor. I gotta honor mister ormissus screamer, right as in, like
you know, except that they areangry. This is what they do.
But I do that because I wantto earn the right to one day get
to know what is it you're notgetting and how does it hurt? Because
(40:47):
ultimately, the one that we needto help inside mister or missus screamer is
the one that I am still feelingabandoned. I'm still not a priority.
How is this happening again? Andthey're really hurting. They're having a really
hard time, right, that's theonly reason they're screaming. There are no
(41:07):
bad people in the world. Thereare no They're just doing the only thing
they know what to do. Sothis couple, I will reflect. Let's
imagine you have this couple, rightthat are both screaming at each other.
Right, Well, got to dois work out? Will help them when
I'll reflected to them at first?Right is what is try and work out
(41:30):
what are they both not getting?How is it hurt? And what is
it they do when they're hurting whenthey don't feel loved? So you scream,
you scream it hurts your partner thisway, then they scream at you.
It hurts you you scream at them. Would you look how tragic this
is for both of you. Soboth of you felt on love to begin
(41:50):
with, and both of the wayyou protest feeling unloved means that your boat
can continue feeling unloved. How sadfor both of you, And that punchline
and is really important. How sad? So I'm trying to get them to
transition from being angry screamers. Weagain, the we is really important,
right, we are sad. Thisis really tragic that we are both HEARDing,
(42:16):
and no matter what we both tryand do to get out of it,
we both make things worse. Thatshift from both of them being an
eye consciousness to we consciousness, Andthis is actually really sad for both of
us. That literally changes their wholebiology, that takes them from a threatened
(42:36):
limbic system to a like a softenedlimbic system that is actually in the pain
of not being loved. So that'sthe crazy thing, is the most like
it seems so simple. It doesn'treally matter what the couple's fighting about or
how they fight. It just mattersif you can get them to go from
(42:57):
these two separate stories of their bothnot getting the love they need to and
they're pissed about it too. We'reboth not getting the love we need and
not just two separate sadness, butwe are in shared sadness for how disconnected
we are, and both are Theways we try and make things better just
makes things worse. That that's actuallythe first key transformational experience that I have
(43:22):
to get. When I say Ihave to get that, I'm gonna,
you know, be a pit bullwith a lockjaw to try and have a
couple experience. Do you find youbring your therapeautic mindset or your your your
your mental health psychological mindset everywhere withyou through other parts of life, you
(43:45):
know, whether it's the drive throughthe grocery store or dealing with family or
whatever. Or are you able tosort of comprom compartmentalize here I am a
therapist. In everywhere else I amsimply a human. Well, so I
get like I don't know, welllike in one way, yes, right,
The clearest way yes, is Idon't have a right to talk to
(44:06):
anyone. I think if a therapistswere similar to vampires, right, if
you're familiar with vampire mythology, right, you have to invite a vampire into
your house otherwise they can't come in. And so like in everyday light,
like I'm not I'm not like goinginside people. I'm not becoming them and
(44:28):
then re enacting who I think theyare. Right, Um, you know,
no, I'm not doing any ofthat stuff with people now if someone
is having it again, like thekey transformational thing that I do is I
empathize with people. Right, Solike if I'm like recently I met some
felon a parking lot that someone triedto fight with him, and I had
(44:50):
a similar canoe to the person thattried to fight with him, So he
was all pissed and angry with me, and so yeah, like what am
I gonna do? I'm going toempathize with that person, right. But
that's like, Look, I don'tthink when I'm in the therapy room,
I'm not any different than the wayI am in the world, because again,
(45:10):
I think of myself as you knowwhat's called a wounded healer, you
know, the wounded healer archetype.If I want to have people have access
to their healing part, their owninternal healing parts, then I have to
have as much access to my ownwounded parts, because if I'm only a
healer, there's nothing but the clientto be but a wounded person because I've
(45:30):
sucked up all the healer energy inthe conversation. So I'm I'm just not
very different as a therapist and ahuman outside of the therapy room. The
only difference would be, like Isaid, like therapy is easy because I
(45:52):
have a right. These people actuallyask me to be a consultant to their
process and they want to guide andhave some inputum whereas in everyday life,
like I just don't. I'm notgoing to insert myself in people's process,
(46:13):
right. I learned that pretty earlyon. If there's a couple of fighting
in a restaurant, it's not I'mnot going to be like, oh you
guys, your boat, hurting yourboot, not feeling mad. Look how
tragic this is for both of you. Even if it's right that you know,
you know it would be it couldhelp them tremendously. You know,
I haven't been invited to like participatein their in their life, right,
(46:35):
So um yeah, so yeah,So I really don't think of myself as
any different between the therapy room andwho I am as a person and the
rest of life. I mean rightthere, like I don't know how to
becoming First the therapist and then anassessment clinician changed things about me, changed
(46:58):
how I see the world, howI function in the world for the better,
and I can. I can andhave sat in a room with a
serial killer chit chatting and trading dadjokes and seeing a different facet of this
person. That doesn't make us friends, and it doesn't make us it's not
(47:19):
it's not an even relationship because thereare still roles inherent in it. But
it allows me, you know,you tap into that empathy. That word
empathy that we start at the showis that there is still a human here
and there's ways to tap into thehumanness of someone. And ever it's not
often on the outside. It's notlike I don't wear a shirt that says
(47:40):
like a psychologist here I am,you know. But but once in a
while, if people know who Iam and what I've done for work or
what I do, they'll be like, oh, you are you diagnosing me?
And my answers, well, Imight now, but no, no,
that's not like you're not paying metoo. That's a that's a transactional
into consent based right position that No, I'm just trying to live my life.
(48:05):
And so when I've needed a therapy, I've hired a therapist. When
my kids have needed therapy, ormy husband and I or whatever, you
hire someone else, you don't cometo me for it. And so it
does change how I live through theworld, how I move through the world.
I'm less blamey and judge. Ithink because I'm able to sort of
understand that there's something going on thatI'm missing that I'm not seeing. And
(48:29):
so I'm seeing a certain behavior ina person, that doesn't mean I'm seeing
the whole picture. And that's importantand I cultivate that and I want to
carry that with me. But I'mI'm always me. I'm not always a
therapist, right, if you werenot a therapist, what would you do
for work? I mean, that'sthe thing. I don't know if I'm
(48:52):
good enough at anything else. Luckily, you know, I always say I
had to be I had to findsomething I was good enough good at,
and just a couple's therapy seems tobe something I'm good at. But I
would like to being a professional rugbyplayer. I'd like to perform on Broadway.
(49:15):
The other thing I'm most passionate aboutpersonally is bitcoin. Like bitcoin,
so I often, you know,you know, help communicate the wisdom of
bitcoin, which I'm I'm not atechnology person, so I'm not qualified too.
But but these would be the youknow, they're the other things I
(49:36):
love. Ocean canoeing, that's mypassion my daily life. I do twenty
hours a week of you know,training for competitive at rigor canoe racing here
in Hawaii. I could do that. It's interesting, did you say,
though, that you're not good enoughat them to do them? Were you
good enough at being a therapist rightfrom the start? Well, my journey
(50:00):
he is probably a little bit differentthan lots right that. You know,
So my mum's a therapist, mydad's a therapist, my sister's a therapist,
and I always kind of knew Iwas probably gonna end up in a
therapist, but I went a differentpath, like I was like the dark
sheep of the family. I becamea stockbroker, became a stock option specialist,
(50:21):
and then eventually in my mid thirties, I moved to Esselyn And if
you're familiar with essel and Esla it'slike the Harvard the self development movement.
It's where all the greatest you know, existential experiential psychotherapists and Eastern philosophy and
dance and improv teachers from around theworld would go and big sir, and
(50:45):
I got to live there for ayear and a half and I studied and
practiced experiential psychotherapy and improvisation for tenyear years, you know, with the
greatest teachers in the world. BeforeI ever sat as a therapist with a
(51:07):
client. So like, I don'twant to sound obnoxis and I say this
right, like, yeah, itwas very good from the very beginning.
But again, but don't get mewrong, because before I sat with clients,
Like I'm a little obsessive as aperson, and right now I'm obsessed
with ocean paddling. But you know, for I was obsessed with understanding how
(51:29):
to be an experiential psychotherapist. Butthis is what's interesting, you know,
you're like, I did it incommunity, Like if if any of your
listeners are familiar with Esselin, likeit was a way of life the whole
premise. You lived in this communityon the cliffs and big Serve with natural
hot springs, and we live justshul Therapy twenty four seven. Right,
(51:55):
so, um just complete emerged intostudy of self and relationship with others and
then true you know, improve likeart, singing, dancing, music,
then being able to express yourself effectively. It's to me, there's just there's
(52:17):
something about there are a lot ofthings that I'm not good enough to do
professionally right now, but I believeI could get there if I wanted to.
Yeah, I just don't always wantto, yeah, you know.
And so it's it's helpful to havea couple of things in the back pocket
that i've Yeah, let's let's trythat. Let's let's do this thing.
(52:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.Well, look I love I love.
I love all those things I said. I get to do because I'm passionate
about them. I'm very fortunate,you know, like as a I practice
couples therapy because I am passionate aboutit. I love it, and the
process improves every session. I getto grow as the person. So yeah,
(53:05):
I'm you know, I the factthat giving couples therapy just is it
adds so much value to the world, right, like one couple at a
time. Right, It's um.And then it helps me be a better
person, you know, it helpsre I learned so much about myself and
my own relationship. I get intouch with so much gratitude for my life.
(53:30):
I sit with other people, Ialways think it's it's unbelievable that I
get paid to do something that isso good for me. Right, it's
just incredible, Like it's just sonourishing on so many levels, it's pretty
amazing. Every episode, I pullthe title from something the guest has said,
(53:59):
so during the process of recording,I have a notebook in front of
me, and I write down boththe time stamps of when people make noises
in the background here when we talkover each other, and ideas for the
title. And I went with theone that I went with about something that
is incredibly right, because I feltlike that better encapsulated the feeling of the
(54:25):
full episode. But I almost wentwith the phrase that he used early in
the recording. Empathy is expensive,because man, it is. It is
sometimes financially expensive. We don't valuetherapy enough in our society, and so
(54:51):
there are some huge roadblocks for peopleto access it, and sometimes the people
who need it the most can affordit the least, and that's that's not
great. It's not good, butit's also expensive in terms of expenditure of
(55:13):
effort and focus and time and practice. And I like that that Figs really
acknowledges that about how much effort ittook to get good at the thing he's
good at. Like that's really important. So Figgs, thank you so much
(55:37):
for coming to play. It wasgreat to me, and thank you guys
for listening. It's been a thousanddegrees and Muggie, but do you know
what. I'm so excited about beingable to notice heavy, difficult recording setup
(56:00):
rather than oh God, guys,I'm so sick, because it means I'm
less sick than I was. I'mstill on the pick line. I'm still
not able to reliably maintain enough caloriesand hydration on my own, but I'm
getting there. There's there's significant progressthat is happening, and I physically feel
(56:28):
better, which means I'm mentally feelingbetter. So thank you for hanging out
with me through this journey. Andlet's just cross the fingers and toes and
eyes and everything, cross everything thatI continue to improve because I miss you,
guys, and I miss doing this. I hope you're taking good care
(56:51):
of yourselves as well, and I'llbe back as soon as i'm able to.
You matter, m h st
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